pictures of pro gas bike
Ct Jstr
the Bar & Grill gallery in the drag bike section.
http://thevirtualbarandgrill.com/gallery/bikeshow
Toni Froehling
CourtJester Racing
MANDKIM
run down as to where I am at...
1. I'm running the Dyna 2000 ignition with the Retard for the nitrous.
2. I am not only putting fuel pressure to the fuel solenoid, but also to the
carb (Dont want to run lean, if I run the bowl dry).
3. Running a Pingel thumb switch, rather than a micro switch. I would rather
hit it with my thumb in third gear..than trying not to open up the throttle too
much in first/second and hit the nitrous with the micro.
4. How much head pressure do you think is the best to run off a bottle?
5. I'm running a 2 1/2 lbs bottle....How much running time do you think that I
will have on the bottle....before I lose to much head pressure.
6. Was thinking about putting the nozzles in a 1 inch spacer plate before the
intake...rather than run them right on top of the valves. From what I
understand it is better to give it a little time in the manifold to mix and
avoid unmixed Nitrous/fuel being fed to the intake.
7. Last...What fuel and Octane do you suggest? I'm running 11:7 to 1 (or was it
12:7 to 1??)compression and a corrected of 10:5 to 1 with the cam that I am
using.
Any idea's? I will be posting some more pictures in the morning.
Thanks
Stone
Ct Jstr
>a
>run down as to where I am at...
>
>1. I'm running the Dyna 2000 ignition with the Retard for the nitrous.
How is your retard kicked in? If you don't have a schnitz box or pingel box
then you have to trigger the retard with something. I'm using the button to
trigger the first stage of retard on Becky's bike and a shift minder to trigger
a second stage. I've not rigged it that way before, so I'll have to see how it
works. Generally, the simpler you can keep it the better and I may go back to
just one stage of retard.
>
>2. I am not only putting fuel pressure to the fuel solenoid, but also to the
>carb (Dont want to run lean, if I run the bowl dry).
That's o.k., but beware that you can overpower your needle and seat with too
much fuel pressure. I run about 2 lbs to the carb (super D). Anymore and it
will dump fuel everywhere. Tom Bradford makes a better needle and seat for the
S & S units that can withstand 5 lb, I think. Two pounds kept both Super D's
and all the thunderjets full on the PS bike. I use a Holley blue pump and
bleed pressure off the line by putting a T connection in the line, after the
pump, that has a return line back to the tank. I regulate the pressure by
installing a jet in the return line, to narrow the orifice. An 80 jet works
well for my particular pump. I use a separate pump for the nitrous side, at
full pressure. A simpler system is to forget the pump for the carb side and
just use a dual pingel petcock so it still gets all the fuel it needs.
>
>3. Running a Pingel thumb switch, rather than a micro switch. I would rather
>hit it with my thumb in third gear..than trying not to open up the throttle
>too
>much in first/second and hit the nitrous with the micro.
Thumb button works fine. Generally you only want nitrous on at full throttle,
so installing a micro switch on your throttle so it will only activate at WFO
is common. On the drag bikes they run WFO just about all the time, so I don't
worry about it, AS LONG AS YOU REMEMBER TO TAKE YOUR THUMB OFF THE BUTTON. Bad
juju if you don't.
>
>4. How much head pressure do you think is the best to run off a bottle?
700-900 lbs. You can run more, but the system is less forgiving at higher
pressure. Bottle pressure is a bitch. In a perfect world I'd like 900 lbs
constantly, but its tough keeping it constant, primarly because of temperature
changes.
>
>5. I'm running a 2 1/2 lbs bottle....How much running time do you think that
>I
>will have on the bottle....before I lose to much head pressure.
>
I don't really know. The times I've run it in drag bikes we are putting lots
of nitrous in and go through nearly half a bottle in a pass. Bob Grimes can
use a full bottle at times. I'd say with street applications you've got quite
a bit of running time..enough to hole a piston anyway.
>6. Was thinking about putting the nozzles in a 1 inch spacer plate before the
>intake...rather than run them right on top of the valves. From what I
>understand it is better to give it a little time in the manifold to mix and
>avoid unmixed Nitrous/fuel being fed to the intake.
