Re: MMA vs. Kung Fu
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Renli" <usagi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172143339....@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> This is in response to a recent thread in which Dimitri decided to
> post several of the more well-known "bjj versus karate" videos and
> then make the claim the BJJ is superior to Kung Fu.
manifold ignorance clipped
> I'm dissapointed with your examples - they don't show much, and what
> they do show appears to be overhyped bullshit presented as facts.
Well here's the facts, Ollie. Every time these clips get posted, the response is
the same..."These guys were no good, not real KF guys"
(Tho' the guy who got his arm busted by John Marsh was in fact a well-regarded KF
master)
So the onus is on the KF community or someone (not the Bjj/mma community) to come
up with someone who is. We can put names, ranks and academies to almost all the
Bjj/mma guys...they have credentials, can be identified etc. No disputes as to
their competency, if they get beaten, that's it.
So what you have is a great big, bucket of nothing except excuses.
You can understand all this, can't you? It's very simple. KF vs mma/Bjj and KF
loses. So far, no exceptions. If the KF guys are no good, whose fault is that?
And given these simple, incontrovertible facts, who has the "overhyped bullshit
presented as facts"?
--
GDS
" Let's roll! "
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> On Feb 22, 9:07 pm, "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
>
>> > I'm dissapointed with your examples - they don't show much, and what
>> > they do show appears to be overhyped bullshit presented as facts.
>>
>> Well here's the facts, Ollie. Every time these clips get posted, the response
>> is
>> the same..."These guys were no good, not real KF guys"
>
> representatives of kung fu by any means.
De Lucia stated his credentials on UFC 2. Have you ever seen UFC 2?
Not by any means. And the 15
> year old kids in the highschool gym? please... Post more clips -
> seriously.
Not our problem. You go looking for clips. Do some work of your own.
>> (Tho' the guy who got his arm busted by John Marsh was in fact a well-regarded
>> > KF master)
>
> Who was he? Was that in one of the videos?
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!!! I'm not doing it for you!!! You accuse me and others of
ignorance, but it's YOU that is talking out your ass! If you knew the subject
matter, you wouldn't have to ask.
>> So what you have is a great big, bucket of nothing except excuses.
>
> Erm, try to be civil here. The fact is that those clips DON'T
> represent kung fu at all.
Well THEY said they did. Guys like De Lucia, whose KF credentials so exceed yours
that the comparison is embarrassing.
> 6 fot 6 400 pound wing chun guy?
If he's overweight, whose fault is that? Have a look at Rickson. 185 sculpted
pounds of grappling nightmare.
Putting
> aside the fixation you people seem to have for Wing Chun (tried it,
> didn't like it personally, but thats just me) -- the big black guy was
> trying to learn grappling. Where's the Kung Fu GDS?
Good fucking question, but not mine to answer, is it?
You can understand all this, can't you? It's very simple. KF vs mma/Bjj and KF
>> loses. So far, no exceptions. If the KF guys are no good, whose fault is that?
>
> Karate clips, teenagers in highschool gyms, big black guys grappling
> small little guys, slap "MMA VS KUNG FU" on it and it's the latest
> craze on alt.ufc.
So where's your counterpoint?
>> And given these simple, incontrovertible facts, who has the "overhyped
>> bullshit
>> presented as facts"?
>
> I'll make a post on that shortly, to the effect of "Grandma VS Feng
> Zhi Qiang".
So let me get this straight.....
MMA/Bjj guys beat KF'ers. The KF'ers are no good (at least that's the claim POST
fight by guys like you with less KF credentials than the guy getting beaten)
This proves what? That KF'ers COULD win if only they could come up with the right
guy?
You do realize how hopelessly lame that sounds, don't you?
And even if that *were* true, who has the work to do to make it true? The MMA/Bjj
community?
C'mon. Get real. Think about it just a little, if you can.
Matthew Weigel
> matter of skill or anything beyond basic training. Quite simply "it's
> not kung fu".
That is solely the problem of the kung fu community. If it makes you feel
better to disregard the people stepping forward as "not [doing] kung fu" at
all, that's your prerogative. But they step up, they say they do kung fu...
would you question them so closely if they won? If the fellow in this video
"attempted a technique out of agression and not out of timing or skill" but
knocked out the MMAer, would you say "great, but he wasn't doing kung fu so we
can't take the credit"?
> The question remains however, what
> would the "black belt" have done had he landed the first punch?
Would he have suddenly become an adequate representative of karate?
> Also I hate to play Dr. Obvious again but there is no reason to
> believe the karate guy is a black belt, or even a practitioner of
> karate.
We can only be so skeptical, as time goes on. If no one who has ever stepped
forward as a kung fu or karate practitioner has been a legitimate
representative of their style... where does that leave the people who are
legitimate representatives?
> What is even more interesting is that
> preying mantis would be considered an evolution over five animals kung
> fu from a historical standpoint, so even this conclusion doesen't make
> sense. Jason also claims to practice and/or teach Tai Chi.
100% of the kung fu people I've met face to face have been completely wrong
about the history of kung fu - starting at the beginning, moving forward to
the last 20 years. Are they all disqualified from representing the fighting
techniques of kung fu?
