decal paper
William W. Rooke
print to Walther's decal paper, the image is fuzzy and some colors,
especially white, aren't here at all. I assume that it is because of
the non absorbtion quality of the paper. What do you use for decal
paper?
Bill
--
Amtrak -- The only way to fly!!
JBortle
>My HP 382 color printer gives me a fine image on plain paper, but when I
>print to Walther's decal paper, the image is fuzzy and some colors,
>especially white, aren't here at all. I assume that it is because of
>the non absorbtion quality of the paper. What do you use for decal
>paper?
>
decals. As to the color white not printing, it's because white is not there in
the inks to supply it! Ink-jet and lazer printers normally utilize the white of
the paper itself to render that color when necessary.
The shiny surface of the decal paper is causing your inks to bead up, thus the
softness of the letters. Micro-Mark sells a decal paper better suited to
ink-jet printers (which must be overcoated with a fixer after printing) but
results are mixed.
Lazer and ALPS-type printers do a better job (especially the latter, which I
use for decals). In any case, one should slightly roughen the surface of the
decal paper so as to allow the colors to get a better "bite". If you want white
decals I believe the only choice is an ALPS printer, which uses a special white
color ribbon.
jbortle
Train Man
Odds are, your printer doesn't print white (it just leaves it blank on
regular paper).. I haven't tried any yet but, Micro Mark sells decal paper
for inkjet printers. I made the mistake of trying a freinds suggestion of
spraying the paper with a matt before printing (let it dry if you want to
try it).. I wound up replacing the ink cartrages.. Beyond that, a print shop
may be able to put your artwork on to decal paper.. Alps makes (or made) a
printer that uses dry ink and is much better suited for this.. There was a
thread here a couple years ago on it, perhaps you can scan deja-news for
it... Just look for ALPS..
Jeff
Trainman
name is "super-cal".).
It works fine for blackand very dark colors, but the lighter the color the
less satisfactory the results..
Don
--
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Train Man <jsi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A95EA04...@home.com...
Mike Tennent
>My HP 382 color printer gives me a fine image on plain paper, but when I
>print to Walther's decal paper, the image is fuzzy and some colors,
>especially white, aren't here at all. I assume that it is because of
>the non absorbtion quality of the paper. What do you use for decal
>paper?
>
>Bill
You also might check to make sure you're printing in the highest
quality mode - usually called something like "Photo-quaility." That
can make a difference.
Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"
Ironman Canada '98
Great Floridian '99, '00
JBortle
>I have used the ink-jet paper from Micromark and others (The actual brand
>name is "super-cal".).
>
>It works fine for blackand very dark colors, but the lighter the color the
>less satisfactory the results..
>
thickness the colors are being laid down they are semi-transparent and,
particularly for the lighter colors, allow the color of the car to show
through. The only way around this is to have a printed what can keep the paper
in register and double print the item. ALPS printers can get around this
problem by first laying down a white base and then doing the color printing
over it (the process does take two passes). This makes the decal almost opaque.
jbortle
Dan L. Merkel
>
> Lazer and ALPS-type printers do a better job (especially the latter,
> which I use for decals).
I'd be curious in hearing about your (and others') experience using this
technique. I've looked at an ALPS printer several times, and there were
articles in MR about using one to create your own decals. I guess I
shied away from it when one of the articles commented that colors that
required the blending of two or more primary ink colors made "little
pepperoni pizzas" on the decals. I took this to mean that the dpi
resolution on that particular printer wasn't that high and the
individual pixels were pretty big.
Anyone else???
dlm
--
Dan L. Merkel
bright.net-BRT
===== > > Your Local Link to the Internet in
Findlay and in Hancock County < < =====
Christian
| I'd be curious in hearing about your (and others') experience using this
| technique. I've looked at an ALPS printer several times, and there were
| articles in MR about using one to create your own decals. I guess I
| shied away from it when one of the articles commented that colors that
| required the blending of two or more primary ink colors made "little
| pepperoni pizzas" on the decals. I took this to mean that the dpi
| resolution on that particular printer wasn't that high and the
| individual pixels were pretty big.
There are commercial decal companies using ALPs printers. (Including one of
the biggies.) You will not know that they are different from "regular"
decals. The DPI for an ALP is 2400. Match that!
