Race weekend musing...
Mark N
crash at the end of qualifying, a nasty spill into the chicane. What was
clear all weekend was that Spies was fastest going into the chicane,
amazing that he'd get through there smoothly every time (well, almost,
and he ran through the dirt late in yesterday's race).
The guys that are stamping their mark on this AMA season both won
on Saturday, Mladin in SB and Hayes in FX, and then repeated yesterday.
For Hayes, the FX race was closer than expected, something happening out
of view that put Gobert in the lead late. The SSport race ended with a
red flag and Hacking out front, but the win went to Hayes, who had led
from the start, then got passed by the two Kawis and looked to be
fading, then fought back and ended up leading at the right time. That's
the kind of stuff that happens when it's your time, and it certainly
appears it's Josh's time. He leads FX by 19 points and SSport by 12.
For Mladin as well, and he put on a crushing exhibition this weekend,
something that has to have put a dent in Spies' confidence. In the first
race Spies error in turn one pretty much ended things, but because Mat
took advantage and didn't give it up. Sunday was a closer duel the
margin three seconds give or take most of the way, but Ben just couldn't
cut into it. Points are tied now, but it's Mat with all the momentum,
and we'll see if Ben can react at the two fastest tracks on the
schedule, Elkhart and Miller coming up next.
The rest really had no chance, although the Hondas came
closest. The fight for third yesterday appeared over early, Zemke
gapping the rest, but then DiSalvo, RL Hayden and Duhamel took turns
trying to make it interesting. E-Boz faded from the start, DiSalvo
charged early (after looking like a podium early on Saturday) but then
faded as well, so the Yamahas aren't quite there yet, and a terrible
weekend for Bostrom. For Kawasaki it wasn't much better, the loss in
SSport, the horrible race for Hacking in SB yesterday (eventually back
with the MVs), Rog's SB motor grenading while he was flying in 4th.
Jordan had a horrible weekend as well, with Holden crashing several
times over the weekend including out of the SStock race, Yates crashing
out of 2nd in that one and further problems had him 11th and 14th in the
SB races. Back to earth for Mike. Not a bad weekend for the Brits,
though, as Davies looked very good in SStock, not quite able to hold the
top three but always there, and Ellison took a pair of top tens in SB
and top privateer. Maybe a new source of immigrants for the AMA? You
know, give us your tired, your weak, your yearning to be paid...
Got up early to watch GP, and this weekend had me thinking it's all
about tires these days. Bridgestone swept the podium at the home GP for
Michelin, their only excuse being that it was a wet race. Well, sort of,
as we once again got to see guys tip-toeing around on slicks on an
increasingly damp track until guys started skittling off, the signal for
everyone to run for the pits and their full rains. Makes for good
television, including the homeboys stretching and leading (briefly,
before crashing), but is it really safe? Of course not. At least the
crashers didn't take anyone else out, although Rossi did run off course
being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then we see the most
bizarre race for a polesitter that I can remember, Edwards fading
immediately and incredibly rapidly from the start, no grip, then in for
his rains too early, in later for another switch (To what? On what?
Rules say he either had to change tire type, or switch on his existing
bike), and lapped three times in the end. Rossi also got bamboozled by
the new tire rule once again this weekend, although he made a brave go
of it at the start.
So the two rules changes regarding tires dominated this weekend, just as
they seem to be doing this season, although as usual somewhat under the
surface, most of the talk being about the new 800cc Super250s, Ducati
and Stoner. Casey, the right man in the right place at the right time,
moves on toward a possible championship with another podium. Rossi falls
21 points behind after being off the podium once again, and is now deep
in the coldest streak of his career, only 2 wins in the last 11 races,
his worst since his first days in 500, when he won 1 of the first 12
races in 2000. Nick "I could have been Casey" Hayden had his chance to
get a little something going end in bitter defeat in the gravel, and now
has fallen out of the top ten in points (had a discussion with Earl at
Sears yesterday, confirmed pretty much what one has been hearing - just
more emphatically. Much more).
Pedrosa had his best wet race and is within shouting distance, 40 points
back, and Melandri's first podium has him a point behind Dani, With the
Suzuki guys in 5th and 6th, those four are really the only guys still in
it. But Pedrosa and especially Rossi have to live with what Michelin can
manage these days, and Melandri the same with his non-factory Honda.
Realistically it seems to be down to Stoner and Rossi already, with
Pedrosa the only viable alternative. Last year at this point there were
five riders within 18 points of the lead (and Rossi wasn't among them).
And how much of that is down to the rules changes? A shadow grows over
the series. But the tire factories are saving money, and the
championship is down to four 125/250 guys, so they got what they wanted,
I guess...
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tMWdnWokvIMBLszb...@giganews.com...
> Started on Friday with practice at Sears, the major moment being Spies
> crash at the end of qualifying, a nasty spill into the chicane. What was
> clear all weekend was that Spies was fastest going into the chicane,
> amazing that he'd get through there smoothly every time (well, almost,
> and he ran through the dirt late in yesterday's race).
One has to wonder whether it was the loss of his #1 bike Friday that slowed
him down, or the crash itself, which, from what I heard wasn't bad at
all.(for him)
>
> The guys that are stamping their mark on this AMA season both won
> on Saturday, Mladin in SB and Hayes in FX, and then repeated yesterday.
> For Hayes, the FX race was closer than expected, something happening out
> of view that put Gobert in the lead late. The SSport race ended with a
> red flag and Hacking out front, but the win went to Hayes, who had led
> from the start, then got passed by the two Kawis and looked to be fading,
> then fought back and ended up leading at the right time. That's the kind
> of stuff that happens when it's your time, and it certainly appears it's
> Josh's time. He leads FX by 19 points and SSport by 12.
Right now Hayes is hotter than a tote sack of Habeneroes, not to mention,
pretty lucky too!
>
> For Mladin as well, and he put on a crushing exhibition this weekend,
> something that has to have put a dent in Spies' confidence. In the first
> race Spies error in turn one pretty much ended things, but because Mat
> took advantage and didn't give it up. Sunday was a closer duel the margin
> three seconds give or take most of the way, but Ben just couldn't cut into
> it. Points are tied now, but it's Mat with all the momentum, and we'll see
> if Ben can react at the two fastest tracks on the schedule, Elkhart and
> Miller coming up next.
With the them tied I would expect Mat to turn up the rhetoric a few
decibels. It will be very interesting to see how the Spies handles it. Heh,
prolly good experience for when goes "over there."
>
> The rest really had no chance, although the Hondas came
> closest. The fight for third yesterday appeared over early, Zemke gapping
> the rest, but then DiSalvo, RL Hayden and Duhamel took turns trying to
> make it interesting. E-Boz faded from the start, DiSalvo charged early
> (after looking like a podium early on Saturday) but then faded as well, so
> the Yamahas aren't quite there yet, and a terrible weekend for Bostrom.
> For Kawasaki it wasn't much better, the loss in SSport, the horrible race
> for Hacking in SB yesterday (eventually back with the MVs), Rog's SB motor
> grenading while he was flying in 4th.
I was surprised that Eric didn't do a lot better, afterall, Sears is almost
like his home track..
