And the Winner Is..... [Andy's Acrylic Paint Test]
Andy Harman
As most of you know, I'm nearing completion of my Erie Lackawanna
SDP45, and as you also know, I'm not looking forward to the task of
applying a 4-color paint job which includes yellow, using newfangled
acrylics.
Many different EL colors have been offered over the years:
* Old, original, non-plastic-compatible Floquil
* Accu+Paint
* Badger Accuflex
* Testors Accuflex
* Badger Modelflex
* Floquil Pollyscale
Of all those listed, I've always felt the old original Floquil was the
most accurate, but that is based on a lot of heresay, eyeballs, and
memories as much as anything else. It's no longer available, as the
colors were dropped from the Floquil line by the time they went to
their new formula plastic-compatible paint. I have some bottles of
the old stuff, but it's at least 15 years old (unopened) and I'm not
real thrilled with the idea of trying to lay it on bare plastic,
primer or not. Barrier is out of the question - I'd sooner spray it
over Vaseline.
So that leaves:
Accu+Paint - not available around here, but I have managed to round up
two of the three colors. The finicky nature of this paint and it's
reaction to humidity or even a tiny drop of moisture does not bode
well for it's use on a paint job requiring much masking, and the fact
that I've never used it before is even more of a reason to leave it
alone this time. It's supposed to be accurate color-wise, but this
argument has gone both ways.
Accuflex - I'd sooner throw it on the floor and stomp on it than
subject it to this mixture of gravel and recycled rubber cement.
That leaves Badger Modelflex and Floquil Pollyscale. I have samples
of all three colors from both lines (EL yellow,maroon, and gray).
First I tried out a little "test swatch" of flat styrene, on which I
painted the three colors with a brush in roughly EL configuration.
The Pollyscale colors looked very, very close to those used by Kato on
their EL SD45. Not to say they are absolutely correct, but they look
pretty good to me with no other point of reference. Then I made the
test swatch with the Modelflex. The yellow is definately more
intense, the maroon a touch more red, the gray perhaps a smidge
lighter. It was a close match to the Atlas U33C in EL. Of the two, I
prefered the more subdued colors of the Pollyscale.
So, I picked out a shell from my shell bin - one I have gobs and gobs
of and could spare one...an Athearn GP38-2. Ok, so EL never had
GP38-2's, but they could have. And a guinea pig can be a freelance
can't it? One thing for sure, no way would the first thing to feel
the wrath of acrylic paints be my hard-earned SDP45 shell.
First up I loaded Pollyscale EL gray in the airbrush - in the James
Bond tradition, shaken - and stirred. Thinned it a little with PollyS
airbrush thinner (alcohol). Loaded up the old VL, pulled the trigger
and... ker-PLAT! Total crap. Sputter sputter... it was shooting
paint blobs every which way, out of control. Quick examination of the
paint revealed the trouble... tiny little grains of paint that never
dissolved, like wet sand in water. Into the trash with this bottle of
Pottyscale.... funny, my prior experiences with airbrushing the
stuff have not been bad.
Feeling a bit bold (after all, it was just an unmodified $4 GP38-2
shell) I cleaned the airbrush and did something I've been told you can
do... I stuck the bottle of Badger Modelflex EL gray right onto the
airbrush stem/cap. Fit perfectly. Mostly stirred, not shaken.
The stuff sprayed very, very well with no thinning whatsoever. It
went on with a nice semi-gloss, not custom-show-car-shine but a
perfect, smooth surface for decaling or masking. I was impressed, to
say the least.
After letting the gray coat dry two hours, I masked off the shell to
spray the yellow - on EL hood units, this is the hood ends and side
sills only. I've heard that MF yellow doesn't cover very well, but
spraying over the fairly light gray I thought I'd give it a try. It
actually covered better than I expected, almost as well as old
Floquil. Not super-duper, but c'mon, its YELLOW for crying out loud.
I guess it took a good 5 or 6 passes to get all the areas nicely
covered to where it didn't have a "transparent" look any more.
Then I went to remove the tape. I hadn't done a super-pro job of
masking for this test shot, so I didn't expect perfect edges or
anything... but as I poked at the tape to get it loose (the yellow was
touch-dry in about 10 minutes) I noticed that my fingernail went right
through the gray paint revealing the black plastic underneath. Oh
well... this acrylic stuff is very soft the first 24 hours or so...
after that, a blowtorch won't get it off.
I'm hoping that I can live with the Badger colors, which do seem a bit
bright to me - I can't tone it down too much with weathering, because
EL was famous for washing their locomotives after almost every run. A
bit of wear and tear on top, and some dirt on the trucks and pilots is
ok, but I can't do an "SP tunnel job" on the hood to hide any problems
<g>. And I'm hoping that if I wait, like 48 hours between colors,
that I will be able to safely mask with no danger of gouging or
peeling the base coat.
I may try to pick up another bottle of Pollyscale or three, and give
it another chance. This was a new bottle, opened only once for the
little test swatch (never thinned) and I'm surprised it was bad right
from the start. At least the fact that it was bad was noticable right
away.
So far though, for ease of handling the Badger stuff wins this round.
It is a tad "thick" looking though. I don't know from whenceforth
comes the propaganda that acrylic paint doesn't hide detail. No doubt
whatsoever, a working coat (especially on the yellow) is thicker than
Scalecoat II - which would be my absolute paint of choice if they made
the colors. Yes, I know the EL colors are available in regular
Scalecoat, but they (like most regular SC colors) look weird to me,
and I will not shoot the stuff on plastic under any conditions. I
found out that the EL colors can be obtained direct from the
manufacturer in the same formula as Scalecoat II, but in 1-quart cans.
Any, um, 20 people out there wanna split some paint up with me? <g>
I'm still only about 50% certain about this acrylic business. But the
new Badger stuff does seem pretty viable.