Dithering is a problem with colors that are out of the printer's gambit.
You adjust the CMYK for that. Or use layers of solid color mixing. Orange
seems the biggest problem. (These are common color printing problems that
can be really annoying for those of us not in the printing business, but can
be overcome.) (Also require better than bottom of the heap software and a
learning curve.)
No other printer prints metallic colors or white. Nor, for that matter,
opaque color.
The biggest problem is that the printers have not been available for about a
year. No problem with cart supplies. ALP still supplies OEM versions under
the Okidata brand in Asian markets.
CTucker
NY
Dave Gayman
and especially in N scale. THe MD-2010 is a 600 x 600 resolution
printer that in practice works out to be about magazine color
reproduction quality (around 130 lines per inch). If you look closely
at a photo in a mag, you'll see that picture elements are made up of
these "pizza patterns."
However, the high-end MD series (5000, I think), if it's still
available anywhere, has a "dye sumblimation" mode which, except for
very occasional banding in large areas of light colors, can't be
differentiated from a photograph, it's so dot / pixel free.
The last time I looked at this printer it was expensive, and the dye
sublimation cartridges were pretty pricey as well. I don't know if
white is available in the dye-sub cartridges, but it should be
possible to pre-print areas with the regular white cartridge.
The Alps printer cartridges are really ribbons coated with colored wax
that is deposited on the paper by micro-areas of heat on the print
head. The wax will deposit on any reasonable surface, including on
itself.
Plus, the "photo quality" modes of the MD-1000 and MD-5000 are pretty
smooth as well, though you'll still see dot patterns. They're either
1200 x 1200 or 600 x 1200 or even higher resolution, achieved by
multiple passes of the head per color.
Color printing at all resolutions, by the way, is done with at least 4
passes - 1 each for cyan, magenta and yellow and 1 for black. The
printer actually backs the paper up to the top of the page, changes
cartridges, and starts the next pass.
In general, on my printer, colors (especially the yellows and greens)
are not as vibrant and strong as conventional ink-jet printers. I
think there's simply less pigment laid down by the Alps.
On the other hand, the "ink" never dries in the printer, since it's
already dry. Plus, you never have to use perfectly good ink for
cleaning the head. And my informal sun-fade tests indicate that the
colors are extremely color-fast -- though some inkjet manufacturers
have begun to fix their problems with fading.
Dave
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:54:40 -0500, "Dan L. Merkel"
<brt...@bright.net> wrote:
Howard R. Garner
Dave Gayman wrote:
>
> I have an old MD-2010 that would certainly create this effect in HO
> and especially in N scale. THe MD-2010 is a 600 x 600 resolution
> printer that in practice works out to be about magazine color
> reproduction quality (around 130 lines per inch). If you look closely
> at a photo in a mag, you'll see that picture elements are made up of
> these "pizza patterns."
>
> However, the high-end MD series (5000, I think), if it's still
> available anywhere, has a "dye sumblimation" mode which, except for
> very occasional banding in large areas of light colors, can't be
> differentiated from a photograph, it's so dot / pixel free.
>
Do not use the Dye-Sub mode for decals. The heat from the printhead
combined with the decal paper will destroy your printhead.
There is an alps decal email list on yahoogroups
demetre_argiro
>JBortle wrote:
>>
>> Lazer and ALPS-type printers do a better job (especially the latter,
>> which I use for decals).
>
>I'd be curious in hearing about your (and others') experience using this
>technique. I've looked at an ALPS printer several times, and there were
>articles in MR about using one to create your own decals. I guess I
>shied away from it when one of the articles commented that colors that
>required the blending of two or more primary ink colors made "little
>pepperoni pizzas" on the decals. I took this to mean that the dpi
>resolution on that particular printer wasn't that high and the
>individual pixels were pretty big.
Yeah, I'll respond to that "pizza" BS. No doubt these are the same guys who are
offended because the handrails are 3/1000ths of an inch too big in diameter. You
gotta learn to spot the anal-retentive perfectionists. Nothing will ever make one of
those people happy. They only exist to find fault.
