Pirates, Profiteers and Online Auctions
Robert McNay
several olders models that I have always wanted for reasonable prices and
found nothing but reputable people. But, I'm totally off them now because
greed has taken them over. In the past couple of months I have lost every
auction I put bids on, mostly to profiteers who care nothing about model
kits except as a commodity.
Case in point, there is currently a Heller 1/400 HMS Hood on eBay that had
sat at $45 for 3 or 4 days before I found it. Some folks may be familiar
with my previous appends to this group lamenting the fact there are no large
scale Hood kits available, at least that don't cost twice my monthly rent.
So, I put a bid in at $60 and then got outbid at $75 by the same person that
put in the original low bid. So, I rebid at $80 only to have the same guy,
outbid me again at $100. Well, that put me out of it. Then I noticed that
this guy had a pretty high evaluation number after his name, meaning he had
dealt with a lot people on eBay. I did some more poking around and noticed
hat several of the past auctions I had lost on ship models, I was outbid by
this same guy.
Well, further poking I found that this jerk ( he goes by "shipwright" on
eBay, his email name is "jreyna") has a personal website that he sells ship
kits on, jacked way up price-wise. He's reselling the Heller Hood for $150
on it, no wonder he can afford outbid anything reasonable I might put up.
I know everyone is entitled to make whatever profit they can get and if some
sucker wants to pay $150 for the Heller Hood when, before Mr. "jreyna", it
could be had for $75 to $85 on eBay, more power to them. It just pisses me
off to no end that highway robbers like this can ruin a good thing like
online auctions, and cut modelers who can't afford to spend hundreds of
dollars, like myself, out of the hobby.
This guy, IMHO, is an a**hole.
Mike
> This guy, IMHO, is an a**hole.
Well I can relate to what you are saying but as the saying goes,
'Them the breaks'. It would be nice if 'real' modellers were able to get
these kits a reasonable prices but in an auction whoever puts up the
most moola wins regardless of what he intends to do with the kit. I just
recently bid on a few kits on E-bay for the first time and got out bid
on all of them except for the one I thought I had no chance on which I
ended up getting for what I think is a very good price. As for the
others I had bid on I would have liked to have gotten them but since I
didn't want to put up the cash.....
--
Mike Dougherty
Toronto, Ont.
Canada
IPMS C4928
"Uh oh....."
- famous last words
Kent Kinal
Mike wrote in message <37198C...@lunaticfringe.org>...
Gotta agree with Mike here. What we all have to remember is that there are
two types of people who are buying plastic models. Those of us who build
(at least occasionally) and those who collect. The collectors quite often
have a different set of values than the builders, and we're both competing
for the same resources. Yeah, some of the collectors have deep pockets, and
you will lose to them not only at auctions , but at shows, antique markets ,
etc. It's just part of the deal. Also, before you complain about pirates
and profiteers, remember we have all gotten bargains where we paid
significantly less that a kit was worth for whatever reason. That could be
construed by some as being at least a pirate. Relax about what you lost, and
remember that e-bay is just a tool. Before you throw it away, ask yourself
with what you are going to replace it?
just my$.02
Kent
The Bell Family
know the real worth of it. Ignorant people are capable of great things.
Last week I noticed that the Minicraft 1/144 B-377 Pan Am Stratocruiser
currently being offered by Squadron Mail Order for $9.95 was being auctioned
on ebay, and the current bid was slightly under $20 !!
Mark
Robert McNay wrote in message <7fbfg1$k07$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
Maiesm72
kits.
Their first offering to the customer was a "Very Rare" Academy Minicraft Boeing
B-17C that had just been released that month.
They were asking $50 for a $12.99 kit. I went to another shop and borrowed a
half dozen of the kits, returned to the San Rafael shop and asked if they would
give me $25 for each, since they could sell this "rare" kit for $50 each.
