Future of Plastic Models?
Robert W. Hall
releases, lack of inventory at discount stores, and several articles in the
literature. I think one problem for the future of the hobby is the limited
involvement of younger people. It seems from the literature and the subject
matter that the majority of modelers (at least car/truck modelers, my genre)
are 35 and up.
It seems to me that there are very few modelers my age (28) and younger.
Of course, what with all the other diversions/distractions people have today
(TV, the Internet, etc..) modeling has to compete with.. Also, younger
people seem generally not to be interested in hobbies that require hours of
careful effort to recieve pleasure (as opposed to mindless
instant-gratification video games)..
For me, I've been a car nut since childhood and have built models for 20
years. But I've had very little time the last 10 years, what with college,
grad school, work, girlfriends, skiing, golf , 1:1 cars, diecast car
collecting, and other diversions pulling at my time but I still buy plenty
of models (even if my build rate is very, very low..;-))
I hope the hobby has a long future, as I plan to keep building and restoring
model kits until I'm old and gray. I support my local hobby shops, love the
aftermarket resin products, etc..
Robert Hall
Colorado Springs
Mrkmrsk <mrk...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990621221105...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is
downtrending -
> any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating
the
> hobby?
Ron Smith
kit they'll not only think is cool, but is actually buildable by them.
I had a dad and two kids in tonight, one just wanted a plane (he was
maybe 5) and the other knew he wanted a jet with lots of bombs. I had
the kid point out what he thought was cool (all 1/32 or pricey 1/48
kits) and discretely asked dad what price range. The I took little
"Johhny" into the oldies room that also has used kits.......I pointed
out some kits that were in his price range *and* easily built by a kid,
he ended up with a Hasegawa Sepecat Jaguar with a shark's mouth marking
(he liked that it looked mean) for well under his max price. Dad then
got some glue and we picked out the correct acrylic paints for the
exteriors of both kits.......kid one got the Revell-Germany Me-262. For
what was the price range for one kid, both kids got a kit they liked,
glue and 5 bottles of paint. All it took was about 25 minutes of my
time on a slow night, a little thought on my part and a dad willing to
buy his kids something....hopefully we have two kids started on a great
hobby.
Mrkmrsk wrote:
>
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is downtrending -
> any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating the
> hobby?
Ron Smith
Rama Lama Whome Nawnotme
Temple of the Chartreaux, Hitchcockwise of the Pustule of Political
Sillyness
Maker of the Mysterious Black Boxes and Bender of the Sacred Tron Guides
Matt S.
If we could clone you and place your clones in hobby shops around the
country, like a certain shop in Garden Grove, CA, more people would be
building molds.
I know I am going to get killed for this, but how many models of a W.W.II
fighter can they release. Why can't some of the bigger model companies
import some of the harder to find aircraft.
My favorite subject is helicopters, but it is next to impossible to get some
of the helicopters flown by the ex-Soviet Union. But unless I order from
overseas from a small Eastern European company.
Just a thought,
Matt Shropshire
Loyal minion of the Model God
"All worship the Model God"
Ron Smith wrote in message <376EFF20...@dalhraidia.org>...
Steve Bamford
that works there that can't say anything except snide remarks. He's trying
to be funny/witty but only ends up insulting everyone he comes into contact
with. I avoid the guy like the plague whenever I go into the shop.
Thankfully there is another guy that is first rate and always willing to
bend over backwards to help out a customer with a question. Nothing beats a
well stocked first rate shop with helpful employees that love the hobby.
Steve Bamford
Rama Lama Do Dah Day
Official Temple Historian
Grand Creator of :-ş on RMS
Northern Temple
Canada
Jeffery S. Harrison
> (TV, the Internet, etc..) modeling has to compete with.. Also, younger
> people seem generally not to be interested in hobbies that require hours
of
> careful effort to recieve pleasure (as opposed to mindless
> instant-gratification video games)..
>
agree with it). I don't think that lack of "instant gratification" has
anything to do with it because building models is instantly gratifying. When
I was a kid I couldn't wait to go buy my next model so I could start
building it. I loved building and enjoyed every second I spent working on
those models. It didn't matter how good or bad the kit was (I didn't know
any better) and I didn't care about how accurate it was (who cares about
accuracy when you're 9 or so?), I just couldn't wait to start building. Fit
problems and accuracy issues never became a problem until I was already
hooked on the hobby and by that time fit and accuracy were simply a
challenge to overcome--It wasn't until I got "old and lazy" that I started
complaining about such things :). A couple of years ago my nephew magically
started building models (I have no idea how this came about because I live
4000 miles away and never actively pushed the hobby to him--I am actively
encouraging him to continue though) and I see the same enthusiasm in him
everytime he works on a new model. He gets glue all over the place and gets
paint on the windows and leaves brushmarks in the paint but when he's done
he thinks they look great (of course I agree with him and then when we get
to build together I quietly show him what I do that makes mine look better
than his--meaning that he knows mine look better and when he watches me do
something I tell him what I'm doing, I never say "do it this way so your
models won't look so bad anymore").
Ok, I'm getting off the track here. What I see is not simply a decline in
modeling but more a decline in interest in anything that requires active
participation and imagination. The trend seems to be that people (not just
kids) want to be entertained more than they want to entertain themselves.
This I see as a bad thing because that also stunts things like imagination
and a whole host of other things that I feel are important.
I'm wondering all over the place here so I'll just be quiet now.
Jeff
IPMS something or other
jasper
>
> The following two statements are BOTH true.
>
> 1. The plastic modeling hobby is dying.
>
> 2. The plastic modeling hobby is in a golden age.
>
> Plastic modeling is dying as a mass-market hobby. The fundamental reason is
> that kids have moved on. I don't believe that kids are more into instant
> gratification, less interested in history, etc. etc. than in the past. What I
> do believe is that there is a menu of entertainment options open to kids today
> that is unprecedented; that almost all kids find some of that other stuff more
> fun that modeling; and that kids 20 or 30 years ago, had they (that is, we) had
> the same options, would have felt the same way. But the explanations are
> beside the point, which is that kids no longer model, for whatever reason.
>
> Plastic modeling is in a golden age as an adult hobby. The menu of stuff that
> is out there for the skilled modeler with an adult's budget is incredible in
> both variety and quality. Model manufacturers have become leaner and smaller
> operations now that they cater to a niche adult market rather than the mass of
> youth. There is a level of output, which they have pretty much now reached, at
> which they can stay healthy, although the fate of the retail sector is much
> less certain.
>
> August
I have read most of the comments to this subject. my observations bring
me to the conclusion the the only reason the the hobby would be dying is
there is not much encouragement for younger modelers, because some of us
old guys are telling beginers that the cheap kits are not accurate and
are hard to build. We have to encourage them to build a model not on how
good the model is. I have seen young kids be told all of the things to
change to make it accurate when we should just let them build it any way
they want just like we did when we were starting out. If we treat
beginners as we conduct our model building they will get discouraged and
go play games on the computer because no one will tell them how to play
it. They just want to build the model and enjoy the fun of building it,
I have seen one of our local experts get a kid lost as to what he wanted
to build because they think that every body builds for contests and
accuratism. If we fill kids heads with all that kind of mumbo jumbo
until it pours back out of their ears they problably think they are not
good enough and loose interest very quickly, I know because I have
witness this attitude in hobby shop all over our city. But there is
still interests among the younger generation as they do have fun
building models when they hve nobody else to play with. Bruce
Mrkmrsk
JHBMCUNNY
JC
Austin,Tx.
Maiesm72
I would love to see a concise, readable, description of how the hobby is
"downtrending".
I can only speak to 1/72 scale aircraft and 1/72-1/76 vehicles, but at least
these parts of the hobby are at an all time boom in selection, new releases,
accessories and the like.
Tom
Dtsquad
>kit they'll not only think is cool, but is actually buildable by them.
You are truly a dying breed in the retail hobby shop. Most shops I go to the
employees are more interested in just hanging out instead of helping some one
look for a particular item. If you do make an inquiry about a particular item
you are looking for they usually reply with "oh I don't know modelling my
specialty is this or that...not plastics.
It is rare to find people working in a hobby shop that actually try to
promote model building amoung new prospective
customers. They are just there because they get a pay check to stand around.
DMeriman
However, if you are in one of the many HobbyTown USA franchise shops you will
be more likely to find a knowledable and helpful counter person. Anyway, that's
been my experience in three states.
David D. Merriman, Jr.
r/c submarines, 'the only way to fly!'
"Barns! Cargrave!... Come back here!!!"
Mike
I use Future on my models all the time.......Oh, I thought it said 'on'
not 'of'.
Can't say what the future will be but there seem to be few kids in the
hobby compared to when I was a kid. I now rarely see kids in hobby shops
and 20 years ago I rarely saw adults in them.
I noticed a couple weekends ago when my IPMS chapter had a display at
an airshow that about half the people had no idea what a model was, they
thought they were die-cast. I can't remember how many times I was asked
"Did you paint them?" or "Where did you buy them?". About every other
person asked if they were for sale and when I said no but that they
could build it themselves they lost interest. These all seemed to apply
to mainly younger people(under 30) but there were a surprising number
who were older. We had unbuilt kits on hand to show what the finished
models started out as and they would look at them like it was some newly
invented thing. It did seem to give them a better appreciation of the
work involved in the finished models though. This really threw me for a
loop because when I was a kid I don't think there was one boy my age
that hadn't at least built one model and there were even quite a few
girls who built models too.
I think that western society is too oriented towards instant
gratification. Why make it yourself when you can buy it already done? I
also think that most young(er) people(jeez, I'm only 32!) have no
interest in history which was probably the biggest reason I started
building models. This might explain why model cars still seem to sell
well, everybody's still interested in cars! I also seem to remember TV
commercials for models when was a kid, maybe the hobby needs more
advertising to attract youth to the hobby. The excellent kits now
available and their resulting higher prices may be pushing the hobby out
of reach for the kids that may have an interest. When I was a kid I
bought just about everything I needed to build models with my own money
and I rarely paid more than $10 for a kit, usually closer to $5. I don't
know if a $40 Tamiprogawa kit is out of reach for kids in this
situation.
Anybody have a crystal ball?
--
Mike Dougherty
Toronto, Ont.
Canada
IPMS C4928
low guy on the pole at
IPMS/"Buzz" Beurling
http://HedgehogHollow.COM/ipms/
BrianC6234
my own money and I rarely paid more than $10 for a kit, usually closer to $5. I
don't
know if a $40 Tamiprogawa kit is out of reach for kids in this situation.<<
Mike - I don't think it's that the models are too expensive. It seems that kids
are able to buy plenty of videogames. And those things cost around $50.
Maybe the problem is more that many parents don't spend much time with their
kids. Maybe if they would help their kids with a model it would get them closer
and get them both interested in a new hobby.
Brian
Jonathan O'Connor
There is more of everything than there has ever been and the quality of what is
new is incomparable.
JO'C
Peter Khor
><snip>
>> (TV, the Internet, etc..) modeling has to compete with.. Also, younger
>> people seem generally not to be interested in hobbies that require hours
>of
>> careful effort to recieve pleasure (as opposed to mindless
>> instant-gratification video games)..
>>
>modeling but more a decline in interest in anything that requires active
>participation and imagination. The trend seems to be that people (not just
You know, one of these days the cliche of having too much time/patience that
is represented by "building a ship-in-a-bottle" is going to apply to plastic
modeling ;-)
Anyways, I've recently had a wave of nostalgia and was getting back into a
couple of hobbies, only to find that they've disappeared, dying, or
re-invented for current situations. For example:
- War gaming (eg, Advance Squad Leader). AH sold to Hasbro; most all of the
games are no longer available. Who has time for a long drawn out,
turn-based game? (don't even mention PBM!)
- Electronic Kits (eg, HeathKit). Why build when you can buy it assembled
for less?
- LEGO. Gone are the intricate Technic sets, complex town sets, etc.
Current offerings are simplified to "reduce building time".
Admittedly I am in the "I want it NOW" crowd at times; I'll never spend more
than 2 months on any project/hobby (there goes kit planes, car restoration,
or even super-detailing my plastic models).
I remember fondly who it was that got me started into plastic modeling - of
all people my grandmother! I must have had my first kit when I was about 8
and had one or two kits (chosen by her!), every month for the next 8 years!
Most everything was either Matchbox or Airfix. I continued a couple more
years, then it died down for a few years, and for the past 4 years I've
picked it up again. Recently I've been actively getting kits that I had
when I was younger (re-issues, and this time I'll get 'em painted right) -
or wanted to get (eg, B1-B, Saturn V) but was beyond my pocketbook. Boy
it's really fun! Anyways, from what I've seen these days, have to say that
future of plastic modeling seems to be only getting better.
Peter Khor
Mike
>
> Ron,
>
> If we could clone you and place your clones in hobby shops around the
> country, like a certain shop in Garden Grove, CA, more people would be
> building molds.
