Do you beleive these stats on Battery Voltages?
Bob
Battery Voltages
Because batteries are always referred to as 12-volt (or 6V or 24V),
it is often assumed that the normal voltage is 12V. In fact a
12V lead-acid battery only producing 12.0V is either
almost flat or is delivering a large current (under a heavy load).
In fact, a healthy 12V battery, when not being charged,
should always show 12.2 - 12.8V.
Very conveniently, the relationship between a battery's state
of charge and its voltage is linear (10% per 0.10V) between about 90%
(12.70V) and 20% (12.0V). However, when a battery has been on
charge, even if its not fully charged, the voltage will be up
around 13.8V. This will slowly drop to around 13.6V over the next
few hours, but even if left overnight it shouldn't drop below
13.0V unless the battery was only partly charged or is on the way out.
But, as soon as a reasonable sized load is switched on, the voltage
drops quite quickly until it equates to the battery's actual
state of charge. Thereafter, the rate of voltage change (under
constant load) becomes linear. Thus, in practice, the voltage
of a freshly charged battery is a poor guide to its state of charge
until some of the charge has been used.
==================================================
If the part about (will slowly drop to around 13.6V over the next
few hours) is still true for small m/cycle batteries, and is not RC/Ah
specific, then I've been getting ripped of on some of the "wet' sla GS/Yuasa
batteries I've been buying..
I know, even the "agm" Chinese batts can hold these stats, but even
13.6 volt "agm" is a drag to start, whereas even a 12.6v "wet" will snap
start better.
The Chinese "agms" seem more like a "gel" battery rather than a
Starting Battery, I think an AGM with cell vent cap holes is pretty unreal
and may just be a bunch of sponge mixed with a sulphuric acid solution,
rather than a real AGM,which is much different...and Concorde pricier.
Bob
S'mee
Krusty's sockpuppet troll. also trying to hide...poorly. "groups:
poster"
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> Very conveniently, the relationship between a battery's state
> of charge and its voltage is linear (10% per 0.10V) between about 90%
> (12.70V) and 20% (12.0V). However, when a battery has been on
> charge, even if its not fully charged, the voltage will be up
> around 13.8V. This will slowly drop to around 13.6V over the next
> few hours, but even if left overnight it shouldn't drop below
> 13.0V unless the battery was only partly charged or is on the way out.
Battery manufacturers would disagree slightly.
If you charge up a sealed AGM battery, you may read
14 ~ 15 volts when you first take it off the charger, but the resting
voltage will drop down to 12.8 volts and stay there in about half an
hour, assuming that the battery was in good condition and took a full
charge.
paul c
Is the first part a quote? If so I'd like to know where it came from.
Some of the sentences are a bit murky to me, eg., 'healthy battery
implies 12.2 to 12.8 V'. It's logically patent that you can't conclude
'12.6 V implies good battery' from that but the last sentence about
voltage being a 'poor guide' gibes with experience.
Even though there are grade-school kids who know more about chemistry
and physics than I do, I find it helpful to remember that voltage is not
a consumable quantity, rather it's a ratio of energy to charge, eg.,
joules per coulomb. So my no doubt over-simplified arithmetic tells me
that there are only so many coulombs in a battery. Personally I find
this to be a more tangible quantity, ie. more useful than the usual
voltage metaphors such as water in pipes or waterfalls. I know they have
some water inside but otherwise I try to keep water away from batteries!
It seems that a low surface charge can drive a multimeter just as well
as a high charge, but when it comes to high current draws such as
electric starter motors, a lot depends on just how many coulombs one
needs to expend. Even that doesn't encompass all the variables such as
the ratio of acid to water, plate thickness and quality and a bunch of
others I don't know much about that all affect internal resistance but
it helps to explain why I couldn't start a 1500 cc thumper with a 12.2 V
battery when the same battery could afterwards start a 50cc scoot.
On the other hand, I've been fooled more than once by a 12.8 V battery
that wouldn't start an engine until it was charged to 13.0 V, then
noticing some ground wire corrosion and after replacing that the same
battery now 'depleted' to 12.4 V started the engine immediately. The
first time I made this mistake, I measured resistance of the ground wire
wire with a fairly high precision ohmmeter. This seemed an easier test
to do than voltage drop. I saw 0.24 ohms and thought that was pretty
darn low resistance and couldn't possibly be the problem. But it seems
that the effective resistance of a starter motor in good condition is
much less than that.
Bob
<macm...@gmail.com> wrote:
|>On Nov 28, 3:26�am, Bob <r...@armageddon.info> wrote:
|>
|>> Very conveniently, the relationship between a battery's state
|>> of charge and its voltage is linear (10% per 0.10V) between about 90%
|>> (12.70V) and 20% (12.0V). However, when a battery has been on
|>> charge, even if its not fully charged, the voltage will be up
|>> around 13.8V. This will slowly drop to around 13.6V over the next
|>> few hours, but even if left overnight it shouldn't drop below
|>> 13.0V unless the battery was only partly charged or is on the way out.
|>
|>Battery manufacturers would disagree slightly.
|>
Yer sure right about that, it's a 3 ring circus of dis/informations all
over.
