Tiger I Late Color .....HELP!

Jim Pritchard

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the Tiger I late version
was done in Olivgrun only (no camo). I prefer to go with single,
darker colors at my experience level, and since it is a late version,
I can't use plain old panzer grey (correct?). Any help would be
appreciated.
Thanks, Jim

Buji Kern

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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Hi Jim,

German armored fighting vehicles after November 1944 were painted in dark
green, with large hard-edged patches of reddish brown and some dark yellow
patches too. However, you're in luck, because many panzers were rushed to
the front wearing only their dark green base coat. So, go ahead, it'll be
pretty accurate.
By the way, really great German WW2 color information can be found in the
Track-Link. (www.islandnet.com/~paulie)

Jim Pritchard <dec...@tristate.pgh.net> wrote in article
<5227ua$4...@dropit.pgh.net>...

Mike Kendall

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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>Hi all,
>I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the Tiger I late version
>was done in Olivgrun only (no camo). I prefer to go with single,
>darker colors at my experience level, and since it is a late version,
>I can't use plain old panzer grey (correct?). Any help would be
>appreciated.
>Thanks, Jim

Hi Jim,

You can paint both early Tiger Is (North Africa) and late Tiger Is green of
one shade or another. There's a neat color drawing of an olive green one in
Schneider's "Tigers In Combat I", from Schw. Pz. Abt. 301 (Fkl), November
1944, Rur sector (this is a really great book for Tiger fans). This was one
of those Tiger units that used the remote controlled Ladungstrager demolition
carriers.

I'm just starting the recently released Italeri Late Tiger I with zimmerit
(not a bad kit, all in all), and was thinking along the same lines. The one
in this picture has spare tracks hangin on the turret sides, and the number
113 in black with white border on the upper front corner of the turret sides,
and on the rear turret storage box. Looks cool.

Mike

Dan Winfield

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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Re: Tiger I late color....Help!

I can't help but disagree on that Dark green base color, I don't
normally get into German color scheme debate's or advice, but I was
under the impression, that all German armour left the plant's with
the standard Dark yellow (mustard) base coat.The greens and red-browns
being added in the field, with varied result's.

I read somewhere maybe in Panzer Colors, Squadron/signal, that indeed
some of the later TigerII's and the Jagdtiger's had the old panzer
dark grey finish.

I maybe wrong, correct me if it is so.

'A Fanatic is one who cannot change his mind
and refuses to change the subject."

Dan

John Waters

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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dec...@tristate.pgh.net (Jim Pritchard) wrote:

>Hi all,
>I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the Tiger I late version
>was done in Olivgrun only (no camo). I prefer to go with single,
>darker colors at my experience level, and since it is a late version,
>I can't use plain old panzer grey (correct?). Any help would be
>appreciated.
>Thanks, Jim

Jim, far as I know the base color on the late Tiger1 would be dunkel
gelb not olivegrun.

Regards, John Waters

RAYMOND J. MEHLBERGER

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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In George Bradfords book "Armor Camouflage & Markings North Africa
1940-1943" page 80 there is a profile of a dark green overall tiger used
in Tunisia. He says "Although most statements suggest that the Tiger I's
serving in Tunisia were camoflaged with overall desert sand, they seem
to have appeared in both sand and green. This may possibly have been
determined by the sectors in which they were deployed and the fact that
the battalion was sometimes split up."

Paul A. Owen

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Sep 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/22/96

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In article <5227ua$4...@dropit.pgh.net>, dec...@tristate.pgh.net says...

>
>Hi all,
>I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the Tiger I late version
>was done in Olivgrun only (no camo). I prefer to go with single,
>darker colors at my experience level, and since it is a late version,
>I can't use plain old panzer grey (correct?). Any help would be
>appreciated.
>Thanks, Jim
>

Why don't you paint it in winter white wash over dark yellow? If you
are brush painting this would be perfect since white wash was applied
with a brush sometimes. Use Tamiya flat white thinned with water and
just slop it on - have fun with it. You can even get away with using
a can of spray paint which almost matches dark yellow, since you will
be covering it with white it doesn't really have to match that close.
Of course if you have an airbrush use that then.

