How to open a Martial Arts academy?
kh...@davidsys.com
What are the main issues to arrange for when opening
a martial arts academy?
Normally, what would an initial investment be, for
an academy about 800 sq ft in area? In northern California,
the monthly rent would be close to $600, for a space
in industrial area. In retail type of area, it would be
almost double that. Add to that the cost of insurance.
It will probably take 6 months for the academy to take off.
If anybody out there has experience in opening up
a martial arts school as a full-fledged business,
please post some recommendations. How do you make
a business like that a success in terms of money?
Usually, it is the middle and lower middle class that
wants to practice martial arts, you cannot charge
too much. Yet, with big rent expenses, and insurance,
what is the best way to go? Maybe, it is better to
have a 'backyard' type school, so that an instructor
can concentrate on the teaching, rather than worrying
about paying next month's bills. But then, the instructor
would have to find a regular job (other than martial arts
instructor) for survival.
Jeffrey S Schreiber
>
>How do you make
>a business like that a success in terms of money?
>Usually, it is the middle and lower middle class that
>wants to practice martial arts, you cannot charge
>too much. Yet, with big rent expenses, and insurance,
>what is the best way to go? Maybe, it is better to
>have a 'backyard' type school, so that an instructor
>can concentrate on the teaching, rather than worrying
>about paying next month's bills. But then, the instructor
>would have to find a regular job (other than martial arts
>instructor) for survival.
I have always been told, and always tell people, that when looking
for a MA school for training, look for one that is not a buisness.
If you want to get quality training, you have to find a school that
is in it for the teaching, not for the money. Their prices should
be resonable, just enough to keep them afloat. If you find a school
that is in it for the buisness, you will find that the quality is
terrible. In a buisness school, they may 'guarantee' a black belt
in 1 1/2 years, for one flat fee of $500. Very tempting, but why
pay $500 for a black belt...give me $20 and I'll order you one for
$6.95, and I'll make a profit...you'll have saved money, and you will
have a black belt of the same quality as the $500 one. Training isn't
to be taken for the speed, It takes time, and the more time and
dedication you give the art, the more you'll get back from the art.
A little off the subject, but my 2 cents non-the-less.
-Jeff
jss...@unhd.unh.edu
jss_m...@unhh.unh.edu
j_sch...@unhh.unh.edu
****************************************************************************
"To save a life in defeat,
is to gain honor and victory within"
-Simon Rhee (Dae Han)
"The Best of the Best"
****************************************************************************
Stephen Northcutt
>I have always been told, and always tell people, that when looking
>for a MA school for training, look for one that is not a buisness.
>If you want to get quality training, you have to find a school that
>is in it for the teaching, not for the money.
Boy! When I read this I wanted to "jump write in" and refute this
broad generalization. But after reflecting on this for a couple
days find I really can not refute your statement.
Of course there exists an x such that x is a commercial school that
charges big bucks and still imparts a quality education. That the
BBs awarded by x are truly BBs by any reasonable judgement.
Near Washington DC the Jhoon Rhee schools and even better Master
Lee's Hapkido are fine examples of this, so is Choi`s TKD in San Jose.
However these are exceptional schools, not the norm.
>[...] In a buisness school, they may 'guarantee' a black belt
>in 1 1/2 years, for one flat fee of $500. Very tempting, but why
>pay $500 for a black belt...give me $20 and I'll order you one [...]
I've posted 11 dojo/dojang trip reports to this list, I have visted over
100 in my career. I have never yet come across anything quite that
crass.
I currently train in a commercial school. They charge big bucks
($800 yr). I will say this, it has been
nice to have the mats, the school video camera, AC, receptionist
to answer the phone ...
There have been things that have offended me about this school,
there isn't sufficient discipline for the younger students, I
am supposed to "push" the school equipment (uniforms, sparring
gear) which is sold at "pro shop" prices. I suppose I could have
put up with all of this except for my son..
Hunter is almost 7, has trained for nighmost 2 years. He is three
weeks away from 1 yr of training at US TKD Center. I DO NOT PLAN
TO RENEW HIS CONTRACT. I just told the master last night. This
was a painful meeting for me. The mass production MA is just not
giving him the training he deserves.
My son and I have been cross training for three months with a
Moo Duk Kwan school. It is not a commercial school, in fact it
is just barely afloat. Since I have been there we have had an
enjoyable exchange of technique to the point that they have signed
up now as a WTF TKD school (keeping the TSD style forms as
extra training). I hope this works out.
Funny though, there is always trouble in paradise. The owner of
the MDK school is very impressed with Master Seong's ability to
sign up students. He is considering joining his school with Master
Seong's.
The moral of the story? The way I see it, commercial schools
are the future. The devastation of litigation will all but end
basement and backyard schools. The JKA style "clubs" don't seem
to be growing, maybe I am wrong here. The challenge that we all
face is how to give/recieve quality instruction in the commercial
environment.
===================================================================
** I support the High Performance Computing Act of 1991 (S-272) **
===================================================================
Stephen Northcutt (sno...@relay.nswc.navy.mil) News Admin
Jon Gaff
> Jeffrey S Schreiber writes:
> >I have always been told, and always tell people, that when looking
> >for a MA school for training, look for one that is not a buisness.
>
> >If you want to get quality training, you have to find a school that
> >is in it for the teaching, not for the money.
>
> Boy! When I read this I wanted to "jump write in" and refute this
> broad generalization. But after reflecting on this for a couple
> days find I really can not refute your statement.
>
> Of course there exists an x such that x is a commercial school that
> charges big bucks and still imparts a quality education. That the
> BBs awarded by x are truly BBs by any reasonable judgement.
> there isn't sufficient discipline for the younger students, I
> am supposed to "push" the school equipment (uniforms, sparring
> gear) which is sold at "pro shop" prices. I suppose I could have
> put up with all of this except for my son..
> Moo Duk Kwan school. It is not a commercial school, in fact it
> is just barely afloat. Since I have been there we have had an
> enjoyable exchange of technique to the point that they have signed
> up now as a WTF TKD school (keeping the TSD style forms as
> extra training). I hope this works out.
> are the future. The devastation of litigation will all but end
> basement and backyard schools. The JKA style "clubs" don't seem
> to be growing, maybe I am wrong here. The challenge that we all
> face is how to give/recieve quality instruction in the commercial
> environment.
This indeed is a challenge. If only the laws of nature applied to MA
schools... then only the best would survive because all the inferior
ones would lose their students. The key is student education and/or
satisfaction with whatever they're learning. If someone is content
with mediocre MA training, they will fuel the success of mediocre MA
schools. Only when students demand better instruction -- and go to
those who can provide it, and pay them for that service -- will better
MA schools flourish and compete with the more "commercial" get-your-BB-
in-6-months-guaranteed kind of schools. But as long as studsents get
into MA for the image potential of having a black belt and winning
trophies at tournaments you will have schools that will cater to their
desires. Supply and Demand.
And I wish to state that the "backyard" school does not necessarily
have to be ruled out for quality, no-risk/fault instruction. With a
private party, if there's some waiver for liability/injury, and if the
student knows this going in, there should be no potential problems.
Especially since most teacher/student relationships in "backyard"
schools tend to be more personal in nature. I learned the best quality
of gung fu instruction from a guy who was too poor to afford a school
and the liability insurance, but he taught me more than I could've
learned in 10 times the amount of training in a commercial school.