>
I've done it both ways. I prefer tapping into the manifold. I've got two sets
of nozzles in the pro gas bike, with each set about 1 1/2 inches from the head,
with nozzles aimed at the port. I ran nitrous a few years ago and did it on
the spacer. Worked o.k., but generally you want it closer.
>7. Last...What fuel and Octane do you suggest? I'm running 11:7 to 1 (or was
>it
>12:7 to 1??)compression and a corrected of 10:5 to 1 with the cam that I am
>using.
>
You can TRY it with pump premium and see how it does. Run it a couple times
and pull your plugs and check them very carefully for detonation. I ran 13:1
in the last bike and could get by with 101 octane. This bike is up around 16:1
static so I'll try VP C-14 or 15, perhaps 25. All are over 110 octane with
lots of lead. I think VP recommends C-16 for nitrous, but that's way overkill
for a street bike.
>Any idea's? I will be posting some more pictures in the morning.
I can't emphasize enough how destructive nitrous is. You absolutely have to
keep a close eye on your plugs and if there is any sign of detonation, add more
gas or take away some nitrous. I've eaten holes in pistons in a quarter mile
pass when my retard module failed.
Other than that, watch your connections for leaks. They are very common on the
juice side of the system.
The newer systems like the one from Edelbrock are way easier to manage, but
don't have quite the versatility as the old style NOS and Nitrous Express
systems have. Pick your poison.
Have fun.
>
>Thanks
>
>Stone
>
Have fun.
Toni Froehling
CourtJester Racing
Tud
> For those so inclined, posted a couple shots of Becky's new pro gas bike
up on
> the Bar & Grill gallery in the drag bike section.
>
> http://thevirtualbarandgrill.com/gallery/bikeshow
Nice pics, thanks for sharin'.
>
> Toni Froehling
> CourtJester Racing
--
Tud
SENS BS#111 LFS#32 FLF MISFIT
'70 Triumph T120R Chopper
A couple rebuild pics: http://mel.eastlink.ca/html/piston.html
MINeSWEEP: http://mel.eastlink.ca/html/nova_scotia.html
Par Willen
> stone wrote
> >1. I'm running the Dyna 2000 ignition with the Retard for the nitrous.
>
> How is your retard kicked in?
The retard is kicked in using the VOES wire. You can wire it to any type
of switch but is it even needed on that bike? I would assume you would
be using one of the top two curves and if so that retard is worth a
whole ten degrees. NOS recommends 2 degrees per 25 hp and I've seen
recommendations for less than that, wouldn't it be better to just time
the whole curve back in accordance with the above numbers and then do
dynopulls/dragstrip runs to optimize the timing settings?
> >2. I am not only putting fuel pressure to the fuel solenoid, but also to the
> >carb (Dont want to run lean, if I run the bowl dry).
Not gonna go there but I think you'd need a regulator for the part of
the system that goes to the carb as the pump probably puts out at least
4 psi. The guys racing in our league runs 9.10s with dual super D's at 2
psi, any more than that would flood the carbs after the burnout. Like
Toni already said : )
While you're at it, could be you should add a pressure watch on fuel
side as well. Wire it so that if you loose fuelpressure then the N2O
solenoid closes.
> >4. How much head pressure do you think is the best to run off a bottle?
>
> 700-900 lbs. You can run more, but the system is less forgiving at higher
> pressure. Bottle pressure is a bitch. In a perfect world I'd like 900 lbs
> constantly, but its tough keeping it constant, primarly because of temperature
> changes.
Within those limits I would say to take your pick. When you calibrate
your system you do it at a specific bottlepressure and as long as you
keep it there when you race you will be OK. The main thing is to keep
the pressure at where you calibrated it which is not too easy on a bike
with the bottle in the open so to speak. If it gets too hot in the sun,
the pressure will go up with a big risk of increasing the N2O part of
the mix which quickly leads to an increase in the piston budget. If it
gets colder than the calibration temerature, then the motor will run
rich with no problems except for bad performance. If you got the bucks,
calibrate the system at 900 psi which makes for the bottle having to be
at 83 degrees Fahrenheit and then you can use a heatingblanket
controlled by a thermostat to keep it where you want it.
> >5. I'm running a 2 1/2 lbs bottle....How much running time do you think that
> >I will have on the bottle....before I lose to much head pressure.
