Round 7, FOAK: 1982 Kawie KZ550 C3 LTD Restoration Options
Biker Dude
so begins the Quest for the Unknowable Right Answer:
Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
for sustained
highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
It redlines at 20 mph in first gear, I rarely take it up to 70 mph. I
know a few less revs at highway speed in 6th gear would be a bit more
pleasant.
Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
grunt?
What say ye, oh Fount of All Knowledge? <ducking for cover>
Biker Dude
Mark Olson
> I am about to replace the chain and sprockets on this noble beast and
> so begins the Quest for the Unknowable Right Answer:
>
> Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
>
> It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
> for sustained
> highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
What criteria did you use to come to that conclusion?
> It redlines at 20 mph in first gear, I rarely take it up to 70 mph. I
> know a few less revs at highway speed in 6th gear would be a bit more
> pleasant.
Having ridden a number small displacement bikes and having owned an
82 GPz550 which had exactly the same gearing, I would disagree. If
you rarely get up to 70 mph you have no reason whatsoever to gear it
up. All you will do is make 6th gear unusable.
> Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
> revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
> grunt?
Regardless of what sprockets it currently has, replace them with
the original sizes, which is a 16T front and 38T rear. Chain is
#530, 100 links. Increasing the gearing 8 to 10 percent higher
would seriously screw up what is a nicely geared bike.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
>
> Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
It's up to you. The only way most people are satisfied with the answer
to the gearing question is experiencing what happens when they do it.
You can install a front sprocket with one tooth more (if you can find
one that fits in the space available, or install a rear sprocket with
three teeth less, and you will
usually achieve a gearing situation where sixth gear feels like it's
halfway between
sixth and an imaginary seventh gear.
If you live in flat country and you don't have to fight head winds,
you just might
like such an arrangement.
>
> It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
> for sustained highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
Oh, get real. I was talking to a guy at a motorcycle hangout and he
said that he and his "partner" frequently rode to San Francisco and
back together on his KZ550 (about 800 miles round trip) and the
biggest issue was that there was no way to carry souvenirs or
antiques ;-) home because the machine was so small.
> It redlines at 20 mph in first gear, I rarely take it up to 70 mph. I
> know a few less revs at highway speed in 6th gear would be a bit more
> pleasant.
Believe it or not, the engineers at Kawasaki *knew what they were
doing* when they selected the transmission gearing and the final drive
ratios.
A modern 4-stroke inline-four has a very short stroke in order to
reduce piston ring flutter at high RPM. Kawasaki designed their engine
in order to save wear and tear on the piston rings, so, if you're
cruising along at 5500 to 6000 RPM in sixth gear, you're NOT hurting
the engine.
If you're out on the road on a long trip and you're riding close to
the red zone on your tach for long periods, be sure to check your oil
level every day.
> Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
> revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
> grunt?
A 7.5% change in final drive ratio will generally put you right
between 6th and 7th
gears, in terms of cruising RPM.
Like i said, it depends on whether you have hils to climb or have to
battle head winds or carry a passenger. If you find that you have to
downshift two gears instead of one gear to pass a truck on a hill,
you've over-geared your final drive.
Bob Scott
>Biker Dude wrote:
>> I am about to replace the chain and sprockets on this noble beast and
>> so begins the Quest for the Unknowable Right Answer:
>>
>> Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
>>
>> It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
>> for sustained
>> highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
>
>What criteria did you use to come to that conclusion?
Sounds to me like someone has changed the gearing already.
It's more than 20 years since I rode a 550 Ltd but back then I was happy
to run it at a steady (indicated) 100mph. I've ridden a vanilla Z550 & a
GPz550 since then & they were both happy enough around 100mph.
[]
>
>> Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
>> revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
>> grunt?
>
>Regardless of what sprockets it currently has, replace them with
>the original sizes, which is a 16T front and 38T rear. Chain is
>#530, 100 links. Increasing the gearing 8 to 10 percent higher
>would seriously screw up what is a nicely geared bike.
>
I'd second that - check the gearing & if it's not standard I'd change to
standard.
--
Bob Scott
The Older Gentleman
> A modern 4-stroke inline-four has a very short stroke in order to
> reduce piston ring flutter at high RPM.
Utter nonsense.
--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F Triumph Street Triple
Suzuki TS250ER GN250 Damn, back to six bikes!
Try Googling before asking a damn silly question.
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
The Older Gentleman
> I am about to replace the chain and sprockets on this noble beast and
> so begins the Quest for the Unknowable Right Answer:
>
> Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
If you want. I wouldn't.
>
> It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
> for sustained
> highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
That's a 550 Kawasaki for you. They're all like that. I've owned a
couple and ridden many more.
>
> It redlines at 20 mph in first gear, I rarely take it up to 70 mph. I
> know a few less revs at highway speed in 6th gear would be a bit more
> pleasant.
>
> Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
> revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
> grunt?
I'd leave it stock. There isn't that much bottom end in those engines
anyway. Not much mid-range either, come to that.