Better than turds I guess.;)
tony gee
collect more than I build (I need to get more space for built kits).
With all the state-of-the-art detailing in models these days, I think
eventually the youngsters will one day come around and take the hobby
more seriously.
tgifri...
Art Murray
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is downtrending -
> any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating the
> hobby?
I wouldn't recommend it as a long term career move for any young person. It's a
dying hobby. The IPMS shows I attend are not exactly overrun with young people.
The next ten-fiften years will be very interesting. During that period, the huge
stashes of kits we Baby Boomers have hoarded will start flooding the market. (It's
actually started already). There will be very few buyers. Those that do buy will
be paying minimal prices. The market will be saturated.
Just a few random thoughts on the matter.
Art
AHorv43767
Ralph R. Forehand
>
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is downtrending -
> any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating the
> hobby?
Hmmm. The "State of the Plastic Model Hobby?"
When I first got involved with the hobby, and IPMS/USA, back in 66, we
had
no flat paints, some after market decals, very cheap domestic kits, very
limited and hard to get foreign kits, only a couple hard to find
modeling magazines, only a couple mail order sources, about 1500 members
of IPMS/USA, a few local chapters, and rare, very rare, contests, (If
the IPMS/USA National drew over 200 attendees it was considered a hugh
success) and no means of communications other than snail-mail.
Now, We've got plenty of kits, after market items and publications from
all over the world, easily obtained from more mail order sources than we
can keep up with - in summary all the supplies anyone needs.
IPMS/USA has grown to 5,000 plus members, has over 200 chapters, over 50
IPMS (Local, Regional, and National) contests scheduled across the US at
any one time, and very importantly a strong Internet presence to steer
modelers to IPMS chapter and events. Communications are no longer
limited to smail-mail but go worldwide with e-mail conveniently,
rapidly, and inexpensively.
All the above say the hobby is flourishing and we need not worry to much
about it. This is not to say we shouldn't work at bringing encouraging
new modelers to
participate (IPMS/USA does this with our Industry supported
"Make-N-Take" program for youngsters) and current modelers through our
IPMS/USA Internet presence. Modelers are finding Local Chapters and
other supporting info on our web pages.
The industry benefits by more modelers, more hobby supply demand, ergo
more sales.
The hobby and industry is here to stay and are steadily growing.
Participate and Enjoy,
Ralph R. Forehand IPMS #1592
IPMS/USA Internet Coordinator/WebMaster
http://www.ipmsusa.org
Ken Durling
are buying models - I see them ALL the time in the shops I frequent. But they
buy a lot more cars than anything else. No, they don't buy $50 1/72 Fujimi
Japanese training flying boats. Which is just to say that like any other
business, this hobby has "sectors."
I agree that we are in a Golden Age. The amount of stuff available is just
staggering. So what are you guys saying? That it's a Yin-Yang thing? That we
are going to experience a glut and then a crash? What August said was very
interesting - we DO have unprecedented entertainment options - but that also
extends to the technological options we have, and I think we can get more kids
involved in the "cool" aspect of what we do.
I liked Ron's story, too. I go to about 4 hobby shops in my area regularly,
and at only one of them do I find sales staff that are not helpful. Most are
of the same breed as Ron, at least when they're not too busy selling Hot Wheels
(@#$%^!!), or those $40 1/32 slot cars (which ARE beautiful.)
Having been involved off and on in the hobby for some 35 years, I have only
seen an increase in quantity and quality, and as far as kids' involvement goes,
it was always a somewhat unusual thing to do - the skills to do really
beautiful models are by and large adult skills. They take a LONG time to
develop. Sure we've seen some very talented teens, but the patience and
discernment that I think most of us call "modeling" is an art. In that light
it would be tempting to assert that with the plethora of "shake and bakes"
there has been a decline in real "modeling skills," i.e. scratchbuilding, but
I'm not so sure about that, either.
And who says adults aren't kids, anyway?
That's about all I can muster before my morning cup o' and a few games of
computer pinball, so . . . ;-)
Ken Durling
IPMS NorCal
PPSEL
Just Plane Crazy
fl...@airplane.har
>I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is downtrending -
>any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating the
>hobby?
Well, I've stated many times before why this hobby is declining, and
have gotten flamed for it too, so be it. It's NOT about a lack of
'instant gratification', but rather gratification in general -- the
very reason for any hobby, no matter which one it is.
There is gratification in getting the kit. There is gratification in
assembling it. There is gratification in painting and decalling it.
And there is gratification in finishing it. There are *many*
*instances* of gratification all along the way, each new one better
than the last, from start to finish.
The problem is not that videogames are more instantly gratifying. The
problem is that most kids DON'T KNOW that model kits are gratifying
while they DO KNOW that videogames are!
The reason they don't know how gratifying model kits are is because,
while they see MANY ***ADVERTISEMENTS*** for videogames, they see
virtually NONE for model kits -- so right there, there's not much of a
comparison and model kits are at an automatic disadvantage from the
beginning. That's the first FATAL mistake.
When I got started building kits in 1962, there wasn't much in the way
of advertising either. However, plastic model kits were everywhere, in
grocery stores, drug stores, toy stores, gas stations, five and dime
stores, liquor stores, department stores, mom and pop street corner
variety stores, hardware stores and even museums, in addition to
hobby shops. In other words, it was pretty difficult to go into just
about ANY kind of store and NOT be able to get a model kit, or two, or
three. That clearly indicates that indeed, plastic model kits once HAD
(PAST tense) a strong presence -- something just about as good as
advertising. It should also be clearly obvious, just from looking at
the kit boxes themselves, that mass media advertising of plastic model
kits was NEVER INTENDED in the first place. They were always a
point-of-sale item -- which is exactly why there was such cool artwork
on the box -- a fighter plane with guns blazing, an enemy plane
nearby, often on fire, having been hit by the kind of plane whose
representative kit was inside that colorful box. Same for warships,
very colorful and impressive -- perhaps even a bit larger than life --
staring kids right in the face and virtualy screaming; "BUY ME!"
And buy them, we DID (PAST tense again) -- because at that time, a
plastic model kit cost the SAME as a gallon of gasoline (another
petroleum product) for the family car. Even in my family, which was
always hurting for money, it was easy to rationalize the purchase of a
model kit, and sometimes even more than one. We didn't go 'joy riding'
much so given a choice between using up a gallon of gas to ride around
and staying home to build a new model, the choice was obvious -- so
just about every week, a new model kit came into the house --
definitely something to look forward to -- and VERY gratifying.
If funds were particularly low, me and my siblings would go 'pop
bottle hunting' along the midway and in trash cans.
Returnable-for-deposit pop bottles would earn us two cents each, so
after about an hour or so, when I had collected from 20 to 30 of them,
and turned them in to the local grocery store, off I'd go next door to
the dime store -- and walk out with yet another plastic treasure. No
wonder why plastic model kits WERE (PAST tense again) so popular back
then -- because WE COULD (PAST tense) ACTUALLY ***AFFORD*** THEM!
Today, the price of a plastic model kit can seriously compete with
that of a week's worth of groceries, utility bills -- or an entire
tankfull of gas for the family car. Is it any wonder then that a
viedogame cartridge of similar price would be a better risk than the
possibility of a kid ruining a kit -- and then having to replace it,
OVERpaying not once, but TWICE?
Ruining a kit while introducing a youngster to models WAS (PAST tense)
NOT a problem when they were AFFORDABLE -- heck, some kids actually
set their completed kits on fire or blew them up with firecrackers!
Care to let a kid do that to a $30 or $40 kit NOW? In other words,
OVERpricing kits further and further out of reach is the second FATAL
mistake, and combined with a virtual total lack of advertising,
constitutes the ONE-TWO PUNCH that's putting this hobby DOWN FOR THE
COUNT!
So THERE is why this once popular hobby is declining -- the SYNERGETIC
effects of LOW VALUE, caused by OVERpricing and LOW INTEREST, caused
by lack of ADVERTISING. And it didn't happen overnight either -- it's
been going on for at least three decades. What scale model
publications were available during the heyday of plastic models? Were
they even needed -- THEN -- or are publications like FSM really little
more than a feeble, last-ditch effort at 'life-support' for a DYING
hobby? Think about it!
It's entirely possible that WE ARE THE *LAST* GENERATION OF MODEL KIT
BUILDERS! The prices of kits and accessories most definitely reflect
ADULT, NOT CHILDHOOD FINANCES. And model-related publications reflect
adult interests too. What does THAT tell you? Hasen't the handwriting
been on the wall long enough?
So there, in my humble opinion, are the CAUSES for the ENDING of the
hobby of plastic model kit building. As for REJUVENATING this hobby,
if it's not already too late, the word; REJUVENATE is the clue. The
word means to RESTORE to YOUTHFUL condition -- best done by RESTORING
this hobby to the YOUNG. Just as we discovered the hobby, young people
today must also be ABLE to discover it as well. This also means
bringing back the VALUE that we once enjoyed as we bought one kit
after another -- because we could actually AFFORD to. In other words,
THE PRIMARY GOAL ***MUST*** BE TO BRING PRICES DOWN TO EASILY
AFFORDABLE LEVELS -- particularly for CHILDREN!!!
Back when plastic model kits were virtually everywhere, it was ONLY
because retailers could AFFORD to stock them without going broke! I'm
always hearing from my local hobby shop how expensive it is to stock
model kits -- and this is most likely also the reason why so many kit
builders, myself included, have a collection of model kits laying
around. Because of their enormous expense, they are looked upon more
as an investment than a few CENTS worth of molded polystyrene --
something to be held on to because of the money tied up in them. And
while I always found it repugnant to burn or blow up finished models,
they should at least be priced low enough so that kids CAN do such
things with them if they want to -- without going broke!
We NEED to bring the latest state-of-the-art technology to bear
directly on the problem of high prices AND quality. In other words, WE
NEED TO RESTORE ***VALUE*** in this hobby if it is to survive, much
less actually grow! I find it absolutely insane that technology can
and does bring the cost of so many other things way down -- but that
somehow it can't work for plastic model kits. Why would ANYONE believe
that? I certainly don't, and won't! But unless there are others of
similar convictions in sufficient numbers to make a difference, the
day WILL come when we'll be able to do little more than only read
about and look at pictures of model kits -- way back when there USED
to be such a hobby!
The choice is YOURS!
Ron Smith
JHBMCUNNY wrote:
>
> I am impressed with you efforts. You deserve a "pat" for that one!
PS- I try to do the same for adults as well.......gets to be hell on
busy nights.
Ron Smith
"Matt S." wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> If we could clone you and place your clones in hobby shops around the
> country, like a certain shop in Garden Grove, CA, more people would be
> building molds.
Thanks, but I don't think the world is ready for that many clones of me
on the loose.......:)
> I know I am going to get killed for this, but how many models of a W.W.II
> fighter can they release. Why can't some of the bigger model companies
> import some of the harder to find aircraft.
IMHO the recent releases of most WWII fighters have been major
improvements on what has been released before. That said, let the
importers do the importing and the makers come up with new kits, even if
they have to dig up some obscure subject.
> My favorite subject is helicopters, but it is next to impossible to get some
> of the helicopters flown by the ex-Soviet Union. But unless I order from
> overseas from a small Eastern European company.
AFAIK most of the Soviet copters have been done in the past 5
years.......note that my knowledge is sparse on the subject and gleaned
mainly from Discovery or History channels, which are usually on while I
build. I'm waiting for a decent SH-60 in 1/48 myself, with all the
LAMPS goodies.
Ron Smith
Dtsquad wrote:
> You are truly a dying breed in the retail hobby shop. Most shops I go to the
> employees are more interested in just hanging out instead of helping some one
> look for a particular item. If you do make an inquiry about a particular item
> you are looking for they usually reply with "oh I don't know modelling my
> specialty is this or that...not plastics.
> It is rare to find people working in a hobby shop that actually try to
> promote model building amoung new prospective
> customers. They are just there because they get a pay check to stand around.
Thanks. All we do is plastics and all the guys are supposed to try and
help the customer.........I do however have to admit my ignorance on
cars, ships and armor, but if you know who makes it, I will look it up
and order it for you.
Frank Falcon
Some of you have been building models since you were kids, but a lot of us took a
break for many years. I used to build like mad when I was a kid, but when I reached
my teens (i.e. puberty) my interests drifted to other things. It was only after I
got married, had kids, and time to settle down again that I got back into it.
I don't know many kids who just got into the hobby by accident. My parents bought
me my first kit. I bought kits for my 3 kids when they were old enough. I got my
youngest son one of those cheapo robots (the kind molded in color with crappy
stickers instead of paint). He took it upon himself to trash the stickers and paint
his own detail so the model would look "cooler". All three model to some extent,
but friends, parties, and having fun take precedence. I think, however, if you give
kids a start now, there's still hope.
Mrkmrsk
>The industry benefits by more modelers, more hobby supply demand, ergo
>more sales.