If you look at an ALPS printed decal under magnification you can see the color dots-
sometimes. By the same token you must also understand that if you look at your
monitor screen- the one you are looking at right now- under the same magnification
you will also see the same dots. I have tons of ALPS decals on my stuff and they suit
me just fine. I model HO scale and rarely see any model at a distance of less then
two feet, usually much more. I cannot see any dots even when I know that they are
there.
One other thing that may be worth mentioning. I print all my decals twice. the first
pass is all solid white or black and the second is the top colors. The pixels are
not a problem.
In truth, the question is virtually moot as ALPS printers are/will soon be no longer
available except as existing stock. I have read that the manufacturer has declared
that they will no longer be made for the US market.
Train Man
Demetre, Argiro wrote:
This raises 2 questions for me and they are the reason I've never purchased one... First,
Are there any alignment problems when doing multiple passes as you describe? Second, once
they stop making them in the US, does that mean they will also stop supporting them? IOW,
will all the ribbons (or cartrages, whichever the case) still be available??
Jeff
Christian
| This raises 2 questions for me and they are the reason I've never
purchased one... First,
| Are there any alignment problems when doing multiple passes as you
describe?
None. 5 or 6 passes are not unusual. They work like pen plotters in that
they pick up a cart and do all of that color, than get another. The paper
moves in and out of the printer many times. There is a half inch margin on
the sides for the tractor. It is not unusual to open the printer and change
carts during a print job. White is commonly done twice.
|Second, once
| they stop making them in the US, does that mean they will also stop
supporting them?
Been over a year. But I haven't noticed any shortages nor price gouging.
Roland uses the same methods and carts for very pricey printers used in the
sign industry. Might even be OEM ALPs - don't know. In Europe, there is
talk of additional colors for the carts.
HOWEVER, working ALPs are getting scarce. When the word came down that they
would be discontinued they went like hotcakes. In addition to decals they
were notable for dye-sublimation printing which made them hot with
photographers; the "ink" doesn't fade with makes them desirable for artists
and the ink is opaque which makes them of great interest to the T-Shirt
industry. And, model railroaders aren't the only model builders who use
decals! The "best," the MD5000, has a tendency to self destruct.
CTucker
NY
Train Man
Christian wrote:
Hmmm, I wonder if the folks paying $900 plus on ebay for the 5000 realize that?
Personally, I don't have enough use to justify the cost. I think paying a few
bucks a sheet to have artwork transfered to film would be much more cost
effective... Don't some decal companies DO custom work??
BTW, This is one of the things I like about this group.. There are enough cynics
here to tell the truth about an otherwise widely accepted product. ie "The
"best," the MD5000, has a tendency to self destruct."....
Thanks for saving me some cash...
Jeff
Trainman
post here) have Alps units, and I have received decals from both that were
as good as any, better than most, commercial decal sets.
Don
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
moderator: WisMode...@yahoogroups.com
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Dan L. Merkel <brt...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:3A96CE...@bright.net...
Michael McIntyre
>decals. The DPI for an ALP is 2400. Match that!
The difference is in the "ink." There's no outward difference, but
they're much more delicate than their silk-screened counterparts.
I've got models with tractional decals that have been on for years
with no top coat and are fine. Touch ALPS decals after they've been
melted onto the model and the "ink" comes right off. You've GOT to
top coat these before you handle them at all, even before weathering.
You're supposed to do that anyway, but I never used to bother, since I
don't have a safe place to spray Dullcote and the like. With these
there's no choice.
---
D. Michael McIntyre | mmci...@swva.net | USDA zone 6a in sw VA
Vote for America's National Tree: http://arborday.org
Rusty Keeney
<snip>
>> Been over a year. But I haven't noticed any shortages nor price gouging.
>> Roland uses the same methods and carts for very pricey printers used in the
>> sign industry. Might even be OEM ALPs - don't know. In Europe, there is
>> talk of additional colors for the carts.
The current colors are CMYK, plus white and the metallics and foils.