It may depend on were they were made, but I did use some Chinese
"AGMs" with a holding 13.6 volts 2 hours after charging but no load....it
started with about the same cca as a 12.8 "wet" sla battery.
|> If you charge up a sealed AGM battery, you may read
|>14 ~ 15 volts when you first take it off the charger, but the resting
|>voltage will drop down to 12.8 volts and stay there in about half an
|>hour, assuming that the battery was in good condition and took a full
|>charge.
This battery is on the vehicle circuit, and not a stand alone battery on a
table....right?....a GT9B-4 12v/8Ah wants a charge at 12.v, and the Majesty
Yamaha yp400ts manual considers 12.8v as a minimal voltage, but AGMs can go
down to 12.5v before needing a recharge.
I prefer using a Shumacher 4 stage smart charger with blinding LEDs,
and it equalise/bulk/absorb charges to 12.9v/%100 and then goes into a float
maintenance mode, and goes up to a possible 17v (stubborn batt) to maintain
at least a 13.2v for regular MF/Marine/DeepCycle, and 13.4v for agm/gel
status for a specified time.
The 12.9v full charge is referred as %90 by other chargers, most
chargers, all have a slightly different but very consistent preference.
.
This float *topping mode* is good if you have time/patience with a
passive/auto smartcharger....wereas an active/constant charger feeds the
battery what it is supposed to be with no time consuming battery queries.
Bob
Bob
A quote at:
Useful Info
Very conveniently, the relationship between a battery's state of
charge and its ... up around 13.8V. This will slowly drop to
around 13.6V over the next few hours, .... Visit
http://www.adverc.co.uk or http://www.sterling-power.com for ...
www.attfield.dircon.co.uk/info-indx.html
|>Some of the sentences are a bit murky to me, eg., 'healthy battery
|>implies 12.2 to 12.8 V'. It's logically patent that you can't conclude
|>'12.6 V implies good battery' from that but the last sentence about
|>voltage being a 'poor guide' gibes with experience.
|>
That's reassuring, I was beginning to think I was getting ripped-off
all over on those readings...
|>It seems that a low surface charge can drive a multimeter just as well
|>as a high charge, but when it comes to high current draws such as
|>electric starter motors, a lot depends on just how many coulombs one
|>needs to expend. Even that doesn't encompass all the variables such as
|>the ratio of acid to water, plate thickness and quality and a bunch of
|>others I don't know much about that all affect internal resistance but
|>it helps to explain why I couldn't start a 1500 cc thumper with a 12.2 V
|>battery when the same battery could afterwards start a 50cc scoot.
|>
Surface charges are easily fixed with recharging or topping for a
longer time, to put a difference between Quick "surface" Charge, and a real
holding voltage..
|>On the other hand, I've been fooled more than once by a 12.8 V battery
|>that wouldn't start an engine until it was charged to 13.0 V, then
|>noticing some ground wire corrosion and after replacing that the same
You mean like a "dirty" Neg(-) terminal right, or something like
that?...the Neg(-) terminal goes to the rectifier right?, which holds some
up to 14.9v no load voltage, but allows you to desulfate/egualise charge at
16v/2Ah through it.....
I don't really understand the Rectifier's 14.0-->14.9v no
load/22A/withstand 200volt meaning.....what is NO LOAD and why does the
rectifier allow 16volts/2ah then.
I can't figure that, when I do that, I ground on the frame/terminal,
and no main fuse blow...lucky maybe? If I turn the ignition on even at a 2Ah
setting I'm sure to blow the 40amp main fuse for sure.
Bob
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> |> If you charge up a sealed AGM battery, you may read
> |>14 ~ 15 volts when you first take it off the charger, but the resting
> |>voltage will drop down to 12.8 volts and stay there in about half an
> |>hour, assuming that the battery was in good condition and took a full
> |>charge.
>
> This battery is on the vehicle circuit, and not a stand alone battery on a
> table....right?....
No, that is the open circuit voltage while the battery is sitting on
the table half an hour after charging it.
The manufacturer's literature that comes in the box with the battery
tells exactly how to fill it with the supllied electrolyte and how
long to charge it and at what rate.
Then the literature says to measure the resting *open circuit* voltage
and specifies that 12.8 volts indicates a full charge for the AGM
battery.
If the manufacturer doesn't know the right information, who on earth
would know?
If I can't trust the manufacturer to give me correct information, then
I'm at their mercy...
The last two AGM batteries I've owned lasted 8 years without problem.
paul c
...
> You mean like a "dirty" Neg(-) terminal right, or something like
> that?...the Neg(-) terminal goes to the rectifier right?, which holds some
> up to 14.9v no load voltage, but allows you to desulfate/egualise charge at
> 16v/2Ah through it.....
I meant a copper ground wire where all the strands had turned green.
As for de-sulphating, I was taught that you need a constant-current
charger, and even then it's not always possible. The documentation for
the small Ctek charger I use specifically says that it switches
periodically from constant-voltage to constant-current mode. I'm pretty
sure it has succeeded on three different batteries but once it took
about a week. All of those batteries were MF Yuasa's, which I believe
is a fairly high-quality brand. One of them was three years old and had
sat in a neighbour's unused bike outside from October to June so it
never got very warm. On the other hand, it couldn't save a one-year old
cheap refillable import battery that sat unused just over the winter
months, even with two weeks on that de-sulphating charger. Maybe a more
expensive constant-current charger that can give larger currents for
short periods would have worked, I don't know. Or maybe the guy I got
the battery from had filled it with tap water that was full of various
metals. Around here there is a lot of iron in the water.