This wasn't a matter of the shop owner mistaking a new kit for a rare kit. He
was blatantly trying to scam his customers. Word got around really fast. Local
modelers who had been meeting in the back room stopped coming in. Local schools
who used the shop for crafts dumped him. In three months he was out of
business.
Saw his name lately on E-Bay selling craft stuff left over from his attempt at
scamming the public. Prices were current retail. He wasn't getting any bids.
Some people never learn.
Tom
rfranklin
"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his
greed." (appologies to the ghost of K. Marx).
WRF
"Nooooooo! Stop me before I build again."
jerry 47
several times. Only once did I pay an outrageous price. (this was more a
pride thing than a value thing.)
Jerry 47
rfranklin wrote in message <371b4209....@news2.recorder.ca>...
Frank Tauss
>
> This is just free enterprise at its finest:
>
> "From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his
> greed." (appologies to the ghost of K. Marx).
>
No apologies to that nasty old bastard needed. According to him
everything belongs to everybody. Steal his quotes at will.
John Heck
make more money the pie does not stay the same, it gets bigger.
John
jerry 47 wrote:
> The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. FWIW, I've outbid shipwright
> several times. Only once did I pay an outrageous price. (this was more a
> pride thing than a value thing.)
> Jerry 47
>
> rfranklin wrote in message <371b4209....@news2.recorder.ca>...
> >This is just free enterprise at its finest:
> >
> > "From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his
> >greed." (appologies to the ghost of K. Marx).
> >
> >
Jon Fincher
<Cpt....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
><snip>
>It just pisses me
>off to no end that highway robbers like this can ruin a good thing like
>online auctions, and cut modelers who can't afford to spend hundreds of
>dollars, like myself, out of the hobby.
>This guy, IMHO, is an a**hole.
I believe this is what I call a free market. The price of things is
dictated by what people are willing to pay for them. You weren't
willing to pay that much, so you lose the auction. I'm not trying to
be antagonistic, but everyone who's bid on eBay has lost a few
auctions with "reasonable" and "above reasonable" bids at least once.
The only reason he can afford to buy kits at those outrageous prices
is because people are willing to buy them from him at more outrageous
prices. The way to deal with him is to not buy anything from him, and
spread the word about him. Word of mouth advertising is the best
advertising there is - ask Ron Popeil.
And please don't stop participating on eBay because of this one guy.
There are two major reasons:
1) Your bids keep his bids high, and his profit margin low, and will
help drive him out of business eventually.
2) eBay (and other auction sites) are the closest thing to a real free
market we have. Things may turn out to be a bit more expensive at
first, but you also get to deal with people who deal honorably (I've
never had a bad experience yet, unless you count being outbid with 5
minutes to go a bad experience).
----------------------------
-- Jon Fincher
-- Rama Lama Vroom Vroom
-- Temple of the Flaming Pipes
--
-- nospam...@drizzle.com
-- http://www.drizzle.com/~warlok
-- (remove nospam_ to reply
--
-- IPMS Seattle
-- http://www.blarg.net/~ipmssea
----------------------------
Jon Fincher
wrote:
>This is just free enterprise at its finest:
>
> "From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his
>greed." (appologies to the ghost of K. Marx).
I've always been fond of "Caveat Emptor". Best free market advice
I've ever found....
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
I read and re-read your post with an open mind. I've gotten into
Ebay a little bit and have been pleased with what I've seen and bid. On
one hand you're sore because you don't have as deep pockets as the fella
who outbid you. There's nothing wrong with that - if I had more in my
slush fund, I'd be buying more. The problem is the other guy's money is
just as green as yours. If he's got more than you, you've got to get
more. While I understand and concur that his methods are questionable
and he may be an a**hole as you espouse, he has recognized that there
are bigger fish who'll buy his kits from his website.
To drive the prices up artificially as he's done, so his profits can
be greater is not immoral or even criminal. He'll probably get his
asking price from some unsuspecting sucker who'll be drawn in by words
like 'rare' or 'one-of-a-kind'. My brother wants me to build a Hood for
him. He's a classic example of the type of pidgeon who'll pay
overinflated prices such as this. For me, a little education goes a
long way.
