2nd RfD: rec.railroad reorganization
Andrew Toppan
_____________________________
Proposal: reorganize rec.railroad as follows:
Creation of the following unmoderated, worldwide groups:
misc.transport.rail.americas Railroads & railways North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz Railways in Australia and New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.europe Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.misc Miscellaneous rail issues and discussions.
(replaces rec.railroad)
Proponents: Andrew Toppan <el...@wpi.edu>
Colin A. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
(Cross)posted to: rec.railroad, aus.rail, uk.transport, rec.models.railroad,
misc.transport.urban-transit, news.groups, news.announce.newgroups,
fr.misc.transport.rail
An announcement of this RfD will be mailed to the The Railroad List
<railroadCUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
All discussion of this RfD should take place on news.groups.
[Changes from the first RfD: m.t.r.australasia changed to .australia-nz
to avoid confusion about the areas it covers, the proposed charters for
all the groups have been added. The charters address several concerns
raised in the previous discussions, mainly railfan participation]
**This is not a call for votes. A CfV will be posted shortly after the
20th of this month.**
Rationale
---------
Why Split rec.railroad at all?
------------------------------
This has been discussed in great detail recently, but the basic reasons
are as follows:
-Traffic on rec.railroad is far too high.
-Various groups are considering splitting off into regional groups (i.e.
uk.transport.rail, eunet.rail) which will not be available worldwide.
-The majority of postings are US-related. Europeans and others feel swamped
and intimidated about posting about their own systems, so they are
moving to regional groups.
-Major confusion about names and initials. eg. NS = both a USA railroad
and a Dutch railroad.
Names of New Newsgroups
-----------------------
Hierarchy:
-----------
-Why not stay in rec.railroad?
Railroad is not an international word. Australia and Europe, among others,
use railway, while the United States uses railroad. There was a strong
outcry against the use of "railroad" from many parts of the world.
For example, a group named "rec.railroad.australia" would be unacceptable
from an Australian standpoint. "railway" would probably be acceptable to
everyone, as would "rail", although "rail" seems to be preferred. So
.rail MUST be used in place of .railroad if a truly international hierarchy
is to exist. Using "railroad" will cause the vote to fail, as non USA
voters will vote "no". It makes makes no sense to create a group that
will not be used by those it is intended for.
-Why misc.transport.rail.* instead of rec.rail ??
-There are a number of proposed or existing groups in the
misc.transport.hierarchy. These include misc.transport.urban-transit,
a group with discussions that are quite similar in nature to those
in rec.railroad. It is desirable (both from a sysadmin's and a user's
standpoint) to put all the transport related newsgroups in one hierarchy:
-easier to find the groups if they are all in one place
-more effective use of overall Usenet namespace
-the misc.transport hierarchy will be growing to include,
eventually, all forms of transportation.
-New second level group names (the "rail" in rec.rail) should be broad
classifications (i.e. rec.arts, rec.sports, rec.crafts). rec.rail is
a very narrow classification for a second level group. New second
level rec groups may have propagation problems--rec.ponds is a new
second level rec. group, it is one of the worst propagated rec.
groups out there.
-creating a new second level group causes problems with newsfeeds--the
new hierarchy must be manually added. Adding misc.transport.rail.*
would be more or less 'automatic'--an important consideration when
thousands of sites (and thousands of sysadmins) are involved.
The fact that rec.railroad already exists does not matter, rec.rail
would still be a new hierarchy, not a renamed one.
-From the point of view of overall Usenet namespace it is desirable to
add group names at the third and fourth levels rather than the second
level.
-misc. should not be thought of as "insignificant subjects" or
"trivial subjects" but as "subjects that don't fit elsewhere" or
"subjects that overlap several classifications," as rec.railroad does.
-misc is a more broad classification than rec., it can include railfan
(recreational) and professional content, as well as posts from people
who ride/use trains but are not interested in the recreational aspects of
railroads/ways. rec.rail would, by its name, discourage non RECreational
discussions. Everyone should be welcome--railfans, passengers and
workers in the railroad/way industry.
-misc.transport.rail.* would probably be better propagated than
rec.rail. misc.transport.rail is already better propagated than
rec.railroad (#182 in the top 511 rec/misc groups vs. #345) and it is
much newer, so it isn't even fully propagated. Add to this the problems
of new second level propagation in misc. (noted above, rec.ponds is a
good example). There are some sites that don't carry misc, but there
are just as many (or more) that don't carry the very large rec. hierarchy.
Proposed Charters:
------------------
misc.transport.rail.*:
----------------------
The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects of
railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.
Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited to,
train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation, technology,
locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic and social
issues regarding railroads/ways, the future of rail transport and the
infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to be
all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).
These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
railways/roads. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the railroad/way industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.
Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.
Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.
misc.transport.rail.americas:
-----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.
misc.transport.rail.europe:
---------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
---------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or the
entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that are
not specific to any one continent.
Warren Lavallee
unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.americas
unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.europe
unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
Newsgroups line:
misc.transport.rail.americas Railroads & railways in North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.europe Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz Railways in Australia & New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc Miscellaneous rail issues & discusions.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 15 April 1995.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting
questions only contact Warren Lavallee <war...@Syra.NET>. For
questions about the proposed group contact Andrew Toppan <el...@wpi.edu>.
This CFV will be cross posted to:
rec.railroad
misc.transport.urban-transit
rec.models.railroad
uk.transport
aus.rail
fr.misc.transport.rail
and sent to the EMail list <rail...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------
The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects
of railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.
Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited
to, train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation,
technology, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic
and social issues regarding rail transport, the future of rail transport
and the infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to
be all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).
These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
rail transport. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the rail transport industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.
Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.
Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.
misc.transport.rail.americas:
----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.
misc.transport.rail.europe:
--------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
--------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or
the entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that
are not specific to any one continent.
HOW TO VOTE
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rec.railroad reorg Ballot <MTR-0001> (Don't remove this marker)
Give your real name here:
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[Your Vote] Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ ] misc.transport.rail.americas
[ ] misc.transport.rail.europe
[ ] misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
[ ] misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Orc
Warren Lavallee <vot...@syra.NET> wrote:
> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.americas
> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.europe
> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
Well, I'm voting against this proposal, and I think that everyone
else should too. In case anybody hasn't read my reasons why, I'll
say them again:
* Misc is an inappropriate newsgroup for a primarily recreational
newsgroup.
Rec.railroad has existed for quite a long time, and is quite
successful as a newsgroup for railroad enthusiasts. The only
problem with the group is that the name is considered us-centric
in some circles, which has the unpleasant side-effect of driving
away some interesting posts about railways outside of the USA.
However, it won't help matters to then shunt the newsgroup off into
a place where nobody would expect it.
If you look at the way various transport topics are set up on the
net right now, you'll see a large collection of newsgroups under
rec for automobile fans, and a large collections of newsgroups
under rec for airplane fans. And in misc you find, well, a
newsgroup about urban transit (misc.transport.urban-transit) which
is, political arguments aside, mainly discussing pros and cons of
urban transit and transit planning, and (proposed) a group for
truckers and people interested in the airline industry.
Given this arrangement, it seems somewhat absurd to assume that J.
Random Railroad Enthusiast would gravitate towards
misc.transport.rail.misc, a group-name that, even if noticed, reeks
'professional discussions only' (and if this enthusiast wandered
into misc.transport.urban-transit, they'd be a goner.)
When the renaming/subgrouping was first proposed, it was rec.rail.
This was acceptable to the majority of the readership of the
affected group (rec.railroad.) The name that is currently being
proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed. This, too,
is ill-advised -- not only is it moving newsgroups around without
paying attention to their content, but it's converting misc into
a repository for unclassifiable and insufficiently popular groups.
(The argument 'too focused for a top-level group' lacks merit,
since misc.transport offers nothing that, say, rec.transport would
not, aside from the dubious benefit of being hard to find.)
____
david parsons \bi/ o...@pell.com
\/
Andrew Toppan
different subject line, Orc (o...@pell.com) said:
> Well, I'm voting against this proposal,
Should we be surprised?
> In case anybody hasn't read my reasons why, I'll say them again:
I'm sure that nearly everyone who cares has seen your reasons,
as have a lot of people who don't care.
> Misc is an inappropriate newsgroup for a primarily recreational
> newsgroup.
It is, at the moment, primarily recreational. But there is non-recreational
content, regardless of whether or not you admit it. Things like the CP
(or was it CN??) disatcher wondering how changes in dispatching systems
would effect his job, or the series of CP Rail statements to *shippers*
about the recent strike, or rail passengers....these things are
*non-recreational*. Rec., by its name, excludes non RECreational posts...
misc can include professionals and railfans and passengers and whoever
else comes along. People have already suggested a rail-industry group...
would rec.rail.industry make sense? (a recreational industry?).
> However, it won't help matters to then shunt the newsgroup off into
> a place where nobody would expect it.