So if you know of someone, or ask around, you may be able to find
good, quality instruction from someone who doesn't have a school,
but who nevertheless knows what he's teaching. My sifu certainly does.
-- Jon Gaff
Hung Gar/Choy Li Fut
"I... Have no money..." -- Kwai-Chang Caine.
Doug Welch
I study an ancient celtic martial art called Greenoch. It was
used by a secret society called the Greenoch during midevel
times for assasinations and espionage.The group were for the nost
part employed secretly by the royal courts of midevil Europe.
The art has been secretly handed down from master to student
since the 12th century and although there has been no recorded
activity of the Geenoch society in several hundred years,
I can vouch for the authenticity of my teacher Master Field Marshall
Jim Weiss, the first non celtic Greenoch master in history.
I believe Greenoch is very useful on the streets. If someone came up
to me to mug me I would use Greenoch moves and then some Judo moves
and then some more Greenoch moves. If there were two of them I
would also use some Ninjutsu and TKD moves.
As far as sport goes, Greenoch is NOT a sport and I know if
a TKD guy tries anything on a Greenoch guy or a Ninjutsu
guy it would be over in a flash.
This is because these arts were used secretly for espionage
in the middle ages and posess deadly knowledge. This enables the
Greenoch or Ninjutsu practitioner to easily overpower any
fighter of superior strength and atheletic ablility. Strategic
psychological experience also matters little; its all in the
moves you learn. The secret death blows and castle entry
techniquies are especially potent.
Master Field Marshall Weiss must be able to trace his lineage
back to the ancient Greenoch society, although I have never
ask him. He teaches in L.A. now.
I was wondering if there are any Greenoch schools in the SF
Bay area. I have been studying it for almost a year now and
would hate to quit now. However, I would also like to try
mixing Greenoch, Ninjutsu and either Aikido or TKD.
Would this work?
Sincerely
The Green Druid
Michael Simpson
>
>
>I study an ancient celtic martial art called Greenoch. It was
>used by a secret society called the Greenoch during midevel
>times for assasinations and espionage.The group were for the nost
<article truncated>
>
>Sincerely
>The Green Druid
Perhaps you could describe more in detail this art? First I've heard
of it, though I'd be interested in learning more about it. I listen
to a lot of Celtic music, so I'm curious. Not that I believe that
ANY art will necessarily let someone 'easily disable any fighter of
above average strength and ability' [paraphrased].
-Michael Simpson
(
--
Michael Simpson
Box 32109 Georgia Tech "If a man has learned and loved, then he
GO JACKETS GO!!! can say that he has been happy." -?
Internet: gt2...@prism.gatech.edu
Lou Marco (WRAT)
Who knows? Describe Greenoch.
wr
Steven M. List
>Jeffrey S Schreiber writes:
>>I have always been told, and always tell people, that when looking
>>for a MA school for training, look for one that is not a buisness.
>
>>If you want to get quality training, you have to find a school that
>>is in it for the teaching, not for the money.
>
>Boy! When I read this I wanted to "jump write in" and refute this
>broad generalization. But after reflecting on this for a couple
>days find I really can not refute your statement.
I still feel the need to jump in. Mr. Schreiber makes two separate
statements and makes them seem connected. This is not fair.
The first statement is erroneous, while the second is true and fair and
reasonable.
It all depends on your definition of "business". If the school is the
instructor's sole means of support, then it's a business. It the school
is there for the dual purpose of enabling the teacher to teach *and* to
enable the teacher to eat, then it's a business. To disqualify any
school that tries to at least break even *as a rule* is foolish and
self-defeating.
The school I attend, California Karate Academy, is a business. There is
an ongoing effort to continue to bring in new students and retain the
current students. The owners include Mr. Jim Mather, who is the chief
instructor, and Mrs. Mather, who operates the business side of things.
This is their business and their livelihood.
But Mr. Mather is recognized as a top instructor. He is extremely involved
in the various associations that are actively promoting karate up to the
Olympic level. He's also a very serious practitioner who believes in and
teaches the history, etiquette, and philosophy of the art (Shotokan
Karate).
So I disagree with Mr. Schreiber's first statement.
>>[...] In a buisness school, they may 'guarantee' a black belt
>>in 1 1/2 years, for one flat fee of $500. Very tempting, but why
>>pay $500 for a black belt...give me $20 and I'll order you one [...]
>
>I've posted 11 dojo/dojang trip reports to this list, I have visted over
>100 in my career. I have never yet come across anything quite that
>crass.
I have heard of this from students who either attended or were tempted
to attend at least one other school. Sad, but true.
But there are "good" and "bad" in every field of human endeavor. Why
be surprised? Doctors who sell drugs exist. Lawyers who lie and cheat.
Programmers who deliberately put bombs in their code. Bus drivers who
are rude. It goes on and on.
So, once again, you can't rule out a school just because it is a business.
You must evaluate it on the basis of the instructors, the instruction,
and the students. And in context of what you want to accomplish. Some
of these "business" schools, like West Coast Tae Kwon Do (or is it West
Coast Karate? They have both on their signs and literature), help their
students to achieve physical fitness, learn what appears to be sport
TKD, and seem to make quite a number of their students happy (ignorance
and bliss, eh?). Is that bad? Are the students being cheated?
If you believe that there is a better system, better way, better school,
then you would say "Yes!" But the students aren't unhappy. So what's
the answer? For that matter, what's the question?
>Hunter is almost 7, has trained for nighmost 2 years. He is three
>weeks away from 1 yr of training at US TKD Center. I DO NOT PLAN
>TO RENEW HIS CONTRACT. I just told the master last night. This
>was a painful meeting for me. The mass production MA is just not
>giving him the training he deserves.
I think this is the key point. Mr. Northcutt wants his son to learn
more of the real culture and philosophy and practice than is offered
at a "mass production" MA school. So he's right to change. I happen
to agree with him and his bias. But note that Mr. Northcutt also
recognizes (I hope I'm not misinterpreting) that he could continue
there himself without damaging his training goals because he knows
what he's into there.
>Funny though, there is always trouble in paradise. The owner of
>the MDK school is very impressed with Master Seong's ability to
>sign up students. He is considering joining his school with Master
>Seong's.
>
>The moral of the story? The way I see it, commercial schools
>are the future. The devastation of litigation will all but end
>basement and backyard schools. The JKA style "clubs" don't seem
>to be growing, maybe I am wrong here. The challenge that we all
>face is how to give/recieve quality instruction in the commercial
>environment.
Seconded. I know of a Kung Fu group here in the Bay Area that has
been told that they must either have a "real" school - permanent facility,
letterheads, signs, recruitment, student body - or lose the sanctioning
and training of their instructors. They have *no* choice. They have
been doing what Mr. Schreiber would call "legitimate" instruction for
some time, and are now being forced to become a business. What's the
result? I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Further to Mr. Northcutt's statements, the problem with the "clubs" is
in finding them. They're either hobbies for the instructors, or avocations.
Either way, they're small and elite and sometimes provide exceptional
instruction. Sometimes. But Americans are not, generally, motivated
to seek out such schools - the kind of schools that require exceptional
commitment and dedication and practice. We seem to be a fastfood,
mass produced type of culture, and most people LIKE the idea of a one
year or 18 month black belt program. They don't understand. If they
gain the understanding, then they will either move to a different school
or at least stick with training longer (forever, right?).
Oops - this got a bit longer than I intended. Ah, well. Worthwhile
topic to consider, eh?