You saw the numbers I posted somewhere here before, a 40 hp shot could
use up about .4 lbs of N20 for every ten seconds so that would in theory
leave you with 6 to 12 runs depending on where in the run you activate
the bottle.
It's not not that simple though. I went through this with one of the
local N20-toprunners here and the problem with bottle pressure when
emptying is two-fold:
1) Basic: The bottle empties and the free volume in the bottle increases
and at a certain point the liquid N2O turns all gaseous and is of no
use. I don't know when that happens but cou could have a pressure of 600
psi but no liquid N2O left in the bottle.
2) The bottle gets real cold when it empties which adds to the loss of
bottle pressure.
These two in combination are pretty hard to measure as the problem is
that the bottle pressure goes back up to normal in just a few seconds
after you let off the button so even if you have a pressure gauge on the
bottle it's impossible to say that you did not loose pressure at the top
end of the run. Even having the gauge right in front of you is not a
guarantee for you being able to read it right, this guy runs a mid-seven
second car and has to contend with a chute and a few other li'l things
right at the line and if you're not focused on the pressure gauge when
you let off you're likely to miss the real numbers.
Loosing bottle pressure is not a dangerous thing though, it will make
the motor run rich on the gasoline side of things so all you will loose
is performance.
So, how big should the bottle be then? I have no idea. The 2.5 lbs
bottle should work for a couple of rounds but I'd keep asking around
with the above in mind and keep a close watch on the timeslips,
especially the speednumbers. I would also buy a book or two on nitrous
to study up on and start to do the calculations yourself. It's all
pretty basic stuff but if you miss the correct setup you will lose
pistons, time and money. I have "How to install and use nitrous oxide"
by Joe Pettitt which is pretty good although it's mostly all NOS and
cars but it does have a lot of very good information that is universal.
For a pretty good read go to http://www.nitrous.info The guy's gotta
good sense of humour, he put a 140 hp shot on stock GSXR Suzuki 1100
motor. And he uses a 2 1/4 lbs bottle.
> >6. Was thinking about putting the nozzles in a 1 inch spacer plate before the
> >intake...rather than run them right on top of the valves. From what I
> >understand it is better to give it a little time in the manifold to mix and
> >avoid unmixed Nitrous/fuel being fed to the intake.
Yes, the theory is that the gas gets more time to vaporize, but that is
based on a baseplate system that is well designed to distribute the mix
evenly to all cylinders. Which the NOS fogger nozzles supposedly do a
real good job of on their own and work very well tapped into the
manifold right up top of the port. I had this one up for discussion
locally a while back and was recommended to go with the manifold setup.
The somewhat awkward firing setup of a Harley motor could make for a
risk of running one of the cylinders too lean with a baseplate system.
Not sure myself but the guy I talked to was concerned about the small
plenumvolume of a Harely manifold as well. The risk is most likely real
small and not in any way proven, Edelbrock uses a a baseplate system and
it apparently works well, but I'm going with the manifold setup just to
be sure (besides, I have this thing about injecting as close to the port
as possible for poser points). I lucked out in getting the NOS kit but I
would not have purchased a baseplate system even at a better price.
YMMV and all that and I would appreciate any feedback on this from
anybody who's in the know. Again, I would do a lot of studying and
researching on this so you yourself have the best understanding possible
of how it all works together when you hit the switch the first time.
I've been in the books, talking to people who run very fast on nitrous,
searched the internet and been in discussion forums and seen opposite
things stated as facts that I know are not at all right.
I.e. I would not take an UglyTech engineers words as gospel for anything
like this where the wrong information can cost a lot of bucks : )
Regards
PiPPi
MANDKIM
>Ct Jstr wrote and Par came in with this....so I'll just answer both at the
same time.
>
>> stone wrote
>
>> >1. I'm running the Dyna 2000 ignition with the Retard for the nitrous.
>>
>> How is your retard kicked in?
>
>The retard is kicked in using the VOES wire. You can wire it to any type
>of switch but is it even needed on that bike?
I would assume you would
>be using one of the top two curves and if so that retard is worth a
>whole ten degrees. NOS recommends 2 degrees per 25 hp and I've seen
>recommendations for less than that, wouldn't it be better to just time
>the whole curve back in accordance with the above numbers and then do
>dynopulls/dragstrip runs to optimize the timing settings?