>
>The hobby and industry is here to stay and are steadily growing.
Not that I doubt your viewpoint, it's just that the sales figures I've seen
from both manufacturers and retailers (granted, these are mass merchandisers
like WalMart/Toys R Us, not hobby stores) indicate that youths are not
participating in modeling like they were even as recently as 10 years ago. I've
seen 3 locally owned hobby stores go out of business in the last 5 years in the
town where I live, a midwestern city of 60,000+ a minimum of one hour drive
from the nearest larger city. The crux of my query was what needs to happen in
order to rejuvenate interest among youngsters in modeling, because it just
doesn't seem to be there anymore.
Jonathan O'Connor
Ken Durling wrote:
> And who says adults aren't kids, anyway?
>
> Ken Durling
> IPMS NorCal
> PPSEL
> Just Plane Crazy
To paraphrase Winston Churchill....
Never, never, never, never , never GROW up!
JO'C
allenlaw
Frank Falcon wrote in message <376FB2A0...@earthlink.net>...
>
>
>Some of you have been building models since you were kids, but a lot of us
took a
>break for many years. I used to build like mad when I was a kid, but when I
reached
>my teens (i.e. puberty) my interests drifted to other things. It was only
after I
>got married, had kids, and time to settle down again that I got back into
it.
Lets all be careful here that we don't make the mistake of observing a hobby
going through change, and conclude that the hobby is dieing. Kids are still
very much interested in models, and in my humble opinion, their interest is
about at the same level it was for us when we were kids. Its just that
we're not recognizing how they are demonstrating their interest.
I still have recollections of my going to model shows when i was a teenager,
and feeling totally out of place, because everyone there seemed real old to
me, and there weren't a lot of people there my age. Now, 30 years later,
when I go to model shows, I usually see about a dozen or so teenagers,
usually there with their dad's who have entered models in the contest. From
my perspective, this is an improvement from 30 years ago.
Sure kids aren't as interested in super detailing a model as we are. But
I'm glad about that. Stop to think about everything a teenager has to worry
about, with getting into college, finding some kind of career path that will
provide them with what they believe they need, and then after college, and
finding a job, getting a family started and securing a home for that family.
This is a hobby, and nothing more than that. If young people aren't
displaying an interest in this hobby the way we do, then maybe its an
indication that they have much larger priorities in their lives to deal with
than rescribing panel lines. The interest is still there, and the interest
is still very strong, but lets not get all alarmed if model shows aren't
attracting more teenagers and 20 somethings.
Richard
Ron Smith
"Jeffery S. Harrison" wrote:
> Ok, I'm getting off the track here. What I see is not simply a decline in
> modeling but more a decline in interest in anything that requires active
> participation and imagination. The trend seems to be that people (not just
> kids) want to be entertained more than they want to entertain themselves.
> This I see as a bad thing because that also stunts things like imagination
> and a whole host of other things that I feel are important.
Does that mean people no longer like to play with themselves?
Ron Smith
Frank Falcon wrote:
>
> Some of you have been building models since you were kids, but a lot of us took a
> break for many years. I used to build like mad when I was a kid, but when I reached
> my teens (i.e. puberty) my interests drifted to other things. It was only after I
> got married, had kids, and time to settle down again that I got back into it.
>
> I don't know many kids who just got into the hobby by accident. My parents bought
> me my first kit. I bought kits for my 3 kids when they were old enough. I got my
> youngest son one of those cheapo robots (the kind molded in color with crappy
> stickers instead of paint). He took it upon himself to trash the stickers and paint
> his own detail so the model would look "cooler". All three model to some extent,
> but friends, parties, and having fun take precedence. I think, however, if you give
> kids a start now, there's still hope.
Sounds familiar.......luckily many of the dads bring the kids into the
shop and the kids usually end up with a model too........I did have to
bite my tongue the day dad got a bomber and daughter (yes a girl!) got
an X-15.......
Allan Mayer
(Dtsquad) writes:
> It is rare to find people working in a hobby shop that actually try to
>promote model building amoung new prospective
>customers
Ya need to come to Granddads in Springfield VA.
they go out of their way to help everyone who comes in !!!
Since my backs gone out on me, I havnt been able to go in
and spend my $50 - $100 a month, they told me I dont have to buy
anything, just come in and talk. Actually concerned about how
things are going, and if they could help in any way, to let them know....
Allan
http://members.aol.com/Thetabat/hello.html
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
KHPD798
Brian C.
:)
(Remove NOSPAM from end of address if responding via e-mail)
KHPD798
dead compressors every 6-12 months. Yea, just a little bitter right now!!!
Brian
Joe Hegedus
Ron Smith wrote:
> PS- I try to do the same for adults as well.......gets to be hell on
> busy nights.
Saturdays are rather hectic, too! Especially demo days.
Joe
Semjase
see and nothing works on it. Prices are outragously high and the kits are
inordinately complex. Now add to that finishing materials are expensive, poor
in quality and usually not available at shops.
Sounds like an adult hobby, Kids like to build a model they can play with, not
set on a shelf as we geezers do. Yes there is a future for the hobby because
adults take up one form or another of model building because they can afford
it.
There is little to attract the young to the hobby however except for the
possible exception of model railroading. There the models actually work!
S.
Albatrosdv
parents, have a good chance here to do some bonding with the child (son or
daughter), and extend the life of the hobby.
I mean, think about it: when was the last time you heard of some
cannibal/school destroyer/crazy postal worker/other nut who was described as a
"former modeler"???
Tom Cleaver
Rama Lama Aye Ara Riter
Keeper of the Sacred Modeling Texts
Temple of the Land of Fruits & Nuts
Internet Modeler
http://www.internetmodeler.com
Visit The Aeronut - see the P-40C & F3F
http://members.aol.com/aerialnut/index.html
M.Adams
Albatrosdv wrote in message
<19990622155710...@ng-bh1.aol.com>...
>I agree here, and those of you in your 30s returning to the hobby, who are
>parents, have a good chance here to do some bonding with the child (son or
>daughter), and extend the life of the hobby.
>
>I mean, think about it: when was the last time you heard of some
>cannibal/school destroyer/crazy postal worker/other nut who was described
as a
>"former modeler"???
>
some folks, and they mentioned that he built WWII German armor, which of
course musta been why he flipped out. I think I remember hearing about it
here or on Track Link, can't recall which. Sigh. How early does Alzheimers
start? ;)
Michael
Scott M. Head
> All the above say the hobby is flourishing and we need not worry to much
> about it. This is not to say we shouldn't work at bringing encouraging
> new modelers to
> participate (IPMS/USA does this with our Industry supported
> "Make-N-Take" program for youngsters) and current modelers through our
> IPMS/USA Internet presence. Modelers are finding Local Chapters and
> other supporting info on our web pages.
I agree to a point with you Ralph, but its like anything else in business-
IPMS is a club for modelers that promotes modeling, and the program is a
good one. But IPMS is small compared to the mass of modelers that actually
build kits, otherwise the industry could not be supported at its current
abundant levels. But a wonderful program that benfits kids in so few
locations won't do the job alone. I believe that kids must be attracted to
modeling by what it offers, and must compete with the modern alternatives.
Only good marketing and advertising in a dedicated, well funded effort
have managed to do this consistently in any industry.
Most companys, except the really successful ones, put marketing and
advertising in the budget last- these get the leftover funds. Foolishness!
The FIRST priority of a business is to insure it maintains a customer base
over the long run, and marketing to kids in an all-out effort to increase
the model manufacturers' customer base should be their first priority.
We'd all probably agree that we can do without one or two less kit
releases per year from most manufacturers if they were using that capital
to fund the development of a future customer base through advertising and
marketing- it would insure that WE TOO have something new to build years
from now.
Just my .02 worth!
Scott Head
IPMS 32821
fl...@airplane.har
EXACTLY!!! I can't even get retractable landing gear and other
features that work -- but does the price reflect these shortcomings???
-- NOOOOOOOOOO!!!
charles nims
have any statistical impact on the popularity of scale models among young
people. Who could ever know if or why young people en masse attain an
interest in modelling? If young people do not develop the interest, the
hobby may die out as they reach adulthood.
That's not to say that it will die out now. As has been observed, the hobby
is actually geared to adults in many ways now. As long as manufacturers can
make a profit in this sector, they will continue to serve us. If the next
generation does not offer a market, no matter.
Far more of a threat to us as modellers now is the pervasive international
trend toward government control. There is a real chance that the products we
rely on may be legislated out of existence.
Charles
Don Schmitz
> dying hobby. The IPMS shows I attend are not exactly overrun with young
> people.
I think its too early to tell. I don't think modeling has ever been big
with young-adults (18-30 years old), I sure found more interesting
things to do then!
Right now the last of the boomers are hitting middle age (35), which
seems to be when a lot of us returned to the hobby. It will be
interesting to see if the next generation - that grew up with a lot more
alternatives to models than we boomers had - will continue to get
involved as their hair starts to turn gray...
> The next ten-fiften years will be very interesting. During that period, the huge
> stashes of kits we Baby Boomers have hoarded will start flooding the market. (It's
> actually started already). There will be very few buyers. Those that do buy will
> be paying minimal prices. The market will be saturated.
Gee, you make this sound like a bad thing... ;-)
Don Schmitz
Jonathan O'Connor
Lovers, and War Mongers. Pretty subversive we are. Insidious, too.
JO'C
Albatrosdv wrote:
> I agree here, and those of you in your 30s returning to the hobby, who are
> parents, have a good chance here to do some bonding with the child (son or
> daughter), and extend the life of the hobby.
>
> I mean, think about it: when was the last time you heard of some
> cannibal/school destroyer/crazy postal worker/other nut who was described as a
> "former modeler"???
>
Robert W. Hall
>
> I think its too early to tell. I don't think modeling has ever been big
> with young-adults (18-30 years old), I sure found more interesting
> things to do then!
True, true.. at 28 (soon to be 29)-- I enjoy modeling once in a while -- I
buy at least 75 a year but complete 1-2) but have so many other
distractions-- heck, I was doing graduate school until I was 26 (masters and
Ph.D).
The last two years I've been in the career building stage (working full-time
and new working with an Internet startup as a side 'hobby') and unsure of
where I want to live and do long term (which is the next five years from my
point of view..).
By the time I've moved into the independent consultant stage of my career
(within next 5 years) and am married, and with a house in the mountains,
maybe then I'll have more free time to model, between my favorite outdoor
pursuits of golf, skiing, rafting etc..
Robert Hall
Colorado Springs
Robert W. Hall
Frank Falcon <ffa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:376FB2A0...@earthlink.net...
>
>
> Some of you have been building models since you were kids, but a lot of us
took a
> break for many years. I used to build like mad when I was a kid, but when
I reached
> my teens (i.e. puberty) my interests drifted to other things. It was only
after I
> got married, had kids, and time to settle down again that I got back into
it.
>
I got into modeling (first with snap kits) at about age 7. My older brother
was a modeler in the '60s when he was a kid, so he gave all his old '60s AMT
builtups and started helping me build snap kits, etc. So I got hooked, and
my folks started buying me kits for birthdays, xmas, etc.
I built a bunch of models from then until I was in my early teens, dropped
out of it through high school and college. In graduate school, I picked it
back up and started building a few here and there and have been averaging
1-5 completions for the last 7 years. I started working in the real world
in 1997 and thus, now having plenty of $$$, started accumuating kits at a
rate of 100 or so per year. I've started about 40 kits since then, but only
finished 5 in the last two years-- too many other interests and career
building going on..
Now that my career is really taking off, I figure the next ten years or so
will be very busy, but by the time I'm in my mid-late 30s with thousands of
unbuilt kits piling up I will be able to build more actively ;-)
I figure this hobby is one I will participate in for life..
Rob Hall
Colorado Springs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ron Smith
Hehehehehehehehe........but at least there are a couple of us there on
demo days......but then I was giving the last demo so I didn't notice
how hectic the rest of the shop was........:)
Art Murray
> > ...> The next ten-fiften years will be very interesting. During that period, the
> huge
> > stashes of kits we Baby Boomers have hoarded will start flooding the market. (It's
> > actually started already). There will be very few buyers. Those that do buy will
> > be paying minimal prices. The market will be saturated.
>
> Gee, you make this sound like a bad thing... ;-)
>
> Don Schmitz
Don,
I've used the "next bigger fool theory" to justify all my kit purchasers to my wife. W
hat happens when she realizes that I was the Last Fool?
:-)
Art
Ron Smith
ArSeeEn wrote:
>
> Well, Ron, you've given me some ideas to take to the boss. As a part-timer, my
> time at the shop is limited, but I think some your ideas are great!
Much snippage.....
> Have Fun, and thanks, Ron!
Yer welcome Ralph......
Steve Bamford
Art Murray wrote in message <37704D8E...@mindspring.com>...
>Don,
>
>I've used the "next bigger fool theory" to justify all my kit purchasers to
my wife. W
>hat happens when she realizes that I was the Last Fool?