Funny, I would think that most people would look in a transport
heirarchy for transport related groups. And a keyword search
will find it *anywhere*.
> And in misc you find, well, a
> newsgroup about urban transit (misc.transport.urban-transit) which
> is, political arguments aside, mainly discussing pros and cons of
> urban transit and transit planning,
It is primarily for discussing anything about urban transit--planning,
pros and cons, schedules, equipment, history, etc....just like rec.railroad
is for trains. And rec.railroad has plenty of discussions about
the pros and cons of rail transit and railroad/way planning...
> Given this arrangement, it seems somewhat absurd to assume that J.
> Random Railroad Enthusiast would gravitate towards
> misc.transport.rail.misc, a group-name that,
I've seen quite a few posts in m.t.u-t asking "are there any groups
that deal with railroads". Remember that m.t.u-t thread about CWR
trains that really belonged in r.r? It seems that some people find m.t.u-t
first, some find r.r first. I don't think that many people search
through several thousand newsgroup names to find what they are interested
in, keyword searches will do the trick.
> even if noticed, reeks
> 'professional discussions only' (and if this enthusiast wandered
> into misc.transport.urban-transit, they'd be a goner.)
Before you said that it was a bunch of idiots flaming and shouting
about everything.....now it is too professional. FYI, I know less
about urban transit than I do about railroads, I am not a professional
of any sort, and I don't feel at all out of place in m.t.u-t.
Nowhere does it state that m.t.u-t is a "professionals only" group.
> The name that is currently being proposed was not acceptable to the
> majority,
This is your opinion, but it contradicts three facts:
(1) My straw poll favored misc.transport.rail over rec.rail
(2) The vast majority of people who took part in the RFD discussion
favored misc.transport.rail
(3) Your own poll favored misc.transport.rail
> not only is it moving newsgroups around without
> paying attention to their content, but it's converting misc into
> a repository for unclassifiable and insufficiently popular groups.
By moving rec.railroad to misc.transport it will become
"unclassifiable and insufficiently popular"? It will turn misc.
into a repository for such groups? Huh?
: (The argument 'too focused for a top-level group' lacks merit,
: since misc.transport offers nothing that, say, rec.transport would
: not, aside from the dubious benefit of being hard to find.)
But rec.transit does not exist, misc.transit does....duplicating
second level heirarchies makes no sense here.
These arguments have all been heard before, the majority of those who
took interest in the discussion have rejected them already.
The situation is this: if the proposal passes, the groups will be
created. If it fails we cannot propose a new split for 6 months,
so uk.rail etc. will be formed, and non-North American traffic will
vanish for good.
Followups set correctly. but they will probably be ignored.........
--
Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- http://www.wpi.edu/~elmer/
Railroads, Ships and Aircraft Homepage, Tom Clancy FAQ Archive
Dik T. Winter
> The name that is currently being
> proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
> implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed.
Oh, come on. Wait until you see the results. And what was the result of
the straw-vote again? My vote against yours.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: d...@cwi.nl
Orc
>In article <1995Mar28....@gallant.apple.com> o...@pell.com (Orc) writes:
> > The name that is currently being
> > proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
> > implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed.
>
>Oh, come on. Wait until you see the results.
I already did. Note I said _was_ -- popular opinion today,
after much commentary about how You Can't Fight City Hall and If
We Don't Create These Groups Now It Will Be Too Late are, not
surprisingly, different. Note that I disagree with current
popular opinion, and don't think that it will be Too Late if
this bad proposal is shot down and the readership of
rec.railroad has to wait six months to submit a better
proposal.
If anyone objects to this proposal, now is the time to make
statements about it. I don't want it passed, so why should I wait
until the vote is over to campaign against it?
____
david parsons \bi/ No on misc.transport.rail
\/
Willem de Beer
>In article <1995Mar28....@gallant.apple.com> o...@pell.com (Orc) writes:
> > The name that is currently being
> > proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
> > implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed.
Living in a country only recently "democratised", I thought it was only here
that a silly statement like this is made: people claiming a majority
before it is tested by a vote!
One of the political parties here contested results in some regions because
they "knew" they had majority support in that region. When this was tested
in an election and found not to be so, they were cheesed off!
The votes will speak, not mud-slinging.
Just thinking about democracy...
Willem de Beer
South Africa
Twan Laan
>In article <rec.railroad...@uunet.uu.net>,
>Warren Lavallee <vot...@syra.NET> wrote:
>> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
>> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.americas
>> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.europe
>> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
>> unmoderated group misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
>Well, I'm voting against this proposal, and I think that everyone
>else should too. In case anybody hasn't read my reasons why, I'll
>say them again:
> * Misc is an inappropriate newsgroup for a primarily recreational
> newsgroup.
>Rec.railroad has existed for quite a long time, and is quite
>successful as a newsgroup for railroad enthusiasts. The only
>problem with the group is that the name is considered us-centric
>in some circles, which has the unpleasant side-effect of driving
>away some interesting posts about railways outside of the USA.
You're mixing up two facts.
The first fact (chronologically) was, that especially Europeans
felt overloaded with US postings. This is no harm, in principle,
but the general interest of US railway/railroad-fans is freight,
whilst the general interest of European railway/railroad-fans is
passenger transport (I know, there are many exceptions to this
rule). Europeans then created newsgroups of their own, being
unreachable for the people from USA who were also interested in
their discussions. Moreover, a posting like "I've seen train X
at Y yesterday" where Y is some place in the USA, definitely
is more interesting to USA readers than to European readers,
for geographical reasons. The same holds for an European
message of the same kind.
The suggestion was made that rec.railroad should be split. Then
also those from the USA who are interested in European railways
could follow the discussions.
The second fact was the discussion on (*if* rec.railroad should
be split) *how* this should be done. There were various suggestions
and only at that point the difference between railroad/railways
appeared. This difference, however, didn't have anything to do
with the split, only with the name-giving of some newsgroups.
Twan.
--
E vietato appoggiarsi nella porta.
(FS)
Colin R. Leech
In a previous posting, "Robert Waller" (bobw...@cix.compulink.co.uk) writes:
> No doubt, you are an American, that is one of the reasons that a lot of
> us want the change because rec.railroad is too American and nothing else,
> and the Internet is opening up to more and more countries and more people
> every day.
>
> When I first joined the Internet, I used to read rec.railroad in the hope
> that there would be something to interest me, the fact was that there was
> virtually nothing there except loads of waffle about American Railroads
> (mainly New York and Washington areas).
>
> Also note that outside of North America we call our train companies
> 'Railways' not 'Railroads' even though most of us in the industry call
> the track "the road" so there is another point against rec.railroad
>
> And I reiterate what has been said before the rec hierarchy is definitely
> not the place for railways to be in, due to the increase in postings from
> people who work within the industry that are not rec related.
>
> Bob
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> EMail: |You lose your possessions, you lost nothing;
> r_waller@aec_uk.easynet.co.uk|You lose a limb, you lost a little bit;
> bobw...@cix.compulink.co.uk|You lose your honour, you lost everything.
> CompuServe: 100010,1024 | GOETHE.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Colin R. Leech |-> Civil Engineer by training,
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca |-> Transportation Planner by choice,
h:613-224-2301 w:613-741-6440 |-> Trombonist by hobby.
My opinions are my own, not my employer's. You may consider them shareware.
Christopher B. Stone
> 'Railways' not 'Railroads' even though most of us in the industry call
> the track "the road" so there is another point against rec.railroad
I haven't been following most of this rail flamewar, but I find the above
statement a bit bizarre -- the French call railways "Chemins de Fer;" in
Spanish, it's "Ferrocarril;" in Persian, it's "Rah-e-Ahan;" and so forth
in many other languages. All of these translate to "Iron-ROAD." Note
the emphasis on "road."
In any case, I think that this group should go under misc.transport.*,
because misc.transport.* is a hierarchy that ought to be developed.
--
////// // // ////// // ////// Christopher B. Stone
// ////// ///// // ///
// // // // // // /// "Consensus is the negation
////// // // // // // ////// of leadership." -Margaret Thatcher
Dik T. Winter
> >In article <1995Mar28....@gallant.apple.com> o...@pell.com (Orc) writes:
> > > The name that is currently being
> > > proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
> > > implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed.
>
> that a silly statement like this is made: people claiming a majority
> before it is tested by a vote!
No, you will see that everywhere. But, Orc had a straw-poll and was outvoted.
There are more than one thing wrong with Orc's assertions. He assumes that
it is only the readers of the group that will vote. He is wrong. Non-readers
are (by design) allowed to vote to insure consitency in the naming.
P.J. Humble
Christopher B. Stone <cbs...@flagstaff.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
>I haven't been following most of this rail flamewar, but I find the above
>statement a bit bizarre -- the French call railways "Chemins de Fer;" in
>Spanish, it's "Ferrocarril;" in Persian, it's "Rah-e-Ahan;" and so forth
>in many other languages. All of these translate to "Iron-ROAD." Note
>the emphasis on "road."