And now, I will see what KrustyUS advocates. I'll expect a ream of
superfluous info about gearing.
<Checks>
Yup, thought so. At least he tells you to retain the stock gearing, so
that's three or four votes in favour and none against.
Dave Emerson
"The Older Gentleman" <totallyde...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> Yup, thought so. At least he tells you to retain the stock gearing, so
> that's three or four votes in favour and none against.
Make that 5-0
--
Dave
ex Motorcycle Maintenance Workshop
http://tinyurl.com/4mhaw
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
Gentleman Crapped In His Diaper Again) and thinking that nobody would
notice the smell, wrote:
> ??? ??? ????? ??? <macmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A modern 4-stroke inline-four has a very short stroke in order to
> > reduce piston ring flutter at high RPM.
>
> Utter nonsense.
Compared to a twin cylinder engine of equal displacement, inline-fours
*do* have a very short stroke, so they can rev up to higher RPM than
the twin, thus producing about 40% more power.
A few KZ550 specs:
Bore x Stroke: 58mm x 52.4mm
Power: 53 @ 8500
Torque: 35 @ 7000
Top Speed: n/a
RPM @ 60: 4902
Piston speed (in feet per minute) = .166 X 2.06 inches X 8500 RPM =
2913 fpm
At 7000 RPM, the piston speed is 2399 feet per minute.
At 60 mph, the engine is only turning 4902 RPM.
Piston speed is only 1700 fpm at such a relaxed cruising speed.
Now, compare what racing speed tuners say is a reasonable piston speed
for production based engines.
4500 feet per minute.
You would have to rev the KZ550 (or any engine with the same stroke)
over 13,000 RPM to reach the theoretical piston speed where piston
ring engineers started running into trouble with ring flutter. (1)
Nowadays, racing engines (like Ducati Corsa engines) are routinely
reaching piston speeds of 5000 feet per minute and consequently have
very short useful lives due to piston ring flutter exacerbated by the
low friction slipper pistons rocking in their bores.
The Norton V-8 protype engines of a decade ago were reaching piston
speeds of 5500 feet per minute...
(1) Back in the mid-1980's, Suzuki was racing their prototype
GSXR-750's in European endurance racing. They had to rev the engines
up to 13,000 RPM to get the 130 horsepower they wanted.
American roadracers drooled at the thought of getting their hands on
an engine that revved up that high and produced so much horsepower.
But the racing GSXR's had special Carillo I-beam connecting rods that
cost $1000 a set.
The production GSXR-750's that we got only had about 90 horsepower and
were RPM-limited to only about 11000 RPM because they used cheap
production connecting rods.
The Older Gentleman
> > > A modern 4-stroke inline-four has a very short stroke in order to
> > > reduce piston ring flutter at high RPM.
> >
> > Utter nonsense.
>
> Compared to a twin cylinder engine of equal displacement, inline-fours
> *do* have a very short stroke, so they can rev up to higher RPM than
> the twin, thus producing about 40% more power.
Quite right. Never said they didn't.
Short strokes equal higher revs, greater valve area, less tall engine,
and lower piston speed. Rocking of pistons in bores is nothing to do
with it.
To say that ring flutter is the reason why people use short strokes is
just daft.
<snip a raft of the usual irrelevaqnt technical stuff designed to
obscure your initial bollocks>
M.Badger
> I am about to replace the chain and sprockets on this noble beast and
> so begins the Quest for the Unknowable Right Answer:
>
> Should I change the gearing, or in this case, the sprocketing?
Nope. Yup. Maybe.
Kawasaki knew what they were doing when they came up with the gearing. It is
your bike though, so do what you want. If it makes the bike better for you,
if it makes you a happier rider, why not?
>
> It's a cute little in-town cruiser and bar hopper but it wasn't made
> for sustained
> highway riding. It's too rev-vy for that:
Even after all these years of riding Japanese middleweight fours, I am still
in awe of the engine speeds and reliability they obtain.
>
> It redlines at 20 mph in first gear, I rarely take it up to 70 mph. I
> know a few less revs at highway speed in 6th gear would be a bit more
> pleasant.
If the low first gear is a pain, set off in second.
>
> Should I give it taller gears? Would I regret reducing the crusing
> revs by about 8 or 10 percent with a corresponding loss of low gear
> grunt?
You -may- regret it. OTOH, sprockets aren't vastly expensive.
Providing it fits, try going up one tooth on the front. Ride around for a
bit. Does the bike still pull without having to drop a gear?. Next, drop
two teeth off the back.
One thing to be aware of though is you may end up at, say, 4000RPM in 3rd,
where previously you'd be at 3750RPM in 4th. Just an example, no need to
hit me with maths...
>
> What say ye, oh Fount of All Knowledge? <ducking for cover>
You won't kill the bike. You may make it better for you, you may make it
worse. If you lose instant throttle response, or find yourself flicking
twixt 5th + 6th at motorway/highway speeds, it is a minor task to restore
the gearing.