Brian Gaff
Also of course all cells are not equal, and some may drop a little more
than others.
Its not just lead acid though, its all batteries and a lot of the
performance has to depend on the electrode area.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Bob" <rk...@armageddon.info> wrote in message
news:ns02h59r55lq4f6k2...@4ax.com...
R. LaCasse
My GT9B-4 12v/8ah holds a 13.2 for about 10 minutes, then drops to
13.0v about 1/2 hour, then so far 3 days @ 12.9v sitting on the bench...
This is a new battery from GS-Yuasa for Can $200.00 and I can't say
it's too shit hot....my last battery was a Chinese one proly with sponge
filled acid starved cells, but it held the voltages and not the CCA/RC....
So I might think that voltage is not the last word here, until I put
a load on it. There calcs for 1000cca=196rc(reserve capacity), but how do I
configure the 12X8=96watt battery to CCA...
I guess I'll keep looking for that one, but even then it's not
"proof in the pudding"....
ThanX for the nfo
Bob
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:05:01 GMT, "Brian Gaff" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:
โอม มณี ปัทเม หุม
> My GT9B-4 12v/8ah holds a 13.2 for about 10 minutes, then drops to
> 13.0v about 1/2 hour, then so far 3 days @ 12.9v sitting on the bench...
Maybe internal cell resistance causes a drop of 0.3 to 0.4 volts
between the terminal posts after the battery has been allowed to rest
for half an hour or more?
paul c
> My GT9B-4 12v/8ah holds a 13.2 for about 10 minutes, then drops to
> 13.0v about 1/2 hour, then so far 3 days @ 12.9v sitting on the bench...
>
> This is a new battery from GS-Yuasa for Can $200.00 and I can't say
> it's too shit hot....my last battery was a Chinese one proly with sponge
> filled acid starved cells, but it held the voltages and not the CCA/RC....
>
> So I might think that voltage is not the last word here, until I put
> a load on it. There calcs for 1000cca=196rc(reserve capacity), but how do I
> configure the 12X8=96watt battery to CCA...
> I guess I'll keep looking for that one, but even then it's not
> "proof in the pudding"....
>
> ThanX for the nfo
>
> Bob
Bob, that is a pretty high quality battery and I am pretty sure from
past posts going back a year or two that the basic problem is that it
is not a very big battery and will drain in a few days under your
conditions. No amount of calculation is going to change that. Plus,
repeated full drains are not good for any lead-acid battery's longevity.
If I parked where you have to park, with the alarm on, I might
consider putting a much larger battery in that big underseat
compartment. This would involve a fair bit of thought for all the
re-wiring. Or possibly a second small battery which would require
thinking about how to charge it, maybe with some fancy electronics or
maybe with a simple switch.
(By the way, I did have a big silver scoot some years ago, but I don't
have any grey clothes. I used to see the same guy when I lived near
there. Now I'm about forty klics south and hardly ever go up there, my
only scoots now are angel blue and burgundy in colour.)
S'mee
If you posted it it's either a LIE or you plagerized it...
Bob Myers
>> Battery manufacturers would disagree slightly.
>>
>> If you charge up a sealed AGM battery, you may read
>> 14 ~ 15 volts when you first take it off the charger, but the resting
>> voltage will drop down to 12.8 volts and stay there in about half an
>> hour, assuming that the battery was in good condition and took a full
>> charge.
>
> If you posted it it's either a LIE or you plagerized it...
He no doubt did a cut-and-paste of this info, but at
least this time he used a source that was correct. Per the
basic chemistry, one lead-acid cell should provide a
nominal voltage of somewhere around 2.1, so for
a six-cell-in-series battery, you should see somewhere
around 12.6V. The "13.X" volt reading that we're used
to seeing in charging situations (including what you'd
see on a voltmeter on your car dash, since presumably
the engine is running and the system is in the "charging"
condition when you'd see this) is because you have to
use a slightly higher voltage per cell to charge the thing.
But 14-15V is high; exceed about 2.4 V/cell (14.4V across
a "12V" six-cell battery, and a lead-acid cell will start
outgassing. Typically, a charger is set to deliver something
like 2.2-2.3 V/cell, or 13.2-13.8V across the battery - and
that's the highest you should ever be reading across the
battery terminals.
Bob M.
Mark Olson
Mostly correct if you are talking conventional lead-acid batteries, but
for many new bikes that come with sealed VRLA (valve regulated lead acid)
batteries, the lead-calcium chemistry is different, and the voltages are
a little higher. According to Yuasa,
When considering upgrading to a sealed VRLA
battery that did not come OE in your vehicle, check
to make sure your charging system has a
regulated output between 14.0 - 14.8v.
Of course this applies to vehicles that came from the factory with sealed
VRLA batteries too, not just older vehicles that are being retrofitted.
Also, the _fully_ charged voltage of a sealed VRLA battery is 13.0V, not 12.6V:
Check voltage using a voltmeter. Readings for a charged, newly-activated
battery should be 12.8v or higher after the battery is charged and sits for
at least 1 - 2 hours. If less, it needs an additional charge.