The new line of carts, supposedly for the Oki DP-7000 (Europe only)
will add RGB. The carts are the same mechanically
>> HOWEVER, working ALPs are getting scarce. When the word came down that they
>> would be discontinued they went like hotcakes. In addition to decals they
>> were notable for dye-sublimation printing which made them hot with
>> photographers; the "ink" doesn't fade with makes them desirable for artists
>> and the ink is opaque which makes them of great interest to the T-Shirt
>> industry. And, model railroaders aren't the only model builders who use
>> decals! The "best," the MD5000, has a tendency to self destruct.
A serious drawback, although it seems to be alleviated somewhat by
letting the printer cool after printing 10 sheets.
>> CTucker
>> NY
>
>Hmmm, I wonder if the folks paying $900 plus on ebay for the 5000 realize that?
>Personally, I don't have enough use to justify the cost. I think paying a few
>bucks a sheet to have artwork transfered to film would be much more cost
>effective... Don't some decal companies DO custom work??
Yes, and many use the Alps printers.
>BTW, This is one of the things I like about this group.. There are enough cynics
>here to tell the truth about an otherwise widely accepted product. ie "The
>"best," the MD5000, has a tendency to self destruct."....
The MD-1000 will give nearly identical results and seems to be much
more durable.
Bilfrazier
printing decals and using it as my regular printer for most printing. If I need
to print something like a 100 page manual I will switch to another printer only
because of the ink cost. I've got over 70 assorted new ink cartridges (picked
them up when they were cheaper) and expect to be able to use them up before
worrying about my ALPS failing on me. I'm more worried about the cost of
additional cartridges than printer failure.
ALPS will still repair (replace with a rebuild) their printers for a price less
than the old list of a new one.
Bill Frazier
>Subject: Re: ALPS printer (was decal paper)
>From: cros...@mindspring.com (Rusty Keeney)
>Date: 2/23/01 11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3a973c2c....@news.mindspring.com>
Train Man
Bilfrazier wrote:
> I have been using my ALPS MD-1000 for 2 1/2 years now with no problems,
> printing decals and using it as my regular printer for most printing. If I need
> to print something like a 100 page manual I will switch to another printer only
> because of the ink cost. I've got over 70 assorted new ink cartridges (picked
> them up when they were cheaper) and expect to be able to use them up before
> worrying about my ALPS failing on me. I'm more worried about the cost of
> additional cartridges than printer failure.
> ALPS will still repair (replace with a rebuild) their printers for a price less
> than the old list of a new one.
>
> Bill Frazier
>
> >Subject: Re: ALPS printer (was decal paper)
> >From: cros...@mindspring.com (Rusty Keeney)
> >Date: 2/23/01 11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <3a973c2c....@news.mindspring.com>
> >
> >On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:55:15 GMT, Train Man <jsi...@home.com> wrote:
> more snip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
For 99% of my purposes, my epson inkjet works just fine. The other 1% would be
decals if it worked. If I'm printing a lot, I may go through a package of 500
sheets per year and maybe a set of cartriges.. I know someone else started this
thread and for me it has come full circle as I've been reminded of a few other
options to the alps investment...
Jeff
Jim Bernier
Bilfrazier wrote:
> Bill,
The rebuild cost that Alps charges is almost $200 per exchange....
BondoBill1
>"best," the MD5000, has a tendency to self destruct."....
>
Not exactly, what happens is that the printer was never designed for production
work, so the heads fail due to heavy use. If you follow some basic tips, the
head can last a fow a vry long time. Don't proint more than 10 8x11.5 or 8.5 x
14 sheets at one time. Shut down after 10 sheets for about 20 min or more. Make
sure that you set the paper thickness correctly. For example, even though there
are velum papers out there that seem to feel like heavy bond paper, tey are
not, and leaving the head set for normal paper causes hte head to wear and
scratch. Decal paper should be set to thick cardboard.
Alsp has stood by their warranty for me since day one. Over the past 3 years
they have replaced my machine over 7 times. Problem with my machines is that we
were using them way too much. Thousands and thousands of 8.5x11 sheets. Way
more than most would expect. That also was the other issue with ALPS, they
never anticipated the many uses the were discovered here in the states for
their machine. Not only did the model railroad community embrace it, many other
modeling communities did, as well as silkscreen printers, as they are the best
printers for color seps, no keystone'ing of seperations, perfect registration
and excellent opacity. Alps will continue to support the printers for 4 plus
more years and have promised a supply of cartridges for another 7 years.