Personally I wouldn't paint a late Tiger I green since they stopped
making them when Dark Yellow was still in vouge.

--
+-====================-+-===========================================-+
| Paul A. Owen | TRACK-LINK The AFV Modellers Page |
| pau...@islandnet.com | http://www.islandnet.com/~paulie/index.html |
+-====================-+-===========================================-+

Mike Kendall

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Sep 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/23/96

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>Re: Tiger I late color....Help!

> I can't help but disagree on that Dark green base color, I don't
>normally get into German color scheme debate's or advice, but I was
>under the impression, that all German armour left the plant's with
>the standard Dark yellow (mustard) base coat.The greens and red-browns
>being added in the field, with varied result's.

> I read somewhere maybe in Panzer Colors, Squadron/signal, that indeed
>some of the later TigerII's and the Jagdtiger's had the old panzer
>dark grey finish.

> I maybe wrong, correct me if it is so.

> 'A Fanatic is one who cannot change his mind
> and refuses to change the subject."

>Dan

Hi Dan,

We've been kinda' shootin the breeze about German armor WWII colors off and on
for a while now, you may have missed some of the earlier posts.

There's some relatively new info out in print, mostly by Jentz, but also by
other reserchers, that shows orders to the AFV plants in December of '44 to
paint the outsides of the vehicles green(dunkelgruen RAL 6003), instead of the
dark yellow (dunkelgelb RAL 7028). Some had the other colors added for
camo, some only the green. The order was reversed a couple of months later
(cna't remember the date ow), but quite a few vehicles had hit the field by
that point and weren't repainted.

There were also some Tiger I, Panzer IIIs and 251s (and maybe others) painted
a "pea green" during the North Africa war years, mostly later in the campaign.

If you'd like some specific references to check, give me a hollar by e-mail
and I'll get the list to you.

Mike

Paul A. Owen

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Sep 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/23/96

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>There's some relatively new info out in print, mostly by Jentz, but also by
>other reserchers, that shows orders to the AFV plants in December of '44 to
>paint the outsides of the vehicles green(dunkelgruen RAL 6003), instead of the
>dark yellow (dunkelgelb RAL 7028). Some had the other colors added for
>camo, some only the green. The order was reversed a couple of months later
>(cna't remember the date ow), but quite a few vehicles had hit the field by
>that point and weren't repainted.

Was the overall Dark Green order countermanded? So things went back
to Dark Yellow in 1945.

Is this correct...

1939 to 1942 Dark Grey
1943 to Aug/44 Dark Yellow + field applied brown/green
Sept/43 to Oct.30.44 Ambush pattern
Oct.31.44 to Nov.30.44 Red-Primer base + green/dark yellow
Nov.31.44 to ??? Dark green base + red-brown/dark yellow
??? previous order countermanded?

Please help me.

Dan Winfield

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Sep 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/24/96

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Re: Tiger I late Color....He don't need my help.

Hi guys:

Now you know why I haven't gone into the German AFV advice business,
I was totally unaware of the upgrade in info, I'm still stuck in Panzer
Color's I&II.

Mike I"d appreciate the info, if you'd forgive me for venturing
into unfamiliar territory, I'll just stick with my Israeli, and Japanese
AFV's.

Ray appreicate your input to:

I stand corrected.

"Things don't turn up in this
world until somebody turns
them up.

James A. Gar

Dan

bruce burden

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Sep 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/24/96

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Dan Winfield (d...@iglou.com) wrote:
: Re: Tiger I late color....Help!

: I read somewhere maybe in Panzer Colors, Squadron/signal, that indeed

: some of the later TigerII's and the Jagdtiger's had the old panzer
: dark grey finish.

:
Hi Dan,

That is the danger of old material. The Panzer Colors
series are a great source of photos, but the research is
20+ years old. The research on Paul Owen's web page is
based on much more current research, along with the source
for the information is based on.

Bruce
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Burden bru...@eden.com Austin, Tx.