Steven
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
: Steven List @ Transact Software, Inc. :^>~ :
: Chairman, Unify User Group of Northern California :
: it...@Transact.COM :
Peter Hahn
>
>This indeed is a challenge. If only the laws of nature applied to MA
>schools... then only the best would survive because all the inferior
>ones would lose their students. The key is student education and/or
>satisfaction with whatever they're learning. If someone is content
>with mediocre MA training, they will fuel the success of mediocre MA
>schools. Only when students demand better instruction -- and go to
>those who can provide it, and pay them for that service -- will better
>MA schools flourish and compete with the more "commercial" get-your-BB-
>in-6-months-guaranteed kind of schools. But as long as studsents get
>into MA for the image potential of having a black belt and winning
>trophies at tournaments you will have schools that will cater to their
>desires. Supply and Demand.
Maybe I'm just unusually thick this week, but this doesn't seem like
such a bad thing to me. If people wish to learn mediocre MA, whazza
problem with that? If they want karate-obics, or Ninja turtle
gymnastics, or whatever next week's craze is, then, by all means, let's
give it to them!
At least they will be getting some healthy exercise, instead of
sitting at home drinking beer. And maybe, every once in a while, one
or two of them will get their appetites whetted for something a little
more serious. And those students will presumbably have learned some
basic skills that they will use in their later, serious, training.
In fact, is this really all that different from the way things have
always been?
--
Peter Hahn |ha...@network.com|"Chu P'ing-man...spent a thousand in gold
7600 Boone Ave. N |+1 612 424-4888 |and three years learning dragon killing
Brooklyn Park, MN USA| |from Hunchback Yi only to learn there was
55428 | |no place for him to practice his art."
Randell Jesup
>The art has been secretly handed down from master to student
>since the 12th century and although there has been no recorded
>activity of the Geenoch society in several hundred years,
>I can vouch for the authenticity of my teacher Master Field Marshall
>Jim Weiss, the first non celtic Greenoch master in history.
I don't want to disparage you or flame you, but I think perhaps you
should take a slightly more sceptical view. As a member of the SCA, many of
whom spend ridiculous numbers of hours researching original and derivative
sources of medieval life and combat, this seems highly unlikely. Many far
more open and widely known and reported things not only no longer have any
modern proponents, but even sources are tough to find. Much of the SCA
dancing is far more modern or largely guesswork, for example. Even in small
isolated villages they didn't survive - new ones took their place.
It's similar to some of the more "romantic" of the neo-pagans/Wiccans/
etc. A fair number like to believe that what they're doing was passed down
without record, etc, etc. The more knowlegable and and less romantic know
how to trace it to early this century (or maybe it was late last century),
when some people tried to revive paganism/etc. After a few years or a
generation and a fair number of people you practice it honestly don't know
about the revival. I'm sure some will flame me, and I freely admit that there
is (and can be) no proof that it wasn't handed down somewhere, just lack of
authentic proven cases.
Another thing to realize is that a lot of things that are handed down
as traditions in families change if they do survive, and the more secrecy
involved with an oral tradition the more likely it is to change. Even if
you prove an unbroken line of descent, there may be no overlap with what
was done N years ago.
There are also cases where a person 0, 1, 2, 3, or more generations
ago decided to weave a yarn for a grandson or son. Remember, story-telling
is an art form, and a lot of people like to practice. Later generations may
honestly believe the original fable. Or someone may "reinvent" it to get
prestige either from family members or friends or to make money, etc, etc.
For example, during english occupation of Ireland, someone may have had an
idea to teach fighting or sabatoge, etc to other people in a revolutionary
group, and used a tale of "ancient heritage" to make them more confident
than "a bunch of stuff I picked up bumming around the world" would have.
>This is because these arts were used secretly for espionage
>in the middle ages and posess deadly knowledge. This enables the
>Greenoch or Ninjutsu practitioner to easily overpower any
>fighter of superior strength and atheletic ablility. Strategic
>psychological experience also matters little; its all in the
>moves you learn. The secret death blows and castle entry
>techniquies are especially potent.
These claims set of warning bells in my mind from _any_ art.
>Sincerely
>The Green Druid
Think about this: do you believe because it strokes your ego, or
fulfills a fantasy, or makes you proud of your heritage, etc? The same thing
that makes people join secret societies, write away for their "family
coat of arms", wrap themselves in a world dominated by roleplaying games,
etc, etc may be enticing you into avoiding evaluating the claims you hear.
This doesn't mean that it can't be an effective martial art, it may
well be so, just as ninjutsu is effective while some people like to wrap
supernatural beliefs and hype around it, for money or attention (or make
bad movies) or ...
--
Randell Jesup, Keeper of AmigaDos, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, je...@cbmvax.commodore.com BIX: rjesup
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Thus spake the Master Ninjei: "To program a million-line operating system
is easy, to change a man's temperament is more difficult."
(From "The Zen of Programming") ;-)
Doug Welch
Followup to earlier introduction of the Green Druid.
A bit long, but points are made.
---------------------------------------------------
Our hero, the Green Druid, ever searching for a more secret, more ancient
more exotic martial art finds himself on the streets of Tokyo in
an effort to find a sensei in the ancient art of Ninjutsu; preferably
a shihan.
As he walks along the brightly lit Ginza district he suddenly has the urge
to take a left into an alley way criss crossed above by electrical and
telephone wires, and flanked by lighted signs of bars, song pubs and tiny
eating establishments. Many of the signs are in English (as this is
a sort of prestige thing in Japan) but he chooses to enter a bar which had
Japanese characters on their sign because this would be a far more
likely place to find a practitioner of Ninjutsu (or might I say a Ninjutsu-ka).
He had seen a similar strategy in a sammurai movie once.
He sits alone for a while sizing up the clientele. They are mostly
business men in suits, drinking and having a good time. The Green
Druid is cautious, knowing, as always, he could be jumped at anytime.
After a while he is convinced that a gentleman at the far end of the
bar, sitting alone, staring ahead with stoic resolve must be a
martial artist. He is very mysterious looking. Possibly he is
one of the ever elusive secret ninja or perhaps he wears a black gi.
The Green Druid approaches him and shows his familiarity and oneness
with Asian cultures by bowing a real martial arts bow; his left open
palm shielding his right fist. The man is somewhat surprised at this
and looks up quizzically. "Konban wa", says the Green Druid showing
that he is not just another foreigner, "I am looking for a good Ninja
school ".
"What?" says the man. He speaks some English. The green Druid
looks for secret looking tatoos on the man.
After quite a lengthy exchange, the man finally understands the word
"Ninja". He laughs. "I don't know" he says as he turns away. "Kono hito wa
hen desu". He says to the woman behind the bar, taking a drink from his glass
of whiskey.
The Green Druid decides to look elsewhere for a Ninjitsu sensei. On the
train he meets with mostly strange looks. "They must be scared to talk
about the ninja", the Green Druid thinks. He finally finds someone who will
speak with him. "The sammurai days are over", the man says, "it's just like
your Europian knights and castles. Maybe you can try Karate. I took it in
high school, it's a good sport."
"Nonsense", the Green Druid thinks. He exits the train at the Sengakuji
station where he has read a very old and very famous Zen temple exists.
Surely here they must have a Ninjutsu school. It is at this temple, he has
read, that the remains of the "47 Ronin" were buried. He walks past some
small tourist shops. At the temple, he sees a few tourists and sight seers.