>
> Jordan had a horrible weekend as well, with Holden crashing several times
> over the weekend including out of the SStock race, Yates crashing out of
> 2nd in that one and further problems had him 11th and 14th in the SB
> races. Back to earth for Mike. Not a bad weekend for the Brits, though, as
> Davies looked very good in SStock, not quite able to hold the top three
> but always there, and Ellison took a pair of top tens in SB and top
> privateer. Maybe a new source of immigrants for the AMA? You know, give us
> your tired, your weak, your yearning to be paid...
Yeah, I was trying to watch the lap times live on the AMA site, it looked
like the Limey faded when the 3 H's turn it up a notch there at the end. You
can't deny the kid Q's fairly well considering all the tracks are new to
him, but he needs to get racy if his plans include winning something over
here, especially so in the fur ball we know as SSport..
Side note, ProRacing finally updated their @ the wire deal, it is one hell
of a lot better, now they need someone that pays attention and knows what
they're doing to run it on raceday, Both days it froze and reverted to the
previous race around the white flag, it wasn't a big deal Sat. with the
SB's, but suk'd bigtime Sun. during the SSport race..
"They trik fukin' ma' boy"? C'mon, tell me/us. Heh, I don't give a shit if
any of these other clowns want to hear it, or not, I damn sure do! Earl
isn't usually "candid" at the track, so if he was lettin' it rip, let's hear
it!(heh, hope you didn't ask if he's second guessing that Duc offer;)
>
> Pedrosa had his best wet race and is within shouting distance, 40 points
> back, and Melandri's first podium has him a point behind Dani, With the
> Suzuki guys in 5th and 6th, those four are really the only guys still in
> it. But Pedrosa and especially Rossi have to live with what Michelin can
> manage these days, and Melandri the same with his non-factory Honda.
> Realistically it seems to be down to Stoner and Rossi already, with
> Pedrosa the only viable alternative. Last year at this point there were
> five riders within 18 points of the lead (and Rossi wasn't among them).
> And how much of that is down to the rules changes? A shadow grows over the
> series. But the tire factories are saving money, and the championship is
> down to four 125/250 guys, so they got what they wanted, I guess...
Let's see, 44 degrees F and rain. Hmm, what to do? Hey, let's race one-off
prototype motorcycles! Yeah, that's the ticket... NOT!
*There's a time to hunt ducks and a time to race motorcycles, different
times!*
*T3*
Mark N
> "Mark N" wrote
>> crash at the end of qualifying, a nasty spill into the chicane. What was
>> clear all weekend was that Spies was fastest going into the chicane,
>> amazing that he'd get through there smoothly every time (well, almost,
>> and he ran through the dirt late in yesterday's race).
> One has to wonder whether it was the loss of his #1 bike Friday that slowed
> him down, or the crash itself, which, from what I heard wasn't bad at
> all.(for him)
Don't know, they had the bike rebuilt by Saturday, but it was in pretty
bad shape. It was a hard tumble, even with the slow speed when he went
off. Seemed to have hurt his arm or something. Anyway, I kind of doubt
he was slowed much at all, Mat was just faster.
> With the them tied I would expect Mat to turn up the rhetoric a few
> decibels. It will be very interesting to see how the Spies handles it. Heh,
> prolly good experience for when goes "over there."
I think that's more like "if". But, yes, the psychological stuff has
just started, and both will throw it around. Somehow I have a hard time
seeing Ben come out on top in that fight, though...
> I was surprised that Eric didn't do a lot better, afterall, Sears is almost
> like his home track..
Eric has always struggled here, I think his only wins have been in FX
the year he won almost all the races in that class, and also last year.
He never raced there until he was in the AMA, so his only connection is
being born in the area.
>> Nick "I could have been Casey" Hayden had his chance to get a little
>> something going end in bitter defeat in the gravel, and now has fallen out
>> of the top ten in points (had a discussion with Earl at Sears yesterday,
>> confirmed pretty much what one has been hearing - just more emphatically.
>> Much more).
> "They trik fukin' ma' boy"? C'mon, tell me/us. Heh, I don't give a shit if
> any of these other clowns want to hear it, or not, I damn sure do! Earl
> isn't usually "candid" at the track, so if he was lettin' it rip, let's hear
> it!(heh, hope you didn't ask if he's second guessing that Duc offer;)
No, I didn't toss that one out, having already blown it once when I very
briefly talked to Nick at Fontana. Anyway, Earl was working the family
tee shirt shop in the vendors' area, so I asked him if Nicky was okay
(torn cartilage in the ribcage, nothing broken), and got him going on
the current situation - Nicky needing a good result for his confidence
right now and talked about how hard he's worked on his rain riding, so
that crash being such a blow, then the problem with the new bikes, which
he referred to being like 125s and never mind 250s, that "they should
have made them 1200s instead of taking away 200cc", how Nicky was having
to learn how to ride all over again, always referring to the ex-250
riders as "those little guys", saying every 15 pounds equals one
horsepower, trying to describe how little Pedrosa is by saying "his feet
are only this big!" while holding his fingers 6-7 inches apart, and then
he went off on the bike's bodywork and Nick's problems with that. After
that I just didn't have the heart to bring up the Ducati contract...
Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his
maniacal intensity. Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in
that camp, Puig always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for
certain developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and
Hayden, etc. Scary stuff.
> Let's see, 44 degrees F and rain. Hmm, what to do? Hey, let's race one-off
> prototype motorcycles! Yeah, that's the ticket... NOT!
You forgot about doing it on slicks...
Greg Campbell
> Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
> crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
> information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his
> maniacal intensity.
That's not an overstatement.
The guy's psycho-eyes were more than a little disturbing.
> Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in
> that camp, Puig always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for
> certain developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and
> Hayden, etc. Scary stuff.
I dunnow about the whole 'grand conspiracy' plot. Maybe.
Actually, after watching that scene, I almost feel sorry for the Toxic
Dwarf. Pedrobot is young and impressionable, and is being taught some
horrid life lessons from that nutcase. Just look at what it's done to
the little shit: Pedrosa is wallowing in rabid, dark intensity 24/7. I
wonder if Puig has him kneeling and muttering "What is thy bidding,
Master?" when they speak?
-Greg
Julian Bond
>I dunnow about the whole 'grand conspiracy' plot. Maybe.
>Actually, after watching that scene, I almost feel sorry for the Toxic
>Dwarf. Pedrobot is young and impressionable, and is being taught some
>horrid life lessons from that nutcase. Just look at what it's done to
>the little shit: Pedrosa is wallowing in rabid, dark intensity 24/7. I
>wonder if Puig has him kneeling and muttering "What is thy bidding,
>Master?" when they speak?
Ah. MotoGP as Star Wars. So it's not Luke and Obi Wan. or Luke and Yoda.
It's the dark side. Vader and Sidious.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
*** Just Say No To DRM ***
Julian Bond
>> Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in that camp, Puig
>>always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for certain
>>developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and Hayden,
>>etc. Scary stuff.
>
>I dunnow about the whole 'grand conspiracy' plot. Maybe.
Sounds like Hayden's already got himself beat. So where's Pete Benson in
all this? And why do the HRC press releases about their problems and
solutions all talk about Hayden and not Pedrosa? Honda are throwing new
bits at Hayden just as fast as new bits at Pedrosa. It's not like Honda
aren't embarrassed by the #1 bike so far back.