I don't think there's an easy answer for you or anyone else in
similar situations (and I fear there are many). There's been a lot of
talk of the infamous Tom Cristofferson (sp?) and his legendary selling
techniques. Perhaps time will catch up with Mr. Reyna and mark him a
pariah in the modeling circles as well.
Ebay is a very seductive website and the clientele run from the
'babe-in-the-woods' types to knock-down, drag-out professionals. Set
limits for yourself and remember that a fool and his (or her) money is
soon parted. What goes 'round comes 'round, rest assured.
Regards,
--
Frank
IPMS/USA 20352
"I'm a real boy!"
- Pinocchio
*****************************
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
CAD Drafter/CAFM Administrator
University of Scranton
Scranton, PA USA
kran...@uofs.edu (work)
fran...@usnetway.com (home)
(717) 941-7898 - voice
(717) 941-6220 - facsimile
Jeff J
> On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:22:24 -0500, "Robert McNay"
> <Cpt....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
> >It just pisses me
> >off to no end that highway robbers like this can ruin a good thing like
> >online auctions, and cut modelers who can't afford to spend hundreds of
> >dollars, like myself, out of the hobby.
> >This guy, IMHO, is an a**hole.
> I believe this is what I call a free market. The price of things is
> dictated by what people are willing to pay for them. You weren't
> willing to pay that much, so you lose the auction.
>
> -- Jon Fincher
All this is telling of the fact that while most of say we believe in free
market, some only believe in it as long as it benefits them personally -- as
soon as it hurts them in any way, they curse it and call people who take
advantage of it profiteers, scoundrels or in this case an a**hole. The guy
can buy the ship for any price he wants if he feels like he can sell it for
more than he paid (who took the time to set up the website where he does
so?) This happens in the stock for the very medium he is using, e-bay,
every single day. People pay ridiculous prices (based on traditional
securities analysis) for EBAY because they feel someone will pay more than
they did -- the "greater fool.". If they sell higher, they are being
rewarded not for hard work (which capitalism never rewards as highly as good
ideas), but for extraordinary risk -- they risk being the one left holding
the bag when the stock crashes (when people figure out that ebay has a $23
billion market capitalization, but only $40+million in income) and the
internet hoopla blows over.
And to say that not being able to buy a couple different ship kits because
you are being outbid in e-auctions (there are other avenues for obtaining
OOP kits) is forcing you out of the hobby is ridiculous.
Jeff
Stefan P. Banaszak
Bill Banaszak
James Woody
Aurora kit that I needed for my collection and because I 'really' wanted it
I placed my high bid at $100 and I still lost. So much for deep pockets....
Jon Fincher wrote:
>
> I believe this is what I call a free market. The price of things is
> dictated by what people are willing to pay for them. You weren't
ThomasV12
>several olders models that I have always wanted for reasonable prices and
>found nothing but reputable people. But, I'm totally off them now because
>greed has taken them over. In the past couple of months I have lost every
>auction I put bids on, mostly to profiteers who care nothing about model
>kits except as a commodity.
While I think leaving the hobby because you were outbid on eBay is drastic (I'm
sure you've reconsidered by now) you may find solace in a humorous commentary
written by a friend of mine about this very topic. Simply substitute the kits
he sites with the kit of your choice......
http://members.aol.com/ratfink2/private/unglu/unglu.html
Lifes too short to let being outbid ruin your day.
Regards,
Thomas
--
Bonedigger's Styrene Archaeology
http://members.aol.com/thomasv12/toc.html
Braungart
>Aurora kit that I needed for my collection and because I 'really' wanted it
>I placed my high bid at $100 and I still lost. So much for deep pockets....