If the revs bother you, mask your rev counter :)
>
> Biker Dude
Mark Olson
> If the revs bother you, mask your rev counter :)
That is almost always the right answer when someone says their bike revs
too high on the highway.
With stock gearing, a 130/90-16 rear tire and an overall reduction
of 6.25 in 6th, the KZ550 is turning about 5000 RPM at 60 mph, which
is not high at all. Speed in 1st gear at redline is about 42 mph, so
if the OP is really only getting up to 20 mph in 1st gear at redline,
someone has *really* screwed with the gearing.
TOG@Toil
Looks that way.
They're lovely little engines, those 550s. I lost my licence on a 1984
GPz550, the first ZX model. "In excess of 118mph" it said on the
summons. The police who nicked me observed that I was actually pulling
away from them at the time, but the police car would go no faster, so
118 was the figure. The bike was indicating just under 130 at the
time.
I also took a GT550 (the shaft-driven one: did you ever get that in
the US) around France once. That had what was basically the engine
from the first GPz550H1 in it, so very whizzy but not as peaky as the
ZX. Still needed winding up, though. That would easily indicate 120mph
solo. Comfy, too: they sold zillions of the things here to despatch
riders.
The LTD is a rare beast in the UK. Generally, we don't do the cruser
thing, and those who do tend to buy ones designed as cruisers from the
ground up, rather than the bastardised roadsters that predominated in
the late 1970s/early 1980s.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
wrote:
> To say that ring flutter is the reason why people use short strokes is
> just daft.
If you don't know the *basics* of high performance ICE's, you should
just STFU.
The engineers at Honda became intimately aware of the problems of
piston ring flutter back in the early 1960's when they developed 0.5
millimeter thick piston rings for their GP racers. (1)
And Ducati has stuck with their antiquated 90 degree V-twin because of
its popularity amongst wealthy aficionados, despite the problem with
piston ring flutter exacerbated by piston rocking.
You just aren't a technically informed as you think you are. Do try
and keep up,
M'kay?
(1) When Wiseco made pistons that could be fitted with those thin
rings back in the mid-1960's, I installed a set of them in my Yamaha
250cc cafe racer. However, street riding didn't require really high
RPM performance, so thinner rings just didn't make any difference for
my application.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> Speed in 1st gear at redline is about 42 mph, so
> if the OP is really only getting up to 20 mph in 1st gear at redline,
> someone has *really* screwed with the gearing.
OTOH, the OP may just be noticing that his transmission has a rather
"low" first gear, compared to the other five gears.
M.Badger
> On 24 Nov, 10:59, Mark Olson <ols...@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>> M.Badger wrote:
>> > If the revs bother you, mask your rev counter :)
>>
>> That is almost always the right answer when someone says their bike revs
>> too high on the highway.
>>
>> With stock gearing, a 130/90-16 rear tire and an overall reduction
>> of 6.25 in 6th, the KZ550 is turning about 5000 RPM at 60 mph, which
>> is not high at all. Speed in 1st gear at redline is about 42 mph, so
>> if the OP is really only getting up to 20 mph in 1st gear at redline,
>> someone has *really* screwed with the gearing.
>
> Looks that way.
Yebbut the rear sprocket must be the size of a dinnerplate to drop it -that-
much. I suspect the OP may just not be used to how much these little fours
rev.
>
> They're lovely little engines, those 550s. I lost my licence on a 1984
> GPz550, the first ZX model. "In excess of 118mph" it said on the
> summons. The police who nicked me observed that I was actually pulling
> away from them at the time, but the police car would go no faster, so
> 118 was the figure. The bike was indicating just under 130 at the
> time.
I rather liked the UniTrak GPz550. A good looking, sweet handling bike for
the time. ISTR it thrived on revs. Really came alive in the upper 3rd of
the rev range.
>
> I also took a GT550 (the shaft-driven one: did you ever get that in
> the US) around France once. That had what was basically the engine
> from the first GPz550H1 in it, so very whizzy but not as peaky as the
> ZX. Still needed winding up, though. That would easily indicate 120mph
> solo. Comfy, too: they sold zillions of the things here to despatch
> riders.
Our works pool bike for despatching was a GT750. Wretched looking thing, but
would run flat out on Motorways day in, day out, screaming the 'nads off it
without complaint. As it was the pool bike, it was subjected to the sort of
outright abuse that we wouldn't mete out to our own precious steeds.
Thrashing them when they've warmed up doesn't kill them. Lack of oil
changes and thrashing from cold probably would. No matter what we did, it
steadfastly refused to die.
We treated it to a can of beer when it reached 100,000 miles. Well, we
poured a can of beer over it. It was 18 months old, so it was kind of its
18th birthday too!
Mark Olson
This is an exact quote from the OP: "It redlines at 20 mph in first
gear".
Sure, 1st is lower than the rest of the gears. I've had a look at the
gear ratios for that model and unless someone has lowered the final
drive gearing from 2.37:1 to about 5:1 he's exaggerating by quite a bit,
or his speedometer and/or tachometer aren't working right.