>
the Spanish (and Catalan) translate as "Iron-RAIL", the Dutch "Spoorweg" and
Swedish "Jarnweg" translates as "<something>-WAY", the Italian "Ferrovia"
translates as "Iron-WAY".
--
___ __o Pete Humble, Head of Systems Management, Computer Centre,
-- _ \<,_ Leicester University, Leicester, LE1 7RH, U.K.
-- (_)/ (_) Phone: +44 (116) 252 2237 Fax: +44 (116) 252 5027
================= Email: pj...@le.ac.uk ICBMnet: 52 37' 23" N, 01 07' 24" W
Warren Lavallee
CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------
HOW TO VOTE
rec.railroad reorg Ballot <MTR-0002> (Don't remove this marker)
Colin R. Leech
The time for talking is past. The time for voting is here.
We had an extra long discussion period courtesy of organizational problems
within the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers. In fact, we have been discussing
this issue since about last October or November, long before a formal RFD
was posted. These posts by Orc are the last ditch attempts by a man
desperate to have his way.
I don't intend to get drawn into a long discussion of the merits of this
proposal. We've heard all the issues before. We know that serious
geographic problems must be solved quickly. We know that nobody will be
excluded from any of the new groups. We know which names are feasible
within the naming structure of Usenet and which are not. We know that
three polls of the readership, including one by Orc himself, do not
support his contention that misc.transport.rail.* is undesirable to the
readers.
We know that Orc does not support the proposed newsgroup split. That is
his right. The final vote results will show whether his long tirades
against it have convinced enough other people as well. Based on the
discussions of the proposal that I saw in news.groups (most of which spilled
over into rec.railroad as well), I predict that the proposal will pass
because people realize the overall benefits. Only time will tell if my
prediction is correct. If I'm wrong, only time will tell how much of the
rail discussions will splinter off into local and regional groups that
most of the world cannot receive. Just a couple of days ago there was
another attempt in uk.transport to create uk.transport.rail and
uk.transport.misc. It was beaten back (barely) because the rec.railroad
vote is now happening. uk.transport.rail _will_ be created soon if
misc.transport.rail.europe is not.
In a previous posting, Orc (o...@pell.com) writes:
> 'professional discussions only' (and if this enthusiast wandered
> into misc.transport.urban-transit, they'd be a goner.)
Mr. Parson's (Orc's) contributions are always intelligent and welcomed in
misc.transport.urban-transit.
S Sillato
Wasn't there a television show in the 1950's called the Bickersons? This
group has nothing over that crowd! It's no wonder that peace in the world
is so fragile. I'd just like you all to remember that in 50 years a lot
of us will be worm food and in 100 years no one will remember this
controversy.(maybe 100 days!) The point is that life is too short to get
all cranked up about such issues.
Humble regards,
Steve
Michael Sheliga
technology) have the name be rec.railroad in the US and something
else elsewhere? I realize this still wouldn't please everyone, but
it might make most (some, a few, at least more than one . . .) people
satisfied.
Who runs the BB system anyways?? I've always wondered about
this.
Andrew Toppan
Michael Sheliga (mshe...@averroes.helios.nd.edu) shaped the electrons to say:
: Couldn't we have (through the use of modern technology) have the
: name be rec.railroad in the US and something else elsewhere?
No. rec.railroad, misc.transport.*, etc. are distributed
worldwide, the name is the same everywhere.
: Who runs the BB system anyways?? I've always wondered about this.
This isn't a BBS, this is Usnet, there is a huge difference. Read
news.announce.newusers for an overview.
Andrew
Alan J. Flavell
>
>Who runs the BB system anyways?? I've always wondered about
>this.
Read the postings on news.announce.newusers. You might not understand
any better who runs usenet, but at least you'll learn not to call it
"the BB system".
regards
Alan
----
"... arts in Scotland to get £180,000 in National Lottery money.
Sir Hector Munro said the whole of Scotland would benefit" (CEEFAX item)
I'd like to put my share towards a first class stamp, please.
Fredric W. Dabney
: >
: Nope. The French (and Portuguese "Camino do Ferro") translate as "Iron-TRACK",
: the Spanish (and Catalan) translate as "Iron-RAIL", the Dutch "Spoorweg" and
: Swedish "Jarnweg" translates as "<something>-WAY", the Italian "Ferrovia"
: translates as "Iron-WAY".
At least in this corner of the world, "Camino" is taken to mean "Road".
cf "El Camino Real"- the Royal Road.
Policies and opinions held by the employer of the undersigned
are not reflected in the views of the undersigned. Or anyone
else in their right mind, for that matter.
On the other hand, I for one fail to see what the blazes difference it
makes if it's called "railroad", "railway" or sewer pipe. It's the topic
that matters, not the name! As pointed out, perhaps unintentionally,
it's only in English that there's a difference. Are we going to have a
separate list for every language group in the world? For some of us,
it's only the shared interest in trains that we have in common.
Fred Dabney/ KRWG Radio/ New Mexico State University (fda...@nmsu.edu)
"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained
by stupidity" (attrib: Thoreau)
Dick Lord
>
>The time for talking is past. The time for voting is here.
>
>support his contention that misc.transport.rail.* is undesirable to the
>readers.
>
I have no problem with changing RAILROAD to RAILWAY. I am less pleased
to see this group fragmented into several groups, but I appreciate that
there is a lot of traffic here (I can't keep up with it all, either)
What I don't like is how we got from being a <rec.> group to a
<misc.transport> group.
I am a person who has a recreational interest in railroads/railways.
While I appreciate the efforts of those who plan rail transport systems
and advocate funding for same, I somehow don't feel that the change
to <misc.transport> will encourage wonderful discussions of vacuum brakes
and steam locomotives.
Yes, many of the folks who are here already may figure out where this
group went, and will be able to still participate if their News server
adds the new groups (a big IF for some.)
However, I think there is more a category change than a substitution
of one ascii string for another.
I am NOT interested in MISCELLANEOUS.TRANSPORT.
I AM interested in RECREATIONAL discussion of trains.
I will be very surprised if we are able to maintain the lively discourse
on rail history, operation, train-watching that we currently enjoy.
It is my strong fear that people with a RECREATIONAL interest in trains
are not likely to find us under <misc.transport.rail> and that this group
will shift from a hobby interest to a political advocacy interest group.
While I see nothing wrong with political advocacy (and a news group to
represent it) I would still like to preserve a group dedicated to the
enjoyment of recreational railfanning and rail history.
Names DO have significance. What possible purpose is served by deliberately
obscuring the recreational aspects of our interest ?
I would happily support rec.railway.* or rec.rail.* but I think that changing
to misc.transport is complete STUPIDITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
***____ __I_|HH|_ Dick Lord, Current Technology (603)868-2270
Y___|[]| ,~~~__ | x x | 99 Madbury Rd. Durham, NH 03824
>{|___|__|_|_____|_|_______| r...@curtech.mv.com DCC group NMRA #092225
/oo--@-@ oo oo oo oo HO B&M/MEC Mountain div. under construction.
JRCUTLER
Dan Morisseau
> If this CFV passes, I
>expect that the resulting newsgroups will stagnate and by simple
>attrition lose all the North American railroad enthusiasts who
>currently post to rec.railroad.
This, I beleive fits the 'agenda" of those who regard themselves as some
sosrt of superior, specialised " transportation professional" and who have
reacted with dismay over suggestions that the newsgroup stay in the "rec"
hierarchy. Ballyhooing their credentials marks such epople as a kind of
dilletente IMHO, but to each his own.
===========================================================================
Dan Morisseau, N7ZXL - Tacoma, WA
GEnie:D.Morisseau Internet:dp...@dpm3.seanet.com (pref) OR dp...@prostar.com
===========================================================================
Dan Morisseau
<much that I agree with deleted for the sake of bandwidth>
>I would happily support rec.railway.* or rec.rail.* but I think that changing
>to misc.transport is complete STUPIDITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dick,
You are going to be lectured that you'll lose NONE of what you enjoy
here; but I and a number of others share your concern. The remarks amde by
some about "increasing the professionalism" concern me. I have been a railraod
professional and I don't come here to ballyhoo it. I come here for the
recreational railfan aspect. The sad trugth is that there are those who revel
in identifying themselves as "transportation profressionals" who aren't ahppy
with the recreational focus and have contrived any number of flimsy excuses to
change the hierarchy and, perhaps, the focus. I hope this consern is wrong.
My doubts, howevver, have prompted me to vote "no" and I've urged others who
share these concerns to do the same. Making such remarks, you will see, will
earn reprimands. To each their own.
JRCUTLER
Orc
>In article <debeer.46...@physnet.phys.wits.ac.za> deb...@physnet.phys.wits.ac.za (Willem de Beer) writes:
> > > > The name that is currently being
> > > > proposed was not acceptable to the majority, and was only
> > > > implemented after the original CFV was pocket-vetoed.