I strongly recommend that anyone who has an interest in taking the best
possible care of their motorcycle battery, no matter what style or type,
to download and read Yuasa's excellent technical manual.
http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechMan.pdf
It has enough detail and enough plain language to satisfy both picky chemists
and curious ignotes.
Bob Myers
> Mostly correct if you are talking conventional lead-acid batteries,
> but for many new bikes that come with sealed VRLA (valve regulated lead
> acid) batteries, the lead-calcium chemistry is different, and the
> voltages are a little higher. According to Yuasa,
I stand (well, sit) corrected, or at least amended, however
please let me add that "VRLA" does not necessarily imply
a different cell chemistry (the name itself simply means
"valve-regulated lead-acid," and refers to any of the
construction types where the battery is "sealed" and will not
vent excess gas until/unless a pressure relief valve is triggered.
These are also generally classed as "acid-starved" and/or
"recombinant" types, as they (a) generally contain less acid
than a conventional design, and (b) are constructed such that
generated hydrogen and oxygen gases will recombine rather
than vent, as long as the pressure remains below the relief
valve's trip point. However, while this permits a somewhat
higher charge voltage (and therefore faster charging) to be
safely used, the cell chemstry is very often exactly the same
as in conventional types, and so the voltage of a charged
cell or battery would in those cases also be the same. So
in the case of a VRLA type, you will often see somewhat
higher charging voltages, but the same voltage as in a conventional
type when you simply check the battery voltage on its own.
In any event, we certainly agree that one should not exceed
the recommended maximum charging voltage per the
battery manufacturer's recommendations; Bad Things can
happen if you do. 15V is high for any of these types.
Bob M.
Mark Olson
No, according to Yuasa, that is not the case with their sealed VRLA
batteries. Perhaps it is true of other makes, but I doubt it.
> In any event, we certainly agree that one should not exceed
> the recommended maximum charging voltage per the
> battery manufacturer's recommendations; Bad Things can
> happen if you do. 15V is high for any of these types.
I'm not a chemist nor do I play one at weekends, but if you read the
Yuasa technical manual, I think all or most of your concerns about
sealed VRLA batteries and their electro-chemistry will be addressed.
I strongly doubt that any VRLA batteries sold to the general public are
anything other than a lead-calcium chemistry. Here's what Yuasa has to
say about their sealed VRLA batteries:
1. The plates are comprised of special lead-calcium
alloy grids and charged active material. Lead-calcium
reduces self-discharge – the battery holds its charge
longer. The construction of the sealed VRLA battery
causes freed gas to recombine inside the battery instead
of being vented… allowing the battery to be sealed.
...
During discharge, sulfuric acid electrolyte solution reacts
with the lead plates, turning them into lead sulfate. The
electrolyte – sulfuric acid solution made up of hydrogen,
sulfur and oxygen – gives up its sulfur and some of its
oxygen and turns to water.
PbO2 + Pb + 2 H2SO4 → 2 PbSO4 + 2 H2O
The process reverses with charging. Electrolytes and
plates return to their original composition. The charging
current breaks down water into its component gases:
hydrogen (from the negatively charged plate) and oxygen
(from the positive plate). Gases escape out the vent
tube. With a conventional battery, water is added to
replace that loss.
Here’s the real secret of a sealed VRLA battery: the negative
plate never becomes fully charged… so, no hydrogen
gas. The positive plate still makes oxygen, but instead of
being forced out the vent tube, it reacts with the charged
active material to become water again. That’s “gas
recombinant technology.” That’s the magic of YUASA’s
non-spillable, sealed VRLA battery.
Really, download that PDF and read it, I found it fascinating.
paul c
...
> I strongly recommend that anyone who has an interest in taking the best
> possible care of their motorcycle battery, no matter what style or type,
> to download and read Yuasa's excellent technical manual.
>
> http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechMan.pdf
>
> It has enough detail and enough plain language to satisfy both picky
> chemists
> and curious ignotes.
Thanks for that link. It mentioned another Yuasa pub'n that I hadn't
seen before:
http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/2009_yuasa_apps_specs.pdf
Has cross-reference for some other mfrs' batteries, plus the suggested
Yuasa batteries for a lot of bikes going back for years. Come to think,
for years I've abused their batteries too, with generally better results
than I deserved.
(I don't know if there is another powersports battery company like Yuasa
in North America who are so forthcoming with their information, maybe
they are just better at knowing their market. I remember seeing a
really nice tester they made but it was a bit too much for my
pocketbook. Would have bought one of their chargers if it had been
readily available locally.)
paul c
> R. LaCasse wrote:
>> My GT9B-4 12v/8ah holds a 13.2 for about 10 minutes, then drops to
>> 13.0v about 1/2 hour, then so far 3 days @ 12.9v sitting on the bench...
>>
>> This is a new battery from GS-Yuasa for Can $200.00 and I can't say
>> it's too shit hot....my last battery was a Chinese one proly with sponge
>> filled acid starved cells, but it held the voltages and not the
>> CCA/RC....
>>
>> So I might think that voltage is not the last word here, until I put
>> a load on it. There calcs for 1000cca=196rc(reserve capacity), but how
>> do I
>> configure the 12X8=96watt battery to CCA...
>> I guess I'll keep looking for that one, but even then it's not
>> "proof in the pudding"....