I figure we keep looking at Repsol-Honda as if it's one team. But really
it's two teams that just happen to work in adjacent garages and share
the same sponsor.
Champ
<menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
>Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
>crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
>information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his
>maniacal intensity.
I saw those pictures, but unlike you I didn't see any "unsuppressed
glee".
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Mark N
> Greg Campbell
>>> Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in that camp, Puig
>>> always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for certain
>>> developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and Hayden,
>>> etc. Scary stuff.
>>
>> I dunnow about the whole 'grand conspiracy' plot. Maybe.
> Sounds like Hayden's already got himself beat. So where's Pete Benson in
> all this? And why do the HRC press releases about their problems and
> solutions all talk about Hayden and not Pedrosa? Honda are throwing new
> bits at Hayden just as fast as new bits at Pedrosa. It's not like Honda
> aren't embarrassed by the #1 bike so far back.
Here's one of the things HRC's Horiike said in China, from Cycle News
this week: "...He revealed they are working on both larger bodywork and
chassis modifications to help Pedrosa's teammate, their defending world
champion Nicky Hayden, adapt to the tiny new bike... But they had
already made a different fairing nose with bulkier "shoulders" for
Hayden, and were testing new bodywork aimed at improving aerodynamics
for better speed... Horiike could give no delivery date for chassis
modifications for Hayden. 'I don't know in detail. Mr. Okuma [RC212V
project leader] has said he has no time to make a completely new one for
each rider, I think."
He denies the Dani-bike thing, and says the bike was designed not for
any one rider but was dictated by "raw physics", and reiterated that the
minimalist bodywork was for quicker side-to-side transitions. But when
you think back to Honda's statements about "compact riders for the
compact bikes of the future" in late 2005, it's pretty clear what way
they were going with their bike design.
> I figure we keep looking at Repsol-Honda as if it's one team. But really
> it's two teams that just happen to work in adjacent garages and share
> the same sponsor.
Yeah, you keep saying that, but what does that mean? What you're saying
is that the world champion at best gets "separate but equal" treatment
compared to his teammate, and in the larger picture maybe not even that,
given that their basic requirements are apparently so different. Has
Rossi ever faced this situation? Of course not.
Mark N
> Mark N wrote:
>
>> Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
>> crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
>> information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under
>> his maniacal intensity.
>
> That's not an overstatement.
> The guy's psycho-eyes were more than a little disturbing.
You got that right - he looked f*cking insane...
>> Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in that camp, Puig
>> always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for certain
>> developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and Hayden,
>> etc. Scary stuff.
>
> I dunnow about the whole 'grand conspiracy' plot. Maybe.
> Actually, after watching that scene, I almost feel sorry for the Toxic
> Dwarf. Pedrobot is young and impressionable, and is being taught some
> horrid life lessons from that nutcase. Just look at what it's done to
> the little shit: Pedrosa is wallowing in rabid, dark intensity 24/7. I
> wonder if Puig has him kneeling and muttering "What is thy bidding,
> Master?" when they speak?
Oh, yeah, that's the strangest relationship I can recall in racing.
There have always been these interdependent relationships between riders
and crew chiefs, and there have been mentor relationships like Kocinski
with Roberts, but nothing like this. You wonder if Dani can even think
on his own, you never see him in the pits without Puig whispering in his
ear. Makes you wonder what might happen if he ever tried to make a break
with Puig, not that that's likely to ever happen...
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
> No, I didn't toss that one out, having already blown it once when I very
> briefly talked to Nick at Fontana. Anyway, Earl was working the family tee
> shirt shop in the vendors' area, so I asked him if Nicky was okay (torn
> cartilage in the ribcage, nothing broken), and got him going on the
> current situation - Nicky needing a good result for his confidence right
> now and talked about how hard he's worked on his rain riding, so that
> crash being such a blow, then the problem with the new bikes, which he
> referred to being like 125s and never mind 250s, that "they should have
> made them 1200s instead of taking away 200cc", how Nicky was having to
> learn how to ride all over again, always referring to the ex-250 riders as
> "those little guys", saying every 15 pounds equals one horsepower, trying
> to describe how little Pedrosa is by saying "his feet are only this big!"
> while holding his fingers 6-7 inches apart, and then he went off on the
> bike's bodywork and Nick's problems with that. After that I just didn't
> have the heart to bring up the Ducati contract...
Interesting, but ISTR it's somewhere closer to 8lbs. per pony, though
whatever, it's still significant. He say anything about little Gillum, with
that family being so very close that had to have hit home pretty hard?
Even though I completely understand and agree, him bitching about little
guys is sorta' ironic, at 6'4" it's like the pot, kettle thing to me, that
said, I'm not sure Dani even qualifies as a midget, more like a dwarf..
>
> Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's crash
> yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the information on
> Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his maniacal
> intensity. Makes you think about what Hayden is up against in that camp,
> Puig always working the HRC guys for favors, pressing for certain
> developments, working the Repsol connection against HRC and Hayden, etc.
> Scary stuff.
To be honest, I didn't watch much at all after seeing the weather, I was
more interested in Sears anyway,(redhead too;-) but if she lets me I'll
check it out this evening on the replay..
Ya' know, it's hard not to get the feeling that Hayden's place in the Repsol
Honda scheme of things was more to palcate USHonda and much less for him to
be sucessful, or get a real shot. You can build a fairly clear picture now
that so many little things are finally coming to light and whether one
agrees, or not, it's hard not to say that;
1. The fundamental way HRC is being run is vastly different now that the old
man is gone and
2. Hayden should have said ciao last year and taken the Duc deal.
To me, the questions are why it is, and why he didn't, though I doubt
answers to either will be forthcoming any time soon, if ever..
>
>> Let's see, 44 degrees F and rain. Hmm, what to do? Hey, let's race
>> one-off prototype motorcycles! Yeah, that's the ticket... NOT!
>
> You forgot about doing it on slicks...
Yeah and I still don't get it, prolly never will either...
T3
"Julian Bond" <julia...@voidstar.com> wrote in message
news:OGrOwTAl...@jblaptop.voidstar.com...
> Ah. MotoGP as Star Wars. So it's not Luke and Obi Wan. or Luke and Yoda.
> It's the dark side. Vader and Sidious.
Obi Wan and Luke might have been Erv and Hayden, Puig and Dani are more
like the Emperor and a Jawa!
Julian Bond
>On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:08:18 -0700, Someone wibbled
>
>>Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
>>crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
>>information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his
>>maniacal intensity.
>
>I saw those pictures, but unlike you I didn't see any "unsuppressed
>glee".
There's no denying Puig's intensity. You can also argue that he was just
doing his job and doing it well. Dani P was skating close to the edge
trying to stay ahead of a closing Hayden. With Hayden out, Hoffman some
way behind and Stoner some way ahead he could back off and just bring it
home. So it was important to get that next pit signal correct. Not too
surprising then that Puig reacted with speed.
Mark N
> Champ sees what he wants
>> Someone wibbled
>>
>>> Speaking of all that, did you notice Puig's reaction after Hayden's
>>> crash yesterday? He bolts over to the pitboard and ripped off the
>>> information on Hayden, his unsuppressed glee barely concealed under his
>>> maniacal intensity.