> >
> > that a silly statement like this is made: people claiming a majority
> > before it is tested by a vote!
>
>No, you will see that everywhere. But, Orc had a straw-poll and was outvoted.
However, that's not what I was talking about in my rebuttal.
This whole thing was beaten up in rec.railroad several months ago
and the most popular name ended up being rec.rail. However, the
RFD magically changed after it was threatened with a pocket veto --
although I'm sure the official story now is that rec.rail was never
even considered, there are some people who do remember it. And if
the straw poll is any indication of the final vote, it will fail.
You're stating that I think that only the members of the group
will vote. You are wrong -- if I thought that only the members of
rec.railroad were going to vote on a CFV which calls for
destruction of the group, I would have only posted my
counterargument there. I am trying to convince non-readers to vote
against this stupid CFV, because it's inappropriate to destroy an
existing group to seed another group that's located well out of the
way in misc.
The intent, from what I've been able to guess from rumor, is that
tale and group-advice want to make misc more popular by seeding it
with groups that won't be missed elsewhere. I think this will
fail, for the reasons I've already stated. Prior art has
recreational groups in rec, and, at least from the existance of,
oh, rec.audio and rec.autos, being a 'non-specialised' topic is not
a necessary condition for being in rec. If this CFV passes, I
expect that the resulting newsgroups will stagnate and by simple
attrition lose all the North American railroad enthusiasts who
currently post to rec.railroad. And in this regard I don't give a
fig about the non-north american traffic, because none of those
regional groups are being killed by this proposal, and so won't be
harmed when misc.transport.rail dies from unuse.
And I don't like the pocket veto.
Dan Hartung
applies his highly personal interpretation to public events:
> However, that's not what I was talking about in my rebuttal.
>This whole thing was beaten up in rec.railroad several months ago
>and the most popular name ended up being rec.rail. However, the
>RFD magically changed after it was threatened with a pocket veto --
>although I'm sure the official story now is that rec.rail was never
>even considered, there are some people who do remember it. And if
>the straw poll is any indication of the final vote, it will fail.
Nobody's ever denied, to my memory, that there was an original
intent to use the name rec.rail.
> You're stating that I think that only the members of the group
>will vote. You are wrong -- if I thought that only the members of
>rec.railroad were going to vote on a CFV which calls for
>destruction of the group, I would have only posted my
>counterargument there. I am trying to convince non-readers to vote
>against this stupid CFV, because it's inappropriate to destroy an
>existing group to seed another group that's located well out of the
>way in misc.
On the contrary. While there are several good reasons to consider
this move, none of them involves "seeding another group" (hierarchy?)
for the purposes of that hierarchy's success.
> The intent, from what I've been able to guess from rumor, is that
>tale and group-advice want to make misc more popular by seeding it
>with groups that won't be missed elsewhere. I think this will
>fail, for the reasons I've already stated.
This is of course a complete misunderstanding, probably deliberate,
from what I'd guess at this point. The purposes surround this group
specifically and rec more generally, not the popularity of misc.*.
One problem with rec.* is that a lot of groups were created there
simply because for the original computer geeks and scientists who
built the net, they were strictly hobby activities, ergo "rec".
There are, however, many more aspects to railroads than just those
of hobbyists, and this is what we seek to recognize.
Prior art has
>recreational groups in rec, and, at least from the existance of,
>oh, rec.audio and rec.autos, being a 'non-specialised' topic is not
>a necessary condition for being in rec.
That other guy's bad group name is never a justification for your
bad group name. As I've said before:
-- there are a number of railfans who post to rec.railroad,
arguably the vast majority
-- they do this as a recreational activity
-- this is not, however, an argument for staying in rec, as it
could reasonably apply to almost any given Usenet group
-- the majority fo the CONTENT is "non-recreational", i.e.
discussing particulars of rolling stock, routes, etc.
If this CFV passes, I
>expect that the resulting newsgroups will stagnate and by simple
>attrition lose all the North American railroad enthusiasts who
>currently post to rec.railroad. And in this regard I don't give a
>fig about the non-north american traffic, because none of those
>regional groups are being killed by this proposal, and so won't be
>harmed when misc.transport.rail dies from unuse.
It will only die from unuse if you choose not to post to it.
If, as we invite them to do, all readers of rec.railroad, whether
self-identified railfans or not, choose to use the new groups,
they will be just as successful and retain the same character.
The situation you threaten as a negative outcome is, in fact,
entirely in YOUR hands, so I'm not to concerned about it; if
it comes about, the blame will rest squarely on those of you
who have chosen to place petty politics above the success of
the newsgroup.
The rest of us will use and enjoy the new groups. I predict
it'll be a blast. Just come on over, have a drink; you're
welcome.
--
Daniel A. Hartung * dhar...@mcs.com * http://www.mcs.net/~dhartung/home.html
\\ You got a plan? / Try not to get killed. \\ Support the new hierarchy //
// Ivanova/Sheridan, "The Long Dark" // for the arts & humanities! \\
\\ Official Member, National B5 Emmy Lobby \\ Read news.groups. //
Dan Hartung
[new groups will stagnate, from o...@pell.com]
>
> This, I beleive fits the 'agenda" of those who regard themselves as some
>sosrt of superior, specialised " transportation professional" and who have
>reacted with dismay over suggestions that the newsgroup stay in the "rec"
>hierarchy. Ballyhooing their credentials marks such epople as a kind of
>dilletente IMHO, but to each his own.
Please state who has called themselves a transportation professional,
or "ballyhooed" their credentials.
Personally, I have not seen one, so I would be very curious to take
these individuals to task.
Dick Lord
>In article <D6o3t...@mv.mv.com> r...@francis.curtech.mv.com (Dick Lord) writes:
>
> <much that I agree with deleted for the sake of bandwidth>
>
>>I would happily support rec.railway.* or rec.rail.* but I think that changing
>>to misc.transport is complete STUPIDITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Dick,
>
> You are going to be lectured that you'll lose NONE of what you enjoy
>here; but I and a number of others share your concern. The remarks amde by
>some about "increasing the professionalism" concern me. I have been a railraod
>professional and I don't come here to ballyhoo it. I come here for the
>recreational railfan aspect. The sad trugth is that there are those who revel
>in identifying themselves as "transportation profressionals" who aren't ahppy
>with the recreational focus and have contrived any number of flimsy excuses to
>change the hierarchy and, perhaps, the focus. I hope this consern is wrong.
>My doubts, howevver, have prompted me to vote "no" and I've urged others who
>share these concerns to do the same. Making such remarks, you will see, will
>earn reprimands. To each their own.
>
So why not let the "professionals" have their own
misc.transport.rail.professional&wannabees.only
and leave the rest of us with a rec.rail hierarchy
The politics of destroying rec.railxxx really STINKS !
Orc
[On my comment that m.t.r would die of unuse]
>It will only die from unuse if you choose not to post to it.
Unless you believe that each and every current poster to
rec.railroad will continue to post forever to the new group, they
will have to be replaced by new users. New users, at least the
railroad enthusiasts, will not expect to find the discussion in
misc, and, barring keeping rec.railroad around to post periodic
"TRAIN DISCUSSIONS ARE IN..." or personal invitations (like the
invitation I received about misc.transport.urban-transit, which I
would have otherwise completely missed), they won't find it. And
_this_ is what will kill this silly group proposal off.
I'm not talking about misc being a 'lesser' group than rec, and
I don't know why you keep harping on that issue. Misc is a
perfectly fine heirarchy, it's just not appropriate for a newsgroup
for railroad enthusiasts.
If I'm looking for automobile enthusiasts, why, look, there's
rec.auto, and a million and one subgroups. Say I'm interested in
airplanes? Why, what a surprise -- here's the rec.aviation
heirarchy. High-end audio? Amazing -- rec.audio.high-end is
sitting right there for my viewing enjoyment. But for trains,
particularly a newsgroup "For fans of real trains,
ferroequinologists.", I'll look in the OBVIOUS place. *snort*
It's great if you want to keep out hoi polloi, but if a clique
is needed, there are always mailing lists.
I'm not disagreeing that there may need to be a group for
professional/techical discussions about railroads -- after
all, misc.transport.urban-transit is a great place to discuss
transportation policies and/or heap abuse on deserving transit
authorities -- but I'd not even bother looking in a technical
newsgroup for details on when the garratts start running in Wales
again, and I will not participate in an attempt to breathe
life-blood into such a group by slitting the throat of a healthy
and appropriately placed group.
The name of the group matters. When people are looking for
newsgroups, it's been my experience that they don't look at the
charter for those groups, they make guesses from the name, and,
boy-o-boy, is misc.transport.rail the WRONG name for that.
Andrew Toppan
Dick Lord (r...@francis.curtech.mv.com) shaped the electrons to say:
: So why not let the "professionals" have their own
: misc.transport.rail.professional&wannabees.only
: and leave the rest of us with a rec.rail hierarchy
(1) One of the original intents of this effort was to keep all the
railway/road in one place. A separate hierarchy will not
do that.