"I like bad!"
-Thuganlitha
The Power and the Prophet

John Waters

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Sep 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/25/96

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pau...@Islandnet.com (Paul A. Owen) wrote:

>>There's some relatively new info out in print, mostly by Jentz, but also by
>>other reserchers, that shows orders to the AFV plants in December of '44 to
>>paint the outsides of the vehicles green(dunkelgruen RAL 6003), instead of the
>>dark yellow (dunkelgelb RAL 7028). Some had the other colors added for
>>camo, some only the green. The order was reversed a couple of months later
>>(cna't remember the date ow), but quite a few vehicles had hit the field by
>>that point and weren't repainted.

>Was the overall Dark Green order countermanded? So things went back
>to Dark Yellow in 1945.

Another aspect of the proper base colour on the Tiger1 would be when
production stopped on the Tiger1which was I believe August 1944. So
dunkel gelb would still be in effect, on Tiger1s.

Regards, John Waters

Mike Kendall

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Sep 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/25/96

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Man, this is a mess, isn't it?

Okay, as far as I can tell, the official line goes something like this:

1. Starting in Feb '43 the base coat of paint went from dundelgrau RAL 7021
to dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow). When the tanks reached the field units
they were camoed with olivgruen RAL6003 and Rotbraun RAL 8017 in a wide
variety of camo patterns.

2. Sept of '43 we begin to see zimmerit applied at the factories.

3. August '44 standardized camo applied at the factories "ambush", still over
a base coat of dark yellow.

4. Sept. '44 zimmerit application ceases at the factories.

5. Sept '44 also many vehicles left the factories in red oxide primer with
patches of camo applied over the primer, with much of the primer showing.
Camo colors included dunkelgelb, olivgruen and rotbraun.

6. October '44 tanks no longer painted inside, but left in red oxide primer
(prior they were painted white, or more likely the ivory buff).

7. December '44 tanks and some fighting vehicles are to leave the factory in
dunkelgruen RAL 6003. Camo may be applied at the factories with sharp
contours using rotbraun and dunkelgelb.

8. Feb. '45 turret interiors to be painted again ivory (eifenbein).

9. Feb. '45 exteriors again to be painted in dunkelgelb, or what ever paint
the factory could find. Anything goes from here on out.

So how can you have a green Tiger I? The story goes that some vehicles in
North Africa were painted a pea green, probably the first company of the 501st
Independent Heavy Tank Battalion, attached to 10th Panzer Division. This
would also include some Pz IIINs also in the battalions at this time due to
shortages of Tiger Is.

The Tiger Is of Pz. Abt 301 are also rumored to have been found in green in
November of 44. Don't know why, perhaps were using captured stocks of someone
elses paint, or perhaps a couple of factories began painting some Tiger Is
green earlier than dictated due to running out of dunkelgelb....

IMHO you can paint late anything the Germans used just about any established
color and argue your way out of most discussions.

Anybody have any other input or info to add? By the way, this stuff is from
Bradford, Jentz, and Schneider, the last two within the last couple of years.

Mike

David Byrden

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Sep 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/25/96

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Jim Pritchard <dec...@tristate.pgh.net> wrote in article
<5227ua$4...@dropit.pgh.net>...

> I was wondering if anyone could tell me if the Tiger I late version

> was done in Olivgrun only (no camo).

Around the end of 1944 panzers and other vehicles were ordered to be
painted completely in dark green.
This was RAL 6003 (already used for high explosive shells, as distinct from
the black armour-piercing ones).
Some vehicles had dunkelgeb applied over this as camouflage.

David

Scott T. Hards

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96

to John Waters

I had an interesting conversation with Tony Greenland at Euro-Militaire
about this exact subject. He pointed out all the conflicting
information about late war coloring, mis-interpreted photographs
(apparently green and dark red have been switched by a number of people
looking at b/w photos, assuming the red appeared darker), and the fact
that there was no clear "official" color guidance from the top at that
point, rather a bunch of paint manufacturers all making their own
different interpretations of what was intended (the RAL color numbers).
Besides, these colors were diluted in the field by the individual units
when painted, often using different things for thinner, resulting in
varying tones all around. He summed it up by saying, "Don't be too
concerned about the color [you paint late-war tanks]. The Germans had
much more to worry about in that stage of the war than the color they
painted their armor."