>> I saw those pictures, but unlike you I didn't see any "unsuppressed
>> glee".
> There's no denying Puig's intensity. You can also argue that he was just
> doing his job and doing it well. Dani P was skating close to the edge
> trying to stay ahead of a closing Hayden. With Hayden out, Hoffman some
> way behind and Stoner some way ahead he could back off and just bring it
> home. So it was important to get that next pit signal correct. Not too
> surprising then that Puig reacted with speed.
One could argue that - except that Hayden was actually AHEAD of Pedrosa
and Dani was closing on him, less than a second behind. In fact Dani
probably had a great view of Nick going down, and hardly needed his pit
board to know the change in his situation. And Puig certainly knew that,
so I see it as a very revealing, totally emotional reaction.
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
> One could argue that - except that Hayden was actually AHEAD of Pedrosa
> and Dani was closing on him, less than a second behind. In fact Dani
> probably had a great view of Nick going down, and hardly needed his pit
> board to know the change in his situation. And Puig certainly knew that,
> so I see it as a very revealing, totally emotional reaction.
After further review, it's hard not to see that, for whatever reason, he was
excited that Hayden was down and done...
Mark N
> "Mark N" wrote
>> briefly talked to Nick at Fontana. Anyway, Earl was working the family tee
>> shirt shop in the vendors' area, so I asked him if Nicky was okay (torn
>> cartilage in the ribcage, nothing broken), and got him going on the
>> current situation - Nicky needing a good result for his confidence right
>> now and talked about how hard he's worked on his rain riding, so that
>> crash being such a blow, then the problem with the new bikes, which he
>> referred to being like 125s and never mind 250s, that "they should have
>> made them 1200s instead of taking away 200cc", how Nicky was having to
>> learn how to ride all over again, always referring to the ex-250 riders as
>> "those little guys", saying every 15 pounds equals one horsepower, trying
>> to describe how little Pedrosa is by saying "his feet are only this big!"
>> while holding his fingers 6-7 inches apart, and then he went off on the
>> bike's bodywork and Nick's problems with that. After that I just didn't
>> have the heart to bring up the Ducati contract...
> Interesting, but ISTR it's somewhere closer to 8lbs. per pony, though
> whatever, it's still significant.
Yeah, that sounded a bit high to me as well, but that's what he said. He
also talked about Nicky having to run a harder tire than Dani most of
the time, because the extra weight just accelerates tire wear.
He say anything about little Gillum, with
> that family being so very close that had to have hit home pretty hard?
No, stayed away from anything too personal.
> Even though I completely understand and agree, him bitching about little
> guys is sorta' ironic, at 6'4" it's like the pot, kettle thing to me, that
> said, I'm not sure Dani even qualifies as a midget, more like a dwarf..
Didn't get the feeling that there was much love lost there...
> Ya' know, it's hard not to get the feeling that Hayden's place in the Repsol
> Honda scheme of things was more to palcate USHonda and much less for him to
> be sucessful, or get a real shot. You can build a fairly clear picture now
> that so many little things are finally coming to light
Yep, it's pretty clear at this point, although I thought it got that way
early last year, if there was much question left anyway. My read of it
is that Hayden as just gotten caught in a process that has no room for
him. Honda didn't really want him in GP in the first place, and American
Honda apparently pushed that to happen. I think there has been a camp
within HRC that likes Hayden, but the larger camp are the GP guys that
have been involved with Pedrosa for a number of years, built the tiny
250 that he won on (can you imagine a bike that Elias, all of 5-4 and
126 pounds, said was too small for him?), and came up with this
"physics-driven" compact bike/rider deal. Throw in Repsol's support and
Puig's lunatic doggedness and Hayden hardly stands a chance. Winning the
championship seemed his only realistic hope, but you see how little
that's done. I mean, when HRC is too busy to build bodywork to fit the
world champion, the writing is very clearly on the wall...
and whether one
> agrees, or not, it's hard not to say that;
> 1. The fundamental way HRC is being run is vastly different now that the old
> man is gone and
> 2. Hayden should have said ciao last year and taken the Duc deal.
>
> To me, the questions are why it is, and why he didn't, though I doubt
> answers to either will be forthcoming any time soon, if ever..
You have to wonder how much American Honda had to do with upping the
ante in Japan last year, the situation was virtually identical to that
in 2002. If they were a player, then they may have also made a personal
appeal to him that he felt compelled to consider. Whatever happened, it
now seems a serious miscalculation on his part. What would be really bad
is if this shit continues for the next two years, because that could
ruin his career in GP. I almost wonder if he had an escape clause built
into his deal. If so, while Yamaha seems unlikely yet again, Loris is
about done at Ducati, and even if Hayden didn't get that, Hopper might
and that would open up a spot at American-friendly Suzuki. That's if it
doesn't end up going to Spies, of course, the only GP option he could
have for next year, given his deal here. And of course Kawasaki is in
real need of a serious lead rider, although that seems like a GP closed
shop, midgets only need apply. But if he runs out his deal, then there
may not be as many options available for '09.
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
>> To me, the questions are why it is, and why he didn't, though I doubt
>> answers to either will be forthcoming any time soon, if ever..
>
> You have to wonder how much American Honda had to do with upping the ante
> in Japan last year, the situation was virtually identical to that in 2002.
> If they were a player, then they may have also made a personal appeal to
> him that he felt compelled to consider. Whatever happened, it now seems a
> serious miscalculation on his part. What would be really bad is if this
> shit continues for the next two years, because that could ruin his career
> in GP. I almost wonder if he had an escape clause built into his deal. If
> so, while Yamaha seems unlikely yet again, Loris is about done at Ducati,
> and even if Hayden didn't get that, Hopper might and that would open up a
> spot at American-friendly Suzuki. That's if it doesn't end up going to
> Spies, of course, the only GP option he could have for next year, given
> his deal here. And of course Kawasaki is in real need of a serious lead
> rider, although that seems like a GP closed shop, midgets only need apply.
> But if he runs out his deal, then there may not be as many options
> available for '09.
The Duc deal aside, conventional wisdom has been to follow your lead rider
and he did develop most of the components in the current machine, not to
mention, while taking the title from their arch nemesis. The thing that gets
me is the direction Honda has taken with the dwarf thing, if GP is the
testing, or proving grounds for new tech and ideas it would almost seem self
defeating throwing most your resources behind an anomaly such as Pedrosa is.
They know damn well the major advantages of a little rider just as the horse
racing industry does, but unless I've missed something fairly big, horses
and motorcycles really have only races in common. In racing everybody wants
an advantage, that's a given, but using a dwarf would seem to skew any
information you might acquire, at least to me and that doesn't even take
tires into the issue.
So, one has to look at the motivations that made them choose their current
direction.
1. Did they want, more than anything else, just to beat Rossi and think that
only a dwarf could do it?
Maybe, remember he did dis them pretty good and you know how those "most
honorable" Mofo's are.
2. Was it because Pedrosa is better than sliced bread, the new "greatest of
all time" and the future of racing?
I'm thinkin' a big no on that, though I'd bet real money there are some here
that truly believe otherwise.