My guess is he was just throwing out a WAG and hasn't actually run it
up to redline in 1st while carefully watching the speedometer and
tachometer. None of that matters, if he's replacing the chain and
sprockets it would be best to simply start with the stock sizes and not
worry about how fast his engine is turning at highway speeds. That
engine has no problem running 6000 RPM or more all day long.
Mark Olson
> I rather liked the UniTrak GPz550. A good looking, sweet handling bike for
> the time. ISTR it thrived on revs. Really came alive in the upper 3rd of
> the rev range.
I _loved_ mine. http://www.visi.com/~olsonm/GPz550.jpg Very comfy rear
suspension for a little bike, the Uni-Trak was very supple over small
bumps.
M.Badger
Looking at that, a couple of things come to mind. Firstly, what a good
looking bike it was, and still is.
Secondly, it looks 'together', and finally, my ( rather crap ) arbiter. When
I park a bike up and walk away from it, do I turn and look at it again?.
My current Bandit?, yes, every time. My XJ650?, yes, every time ( ged, I
miss that bike ). My SD900?, hell, I'll park that and just stare at it!. My
old TransAlp?, sometimes. When I had an ER-5, or an XJ750 or the ZG1000
Concours?. Can't say I ever did.
That GPz would always get a second glance as I walked away.
TOG@Toil
> On Nov 23, 11:31 pm, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (A Stupid Cunt)
> wrote:
>
> > To say that ring flutter is the reason why people use short strokes is
> > just daft.
>
> If you don't know the *basics* of high performance ICE's, you should
> just STFU.
I do. You don't. Ring flutter is *not a problem* in anything but the
most highly tuned engines. And a 550 Kawasaki LTD (maybe 50bhp) isn't
that. Sure, ring flutter exists, but the reason for going to wider
bores just isn't for ring flutter. It's a by-product advantage on
super-tuned engines, I suppose, but hardly any road engines (until
perhaps the last few years) have been able to get to the speed where
it becomes a problem.
For engines, the advantages are, as I've said: lower piston speed,
yes, which just reduces wear on the bores and the rings too, I
suppose. The ability to increase the valve area. It makes the engine
shorter (less tall) although the trade-off is, I suppose, that makes
it wider. It also allows the use of a shorter camchain which in theory
reduces the inertial loads.
Now, about Ducatis. I'm not wealthy and I have one, and it has covered
30k miles without any ring flutter or rocking pistons that I'm aware
of. In fact, it's the most reliable bike I've ever owned. If you're
talking super-tuned bikes, see comments above.
Finally, I have a bike whose engine is capable of piston speeds of
around 5000fpm and it doesn't appear unreliable.
<snip usual irrelevance about antique bikes>
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
wrote:
> Finally, I have a bike whose engine is capable of piston speeds of
> around 5000fpm and it doesn't appear unreliable.
And how the phuque do you suppose that the engine evolved to such
capability, you daft cunt?
It's not because there were a lot of ebayers trying to make a living
off of selling
NOS Honda side reflectors, yannow.
It's because the engineers were aware of the various mechanical
problems as they arose and they solved them so the racing department
could race reliable motorcycles on Sunday and the sales department
could sell a cheaper production version on Monday.
The sequence of problems was high piston speed (actually high
acceleration and deceleration causing ring flutter and valve train
problems.)
This was solved by thinner piston rings. Every high speed engine you
look into is going to have 0.5 mm thick rings these days.
As peak RPM increased, the engines ran into problems with connecting
rod stress.
This problem was solved by better quality rods.
Nowadays the problem is with piston cracking around the wrist pin
area.
However, Ducati V-twins are still stuck with a design that is
susceptible to piston ring flutter caused by excessively high piston
speed/acceleration/deceleration in their efforts to make an antiquated
engine competitive with I-4's...
And all this crap between you and me evolves out of my attempt to tell
some poor
rider "don't worry, be happy."
What is it about you that makes you think that your point of view is
the last word on any given subject?
The Older Gentleman
> It's because the engineers were aware of the various mechanical
> problems as they arose and they solved them so the racing department
> could race reliable motorcycles on Sunday and the sales department
> could sell a cheaper production version on Monday.
And piston speeds on anything mother than full race-type bikes are
nowhere *near* enough to cause flutter. It isn't an issue. And road
engines couldn';t attain the sort of speeds where flutter was an issue
*anyway*.
And old Kawasai 550s don't need to worry about it either.
<snip irrelevancy>
>
> However, Ducati V-twins are still stuck with a design that is
> susceptible to piston ring flutter
Mine isn't.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> > However, Ducati V-twins are still stuck with a design that is
> > susceptible to piston ring flutter
>
> Mine isn't.
BullMurray!
Just because you've never revved your Eurofag Duck up to 12,000 RPM
doesn't mean the piston rings won't flutter when you do try it.
The Older Gentleman
Well, thanks for proving my point. It's an irrelevance.
And how my Ducati 750SS (and you've *never* ridden one, nor indeed that
many bikes) would reach 12k rpm when the redline is at 9k I shudder to
think.