Still more questions to be answered. The guy that I'm talking to thinks I need
the retard.
>
>
>> >2. I am not only putting fuel pressure to the fuel solenoid, but also to
>the
>> >carb (Dont want to run lean, if I run the bowl dry).
>
>Not gonna go there but I think you'd need a regulator for the part of
>the system that goes to the carb as the pump probably puts out at least
>4 psi. The guys racing in our league runs 9.10s with dual super D's at 2
>psi, any more than that would flood the carbs after the burnout. Like
>Toni already said : )
Thanks for that bit of info. I was tossing around 4psi. I already knew that I
needed a regulator for that.......By the way, I do have the dual Pingel
petcock.
>
>While you're at it, could be you should add a pressure watch on fuel
>side as well. Wire it so that if you loose fuelpressure then the N2O
>solenoid closes.
Already have that covered. I also want to figure something out that .....If I
bust a belt/chain while on the juice, when it hits the rev limiter...it will
kill the motor completely. Not hit back on once it gets below the rev
limiter.....and boom.
>
>> >4. How much head pressure do you think is the best to run off a bottle?
>>
>> 700-900 lbs. You can run more, but the system is less forgiving at higher
>> pressure. Bottle pressure is a bitch. In a perfect world I'd like 900 lbs
>> constantly, but its tough keeping it constant, primarly because of
>temperature
>> changes.
>
>Within those limits I would say to take your pick. When you calibrate
>your system you do it at a specific bottlepressure and as long as you
>keep it there when you race you will be OK. The main thing is to keep
>the pressure at where you calibrated it which is not too easy on a bike
>with the bottle in the open so to speak. If it gets too hot in the sun,
>the pressure will go up with a big risk of increasing the N2O part of
>the mix which quickly leads to an increase in the piston budget. If it
>gets colder than the calibration temerature, then the motor will run
>rich with no problems except for bad performance. If you got the bucks,
>calibrate the system at 900 psi which makes for the bottle having to be
>at 83 degrees Fahrenheit and then you can use a heatingblanket
>controlled by a thermostat to keep it where you want it.
Where do you get those heat blankets and how do they work?
>For a pretty good read go to http://www.nitrous.info The guy's gotta
>good sense of humour, he put a 140 hp shot on stock GSXR Suzuki 1100
>motor. And he uses a 2 1/4 lbs bottle.
>
Thanks for the info, I'll go check it out.
>> >6. Was thinking about putting the nozzles in a 1 inch spacer plate before
>the
>> >intake...rather than run them right on top of the valves. From what I
>> >understand it is better to give it a little time in the manifold to mix
>and
>> >avoid unmixed Nitrous/fuel being fed to the intake.
>
>Yes, the theory is that the gas gets more time to vaporize, but that is
>based on a baseplate system that is well designed to distribute the mix
>evenly to all cylinders. Which the NOS fogger nozzles supposedly do a
>real good job of on their own and work very well tapped into the
>manifold right up top of the port. I had this one up for discussion
>locally a while back and was recommended to go with the manifold setup.
I have the Nos system and it also recommends that it be introduced on the
manifold. I just keep hearing different theories on nitrous and where to place
the nozzles. The guy that I am getting my info from runs a 7 second multistage
nitrous chevy Citation and just recently picke up a full sponsor with new car.
Dont know if that means anything other than just question mark on this project.
I'm going to take both your information and do the next best thing...Call NOS
and have a long talk with them. I want to put the nail in this one so that I
can move on.....I will post thier info and lets compare notes.
>The somewhat awkward firing setup of a Harley motor could make for a
>risk of running one of the cylinders too lean with a baseplate system.
>Not sure myself but the guy I talked to was concerned about the small
>plenumvolume of a Harely manifold as well. The risk is most likely real
>small and not in any way proven, Edelbrock uses a a baseplate system and
>it apparently works well, but I'm going with the manifold setup just to
>be sure (besides, I have this thing about injecting as close to the port
>as possible for poser points). I lucked out in getting the NOS kit but I
>would not have purchased a baseplate system even at a better price.