>
>:-)
>
>Art
She has a garage sale while you're out one day and sells the whole lot for a
buck a kit. By the way...ask her to give me a call before the big sale.
Thanks!!! :-)
Steve Bamford
Rama Lama Do Dah Day
Official Temple Historian
Grand Creator of :-ş on RMS
Northern Temple
Canada
Steve Bamford
bit surprised when I told her I was relocating the family because I found a
better hobby shop.
Steve Bamford
Rama Lama Do Dah Day
Official Temple Historian
Grand Creator of :-ş on RMS
Northern Temple
Canada
ArSeeEn wrote in message <19990622224411...@ng-xa1.aol.com>...
>Well, Ron, you've given me some ideas to take to the boss. As a part-timer,
my
>time at the shop is limited, but I think some your ideas are great!
>
>We're pretty well stocked, and we do demos (mostly airbrushing) and we'll
open
>new kits for the folks to look at. I've thought of a make and take, and
every
>now and then a Grand Master Figure modeler gives classes.
>
>Most of our demos are done at the club meetings, but trying them at the
shop is
>a great idea! We do airbrushing demos at the shop, but little else.......
>
>All of us in the plastics dept give whatever help we can to all of our
>customers. We know most of them by name, and know their areas of interest.
>I'll hold new kits for my "regulars", in fact, I routinely make lists for
who
>wants what new kit. Helps out on the ordering, very rarely have I under-
or
>over-ordered..........
>
>We are a browser friendly shop, and Sundays are the club meetings away from
THE
>club meetings--sorta worked out that way--I'm working, and most of the guys
>stop by. Soda machine is nearby, deli down the sidewalk--Some folks drop
by
>for the day, have lunch, check out the new releases.......
>
>Of course, Friday nights are Applebee's nights! My cohort, our newsletter
>editor, and whoever wants to join us meet at Applebee's for dinner. As I
said
>in a previous post in a previous thread, I have friends who happen to be
>customers. And we get more friends all the time.....
>
>Its all about making new customers informed, regulars happy, and everyone
>inspired........
>
>But another way to "keep the hobby alive" is to introduce new people,
>especially kids, to it. Tonight, my 5-year old nephew and I built a
Pro-Finish
>stock car. I had fun, and he was delighted! I'll do this again, for sure,
and
>hopefully he will start building on his own.
>
>Remember the early eighties? The hobby was "dead" then, too. To
>paraphrase,"The reports of the hobby's death have been greatly
exaggerated."
>
>Have Fun, and thanks, Ron!
>
>
>Ralph Nardone
>IPMS(USA) 33984
>President, IPMS/Flight 19
>
> "Here's the everlasting rub : neither am I good nor bad.
>I'd give up my halo for a horn and the horn for the hat I once had."
> --- Ian Anderson
Matt S.
Yeah, go ahead and tease me by bringing up the SH-60 in 1/48
Don't get me wrong, my once proud collection of at least one model for every
combat aircraft flown by the U.S. military in 1/48 and 1/72, is slowly
growing with WWII Allies and Vietnam Era aircraft.
--
Matt Shropshire
Loyal minion of the Model God
"All worship the Model God"
Matt S.
Not to mention my 1/35 scale armor.
--
Matt Shropshire
Loyal minion of the Model God
"All worship the Model God"
Matt S. wrote in message <7kpvld$p5p$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Allan Mayer
(AHorv43767) writes:
>What I
>do believe is that there is a menu of entertainment options open to kids
>today
>that is unprecedented; that almost all kids find some of that other stuff
>more
>fun that modeling;
Well my 13yr old son, has all the video games, and all the other stuff
on computer, and he BUILDS MODELS. Albeit slowly, he still builds them, and
really takes his time. Watching him make seams go away, and paint instrument
panels, is a joy to watch. Sure he gets bored every now and then, but he
gets bored with all his other games at times as well.
Then he just rotates back to modeling.
In the long run, girls are what will do him in.......
(Like father, like son)
His workbench models now, are a HC LA 5, and a HC Hurricane.
And yes, he builds only in GOD's scale !!! (1/48)
Jim Barr
Both of my younger son while at an early age decided they wanted to builds some models
like they saw Dad building and though each reached that point years apart (7 years age spread)
they both wanted to build Star Wars or Star Trek models and what are the most ill fitting mass
produced models out there, both after several tries gave up in disgust. I am convinced that MPC/AMT/ERTL
have drive more budding young models away then any other reason. I mean in this ever so correct world
you can't even blow them up with fire crackers, shot 'em up with BB guns, or set them on fire with lighter fluid
like the good old days.( I still build a mean model even with two fingers blown off, and the eye patch
because of the BB does not hinder me too much and the eye brows DID grow back in) :-)
Regards
Jim Barr
ArSeeEn
tra...@compuserve.com
Tamiya kit. I also have a detail set from Eduard and from Teknics.
I wonder about the interior colors. Would the entire cockpit area and the
area under the pilot's seat be "zinc chromate"? I have the AeroDetail
book on the Wildcat, but it does not really offer much help. They have
some good photos of contemporary Wildcats, but these show a light gray
interior.
I plan to cut away the cockpit "floor" provided with the Tamiya kit so
that the ventral windows are visible to the pilot. I also have a fuel
tank from the Teknics detail set. This goes under the pilot's seat. What
color is this? I have a black and white photo from the Wildcat "Walk
Around" book that seems to show that this tank is the same color as the
rest of the interior.
The "Walk Around" book, by the way, says that the interior of the cockpit
would be the zinc chromate.
What color should the landing gear bay interior be? Light gray? Or zinc
chromate?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
tra...@compuserve.com
Ron Smith
Steve Bamford wrote:
>
> Where is this shop....I've got the moving van all loaded!!! My wife was a
> bit surprised when I told her I was relocating the family because I found a
> better hobby shop.
We're just outside of DC, I think Ralph is down Florida way........
allenlaw
Scott M. Head wrote in message ...
>In article <376FA9...@ipmsusa.org>, ra...@ipmsusa.org wrote:
>
>> All the above say the hobby is flourishing and we need not worry to much
>> about it. This is not to say we shouldn't work at bringing encouraging
>> new modelers to
>> participate (IPMS/USA does this with our Industry supported
>> "Make-N-Take" program for youngsters) and current modelers through our
>> IPMS/USA Internet presence. Modelers are finding Local Chapters and
>> other supporting info on our web pages.
>
>I agree to a point with you Ralph, but its like anything else in business-
>IPMS is a club for modelers that promotes modeling, and the program is a
>good one. But IPMS is small compared to the mass of modelers that actually
>build kits, otherwise the industry could not be supported at its current
>abundant levels. But a wonderful program that benfits kids in so few
>locations won't do the job alone. I believe that kids must be attracted to
>modeling by what it offers, and must compete with the modern alternatives.
>Only good marketing and advertising in a dedicated, well funded effort
>have managed to do this consistently in any industry.
Does anybody know how many members of IPMS are still paying off student
loans and mortgages?
Richard
William Reece
diamond. Here is the stright stuff on the interior colors of the F4F.
F4F-3 / F4F-4; Cockpit, FS 34058 Bronze Green. The factory E&M manual
calls for Bronze Green. Some later F4F-4's may have been painted FS 34151
Interior Green. Bronze Green is the first choice. See the Squadron F4F
Walk Around. The Aero Detail No. 22 also has some good photos. The Blue
Gray over Light Gray a/c in the Walk Around book is pretty close. Also the
F4F-3 in the AeroDetail book is good in that it shows the inside of the
rear fuselage. This is all correct. The inside of the engine cowling and
main gear bay were Light Gray (actually a color called Grumman Gray which
is very, very close to FS36440 Light Gull Gray), as was the interior of
the fuselage. The only area that was Bronze Green/Interior Green was the
cockpit above and below the 'Floor'. The fuel tank under the cockpit was
light gray. The landing gear was light gray and flat black, just like the
books show. Don't forget to add the extra intercooler inside the gear bay
as Tamiya on put in the one.
William Reece,
Fly Navy!
Don Schmitz
> The reason they don't know how gratifying model kits are is because,
> while they see MANY ***ADVERTISEMENTS*** for videogames, they see
> virtually NONE for model kits -- so right there, there's not much of a
> comparison and model kits are at an automatic disadvantage from the
> beginning. That's the first FATAL mistake.
>
> When I got started building kits in 1962, there wasn't much in the way
> of advertising either. ...
Kit makers did well for so long without having to advertise that they
took it as a given that they would never have to. When it became clear
they needed to advertise, they didn't have the expertise or the money to
do it right. Hindsight is always 20:20.
> And buy them, we DID (PAST tense again) -- because at that time, a
> plastic model kit cost the SAME as a gallon of gasoline (another
> petroleum product) for the family car.
I'm not a model historian, but I have to think that if you're
remembering this right your thinking about some very early and simple
model kits. When I got started building models in the mid-late 60s,
model car kits were already in the $1-2 range, while gas was still well
under a $1/gal.
> Today, the price of a plastic model kit can seriously compete with
> that of a week's worth of groceries, utility bills -- or an entire
> tankfull of gas for the family car. Is it any wonder then that a
> viedogame cartridge of similar price would be a better risk than the
> possibility of a kid ruining a kit -- and then having to replace it,
> OVERpaying not once, but TWICE?
>
> Ruining a kit while introducing a youngster to models WAS (PAST tense)
> NOT a problem when they were AFFORDABLE -- heck, some kids actually
> set their completed kits on fire or blew them up with firecrackers!
> Care to let a kid do that to a $30 or $40 kit NOW? In other words,
> OVERpricing kits further and further out of reach is the second FATAL
> mistake, and combined with a virtual total lack of advertising,
> constitutes the ONE-TWO PUNCH that's putting this hobby DOWN FOR THE
> COUNT!
I hear this argument over and over, and I still don't buy it. Kids do
not need to build $30+ imported kits. There are lots of kits available
to kids - much better kits than those we built 30 years agos - for much
less than $30. The "drug store" (more like a small KMart with a
pharmacy) nearest my house has a small selection of models, mostly cars
and planes, all for about $10 a kit. The nearby Michael's craft store
has a fair collection of US made new-releases (again, mostly cars and
planes) and they regularly run a 40% off any-one-item coupon in the
Sunday paper, that makes a good quality 1/25 car kit or 1/48 fighter
plan cost about $8. Admittedly model prices have gone up faster than
the cost of a gallon of gas, but not all that much compared to many
other consumer goods. At the same time I was buying $1-2 models, I can
remember going to the grocery store and buying bread for a $.25 a loaf -
even store brand bread is now well over a $1 a loaf, making that $8-10
model kit sound about right.
> So THERE is why this once popular hobby is declining -- the SYNERGETIC
> effects of LOW VALUE, caused by OVERpricing and LOW INTEREST, caused
> by lack of ADVERTISING. And it didn't happen overnight either -- it's
> been going on for at least three decades. What scale model
> publications were available during the heyday of plastic models? Were
> they even needed -- THEN -- or are publications like FSM really little
> more than a feeble, last-ditch effort at 'life-support' for a DYING
> hobby? Think about it!
>
> It's entirely possible that WE ARE THE *LAST* GENERATION OF MODEL KIT
> BUILDERS! The prices of kits and accessories most definitely reflect
> ADULT, NOT CHILDHOOD FINANCES. And model-related publications reflect
> adult interests too. What does THAT tell you? Hasen't the handwriting
> been on the wall long enough?
It tells me that 40 years ago there were no "adult modelers", so no one
bothered to publish magazines or market products aimed at the "adult
market". During that time those of us who grew up with modeling have
pushed the hobby in new directions, and naturally the manufacturers have
followed along targeting that new market. That doesn't mean that there
aren't kits available that kids can afford.
> Back when plastic model kits were virtually everywhere, it was ONLY
> because retailers could AFFORD to stock them without going broke!
> ... Because of their enormous expense, they are looked upon more
> as an investment than a few CENTS worth of molded polystyrene --
> something to be held on to because of the money tied up in them. And
> while I always found it repugnant to burn or blow up finished models,
> they should at least be priced low enough so that kids CAN do such
> things with them if they want to -- without going broke!
One aspect of the growth of the hobby with adults is a demand for higher
quality kits -> kits with better accuracy, more parts, better fit. This
is the main driver of higher kit prices, as providing that higher
quality requires more skilled human labor per kit than the kits we grew
up slapping together on a rainy afternoon. Work the numbers - model
kits have never sold in such volume that the *development* cost doesn't
dominate the price of a kit.
> We NEED to bring the latest state-of-the-art technology to bear
> directly on the problem of high prices AND quality. In other words, WE
> NEED TO RESTORE ***VALUE*** in this hobby if it is to survive, much
> less actually grow! I find it absolutely insane that technology can
> and does bring the cost of so many other things way down -- but that
> somehow it can't work for plastic model kits. Why would ANYONE believe
> that?