He pays a couple of hundred yen to walk through a small museum containing
relics and clothing from the so called "47 Sammurai" historical event.
He sees the graves of the 47 (or 48) sammurai, whisps of incense nestling
moodily among the stones and bushes.
Finally, he sees a robed resident of the temple. The man is
wearing glasses which lends a duality of periods to his ambiance against the
robes and among the simple white and brown wood buildings of the temple.
"Do you have a Ninja school here?", asks the Green Druid.
The man smiles shyly without really bothering to fully understand the
question. "No, no..", he says shaking his head, as he walks away.
"I've studied the 21 jitsu arts", the Green Druid calls to him.
On the plane on the way back to California, the Green Druid reflects on
how fortunate he is to have studied the ancient and secret Celtic martial art
of Greenoch from Master Field Marshall Jim Weiss, the first non celtic
Greenoch master in the world. Considering his failure at finding a real
Ninja school in Japan, he resolves to mix Wing Chun and Aikido ( or maybe
Aikijitsu ) with Greenoch. "That will be brutal on the streets", he thinks to
himself. And he still might be able to mix some Ninjutsu in there as well.
"I know there's one guy teaching it in L.A.. You can take anything there",
he thinks. "Next year I'll go to Scotland and get in on a secret meeting
of the Ancient Greenoch Society. Or maybe I'll go to Taipei and study
something secret there for a few weeks" .
As he falls asleep he hears the words of Master Field Marshall Weiss :
"Remember, it's not in your strength or athletic ability. It's not
in your strategic psychological fighting experience. It's not
in understanding the physics of body mechanics. It's not in any
kind of internal strength or higher level of concentration.
It's all down to what moves you know, and mine are ancient and secret."
Later he dreams of Karate Kid's Mr. Miyagi speaking to him while
pruning a Bonsai tree. He hears "..perhaps the westerner studying
martial art tend to over intellectualize, over verbalize, over idealize.
This not Zen, Green-san...remember, you have what you have. Now practice.".
"Naa," he thinks, slightly aroused from his nap, "that wasn't even in the
movie. Maybe some Muay Thai moves would be good too. And a Hapkido kick."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The name Jim Weiss is fictional.
Stephen O. Gombosi
>In article <18...@srhqla.SR.COM> ga...@srhqla.SR.COM (Jon Gaff) writes:
>>
>>This indeed is a challenge. If only the laws of nature applied to MA
>>schools... then only the best would survive because all the inferior
>>ones would lose their students.
>>with mediocre MA training, they will fuel the success of mediocre MA
>>schools. Only when students demand better instruction -- and go to
>>those who can provide it, and pay them for that service -- will better
>>MA schools flourish and compete with the more "commercial" get-your-BB-
>>in-6-months-guaranteed kind of schools. But as long as studsents get
>>into MA for the image potential of having a black belt and winning
>>trophies at tournaments you will have schools that will cater to their
>>desires. Supply and Demand.
>
>Maybe I'm just unusually thick this week, but this doesn't seem like
>such a bad thing to me. If people wish to learn mediocre MA, whazza
>problem with that? If they want karate-obics, or Ninja turtle
>gymnastics, or whatever next week's craze is, then, by all means, let's
>give it to them!
There's a principle in economics called Gresham's (sp?) Law:
"Bad money drives out good"
The same applies here. Natural selection ain't what it used to be (except
in New York, of course :-) ). There's nothing to encourage the proliferation
of non-commercial, traditional martial arts except the sheer stubborness of
their adherents. This may not be enough to ensure their survival. One rip-
off artist taints us all in the minds of the public. Those of us who attempt
to practice and teach the arts in a traditional fashion have a RESPONSIBILITY
to the arts to preserve them intact. It's sort of like "owning" a Japanese
sword - as Lovret Sensei(as well as many others) has pointed out, a properly
cared for Nihon-to will last practically forever - you don't really OWN it,
you have the privilege and responsibility of TAKING CARE of it and passing
it on to the next person lucky enough to be entrusted with it. For those
of us who practice Japanese or Okinawan arts, it's a good idea to remember
the literal meaning of the word "ryu". It's another reading of the word
"nagasu" (combining form "nagashi"). It means to "flow". So, like a
river, the ryu flows from the distant past to the future THROUGH US. We
don't have the right to deprive the future of that tradition by encouraging
its prostitution in the present. Beginners can be forgiven for succumbing
to modern hype - they don't know anything. Those of us who have trained
for a while (especially those of us who have trained for a LONG while) can't
afford that luxury. We are, as the French magazine _Karate_ put it in a series
of articles about the surviving Okinawan 10th Dans, "the guardians of the
tradition". If we don't preserve it, it will be lost forever. If we water
it down, we insult our teachers and rob our successors. If you don't buy into
that, you should be doing something else.
The other thing to remember is that the "-do" in "budo" exists only because
of the state of mind of its practitioners. For the arts to have any real
value, they have to be practiced with the proper state of mind (what
Funakoshi calls "deadly seriousness"). That doesn't mean we can't have fun,
it doesn't mean we can't joke, but it DOES mean that deep down we KNOW
that training is life-or-death. When we contribute to the circus atmosphere
that surrounds the arts in this country (and, I'm sad to say, increasingly
in Japan), we make it more and more difficult to maintain that state of mind.
We destroy the only thing that gives the arts any real meaning in a modern
society.
>At least they will be getting some healthy exercise, instead of
>sitting at home drinking beer. And maybe, every once in a while, one
>or two of them will get their appetites whetted for something a little
>more serious. And those students will presumbably have learned some
>basic skills that they will use in their later, serious, training.
The problem is that there won't BE any serious training available if this
is carried to its logical conclusion.
>In fact, is this really all that different from the way things have
>always been?
Yes, I'm afraid it is. The arts AREN'T going to survive based on their
sheer physical effectiveness any more (a .44 magnum beats a reverse punch
for stopping power any day!). There's no "selective pressure" to ensure that
they will continue. The only thing that preserves them is the sheer intransi-
gence of their practitioners and the other benefits they provide (and I'm not
talking about cardiovascular conditioning). Those other benefits are
dependent on the maintenance of a proper atmosphere and a proper attitude
(nobody ever experienced satori while watching "Laverne and Shirley"). If
we lose that, we lose everything -- and so do ALL THOSE WHO COME AFTER US.
This doesn't mean that the arts don't GROW - our goal should ALWAYS be
to be better than our teachers (that's the ONLY way to be AS GOOD) and
to leave more behind than we found (that's how streams turn into rivers). It
DOES mean that we must maintain what we found and not diminish it for a
fast buck. Every time we sell out, we drive another nail in the coffin.
We really have it very easy, you know. People had to risk death
to create these arts, to inherit them we just have to sacrifice a little
time, money, and sweat! Probably the best bargain in human history...
Look, I'd LOVE to make a profit teaching. In fact, I'd love to break even!
As it stands, I lose a couple of thousand a year, but that's a small price
to pay for the privilege.
I'll get off my soapbox now...
Ganbatte!
- Steve sgom...@isis.cs.du.edu
Jeff Pipkins
>used by a secret society called the Greenoch during midevel
>times for assasinations and espionage.The group were for the nost
>part employed secretly by the royal courts of midevil Europe.
>As far as sport goes, Greenoch is NOT a sport and I know if
>a TKD guy tries anything on a Greenoch guy or a Ninjutsu
>guy it would be over in a flash.