>> ThanX for the nfo
>>
>> Bob
>
Oops, pardon me, now I`m not sure if that is a Yuasa battery. I see
that the yx400 takes a Yuasa YT9B. Is it from the GS-Ztong Yee
company... maybe that is some Yuasa partnership, I don`t know. I`ve
never paid more than CAD 100 for a Yuasa vlrf, counting 12 or 13% BC
taxes and some of them were rated 12AH.
Mark Olson
> (I don't know if there is another powersports battery company like Yuasa
> in North America who are so forthcoming with their information, maybe
> they are just better at knowing their market. I remember seeing a
> really nice tester they made but it was a bit too much for my
> pocketbook. Would have bought one of their chargers if it had been
> readily available locally.)
I love it when companies give you extensive specs and tech information.
Bob
<wlf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
|>On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:22:24 -0800 (PST), ��� ��� �ѷ�� ���
|><macm...@gmail.com> declaimed the following in alt.scooter:
|> Surface charge has dissipated... I believe instructions for my
|>charger even mention turning on the headlights for a few minutes before
|>doing a voltage reading, to ensure the surface charge on the plates has
|>dissipated.
They mention the headlight use in all manuals, but the charge on the
plates is not redundant, as I have noticed in some batteries.
I think the concept of surface charge is intended here as the
difference between a quick charge, and a slow charge, which applies to a lot
all battery systems.
Why is it that the charge is much better in a slow charge, and
better in a trickle/float/maintenace charge...
Ah, hell, were gonna get all mixed up in the terminology here, but a
"big ass" charge is a just as good as trickle charge, for all the difference
intended, if you're in a motivated hurry.
It all really "boils" down to the fact that a good M/cycle, UPS,
trailer home, "spaciality" battery is costing too much as compared to
fit-all car battery,
Bob
TOG@Toil
> It all really "boils" down
Heh!
> to the fact that a good M/cycle, UPS,
> trailer home, "spaciality" battery is costing too much as compared to
> fit-all car battery,
>
Three words: "Economy of scale"
And, look, will you please stop setting your damn follow-ups to
"poster"? I can't believe it's deliberate, but it is damned annoying.
Bob
|> Really -- I just spent $130 for a battery for my Jeep, and it wasn't
|>even the top-line version. The current battery in the Dungbeetle cost me
|>about $50.
|>
So you have a chinese battery for the Scoot, which I assume you keep
on overnight charges as well.....parking on the streets can be a SOB with
these batteries.
|> Granted, the Jeep still had the OEM battery after 10 years, whereas
|>the Dungbeetle (which only charges when moving faster than 10MPH --
|>idling at signals rapidly drags it down to 11V) gets sulfated after a
|>year.
Usually a starting battery only lasts about 1 year here, but
constant charging can give you 2-->3 years and more if they aren't MF and
you can replenish through the vent caps.
The agms can't take as many discharges as a Wet battery, some conclude 40
discharges of the 900 cca starting lifetimes.
Those "agm" Chinese batteries are really difficult to maintain,
since they literally have to be on a charger most of the time due to the
fact that they are immobilized sulfuric acid, and the sulfur doesn't climb
the "plates" to descend upon charging when to the molten vat of the
regular/traditional cell.
I looked into one of my "agm" and saw it as some white folded foam
dry plates...added some water to charge, but that didn't help to this point.
Usually agms only have a spoonful of water in the system of white folded
foam plates.
MF batteries are pretty screwed in the world of parking on the
streets with occasional home charging situations, whereas Wet with vented
caps, can give you a few more years.
All sorts of Dicking around with batteries put you under the
"Get-A-Life" category of life.....right, just pay the man for a new
recycled of manufacturer's defect one.
Wet batts are better for deep discharges, but maybe
deep-cycle.marine types may be better, and may be what m-cycle batteries are
more like.AGMs and Gel, don't seem to fit the picture of city driving
starting batteries.
Bob
Bob
<wlf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
|>A high charge tends to hit resistance limits when only the surface
|>of the plates is at "full" voltage, with temperature rise (heck, the low
|>charge rate on my SC8000 is technically too high for the battery in my
|>Dungbeetle -- and compound that with the fact that the charger has
|>concluded my battery is sulfated, so goes into desulfation mode for
|>90minutes before giving up -- I have to go out every 15 minutes or so to
|>bounce the front-end shaking gas bubbles off the plates; the gas blocks
|>the charging action).
My Shumacher 1200 charger goes into desulfate mode from 2-->10 hours
depending on how really bad the battery is.
It's all auto but has a lot of manual configs to dick around with.
Bob
R. LaCasse
I figure the only way I can tell whether a "sealed" battery is AGM,
is that AGMs don't heat up with normal charge, whereas Flooded Wet/MF/SLA
will heat up to a boil at 12.9v.
Most aftermarket batts are AGM hybrid types and the ones you get
when you bought your NEW M/Cycle had a WET Sealed/flooded/MF Battery...the
best, but did it ever cost.
So far all the batteries I get are an AGM type, and they don't
desulphate much, even with Pulse Width or 16v/2amp sessions on autocharge
systems, they can do some good, but equalizing/desulfation is not possible
in the "AGM" batteries....they need some attended 25volts/2amp to even start
decrystalizing the soft sulphation.....hard sulphation is still impossible
to reverse.