Andy (not much of a painter, any way you call it)
Visit the Prototype Modelers Group Web Page at http://w3.one.net/~aharman/index.html
Sorry I must resort to anti-spam practice, reply to aharman at one (spelled out) dot net
C.L.Zeni
Andy Harman wrote:
>
> As most of you know, I'm nearing completion of my Erie Lackawanna
> SDP45, and as you also know, I'm not looking forward to the task of
> applying a 4-color paint job which includes yellow, using newfangled
> acrylics.
>
> Many different EL colors have been offered over the years:
>
> * Old, original, non-plastic-compatible Floquil
> * Accu+Paint
> * Badger Accuflex
> * Testors Accuflex
> * Badger Modelflex
> * Floquil Pollyscale
>
> Of all those listed, I've always felt the old original Floquil was the
> most accurate, but that is based on a lot of heresay, eyeballs, and
> memories as much as anything else. It's no longer available, as the
> colors were dropped from the Floquil line by the time they went to
> their new formula plastic-compatible paint. I have some bottles of
> the old stuff, but it's at least 15 years old (unopened) and I'm not
> real thrilled with the idea of trying to lay it on bare plastic,
> primer or not. Barrier is out of the question - I'd sooner spray it
> over Vaseline.
I've never understood people using Barrier anyway. I've ALWAYS shot
straight Scalecoat or Floquil onto plastic with no problems. None.
> So that leaves:
>
> Accu+Paint - not available around here, but I have managed to round up
> two of the three colors. The finicky nature of this paint and it's
> reaction to humidity or even a tiny drop of moisture does not bode
> well for it's use on a paint job requiring much masking, and the fact
> that I've never used it before is even more of a reason to leave it
> alone this time. It's supposed to be accurate color-wise, but this
> argument has gone both ways.
Yep, the stuff's too damn fussy. And too hard to find indeed.
> Accuflex - I'd sooner throw it on the floor and stomp on it than
> subject it to this mixture of gravel and recycled rubber cement.
I disagree - I liked the stuff and could get very nice results with it.
If you try to spray it (or ANY acrylic for that matter) using the same
methods as used with solvent paints, it's gonna go bogus on you. No
question. BUT if you learn to work with it, it's great stuff.
snip on color treatise
> So, I picked out a shell from my shell bin - one I have gobs and gobs
> of and could spare one...an Athearn GP38-2. Ok, so EL never had
> GP38-2's, but they could have. And a guinea pig can be a freelance
> can't it? One thing for sure, no way would the first thing to feel
> the wrath of acrylic paints be my hard-earned SDP45 shell.
Fair enough and wise enough, too. I did the same thing with my first
load of Accuflex - an Athearn box car.
> First up I loaded Pollyscale EL gray in the airbrush - in the James
> Bond tradition, shaken - and stirred. Thinned it a little with PollyS
> airbrush thinner (alcohol). Loaded up the old VL, pulled the trigger
> and... ker-PLAT! Total crap. Sputter sputter... it was shooting
> paint blobs every which way, out of control. Quick examination of the
> paint revealed the trouble... tiny little grains of paint that never
> dissolved, like wet sand in water. Into the trash with this bottle of
> Pottyscale.... funny, my prior experiences with airbrushing the
> stuff have not been bad.
Question: What tip is in the VL? If it's a No. 1 it's going to drive
you nuts clogging and lumping and splatting. I use a No. 3 in mine and
it's still a bit too small as I find myself wiping a clump of paint from
the needle tip if I'm spraying at low flowrates. The No. 1 tip was even
worse. Also, do not shake the paint - stir it only. Keeps the air and
the air's moisture from going as much into the paint. Or so they say -
I shake the hell out of mine...
> Feeling a bit bold (after all, it was just an unmodified $4 GP38-2
> shell) I cleaned the airbrush and did something I've been told you can
> do... I stuck the bottle of Badger Modelflex EL gray right onto the
> airbrush stem/cap. Fit perfectly. Mostly stirred, not shaken.
Nice that they fit the Paasche cap, isn't it?
> The stuff sprayed very, very well with no thinning whatsoever. It
> went on with a nice semi-gloss, not custom-show-car-shine but a
> perfect, smooth surface for decaling or masking. I was impressed, to
> say the least.
Great feature is that ready-to-decal surface.
> After letting the gray coat dry two hours, I masked off the shell to
> spray the yellow - on EL hood units, this is the hood ends and side
> sills only. I've heard that MF yellow doesn't cover very well, but
> spraying over the fairly light gray I thought I'd give it a try. It
> actually covered better than I expected, almost as well as old
> Floquil. Not super-duper, but c'mon, its YELLOW for crying out loud.
> I guess it took a good 5 or 6 passes to get all the areas nicely
> covered to where it didn't have a "transparent" look any more.
Acrylic yellows and oranges don't cover worth squat. It takes a LOT of
thin coats to get it to happen even over primer gray. And forget about
putting it over black...
> Then I went to remove the tape. I hadn't done a super-pro job of
> masking for this test shot, so I didn't expect perfect edges or
> anything... but as I poked at the tape to get it loose (the yellow was
> touch-dry in about 10 minutes) I noticed that my fingernail went right
> through the gray paint revealing the black plastic underneath. Oh
> well... this acrylic stuff is very soft the first 24 hours or so...
> after that, a blowtorch won't get it off.
Yes, when "fresh" it's soft paint. Also, I've found that Microsol
softens it up a bit, too. And with these paints surface prep is
hypercritical.
> I'm hoping that I can live with the Badger colors, which do seem a bit
> bright to me - I can't tone it down too much with weathering, because
> EL was famous for washing their locomotives after almost every run. A
> bit of wear and tear on top, and some dirt on the trucks and pilots is
> ok, but I can't do an "SP tunnel job" on the hood to hide any problems
> <g>. And I'm hoping that if I wait, like 48 hours between colors,
> that I will be able to safely mask with no danger of gouging or
> peeling the base coat.
Or don't wait - hit it with a hairdryer between coats. The low heat
helps cure the paint. Of course you may want to avoid this step if
you're squeamish about applying heat to your details...