>I was wondering if there are any Greenoch schools in the SF
>Bay area. I have been studying it for almost a year now and
>would hate to quit now. However, I would also like to try
>mixing Greenoch, Ninjutsu and either Aikido or TKD.
>Would this work?
>
>Sincerely
>The Green Druid
Why bother wasting your time learning all of those inferior arts?
Obviously Greenoch is vastly superior. After you master it, maybe
you should learn Purpleoch, Redoch, Brownoch, and the ultimate MA
of all time, Blackoch. Blackoch is, of course, vastly superior to
Greenoch. (Does that mean that Greenoch's superiority is only
half-vast? ;^) If you learned it, you could be the Black Druid.
>I believe Greenoch is very useful on the streets. If someone came up
>to me to mug me I would use Greenoch moves and then some Judo moves
>and then some more Greenoch moves. If there were two of them I
>would also use some Ninjutsu and TKD moves.
After you have mastered the entire system, you would know that if one
person comes up to you, just use Blackoch. If there are two, you can
use Blackoch and anything else, or Greenoch and Redoch, but you must
never use Purpleoch and Redoch because the two styles clash terribly.
Also, don't use Brownoch if you're wearing sneakers, and never wear
plaid at all -- this could render you helpless on the street. (Remember --
only dead men wear plaid (Sensei S. Martin) ).
------------------------------------------------------------------- [sig #25]
Jeff D. Pipkins <uunet!cpqhou!pipkinsj> | A "Frisbeterian" believes that when
<pipk...@cpqhou.se.hou.com> NOTE: I am | you die, your soul goes up on the
NOT authorized to represent my employer. | roof, and you can't get it back
Use my opinions ONLY at your OWN risk. | down.
Peter Hahn
>In article <1991May16.1...@ns.network.com> ha...@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
>
>There's a principle in economics called Gresham's (sp?) Law:
> "Bad money drives out good"
Hmmm....must admit I hadn't thought of that. But read on...
>
>The same applies here. Natural selection ain't what it used to be (except
>in New York, of course :-) ). There's nothing to encourage the proliferation
>of non-commercial, traditional martial arts except the sheer stubborness of
>their adherents. This may not be enough to ensure their survival. One rip-
>off artist taints us all in the minds of the public.
I agree. Where we disagree is that I believe that someone who is teaching
"Ninja Turtle Gymnastics" is not necessarily a rip-off. He or she is
presumably giving his/her students what they paid for.
Now that's a fairly extreme example. I wouldn't really let my own kids
train in such a "ryu". But I'm not so sure that it's necessarily bad
for the arts, provided that this training is presented as beginner's
training, for children.
> Those of us who attempt
>to practice and teach the arts in a traditional fashion have a RESPONSIBILITY
>to the arts to preserve them intact. It's sort of like "owning" a Japanese
>sword - as Lovret Sensei(as well as many others) has pointed out, a properly
>cared for Nihon-to will last practically forever - you don't really OWN it,
>you have the privilege and responsibility of TAKING CARE of it and passing
>it on to the next person lucky enough to be entrusted with it. For those
>of us who practice Japanese or Okinawan arts, it's a good idea to remember
>the literal meaning of the word "ryu". It's another reading of the word
>"nagasu" (combining form "nagashi"). It means to "flow". So, like a
>river, the ryu flows from the distant past to the future THROUGH US. We
>don't have the right to deprive the future of that tradition by encouraging
>its prostitution in the present. Beginners can be forgiven for succumbing
>to modern hype - they don't know anything. Those of us who have trained
>for a while (especially those of us who have trained for a LONG while) can't
>afford that luxury. We are, as the French magazine _Karate_ put it in a series
>of articles about the surviving Okinawan 10th Dans, "the guardians of the
>tradition". If we don't preserve it, it will be lost forever. If we water
>it down, we insult our teachers and rob our successors. If you don't buy into
>that, you should be doing something else.
I agree with everything you have said here. I'd be just as horrified as
you if people were to spend their entire lives pursuing Ninja Turtle
karate-robics. But you are arguing from the perspective of a serious
student. I'm thinking of children, and of the great unwashed masses who
will never become serious students.
If one of my kids wanted to learn to play baseball, I'd want her to
start out by playing T-ball, or slow-pitch softball, not by having
Nolan Ryan try to put one in her ear. I suppose that I'm sort of
viewing this Ninja Turtles silliness in that light; as games for
beginners, intended to build skills that will be used in later serious
training.
Similarly, for the great unwashed masses, I have trained with many folk
who will never become serious students (as, no doubt, you have too).
But though they will never become serious students, nevertheless, they
still seemed to benefit from their training. They got some exercise,
they maybe learned how to act by watching the senior students and the
teachers, geez, maybe they even learned a little bit about
self-defense. Nevertheless, they never trained with the seriousness
that you and I associate with martial arts practice; in a traditional
school, they would not have been considered students at all. Yet they
certainly seemed to be better off for their training.
>The other thing to remember is that the "-do" in "budo" exists only because
>of the state of mind of its practitioners. For the arts to have any real
>value, they have to be practiced with the proper state of mind (what
>Funakoshi calls "deadly seriousness"). That doesn't mean we can't have fun,
>it doesn't mean we can't joke, but it DOES mean that deep down we KNOW
>that training is life-or-death. When we contribute to the circus atmosphere
>that surrounds the arts in this country (and, I'm sad to say, increasingly
>in Japan), we make it more and more difficult to maintain that state of mind.
>We destroy the only thing that gives the arts any real meaning in a modern
>society.
But I'm not proposing that real training, for real students,
be changed in any way. (As though I could possibly make an intelligent
suggestion in that regard, hah hah.)
>>At least they will be getting some healthy exercise, instead of
>>sitting at home drinking beer. And maybe, every once in a while, one
>>or two of them will get their appetites whetted for something a little
>>more serious. And those students will presumbably have learned some
>>basic skills that they will use in their later, serious, training.
>
>The problem is that there won't BE any serious training available if this
>is carried to its logical conclusion.
Why? You're not going to stop teaching. My teacher isn't. Lovret Sensei
isn't. And so forth.
The only question is what happens to the pool of prospective students
available to y'all. My argument is that, if these "martial arts like"
activities are presented in the proper manner, that pool will increase.
After all, baseball coaches don't worry about T-ball replacing baseball.
>
>>In fact, is this really all that different from the way things have
>>always been?
>
>Yes, I'm afraid it is. The arts AREN'T going to survive based on their
>sheer physical effectiveness any more (a .44 magnum beats a reverse punch
>for stopping power any day!). There's no "selective pressure" to ensure that
>they will continue. The only thing that preserves them is the sheer intransi-
>gence of their practitioners and the other benefits they provide (and I'm not
>talking about cardiovascular conditioning). Those other benefits are
>dependent on the maintenance of a proper atmosphere and a proper attitude
>(nobody ever experienced satori while watching "Laverne and Shirley"). If
>we lose that, we lose everything -- and so do ALL THOSE WHO COME AFTER US.
>This doesn't mean that the arts don't GROW - our goal should ALWAYS be
>to be better than our teachers (that's the ONLY way to be AS GOOD) and
>to leave more behind than we found (that's how streams turn into rivers). It
>DOES mean that we must maintain what we found and not diminish it for a
>fast buck. Every time we sell out, we drive another nail in the coffin.