Dave Emerson
"??? ??? ????? ???" <macm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:80d55b82-bed5-49bb-b296-
> The sequence of problems was high piston speed (actually high
> acceleration and deceleration causing ring flutter and valve train
> problems.)
> This was solved by thinner piston rings. Every high speed engine you
> look into is going to have 0.5 mm thick rings these days.
Having worked with the Yamaha engineers developing the next-gen Ford B and
sub-B engines, I can confirm that these indeed have <0.5mm thick piston
rings.
However, this has nothing to do with "ring flutter" and everything to do
with reducing internal friction and improving fuel economy; now possible
through the development of advanced materials and manufacturing tolerances.
The Older Gentleman
Thank you. He reads techie stuff, you know, but doesn't understand it
properly. And he simply hasn't the experience anyway. I remember him
banging off a while back about how the Japanese didn't use roller
bearings for their cams, a while back.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
Gentleman) wrote:
> Thank you. He reads techie stuff, you know, but doesn't understand it
> properly. And he simply hasn't the experience anyway. I remember him
> banging off a while back about how the Japanese didn't use roller
> bearings for their cams, a while back.
Yes, you are absolutely correct about me.
I don't know anything, and I don't understand what I've read and I
have zero experience, and I never admit that I'm wrong about
anything.
I have many other faults. I have no wit, no sense of irony, or of
humour.
You, OTOH, are a veritable fountain of wit and wisdom and I hope that
you will stay with all of us forever bestowing your beneficence upon
us all.
Thank you so very much for everything you do for us. I don't know what
we would do without you.
TOG@Toil
'Swot I thought :-)
Look, sweetie, your technical advice is nearly always wrong. It just
*is*. If you have to spit the dummy when it's pointed out, then stop
offering it. It's quite simple :-))
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> 'Swot I thought :-)
>
> Look, sweetie, your technical advice is nearly always wrong. It just
> *is*. If you have to spit the dummy when it's pointed out, then stop
> offering it. It's quite simple :-))
Once again, you've blessed this newsgroup with your effulgent
brilliance.
You are a great and wonderful teacher and we pray that you will never
leave us to our own feeble devices.
Thank you so very, very much.
TOG@Toil
Keep it up. You want to look like an arse (again...); this is the way
to do it.
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> Keep it up. You want to look like an arse (again...); this is the way
> to do it.
How very happily I live, free from hostility among those who are
hostile.
Among hostile people, free from hostility I dwell.
How very happily I live, free from misery among those who are
miserable.
Among miserable people, free from misery I dwell.
How very happily I live, free from busyness among those who are busy.
Among busy people, free from busyness I dwell.
How very happily I live, I who who know nothing.
I will feed on rapture like the Radiant gods.
Dave Emerson
"Winning gives birth to hostility. Losing, one lies down in pain. The calmed
lie down with ease, having set winning & losing aside."
Somewhat apt, as it happens...
Biker Dude
wrote:
> "??? ??? ????? ???" <macmi...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:a6b73f0e-9873-4991...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
The first shocking thing that greets the reader, especially if the
latter comes
from the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma, is the phalanx of negations. But any
reader of
the early canon (in contradistinction to the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma)
will
instantly recognise them -- the negations -- as implied ubiquitously
by the
Buddha himself.
The slogan "form is emptiness; emptiness is form" quite simply means
that form,
just where it is and just as it is, has no essence, and therefore is
empty, i.
e., empty of essence, and that absence of essence, aka emptiness,
right where it
is and just as it is, is the form that we perceive. There is no
inexistence
involved, as form -- phenomenon as it appears to us -- is just what it
is,
exactly where it is, but the essence that we unconsciously impute to
it --
DharmaTroll's "self-stuff invested by us" -- is absent. So, absent the
mentation
that imputes essence, all is reality, right where it is, without
further ado,
and on the contrary, when that mentation is present and imputes
essence, just
that is delusion. That is all there is both to the slogan and to
Buddhism.
Buddhism denies only at the level of metaphysical entities like
essence, but
does not deny anything at the level of phenomena, and the compositions
(the
stuff of our normal, deluded experience) are within phenomena: they
are our own
actions, in the realm of external bodily behavior, speech and thought,
though
some are not within consciousness, at least for the normal, deluded
person.
Phenomena exist and function according to patterns, which are called
modalities
of functioning (dhatu), and the overarching modality is of course
Dependent
Arisal. These are empty and abstract, as opposed to full and concrete
essences.
Emptiness means only the inexistence of essence, but implies nothing
about the
phenomena of which essence is denied but which *keep existing and
functioning
just like before*.
Biker Dude
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> The first shocking thing that greets the reader, especially if the
> latter comes from the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma, is the phalanx of negations.
Nagarjuna's catuskoti has already clawed my mind...
> But any reader of the early canon (in contradistinction to
> the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma) will instantly recognise them -- the negations -- > as implied ubiquitously by the Buddha himself.