> I may try to pick up another bottle of Pollyscale or three, and give
> it another chance. This was a new bottle, opened only once for the
> little test swatch (never thinned) and I'm surprised it was bad right
> from the start. At least the fact that it was bad was noticable right
> away.
I think you got a bad bottle. Bad bottles will suffice well for
touch-up service, but won't spray for beans. And yes, there is a higher
defect rate in acrylics than in solvent paints.
> So far though, for ease of handling the Badger stuff wins this round.
> It is a tad "thick" looking though. I don't know from whenceforth
> comes the propaganda that acrylic paint doesn't hide detail. No doubt
> whatsoever, a working coat (especially on the yellow) is thicker than
> Scalecoat II - which would be my absolute paint of choice if they made
> the colors. Yes, I know the EL colors are available in regular
> Scalecoat, but they (like most regular SC colors) look weird to me,
> and I will not shoot the stuff on plastic under any conditions. I
> found out that the EL colors can be obtained direct from the
> manufacturer in the same formula as Scalecoat II, but in 1-quart cans.
> Any, um, 20 people out there wanna split some paint up with me? <g>
>
> I'm still only about 50% certain about this acrylic business. But the
> new Badger stuff does seem pretty viable.
As I said above, one must learn a new set of skills for success at
spraying acrylics, just as one needed to learn new skills to assemble
plastic kits when used to working with wood kits. I was a longtime
Scalecoat and Floquil user but have successfully made the conversion. I
ain't going back, except to put Scalecoat on brass.
C. Zeni - airbrush fume inhaler for over 15 years.
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
* What in the wide wide world of sports is a goin' on here? *
Paul Tackowiak
It's a pity Tamiya doesn't make their paint in RR colors. The stuff has
to be the best paint going, it's fantastic.
Paul Tackowiak
David Lehlbach
Andy Harman wrote:
> Andy (looking even more like I'll be buying quart cans of EL Scalecoat
> II colors)
Couldn't agree more Andy - what is thinner and more glossy than
Scalecoat paint??? Nothing! And glossiness increases dramatically when
it is baked!!! But what will we do when the stuff is no longer
available due to air quality reasons? Better stock up now.
David Lehlbach (remove nospam)
Michael Bilhartz
Andy Harman wrote in message <344b8c52....@news.one.net>...
>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:17:53 -0400, "C.L.Zeni" <clz...@elsewhere.com>
>wrote:
>
> . . .
>>Yes, when "fresh" it's soft paint. Also, I've found that Microsol
>>softens it up a bit, too.
>
>Oh that's just frigging wonderful. Microsol eats it. What the hell
>good is it then? Maybe I can use Microsol to strip the damn thing so
>I can paint it with real paint...
>
> . . .
Not to say it does or doesn't, but since I try to keep my fingers off the
model until the Microsol dries I have never encountered that effect.
Personally, I like Modelflex the best of what I have tried, except that it's
hard to find and they don't have an ATSF Mineral Brown. ( If anyone has a
substitute formula using Modelflex, please post it ).
Regards,
-Mike Bilhartz
Dave Bott
I'll snip Andy's whole message to save bandwidth and just say the following:
After a post about 6 months ago regarding the availability of Model Flex,
a Badger rep. asked me if I wanted to try their product. I got three
bottles of ModelFlex in the mail in less than two weeks, for nothing (but
a post). And until now, I failed to mention this kind gesture or my
results.
The stuff worked well, undiluted (and I've always diluted acrylics to
prevent clogging before). I don't have any spare shells or stuff, so I
took out my Atlas RS-3 that had been cleaned as much as I could (the
factory N&W paint job resisted all my efforts -- Polly ELO first, then
alcohol -- except the use of sandpaper. I had only used sandpaper to
smooth filler putty, so I had a patchy looking shell of blue and gray.
I use an AZTEK 3000S with a Sears compressor set at 35 lbs. I have Polly
S thinner and 70% isopropyl for cleanup and thinning, but decided to try
the Model Flex straight out of the bottle since it appeared much thinner
(milk consistency) than any other acrylic I've used.
I thought the Southern Sylvan Green came out a little intense in color and
was glossier than expected on practice sprays over plain white styrene
test pieces (much like Andy's feelings about the EL colors). The shell
painting (over dark blue with gray patches) came out looking pretty good
except that the gray patches were obviously lighter. I'm going to try a
second coat to see if it covers. If not, I'm going to strip the green,
apply a primer gray, and then try again. Fortunately, Model Flex doesn't
seem to be too thick for hiding detail-it showed up a scar in the plastic
from test fitting a round grab iron that I hoped it would hide :-( So I
think a second coat or a primer coat will not be a problem.
I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I thank Badger for giving me
the chance to test their product; sorry it's taken so long to test it
though on a car or loco though. I have used the Rail Brown they sent to
weather my track and it looks magnificent!
The flat black worked well in a diluted (Polly S thinner) weathering wash
for some boxcars too.
Hope this contributes to the thread, though I have a LOT less practice or
experience with non-acrylics than Andy or for that matter, most people.
DAve
--
Dave Bott prefers to be contacted at david....@dartmouth.edu
President and majority stockholder, Clyde Creek Railway, Inc. (a 1/87 scale enterprise)
Empire Deluxe PBEM Keeper of the List
Fan of the Baltimore Orioles and the Virginia Tech Hokies
Don Mitchell
Andy Harman said...
>You're talking me out of it, fast. Perfection isn't my style. and not
>too many areas in my house will pass for the Bell Labs "Clean Room". I
>don't understand why the trend is for good things to evolve into bad
>things, and for systems that work to be replaced by systems that
>require all kinds of high-maintenance, hypercritical anal details to
>be done just right or you're basically screwed.
_______________
Best acrylic paint I've encountered so far is Pactra. Goes on nicely,
whether straight from the bottle with relatively high pressure, or
thinned with water at lower pressure. Pactra apparently doesn't cater
to model railroaders, as they don't have rr colors. That means you have
track it down in general or airplane hobby shops.
It's relatively easy to mix whatever colors by getting just 6 -- Red,
yellow, blue, black, white, & brown. A color mixing wheel from an art
shop will get you near the desired mixing proportions fairly quickly.