3. Is someone else footing the bill for all this?
Don't think so and even if someone was able and willing it's hard to imagine
Honda allowing themselves to be used.
4. Is their apparent move to little guys part of some grand scheme for Nips
to dominate the series?
Could be and given the Japs make the majority of the machinery involved
maybe they feel a Nip rider should ride it and if anyone hasn't noticed,
they've got a whole country full of little guys like Dani boi.
5. Or is it some weird combination of the above?
I dunno, but it is somewhat fascinating to ponder. One thing for sure and as
much as a lot of folks in the racing game disliked the old man's ways of
getting in and getting out of some series they still respected him, but I
seriously doubt he would've taken HRC down their current path. But like I
said earlier, we, more than likely, will never know the whole story, one
thing fairly consistent about the movers and shakers in racing, they usually
take most of their secret deals to the graveyard when they go...
Mark N
> The thing that gets
> me is the direction Honda has taken with the dwarf thing, if GP is the
> testing, or proving grounds for new tech and ideas it would almost seem self
> defeating throwing most your resources behind an anomaly such as Pedrosa is.
> They know damn well the major advantages of a little rider just as the horse
> racing industry does, but unless I've missed something fairly big, horses
> and motorcycles really have only races in common.
Yeah, in horse racing they equalize rider weight, even with the little
guys ;)
In racing everybody wants
> an advantage, that's a given, but using a dwarf would seem to skew any
> information you might acquire, at least to me and that doesn't even take
> tires into the issue.
> So, one has to look at the motivations that made them choose their current
> direction.
> 1. Did they want, more than anything else, just to beat Rossi and think that
> only a dwarf could do it? Maybe, remember he did dis them pretty good
> and you know how those "most honorable" Mofo's are.
I don't really think they're fixated on Rossi, I don't think this Cult
of the Individual goes very far in corporate boardrooms. Losing to
Yamaha might be quite different. But I really think it's the same old
thing at Honda - they want to do it their way, and want to prove that
their way is better, at least to themselves.
> 2. Was it because Pedrosa is better than sliced bread, the new "greatest of
> all time" and the future of racing?
> I'm thinkin' a big no on that, though I'd bet real money there are some here
> that truly believe otherwise.
I'm not so certain about that. While I doubt they are fixated on even
their own riders, I do think they believe he's their best chance, with
the rules the way they are. I also think they know that Repsol thinks
that, and you have to work with your wallet-toting partner.
> 3. Is someone else footing the bill for all this?
> Don't think so and even if someone was able and willing it's hard to imagine
> Honda allowing themselves to be used.
I don't think there's any doubt that Repsol has real power when it comes
to rider selection. We've seen that with Criville, Gibernau, Barros,
Pedrosa. When they extended their contract in 2005 they made a big deal
about the contract not including a rider veto for Repsol, strongly
suggesting that was a change. But that was a two-year extension signed
right after Dani signed his two-year deal, so...
> 4. Is their apparent move to little guys part of some grand scheme for Nips
> to dominate the series?
> Could be and given the Japs make the majority of the machinery involved
> maybe they feel a Nip rider should ride it and if anyone hasn't noticed,
> they've got a whole country full of little guys like Dani boi.
I think it's more likely that they see what sort of riders get developed
within GP, and probably believe in that source for MotoGP riders.
Since the departure of Rothmans and the end of the American/Australian
dirt/SB-sourced era, the factory team has hired Criville, Okada, T. Aoki
(just on the twin), Gibernau, Rossi, Ukawa, Hayden, Barros, Biaggi,
Pedrosa. So all GP guys except Hayden and Aoki. This "compact
bike/rider" thing plays into that, as 250 only produces very small
riders these days, it's hardly just Dani-Boy. And Horiike denies that
Honda ever builds bikes for a specific riders anymore, they learned
their lesson on that 20 years ago. Maybe yes, maybe no.
> 5. Or is it some weird combination of the above?
> I dunno, but it is somewhat fascinating to ponder. One thing for sure and as
> much as a lot of folks in the racing game disliked the old man's ways of
> getting in and getting out of some series they still respected him, but I
> seriously doubt he would've taken HRC down their current path. But like I
> said earlier, we, more than likely, will never know the whole story, one
> thing fairly consistent about the movers and shakers in racing, they usually
> take most of their secret deals to the graveyard when they go...
It's corporate decisionmaking, and you never know what drives it if
you're not on the inside. But it seems like this jockey stuff dovetails
nicely with the concept that it's the bike that really matters, and the
rider is just something you're required to put on top of it. I think
even that is mostly just a stereotype of Honda thinking, though.
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
> It's corporate decisionmaking, and you never know what drives it if you're
> not on the inside. But it seems like this jockey stuff dovetails nicely
> with the concept that it's the bike that really matters, and the rider is
> just something you're required to put on top of it. I think even that is
> mostly just a stereotype of Honda thinking, though.
But you see that was my point, Honda-san used HRC as his private racing toy
and by design there wasn't much corporate decision making involved, but I
guess now that he's gone things are decided a little differently...
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
On another note, did you happen to catch the SSport race on Speed? 20, or so
minutes into the hour broadcast the race hadn't started, Wow!
Anyway, even though we(Jamie too) were cheated by the red flag it was still
one of the better races I've seen on the tube in quite some time. A lot of
hard, clean, no quarter given racing up front. As our good friend Mr. Bond
would say, a cracker.(whatever that means)
Julian Bond
>Somebody wibbled:
>
>>Loris is about done at Ducati,
>> and even if Hayden didn't get that, Hopper might and that would open up a
>> spot at American-friendly Suzuki.
I reckon if Loris retired, that spot would go to an Italian. Which means
Melandri.
>The thing that gets
>me is the direction Honda has taken with the dwarf thing
What exactly is it that Honda have done to the machine to make it
"Dwarf-Friendly"? The only fundamental thing I can point at is the size
of the front fairing. You would think this was fixable with some time in
a wind tunnel.
There's a story going around (possibly coming from the Yamaha camp) that
their problems with knife edge setup and either front and/or rear end
grip is that they've gone too far with mass centralisation and they've
raised and moved forward the engine and hence the CoG. This produces too
much weight transfer under braking, forcing harder spring rates leading
to chatter. Hayden is supposed to have asked them to build a bike with
this year's engine and last year's chassis but it won't fit. Seems to me
we've heard this before somewhere. Like Yamaha last year. If the bike is
sensitive and unforgiving to setup then you'd expect very different
reactions from different sized riders as rider weight position is a
major factor in race bikes. That's what we're hearing although finding
concensus is pretty hard. It's not clear that Pedrosa, Nakano, Elias
have got the same problems or Hayden, Checa or Melandri somewhere in the
middle. The one thing every Honda rider is missing is power but this is
made worse if corner exit is compromised by weight transfer problems.
Mark N
> "Mark N" wrote
>> not on the inside. But it seems like this jockey stuff dovetails nicely
>> with the concept that it's the bike that really matters, and the rider is
>> just something you're required to put on top of it. I think even that is
>> mostly just a stereotype of Honda thinking, though.
> But you see that was my point, Honda-san used HRC as his private racing toy
> and by design there wasn't much corporate decision making involved, but I
> guess now that he's gone things are decided a little differently...