>
>We really have it very easy, you know. People had to risk death
>to create these arts, to inherit them we just have to sacrifice a little
>time, money, and sweat! Probably the best bargain in human history...
Agreed. We certainly are very lucky.
>Look, I'd LOVE to make a profit teaching. In fact, I'd love to break even!
>As it stands, I lose a couple of thousand a year, but that's a small price
>to pay for the privilege.
This, of course, is to your enormous credit.
The only point I'm trying to make is that we seem to be arguing at
cross purposes. I agree with you that real training, for real
students, shouldn't be compromised in any way by next week's fad. I
*would* argue that the small fraction of people who become serious
students at present not only won't be dissuaded, but that they *can't*
be dissuaded. They're a gimme anyway. So why not worry about reaching
the rest of the great unwashed?
One certainly reads, on occasion, of recreational joggers who become
serious marathoners, or of people who graduate from Nautilus workouts
to become competitive bodybuilders. Is martial arts so very different
that we couldn't occasionally snag a serious student the same way?
Stephen Northcutt
>more of the real culture and philosophy and practice than is offered
>at a "mass production" MA school. So he's right to change. I happen
>to agree with him and his bias. But note that Mr. Northcutt also
>recognizes (I hope I'm not misinterpreting) that he could continue
>there himself without damaging his training goals because he knows
>what he's into there.
Stephen is being damaged! I really did start all this (TKD, commercial
school, korean master) just to find out why TKD is so widespread.
I think in about one more year I will be complete in some sense:
know most of three TKD varients: WTF, ITF, TSD to BB level. The
question is will I be a better MA for the experience?
Thorick Chow
>>always been?
>
>Yes, I'm afraid it is. The arts AREN'T going to survive based on their
>sheer physical effectiveness any more (a .44 magnum beats a reverse punch
>for stopping power any day!).
But since I can't legally carry a .44 with me, barehands and simple
'legal' weapons practice IS serious business for me....
-thorick
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.......................................................................
All of the above is from Thorick Chow - DoD #129, and not Sybase, Inc..
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interests: Currently Curious About:
Tai Chi Chuan
Physics (Theory)
andrew.vida-szucs
>In article <1991May19.1...@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sgom...@isis.UUCP (Stephen O. Gombosi) writes:
>>
>>>In fact, is this really all that different from the way things have
>>>always been?
>>
>>Yes, I'm afraid it is. The arts AREN'T going to survive based on their
>>sheer physical effectiveness any more (a .44 magnum beats a reverse punch
This may be true in a vacuum but in the real worl it is not always so.
Remember that in order to be effective, you have to hit your target! I grew
up shooting and can say from experience that in reality there are not that
many persons who are sufficient combat marksmen/women to use a gun effectively
in a 'street' situation.
Also remember that before you can hit your target you must draw your weapon. If
your opponent is within 20 feet of you when they attack, *you* are at a
distinct disadvantage if a holstered sidearm is your choice for response.
Typically, a person needs a minimum interval (mai-ai for Japanese sticklers)
of 21 feet in order to draw, point and fire a handgun with any reasonable
chance of success.
I saw a restricted police training film (I only mention restriction because it
is not commercially available) that demonstrated this and was quite impressed
at how a knife wielding assailant closed the gap and proceeded to carve the
officer into lunch meat even before his pistol cleared the holster. Of course
these were staged and the 'knife' was a red marker that showed all hits.
The same film also gave many first-hand accounts by officers who had been
carved up something fierce in similar real life situations. It is scary to
see for real how incredibly dangerous even a lumbering idiot can be with a
sharp instrument given the determination. Most officers showed their scars
and all I can say is that they were horrible.
Anyhow my point here is that unarmed response is still the best defense in
many (indeed in most) such situations. Of course If I am going to stand
100 feet away and shoot you without your knowledge that I am even there,
then yes, a handgun is vastly superior.
Tracy Rose
> The art has been secretly handed down from master to student
> I can vouch for the authenticity of my teacher Master Field Marshall
> Jim Weiss, the first non celtic Greenoch master in history.
is there any documented anything at anytime? myths even?
Master Field Marshall Jim Weiss ? Is he also 17 years old?
> I believe Greenoch is very useful on the streets. If someone came up
> to me to mug me I would use Greenoch moves and then some Judo moves
> and then some more Greenoch moves. If there were two of them I
> would also use some Ninjutsu and TKD moves.
Why don't you just run them over with a '64 chevy pickup also?
If Greenoch is so effective, then why all the other hoopla?
> As far as sport goes, Greenoch is NOT a sport and I know if
> a TKD guy tries anything on a Greenoch guy or a Ninjutsu
> guy it would be over in a flash.
although I don't hold TKD in the highest fighting esteem, one
would have to be a fool to make such a statement.
> This is because these arts were used secretly for espionage
> in the middle ages and posess deadly knowledge. This enables the
> Greenoch or Ninjutsu practitioner to easily overpower any
> fighter of superior strength and atheletic ablility. Strategic
> psychological experience also matters little; its all in the
> moves you learn. The secret death blows and castle entry
> techniquies are especially potent.
I can see where castle entry techniques would help one on say
Flatbush ave NY.
> Master Field Marshall Weiss must be able to trace his lineage
> back to the ancient Greenoch society, although I have never
> ask him. He teaches in L.A. now.
I'm sure he could since there are 1) no documentation or written
record and 2) it's so 'secret' he could tell you anything
I hope you weren't paying for these lessons.
> Sincerely
> The Green Druid
Come on, this is a joke right? I fell for it so the joke is on me right???
The Green Druid? get a life.....
Serge Gilette
Yeah very funny, as far as i know there's only one celtic martial
art. It'ss name is gouren its a kind of sambo (russian wrestling).
You use hold on your oponent and you try to throw him down. People
still practise it in bretagne (France), maybe in other countries but
i can't be sure.
Anyway you make me laugh to death with you celtic ninja style !!!!
gil...@trinidad.inria.fr | University of Nice, Cote d'azur, France
-------------------------------------------------------------------
He had brought a large map representing the sea, without the least
vestige of land : And the crew were much pleased when they found
it to be a map they could all understand. Lewis Carroll
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Welch
can help me with.
I am a bit confused about a couple of points concerning the
authenticity and goals behind Ninjutsu. If there are any people
out there knowledgeable about the subject maybe they could set me
straight because I am by no means an expert on Ninja.
Anyone who has spent any time in Japan knows it is a very
closed society which is very wary of gaijin --foreigners-- even if they
speak Japanese and claim to understand the culture. This attitude does not
extend only to occidentals. Ethnic Koreans there are still considered gaijins
even though their families have been there for generations. Please don't get
me wrong I am not Japan bashing, I thoroughly enjoy Japan, I am only setting
up a later point.
As we all know, when power was restored to the emperor in
1868 there was a great purge of many old Sammurai ways. Fighting was outlawed,
Sammurai weren't allowed to carry weapons in public, etc. Emperor
Meiji was attempting to modernize Japan and bring it in line with
the industrialized nations. This was around 120 years ago, right? So
assuming that there were super secret groups around referred to as Ninja
(they were around in the 17th century, were they still around in the 19th?
I don't know), they must have become very secret indeed.
So this is where I become confused. When I hear of Ninja schools in
say some town in Pennsylvania, I wonder where it came from.