Again, technology tends to reduce the manufacturing cost of an item much
more than it affects the development cost. Skilled labor is expensive,
and technology still can not make a person think faster. If the kit
makers could sell the exact same model kit to every modeler, I have no
doubts that that one kit could be made both better and cheaper than
current kits - but I don't think many of us would be especially happy
about that state of affairs. There are too many areas of interest in
modeling for the kit makers to take advantage of economies of scale.
> I certainly don't, and won't! But unless there are others of
> similar convictions in sufficient numbers to make a difference, the
> day WILL come when we'll be able to do little more than only read
> about and look at pictures of model kits -- way back when there USED
> to be such a hobby!
>
> The choice is YOURS!
I guess I'm confused about what it is I'm supposed to choose. I should
stop paying what I think are reasonable prices for reasonable quality
kits, from a previously unimaginable selection of subjects? I don't
think that will send the message that there is a big market for
reasonably priced model kits. While its easy to blame the kit makers, I
can't realistically see them doing much to improve things - in my humble
opinion the burden rests on all of us to promote the hobby down at the
grass-roots level which the kit makers currently don't have the ability
to do.
Don Schmitz
Frank Falcon
years, and then eventually came back when we got settled and had more money to
spend. The key point is that if the kids feel they can accomplish a basic kit,
they'll want to build more. One of my first models was Superman (I think it was
an Aurora release). I was maybe 8 or 9. It came out like crap. I could'nt afford
much paint, so I used yellow for skin tone. (yeech!). But I did complete the kit
and I felt proud that I had done it. From then on, I was hooked.
allenlaw wrote:
> <snip>
Albatrosdv
>> Ruining a kit while introducing a youngster to models WAS (PAST tense)
>> NOT a problem when they were AFFORDABLE
No one in their right mind is going to give a 10 year old kid a $30 Tamiya kit
for learning to model with. Buying the older Monogram kits - which are widely
available - is quite affordable inasmuch as their prices have gone up less than
the rate of inflation since they were developed, so they are actually *cheaper*
today than they used to be. They are just as good for learning how to model
today as they were 30 years ago and every day of the 30 years in between.
Tom Cleaver
Frank Falcon
birthday or something. Granted, modeling is not for everybody, but consider how
most of us got involved from the beginning. It was usually a present from Grandma
or Aunt Mary that sparked things off. Few kids will get interested in the hobby
without someone introducing it to them.
Mrkmrsk wrote:
> The crux of my query was what needs to happen in
> order to rejuvenate interest among youngsters in modeling, because it just
> doesn't seem to be there anymore.
Frank Falcon
customers. However, some good marketing programs could. Promoting modeling
shows, co-oping special demos and workshops (free for kids) at hobby shops and
community centers could really attract attention. With so many action figures
and toys available, the attraction has to be in the joy of building a kit.
Amatuer contests, freebies, and workshops give newcomers the opportunity to
see what it's all about and try it for themselves at minimal cost. In
addition, these programs would be more cost-effective to the hobby companies,
and reach a more targeted audience.
Scott M. Head wrote:
> Only good marketing and advertising in a dedicated, well funded effort
> have managed to do this consistently in any industry.
>
> Most companys, except the really successful ones, put marketing and
> advertising in the budget last- these get the leftover funds. Foolishness!
> The FIRST priority of a business is to insure it maintains a customer base
> over the long run, and marketing to kids in an all-out effort to increase
> the model manufacturers' customer base should be their first priority.
> We'd all probably agree that we can do without one or two less kit
> releases per year from most manufacturers if they were using that capital
> to fund the development of a future customer base through advertising and
> marketing- it would insure that WE TOO have something new to build years
> from now.
>
> Just my .02 worth!
>
> Scott Head
> IPMS 32821
Alfredo R.
I asked this same question some time ago and based upon the replies
from several people that know about this (Thanks again guys ;-) )
I will try to summarize an "acceptable" answer:
In the F4F-4 Wildcat,
The engine cowling and firewall, the area beneath the cockpit floor
(where the fuel tank is supposed to be), the fuselage interior after
the rear cockpit bulkhead, the undercarriage bay and the main
undercarriage struts are painted "Light Gray" a.k.a. "Grumman Gray"
which is a bit lighter than FS 36440.
Many people agree that this is well represented by using Testors'
Light Aircraft Gray (sorry, don't know the bottle number, but Humbrol,
Gunze and the aforementioned Testors have it in their ranges).
The lower "legs" of the undercarriage are painted in semi-gloss black,
however this is true for aircraft right out the factory, it was common
practice to repaint these "struts" the same colour as the adjacent
camouflage colour (either "Light Gray" for two tone camouflage birds
or "Insignia White" for three tone schemes)
The "depressions" for the wheels in the fuselage as well as the wheels
are painted in the same way: the adjacent camouflage colour.
The cockpit interior -the side consoles, rudder pedals, floor, seat rear
bulkhead and part of the front panel (not where the instrument faces are)
is painted "Bronze Green" for Grumman built Wildcats and "Interior Green"
for Eastern built Wildcats (General Motors perhaps?, I am not sure :-) ).
It depends on the aircraft you are modelling.
Many people agree that the closest match for "Bronze Green" is
Humbrol 88 "Matt Deck Green" IMHO this is close but it needs a bit more
blue. "Interior Green" is easy to find since several manufacturers produce
it. Of course, the instrument panel is painted flat black.
If you want to know more about this "Bronze Green" colour it would be good
if you could go to www.deja.com and do a "power search" with "Bronze Green"
as the text to find and rec.models.scale as the forum. You'll find lots of
detailed info about this written by people that really know the subject.
The fuel tank beneath the cockpit floor is painted "Dark Gray" but I don't
have more details about how dark the colour is. I personally use Tamiya
"German Gray", but that's just me and I don't think it is totally accurate.
There is a "common" knowledge that the whole "what is interior colour for
this
or that Navy or Army WWII aircraft is?" is a hard topic filled with
variations
and exceptions, the whole thing seems to be based in aproximations and IMHO
this
makes the hobby more interesting and more fun!
I hope this helps.
Alfredo R.
fl...@airplane.har
>Kit makers did well for so long without having to advertise that they
>took it as a given that they would never have to. When it became clear
>they needed to advertise, they didn't have the expertise or the money to
>do it right. Hindsight is always 20:20.
It's my observation that raising prices is what necessitated
advertising. I don't know what part of the country, or world you're
from but I recall a very similar situation with the White Castle
hamburger chain in the eastern and midwestern USA. They didn't
advertise for MANY years -- and their prices were simply fantastic (12
CENTS for a hamburger in the '60s) , as was, and still is, their
incredible, although much more highly priced taste. It was only after
dramatically raising their prices that they discovered that they
needed to advertise. And this makes sense. When something is
affordable, everyone knows about it and nobody has to have their 'arm
twisted' to get them to buy it, because anyone can easily obtain it,
which is effectively point-of-sale advertising.
>I'm not a model historian, but I have to think that if you're
>remembering this right your thinking about some very early and simple
>model kits.
If by 'simple', you mean such stuff as from Aurora, sure. But I mostly
got kits from Revell, Monogram, and Airfix.
>When I got started building models in the mid-late 60s,
>model car kits were already in the $1-2 range, while gas was still well
>under a $1/gal.
That sounds about right, although I did almost entirely aircraft, and
very little with car models other than one of the family car now and
then.
>I hear this argument over and over, and I still don't buy it. Kids do
>not need to build $30+ imported kits.
Yes, it is possible to look around a lot and maybe find something for
under $10 but around my area, it will usually end up being a Snap Tite
kit.
>There are lots of kits available
>to kids - much better kits than those we built 30 years agos - for much
>less than $30.
That's still a lot of money to take a chance on ruining and having to
replace it.
>The "drug store" (more like a small KMart with a
>pharmacy) nearest my house has a small selection of models, mostly cars
>and planes, all for about $10 a kit.
I've seen such things, occasionally -- and then, hardly a selection at
all.
>The nearby Michael's craft store
>has a fair collection of US made new-releases (again, mostly cars and
>planes) and they regularly run a 40% off any-one-item coupon in the
>Sunday paper, that makes a good quality 1/25 car kit or 1/48 fighter
>plan cost about $8.
WOW! I sure wish someone would run a sale like that around where I
live.
>Admittedly model prices have gone up faster than
>the cost of a gallon of gas, but not all that much compared to many
>other consumer goods.
I'm sure plastic models weren't the only things to go through the roof
in the price area. Coffee was one of the first, even before models
did. I sure remember that, my parents were really upset about it,
being avid coffee drinkers. Then breakfast cereals went through the
roof and never came down.
>At the same time I was buying $1-2 models, I can
>remember going to the grocery store and buying bread for a $.25 a loaf -
>even store brand bread is now well over a $1 a loaf, making that $8-10
>model kit sound about right.
I currently buy my bread from Aldi stores and pay something like 29
cents a loaf. Now, if only they'd start stocking plastic models!
>It tells me that 40 years ago there were no "adult modelers", so no one
>bothered to publish magazines or market products aimed at the "adult
>market".
From my own personal experience, I KNOW there was at least one adult
building kits, my father, who got me hooked, well, that and the fact
that I simply love aircraft of all kinds and just can't get enough of
them. I'll bet lots of other parents were building model kits for
their kids too -- until they got old enough to build their own, which
in my case, was the age of 6.
>During that time those of us who grew up with modeling have
>pushed the hobby in new directions, and naturally the manufacturers have
>followed along targeting that new market. That doesn't mean that there
>aren't kits available that kids can afford.
I'd say it's pretty obvious that the hobby has been pushed, away from
kids or anyone else who don't have a lot of money to spend to enjoy a
hobby. And that is what I truly miss most -- not having to worry about
denting the finances too much to enjoy a kit, or even two, or three.
After all, isn't that why polystyrene is used -- because it's the
cheapest (6 -7 cents a pound) material to mold a kit out of?
>One aspect of the growth of the hobby with adults is a demand for higher
>quality kits -> kits with better accuracy, more parts, better fit.
But that seems to be more of a theory instead of practice as I'm
always hearing reviews of new kits and their shortcomings. Seems that
throwing money at the problem doesn't fix it -- just lightens the
wallet.
>This
>is the main driver of higher kit prices, as providing that higher
>quality requires more skilled human labor per kit than the kits we grew
>up slapping together on a rainy afternoon.
And STILL, there's lots of filling, trimming, adjusting, reworking
this, modifying that, and even scratchbuilding to overcome the
shortcomings. I just don't get it -- and I hear about it in kit
reviews all the time.
>Work the numbers - model
>kits have never sold in such volume that the *development* cost doesn't
>dominate the price of a kit.
Okay, but in that case, I'd still like the CHOICE of VERY low-priced
kits, comparable to the prices of other things in the proportions
reflected in the '60s. If some manufacturer wants to introduce a $500
kit which they want to claim virtually builds itself, fine -- but I
still want the CHOICE of being able to get a representative kit for
$5.
>Again, technology tends to reduce the manufacturing cost of an item much
>more than it affects the development cost. Skilled labor is expensive,
>and technology still can not make a person think faster.
The Boeing 777 was built virtually, entirely on computer before
anything in the 'real' world was ever assembled and while there simply
is no substitute or escaping doing certain things 'the hard way', in
real life, this is ONLY one example of how bringing technology to bear
on the problem most likely saved Boeing literally billions of dollars
which otherwise would have had to be spent.
I remember seeing a sample of what CNC technology could do, in the
early '80s. It WAS awesome THEN. Things have since come a long way up
from that.
>If the kit
>makers could sell the exact same model kit to every modeler, I have no
>doubts that that one kit could be made both better and cheaper than
>current kits - but I don't think many of us would be especially happy
>about that state of affairs.
All they'd really have to do is sell LOTS of kits. And certain kits,
like the P-51 for instance, virtually IS sold to everyone who builds
airplane kits.
>There are too many areas of interest in
>modeling for the kit makers to take advantage of economies of scale.
Seems more like all those scales are because of the once very
economical nature of plastic models, long since past. Good thing they
started in the '50s rather than now!
>I guess I'm confused about what it is I'm supposed to choose. I should
>stop paying what I think are reasonable prices for reasonable quality
>kits, from a previously unimaginable selection of subjects?
The choice is about lowering the prices to make model kits more
affordable to the point where they will once again be stocked in many
other stores besides hobby shops -- where they can attract the next
generation of builders.
>I don't
>think that will send the message that there is a big market for
>reasonably priced model kits.
Lowering prices definitely will NOT send such a message -- but it will
help to restore interest which potentially could RE-create the big
market for models that used to exist before the prices went through
the roof.
>While its easy to blame the kit makers, I
>can't realistically see them doing much to improve things - in my humble
>opinion the burden rests on all of us to promote the hobby down at the
>grass-roots level which the kit makers currently don't have the ability
>to do.
You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! And it's no different with government either.