I have no idea, the man retired in 1973 and has been dead for 16 years,
so racing was much different when he ran things, so much so that it's
almost impossible to compare. In the time that I've followed bike racing
closely, Honda has seemed to maintain a certain character of approach
that has been reasonably consistent. They seem to want to do things
differently, from the oval-piston NR500 to the NS500 triple to the
radical first NSR to their single-crank NSRs that followed, including
the first big-bang, to the V5 RCV. On the street and in SB it was their
series of V4s. They seem interested in those engineering exercises, and
they also seem interested in taking on things outside of their core,
like a dirttrack twin in America to a V-twin in WSB.
In terms of the racing, I think that old "Honda comes, Honda wins. Honda
loses, Honda leaves." thing is long gone, if it ever really applied.
They have been a steadfast supported of GP, building bikes for all
classes and more in MotoGP than they'd like. I also think they
understand that to always dominate there hurts the series, and therefore
hurts its value to them. So I think they have done things that haven't
always increased their chances of winning.
Ducati might not care that a rules issue allowed them to dominate WSB
more than was healthy for the series, but I don't think Honda feels the
same. Of course, Ducati's very survival is probably much more dependent
on racing success. So Ducati came into GP abandoning their traditional
twin configuration but didn't adopt anything radically different than
they already understood, and they totally ignored the unofficial
horsepower cap as well. Although they were dominantly successful at the
start of MotoGP, I think Honda could have been even more dominant had
they chosen to be.
At the moment their problem mostly seems to be that they pretty much had
to make major changes to their motor, given the weight penalty put on
800cc five-cylinder engines. The others were able to shrink their
existing 990cc designs more effectively than Honda was able to redesign
theirs. The chassis, while very similar in spec to Hayden's Brno bike,
has apparently been effected by the placement of the new motor and the
change in center of gravity. This has resulted in handling problems,
particularly with larger or heavier riders. They're also down on power,
which effects the larger riders more as well. And it's said that they
have throttle control problems as well.
Given these problems and obvious design intent like the minimalist
bodywork, it seems Honda has put all its eggs in Pedrosa's basket,
whether or not they really intended to, to this extent. Given the need
to play catch-up, the guys on the satellite teams are mostly being
ignored, while development impacts Repsol only. Given the points
situation and the strengths and weaknesses of the bike and its
character, one would absolutely expect that Honda would become focused
mostly on Pedrosa, if they haven't already.
I also believe the weight thing is material in their thinking on this.
Back before the weight minimum on 500s was significantly increased in
1991 Honda built their NSR down closer to the old minimum, some 10 kilos
lighter than the Yamaha YZR in '90. Then there was the NS triple before
that, and their experimentation with twins in building their 500
production racer in the late '90s, and talk of a twin or triple for the
800 era. That fours and fives had the same minimum under 990 rules must
have been THE reason they built the V5, and that a five now carries a
7.5kg/16.5lb penalty is at least one reason they changed to a four this
year. So they play to the rules, and with no restriction on rider weight
it stands to reason that they'd take advantage of that as much as they can.
Anyway, all that seems to reflect consistent threads in their approach
to racing, at least as far back as I go.
T3
"Mark N" <menu...@NYETSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
>> But you see that was my point, Honda-san used HRC as his private racing
>> toy and by design there wasn't much corporate decision making involved,
>> but I guess now that he's gone things are decided a little differently...
>
> I have no idea, the man retired in 1973 and has been dead for 16 years,
> so racing was much different when he ran things, so much so that it's
> almost impossible to compare. In the time that I've followed bike racing
> closely, Honda has seemed to maintain a certain character of approach
> that has been reasonably consistent. They seem to want to do things
> differently, from the oval-piston NR500 to the NS500 triple to the
> radical first NSR to their single-crank NSRs that followed, including
> the first big-bang, to the V5 RCV. On the street and in SB it was their
> series of V4s. They seem interested in those engineering exercises, and
> they also seem interested in taking on things outside of their core,
> like a dirttrack twin in America to a V-twin in WSB.
He may have retired from Honda Inc., but that was so he could devote
full-time to HRC, which, IIRC, he solely controlled..
>
> In terms of the racing, I think that old "Honda comes, Honda wins. Honda
> loses, Honda leaves." thing is long gone, if it ever really applied.
I think at one time that might have been half ass accurate and if Ricky
Graham was still around he probably would agree. Today, I see them a lot
more measured, or maybe even provincial in their endeavors..
> They have been a steadfast supported of GP, building bikes for all
> classes and more in MotoGP than they'd like. I also think they
> understand that to always dominate there hurts the series, and therefore
> hurts its value to them. So I think they have done things that haven't
> always increased their chances of winning.
I'm not saying it happened overnite Mark, but I am saying I believe the
fundamental way HRC actually races has changed dramatically since the old
boy took his hands off the reigns. Honda-san, love him, or whatever, but you
couldn't deny the fact the guy wasn't sucessful in building a dynasty
rivaled by very few and on top of that, he just loved racing, almost as much
as winning..
>
> Ducati might not care that a rules issue allowed them to dominate WSB
> more than was healthy for the series, but I don't think Honda feels the
> same.
What? Yeah, they might feel bad about it, but they'd feel that way all the
way to the bank..
Of course, Ducati's very survival is probably much more dependent
> on racing success. So Ducati came into GP abandoning their traditional
> twin configuration but didn't adopt anything radically different than
> they already understood, and they totally ignored the unofficial
> horsepower cap as well. Although they were dominantly successful at the
> start of MotoGP, I think Honda could have been even more dominant had
> they chosen to be.
A good point and I'd bet if Honda-san was still around their initial
presence would have been quite different, both then and now. And speaking of
now, I seriously doubt they'd of found themselves on the short end of the
pony stick..
>
> At the moment their problem mostly seems to be that they pretty much had
> to make major changes to their motor, given the weight penalty put on
> 800cc five-cylinder engines. The others were able to shrink their
> existing 990cc designs more effectively than Honda was able to redesign
> theirs. The chassis, while very similar in spec to Hayden's Brno bike,
> has apparently been effected by the placement of the new motor and the
> change in center of gravity. This has resulted in handling problems,
> particularly with larger or heavier riders. They're also down on power,
> which effects the larger riders more as well. And it's said that they
> have throttle control problems as well.
That pretty much goes against the, "we build a machine anybody can win on,"
doesn't it?
>
> Given these problems and obvious design intent like the minimalist
> bodywork, it seems Honda has put all its eggs in Pedrosa's basket,
> whether or not they really intended to, to this extent. Given the need to
> play catch-up, the guys on the satellite teams are mostly being ignored,
> while development impacts Repsol only. Given the points situation and the
> strengths and weaknesses of the bike and its character, one would
> absolutely expect that Honda would become focused mostly on Pedrosa, if
> they haven't already.
It's the course they've choosen and given the weight advantage Dani has, one
has to wonder if they believed it would be cheaper, or even easier..(fancy
that)
>
> I also believe the weight thing is material in their thinking on this.