(2) How the heck does one define what is a "professional" interest
and what is a "railfan" interest? This is why a subject-based
split was rejected long ago.
Erik Evrard
: Despite what you say, the name of the group matters. When people
: are looking for newsgroups, they don't look at the charter for
: those groups, they make guesses from the name.
No they don't... they just do a find on "rail" and find the group(s),
no matter under which hierarchy they are located.
Erik Evrard
evr...@hep.iihe.ac.be
Dick Lord
>rec.railroad will continue to post forever to the new group, they
>will have to be replaced by new users. New users, at least the
>railroad enthusiasts, will not expect to find the discussion in
>misc, and, barring keeping rec.railroad around to post periodic
>"TRAIN DISCUSSIONS ARE IN..." or personal invitations (like the
>invitation I received about misc.transport.urban-transit, which I
>would have otherwise completely missed), they won't find it. And
>_this_ is what will kill this silly group proposal off.
>
Lots of other good stuff deleted to save bandwidth
>
> The name of the group matters. When people are looking for
>newsgroups, it's been my experience that they don't look at the
>charter for those groups, they make guesses from the name, and,
>boy-o-boy, is misc.transport.rail the WRONG name for that.
>
> ____
> david parsons \bi/ No on misc.transport.rail
> \/
Thank you David ! You did a much better job than I did of making this point.
Perhaps the "powers that be" would have all the rec. groups move to their
"appropriate" misc. categories !
Phons Bloemen
> In article <3m9cvq$egk...@pr.mcs.net>, Dan Hartung <dhar...@mcs.com> wrote:
> [On my comment that m.t.r would die of unuse]
> >It will only die from unuse if you choose not to post to it.
> The name of the group matters. When people are looking for
> newsgroups, it's been my experience that they don't look at the
> charter for those groups, they make guesses from the name, and,
> boy-o-boy, is misc.transport.rail the WRONG name for that.
\begin{newuser}
Let's see, i am a new user in July95.
Got his internet account just two days ago, and first tried Netscape
on the Web. Nice system, this usenet news. Lets try
it using this toy 'trumpet'. Oh, well, 6000 newsgroups. Does the
bloody program have some kind of search mechanism ? Let's see....
searching for 'rail' -> uk.railway (bogus group which spoils the
picture)
-> misc.transport.rail.europe (BINGO)
-> misc.transport.rail.americas
-> misc.transport.rail.australasia
-> misc.transport.rail.misc
-> rec.railroad
Actually, i am more interested in metros....
searching for 'metro' -> nothing found
Metro, those Americans call it transit....
searching for 'transit' -> misc.transport.urban-transit (BINGO)
Now, according to the lessons in those internet books, i first have to
'lurk' what is going on and read the FAQ of these groups
And after sme weeks, i understand where to go inside these groups.
One of them is bogus, one of them keeps on carrying the message it is
being faded out, the others have a lively discussion on the subjects i
am interested in. (and still have not seen a FAQ, but that is another
subject), Now i try my very first posting....
\end{newuser}
So mr. Ben Lee User does not find the rail groups in the misc hiearchy?
Get Real! He does not even know what misc, rec or Big7 stands for!
> ____
> david parsons \bi/ No on misc.transport.rail
> \/
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phons Bloemen http://ei0.ei.ele.tue.nl/~phons
Information & Communication Theory group Eindhoven University of Technology
Word(t) Klein Zacht Raampje Perfect voor '95? Stap over! TeX & LaTeX & Linux
Daniel Hartung
>In article <3m9cvq$egk...@pr.mcs.net>, Dan Hartung <dhar...@mcs.com> wrote:
>[On my comment that m.t.r would die of unuse]
>
>
>rec.railroad will continue to post forever to the new group, they
>will have to be replaced by new users. New users, at least the
>railroad enthusiasts, will not expect to find the discussion in
>misc, and, barring keeping rec.railroad around to post periodic
>"TRAIN DISCUSSIONS ARE IN..." or personal invitations (like the
>invitation I received about misc.transport.urban-transit, which I
>would have otherwise completely missed), they won't find it. And
>_this_ is what will kill this silly group proposal off.
I don't know of any compelling reason to expect it to be in rec,
either. "Let's see, railroads, yeah, that's recreational,
just like camping and board games."
> I'm not talking about misc being a 'lesser' group than rec, and
>I don't know why you keep harping on that issue. Misc is a
>perfectly fine heirarchy, it's just not appropriate for a newsgroup
>for railroad enthusiasts.
People keep using words like "denigrated" or "downgraded" or
"hidden" etc. I don't harp on the issue, they do. I simply
try to reply.
>sitting right there for my viewing enjoyment. But for trains,
>particularly a newsgroup "For fans of real trains,
>ferroequinologists.", I'll look in the OBVIOUS place. *snort*
Again, most people will do some search on the word 'rail'.
Every newsreader I've used except AOL's does this. You
assume that people will look in rec first. In fact, most
people these days seem to look through alt first. And
if they're going alphabetically, m comes before r....
>It's great if you want to keep out hoi polloi, but if a clique
>is needed, there are always mailing lists.
I do not want to keep anyone onut. I want all the regulars
of rec.railroad to come to the new groups, as well as
new readers who might not have before.
[unnecessarily viciuos metaphors deleted]
> The name of the group matters. When people are looking for
>newsgroups, it's been my experience that they don't look at the
>charter for those groups, they make guesses from the name, and,
>boy-o-boy, is misc.transport.rail the WRONG name for that.
Opinion, which I happen to disagree with.
--
Daniel A. Hartung | Support the new Arts/Humanities hierarchy!
dhar...@mcs.com |
dhar...@chinet.chinet.com | Look for the "humanities.misc" CFV
http://www.mcs.net/~dhartung/ | in news.announce.newgroups
Colin R. Leech
> The remarks amde by
> some about "increasing the professionalism" concern me.
What remarks? The comment was made earlier that misc.* would simply be a
place for political flamewars. The response was that control over this
resides with the people in the newsgroups, regardless of name. Nobody has
made the type off comment that you are referring to, in a derogatory way.
> The sad trugth is that there are those who revel
> in identifying themselves as "transportation profressionals" who aren't ahppy
> with the recreational focus and have contrived any number of flimsy excuses to
> change the hierarchy and, perhaps, the focus.
All I can say is: you are wrong. Everybody with an interest in rail will
be welcome in the new groups.
Colin R. Leech
>> Unless you believe that each and every current poster to
>>rec.railroad will continue to post forever to the new group
And why wouldn't we???
>> New users, at least the
>>railroad enthusiasts, will not expect to find the discussion in misc
Why is rec.* such an obvious place to go looking for a group? People use
keyword searches to find things. Recently there have been a dozen or so
railroad posts in misc.transport.urban-transit that really should have
been here. Obviously these poeple found m.t.u-t, and didn't look any
further because they thought that they had found all of the transport
newsgroups, and that m.t.u-t was the closest thing to a rail group that
they would find.
>> The name of the group matters. When people are looking for
>>newsgroups, it's been my experience that they don't look at the
>>charter for those groups, they make guesses from the name, and,
>>boy-o-boy, is misc.transport.rail the WRONG name for that.
And that is why most of us (according to your own poll, even) feel that
misc.transport is the RIGHT place to be. rec.* by definition implies that
non-recreational posts are not welcome; yet current practice indicates
otherwise.
Orc
>
>I don't know of any compelling reason to expect it [rec.railroad] to be in rec,
>either. "Let's see, railroads, yeah, that's recreational,
>just like camping and board games."
Well, the unfortunate truth is that railfanning is
recreational, no matter how much you might want to avoid the
taint of doing it for fun. I note that the aviation folks
have managed to get a newsgroup created that puts the
esoterica about aviation in misc.transport, so people can go out of
the way and argue about routing, fare policies, and the like, while
still keeping rec.aviation around for the enthusiasts. Why not
railroads (aside from the small detail that there has been, to my
knowledge, no discussions about routing, fare policies, and the
like in rec.railroad, and thus no real need to a
professional/technical group)?
Andrew Toppan
Orc (o...@pell.com) shaped the electrons to say:
: I note that the aviation folks
: have managed to get a newsgroup created that puts the
: esoterica about aviation in misc.transport, so people can go out of
: the way and argue about routing, fare policies, and the like, while
: still keeping rec.aviation around for the enthusiasts.
Two things you are missing here:
-misc.transport.air-industry was an effort folks from rec.travel.air
to create a group for the discussion of the airline industry (a
discussion by those interested in it, not just 'professionals'
-the first few days of m.t.a-r have been a discussion of the
infrastructure, policies, financial condition and future of the
industry. Not very much different from (shock!) rec.railroad.