It takes a little time to develop a particular color formula, but it
only has to be done once -- and there are only those 6 colors that have
to be stocked. Less cost, and less change of any congealing.
Tip -- Pactra Earth Brown is one of the neatest weathering colors you
could come across, especially for trucks, wheels, and the like.
Don Mitchell
C.L.Zeni
> >As I said above, one must learn a new set of skills for success at
> >spraying acrylics, just as one needed to learn new skills to assemble
> >plastic kits when used to working with wood kits. I was a longtime
> >Scalecoat and Floquil user but have successfully made the conversion. I
> >ain't going back, except to put Scalecoat on brass.
>
> are. All I've heard is that everything has to be perfect - the
> surface, the thinning, and heaven forbid, the paint should you be
> fortunate enough to get a good bottle. Perfection doesn't hurt in any
> painting situation, but I've found that in terms of interpreting
> results, its amazing what passes for "good results". Everyone that
> was raving about Accuflex when it first came out was showing me paint
> jobs that I'd throw in the dunker without a second thought.
Come come, let's not be a curmudgeon about it. Different materials are
going to require different techniques. You're not going to use your
hood-building methods exactly the same on styrene and on brass, are
you? Yes, I too was dragged kicking and screaming to acrylics but have
adapted well, kept what little sanity I had, and have been able to get
equally good results. It just takes time and patience to learn.
OK, here's what I've learned to do different from what I used to do:
1) Scrub the hell out of the model with warm soapy water and dishwashing
detergent. Rinse thoroughly and allow to dry overnight. Then, before I
handle the model again I wash my hands well. The solvent paints did not
require such Dr. Kildaire-like cleanliness; these seem to.
2) I thin Pottyscale with isopropyl alcohol, not water. Drys faster and
wets better.
3) I spray at 35 psi, whereas I used to use around 18 psi.
4) I now prime for yellows and reds - didn't used to do that.
5) For said light colors, I lay on a lot of light coats. I've given up
on getting it these on in one sitting, so I always plan to do a second
set of coats.
6) I use the hairdryer on mine to the point where the model surface is
barely warm to the touch. Yes, this includes Cannon cabs and hi noses
and haven't cooked one yet. But let me tell you about the swaybacked
Atlas GP40 that spent too much time in the microwave...
7) I clean the bejeezus out of the airbrush to the point of obsession.
Any leftover crud in the brush will wreak havoc next time around. I
strip out the tip and the needle afte running lacquer thinner through it
repeatedly.
8) I commented on the paint being softened by Microsol. I first
discovered this with Tamiya paints about 13 years ago, BTW. Frankly
I've never painted with such a fine paint as the Tamiya or Gunze Sanyo
acrylics - they go on so smooth and evenly. They just don't make useful
colors for me. But my old decaling method involved using an Xacto knife
to fine-tune the decal position. I simply changed to a pair of
blunt-nose tweezers to slide it around. No big deal.
One of the things people were hooting about with this paint is that it
was a timesaver. Hooey. I spend more time prepping and cleaning up now
than I ever did. But I do like the results I get with the acrylics.
IMHO it's a more forgiving product in a number of ways, ie, if one gets
blow-under on the masking it can be touched in with a No. 3 paintbrush
and when dry is nearly impossible to see, even with my nearsightedness.
I have on occasion managed to lay a huge loogie of paint on a model that
would left a thick area over all the details, but have found with
acrylics that they tend to self level somewhat which minimized the
offensiveness of said botch-up. And I've found its shelf life to be at
least as predictable as Scalecoat I - I've had fits for years with some
bottles of that going solid on me after one use and others lasting
years.
You've motivated me to try some more involved kitbashing and
modification (ie replacing the brakewheel on an SD-45 with a door). I
hope I can do the same for you with painting.
S Sillato
Paul Tackowiak (paul_ta...@ccmail.bms.com) wrote:
: It's a pity Tamiya doesn't make their paint in RR colors. The stuff has
: to be the best paint going, it's fantastic.
But, they do make RR colors. And I've had very good results with them.
Oh yeah, I do all my NYC engines with Tamiya. They make those fine paints
in Black, white and gray, all the colors I need for my RS-3's, 11's and
FA's.<vbg>
--
Steve Sillato NYC, LV, GBW & ALCo fan
Forty is the old age of youth, fifty the youth of old age.
Frank & Susan Williamson
Andy,
while I myself don't do any airbrushing (yet, but plan on starting soon), I
can vouch for Craig and his success with PollyScale acrylics. I just
received an Atlas RS-1 he custom painted for me in Southern tuxedo
black/white with PollyScale, and it looks *TREMENDOUS*!!! Nice solid
coloring without any loss of detail. Atlas wishes it could do a paint job
this good.
From what I've heard on the 'net and talking to some of the serious model
painters around here, acrylics *do* work, but differently than oil based
paints. Just have to relearn some old tricks, which doesn't apply in my
case, I get to start with acrylics from the start.
Frank
Hudson Leighton
In article <62h59u$1fcg$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
AAB...@prodigy.com (Jay Barnaby) wrote:
> Oh, paints..........
>
> I have used Floquil, Accu-Flex, Tamiya, Polly-Scale, and played with
> Model-Flex.
>
snip
>
> If anyone has a tip about the tip clogging up let me know.
>
> Just my seven cents...
>
>
> Jay
In the real world (grin), when ever I spray a piece of equipment, one
thing I always do after mixing/stiring the paint is to strain it with
a paint filter, I always find a few goobers, even in Ditzler paints or
Sherman/Williams in doesn't mater.
Also I always use a Viscosity cup to check the thinkness of the paint,
a V Cup is not high tech, the one I use is a stainless steel cup the
size of a egg with a hole in the bottom and a wire handle, dip the cup into
the mixed paint, hold it over the paint container and count 1 Mississippi,
2 Mississippi, etc. If you get the right number of Mississipi's start
painting, otherwise add thiner or paint as needed.