Yes. His experiences before Enlightenment were truly hair-raising, but
his dharma emerged Unstained.
> Emptiness means only the inexistence of essence, but implies nothing
> about the phenomena of which essence is denied but which *keep existing and
> functioning just like before*.
I'm just my parents' soul-less little dharma and my mental continuum
perceives no beginning or end because I was unconscious of the
beginning and cannot believe in my ending, though I accept the idea of
it....
***********************************************************************************************
"It's good to see Noble Ones. Happy their company — always. Through
not seeing fools constantly, constantly one would be happy. For,
living with a fool, one grieves a long time. Painful is communion with
fools, as with an enemy — always. Happy is communion with the
enlightened, as with a gathering of kin. So: the enlightened man —
discerning, learned, enduring, dutiful, noble, intelligent, a man of
integrity: follow him — one of this sort — as the moon, the path of
the zodiac stars."
Biker Dude
> On Nov 25, 10:47 pm, Biker Dude <jacobsenpa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The first shocking thing that greets the reader, especially if the
> > latter comes from the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma, is the phalanx of negations.
>
> Nagarjuna's catuskoti has already clawed my mind...
>
> > But any reader of the early canon (in contradistinction to
> > the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma) will instantly recognise them -- the negations -- > as implied ubiquitously by the Buddha himself.
>
> Yes. His experiences before Enlightenment were truly hair-raising, but
> his dharma emerged Unstained.
>
> > Emptiness means only the inexistence of essence, but implies nothing
> > about the phenomena of which essence is denied but which *keep existing and
> > functioning just like before*.
>
> I'm just my parents' soul-less little dharma and my mental continuum
> perceives no beginning or end because I was unconscious of the
> beginning and cannot believe in my ending, though I accept the idea of
> it....
Let there be light within! Each person, from the
beginning of its individual, limited
existence within the greatness of this universe
carries a great source of strength and power
within. It is our soul, passed down to our
physical appearance by countless beings of all
sexes and all ages, offering their collective
wisdom and understanding as our spiritual
inheritance. This source of dynamism lies within
from the time we leave our mother's
womb at birth. It is a matter of finding this
source within yourself and learning to draw
from its infinite strength to manifest it into
your material world. This source I saw as the
dainty glow of hope in my inner darkness.
It was then that I realized that seeking
brightness and hope around you just makes you
more sensitive to perceiving your own inner
darkness. For external light illuminates and
enhances the darkness within and around you. Think
of your eyesight as you first turn off
the light at night in your house - you are blinded
and helpless until your senses adapt and
you develop nightvision. After a short while you
will realize faint contrasts of light against
dark and you will be able to navigate your way
around in the darkness of the room. Your
soul is your nightvision within, once you realize
its glow in the darkness of your illusions,
it will navigate your senses toward your inner
brightness.
It is all within your inner self.
Biker Dude
S'mee
hmmph...what you idiots are forgetting is, is that it's JUST a
philosophy, not a religion. study your ghitas and maybe you'll get on
the path...me I've already burned it all and am going the equivilant
of cross-country. ;^) I am my own dog and my own teacher.
Biker Dude
In another example, Pirsig explains to the reader how one should pay
attention and learn: when the Narrator and his friends came into Miles
City, Montana, he had noticed (second page of chapter 8) that the
engine "idle was loping a little", a sign that the fuel/air mixture
was too rich. The next day he is thinking of this as he is going
through his ritual to adjust the valves on his cycle's engine, because
it "has picked up a noise". In the process, he notes that both spark
plugs are black, another sign of rich mixture. He solves the puzzle as
he is thinking about the feel-good-higher-altitude-mountain-air; the
altitude is causing the engine to run rich. New jets are purchased,
and installed, and with the valves adjusted, the engine runs well. His
cycle begins coughing and almost quits when they get into the
mountains of Montana. This is a more severe altitude problem, but he
knows it will go away when they get back to lower altitude. He does
adjust the carburetor to prevent over heating on the way down.
With this, the book details two types of personalities: those who are
interested mostly in gestalts (romantic viewpoints, such as Zen,
focused on being "in the moment", and not on rational analysis), and
those who need to know details, the inner workings, mechanics (classic
viewpoints with application of rational analysis, vis-a-vis motorcycle
maintenance) and so on.
The Sutherlands represent an exclusively romantic attitude toward the
world. The Narrator initially appears to prefer the classic approach.
It later becomes apparent that he understands both viewpoints and is
aiming, not for the middle ground, but for the necessary ground that
includes both. He understands that technology, and the "dehumanized
world" it carries with it, appears ugly and repulsive to a romantic
person. He knows that such persons are determined to shoehorn all of
life's experience into the romantic view. Pirsig is capable of seeing
the beauty of technology and feels good about mechanical work, where
the goal is "to achieve an inner peace of mind". Zen and the Art
demonstrates that motorcycle maintenance may be dull and tedious
drudgery or an enjoyable and pleasurable pastime; it all depends on
the inner attitude, or lack thereof.