Do these Ninja schools purport to be real in the sense that there
is some sort of unbroken line going back to the middle ages of
teaching "Ninjutsu"? That then some American went there and found
his way to some (perhaps now out of the closet?) real group of Ninja
or school of Ninjutsu or whatever? And then that they agreed to teach
him/her their secrets, presumably because this American is somehow
specially deserving. And that now these 'secrets' are taught to
motivated students all over America and the world?
Is it more likely that there are groups which have
studied the historical Ninja and in some sense similar to the
Society of Creative Anachronism fashion historical models true
to the period in terms of dress and weapons based on accounts
from books or historical sources of one kind or another?
However, we don't see photographs of members of the Society for Creative
Anachronism in Black Belt magazine dressed in white hiding in the snow, or
clinging menacingly to a stone wall throwing stars.
The question I'm asking is where did this modern Ninjutsu come from ?
What are it's claims in terms of authenticity, if we define authenticity
as degree of closeness to the original source?
It's certainly not unheard of for Americans to study Karate in Japan.
But, as far as I know, Ninjutsu is not recognized by the mainstream
Japanese martial arts community as any kind of peer organization. Please
correct me if I'm wrong here.
Japan is no more immune than anywhere else to having crackpots
espousing one thing or another. If these American Ninjutsu schools
claim to have some sort of ancient lineage originating in ancient
Japan, how real are these claims? Is the Japanese connection
some Japanese group which studied the historical Ninja and faithfully
recreates dress, weaponry and technique based on period accounts and
historical sources as mentioned above?
If these assertions are wrong, I stand corrected. If they are right,
how far is it from the Ninjutsu above to having self proclaimed
masters opening schools teaching fighting techniques from, say,
the court of King Henry the 2nd (assuming detailed accounts on their
fighting techniques exist). I know we have Europian fencing
but that is more analogous to modern Kendo than Ninjutsu.
This is the point I was trying to make in the couple of postings
(and apparently none too well written ones) about the fictional
Greenoch fighting style (actually a town near Glasgow) and the
Green Druid.
Thanks,
Doug Welch
Reinhard Schoen
trose@shinjo (Tracy Rose) answers the posting of an
invincible Celtic whose name I forgot:
[stuff deleted]
> > As far as sport goes, Greenoch is NOT a sport and I know if
> > a TKD guy tries anything on a Greenoch guy or a Ninjutsu
> > guy it would be over in a flash.
>
> although I don't hold TKD in the highest fighting esteem, one
> would have to be a fool to make such a statement.
>
But he's right! I guess if a TKD guy tries anything on a Greenoch
guy it would be over in a flash. And then the TKD guy would call
a doctor, give some first aid, or just walk away.
> > [.....] This enables the
> > Greenoch or Ninjutsu practitioner to easily overpower any
> > fighter of superior strength and atheletic ablility.
Unfortunately, all TKD fighters are of inferior strength; thus the
Greenhorn, sorry, -och master doesn't know how to deal with them.
[...]
> > Sincerely
> > The Green Druid
> Come on, this is a joke right? I fell for it so the joke is on me right???
> The Green Druid? get a life.....
Last time I met a green Druid, I was a 7th level fighter. I made a
charge attack, and the guy changed to red. (Advanced Dungeons and Dragons
is a registered trademark of TSR)
BTW, the ultimate secret MA is Schuerbeln, an old secret Germanic style.
Their disciples are absolutely invincible. But the art is VERY secret.
Actually, it's so secret that NO ONE knows of it's mere existence,
much less of the basic techniques. But don't be worried, Druid. Just
send me DM 500, and I donate You the Black Eye, the symbol of the
Schuerbelmeister (1st Dan).
Reinhard (aka Conan the Bavarian)
/87336
>I have a few questions which perhaps someone on the net
>can help me with.
Let me try...
[Japanese culture and history lesson deleted]
>So this is where I become confused. When I hear of Ninja schools in
>say some town in Pennsylvania, I wonder where it came from.
I can only speak for the school I am a member of: Bujinkan. If the
school is not Bujinkan, you'll have to ask them. Following comments
go for Bujinkan only.
>Do these Ninja schools purport to be real in the sense that there is
>some sort of unbroken line going back to the middle ages of teaching
>"Ninjutsu"?
Yes. Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi is the documented 34th Soke of Togakureryu
Ninpotaijutsu.
>That then some American went there and found his way to some (perhaps
>now out of the closet?) real group of Ninja or school of Ninjutsu or
>whatever?
Yes. As I understand the story, Dr. Hatsumi decided to go public with
Ninjutsu 10 years after the death of the 33rd Soke, his master.
>And then that they agreed to teach him/her their secrets, presumably
>because this American is somehow specially deserving. And that now
>these 'secrets' are taught to motivated students all over America and
>the world?
Americans are not the only gaijin studying Ninjutsu with Dr. Hatsumi.
Dr. Hatsumi shares equally with all gaijin as far as I can tell. We
have high ranking black belts all over the world, i.e. Israel, Sweden,
etc.
>Is it more likely that there are groups which have studied the
>historical Ninja and in some sense similar to the Society of Creative
>Anachronism fashion historical models true to the period in terms of
>dress and weapons based on accounts from books or historical sources
>of one kind or another?
I am a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism. It is a
recreational group. The training we receive in medieval weapons is so
distorted by safety considerations that I doubt it would prove of much
use in reality other than stick fighting. There are quite a number of
people playing Japanese in the SCA, most of them Samurai. The Ninja I
have seen in the SCA were VERY funny! Walking around in broad
daylight in full nightsuit bradishing sickles and stars. Haha!
>However, we don't see photographs of members of the Society for Creative
>Anachronism in Black Belt magazine dressed in white hiding in the snow, or
>clinging menacingly to a stone wall throwing stars.
For good reasons mentioned above.
>The question I'm asking is where did this modern Ninjutsu come from ?
>What are it's claims in terms of authenticity, if we define authenticity
>as degree of closeness to the original source?
May I direct you to the book "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Dr.
Masaaki Hatsumi?
>It's certainly not unheard of for Americans to study Karate in Japan.
>But, as far as I know, Ninjutsu is not recognized by the mainstream
>Japanese martial arts community as any kind of peer organization. Please
>correct me if I'm wrong here.
I can't comment on this for lack of knowledge.
>Japan is no more immune than anywhere else to having crackpots
>espousing one thing or another. If these American Ninjutsu schools
>claim to have some sort of ancient lineage originating in ancient
>Japan, how real are these claims? Is the Japanese connection
>some Japanese group which studied the historical Ninja and faithfully
>recreates dress, weaponry and technique based on period accounts and
>historical sources as mentioned above?
Again, please see Dr. Hatsumi's books.
>If these assertions are wrong, I stand corrected. If they are right,
>how far is it from the Ninjutsu above to having self proclaimed
>masters opening schools teaching fighting techniques from, say,
>the court of King Henry the 2nd (assuming detailed accounts on their
>fighting techniques exist).
In my opinion, these assertions you've made are wrong.
>I know we have Europian fencing but that is more analogous to modern
>Kendo than Ninjutsu.
I admitedly know little about European fencing, but the only way
it resembles Kendo to me is in it's sport orientation.
>This is the point I was trying to make in the couple of postings
>(and apparently none too well written ones) about the fictional
>Greenoch fighting style (actually a town near Glasgow) and the
>Green Druid.