Jay Barnaby
Oh, paints..........
I have used Floquil, Accu-Flex, Tamiya, Polly-Scale, and played with
Model-Flex.
I want to stay away from solvent-based paints. Too much effort to clean
up and it takes days and days to get completely dry. After spending so
much time to build something I want it painted!..g Also my wife hated
the smell.
Accuflex - When it came out I thought it was GREAT. I did one loco and a
brass caboose. The caboose is still one of my best paint jobs. This is
helped alot by being one color....g But later I had problems with it
adhereing. Temporary paint dosen't thrill me. Probably just a couple of
bad bottles cause of the two successes I had. Course I could have just
gotten lucky bottles on those.
Modelflex - I had trouble spraying this I think. I don't remember...g
Tamiya - great paint but I don't fancy mixing all of the colors I need.
One prperty I can't decide I like is that while it thins beautifully with
alcohol, the same alcohol will strip it even months later. I do use it
for weathering though. After it dries I overcoat with dullcote. I have
had problems with the weathering colors rub off with handling. If they
would put out rr colors I'd probably use them.
PollyScale - I have used this on one loco, a UP that I didn't plan to
keep. The paint was smooth and decal ready with no problems with coverage
on the yellow. The only problem I had was one that I have also had with
the "flex" brands. The tip of the airbrush clogs up quickly and easily
and continually. I have a Paasche VL. I have tried all of the tips and
ended up using the biggest. This means a lot of paint quickly but this
stuff dries THIN. I thought I had sanded the putty places smooth until I
painted them. This stuff shows EVERY flaw and scratch. So far this is my
paint of choice. As far as color accuracy a freinf of mine who is a
rabid UP fan said that the Armor Yellow and Harbor Mist Gray are right.
The D&RGW colors are off I think but then I haven't found a brand yet
that gets these right. Matching the Microscale decals is fun! (G)
RGS PE MKT
RE: Andy's Acrylic Paint Test
Just thought I'd mention a few things I've found out about ModelFlex. If
painting wood, styrene (either injection molded
or sheet and strip) or acrylic, I prime the model with Floquil Gray Primer.
For best results, thin the Primer about 75% paint - 25% thinner. Give or take
about 5% depending upon your mood.
With wood, this keeps the water, in the water based paint, from raising the
grain --- which water is very good at doing.
On styrene, the primer, being a solvent based paint, etches into the plastic,
hopefully just a bit. If you have experience with succesfully airbrushing
Floquil or Scalecoat on plastic you're home free, if not practice on junker
shells.
On acrylic, the primer also provides a bit of "tooth" for the ModelFlex to
adhere to. You can thin the primer a little bit more when spraying on acrylic
as it is not as easily "crazed" by solvent based paint.
For the past 20+ years, I've been using a Paasche H single action airbrush
with mostly the #1 and #3 tips. I still use this when spraying Floquil.
I acquired a Badger 200 Internal Mix, Single Action airbrush for spraying
ModelFlex. This is recommended because of the "Crown" tip. This tip doesn't
clog as easily as other brushes when using acrylic paints. I've used Accu-Flex
and Accu+Paint, both with satisfactory results, but shooting the ModelFlex
through the Badger brush has had the best results to date. Air pressure is
usually in the 20 pound range, normal for most compressors.
The BIGGEST problem I've had with ModelFlex is how quickly the paint on the
underside of the lid and around the top of the jar will dry while you are
otherwise occupied with your model. This crud will find its way into the paint
jar and consistently clog your airbrush until you're ready to fire the whole
mess against a wall.
Also, someone mentioned in a previous posting, having problems with sediment.
Well ----- just get yourself one of Badger's little slip-on filter screens and
use with the screw-on airbrush bottle cap that fits all those nifty little
jars. It slips onto the siphon tube and filters out all
tip-clogging particles --- no thinning either.
While the colors may be a bit bright, I am aware of the trouble that Badger is
going to in matching colors. The poor guy at DuPont is probably painting test
swatches in his sleep.
And yes, the ModelFlex finish is a ready-to-decal. Also, it is the best
"touch-up" paint I've encountered. Be certain that the brush doesn't have air
bubbles in the bristles when touching up, and you won't be able to see the
former blemish.
One last thing, ModelFlex doesn't "orange peel" or blister when oversprayed
with Floquil. I've used Floquil over ModelFlex for weathering and have found
that Floquil's Clear Flat Finish lays down very nicely over the ModelFlex and
decals. To date, I feel this "system" is the most effective given the future
of solvent based paints and the availability of other paints. Once thoroughly
dried, the aforementioned Floquil Flat over ModelFlex color is also extremely
durable.
The rumor mill has it too, that a particular paint manufacturer is beginning to
coordinate authentic color matches with a large decal manufacturer at the
constant urgings of --- me. Should this be the case we won't, hopefully, be
embroiled in the "Well the paint doesn't match the decals!" debate anymore.
Accu+Paint/Accu-Cal has accomplished this to a certain degree, but
availability where I live is a problem and I can only drive the 1,350 miles
(one way) to my favorite hobby shop in Yarmouth, Maine two or three times a
year.
Other than the above, I really don't have an opinion on any of this. I usually
just dip my brass engines in Sears' Weatherbeater.
Country Blue and Pumpkin looks great on PE 1200's, ATSF 2-10-4's and RGS/DRGW
K's.
Hey Andy, can I get eggs and spam with my spam?
John H.
John Sheridan
David Lehlbach wrote:
>
> Couldn't agree more Andy - what is thinner and more glossy than
> Scalecoat paint??? Nothing! And glossiness increases dramatically when
> it is baked!!! But what will we do when the stuff is no longer
> available due to air quality reasons? Better stock up now.
Actually, Accu-Paint is thinner than either Scalecoat. Unfortunately,
Accu-Paint can be tough to find and is sometime tough to work with in
high humidity environments.