Glenn Laubaugh
Dick Lord <r...@francis.curtech.mv.com> wrote:
>
>So why not let the "professionals" have their own
>
>misc.transport.rail.professional&wannabees.only
>
>and leave the rest of us with a rec.rail hierarchy
>
>
of the newgroups, and notice that there are several groups in the
rec.aviation.*
rec.bicycles.*
rec.boats.*
rec.autos.*
areas. So, why not have rec.railroad.* ?
Andrew Henry
>Why not railroads (aside from the small detail that there has been, to
>my knowledge, no discussions about routing, fare policies, and the like
>in rec.railroad, and thus no real need to a professional/technical group)?
You are ignoring the discussions of rail _passengers_. In the UK,
the rail system is used for a variety of purposes, and "recreation"
is just one of them.
Subjects which do not fall easily into specific classifications
(rec, or soc) are better in a non-specific one. misc.transport.*
is not just for "professional" or "technical" posts. It is for
practical, recreational, professional, technical or even miscellaneous
posts about transport.
--
Andrew Henry Frequently Asked Questions for rec.autos.sport v1.4
A.H....@bath.ac.uk <ftp://mgu.bath.ac.uk/pub/rec.autos.sport>
University of Bath, UK <http://www.bath.ac.uk/~bspahh/rasfaq.html>
Sempre Gilles <http://www.bath.ac.uk/~bspahh/gilles/gilles.html>
Orc
>In the referenced article, o...@pell.com (Orc) writes:
>
>>Why not railroads (aside from the small detail that there has been, to
>>my knowledge, no discussions about routing, fare policies, and the like
>>in rec.railroad, and thus no real need to a professional/technical group)?
>
>You are ignoring the discussions of rail _passengers_.
Well, no, I'm not. If there's a need for a non-recreational
railway group, I would support it 100% *in addition to* the current
group for railway enthusiasts. But the vote in question didn't
provide for this, unless one wanted to argue in favor of every
proposal except m.t.r.m.
>Subjects which do not fall easily into specific classifications
>(rec, or soc) are better in a non-specific one. misc.transport.*
>is not just for "professional" or "technical" posts. It is for
>practical, recreational, professional, technical or even miscellaneous
>posts about transport.
This doesn't wash. If there is a large body of non-recreational
postings about railways, that's supporting evidence for creating
additional groups to cover discussions about them (similar to the
million and one subgroups under rec.aviation, and the new
misc.transport group that is intended to cover the non-recreational
parts of aviation), and not to uproot the existing group to breathe
life into the new ones. If the intent is to move all the
vehicle-fan newsgroups into misc.transport, an ad-hoc approach to
it is the worst possible approach, since it will disarrange the
heirarchy as the smaller and easier to destroy groups are moved
around while the larger ones remain exactly where they are (if, for
example, tale & group-advice tried to force rec.autos into
misc.transport.autos by hijacking a new subgroup, the readership of
rec.autos.* would probably vote NO en masse.)
I've chatted with some of the people who voted for the
misc.transport.air-industry proposal, and they are mystified at
this attempt to destroy rec.railroad in favor of misc.transport.rail.
Since this renaming seems stupid to nonrailfans, I don't think that
the argument that misc.transport is the "proper" place holds much
water.
If this (obstupid: stupid) proposal is defeated, I'll sponsor a
misc.transport.rail-industry newsgroup for non-railfan discussions
as soon as it's proper to do so. If this proposal isn't defeated,
then I'll be one of the many sites that won't pay attention to the
rmgroup and will continue to keep rec.railroad around for the
railfans.
____
david parsons \bi/ o...@pell.com
\/
Dan Morisseau
> If the
>final votes in this CFV reflect the straw poll I did, the proposal
>will fail.
Either way, we may want to consider waiting for the official announcment
in news.announce or wherever and then filing an appeal. I think there is
sufficient dissent from the "official line" that there may be some misgivings
over going through with it. What do you think, Orc?
Dik T. Winter
> If this (obstupid: stupid) proposal is defeated, I'll sponsor a
> misc.transport.rail-industry newsgroup for non-railfan discussions
> as soon as it's proper to do so.
That would be a very stupid newsgroup. It would be for manufacturers
of railroad vehicles and such; at least that would be my interpretation.
So all things concerning passengers I would post to rec.railroad (yes
I think being a passengers can be a recreationi rather than an industry
related subject). And, yes, I voted YES.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924098
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: d...@cwi.nl
Orc
Colin R. Leech <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>Orc wrote:
>>> Unless you believe that each and every current poster to
>>>rec.railroad will continue to post forever to the new group
>
>And why wouldn't we???
People move on. They graduate from college, they find other
interests, they grow old and die, they lose net access, there are
any of a thousand reasons why they might leave. Even in the 16
years the net has existed, you'd be hard pressed to find people who
were there at the start and are still posting (I am one, I can
think of one or two others, but many many others have left.)
>>> New users, at least the
>>>railroad enthusiasts, will not expect to find the discussion in misc
>
>Why is rec.* such an obvious place to go looking for a group?
Because it's where recreational groups are traditionally located.
>And that is why most of us (according to your own poll, even) feel that
>misc.transport is the RIGHT place to be.
That wasn't a stunning majority, though, and that was after a
month or so of "you can't fight city hall -- if we don't do m.t.r
The System Administrators won't let us split the group." If the
final votes in this CFV reflect the straw poll I did, the proposal
will fail.
>rec.* by definition implies that
>non-recreational posts are not welcome;
No it does not. Look at rec.audio.high-end, please, if you want
to see a place where non-rec postings are accepted in a recreational
group. The only people I've seen complain about the recreational
emphasis of the existing group are a few outspoken folks from
australia and europe, and I think that there should be a
misc.transport.rail-industry group, similar to
misc.transport.air-industry, for such professional and technical posts.
The only misc.transport group that even vaguely touches on railways now
is misc.transport.urban-transit, which is a perfectly fine group, but
not if you're a trolley fanatic and don't care about such things as
busses versus light rail and/or the economic/social rationale of mass
transit versus privately-owned automobiles.
Anyway, pell.com won't be carrying any non-technical railway
groups in misc.transport. I don't think that scattering the rec.
groups throughout the big seven makes the namespace anything other
than a officially sanctioned version of the roiling chaos that is
alt., so I'll keep the group in the right place, where people can
find it.
Andrew Toppan
: Either way, we may want to consider waiting for the official
: announcment
: in news.announce or wherever and then filing an appeal. I think there is
: sufficient dissent from the "official line" that there may be some
: misgivings over going through with it. What do you think, Orc?
You can't challenge the vote except in case of fraud or forged votes
on either side. "I don't like the results" is not a valid reason to
challenge.
Orc
Dan Morisseau <dp...@dpm3.seanet.com> wrote:
>In article <D75Lt...@pell.com> o...@pell.com (Orc) writes:
>>final votes in this CFV reflect the straw poll I did, the proposal
>>will fail.
>
>
>in news.announce or wherever and then filing an appeal. I think there is
>sufficient dissent from the "official line" that there may be some misgivings
>over going through with it. What do you think, Orc?
Well, as I've said before, my site will not honor any newgroups
coming from this CFV. If the vote passes, all it will do is reduce
the number of postings to rec.railroad (but not eliminate them --
many sites don't pay attention to rmgroups from anyone and won't
kill off groups that have traffic.) I think I've made my
objections to the renaming known sufficiently by now, but I'll be
pleased to be a sore loser or vengeful winner, no matter how the
vote turns out.
____
david parsons \bi/ A system administrator.
\/
Dick Lord
>Shredder applied to followups.
>
>Orc (o...@pell.com) shaped the electrons to say:
>
>: I note that the aviation folks
>: have managed to get a newsgroup created that puts the
>: esoterica about aviation in misc.transport, so people can go out of
>: the way and argue about routing, fare policies, and the like, while
>: still keeping rec.aviation around for the enthusiasts.
>
>
>Two things you are missing here:
>-misc.transport.air-industry was an effort folks from rec.travel.air
> to create a group for the discussion of the airline industry (a
> discussion by those interested in it, not just 'professionals'
>-the first few days of m.t.a-r have been a discussion of the
> infrastructure, policies, financial condition and future of the
> industry. Not very much different from (shock!) rec.railroad.
>
>Andrew Toppan --- el...@wpi.edu --- http://www.wpi.edu/~elmer/
>Railroads, Ships and Aircraft Homepage, Tom Clancy FAQ Archive
THANK YOU, Andrew ! You could not have stated my viewpoint better !
Despite your long attempts to refute the point, you have concisely stated the
crux of the matter and lent your support to preserving a rec.rail !
Indeed, a significant part of rec.rail content of late has been discussion
of "infrastructure, policies, financial condition and future of the
industry." This is an entirely different kind of topic from the discussions
on steam locomotive preservation and how block signals work.
Nothing would please me more than to see discussions of "infrastructure,
policies, financial condition and future of the industry" be moved to
<misc.transport.rail> while still keeping <rec.rail> for recreational interest.