Bob
Bob
wrote:
|>On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 17:41:57 -0800, R. LaCasse <sco...@yamaha.info>
|>wrote:
|>
|>> I figure the only way I can tell whether a "sealed" battery is AGM,
|>>is that AGMs don't heat up with normal charge, whereas Flooded Wet/MF/SLA
|>>will heat up to a boil at 12.9v.
|>>
|>> Most aftermarket batts are AGM hybrid types and the ones you get
|>>when you bought your NEW M/Cycle had a WET Sealed/flooded/MF Battery...the
|>>best, but did it ever cost.
|>> So far all the batteries I get are an AGM type, and they don't
|>>desulphate much, even with Pulse Width or 16v/2amp sessions on autocharge
|>>systems, they can do some good, but equalizing/desulfation is not possible
|>>in the "AGM" batteries....they need some attended 25volts/2amp to even start
|>>decrystalizing the soft sulphation.....hard sulphation is still impossible
|>>to reverse.
|>>
|>>Bob
|>
|>
|>As someone who worked 30 years in the lead-acid battery industry, the
|>above makes no sense to me.
|>
|>12.9 volts is 2.15 volts per cell. This is not enough voltage to even
|>make a lead-acid cell gas let alone boil. A 12-volt battery that
|>gasses heavily or boils or heats up at this voltage is a severely
|>defective battery in need of replacement.
|>
You're right, I have one of them slightly abused from discharges and
experiments, (6 years old) in the GS GT9B-4, this is definitely a WET
flooded, and the little flyer than came with it says it's a wet...the new
batteries just have an instruction label on the battery, like VRLA, made in
Taiwan/Japan Storage, never quick charge (like an AGM allows)..
|>When it comes to the cost of flooded vs AGM... the microfibrous glass
|>mats used in AGM cells are far more expensive than the separators used
|>in flooded cells. There is no reason for flooded to cost more than
|>AGM, everything else being equal. In the case where the flooded is
|>"normal" price and the AGM is cheaper, you almost surely have a poor
|>quality AGM battery that has some substitute for the separation
|>material that will not give good battery performance or life.
|>
There are a lot of buzzword marketing and quality versions of
VRLA/AGM/Polimion/SLA/Wet/Starved..... well you know, the market is
saturated with AGMs with 6 Vent Caps, which is bizarre thing right there,
but when I opened the vents, they were an Aggregate Glass Mat (AGM) acid
starved construction, very hard to revive.....almost impossible after 1
year.
|>When it comes to irreversible sulfation, you need to spend far more
|>time discovering and correcting the CAUSE than on correcting the
|>RESULT.
**The problem is that I park my M/Cycle on the street's no
electrical outlet parking lot, and I can't leave a battery tender/overnight
charger on the Maxi-Scooter with the GSyuasa GT9B-4, so I have to upgrade
the frequency of "topping up" the battery.**
I did buy another $200.00 Can. battery GSYuasa GT9B-4, with no
pamphlet, which I concluded is a VRLA Flooded, since it didn't fit the
gsyuasa G/YT9B-4 description of a polimion/agm Conventional or CB series
Polimion/AGM....
Yuasa never employ the term AGM, but use Polimion to describe the
foam separators as in an AGM.....just making it all more confusing as to
whether setting the SC1200a battery charger to AGM/Gel/Marine/Regular/Etc..,
so I went with Regular, which is a lower voltage float than the AGM and
other float setting ones...
Thanx in Advance
Bob
Bob
wrote:
|>
|>>
|>> **The problem is that I park my M/Cycle on the street's no
|>>electrical outlet parking lot, and I can't leave a battery tender/overnight
|>>charger on the Maxi-Scooter with the GSyuasa GT9B-4, so I have to upgrade
|>>the frequency of "topping up" the battery.**
|>
|>
|>With respect, I suggest that your real problem is that the charging
|>system in your motorcycle is defective or else is designed to charge
|>wet flooded lead-acid batteries, not sealed/VRLA/AGM types. The
|>latter require a more sophisticated charging system and a higher
|>charging voltage.
|>
Well the charging system of the M/Cycle Yamaha Majesty is putting
out 14 volts/27.5A at 5,000rpm from the AC magneto (moric), which is deemed
fast city driving.....
The battery leeches 120 watts from the 2 headlights, and those are
on all the time, and everything is ECU/ECM computerized, so if there was a
real problem there would be an error code...somewhere..I suppose, then
there's the alarm system, which I rarely use because of the 8AMP limit.
|>
|>> I did buy another $200.00 Can. battery GSYuasa GT9B-4, with no
|>>pamphlet, which I concluded is a VRLA Flooded, since it didn't fit the
|>>gsyuasa G/YT9B-4 description of a polimion/agm Conventional or CB series
|>>Polimion/AGM....
|>
|>
|>"VRLA Flooded" has no meaning to me. VRLA are starved electrolyte
|>designs, not flooded. There are some flooded batteries with special
|>positive pressure vent caps containing a catalyst designed to
|>recombine any gas produced (with questionable success) and maybe
|>someone calls those "VRLA Flooded," but without more explanation the
|>term "VRLA FLooded" is so contradictory as to be meaningless.
|>
The GT9B-4 (battery type) for the Yamaha Majesty Maxi Scooter, is
used in a lot of other bikes, but mostly racing bikes/rockets.