--
John Sheridan @ Microscale Decals
http://www.microscale.com
Please remove *NOSPAM when replying by E-Mail
Mailto:jrshe...@earthlink.net
James R Bernier
I have been painting since 1967(both for myself and on a custom
basis). I started with Floquil, and went to Scalecoat
when it came out as it went on smooth and glossy. Getting used to
Scalecoat took some time. I have been 'in transition' to the 'new'
paints for about 2-3 years now. I have gone through several
manufacturers stuff, and have settled on the Badger Model-Flex. All of
them appear to be very thin, and can be sprayed right from the bottle.
The Model-Flex covers the best, and is the one that is usually
available. The new Floquil stuff goes on OK, but not with the same
overall smoothness. I have found that all of this stuff sprays OK on
several air brushes(Badger 200 internal, 350 external, and a old
Testors(I think) plastic air brush I aquired somewhere along the way.
One thing that I have noticed is that I have been running the air
pressure a bit higher(was using 20-25 lbs with Scalecoat), and now need
to use about 35 lbs to get the paint to 'lay down' with the same 'feel'
as when I was using Scalecoat. I don't know why, but it just seems to
work out better. The ability to paint a color and mask later that night
is great! I have found that decal solvent will 'eat' into this new
paint if I have not let it dry at least overnight. Strange, the masking
does not pull it up, but the decal solvent will get through the tough
'skin' of this paint. Anything I have let 'air dry' at least 24 hours
has not had the decal problem. As far as coverage with something like a
'chrome color' like yellow, I have had the same problems with
Scalecoat. I used to paint a lot of SOO Line white/red units, and I
ALWAYS painted the entire unit with MOW gray first, as the various
'detail' parts would show through the white or red paint. Something
like CNW yellow is another one that needed a good 'base' under it- just
common sense.
I am now almost 100% on the new stuff and will not go back unless a
color is just not available. I now model in 'N' and I feel that the new
stuff covers as good and in a thin enough coat even for 'N'! By the
way, I only paint for myself now. I got tired of folks dropping off
'another load' of stuff all the time and then calling me a week later
complaining that I was not getting around to their models first! I got
to the point in the early 80's that I was losing interest in the hobby
because I could never work on my own models. Model Railroading as a
business sure takes the fun out of the hobby!
Jim Bernier
Peter Wisniewski
It is thin, doesn't attack plastic and it forms a very durable film on
the model. It seems to be more durable than Scalecoat or Floquil.
and, ti also dries to a very smooth semi-gloss finish.
Peter.
Andy Harman
>way, I only paint for myself now. I got tired of folks dropping off
>'another load' of stuff all the time and then calling me a week later
>complaining that I was not getting around to their models first! I got
>to the point in the early 80's that I was losing interest in the hobby
>because I could never work on my own models. Model Railroading as a
>business sure takes the fun out of the hobby!
This is true. I admire those who can do custom paint work for money
and not get tired of it, but most of the good ones have a 1-2 year
backlog of work. Any more it's a cause for celebration when I flip
the switch to charge the tank on my compressor, because it means I've
finished something to the point that it's ready to paint.
Andy
Charles F Seyferlich
James R Bernier wrote:
>
> clip< As far as coverage with something like a
> 'chrome color' like yellow, I have had the same problems with
> Scalecoat. I used to paint a lot of SOO Line white/red units, and I
> ALWAYS painted the entire unit with MOW gray first, as the various
> 'detail' parts would show through the white or red paint. Something
> like CNW yellow is another one that needed a good 'base' under it- just
> common sense.
>
> I am now almost 100% on the new stuff and will not go back unless a
> color is just not available. I now model in 'N' and I feel that the new
> stuff covers as good and in a thin enough coat even for 'N'! By the
> 'another load' of stuff all the time and then calling me a week later
> complaining that I was not getting around to their models first! I got
> to the point in the early 80's that I was losing interest in the hobby
> because I could never work on my own models. Model Railroading as a
> business sure takes the fun out of the hobby!
>
Working for a railroad takes the fun out of the hobby also.
Now that I don't work for a RR anymore I am inching back into the hobby
and want to do some painting again.
I thought I would try one of the "new" paints instead of Floquil and
have pretty much settled on Model-Flex. Since I plan to do some C&NW I
am interested in knowing what to use as a base. I assume a grey, but
Floquil? Model-Flex? Or? Does Dullcoat work on Modelflex?
Joel Stensberg
Andy Harman wrote:
> First up I loaded Pollyscale EL gray in the airbrush - in the James
> Bond tradition, shaken - and stirred. Thinned it a little with PollyS
> airbrush thinner (alcohol). Loaded up the old VL, pulled the trigger
> and... ker-PLAT! Total crap. Sputter sputter... it was shooting
> paint blobs every which way, out of control. Quick examination of the
> paint revealed the trouble... tiny little grains of paint that never
> dissolved, like wet sand in water. Into the trash with this bottle of
> Pottyscale.... funny, my prior experiences with airbrushing the
> stuff have not been bad.
Next time don't thin it and use a #5 tip, work with fast and light coats
(it's still skunks urine for paint compared to the old Floquil or
Scalecoat), so far I like the Polly S the best.
Yes, I know the EL colors are available in regular
> Scalecoat, but they (like most regular SC colors) look weird to me,
> and I will not shoot the stuff on plastic under any conditions.
I have never had any problems with either Floquil or Scalecoat if you
properly prime it or layed it on too thick. I just put a real light
coat of refer gray (any maker) for the primer, let it dry and paint
away.
> I'm still only about 50% certain about this acrylic business.
But the
> new Badger stuff does seem pretty viable.
I'm not even 50% but there ain't a lot we can do about it.....
Joel
Reg Neale
"Brandon Kulik" (kul...@mint.net) writes:
> Andy Harman <aharman...@one.net> wrote in article
SNIP
>>
>> Accu+Paint - not available around here,
>
...>> two of the three colors. The finicky nature of this paint and it's
>> reaction to humidity or even a tiny drop of moisture does not bode
>> well for it's use on a paint job requiring much masking, and the fact
>> that I've never used it before is even more of a reason to leave it
>> alone this time.