People will ALWAYS get exactly what they CONSENT to -- what I'm saying
that out of Principle, if nothing else, WITHDRAW YOUR CONSENT!!!
fl...@airplane.har
>No one in their right mind is going to give a 10 year old kid a $30 Tamiya kit
>for learning to model with.
By 10, they should already be seasoned experts! But no, I don't think
it would be a very good idea to give anyone without experience, such a
kit to learn (the hard way) on.
>Buying the older Monogram kits - which are widely
>available - is quite affordable inasmuch as their prices have gone up less than
>the rate of inflation since they were developed, so they are actually *cheaper*
>today than they used to be.
You must have some good stores near you. All I can find at a lower
price from Monogram is their Snap Tite stuff -- and they're $8.
>They are just as good for learning how to model
>today as they were 30 years ago and every day of the 30 years in between.
But back 30 years ago, not only was the price MUCH lower, there was
SOOOOO much more variety whereas now, the local Wal-Mart has something
like 5 or 6 aircraft in various scales, and only 3 or 4 in 1/72 scale,
and Snap Tite at that.
allenlaw
Frank Falcon wrote in message <37712A18...@earthlink.net>...
>I have to partially disagree. Advertising in this case will not attract new
>customers. However, some good marketing programs could. Promoting modeling
>shows, co-oping special demos and workshops (free for kids) at hobby shops
and
>community centers could really attract attention.
If someone could come up with a workshop where a kid could build a model,
paint it and decal it all within an hour and a half, then that would be
really something. Unfortunately, paint doesn't dry that fast. I have a 7
year old boy that enjoys building models, and tries to get his friends into
it to. Its very hard to find a kid at that age that has the patience to
keep his/her enthusiasm up through the whole process of building the model.
At that age, it seems clear to me that its the final result that matters the
most to them, and not the process of building a model that gets them going.
If anything, having to build it, is a nuisance to them. They just want to
get it done as quickly as possible so they can play with the model. When I
think back at when I was that age, I was the same way. My fther bought me
my first two model planes when I was 8 years old. He took his time with me
in helping me build the first one. After what seemed like forever to me, the
model was built, and I put a coat of paint on it, and applied the decals. I
remeber being very frustrated with the amount of time it took me to build
it. I ended up building the second one when my dad wasn't around, because I
didn't want to take my time. i thought it was a cool looking plane, so I
just glued it together in about a half hour and started playing with it.
The heck with the paint and the decals. After that it must have been several
years before I was willing to try to put paint on a plastic model, but I
kept glueing together plastic from kits that i thought were cool looking.
Then as a teenager i had to start worrying about my education and my future.
I think I built maybe two models over a 15 or 20 year period of time. Now
I'm back into again. As i look around today at kids and their interests, I
really don;t see it being much different as far as developing modeling
interests then when we were kids. To me, the important thing is that kids
are still developing an appreciation for miniature models of real
prototypes, whether they build models or not. As long as they can look
around their environment and see good quality model construction going on,
then the appreciation that they are developing now, will have a good chance
at developing into a serious interest in modeling later in their lives.
I had an opportunity recently to visit a museum that contained about a
hundred plastic model airplanes and tanks, all of which were built in the
1960's. I remember seeing the same models in the sam museum when I was a
kid, and i was in awe of the detail and craftsmanship in these models. Now,
some 30 years later, I look at the same models in that museum and wonder why
they even have them on display because they fall so far short of the current
state of the art modeling techniques and overall quality of molding that we
have today. Its up to us to build the best models we can with the materials
we have available, and then show them off so that they might make a lasting
impression on some modelers of the future. Hopefully the next generation
will look back on our modeling efforts and be jsut as amazed at how crude
our work looks compared to what they do.
Richard
marc
very powerful reason kids don't model. I've been modeling for over 25
years(with breaks like everyone else) so naturally my 11 year old son became
interested. I bought him cheap and easy kits of various subjects ,sat down
with him and helped with advice and technique ONLY WHEN ASKED. He had a
great time building and painting (first red /gold space shuttle in
history!!). But when he was done he looked at his and unconsciously compared
it to my efforts. He became frustrated with the quality of his models and
all my speeches about practice etc... were useless. If I could show him one
of my first models (K7 space station and working pirate skeleton dioramas
come to mind) I think he would be more inclined to believe me. And this
,finally, brings me to my point, everywhere kids turn they only see well
done finished models and think they will never be able to "do that". We live
3 hours away from the closest IPMS area so neither of us have been to a show
. I wonder do they showcase various skill levels there or is it only these
obsessive types on display. You know , the ones who need to be
differentiated through use of magnifying glasses by the judges ? Kids need
to be able to see their efforts are appropriate for their age and that with
practice they too can produce realistic models.
Marc
Don Schmitz <sch...@transarc.com> wrote in message
news:3770FF5F...@transarc.com...
Scott M. Head
<alle...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Scott M. Head wrote in message ...
> >In article <376FA9...@ipmsusa.org>, ra...@ipmsusa.org wrote:
> >
> >> All the above say the hobby is flourishing and we need not worry to much
> >> about it. This is not to say we shouldn't work at bringing encouraging
> >> new modelers to
> >> participate (IPMS/USA does this with our Industry supported
> >> "Make-N-Take" program for youngsters) and current modelers through our
> >> IPMS/USA Internet presence. Modelers are finding Local Chapters and
> >> other supporting info on our web pages.
> >
> >I agree to a point with you Ralph, but its like anything else in business-
> >IPMS is a club for modelers that promotes modeling, and the program is a
> >good one. But IPMS is small compared to the mass of modelers that actually
> >build kits, otherwise the industry could not be supported at its current
> >abundant levels. But a wonderful program that benfits kids in so few
> >locations won't do the job alone. I believe that kids must be attracted to
> >modeling by what it offers, and must compete with the modern alternatives.
> >Only good marketing and advertising in a dedicated, well funded effort
> >have managed to do this consistently in any industry.
>
>
> Does anybody know how many members of IPMS are still paying off student
> loans and mortgages?
>
> Richard
What??? What's that got to do with anything??? Just curious what your point is?
Scott
OXMORON1
>But back 30 years ago, not only was the price MUCH lower, there was
>SOOOOO much more variety whereas now, the local Wal-Mart has something
>like 5 or 6 aircraft in various scales, and only 3 or 4 in 1/72 scale,
>and Snap Tite at that.
30 years ago prices were lower, but so were incomes.
If you are relying on Wal Mart for hobby kits, no wonder you are unhappy with
the selection. Wally World stocks what the marketing computer and the crystal
ball tells them, not a complete hobby line. If the Bentonville computer says
"stock X in Y month" that is what they buy...or "XYZ" the new kid's movie is
due out and getting hype, they might stock the pertinent toy for that movie
release.
You go to Wal Mart to get Krylon paint, tackle boxes for modeling tools. tape,
misc. tools, duct tape for really bad screwups, and invisible thread NOT model
kits.
Also flyby, regarding RETRACTABLE landing gear, buy or borrow a copy of John
Alcorn's new Master Scratch Builders book and read up on how Arlo Schroeder did
the retracts on his Avenger.
Oxmoron1
Wal Mart Greeter in training
Smile and put a sticker on your bag!
ArSeeEn
>Where is this shop....I've got the moving van all loaded!!! My wife was a
>bit surprised when I told her I was relocating the family because I found a
>better hobby shop.
The shop is Warrick Custom Hobbies of Plantation, FL ( a suburb of Ft.
Lauderdale) in the sunny, hot and humid state of Florida! Come on down!
Applebee's is calling......... :-)
Robert W. Hall
I don't know.. look at the price of houses in the 50s vs . today, price of
cars (a Cadillac was $5000 then, $50,000 now), salaries, food, etc...
Rob Hall
> Why is anyone surprised that the model industry is in decline? I do not
> know what the inflation rate has been since the late 1950's to the mid
> 1960's, but this kind of increase has to be more than that.
ho...@phonet.com
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is
> downtrending - any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible
> suggestions for rejuvenating the hobby?
>
I just got back from the closeout sale of the largest hobby shop in
town. They have been in business since 1946 and the owner is
retiring. It has been a lot of years since I set foot in any hobby
shop (including this one), but I was shocked by what I saw. The VERY
SAME 1/72 scale WWII single engine fighters that I bought for 39 to 49
cents as a kid 35 to 40 years ago were priced at $9 to $15. The VERY
SAME 1/48 scale WWI models that I bought for 79 to 98 cents back then
now started at about $20 and went to $35. Balsa models always cost
more. They started back then at $1.49 and generally stopped at about
$2.79. It was a lot more work, but when finished you had a REALLY BIG
airplane. The VERY SAME balsa airplanes started at $30 and went to
about $50.
Why is anyone surprised that the model industry is in decline? I do not
know what the inflation rate has been since the late 1950's to the mid
1960's, but this kind of increase has to be more than that. Besides,
their tooling has to be paid for by now. I know there were a lot of
airplane kits I had not seen before, but some of them were IDENTICAL to
the ones I saved up for, bought, put together, and painted as a kid.
fl...@airplane.har
>30 years ago prices were lower, but so were incomes.
Sure -- but at least I was able to actually raise, or more like
scrounge, the funds together to buy a kit at a moment's notice -- and
I did, many times. I sure can't do that today.
>If you are relying on Wal Mart for hobby kits, no wonder you are unhappy with
>the selection.
I'm definitely not relying on Wal Mart -- because department stores
can't be relied on anymore. But once upon a time, they sure could be.
>Wally World stocks what the marketing computer and the crystal
>ball tells them, not a complete hobby line.
Well, not much crystal gazing but definitely number crunching -- which
always turns up the fact that something as expensive as model kits
really isn't worth stocking as there are always plenty of other better
selling items to stock instead -- and that's the tragedy -- it didn't
used to be like that.
>If the Bentonville computer says
>"stock X in Y month" that is what they buy...or "XYZ" the new kid's movie is
>due out and getting hype, they might stock the pertinent toy for that movie
>release.
And thanks to UPC codes, they can very accurately track ALL sales too,
so they KNOW exactly what sells and what don't. It's so sad that
obviously, model kits are not on the best seller list.
>You go to Wal Mart to get Krylon paint, tackle boxes for modeling tools. tape,
>misc. tools, duct tape for really bad screwups, and invisible thread NOT model
>kits.
Unfortunately true. In fact Wal Mart has more flying model rockets to
choose from than plastic scale model kits.
>Also flyby, regarding RETRACTABLE landing gear, buy or borrow a copy of John
>Alcorn's new Master Scratch Builders book and read up on how Arlo Schroeder did
>the retracts on his Avenger.
My local hobby shops don't seem to know (or care) much about such
things when I ask them but if that's a new book, I'll see if any of
the online book sellers have it.
fl...@airplane.har
>Although all these posts raise valid points, I think everyone has missed one
>very powerful reason kids don't model. I've been modeling for over 25
>years(with breaks like everyone else) so naturally my 11 year old son became
>interested. I bought him cheap and easy kits of various subjects ,sat down
>with him and helped with advice and technique ONLY WHEN ASKED. He had a
>great time building and painting (first red /gold space shuttle in
>history!!). But when he was done he looked at his and unconsciously compared
>it to my efforts. He became frustrated with the quality of his models and
>all my speeches about practice etc... were useless. If I could show him one
>of my first models (K7 space station and working pirate skeleton dioramas
>come to mind) I think he would be more inclined to believe me. And this
>,finally, brings me to my point, everywhere kids turn they only see well
>done finished models and think they will never be able to "do that". We live
>3 hours away from the closest IPMS area so neither of us have been to a show
>. I wonder do they showcase various skill levels there or is it only these
>obsessive types on display. You know , the ones who need to be
>differentiated through use of magnifying glasses by the judges ? Kids need
>to be able to see their efforts are appropriate for their age and that with
>practice they too can produce realistic models.
There is a shining example of how and why high kit prices are
destroying this hobby. As though it isn't enough that kids aren't
being taught that LOTS of practice is how they'll get to the point
where they can turn out award-winning masterpieces, the exact opposite
is being not only suggested, but actually punctuated by high kit
prices.
Okay, so let's say a kid gets to start with a $10 kit rather than a
$40 one, the PRESSURE is nonetheless on to justify the expense by
doing a good job 'right-off-the-bat'. Still, if/when the kit comes out
sloppy or even ruined during the learning process, there may even be
some GUILT involved -- because $10 just went down the drain, thanks to
not doing a good job (when in reality, it's because the kit is WAAAY
OVERpriced) -- and now it's going to take ANOTHER $10 to try again!