Careful as to buying them on E-bay though, there are people sellling broken
machines at a premium, and then when you get the machine you discover that you
will need to cough up another $255 for the exchange with Alps for a good
machine.
Jon Miller
at onestop.com?? but they seem to not sell the carts anymore.
Christian
"Jon Miller" <at...@inow.com> wrote in message
news:t9ft9g6...@corp.supernews.com...
| Where is the current best prices on carts (for a MD1000)? I used to
buy
| at onestop.com?? but they seem to not sell the carts anymore.
www.inkfarm.com - black for $6.88
www.buy.com - black for $4.99
www.tangopapadecals.com - black for $6.00 (best decal paper and best prices
on decal paper)
I did not look at shipping charges.
CTucker
NY
Gary M. Collins
Train Man wrote:
>
> This raises 2 questions for me and they are the reason I've never purchased one... First,
> Are there any alignment problems when doing multiple passes as you describe? Second, once
> they stop making them in the US, does that mean they will also stop supporting them? IOW,
> will all the ribbons (or cartrages, whichever the case) still be available??
>
> Jeff
Jeff, I use an ALPS MD-1000 printer in my custom decal business. The manufacturer has indeed
stopped making the MD-series printers. From what I understand and have heard, the print
engines will be sold to other manufacturers for use in their printers. ALPS has repeatedly
assured owners of their printers that they will continue to support them with supplies, and
in fact I have had no problems finding the ribbons I need.
The alignment (also known as registration) on these printers is remarkable. You might check
out Matt Lappin's site (you'll find a link to it on my own site, below) for an example. His
herald is a white silhouette of the states of Indiana and Ohio, with thin black lines
outlining the borders. Easy to do on the ALPS. It is the only printer of which I am aware,
BTW, which prints not only white, but metallic gold (ask Mike McIntyre about that), metallic
silver, and metallics of cyan, magenta, and yellow.
The print quality at normal print resoilution, when doing shades of colors, is less than
good. Lots of dots, and really small text (e.g.: dimensional data on freight cars) can be
illegible. This can improve substantially when printing in "photo-realistic" mode, and is
marginally passable. The best clarity is in printing primary colors, which can be done with
multiple passes, using different colors, as solid prints. I can do black, white, yellow,
red, blue and green as solid, crisp prints, which have legible text down to (HO) scale 1"
tall. Better get out the microscope if you want to read it, though. :-)
I hope soon to have a picture of an Athearn stock car which I painted and decalled for my own
road, the Flint Hills Northern, posted on the site. Looks sharp, if I do say so myself. :-)
I wouldn't be in the decal business if it weren't for the ALPS printer.
In addition to my GMCRail site, you might want to check out my train site at:
http://www.sound.net/~gcollins/gtrains.html
There are some interesting pics there, some links, and a freebie scale speed calculator prog.
--
Gary M. Collins
=======================================================
GMCRail: http://www.sound.net/~gcollins/GMCRail1.html
"Unique Decal Solutions for the
Discriminating Model Railroader"
=======================================================
gcol...@sound.net
Edward Oates
when you apply the decal, work FAST and do NOT USE SOLVASET. I've used
Microscale MicroSet to soften the decal a bit. Solvaset dissolves the
after-spray and then everything, including the ink dissolves, too.
Even water eventually soaks through and gets to the ink which is water
soluble. I had the same results with an Epson 740i and an HP 2000C.
Bascially, inkjet inks dissolve in water. The after-spray is supposed to
prevent that, but water soaks in from underneath the glue layer and will
blur the image. If you overspray more than once, the decal gets too thick.
Also, the decal is shiny, so you must paint over it with dull coat (water
based, please) when everything is dry.
Overall, I'm not very satisfied with the results compared to commercial
decals: they are too thick, too shiny, and too hard to keep from blurring
during the application process. Softeners like Solvaset destroy them so
getting them to nestle down around small details is difficult.
Ed Oates
in article 20010223083828...@ng-fn1.aol.com, JBortle at
jbo...@aol.com wrote on 2/23/01 5:38 AM:
Trainman
generally works pretty well.
Don
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Edward Oates <eoa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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