The GT9B-4 VRLA battery pamphlet I got last time said:
INSTRUCTIONS FOR SEALED WET
CHARGED STORAGE BATTERY
Then it goes on with the regular charge at 12v/.8a for
5-->10hours....nothing explicit there...but the manual has all the constant
charging emphasis of 16->17volt variable voltage (current) and the constant
charge to 15 volts "not more than 20 hours" and the 1/2 hour let sit then
check the open circuit....same stuff.
They do emphasize that auto chargers (they may damage the battery)
and then constant amperage chargers won't work and may not charge the
battery right, whereas they tend to contradict themselves a bit to cover
their liability I guess.
My Charger a SC1200 Regular/Deep Cycle/AGM-GEL of 2/8/12 volt
settings seems to work pretty good as a 3->4 step smart charger.
The problem with an auto charger or passive charger, is that they
are slower than active constant chargers that TELL the battery what is
needed....the passive auto charger is more meticulous.
***So I should set the Charger for GSyuasa G/YT9B-4 AGM, since it says VRLA,
but the battery is a virtual brick for some reason, not like the aftermarket
AGM ones that have rubber and plastic vent caps anyways.***
|>
|>> Yuasa never employ the term AGM, but use Polimion to describe the
|>>foam separators as in an AGM.....just making it all more confusing as to
|>>whether setting the SC1200a battery charger to AGM/Gel/Marine/Regular/Etc..,
|>>so I went with Regular, which is a lower voltage float than the AGM and
|>>other float setting ones...
|>
|>
|>You have me at a disadvantage here because despite working for Yuasa
|>in the 90s (and others back to 1971) I was never in the motorcycle end
|>of the business and don't know motorcycle battery types and sizes. I
|>gather, possibly incorrectly, that GT9B-4 is more a standard battery
|>SIZE rather than a specific battery made by Yuasa. That said, when I
It's a totally Sealed like a BRICK, "Spaciality" Battery GSyuasa
(Recent Merger) GT9B-4/YT9B-4/YT9B-BS, are all the same, whereas the
cheaper ones are redone AGMs with vent caps, or "wiggly" sealed.
|>look at the batteries Yuasa makes for motorcycles (Google search) they
|>seem to be exclusively AGM. If this is the case for your GT9B-4 then
|>you need to set the charger for AGM, not regular (flooded?). AGM
|>batteries require a higher charge voltage than flooded batteries and
|>use of the "regular" (flooded?) setting will result in a chronically
|>undercharged AGM battery. That would explain why your outboard
|>charger is not maintaining your battery.
|>
They make all kinds of GSyuasa G/YT9B-4 batteries, not all are
sealed, but they are all the same size with 12v/8a/115cca...sure they are
called AGM, but not on the battery, just in the promo. If you open the
vents, ohoh....they are all AGM, with white AGM sponge plates with the rest
being air.
|>But, bottom line, your motorcycle charging system determines what
|>battery type you need to use. If it's designed for AGM, then you need
|>to use AGM... and if this is the case, and given the problems you've
|>been describing, you probably need to have the charging system looked
|>at and repaired/replaced. If it's designed for "regular" batteries -
|>which I assume means flooded - then that's the battery type you need
|>to use.
|>
Well I got this battery at a Yamaha Dealer were I ought the Scooter
new, and all they said was these batteries don't like a lot of volts, but
last year, they called the GT9B-4 a Gel...
|>A caveat - I'm not familiar with motorcycles other than the one I
|>owned in the late 60s. It had a flooded battery because that's all
|>there was at the time. Perhaps none of them use flooded batteries
|>these days. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that.
Right, and your auto charger absorbed at 14.5v, and floated at 13.7
at only 12.2volts like a cliplight laser constant amperage charger...when it
found a battery that didn't hold on float for 20 hours, it went into full
charging mode again..
The chargers haven't changed much, except for a slight finesse in
charging differences, much more lights and constant digital LED battery
voltage reportage.
Most motorcycle batteries are being replaced by agm since the
1980's, but they are getting almost totally phased out, just like the modern
car ones....same thing.
So I still don't know really know if this GSyuasa GT9B-4 VRLA is a
Wet or agm/polimion, since GS does not make a polimion or conventional in
the GSyuasa GT9B-4 power/size format...wereas other battery sizes and power,
have a selection....
--
Triad Productions-Fantalla�~EZine~ParaNovel
National Association of Assault Research
(http://tarbitch.balder.prohosting.com/htmlconc. html)
Bob
wrote:
|>
|>>***So I should set the Charger for GSyuasa G/YT9B-4 AGM, since it says VRLA,
|>>but the battery is a virtual brick for some reason, not like the aftermarket
|>>AGM ones that have rubber and plastic vent caps anyways.***
|>
|>A totally sealed brick is almost certainly AGM or equivalent so set
|>the charger to AGM.
I always thought the super seal, was to emphasize the non-spillable
aspect of a WET battery, and sulfuric acid secure enough to pass the
transportation i$$ues.
I think the AGM concept was to circumvent the transportation i$$ues,
whereas the separate bottle or plastic tubes should have done the job...
the instructions on the battery emphasis the non-spillable issue, and say
the battery is full of acid....so I'm, not too sure about the AGM
compliance.