> Back before the weight minimum on 500s was significantly increased in 1991
> Honda built their NSR down closer to the old minimum, some 10 kilos
> lighter than the Yamaha YZR in '90. Then there was the NS triple before
> that, and their experimentation with twins in building their 500
> production racer in the late '90s, and talk of a twin or triple for the
> 800 era. That fours and fives had the same minimum under 990 rules must
> have been THE reason they built the V5, and that a five now carries a
> 7.5kg/16.5lb penalty is at least one reason they changed to a four this
> year. So they play to the rules, and with no restriction on rider weight
> it stands to reason that they'd take advantage of that as much as they
> can.
>
> Anyway, all that seems to reflect consistent threads in their approach to
> racing, at least as far back as I go.
>
I think had the old boy still been around they wouldn't have thrown all
their marbles into the gnome rider thing, some maybe, but not all and I find
it really hard to believe he would've left a current Champion to twist in
the wind, as you and many others claim...
pablo
"T3" <spam...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:465b5b04$0$4842$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> A good point and I'd bet if Honda-san was still around their initial
> presence would have been quite different, both then and now. And speaking
> of now, I seriously doubt they'd of found themselves on the short end of
> the pony stick..
More ludicrous consipracy theories. Now it's about unofficial horsepower
limits Ducati decided to unfailry break. It would all be alright if Hayden
had gone for Ducati and happened to be winning, of course, but that's
another matter.
I think you forget that Honda has a major design discontinuity going to
800 - they changed their engine configuration. Their V5 was the best engine
back then. Their 4 isn't, it's clear Ducati now has the advantage, and given
the fact Ducati has a long and venerable history in winning motorcycle
designs and certainily have committed themselves to MotoGP I don't think
they need any unfair advantages. Eventually things will shift again and
someone else will hold and advantage, perhaps sooner than we think. But
Honda had to fundamentally rework their engine congif whereas most other
teams didn't, and I think it's obvious that.s biting them right now.
I used to think that Honda's biggest problem was that they got too many
confliciting inputs from too many riders without the ability to truly
advance the bike's design, but Ducati's success shows they have been beaten
fair and square in engineering terms, and that Ducati has the superior 800cc
concept right now. And evidence suggests Stoner is one hell of a talent, and
the rough LCR season brought him alomng and made him learn lessons that
perhaps neither Hayden or Pedrosa have had to learn. Truth is neither
Pedrosa nor Hayden seem qyuite in Stoner's league as riders right now all
things being equal. I think pretty soon Honda's budget and experience will
come to count again and make Hayden and Pedrosa more competitive.
...pablo
Mark N
> More ludicrous consipracy theories. Now it's about unofficial horsepower
> limits Ducati decided to unfailry break. It would all be alright if Hayden
> had gone for Ducati and happened to be winning, of course, but that's
> another matter.
Oh, come on, Pablo. Who said anything about fairness? It has widely been
reported that the Japanese companies agreed to a horsepower cap at 220
at the start of MotoGP, and that makes a lot of sense. That amount of
power would likely be sufficient to beat the 500s, but wouldn't
necessarily crush them, and lower power would make it easier on the
tires as well, which were not only dealing with a 20-25hp increase but
50 pounds of weight as well. That's a big jump for Michelin to deal
with. Also there was the competitiveness question, and that cap would
mean Honda wouldn't gap the field so much. Do you really believe Aprilia
made a 3-cylinder motor superior to Honda's five right out of the box? I
sure don't, I think they made all the peak power they could, damn the
rest. A year later Ducati came in and did the same, and to hell with the
rest of it. Once that happened the Japanese were forced to bail on it as
well, but it was enough to give Ducati their first win in 2003 instead
of 2005.
> I think you forget that Honda has a major design discontinuity going to
> 800 - they changed their engine configuration. Their V5 was the best engine
> back then. Their 4 isn't, it's clear Ducati now has the advantage, and given
> the fact Ducati has a long and venerable history in winning motorcycle
> designs and certainily have committed themselves to MotoGP I don't think
> they need any unfair advantages.
Again, there really isn't a fairness question, it's just the reality of
the situation. MotoGP changed the rules to "penalize" fives, which was a
very predictable thing for them to do. So Honda made changes that no one
else made, and got caught out in the process. I suspect that they also
underestimated what the others would do, as they've claimed.
Eventually things will shift again and
> someone else will hold and advantage, perhaps sooner than we think. But
> Honda had to fundamentally rework their engine congif whereas most other
> teams didn't, and I think it's obvious that.s biting them right now.
I'm not sure about that. There's an article in CN this week that talks
about there issues, and it lists a number of them - lower revs and
insufficiently sophisticated throttle control systems (unnecessary on
their V5), a change in the center of gravity due to the new motor's
placement in the chassis (up and forward). I would guess that they can
make a very competitive machine using the basic engine configuration,
but they need to work on the control systems, get more revs out of it,
and fix the chassis.
> I used to think that Honda's biggest problem was that they got too many
> conflicting inputs from too many riders without the ability to truly
> advance the bike's design, but Ducati's success shows they have been beaten
> fair and square in engineering terms, and that Ducati has the superior 800cc
> concept right now.
They do, but so does Yamaha, and Suzuki isn't far behind. Their edge
starts with the same basic design as the 990s and all the stuff that
they all learned trying to chase Honda with one less cylinder. Then you
throw in things like valve actuation differences, which mean more at
higher revs.
And evidence suggests Stoner is one hell of a talent, and
> the rough LCR season brought him alomng and made him learn lessons that
> perhaps neither Hayden or Pedrosa have had to learn. Truth is neither
> Pedrosa nor Hayden seem qyuite in Stoner's league as riders right now all
> things being equal.
Based on what? You sound like a classic front-runner, whoever is winning
at the moment is the best, so you come up with vague reasons why. All
things aren't equal, and that's why Stoner is winning. Do you think he
has three wins and leads in points on Pedrosa's Honda? How about Rossi's
Yamaha? Or anything that runs on Michelins? I certainly don't think so.
I think pretty soon Honda's budget and experience will
> come to count again and make Hayden and Pedrosa more competitive.
Well, they certainly will make Pedrosa more competitive if they possibly
can. Nicky, the absolute most he can expect is what he got last year,
and from all indications that was very little, certainly not what he
expected. I still think Pedrosa can be put back in this championship
fight by Honda (and Michelin), but the best Hayden can hope for is
eventually something to build on for next year.
Julian Bond
>I think you forget that Honda has a major design discontinuity going to
>800 - they changed their engine configuration.
>But
>Honda had to fundamentally rework their engine congif whereas most other
>teams didn't, and I think it's obvious that.s biting them right now.
It was Honda pushing for 800cc wasn't it? And 800 lets them build a V4
from the V5 keeping the same stroke, bore, pistons, cylinder head
design, cam design and so on. Everyone else kept the same basic layout
but had to downsize the engine. I can't remember when Ducati switched to
a screamer engine but that's what they're running now. Suzuki were
running air valves last year because they intended to use them this
year. But the 800 is a whole new engine and I think it's got a different
V angle. Kawasaki have switched to air valves from valve springs.