Biker Dude
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> Think of your eyesight as you first turn off the light at night in your house - you > are blinded and helpless until your senses adapt and you develop
> nightvision. After a short while you will realize faint contrasts of light against
> dark and you will be able to navigate your way around in the darkness of
> the room.
Scholars have attempted to say that "enlightenment" is a sort of code
word for
wisdom, equating it with the "sophia" of the sramana of Hellenized
Afghanistan
around the time of Alexander.
OTOH, the Buddha spoke of literally *seeing the light* during
meditation and spoke of how he was temporarily unable to do so because
he was "grasping the quail too tightly".
And, the sramanas of various wisdom schools spent a lot of time with
their
eyes *wide open*, looking for mystical visions with bright light.
For instance, Bodhidharma stared at a wall for nine years, and Tibetan
lamas still stare at the sky looking for vision.
"The Jhanas In Theravada Buddhist Meditation" talks about meditating
while intently staring at various colored disks which are called
kasinas.
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html)
Jhana is a corruption of the Sanskrit word "Dhyana" and the
Chinese word "Cha'an" and the Japanese word "Zen" all have the same
etymology.
They all mean "meditation".
Novice Buddhist monks are told which color disks to stare at,
according to their personality types during meditation.
Chapter 10 of Buddhaghosa's Visuddimagga sutra (The Path Of
Purification) claims that monks can even achieve enlightenment and
nibbana after meditating on kasinas (which can also include other
objects, such as buddha-figures, which can be figures of other buddhas
besides Gautama Buddha).
(http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga%20Chapter%2010.htm)
Thanisarro Bhikku says that the Visuddimagga emphasizes kasinas but
that the Buddha emphasized mindfulness of breathing.
In "The Progress of Insight", A Modern Treatise on Buddhist
Satipatthana Meditation (Visuddhinana-katha), Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw
refers to "the ten corruptions of insight (vipassanupakkilesa) which
deceive a monk into beleiving that that he has achieved enlightenment
prematurely.
http://www.purifymind.com/Insight.htm
Kasinas are also mentioned in the forty kammatthana meditations which
talks about monks meditating near corpses in charnel yards in India.
A charnel yard is the Hindu/Buddhist equivalent of a cemetery, where
corpses are not buried, they are burned or chopped up and left for
vultures to eat.
In this way, the novice monks become repulsed by the foulness of the
human body, which is strange, because they were only recently taught
about how fortunate they were to have been born into a precious human
body which is capable of becoming enlightened and escaping from
rebirth in the suffering of samsara...
I didn't find the prospect of meditating around rotting corpses very
appealing, but I can handle the prescribed colored disks.
I used Paint to make various solid colored images for my desk top and
I entered a shallow state of shamatha while sitting in the dark at
midnight and staring intently at the bright colors.
Colors like Neon Lime green or Hot Pink or Mellow Yellow work best.
They correspond to the colors assigned to the various alchemical
elements of Tantra.
After about two minutes of staring at the colors, they began to appear
to "wash out" as the color-sensitive cones inside my eyeball became
saturated with bright light.
And a halo began to appear around my monitor screen.
When that happened, I closed my eyes and waited to see what would
appear in my mind.
In about two seconds a Black Rectangle moved toward me and became
distinct. Then, whatever color I was looking at was replaced by the
*opposite color*.
Mellow Yellow became *purple*, Hot Pink became Forest Green, Orange
Sherbet became Indigo Blue, Olive turned to Purplish Blue, Aqua became
Royal Purple, Sky Blue became Very Dark Brown, Chocolate Brown became
Very Dark Blue, Neon Lime Green became Dark Purple, Cerise became
Royal Blue, Surf Green became Purple.
The Confederate Battle Flag's blue bars became Red and the
Red background turned Blue...
Now, I can understand the concept of seeing an IMMEDIATE DAZZLING
AFTERIMAGE when I close my eyes.
But the Black Rectangle which has the same proportions as my monitor
screen takes about TWO SECONDS to move towards me and sharpen itself
and then the opponent colors gradually form and fade away and the
Black Rectangle dissolves too.
Sometimes there are small stars in the blue or red colors I see. I
feel like Dave Bowman looking into the Monolith. "My gawd! It's full
of stars!"
Where does the Black Rectangle in my optic nerve come from? Does this
dharma (phenomenon, in this usage) arise from the contrast between the
halo surrounding my monitor and darkness of the room at midnight?
I suspected so. It isn't just the color-sensing *cones* inside my
eyeball, it's the light-sensing *rods* that are causing the opponent
blackness to appear.
According to Wikipedia, "An afterimage or ghost image is an optical
illusion that refers to an image continuing to appear in one's vision
after the exposure to the original image has ceased. One of the most
common afterimages is the bright glow that seems to float before one's
eyes after staring at a light bulb or a headlight for a few seconds.
The phenomenon of afterimages may be closely related to persistence of
vision, which allows a rapid series of pictures to portray motion,
which is the basis of animation and cinema."