>
> Don't be too scared of this paint. It is very syrupy out of the jar, but
> thins nicely. I find that MEK-based laquer thinners work well with it and
> make it at least as forgiving of humidity as regular-line Floquil. I like
> it thinned to just when it forms small watery "quick-drip" droplets at the
> end of a toothpick with only a little "cling" to the toothpick. The finish
> is a mild gloss, good for decaling. It dries fairly quickly.
>
>
That's been my experience as well. I live in an area with fairly high
summertime humidity, and I've never experienced any difficulty with
AccuPaint.
While I understand the environmental concerns that are behind the shift
to acrylics, the need to shoot lacquer through the airbrush to clean it
up seems to defeat some of the advantages.
> I>t's supposed to be accurate color-wise, but this argument has gone both
> ways.
>
> The colors of the roads (Maine Central, B&M, Bangor & Aroostook) I follow
> are very accurate. Their EL colors look good to my eye although I'm not an
> EL expert. Also, their paints match the related Accu-cals, which is a real
> plus during certain touch-up jobs. best way to judge the accuracy of their
> colors is to view the decals using the corresponding colors.
>
AccuPaint makes the definitive colours for modern CN. No one else
comes close to the Red-Orange (although I haven't yet seen Pro Color's
version) and their CN lettering grey is perfect for the tiger stripes
(which aren't white).
But who ever met two painters who agreed on anything?
Reg
C.L.Zeni
S Sillato wrote:
>
> Paul Tackowiak (paul_ta...@ccmail.bms.com) wrote:
> : It's a pity Tamiya doesn't make their paint in RR colors. The stuff has
> : to be the best paint going, it's fantastic.
>
> But, they do make RR colors. And I've had very good results with them.
> Oh yeah, I do all my NYC engines with Tamiya. They make those fine paints
> in Black, white and gray, all the colors I need for my RS-3's, 11's and
> FA's.<vbg>
> --
C.L.Zeni
Roger G. Morris wrote:
>
> In article <344B68...@elsewhere.com>, "C.L.Zeni"
> <clz...@elsewhere.com> writes
>
> <huge snip>
> >
> >As I said above, one must learn a new set of skills for success at
> >spraying acrylics, just as one needed to learn new skills to assemble
> >plastic kits when used to working with wood kits. I was a longtime
> >Scalecoat and Floquil user but have successfully made the conversion. I
> >ain't going back, except to put Scalecoat on brass.
> >
> >C. Zeni - airbrush fume inhaler for over 15 years.
> I've noticed lately many references to using Isopropyl Alcohol
> (Isopropanol) as a thinner - the manufacturers' thinners are rarely seen
> over here. Anybody got any suggestions as to thinning with this or other
> mediums? The few times I've tried seem to leave the paint pigments
> suspended in the thinner - useful for non critical weathering but not
> much use for spraying :-(
>
> Any help, especially with recommended pressures and dilutions gratefully
> received.
> --
> Roger G. Morris
I thin the Pollyscale acrylics with Isopropyl Alcohol, roughly 15% or
so. I add the thinner then blow air back through the paint to mix it
thoroughly. Works for me.
David Tunbo
C.L.Zeni wrote:
>
> Roger G. Morris wrote:
> >
> > In article <344B68...@elsewhere.com>, "C.L.Zeni"
> > <clz...@elsewhere.com> writes
> >
> > <huge snip>
> > >
> > >spraying acrylics, just as one needed to learn new skills to assemble
> > >plastic kits when used to working with wood kits. I was a longtime
> > >Scalecoat and Floquil user but have successfully made the conversion. I
> > >ain't going back, except to put Scalecoat on brass.
> > >
> > >C. Zeni - airbrush fume inhaler for over 15 years.
> > I've noticed lately many references to using Isopropyl Alcohol
> > (Isopropanol) as a thinner - the manufacturers' thinners are rarely seen
> > over here. Anybody got any suggestions as to thinning with this or other
> > mediums? The few times I've tried seem to leave the paint pigments
> > suspended in the thinner - useful for non critical weathering but not
> > much use for spraying :-(
> >
> > Any help, especially with recommended pressures and dilutions gratefully
> > received.
> > --
> > Roger G. Morris
>
> I thin the Pollyscale acrylics with Isopropyl Alcohol, roughly 15% or
> so. I add the thinner then blow air back through the paint to mix it
> thoroughly. Works for me.
> Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
>
> * What in the wide wide world of sports is a goin' on here? *
When you say Isopropyl Alcohol, do you mean Rubbing Alcohol? The stuff
that's $.42 a bottle at the grocery store?
F. DABNEY
On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, David Tunbo wrote:
> When you say Isopropyl Alcohol, do you mean Rubbing Alcohol? The stuff
> that's $.42 a bottle at the grocery store?
Sorta. The cheap stuff is usually 70%, the rest mostly water and may also
contain perfumes. Next up is 90%, will cost about a buck a pint and the
rest is water. After that, you go to technical grades which are a lot
more expensive compared to the drug/grocery store grades.
A problem with most (maybe all- I'm not a chemist) alcohols is that they
will absorb moisture from the air, and the purer it is, the harder it is
to keep that way. Alcohol and water are mutualy soluble to a very large
degree, which is where the problem lies.
I've had no luck at all with the 70% stuff- had paint coagulate in the cup
while I was trying to squirt it out.
Fred D.
Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
Robert Hill
In <344BBD...@ccmail.bms.com> Paul Tackowiak
<paul_ta...@ccmail.bms.com> writes:
>
>It's a pity Tamiya doesn't make their paint in RR colors. The stuff
has
>to be the best paint going, it's fantastic.
>
Strangely enough...I spray Modelflex, Accuflex and Pollyscale with
super results...using an $8.00 Badger toy store airbrush and cans of
air. It seldom clogs, is easy to regulate and has no plethora of moving
parts to gum up. My theory on why that stuff is so hard to spray is
that it dries in minute but accumulating amounts while still in the
airbrush being sprayed.
El cheapo airbrush has worked fine so far.