They've all had to create something new. And in some ways Honda had the
least work to do. But there's a problem. The 990 V5 had too much power
everywhere and had to be held back by the electronics making
driveability more important than outright peak power. At 800cc and
210hp, more of that power can be used more of the time, so the engines
can be in a higher mechanical state of tune. Which in turn puts more
emphasis on the electronics. There's been talk that the Magnetti Marelli
systems (used by Ducati and Yamaha) is the cutting edge and the Honda
system is the simplest and crudest.
Right now, I tend to believe the story coming from Honda. They tried to
build a bike that was nimble and handled well with enough power that was
easy to use. Unfortunately Ducati and Suzuki went for outright top speed
and have still managed to make something that handles acceptably. There
may not be any connection but this mirrors 250 where the knife edge
Aprilias have had more top speed, the Hondas have had been better in the
corners. But somewhere between theory, manufacturing, testing in Japan,
testing by their factory riders and whatever, the balance compromise has
come out wrong.
I'm getting just a little tired of the whole "Pedrosa's getting all the
attention, poor Nicky isn't getting anything" story. By his own words,
Honda have been throwing parts at Hayden. Engine, swingarm, fork clamps,
steering head angles, top fairings. He's asked for last year's frame but
been told the new engine won't fit. (Heard that before? Rossi last
year?). Across all their riders, Honda have the very lightest and
smallest to some of the heaviest and biggest. On any one weekend the
natural order has been shuffled and a different Honda rider has come out
on top with only Nakano consistently struggling at the bottom. They've
all been complaining about something on the new design.
Mark N
> It was Honda pushing for 800cc wasn't it? And 800 lets them build a V4
> from the V5 keeping the same stroke, bore, pistons, cylinder head
> design, cam design and so on.
From an article on the new Honda: "Honda's new powerplant isn't just
four cylinders off the old RCV engine. It's more extreme design than the
old 990".
Everyone else kept the same basic layout
> but had to downsize the engine. I can't remember when Ducati switched to
> a screamer engine but that's what they're running now. Suzuki were
> running air valves last year because they intended to use them this
> year. But the 800 is a whole new engine and I think it's got a different
> V angle. Kawasaki have switched to air valves from valve springs.
> They've all had to create something new. And in some ways Honda had the
> least work to do. But there's a problem. The 990 V5 had too much power
> everywhere and had to be held back by the electronics making
> driveability more important than outright peak power. At 800cc and
> 210hp, more of that power can be used more of the time, so the engines
> can be in a higher mechanical state of tune. Which in turn puts more
> emphasis on the electronics. There's been talk that the Magnetti Marelli
> systems (used by Ducati and Yamaha) is the cutting edge and the Honda
> system is the simplest and crudest.
I think that might be slightly off, the old power wasn't quite that
extreme for everyone, it wasn't in complete abundance. The V5 made the
power it needed without having to be tuned as extremely as the others,
and they could make the power they needed and smoothly all across the
powerband without cutting-edge electronics. The other guys couldn't, so
were leaning more on electronics to deal with resulting inconsistencies
or inadequacies.
> Right now, I tend to believe the story coming from Honda. They tried to
> build a bike that was nimble and handled well with enough power that was
> easy to use. Unfortunately Ducati and Suzuki went for outright top speed
> and have still managed to make something that handles acceptably. There
> may not be any connection but this mirrors 250 where the knife edge
> Aprilias have had more top speed, the Hondas have had been better in the
> corners. But somewhere between theory, manufacturing, testing in Japan,
> testing by their factory riders and whatever, the balance compromise has
> come out wrong.
Honda has traditionally gone for top peak power in the premier class, so
this situation where they're down on power is really completely new,
perhaps the first time since the NS500 triple. That I believe was a
miscalculation on their part, but it may also be revealing of problems
with their basic design. They deny that, so it's hard to say.
> I'm getting just a little tired of the whole "Pedrosa's getting all the
> attention, poor Nicky isn't getting anything" story.
Julian, you were tired of that before he was even born, anything along
those lines was always destined to get your back up...
By his own words,
> Honda have been throwing parts at Hayden. Engine, swingarm, fork clamps,
> steering head angles, top fairings.
Yes, and he's saying nothing is really working that well, because it's
all baby steps - frames with slightly different flex characteristics and
the same geometry, bodywork that is minimally larger, etc.
He's asked for last year's frame but
> been told the new engine won't fit. (Heard that before? Rossi last
> year?). Across all their riders, Honda have the very lightest and
> smallest to some of the heaviest and biggest.
That's not exactly accurate, is it? Pedrosa, Nakano, Elias and Melandri
average 57.5kg/126.5lbs and 5-4, and their tallest guy, Hayden, is only
5-8. One can easily argue that Checa (5-7, 69/152) wasn't the intent and
is just a stop-gap, the expectation was that Stoner, 25 pounds lighter,
was the guy they'd have in that seat, they made room for him and his
team the year before when Yamaha couldn't close the deal. And last year
Honda seemed quite willing to let Hayden go, reportedly offering him
only half of what Yamaha and Ducati were offering. And they have
mini-wop Dovisioso prepping in 250. In comparison, the lightest factory
team is Ducati, because of adding Stoner, and they average 5-6 and
129lbs (Repsol is 5-5 and 132lbs). But Ducati is much larger overall
because of Barros and Hofmann at D'Antin.
On any one weekend the
> natural order has been shuffled and a different Honda rider has come out
> on top with only Nakano consistently struggling at the bottom. They've
> all been complaining about something on the new design.
Pedrosa has come out on top more often than not, their top finisher in 3
of 5 races, and in one he was taken out by another rider, so the only
time he's lost to another Honda on the track was in France - in the
rain, his big weakness, and to a guy on Bridgestones. The bike's basic
bodywork design trades straight line protection/streamlining for a
larger rider (meaning small but mainstream in GP racing terms) for less
resistance side-to-side - who does that help, a larger guy or a truly
tiny guy who can hide behind that mini fairing but doesn't have the
strength/leverage to flick the old bike?
Here's another bit from that article: "The works Honda's increase in
revs doesn't seem to have brought much in the way of more power,
however; it works for Dani Pedrosa with his really light weight and
smaller frontal area, but as soon as the rider is slightly heavier or
causes more drag, the engine just doesn't have the high-rpm power to
push him through the air... Only the smaller riders appear to be able to
get something out of the bike by the end of the straights - courtesy of
their extremely small frontal area." Meanwhile, Horiike says HRC is "too
busy" to give Hayden a completely new fairing.
Julian, it seems like you're going through an awful lot of effort to
bury the obvious...
pablo
"pablo" <pab...@simplyhombreDOT.net> wrote in message
news:hoOdnSEWX7z18Mbb...@comcast.com...
>
> ... I think pretty soon Honda's budget and experience will come to count
Lucky prediction over a month ago... :-)
Mark N
> "pablo" expounds, reeking of wisdom:
>> ... I think pretty soon Honda's budget and experience will come to count
>> again and make Hayden and Pedrosa more competitive.
>
> Lucky prediction over a month ago... :-)
Yep, lucky is right, it only took a month for there to be a race where
Bridgestone went south AND Rossi DNFed - which pretty much just leaves
Honda (1st and 3rd) and Edwards (4th). But I'm still impressed that you
went so far out on a limb like that, predicting that Honda, after their
worst start in a quarter century, would actually become more
competitive. Thanks for searching for this and reposting it...