Although it can be installed at 45deg angles, the box it came in did
say *This Side Up* proly for some other reason or no reason at all.
I always pre charge a new battery to a 2 day trickle on the
auto-charger.....
My battery in the MF VRLA GSyuasa GT9B-4 is not *polimion*, and the
AGM setting on the SC1200 auto charger, could overcharge it, as in evaporate
the irreplaceable water levels.
My charger "pings" up to 15.2volts in all (Reg/Agm/Marine settings)
the algorithmic cycle although it can go 17volts for worse batteries, then
it drops to 13.2 for 10 minutes, then ping cycles up again...
In AGM/Gel mode, it stays at 13.5 for 10 minutes before starting the
float algorithm cycle again, as in (Message-ID:
<L4OdnVL50YvccYnW...@earthlink.com>) discusses..
AGMs were not a real good replacement in the RCapacity concept of
M/Cycle batteries, due to the over stressing of the alternator's limited
(%75) output, and a lot of these batts., say they should be topped up
monthly, or the usual 12.5 volts....
Thanx Again
Bob
Bob
I know a fair bit about batteries and charging systems, even with
the more recent intros of diversionary buzzwords, like Polimion, Yumion, but
I was wondering exactly what type of GSyuasa GT9B-4 12v/8amp battery I had,
excluding gel and flooded/conventional...
So I found the latest GS 6mb manual for my GSyuasa GT9B-4 and **GT
stands for AGM**
.....but the same battery form Yuasa YT9B-4 but NOT YT9B-BS is a MF-WET
battery and would lose some capacity/water if overcharged, and since GS and
Yuasa got together last year, I was getting confused about which changes
were made in my $200 GSyuasa GT9B-4 12v/8amp battery which is the Scooter's
specific and not aftermarket battery..
So I set the Shumacher 2/8/12 amp- AGM/Regular/deep cycle/Gel Float
charge to AGM. AGMs have almost no internal resistance to WET/Flooded
batteries, you can tell right off the bat....
The last GT/YT9B-4AGM I got was factory charged and the voltage
stayed at 13.6 volts, pretty good for $100, but a Batt high RC can start at
12.3volts but not the AGM.....
I took one old G/YT9B-4AGM apart some and seen the difference and am
still using it for secondary purposes..
Bob
ralleyrat
wrote:
> On Nov 28, 3:26 am, Bob <r...@armageddon.info> wrote:
>
> > Very conveniently, the relationship between a battery's state
> > of charge and its voltage is linear (10% per 0.10V) between about 90%
> > (12.70V) and 20% (12.0V). However, when a battery has been on
> > charge, even if its not fully charged, the voltage will be up
> > around 13.8V. This will slowly drop to around 13.6V over the next
> > few hours, but even if left overnight it shouldn't drop below
> > 13.0V unless the battery was only partly charged or is on the way out.
>
>
> If you charge up a sealed AGM battery, you may read
> 14 ~ 15 volts when you first take it off the charger, but the resting
> voltage will drop down to 12.8 volts and stay there in about half an
> hour, assuming that the battery was in good condition and took a full
> charge.
Manufactueres would not disagree.
It's called 'surface charge' and 'pros' will lightly load a battery
for a minute or so to
drain it before they take voltage to estimate the 'state of charge' to
which you refer.
Bob
<<<<<------CORRECTION------->>>>>
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:28:03 -0800, R. LaCasse <yamaha_...@istar.info>
wrote:
|>|>But 14-15V is high; exceed about 2.4 V/cell (14.4V across
|>|>a "12V" six-cell battery, and a lead-acid cell will start
|>
|> My Camera/Quantum Bantam Charger charges a 6volt@7.5 like a
|>12volt@15volt would be, and then floats at a sense-on-demand.
|>
Well that doesn't make too much sense, does it....it should read as
follows:
|> My Camera/Quantum Bantam Charger charges a 6volt to *7.5volts* like a
|>12volt to *15volts* would be, and then floats at a sense-on-demand.
That's for a *constant charger* an *auto charger* or *
sense-on-demand* ping charges to 16-->17volts which is what is needed to
charge a 12volts battery as per instruction manuals, but the battery label
always states (trickle charge) ^12volts^ at 10% of total battery RC amps, or
(quick charge) ^12volts^ at 30%-->60% of total battery RC amps.
There you go, they say that al over the place in all sorts of
battery literature........but in professional real-time, there are a lot of
argumentative people on that, and they would never charge a *12volt* battery
to *15volts*, even though a lot of chargers out there do that, but most
absorb to *14.4v* for the last 40+ years in all sorts of configs with the
same *13.7?* float monitor charge......
But there are exceptions, and then there are malfunctioning ones,
with all sorts of battery and charger variants
M/cycle batteries are so limited on RC (Reserve Capacity), that I
think it's time for a change like Ni-mh or Li-on, but they stuck with high
voltage because they assume most motorcycles are driven very fast, and will
gain the voltage from the alternator/generator/stator quickly/ leaving us
mostly city drivers with a dead/weak battery on most occasions.
A ^scooter specific^ rather than motorsports battery like Ni-mh or
Li-on or back to Wet may work better if you park on the streets or public
parking lots.
Bob