"Ewald Hering explained how the brain sees afterimages, in terms of
three pairs of primary colors. This Opponent Process Theory states
that the human visual system interprets color information by
processing signals from cones and rods in an antagonistic manner. The
Opponent Color Theory suggests that there are three opponent channels:
red versus cyan, blue versus yellow, and black versus white. Responses
to one colour of an Opponent Channel are antagonistic to those to the
other colour. Therefore, a green image will produce a magenta
afterimage. The green color tires out the green photoreceptors, so
they produce a weaker signal. Anything resulting in less green, is
interpreted as its paired primary colour, which is magenta."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterimage
4000 years ago, wandering sramanas didn't know anything about rods and
cones, they looked at bright colors and perceived illusions of
radiances inside their closed eyes and thought that they were close to
enlightenment and rapture.
Or maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe they really were manifesting
themselves in multiple places, walking through walls and reading
other people's minds...
gTummo (candali, kundalini) comes easily for me at my age, with my
heart condition and chronic pulmonary obstructive disease, but I have
not yet been able to place the stem of a flower in my fontanelle.
And I have not yet tasted The Deathless personally, I'm still looking
forward to doing that before final Dissolution...
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> hmmph...what you idiots are forgetting is, is that it's JUST a
> philosophy, not a religion. study your ghitas
Consider your own hero, Arjuna, a warrior of the same ksastriya caste
as the Buddha.
"When Arjuna refused her amorous advances, the nymph Urvashi cursed
Arjuna; he would become a "kliba," a member of the third gender.
Krishna assured Arjuna that this curse would serve as the perfect
disguise for Arjuna during his last year of exile. Arjuna took the
name Brihannala and dressed in women's clothes, causing the curse to
take effect. Thus Arjuna gained entry into the city ruled by king
Virata, where he taught the arts of music, singing and dancing to the
princess Uttarā and her female attendees. Doniger describes Arjuna's
cross-dressing disguise as a source of comedy in the story, with
references to his "hairy arms". In the Padma Purana, Arjuna is also
physically transformed into a woman when he requests permission to
take part in Krishna's mystical dance, which only women may attend."
There are many examples of androgynous deities and avatars in Hindu
and Buddhist mythologies. The yogic practice of Kundalini described in
the Upanishads is a method of uniting the Divine Feminine (Shakti)
with the Extremely
Masculine principle of Shiva.
There are phallic statues all over India representing Shiva's lingam.
But men are taught to never disrespect a yoni...
Buddha figures often depict a manifestation of a buddha in yab yum
position with a female consort.
Empowered Tantric initiates attempt Completion, alone, or in yab yum
with a samadhi consort of the opposite sex.
Some of the faithful wonder if their consort is trying to "complete"
as the yidam deity or as the consort, but, to quote Gene Wilder, "It
just doesn't matter!"
> and maybe you'll get on the path...me I've already burned it all and am going the > equivilant of cross-country. ;^) I am my own dog and my own teacher.
So, you're a burned out former warrior from the "don't ask, don't
tell" US
Army, huh?
Don't worry, doing your "duty" on the battlefield during time of war
doesn't generate
the fixed karma that will cause you to be reborn as a Hell being.
You would have had to do terrible things to satisfy your personal lust
and greed
while serving the global capitalists.
No, you won't go Hell, you'll be reincarnated as a donkey, just as you
were in your previous existence.
And now you're breaking trail through the snow drifts of your mind?
Or are you literally breaking trail through the snow around Cut Bank,
MT because none of your vehicles run?
You could try becoming Enlightened. Then you could manifest a "pledge
being" to report to the 7-11 and bring home your paycheck...
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> Novice Buddhist monks are told which color disks to stare at,
> according to their personality types during meditation.
Another kasina (object) that's fun to look at is the Buddhist flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Buddhism.svg
Save this image as a bitmap and apply it to your desk top and stare at
it with
wide open eyes as you slow your breathing down with your favorite
mantra.
Stare eyes wide open until the bright colors fade and a halo appears
around your monitor.
Then close your eyes.
The symbolic colors of the Buddist flag are:
Blue (Nila): Loving kindness, peace and universal compassion
Yellow (Pita): The Middle Path - avoiding extremes, emptiness
Red (Lohita): The blessings of practice - achievement, wisdom, virtue,
fortune and dignity
White (Odata): The purity of Dharma - leading to liberation, outside
of time or space
Orange (Manjesta): The Buddha's teachings - wisdom
When you call up the Opponent Color image, you see a RAINBOW image of
red, purple, blue, black, blue!
Well, I really must stop staring at kasina objects now. I have an
appointment with
The Awakened.
Buddho!
S'mee
<sigh> that's just thinking TOO hard about something instead of...well
just being.
S'mee
> You could try becoming Enlightened. Then you could manifest a "pledge
> being" to report to the 7-11 and bring home your paycheck...
Gee and low caste like you lectureing one who is beyond
caste...amusing. Keep letting others think for your racist chickenhawk
self, after all it's all you are capabel of you non riding fraud.