Those interested in both aspects can participate in both groups.
I think the parallels to <rec.aviation> / <misc.transport.airplane> are
remarkable.
> Not very much different from (shock!) rec.railroad.
Thank you, Andrew, for finally coming to your senses and not only
acknowledging the two different forums, but in doing so, also lending
support to the argument to preserve <rec.rail> ;-)
Dan Morisseau
>You can't challenge the vote except in case of fraud or forged votes
>on either side. "I don't like the results" is not a valid reason to
>challenge.
Andrew,
I never said that dissatisfaction with the outcome was the reason for a
challenge (if any). I will go so far as to say that I know of no forged votes,
either. Does "fraud in the inducement" count or must it be fraud in the
tallying? I'm only pointing out to Orc some of the options that any user is
entitled to consider where they feel suitably aggreived. It is a topic for
consideration, nothing more. Don't get so worked up.
Warren Lavallee
rec.railroad reorganization - 381 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
277 91 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.transport.rail.americas
279 89 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.transport.rail.europe
270 91 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.transport.rail.australia-nz
267 102 : Yes Yes : Yes : misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad)
3 invalid votes
misc.transport.rail.americas passed on Tue Mar 28 04:24:27 1995
misc.transport.rail.europe passed on Tue Mar 28 02:43:28 1995
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz passed on Tue Mar 28 04:24:27 1995
misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad) passed on Tue Mar 28 05:56:49 1995
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES
and NO) votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO
votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted.
If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the passed group(s)
shortly thereafter.
Newsgroups Lines:
misc.transport.rail.americas Railroads & railways in North & South America.
misc.transport.rail.europe Railroads & railways in all of Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz Railways in Australia & New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc Miscellaneous rail issues & discusions.
CHARTER
misc.transport.rail.*:
---------------------
The misc.transport.rail.* newsgroups are for discussion of all aspects
of railways, railroads and rail transportation in general.
Topics that will be discussed include, but are in no way limited
to, train watching, railfanning, operations, history, preservation,
technology, locomotives, freight and passenger cars, political, economic
and social issues regarding rail transport, the future of rail transport
and the infrastructure of rail transport. This list is not meant to
be all-inclusive, it is simply intended to give an idea of the topics
appropriate to the newsgroup(s).
These groups are meant to include all discussions and issues regarding
rail transport. Therefore, everyone, including railfans of all types,
those in the rail transport industry, rail passengers and anyone
interested in trains is welcome (and encouraged) to participate in the
discussions.
Commercial posts and advertising are not appropriate for these groups,
but individuals may post for sale messages for railroad related books,
magazines, etc. and legally obtained collectors items and railroadiana.
Binary postings of any sort are not appropriate.
Announcements of railfan trips, excursions, exhibitions and other such
events are encouraged.
misc.transport.rail.americas:
----------------------------
For discussions relating to North, South and Central America.
misc.transport.rail.europe:
--------------------------
For discussions relating to Europe.
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz:
--------------------------------
For discussions relating to Australia and New Zealand.
misc.transport.rail.misc:
-------------------------
For discussions relating to geographic areas not included in the other
misc.transport.rail.* groups. Also for discussions that relate to two or
more of the misc.transport.rail.* groups, several geographic areas, or
the entire world. This will include discussions of technical issues that
are not specific to any one continent.
rec.railroad reorg Final Vote Ack
[This collection of addresses is (C)1995 by Consultix Computer Services.
Permission is strictly NOT given to use this list or any part thereof to
make a mailing list, or for mass-mailings. Any other use is fine.]
misc.transport.rail.misc (replaces rec.railroad) ------+
misc.transport.rail.australia-nz -----+|
misc.transport.rail.europe ----+||
misc.transport.rail.americas ---+|||
||||
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CrO...@aol.com Craig O'Connell YYYY
crou...@flidh103.delcoelect.com K. CROUCH ----
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YYYY
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L.Ki...@eda.gu.edu.au Leigh John KIRWAN YYYY
la...@win.tue.nl Twan Laan YYYY
lam...@a1.esvax.umc.dupont.com Craig Lamison YYYY
lar...@io.com Larry Smith YYYY
l...@hpfcler.fc.hp.com Larry Rupp NNNN
le...@empire.apana.org.au Leslie Brown YYYY
lgl...@leland.Stanford.EDU Charles Gleich NNNN
l...@sics.se Lars-Henrik Eriksson -Y-Y
list-...@dream.hb.north.de Martin Schr"oder YYYY
lita...@esstin.u-nancy.fr Sebastien LITAIZE (lita...@esstin.u-nancy. YYYY
lro...@free.org Luis A. Rodriguez NNNN
Ludo.VanH...@hep.iihe.ac.be Ludo Van Helleputte YYYY
lup...@citr.uq.oz.au Tony Lupton YYYY
M.D....@csc.liv.ac.uk Martin Beer YYYY
M.J.Je...@damtp.cam.ac.uk Michael Jennings YYYY
ma...@po.CWRU.Edu Michael A Chary YYYY
mad...@scripps.edu Jens Chr. Madsen YYYY
ma...@nmr.lpc.ethz.ch Matthias Ernst YYYY
man...@dow.com Michael Mang YYYN
mann...@egr.msu.edu Richard Manning NNNN
ma...@csv.warwick.ac.uk Rolf Mantel YYYY
ma...@algorithmics.com Marc Moorcroft NNNN
ma...@ic.mankato.mn.us Marc J Burkhart M.D. YNNN
ma...@nikhefk.nikhef.nl Marco van Uden YYYY
mar...@knoware.nl Marcel Jacobs YYYY
Mark....@Bristol.ac.uk Mark Gould YYYY
ma...@oar.net Mark Borchers NYYN
ma...@ichips.intel.com Mark Gonzales NNNN
Mark_S._Petersen#U...@notes.up.com Mark S. Petersen Y---
ma...@minerva.cis.yale.edu Leon Marr NNNN
mar...@1776.COM Martha J. Coe YYYY
mat...@sleeper.apana.org.au Matthew Geier YYYY
mcn...@fs4.in.umist.ac.uk Bernard J. Treves Brown YYYY
Michal.J...@fuw.edu.pl Michal Jankowski YYYY
MID...@SOPHIA.SPH.UNC.EDU Robert Middour YNNY
mi...@primenet.com Michael Quinlan NNNN
m...@graphics.cornell.edu Mitch Collinsworth YY-Y
m...@RedBrick.COM M Mike Taksar YY-Y
mobr...@mailbox.syr.edu Michael Brandt YYYN
Morten...@nrpa.no Morten Sickel NNNN
mo...@bastille.cchem.berkeley.edu David YYYY
msat...@jungle.com Michael Sattler YYYY
mshe...@averroes.helios.nd.edu Michael Sheliga NNNN
mu...@max.tiac.net Bengt Muten YYYY
Nate...@Dartmouth.EDU Nate Edel YYYY
ncl...@hfnet.bt.co.uk Nigel Cliffe, ncl...@hfnet.bt.co.uk YYYY
nda...@io.org Nigel Allen YYYN
ni...@inferno.fc.hp.com Nick Ingegneri NNNN
ni...@netcom.com Art Nicolaysen YYYY
Nicolas.H...@imag.fr Nicolas Holzschuch YYYY
nor...@twinski.toppoint.de Norbert Hoffmann YYYY
nru...@io.org Nicholas Russon YYYN
n...@sandes.dk Nick Sandru YYYY
nwa...@alpha.lands.sa.gov.au Neil Waller YYYY
n...@rb.icl.co.uk Nick Leverton YYYY
n...@pcgate.rte.com Naor Wallach YYYY
obe...@uranus.win-uk.net Anthony M Lenton YYYY
o...@gehenna.apple.com david parsons NNNN
ot...@vaxb.acs.unt.edu M. Otto ----
o...@snakemail.hut.fi Otto-Ville Ronkainen YYYY
P.J.v...@kub.nl P.J. van der Veer YYYY
Patrick...@vlsi.com Patrick Edmond YYYY
Patrick...@hep.iihe.ac.be Patrick Van Esch YYYY