You certainly got lots of responses to your post, but I think
most of them were concernes that you were being duped by the
fictional Weiss character. They were trying to make sure you
were getting the real thing... I believe that Dr. Hatsumi IS
the real thing. I suggest you locate one of our schools, or
attend one of our seminars and see for yourself. Anything else
is... not the real experience. Answer the questions yourself
through research and more importantly experience.
My Sensei's name is Jeffrey Prather. He is a personal student
of Hatsumi Sensei and has the following qualifications:
Godan, Shidoshi, Dojocho
I have been studying martial arts for 15 years and Prather Sensei is
the finest martial artist I have ever met in any style. I consider it
a great priviledge to study with him and have the utmost respect for
him.
>Thanks,
>
>Doug Welch
You're welcome and I hope this helps...
James Ward
--
j...@sunquest.com
Confucious say...
We could do that, but it would be wrong, that's for sure.
Peter Hahn
>I have a few questions which perhaps someone on the net
>can help me with.
[...questions the historical validity of present-day Ninjutsu...]
>This is the point I was trying to make in the couple of postings
>(and apparently none too well written ones) about the fictional
>Greenoch fighting style (actually a town near Glasgow) and the
>Green Druid.
Actually, I thought the Greenoch postings were marvelous. And I must
admit that I wasn't absolutely sure that they were satirical. I thought
they were too well written to be for real, but I did have a nagging doubt
or two.
Given that, and given the responders who apparently swallowed them
hook, line, and sinker, I'd say you raised some valid questions. In return,
here's some questions for you:
Is it inherently less implausible that Ninjutsu survived than Aikijutsu,
Kenjutsu, etc?
[Poaching on Dakin's territory here :-) ] How can we establish, say,
to the degree of certainty a historian would be comfortable with, the
historical validity of any style of martial art, and establish that
that style's techniques have been passed down unchanged for the last
several hundred years?
Do Western boxers ever concern themselves with the question of whether
their art has been passed down unchanged since the days of Daniel Mendoza
and Jem Mace? Why or why not?
If, indeed, Ninjutsu had died as a style, and what we now see is a modern
re-creation, what difference would it make to an average student? To a
serious student? To you?
Dakin Burdick
>Actually, I thought the Greenoch postings were marvelous. And I must
>admit that I wasn't absolutely sure that they were satirical. I thought
>they were too well written to be for real, but I did have a nagging doubt
>or two.
I'm fairly certain he was for real. Here in Bloomington (home of
E.L.F. -- Elf Lore Family & their fabulous holy spot Lothlorien woods
in the Hoosier backcountry) such are things are commonplace. And
remember, he posted from CALIFORNIA! :)
>[Poaching on Dakin's territory here :-) ] How can we establish, say,
>to the degree of certainty a historian would be comfortable with, the
>historical validity of any style of martial art, and establish that
>that style's techniques have been passed down unchanged for the last
>several hundred years?
How about physical evidence? Most martial artists are pretty
uninterested in citing primary sources (sources that date from the
period being discussed), probably because such historiography can
be deadly dull (I think it's fascinating, but I've never had the
reputation of being a party animal). But the practitioner should
at least know the earliest occurence of the art. The WTF says
TKD is thousands of years old, based on tomb paintings and give
those names. When I take a look at those same paintings, I don't
see TKD at all, but at least there is a source we can fight over.
Hatsumi doesn't have much evidence to show us for the history of
Ninjutsu, but his book is still fairly convincing because he gives
a LOT of information not found elsewhere (as far as I know). There
is no book out on Greenoch, nor have I ever seen any evidence of
such an art (although you could probably begin building evidence by
looking at Cornish wrestling).
As for the second part of the question, I don't think any art has been
passed down unchanged. Psych 101 teaches you the unreliability of
memory. Any continuity that can be show (in an art where written
documents are rare) is probably more due to the relatively unchanging
nature of the human body. If a technique is lost by one generation,
it can be rediscovered by another (except for those secret death blows
of course :) ).
>If, indeed, Ninjutsu had died as a style, and what we now see is a modern
>re-creation, what difference would it make to an average student? To a
>serious student? To you?
As a historian, it would be nice to be able to comment on medieval
methods with some certainty. It has good entertainment value for a
lecture. As a martial artist, it wouldn't matter all that much. I'm
sure that my instructor does not appreciate all the times I've tried
to change the forms or insert new techniques.
Dakin
Randell Jesup
>Given that, and given the responders who apparently swallowed them
>hook, line, and sinker,
Oops. But it sounded _so_ real (I've run into more than a few dweebs
who would write things _just_ like that).
>[Poaching on Dakin's territory here :-) ] How can we establish, say,
>to the degree of certainty a historian would be comfortable with, the
>historical validity of any style of martial art, and establish that
>that style's techniques have been passed down unchanged for the last
>several hundred years?
It's highly unlikely they're unchanged. Every teacher/master/student
modifies the teachings to some degree. Some change to greater degrees.
For example, Itto-Tenshin Ryu apparently was an outgrowth of Itto-Ryu, founded
by Kurosawa Kojiro (Sasaki) in the late Edo period (early 1800's/late-1700's).
Some change their names as they change (usually because the "main" line
continues about the same), others merely change according to the practices
of the teachers/headmaster. These can easily be unexpected changes (i.e.
not purposeful).
The more "traditional" schools change at a slower rate, but change
they do. I'm sure Itto-Tenshin Ryu has changed since Lovret became headmaster.
Perhaps not a lot, perhaps not on purpose, but I'd be very suprised if it
hadn't. For example, since many of the practitioners are in the US, and the
average person is taller (though this is changing) here, this is going to
have a (small) effect on the practice of Itto-Tenshin Ryu. Ditto for cultural
differences (our culture approaches things differently).
That all aside, some schools are likely to have not have changed all
the much. Some schools have training scrolls that lay out the teaching of the
Ryu (though these are often purposely vague), others have supporting documents
concerning aspects of the style from chroniclers of the time, and in others
you can discern the roots from looking at several different branches of a Ryu.
A last thing to remember is that most (not all) extant Ryu date to the early
Edo period or later (~1600 or later), and even in the early Edo period there
was fairly rapid change in styles (by today's standards).
--
Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
{uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!jesup, je...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com BIX: rjesup
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
Stephen Northcutt
>modifies the teachings to some degree.
That was then. Now we have video. 20 - 30 years from now,
the standard ref. for various styles may be the pather production
videos.
===================================================================
** my dream: voice, video, data, 3 services, 1 network **
David Silverman
Is the art better because it is the same as it was 400 years
ago? It evolved to a point and someone decided this is it and
it can't ever change again - I don't believe it.
ma...@suntan.viewlogic.com
400 yrs is a pretty decent amount of time inwhich to discover
what works best!
Email Mujahideen
+
+In article <17...@chaph.usc.edu>, silv...@girtab.usc.edu (David Silverman) writes:
+> But why do things have to remain stagnant and unchanging?
+> Is the art better because it is the same as it was 400 years
+> ago? It evolved to a point and someone decided this is it and
+> it can't ever change again - I don't believe it.
+
+ 400 yrs is a pretty decent amount of time inwhich to discover
+ what works best!
Only if you are planning on defending yourself from a 400 year
old mugger :-|.
--
Robert Allen, r...@sun.com DISCLAIMER: I disclaim everything.
"The intelligent man is one who has successfully fulfilled many
accomplishments, and is yet willing to learn more." - Ed Parker
David Silverman
If that were the case there would be only one art -- the best.
sx...@acad3.alaska.edu
Ian