Now I'm totally confused ; ' )
Thanks guys
Stone
Ct Jstr
>The retard is kicked in using the VOES wire. You can wire it to any type
>of switch but is it even needed on that bike? I would assume you would
>be using one of the top two curves and if so that retard is worth a
>whole ten degrees. NOS recommends 2 degrees per 25 hp and I've seen
>recommendations for less than that, wouldn't it be better to just time
>the whole curve back in accordance with the above numbers and then do
>dynopulls/dragstrip runs to optimize the timing settings?
I have found that taking away more timing works well. I've seen systems set
with a schnitz box that take away as much as 20 degrees, although that's a bit
much. I found that taking away 6-8 degrees was working quite well on a fixed
system. In general, on the new bike, I want the full retard to be in high
gear, so dropping 4-5 degrees at the initial hit and another 4-5 at full tilt
boogie was the basic plan. I'll just have to do a couple runs and see how it
works.
The other thing is regulating fuel pressure. If you take your pump that has 4
lbs pressure, and T off of it, and install a jet in the bleed off line, you can
regulate your pressure at whatever you want. To get it right, you need to put
a pressure guage in for checking the pressure, but once you have the right jet
in the bleed off, it will stay almost constant. Lee Urich has a readout for
fuel pressure in his RacePak computer system and has a constant 2 lb from start
to finish, no matter how he jets the carbs.
have fun
Toni Froehling
CourtJester Racing
Par Willen
> >While you're at it, could be you should add a pressure watch on fuel
> >side as well. Wire it so that if you loose fuelpressure then the N2O
> >solenoid closes.
>
> Already have that covered. I also want to figure something out that .....If I
> bust a belt/chain while on the juice, when it hits the rev limiter...it will
> kill the motor completely. Not hit back on once it gets below the rev
> limiter.....and boom.
Hm... If you get that one to work, make sure it includes shutting off
the fuelpump and both solenoids.
> Where do you get those heat blankets and how do they work?
They are in the regular NOS catalog. Basically a thermostatically
controlled heating blanket that is made to wrap around a bottle.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/NOS/NOSCA/BttlHeat.html
> I'm going to take both your information and do the next best thing...Call NOS
> and have a long talk with them. I want to put the nail in this one so that I
> can move on.....I will post thier info and lets compare notes.
Yes, please post all of what you get from those guys.
Regards
PiPPi
MANDKIM
Ok, first things first.
The dyna has a variable retard system. If you run it on curve 3, when using the
Retard...It will retard the timing 7 degrees. If you use curve 4 it will retard
the timing 5 degree's. So with Toni's input of 6 to 8 degree's....I'm ok to run
curve 3.
Next.....fuel pressure. I spoke to the head tech for NOS at Holley today. He
point blank told me that it was not necessary to run fuel pressure to the carb.
That the carb that I am using could handle it (Mikuni 45mm). Is this gospel?
Dont know? He told me that I most likely will be hitting the button in third
gear and didnt feel that I would empty the floatbowl. The dual Pingel that I am
using, gave me bonus points as well.
Nozzle placement.....Stick it right on top of the valve is what he said. I told
him of my concerns about using the longer run to get the fuel/Nitrous to mix.
And here is what he said.......Problem with running it out that far out is that
the cyclinders will run different. One will be lean and the other will not be
as lean (We all know this) and by injecting the nitrous into the intake
annnddd....with their nozzle design (Nitrous shoots threw the gas) they use it
would not be a problem with the gas/nitrous mix.
Still confused....
Stone
Ct Jstr
>the
>Retard...It will retard the timing 7 degrees. If you use curve 4 it will
>retard
>the timing 5 degree's. So with Toni's input of 6 to 8 degree's....I'm ok to
>run
>curve 3.
>
I've not used that particular Dyna, but if he means that it will advance to,
say 35 degrees, then gradually back off, that's fine. If he means that you
just have a total of 7 degrees less advance, you'll be losing some at the
launch, where you want more lead in the motor. It will certainly work, but may
or may not be the most efficient way to go. As long as your dropping advance
when you hit the bottle, at least you'll save some parts.
>Next.....fuel pressure. I spoke to the head tech for NOS at Holley today. He
>point blank told me that it was not necessary to run fuel pressure to the
>carb.
>That the carb that I am using could handle it (Mikuni 45mm). Is this gospel?
I would say its fine, as long as you have the dual pingel petcock
>Dont know? He told me that I most likely will be hitting the button in third
>gear and didnt feel that I would empty the floatbowl. The dual Pingel that I
>am
>using, gave me bonus points as well.