pau...@perth.DIALix.oz.au Paul Pickford --Y-
Paul_...@vos.stratus.com Paul Green YYYY
PAV...@Pap.UniVie.AC.AT Andreas Pavlik YYYY
pch...@ix.netcom.com Peter G. Chase YYYY
per...@ipncls.in2p3.fr Allon Percus YYYY
pertti...@ntc.nokia.com Pertti Tapola YYYY
pfa...@anl433.erlm.siemens.de Gotthard Pfander YYYY
philip....@physics.oxford.ac.uk Philip George YYYY
phi...@berlin.helios.nd.edu Paul Jefferson Hinton NNNN
ph...@ei.ele.tue.nl Phons Bloemen YYYY
pierre...@bcu.unil.ch Pierre Keller YYYY
pj...@leicester.ac.uk Pete Humble YYYY
pl...@comp.uark.edu Peter Laws NNNN
pok...@inforamp.net Dusan Pokorny YYY-
pol...@haywards.win-uk.net Tony Polson YYYY
pro...@namu01.gwdg.de Ralf Propach YYYY
ps...@rabbit.INS.CWRU.Edu Paul Didelius YYYY
pti...@byron.apana.org.au Paul Tilden YYYY
r....@uws.edu.au Dr Robert Stuart Lee YYYY
r...@railnet.nshore.org Rick DeMattia YYYY
radr...@panix.com Rebecca Drayer YYYY
ra...@aber.ac.uk Richard Alan Huss YYYY
r...@clarke.demon.co.uk Ray W Clarke YYYY
RCST...@urc.tue.nl Maarten Deen NNNN
r...@moontarz.nuance.com Ryan Waldron NNNN
r...@curtech.MV.COM Richard H. Lord NNNN
rich...@cougar.multiline.com.au Richard Stallard YYYY
rick.he...@actronix.com Rick J Hemingway YYYY
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller YYYY
ric...@cco.caltech.edu Keith Rickert NNNN
ri_...@PAVO.Concordia.CA Roman Hawryluk NNNN
rmi...@execpc.com Rick Miller YYYY
r...@gsb-pound.stanford.edu Robert N. Ashcroft NNNN
rne...@media.mit.edu Ron Newman YYYY
ro...@per.dms.csiro.au Robert Corner YYYY
robe...@hooked.net Robert Marshall NYYY
robe...@sci.kun.nl Robert Klein-Douwel YYYY
rob...@liii.com Robert Schoenfeld NNNN
robs...@u.washington.edu robert smith ---N
rog...@eiffel.demon.co.uk Roger Browne YYYY
rol...@Afrodite.DoCS.UU.SE Roland N. Bol YYYY
r...@abiss.smst290.att.com Ron Bach YYYY
ro...@foxearth.demon.co.uk Ross Burgess YYYY
rta...@dra.hmg.gb Roger Taylor NNNN
r...@mtuxj.att.com R. T. Wurth NYYN
RWM...@aol.com Rick Moran NNNN
S.Nic...@ed.ac.uk Sandy Nicholson YYYY
s84...@minyos.xx.rmit.EDU.AU David Hoadley YYYY
SA...@UG.EDS.COM Wayne Sanders-Unrein NNNN
s...@find2.denet.dk Steen Thomassen YYYY
s...@itd.dsto.gov.au Scott Davis YYYY
sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu D. A. Scocca YYYY
Scot_Os...@TERC.edu Scot Osterweil YYYY
SEEF...@UWSTOUT.EDU Jon Seefeldt YNNY
sill...@smtpgw.liebert.com Steve Sillato NNNN
sim...@maths.uwa.edu.au Michael Kenneth Simpson YYYY
sk...@rahul.net Bill Rockefeller YYYY
sl...@tyrell.net Jim Rueschhoff YYYY
s...@research.att.com Steven M. Bellovin NNNN
sme...@fys1.fgg.EUR.NL Jeroen Smeets YYNY
smi...@pobox.upenn.edu Sandy F. Smith, Jr. YYYY
SPRE...@stpc.wi.leidenuniv.nl Jeroen Sprenger YYYY
s...@math.uio.no Stig R. Kristoffersen NNNN
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown NNNN
stan...@lunacity.com KEVIN STANDLEE YYYY
st...@netcom.com Stef Jones NNNN
st...@shalfiow.demon.co.uk steve holden YYYY
Steve_...@vos.stratus.com Stephen G. Ketcham (Steve_...@vos.st YYYY
st...@zk3.dec.com Cliff Straw NNNN
SUPER...@pmt11.et.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Martin Wollschlaeger YYYY
sw...@bokop.win-uk.net S.W.F. Borthwick NYYY
s_...@ira.uka.de Tobias Benjamin Koehler YYYY
tac...@ccs.carleton.ca Christina Craft YYYN
tedm...@acslink.net.au Trevor Edmonds YYYY
ter...@ifi.uio.no Terje Knudsen YYYY
Terry_...@mindlink.bc.ca Terry Madsen YYYY
th...@chevron.com Michiel J. Hanou th...@chevron.com YYYY
tim.an...@email.HUB.TEK.COM Tim Anderson NNNN
t...@mcs.kent.edu Tom Hedington YYYY
tme...@bearriver.com Anthony Meadow YYYY
Tom.He...@hep.iihe.ac.be Tom Heiremans YYYY
t...@1776.COM Thomas K. Coe YYYY
to...@jumbo.hna.com.au Tony Middleton YYYY
trai...@nwu.edu Jim Ellwanger YYYY
tvan...@macbel.be Theo van Riet YYYY
u24...@vm.uci.kun.nl Rian van der Borgt YYYY
UA...@IBM3090.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE Sven Manias YYYY
uni...@RT66.com Sheri Hurt YYYY
vanB...@geo.tudelft.nl Krist van Besien YYYY
vanc...@bga.com H. van Cleef NNNN
van...@cisco.com Andrew Valencia NNNN
vel...@netcom.com Paul Veltman <vel...@netcom.com> YYYY
VETD...@UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU John R. Lewis YYYY
VOR...@ccm.UManitoba.CA VORST, Jes (Dutch) or Jesse (English) YYNN
W.J....@kub.nl W.J. Dons YYYY
wcwa...@cuhk.hk William Watson YYYY
we...@msc.edu Wes Barris NNNN
wil...@uni-muenster.de Klaus Wilting -Y--
wolf...@lyxys.ka.sub.org Wolfgang Zenker YYYY
w...@hpuerca.atl.hp.com Bill Sutton YYYY
wth...@decster.uta.edu Billy Harris ---N
Yves....@enst-bretagne.fr Yves Duflot YYYY
zeev...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Scott W. Zeevaart YYYY
zel...@STL-17SIMA.ARMY.MIL Rich Zellich NNNN
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
edwi...@perth.DIALix.oz.au Edwin Johnston
! No vote statement in message
Ket...@aol.com Robert G. Mrotek
! No vote statement in message
ts9...@badger.ac.BrockU.CA TERENCE WILLIAM SCHELTEMA
! No vote statement in message
Colin R. Leech
In a previous posting, Orc (o...@pell.com) writes:
> is misc.transport.urban-transit, which is a perfectly fine group, but
> not if you're a trolley fanatic
Trolley fans are welcome in m.t.u-t, and there are several there already.
Discussions of technical issues (like the traction motors used, for
example), or what types of trolleys were used in various cities, were a bit
slow off the mark compared to other topics, but are now present both for
electric fans and for bus fans.
Johan Borkhuis
> Well, the easy way to keep a rec.railxxx heirarchy around is to
> simply ask your news administrator to keep rec.railroad around.
I don't think that any news admin should do this: this group is officially
replaced by the misc groups.
Groeten,
Johan
--
o o o o o o o . . . ___________________________________
o _____ || Johan Borkhuis |
.][__n_n_|DD[ ====_____ | jo...@borksoft.xs4all.nl |
>(________|__|_[_________]_|________________________________|
_/oo OOOOO oo` ooo ooo 'o!o!o o!o!o`
Peter Laws
> Well, the easy way to keep a rec.railxxx heirarchy around is to
>simply ask your news administrator to keep rec.railroad around.
>That's what I'm doing, as previously threatened, and having to
I'm doing the same. When will the results be posted or did they just not
get here yet?
Peter Laws<pl...@comp.uark.edu>|"Suppose you were a politician. Now suppose you
n5uwy@ka5bml.#nwar.ar.usa.noam |were an idiot. Ah, but I repeat myself."-Twain
James Sterbenz
Johan Borkhuis <jo...@borksoft.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Orc (o...@pell.com) wrote:
>> Well, the easy way to keep a rec.railxxx heirarchy around is to
>> simply ask your news administrator to keep rec.railroad around.
>I don't think that any news admin should do this: this group is officially
>replaced by the misc groups.
Most news admins WON'T do this, thus those few that still have
rec.railroad will be posting only for themselves (and I suspect that
propagation will be so bad that even these sites will not be able to
share the group). The majority of those which have only
misc.transport.rail.* will never see this traffic, and those who are
denied misc.transport.rail.* will have to find another site if they
wish to participate in what most of Usenet is doing.
Rec.railroad is dead. The few news admins that don't play by the
guidelines for the big 8 should at least tell their users why they've
decided to do so, and that they will have to go elsewhere to get the
traffic back.
--
James P.G. Sterbenz |PGP Key ID = CBBA3CD9 | Sr. MTS, GTE Labs
jpgs@{acm|ieee}.org |print=15 95 33 24 5C E3 54 E1| 40 Sylvan Road MS-61
+1 617 466 2786 | 9C 54 29 7E 47 D7 1A 8C| Waltham, MA 02254 USA
http://info.gte.com/jpgs |finger: j...@dworkin.wustl.edu| [opinions are mine]