Bob
F. DABNEY
On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, C.L.Zeni wrote:
> F. DABNEY wrote:
> > I've had no luck at all with the 70% stuff- had paint coagulate in the cup
> > while I was trying to squirt it out.
>
> Curious - mebbe it's that dry Texas air? I'm in humid NC and use the
> 70% stuff with no coagulation problems in my cup, though that might
> explain the tip blobbing I usually see.
Hey- that's an insult. It's dry /New Mexico/ air! Some years ago, a
group called the "New Mexico Undevelopment Agency" was formed just to keep
Texans out of the state...
Anyway, the problem with the 70% isopropyl might be in the perfumes or
other additives. No way of knowing without comparing some stock 70% with
90% diluted down. And the flavor sold at your store may be different than
the stuff I get here.
john a dalton
"F. DABNEY" <fda...@NMSU.Edu> wrote:
>
>Hey- that's an insult. It's dry /New Mexico/ air! Some years ago, a
>group called the "New Mexico Undevelopment Agency" was formed just to keep
>Texans out of the state...
...there IS a BORDER CHECK at each end, and in the middle, of the
state...THAT'S A FACT...
>Anyway, the problem with the 70% isopropyl might be in the perfumes or
>other additives. No way of knowing without comparing some stock 70% with
>90% diluted down. And the flavor sold at your store may be different than
>the stuff I get here.
>
>Fred D.
>Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
..."isopropyl" west of bandera, tx is 28% tequila and 14% jalapeno
juice, with the rest sulfur water, and there's a rusty horseshoe nail
in the bottom of each container to adjust the PH...great for a rubdown
after your favorite activity...big juan...
john a dalton
"F. DABNEY" <fda...@NMSU.Edu> wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, john a dalton wrote:
>
>> "F. DABNEY" <fda...@NMSU.Edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >Hey- that's an insult. It's dry /New Mexico/ air! Some years ago, a
>> >group called the "New Mexico Undevelopment Agency" was formed just to keep
>> >Texans out of the state...
>>
>> ...there IS a BORDER CHECK at each end, and in the middle, of the
>> state...THAT'S A FACT...
>
>Yeah. The one to the north was to keep out Colorado folk, while the one
>in the middle was to keep the people in Santa Fe out of Albuquerque.
>
>> >Anyway, the problem with the 70% isopropyl might be in the perfumes or
>> >other additives. No way of knowing without comparing some stock 70% with
>> >90% diluted down. And the flavor sold at your store may be different than
>> >the stuff I get here.
>> >
>> >Fred D.
>> >Watching the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
>>
>> ..."isopropyl" west of bandera, tx is 28% tequila and 14% jalapeno
>> juice, with the rest sulfur water, and there's a rusty horseshoe nail
>> in the bottom of each container to adjust the PH...great for a rubdown
>> after your favorite activity...big juan...
>
>I wonder if I can find that locally. I've a friend (in spite of his being
>a Texan) who'd love it. I'd get him a quart for Christmas, if I could get
>it past the environmental quality control folks.
>
>I hope the nail doesn't still have the horse attached!
>
>Fred D.
>Sleeping through the action from BNSF MP 1112, El Paso sub
...fred...it says "essence of horse" on the label...you can order
ISOPROPYL DE TEJAS from WHIPPET'S EL MEDICINA REMEDIA SHOPPE, box 4,
bandera, tx 44567...$1.29 per pint plus $3.00 s/h...tell them BIG JUAN
referred you for a courtesy discount...
...and don't be surprised if you don't hear from your friend after he
receives the missle, er, gift...he'll just be "slightly overwhelmed"
at your thoughfulness...
..."be patriotic - buy retreads"...big john....
...ps...i always wondered about having a container of something
"drop-shipped"...seems like a conflict in terms, doesn't it...
John Sheridan
Joel Stensberg wrote:
>
>The dark colors
> are at least acceptable, but the true test of paint is the lighter
> colors. I'd hate to have to get white on something...Let's see now, can
> you say "solvent-based?"
>
Yellows and Oranges are always the weakest paints in terms of coverage.
The best way to get good coverage with these colors is to apply a white
coat *first*, then paint your yellows and other thinner colors.
> I still think the new paints are some communist plot to agravate the
> common man into the asylumn :-)
>
Actually, the EPA is the brains behind the "Grand Color Conspiracy" (aka
GCC) <grin>.
Josef Brugger
Joel Stensberg wrote:
> <Snip>
>
> Encouraged by the responses here I went out and purchased new bottles of
> Milw Road Orange (Polyscale) and C&NW Yellow. I then painted three
> shells with the stuff. I followed everybody's tips to the letter. The
> result. I still swear I could urinate in a bottle and get a yellow or
> orange (depending on my diet) that will cover better. The dark colors
> are at least acceptable, but the true test of paint is the lighter
> colors. I'd hate to have to get white on something...Let's see now, can
> you say "solvent-based?"
Since I paint mostly UP, I undercoat with SP Light Lettering Gray
(PollyScale), then fog on light coats of Armour Yellow, giving each coat
about 10 minutes to set up. It seems to cover a little better this way
and if you're working three shells in a session, the drying time isn't a
problem. The Harbor Mist Gray, of course, covers in about two passes.
CNW yellow looks even thinner.
For the record, this is on a shell that's been washed, rinsed in alcohol
and dried. I'm using about 25 PSI in a single-action, internal mix
Badger with a medium tip and keeping everything showroom clean.
My concern with PollyScale is that the finish doesn't seem to harden
real well. Things like the edges of fuel tanks can start showing wear.
But when allowed to dry overnight (even with a couple low-temp shots
from a hair dryer), it does pull down over the detail nicely.
John Sheridan
Joel Stensberg wrote:
>
>
> Well, let me say publically (because I have been blamed with too much
> bashing in the past) that at least your prodcuts are getting better and
> better every year.
>
Thank-you for the kind words.
We have the same problems with yellow and orange on the decal sheets.
It's gotten to a point that we have to add a white layer underneath some
colors so that they don't become translucent when applied to the model.