>
I would agree. I don't run a pump on the nitro bike and I go through a gallon
of fuel in a pass. However I do have extra inlets into the bowl.
>Nozzle placement.....Stick it right on top of the valve is what he said. I
>told
>him of my concerns about using the longer run to get the fuel/Nitrous to mix.
>And here is what he said.......Problem with running it out that far out is
>that
>the cyclinders will run different. One will be lean and the other will not be
>as lean (We all know this) and by injecting the nitrous into the intake
>annnddd....with their nozzle design (Nitrous shoots threw the gas) they use
>it
>would not be a problem with the gas/nitrous mix.
>
As I said before, I've done it both ways and do prefer putting them up on the
manifold where you can slightly change the direction of the nozzles. I would
think in a street applcation you'll be fine either way.
>Still confused....
>
>Stone
>
>
Toni Froehling
CourtJester Racing
Par Willen
> Responding to Toni and Pippi....
["YMMV", "I'm no expert", "this post probably contains a shitload of
errors", plus all the regular disclaimers.]
> The dyna has a variable retard system. If you run it on curve 3, when
> using the Retard...It will retard the timing 7 degrees. If you use
> curve 4 it will retard the timing 5 degree's.
Be careful on the "variable" bit, the Dyna2Ki tech sheet specifically
states that "When [VOES is] activated, timing will be limited to 25
degrees regardless which advance curve is selected" i.e. the VOES retard
is really not variable except for its relation to the choosen curve. No
matter the curve you choose, when the VOES switch is thrown then the
final timing advance is always an *absolute* 25 degrees. I.e. the VOES
retarding 10, 7, or 5 degrees is only *relative* to the total advance of
whatever curve you're using at the time, you'll always end up with 25
degrees total advance no matter the curve.
> So with Toni's input of 6 to 8 degree's....I'm ok to run
> curve 3.
It's not that simple. Keep in mind that the different curves you can
choose between not only changes the relative amount of retard that the
VOES switch makes for. What is a shitload more important is that the
different curvesettings change what the advance curve looks like
including the total advance without the VOES retard kicked in. Without
the VOES switch on, the lower the curve you choose the less total
advance plus the advance curve is also slower the lower curve you use.
Not saying that Curve 3 is not the best for your motor, nobody in the
whole world knows that at this point in time, but chances are that using
the different curves simply for the purpose of getting a specific
*relative* advance could mean that you'd not be running an optimal
timing when not on the N2O, in your case during 1st and 2nd gear, which
means less than max engine output in the most important part of the run.
It could also be that the 25 degrees total advance we're talking about
when on VOES and N2O is far from optimal in your setup and in that case
you're screwed for the whole run.
These assumptions are just that, assumptions. They all have to be kept
in mind but it's still guesses. Guessing on things like this is not the
best for getting the most out of a motor or keeping it in one piece when
on N20. If I were building that motor of yours and had the bucks I would
take the whole thing to the dyno and find out the optimal timing without
nitrous and with nitrous and then sit down at the kitchen table with an
expert, the dynosheets, and the Dyno 2Ki spec sheet and decide on which
curve to use and then do the last fine tuning at the track using the
speednumbers on the timeslip.
> Next.....fuel pressure. I spoke to the head tech for NOS at Holley today. He
> point blank told me that it was not necessary to run fuel pressure to the carb.
> That the carb that I am using could handle it (Mikuni 45mm). Is this gospel?
> Dont know? He told me that I most likely will be hitting the button in third
> gear and didnt feel that I would empty the floatbowl. The dual Pingel that I am
> using, gave me bonus points as well.
I'd be very hard pressed to argue with the NOS head tech guy.
> Nozzle placement.....Stick it right on top of the valve is what he said. I told
> him of my concerns about using the longer run to get the fuel/Nitrous to mix.
> And here is what he said.......Problem with running it out that far out is that
> the cyclinders will run different. One will be lean and the other will not be
> as lean (We all know this) and by injecting the nitrous into the intake
> annnddd....with their nozzle design (Nitrous shoots threw the gas) they use it
> would not be a problem with the gas/nitrous mix.
We told you so : )
Did you discuss bottle sizes?
Regards
PiPPi