Having been sniped and doing a little sniping on my own, I know how you
feel. Most of my bids (I generally deal in one a month - period, otherwise too
expensive) end around nine o'clock evening, local time. I wind up hovering in
front of the moniter from eight forty-five on, until I know how things are
shaping up. I did manage to grab a couple of Aurora kits, but from your price
description, not one of your bids, by paying attention, but have lost as many
as I got, being sniped at the last minute myself. "Say le Guerre!"
Anyway, having been to numerous live auctions, I know that this is how
those things work as well. Try again, or hope Polar Lights reissues the kit
that you want!
Regards,
John
\^|^/
(o o)
-------------o00o-(_)-o00o-------------
Shane & Lorna Jenkins
>
> While I think leaving the hobby because you were outbid on eBay is drastic (I'm
> sure you've reconsidered by now) you may find solace in a humorous commentary
> written by a friend of mine about this very topic. Simply substitute the kits
> he sites with the kit of your choice......
>
> http://members.aol.com/ratfink2/private/unglu/unglu.html
>
> Lifes too short to let being outbid ruin your day.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
Hi Thomas,
Great article, I really enjoyed it.
Shane
D2Kos
>never had a bad experience yet, unless you count being outbid with 5
>minutes to go a bad experience
At least you had five minutes to decide to raise your bid. Try getting outbid
with ten SECONDS to go sometime...
Kos
Jon Fincher
wrote:
>Jon, try being out bided with 5 seconds left by a sniper.... I bid on an
>Aurora kit that I needed for my collection and because I 'really' wanted it
>I placed my high bid at $100 and I still lost. So much for deep pockets....
I've been sniped before - I know the feeling. I've also sniped
before, so I know who the other guy feels as well. The times I've
sniped, I've patted myself on the back for moving quickly and
decisively. The times I've been sniped, I comforted myself by finding
the kit I was bidding on listed elsewhere for less than it finally
sold for (that happens more often than you would think).
I see eBay as being like the NYSE or Chicago commodities market. If
you're not in the right place at the right time with the right stuff,
you're gonna lose the deal. Unfortunately, that usually means direct
participation in the auction during the last 10-15 minutes and a high
tolerance for pain, but that's what goes on in the stock exchanges
daily.
SVanaken
> If
>you're not in the right place at the right time with the right stuff,
>you're gonna lose the deal. Unfortunately, that usually means direct
>participation in the auction during the last 10-15 minutes and a high
>tolerance for pain,
more stuff snipped
This is quite true regarding E-bay. I have never gotten the bid on anything
desirable by just putting in a bid and waiting. It definitely requires you to
pay attention.
Cheers,
---- Scott Van Aken IPMS Canada 5729 ----
---- Modeling Madness Webzine ----
---- http://www.geocities.com/~scottvanaken ----
---- Fly by Nite Productions ----
Stephen B Brown
Robert McNay <Cpt....@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>... 1/400 HMS Hood on eBay that had
>sat at $45 for 3 or 4 days before I found it. Some folks may be familiar
>with my previous appends to this group lamenting the fact there are no large
>scale Hood kits available, at least that don't cost twice my monthly rent.
How big is large scale? The JSC kit of HMS Hood is 1:400 and about $18.
--
Steve Brown, N8HFI bro...@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu
http://er4www.eng.ohio-state.edu/~browns
Card Modeling FAQ: http://er4www.eng.ohio-state.edu/~browns/card-faq/
Al Superczynski
>I have never gotten the bid on anything
>desirable by just putting in a bid and waiting.
I have - I do it all the time. ;)
Al Superczynski, MFE
IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968
Check out my want and disposal lists at "Al's Place":
http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."
SVanaken
>>desirable by just putting in a bid and waiting.
>
> I have - I do it all the time. ;)
>
Well that's because you are special, Al :)
BTW, why weren't you at the Memphis contest. I was disappointed that you didn't
show!!
cheers,
Al Superczynski
>...why weren't you at the Memphis contest. I was disappointed that you didn't
>show!!