THAT is where such high prices really KILL the hobby. Back when kits
were affordable, such a situation was NEVER the case. As I said
before, some kids used to deliberately destroy their finished kits --
and then go and buy another one. Yes, once I built a small Aurora B-36
kit, one of those with no landing gear, intended to be stuck on a
display stand, and I couldn't wait to get it finished -- so I rushed
things, and subsequently got 'chewed-out' by my father for the
results. But his, and my disappointment definitely wasn't because I
had wasted the $0.69 for the kit, it was because I cared more about
seeing how quickly I could finish rather than how good a job I could
do. My father was definitely a expert of an artist, whether with oil
painting, pastels, charcoal, sketching, or building and painting model
kits. He never had an airbrush but I've never seen the kind of detail,
neatness, and accuracy he got with nothing more than enamels and a
brush anywhere else. And I never believed for an instant that I'd ever
get THAT good. for one thing, the most I've ever done with 2
dimensional art was sketch with coloring pencils -- and always
aircraft, of course. But that never discouraged me as I've always
loved all aircraft and also had my father's reassurance that I would
soon be turning out finished kits of quality. I believed him, and he
was right, indicating that parental involvment is a very important
factor -- in anything.
But from my own personal experience, and those related to me by other
kids at the time, the REAL reason for getting into model kits is FIRST
AND FOREMOST -- BECAUSE THEY'RE *** F U N ! ! ! *** And yes, that most
definitely means that models are FUN -- ONLY when they are FIRST AND
FOREMOST, ***TOYS*** -- to be PLAYED WITH!!!
It's so sad that nowadays, models are presented as little more than 3
dimensional oil paintings, to be looked at only, and not touched! The
term; 'KILLJOY' comes to mind -- and that's for me now. Just imagine
how it makes children feel!
In one of my older, extreme flame generating posts, I had mentioned
that enthusiasts of other kinds of scale models should be afforded the
very same FUN that MODEL railroaders enjoy as they pursue their hobby.
Model railroaders PLAY with their TOYS, and they ENJOY it! THAT is why
they got into the hobby in the first place. And yes, there WAS a time
when accuracy suffered for animation, specifically, the lack of
accuracy of the coupling system used on model trains. But such is no
longer the case. Thanks to technology, there are now VERY realistic
looking and functioning coupling devices for model trains. And what
kid (or adult for that matter) doesn't like model trains? So why not
the same for scale model aircraft and other kinds of scale models?
I got into scale model airplanes in the first place because they were
FUN to PLAY with -- and they STILL ARE! A lady who runs a local hobby
shop also admitted to me that models were and still ARE her favorite
TOYS. But when model kits, when finished, are to be regarded in a
similar manner as oil paintings, is it any wonder that the vast
majority of children, i.e. potentially NEW hobbyists, are
automatically excluded? How many children are into collecting art?
Don't believe it? Just give the average child a choice between going
to an air (or auto, or other vehicle) museum or an art museum, and see
what they choose!
The term; 'toylike' has been used in a negative way out here several
times in the past as to imply that models with this quality were
lacking in detail and realism. But it doesn't have to mean any such
thing at all. Models were and still ARE my favorite toys particularly
BECAUSE OF, not the absence of detail and realism. Even as a very
young child, I began to appreciate how much more REAL and LIFELIKE
plastic models looked than those playthings sold specifically as toys,
and that is what attracted me to the hobby in the first place. And
there's no reason why models MUST be so limited to
'look-but'don't-touch'. They're FUN for both PLAYING and DIS-PLAYING!
Children are depending on us introduce them to something that they
will honestly enjoy. In other words, something FUN. And PLAY VALUE is
a major contributor to such fun -- and since it's adults, not children
who do the toy designing and producing, it's up to us. WE HAVE IT IN
OUR POWER TO MAKE PLASTIC MODELS AS MUCH DOWNRIGHT FUN AS MODEL
RAILROADING AND DOLLHOUSES! Those hobbies are pursued for the PURE FUN
of PLAY, without such stuffy pretenses of such things being off-limits
to 'grown-ups'! THAT is what attracts the children. And THAT is
EXACTLY what is MISSING from the hobby of plastic scale STATIC models
nowadays!
While many children have seen model railroad layouts and dollhouses,
how many of them have ever seen a MODEL AIRPORT layout? It's the
ANIMATION of such things, and yes, I'm most definitely referring to
MOVABLE FEATURES, that creates the PLAY VALUE *necessary* to CAPTIVATE
both children and adults, which in turn is what attracts them like a
magnet, right away from videogames and the like, and right into such a
hobby! It's very easy to know when you're captivated by the sheer
realism and FUN of ANY kind of scale model. When you start to forget
you're on the outside and find yourself almost literally 'getting into
it', then you'll know it's got play value, and that it WILL attract
enthusiasts of ALL ages.
If WE can do that for scale models, we will not only RESCUE the hobby,
but launch it to new heights of enjoyment and subsequent popularity.
If we fail, we will LOSE the hobby because it will simply DIE, it's
that simple -- which is why I say; THE CHOICE IS OURS.
fl...@airplane.har
ho...@phonet.com wrote:
>In article mrk...@aol.com (Mrkmrsk) wrote:
>> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is
>> downtrending - any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible
>> suggestions for rejuvenating the hobby?
>>
>I just got back from the closeout sale of the largest hobby shop in
>town. They have been in business since 1946 and the owner is
>retiring. It has been a lot of years since I set foot in any hobby
>shop (including this one), but I was shocked by what I saw. The VERY
>SAME 1/72 scale WWII single engine fighters that I bought for 39 to 49
>cents as a kid 35 to 40 years ago were priced at $9 to $15. The VERY
>SAME 1/48 scale WWI models that I bought for 79 to 98 cents back then
>now started at about $20 and went to $35. Balsa models always cost
>more. They started back then at $1.49 and generally stopped at about
>$2.79. It was a lot more work, but when finished you had a REALLY BIG
>airplane. The VERY SAME balsa airplanes started at $30 and went to
>about $50.
You can count on those high prices being hotly defended -- and
rationalized -- as our hobby gets RATIONALIZED RIGHT INTO OBLIVION!!!
>Why is anyone surprised that the model industry is in decline?
You can BET that I'm not surprised even a little bit, although
nonetheless totally disgusted, outraged, sickened, and saddened -- but
definitely not surprised.
>I do not
>know what the inflation rate has been since the late 1950's to the mid
>1960's, but this kind of increase has to be more than that.
Specifically for plastic model kits, an increase as much as TEN
THOUSAND PERCENT!!!
>Besides, their tooling has to be paid for by now.
Oh, but don't-cha-know that ALL of those quarter million to near half
a million dollar new dies have to be paid for. That and the MARK-UP!
>I know there were a lot of
>airplane kits I had not seen before, but some of them were IDENTICAL to
>the ones I saved up for, bought, put together, and painted as a kid.
HOW ABOUT IT!!! But these 'new' old kits were never reviewed in
magazines before! And those reviews are obviously pretty important too
-- after all, they do tell you how FIX all the shortcomings of these
'high-tech' (read as EXPENSIVE) new kits.
It's nice to know that there ARE others out here who DARE to SPEAK UP
for what's RIGHT! Thanks!
C. K. Leung
>
> I just got back from the closeout sale of the largest hobby shop in
> town. They have been in business since 1946 and the owner is
> retiring. It has been a lot of years since I set foot in any hobby
> shop (including this one), but I was shocked by what I saw. The VERY
> SAME 1/72 scale WWII single engine fighters that I bought for 39 to 49
> cents as a kid 35 to 40 years ago were priced at $9 to $15. The VERY
> SAME 1/48 scale WWI models that I bought for 79 to 98 cents back then
> now started at about $20 and went to $35. Balsa models always cost
> more. They started back then at $1.49 and generally stopped at about
> $2.79. It was a lot more work, but when finished you had a REALLY BIG
> airplane. The VERY SAME balsa airplanes started at $30 and went to
> about $50.
>
> know what the inflation rate has been since the late 1950's to the mid
> their tooling has to be paid for by now. I know there were a lot of
> airplane kits I had not seen before, but some of them were IDENTICAL to
> the ones I saved up for, bought, put together, and painted as a kid.
>
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
I don't think price is the only reason that is bringing our hobby to the
downward trend (if it is really going that way). However, price for
plastic models are high when compared with similar items. I used to
build planes and tanks but mainly cars now. In Wal Mart, a die cast
1/24 Porsche Boxster with movable hood and doors, steerable front
wheels, and nicely painted metal body, only sells at $8.88 Cdn. A
Revell-Monogram snap-tite Boxster of the same scale without painted body
and less parts sells at $9.97. Does it tell us something? I think both
of the items are manufactured in mass volume. The die cast is even
imported from Thailand probably with import tax. It becomes even more
difficult to justify the price of the Tamiya Boxster at $30.
At least in the car model bussiness, I can see the competition from the
die cast market starts to threaten the plastic model market. The die
cast product quality has been improving so much in the past few years.
Even I am a die hard modeller, I find it sometimes difficult to resists
the die cast cars.
I saw die cast war planes in 1/100 a month ago in a hobby shop in
Toronto. It seems the die cast industry is expanding!
C K Leung
Ottawa
Email: lck...@magma.ca
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
preoccupation with kit prices. Sure, if I'm an advanced modeler and my
sons get grumpy because their efforts aren't as polished as mine, I get
'em another kit. There are lots of inexpensive kits around for kids to
cut their teeth on. What kind of "pressure" do you see being placed on
our kids? Pressure to produce? Pressure to become proficient?
Pressure not to mess up a $10 kit? Not in my house. If the kids like
it, they get the chance to do it, no matter how it's accomplished. I
never pressure anyone to do things "the right way". Some gentle
guidance is called for but pressure? Bah. And if they mess it up or
it's not built to their liking, you can bet they'll get another $10 if
they want to try another. Our parents did the same for us with their
then-$.98 kits. $10 to put a smile on my kid's faces - times FOUR?
Anytime.
Things are not the way they were 20 or 30 years ago. Of course
things are more expensive. Still, where I used to get a 1/25th car
model for $1.98 in 1968, $7 or $8 today is NOT a ripoff. An $8 1/48th
Revellogram aircraft kit is as a good value today as it was 30 years
ago, selling for $.98. Steel for the molds costs more; machinist's pay
scales have increased; diesel fuel to transport the kits cost more. Per
capita wages have kept pace when comparing 1969 dollars to 1999
dollars. How you can zero in on prices and bemoan the profits model
companies make really astounds me. Put on your thinking cap and see
the trends. We modelers have been demanding in the recent past.
Companies have been giving us what we want as of late with the excellent
kits from Accurate Miniatures, MRC, Tamiya, ProModeler and a raft of
others. Those demands we made and still make cost money. It's time to
take your head out of the sand. Please refrain from your great
plastic-model-manufacturers-wanna-get-my-money conspiracy theory and do
some homework on economics - please... And no, I don't hold stocks in
styrene companies.
It's not a question of prices, it's a question of interest. No one
pressured me to build as a kid, I gravitated towards it myself. No one
pressured me to build as most people I know recognize that as a poor
teaching tool and will undoubtedly drive people away from whatever they
are trying to do. I know my dad wished me to pursue woodworking more
though he never pressured me. I wanted the Ford GT kit and he wanted
balsa and basswood so I could build my own from scratch. Still, he
liked that I had my plastic model hobby and encouraged me. Pressure has
nothing to do with it. How interested kids can get is the vital point
and how we can popularize the hobby to the public is just as important,
if not more so.
--
Frank
IPMS/USA 20352
"I'm a real boy!"
- Pinocchio
*****************************
Francis X. Kranick, Jr.
CAD Drafter/CAFM Administrator
University of Scranton
Scranton, PA USA
kran...@uofs.edu (work)
fran...@usnetway.com (home)
(717) 941-7898 - voice
(717) 941-6220 - facsimile
Matt Bacon
> >cents as a kid 35 to 40 years ago were priced at $9 to $15. The VERY
> >SAME 1/48 scale WWI models that I bought for 79 to 98 cents back then
> >now started at about $20 and went to $35.
You were in an expensive shop, then. Hobbyweb has the Glencoe WW1
1:48ths for $8.23, the Smer Sopwith Camel and Albatros for $5.08, and
the Monogram Fokker D.VII for $8.14. I imagine these would be the VERY
SAME kits you're talking about. I haven't built any myself, but I would
imagine that the expensive Blue Max kits, for example, are a rather
different kettle of fish. So old-mould 1/48th models run 5-9 bucks.
Model Expo has the old-mould Airfix Series 1 1/72 kits for $2.88.
According to the NASA cost estimating calculator (a very useful on-line
device), a kit that cost 98 cents in 1959 should cost $5.50 today, in
line with inflation. So kit prices for the VERY SAME kits seem to be in
the ball-park. They're certainly not as price-gouged as some might
suggest.
And that's ignoring the fact that Revell Germany are bringing out good
new-mould kits like the Hurricane and P-51B for £2.99 in the UK, which
is certainly pocket money for today's youngsters.
best,
M.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Matt Bacon, Strategic Development, Virgin Net, 31 St James's Sq, London
t:(+44) 0171 664 6126 f:664 6006 m:0411 165023 http://www.virgin.net
visit http://hems-london.virgin.net -- "Because one life is worth it"
Maiesm72
We are in the middle of the greatest proliferation of kits, accessories,
decals, magazines, books, etc. in the last fifty years.