Would you believe I forgot it about till the day before, my car had a
dead battery, and Carol and I had a misunderstanding about me using *her*
car?? ;-p
Rats.......
Robert McNay
in an act of blowing steam out of frustration. Please forgive the venting.
A couple of things, I never said I was leaving the hobby, I'm just off
online auctions. At least for awhile.
To the person who called one of my comments ridiculous, I never said I was
being "forced out" of the hobby, I said I was being "cut out" of the hobby.
Let me put it this way, if all a person had a real interest in was, say,
Ford Mustangs but in some freak alternate reality, no one made models of
Mustangs, do you think that person would get into building models? Probably
not. He's been "cut out" of the hobby because there would be nothing of
interest for him in it.
By dealers cornering the market on what few kits do interest me and charging
prices that I can't afford for them, I have been effectively "cut out" of
the hobby.
Rob Mc.
ThomasV12 wrote in message <19990419211555...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>While I think leaving the hobby because you were outbid on eBay is drastic
(I'm
>sure you've reconsidered by now) you may find solace in a humorous
commentary
>written by a friend of mine about this very topic. Simply substitute the
kits
>he sites with the kit of your choice......
>
>http://members.aol.com/ratfink2/private/unglu/unglu.html
>
>Lifes too short to let being outbid ruin your day.
>
>Regards,
>Thomas
>
Robert McNay
have built some myself. But to me a paper kit is not a real model kit. I
have seen a lot of beautiful paper kits but the just can't be made to look
realistic because so much of the detail is just printing on paper.
There's also something about paper that you just can't do complex curves of
like a ship hull properly. The paper can't curve right due to the nature of
the medium.
I do appreciate the suggestion, though. Thanks.
Rob Mc.
Stephen B Brown wrote in message
<7fih4a$26m$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
Mike
>
> This is quite true regarding E-bay. I have never gotten the bid on anything
> desirable by just putting in a bid and waiting.
I did exactly this last week, my first E-bay experience and of the five
or six kits I put a bid in for I ended up with the one I wanted the
most(and expected to get the least) for a much lower price than I
expected.
Ron Smith
willing to pay then wait 6 or 7 days, got 3 sweet models, 3 from Al
Superczynski. In the process I lost 4 bids, but the prices went too
high for my blood.
SVanaken wrote:
> This is quite true regarding E-bay. I have never gotten the bid on anything
> desirable by just putting in a bid and waiting. It definitely requires you to
> pay attention.
> Cheers,
>
Peter Nebelung
>While I think leaving the hobby because you were outbid on eBay is drastic (I'm
>sure you've reconsidered by now) you may find solace in a humorous commentary
>written by a friend of mine about this very topic. Simply substitute the kits
>he sites with the kit of your choice......
>
>http://members.aol.com/ratfink2/private/unglu/unglu.html
>
>Lifes too short to let being outbid ruin your day.
>
>Regards,
>Thomas
Very true. That commentary hits it right on the nose. I have been
bidding on E-Bay for about a year and a half, having completed about
50 deals, both buy(85%) and sell (15%). I too have been zorched by
snipers (Goes with the territory), but have long since come to the
conclusion that "Buyer Beware" is the best logic here. I have paid
premo price for some of the Aurora airplanes and Lindberg ship kits,
because I wanted them, but balk at paying more for a monogram kit than
I would pay at the local show. Sometimes I get a really good deal,
like 9 kits for 60 bucks, but more often I pay over much for a kit,
because I want it. I'm a slow learner, it costs me. Especially since
I'm Canadian, dealing in a piss miserable currency. I guess what honks
me off the most is the scam artists and the over use of the word
"Rare". Like the the kit is so rare I have 6 of them in the local
store? Like I said, Buyer Beware.
Just remember, P.T. Barnum said it best,"There's a sucker born every
minute"
Peter
John J Fleming
>
> Gawdz, I must be priveledged as all I did was enter the most I was
> willing to pay then wait 6 or 7 days, got 3 sweet models, 3 from Al
> Superczynski. In the process I lost 4 bids, but the prices went too
> high for my blood.
Count me in on that aswell then. I just started at eBay Monday. And out
of the 10 items bid on, 3 went out of my ranger, I won 2, and am waiting
on the others. The 2 I won, I got for less than I would have expected.
And the others, well, maybe a little more. But then agian, I WANT them.
So, as it goes, its not what its worth, its what its worth to YOU!! But
or not, its your choice. But, buyer beware. Do your homework. ANd look
at other sources for your desired kit.
Later...
Jon Fincher
<ron-half...@dalhraidia.org> wrote:
>Gawdz, I must be priveledged as all I did was enter the most I was
>willing to pay then wait 6 or 7 days, got 3 sweet models, 3 from Al
>Superczynski. In the process I lost 4 bids, but the prices went too
>high for my blood.
I'm finding that the best way to get good models at reasonable prices
and not get sniped on eBay is to model things no one else wants to...
like pre-WWII Johan car kits.... Hasegawa cars.... Williams' Bros.
airplanes....
Bill Michaels
about snipers "stealing" your kit in the last seconds. You're supposed
to bid the most you're willing to pay for an item. If someone outbids you,
in theory they've gone higher than you wanted to pay to begin with.
"But what if someone beats me by 50 cents", you say. "If I had known it was
going to go for only 50 cents over my bid, I would have raised $1." Two
problems with this rationale:
1. You should ask yourself this question before you bid. Remember, if
you're bidding against another person, one of you will win the item for the
minimum increment over the other-- in other words, one raise over the other
person's last bid. If you bid $20, but will somehow feel cheated if the
item goes to someone else for $20.50, then maybe you should have bid $21 to
begin with. At some point you have to say "Enough!" I'm just suggesting
that you do this rationally, ahead of time.
2. Just because someone beat you by 50 cents, doesn't mean that was their
max bid. Consider this scenario:
You are high bidder on a kit. Your max was $20, and you are currently the
leader at $13. I come along, in the moments before the auction ends, and
decide I'll go up to $30 for this kit, 'cause I just gotta have it. The
auction ends with me winning the kit for $20.50. (Fifty cents higher than
your max.) "Unfair!", you wail, "I would have raised to $21 if I had known
you were going to steal it at $20.50".
Now consider the same scenario- except I try to grab it at $14. I place
my bid, but you still win the auction, for $14.50, 'cause you placed your
initial bid high enough.
IMHO, the only way to buy on Ebay is to place a realistic bid early, then
check back after the auction is over to see if you won. You can decide
early on how important an item is to you, and you won't get carried away in
a bidding frenzy at the end of the auction. I've won some, lost some that
way, but only once did I allow myself to get suckered in to paying, in
retrospect, too much. (1 retrospect= $1.43 US dollars.)
Just my opinions....
D2Kos <d2...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990420112442...@ng38.aol.com>...
D2Kos
>minute"
Or every minute and a half (Canadian). :>)
Kos
Dave
>> >It just pisses me
>> >off to no end that highway robbers like this can ruin a good thing
like
>> >online auctions, and cut modelers who can't afford to spend
hundreds of
>> >dollars, like myself, out of the hobby.
>> >This guy, IMHO, is an a**hole.
>
is
>> dictated by what people are willing to pay for them. You weren't
>> willing to pay that much, so you lose the auction.
>>
you (or me or somebody else) is willing to pay. I have a bookcase
given to me by my Grandma, valued at $1400.00, she paid $12.00 for it,
before she got married, 85 years ago. And the reciept is there to
prove it. Now THAT'S hiway robbery.. :)
Dave
Ron Smith
pieces of pallets and three squares of marbel for $2000 like I was
offered.......I think it cost me $50 for all the non-scrap materials
including sandpaper, etal. and maybe 80 hours labor (would have been
much less but I did all with hand tools except for some power sanding).