Gimmee a break already.
Tom
Charles F Seyferlich
>
> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is downtrending -
> any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible suggestions for rejuvenating the
> hobby?
Perhaps the hobby is downtrending in total numbers of people in model
building because build standards are getting above more & more peoples
capabilities. I dropped out years ago - I simply cannot build to the
standard that seems to be taken for granted today.
I could do a decent assembly job and a good job of painting & decaling,
but I have no patience when it comes to super detailing. And I am in a
hobby for enjoyment, not to feel I "have" to build to a certain level.
I feel that a person new to model building might be put off by the same
thing. I do not feel cost is such a big factor. After all, there are
kits in every price range (and I doubt that anyone expects to buy Hawk
1/48 racing planes for 49 cents anymore).
There is much more compition for the time spent on a hobby today than
there was years ago - both for kids and for adults.
William Just
In a previous article, ho...@phonet.com () says:
>In article mrk...@aol.com (Mrkmrsk) wrote:
>> I've been reading that the plastic model industry as a whole is
>> downtrending - any thoughts from you folks? Causes? Possible
>> suggestions for rejuvenating the hobby?
>>
>I just got back from the closeout sale of the largest hobby shop in
>town. They have been in business since 1946 and the owner is
>retiring. It has been a lot of years since I set foot in any hobby
>shop (including this one), but I was shocked by what I saw. The VERY
>SAME 1/72 scale WWII single engine fighters that I bought for 39 to 49
>cents as a kid 35 to 40 years ago were priced at $9 to $15. The VERY
>SAME 1/48 scale WWI models that I bought for 79 to 98 cents back then
>now started at about $20 and went to $35. Balsa models always cost
>more. They started back then at $1.49 and generally stopped at about
>$2.79. It was a lot more work, but when finished you had a REALLY BIG
>airplane. The VERY SAME balsa airplanes started at $30 and went to
>about $50.
the very same gallon of gasoline has increased from, what, 10 cents a
gallon to 1.50 a gallon too! oh wait a minute, its not exactly the
"very same" gallon of gas...nowadays the gas they sell wouldnt power
a car from back then very well very far.
count your blessings that these kits are even available. the gas sure aint.
--
one love
rasta4I
jah bill
Jeffery S. Harrison
limited contact with the "real" world. I don't consider myself as part of
the "real world" so I've been keeping my personal opinion out of this but I
was just talking to my 9-year old nephew about his models. Actually I was
telling him about an air show I wanted to take him to then we got into the
models. He builds cars, he claims that he wants to fly planes but likes to
build cars (what can I say, some people are weird :) ). Anyway, the "high"
cost of modeling doesn't seem to phase him (yes I do supply him with models
but most of the projects he's worked on this year he bought on his own). He
plows into his kits with all the excitement I ever had way-back-when, he
doesn't wait to get home to open the boxes, he has no fear about ruining a
model (and he "ruined" a lot of them)... He tells me that his next project
after he finishes his racing motorcycle (which he said cost $30) is going to
be a Ferrari F50 (I don't know which kit since I don't usually build cars)
that he is going to convert to a racing Ferrari. Converting it to racing F50
to him means that he is adding a couple of nitrous bottles he had left over
from some other project and making decals that say "NOS" (Nitrous Oxide
System) to "put all around the car". I don't know how he gets money to
support his hobby, his mother is a single mom with 3 kids so they're
certainly not rich but for the most part the cost of kits doesn't seem to be
an issue.
Jeff
IPMS something or other
fl...@airplane.har
least decent, to justify the prices of kits.
SVanaken
>least decent, to justify the prices of kits.
Which is not at all difficult with the newer kits from Tamiya et al that
practically fall together. The results one gets with todays kits far outweigh
the results one got with an Airfix or other similar kit. Having said that, I
was always very happy with my colorful Aurora models. :)
---- Scott Van Aken IPMS Canada 5729 ----
---- Modeling Madness Webzine ----
----"http://www.geocities.com/~scottvanaken" ----
---- Fly by Nite Productions ----
John DeBoo
Red Rod model that the markup for plastics is around 40%.
ho...@phonet.com wrote:
> Why is anyone surprised that the model industry is in decline? I do not
> know what the inflation rate has been since the late 1950's to the mid
> 1960's, but this kind of increase has to be more than that. Besides,
> their tooling has to be paid for by now. I know there were a lot of
--
John S. DeBoo jsd...@abq.com
ho...@phonet.com
>
> I don't know.. look at the price of houses in the 50s vs . today,
> price of cars (a Cadillac was $5000 then, $50,000 now), salaries,
> food, etc...
The cost of the models I saw went up by a factor of 20 to 30 times.
Your example was an increase of 10 times. Big difference. I remember
buying gas for 25 to 30 cents a gallon in the mid to late 1960's. It
costs $1.00 to $1.20 now, an increase of about 4 times. I bought my
first new car in 1970, a bottom of the line VW Bug for right at $2,000.
A recently bought a better, but still bottom of the line Chevy Cavalier
for my son for $11,000, an increase of 5-1/2 times. Even if you compare
it with the NewBug at about $16,000, that is still an increas of only 8
times. I did not buy a house until much later, so cannot compare the
prices then and now. However, I rented an apartment for a little over
$100 per month with utilites paid (except telephone) in 1971. My son
recently rented a much better apartment for $650, an increase of 6-1/2
times. It is apparent to me that models have gone up MUCH more than the
general cost of living.
As far as the person who insisted that there was NO decline in modeling,
I remember practically every store had some kind of small plastic
modeling section (hardware store, drugstore, department store, and I
even bought a few models at the local supermarket). Now you rarely even
see them except if you search out a hobby shop. The real measure would
be how may models are sold now each year vs how many were sold each year
in the late 1950's to late 1960's?
Allan Mayer
(SVanaken) writes:
>Having said that, I
>was always very happy with my colorful Aurora models. :)
The kit collector police are on their way.... :(
Allan
http://members.aol.com/Thetabat/hello.html
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
Gene652105
>kit they'll not only think is cool, but is actually buildable by them.
>I had a dad and two kids in tonight, one just wanted a plane (he was
>maybe 5) and the other knew he wanted a jet with lots of bombs. I had
>the kid point out what he thought was cool (all 1/32 or pricey 1/48
>kits) and discretely asked dad what price range. The I took little
>"Johhny" into the oldies room that also has used kits.......I pointed
>out some kits that were in his price range *and* easily built by a kid,
>he ended up with a Hasegawa Sepecat Jaguar with a shark's mouth marking...
Bravo man that's what keeps the hobby alive!
Gene652105
series,P-80's, Panthers etc.)I could pick them up in the 80's for about ten
dollars, which was the just right price for a college student. They weren't the
best kits in the world but always built into impressive models.I cringe when I
see the 1/48 F-106 going for $40 at E-bay. It seems that 29.95 is the entry fee
for a decent 1/48 non F-14,15,16,18 jet.
Gene652105
>set them on fire with lighter fluid
>like the good old days.( I still build a mean model even with two fingers
>blown off, and the eye patch
>because of the BB does not hinder me too much and the eye brows
>DID grow back in
I'm too busy laughing to build a model! Man that was funny!
Gene652105
the paints and cement. I remember building that same old F-4 as kid in the
70's. It didn't impress me then and its poor fit will turn off many kids. On a
better note though, my local Toys R Us has a nifty Testors 1/48 BlackbirdSR-71
kit that has glue,paints and a Squadron Signal book for about $20. I gave that
and and an aftermarket interior set to my 14 yr old nephew.
Gene652105
the landing gear retracted so my planes are as God intended: IN THE AIR! I
build a nice stand out of plexiglass and wood so they have place to roost when
not being flown by me around the living room!
Ron Smith
The Revell-Germany WWII fighters usually go for about $6 and most of the
new Academy 1/72 fighters go for $9........look like decent starter kits
to me.
Ron Smith
Rama Lama Whome Nawnotme
Temple of the Chartreaux, Hitchcockwise of the Pustule of Political
Sillyness
Maker of the Mysterious Black Boxes and Bender of the Sacred Tron Guides
Frank Tauss
I think I've seen the F-106 for about $20 round these parts.
Frank
Al Superczynski
<cfs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I dropped out years ago - I simply cannot build to the
>standard that seems to be taken for granted today.
Why drop out of the hobby because of that? You should build to suit
yourself, not some arbitrary standard. Heck, this is supposed to be *fun*,
isn't it?
Al Superczynski, MFE
IPMS/USA #3795, continuous since 1968
Check out my want and disposal lists at "Al's Place":
http://www.up-link.net/~modeleral
"Build what YOU like, the way YOU want to,
and the critics will flame you every time."
tra...@compuserve.com
mentioned. I had been concerned that the light gray interior from the
Aero Detail 22 might have been strictly for the modern, flyable aircraft.
But it is authentic, according to you.
thanks
In article <William_Reece-2...@reece.hort.ncsu.edu>,
Willia...@ncsu.edu (William Reece) wrote:
> The Tamiya F4F-4 is a jewel and with the Eduard and Teknics sets will be a
> diamond. Here is the stright stuff on the interior colors of the F4F.
>
> F4F-3 / F4F-4; Cockpit, FS 34058 Bronze Green. The factory E&M manual
> calls for Bronze Green. Some later F4F-4's may have been painted FS 34151
> Interior Green. Bronze Green is the first choice. See the Squadron F4F
> Walk Around. The Aero Detail No. 22 also has some good photos. The Blue
> Gray over Light Gray a/c in the Walk Around book is pretty close. Also the
> F4F-3 in the AeroDetail book is good in that it shows the inside of the
> rear fuselage. This is all correct. The inside of the engine cowling and
> main gear bay were Light Gray (actually a color called Grumman Gray which
> is very, very close to FS36440 Light Gull Gray), as was the interior of
> the fuselage. The only area that was Bronze Green/Interior Green was the
> cockpit above and below the 'Floor'. The fuel tank under the cockpit was
> light gray. The landing gear was light gray and flat black, just like the
> books show. Don't forget to add the extra intercooler inside the gear bay
> as Tamiya on put in the one.
>
> William Reece,
> Fly Navy!
tra...@compuserve.com
>>The fuel tank beneath the cockpit floor is painted "Dark Gray"<<
Very interesting. thanks
In article <pqac3.19597$5a.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Alfredo R." <jmco...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Hi,
> I asked this same question some time ago and based upon the replies
> from several people that know about this (Thanks again guys ;-) )
> I will try to summarize an "acceptable" answer:
>
> In the F4F-4 Wildcat,
> The engine cowling and firewall, the area beneath the cockpit floor
> (where the fuel tank is supposed to be), the fuselage interior after
> the rear cockpit bulkhead, the undercarriage bay and the main
> undercarriage struts are painted "Light Gray" a.k.a. "Grumman Gray"
> which is a bit lighter than FS 36440.
> Many people agree that this is well represented by using Testors'
> Light Aircraft Gray (sorry, don't know the bottle number, but Humbrol,
> Gunze and the aforementioned Testors have it in their ranges).
>
> The lower "legs" of the undercarriage are painted in semi-gloss black,
> however this is true for aircraft right out the factory, it was common
> practice to repaint these "struts" the same colour as the adjacent
> camouflage colour (either "Light Gray" for two tone camouflage birds
> or "Insignia White" for three tone schemes)
> The "depressions" for the wheels in the fuselage as well as the wheels
> are painted in the same way: the adjacent camouflage colour.
>
> The cockpit interior -the side consoles, rudder pedals, floor, seat rear
> bulkhead and part of the front panel (not where the instrument faces are)
> is painted "Bronze Green" for Grumman built Wildcats and "Interior Green"
> for Eastern built Wildcats (General Motors perhaps?, I am not sure :-) ).
> It depends on the aircraft you are modelling.
> Many people agree that the closest match for "Bronze Green" is
> Humbrol 88 "Matt Deck Green" IMHO this is close but it needs a bit more
> blue. "Interior Green" is easy to find since several manufacturers produce
> it. Of course, the instrument panel is painted flat black.
> If you want to know more about this "Bronze Green" colour it would be good
> if you could go to www.deja.com and do a "power search" with "Bronze Green"
> as the text to find and rec.models.scale as the forum. You'll find lots of
> detailed info about this written by people that really know the subject.
>
> The fuel tank beneath the cockpit floor is painted "Dark Gray" but I don't
> have more details about how dark the colour is. I personally use Tamiya
> "German Gray", but that's just me and I don't think it is totally accurate.
>
> There is a "common" knowledge that the whole "what is interior colour for
> this
> or that Navy or Army WWII aircraft is?" is a hard topic filled with
> variations
> and exceptions, the whole thing seems to be based in aproximations and IMHO
> this
> makes the hobby more interesting and more fun!
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Alfredo R.