OR are they only disqualified after their training is shown to not have
conveyed relevant skills?
Why is it that in all of these videos, the fact that anybody can claim to do
MMA hasn't led to someone unable to demonstrate any skill whatsoever
representing MMA? Why hasn't there been a video where the karate guy and the
MMA guy both look equally incompetent?
--
Matthew Weigel
hacker
unique & idempot.ent
Wayne Dobson
news:nAgDh.2224$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Renli" <usagi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1172143339....@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> This is in response to a recent thread in which Dimitri decided to
>> post several of the more well-known "bjj versus karate" videos and
>> then make the claim the BJJ is superior to Kung Fu.
>
> manifold ignorance clipped
Detailed argument discarded.
>> I'm dissapointed with your examples - they don't show much, and what
>> they do show appears to be overhyped bullshit presented as facts.
>
> Well here's the facts, Ollie. Every time these clips get posted, the
> response is the same..."These guys were no good, not real KF guys"
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't regard them well and they don't
represent what I learned.
> (Tho' the guy who got his arm busted by John Marsh was in fact a
> well-regarded KF master)
>
> So the onus is on the KF community or someone (not the Bjj/mma community)
> to come up with someone who is. We can put names, ranks and academies to
> almost all the Bjj/mma guys...they have credentials, can be identified
> etc. No disputes as to their competency, if they get beaten, that's it.
They don't have to play by your rules. They have different values. BJJers
culture is one of openness and dissemination, whereas the KF community's
culture is one of guarding and secrecy. It's the philosophy of the young,
against that of the old. The old way is better.
> So what you have is a great big, bucket of nothing except excuses.
I saw an honest analysis. Obviously, you saw something else.
> You can understand all this, can't you? It's very simple. KF vs mma/Bjj
> and KF loses. So far, no exceptions. If the KF guys are no good, whose
> fault is that?
You believe that because you don't have a clear idea of what a real fighter
looks like.
> And given these simple, incontrovertible facts, who has the "overhyped
> bullshit presented as facts"?
Lack of a video does not constitue incontrovertible evidence.
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> These clips are played to the public from within the MMA community
How do you know they are "from within the MMA community"? The John Marsh clip
certainly wasn't. And where are the clips from the KF community showing the
opposite?
as
> "evidence" that MMA or BJJ or whatever beats whatever art, 100% of the
> time. If you just take a look at the videos and dig a little into the
> people in those videos you will realise it's basically just marketing
> hype.
You talk about 'dig a little' and you don't even know the names or the
credentials of the people involved. You're utterly full of shit.
> And what is it about Wing Chun that gets grapplers all riled up?
Their bullshit claims like 'anti-grappling' which only works inside their little
cloisters. If it worked against grapplers with a clue, they'd be doing it, but it
doesn't and they don't.
You
> guys should start talking more about hung gar and choy li fut, got any
> clips of decent guys from those styles? :)
Why don't you do some research of your own?
> Just please.. no more 15 year old karate.. seriously lol
Those towels are piling up, Richman....get wringing.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
news:2OhDh.5205$I46...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> I can't speak for anyone else,
Then shut the fuck up, retard.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> On Feb 22, 9:48 pm, "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde63...@bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
>
>> >> So what you have is a great big, bucket of nothing except excuses.
>>
>> > Erm, try to be civil here. The fact is that those clips DON'T
>> > represent kung fu at all.
>>
>> Well THEY said they did. Guys like De Lucia, whose KF credentials so exceed
>> yours
>> that the comparison is embarrassing.
>
> of kung fu,
WRONG!
and Levicki Sifu Leung has it on his website Levicki never
> learned wing chun.
SO???
He learned off mr. R. B for around 2 years. Sure,
> he SAID he was doing wing chun. And frank dux used to kill for the
> CIA.
Quoting one fraud to disprove another? Way to go, Ollie....
>> > 6 fot 6 400 pound wing chun guy?
>>
>> If he's overweight, whose fault is that? Have a look at Rickson. 185 sculpted
>> pounds of grappling nightmare.
>
> The point is more that instead of trying to do WC he is obviously
> trying to grapple.
He's trying to survive. He has no answer to what has been put in front of him,
which answers your question of 'Where's the Kung Fu?" You get it now? There's no
Kung Fu because he never gets a chance to do it, he's forced into attempting to
grapple. That's the whole point - to beat it, you've got to do it. Where's
Rickson's Kung Fu?
Where does the whole WC angle come from? I don't
> get it. It's like someone took this video in a school and said "hey
> lets turn this into a wc vs bjj video and it will be all cool n shit"
> it's so fake, the telephone conversation in the beginning, get real
> lol
>
>> > aside the fixation you people seem to have for Wing Chun (tried it,
>> > didn't like it personally, but thats just me) -- the big black guy was
>> > clearly trying to learn some grappling. Where's the Kung Fu GDS?
>>
>> Good fucking question, but not mine to answer, is it?
>
> Apparently not. But as there isn't one shred of kung fu anything in
> that movie, I really don't see why it keeps getting passed around as
> "evidence". Evidence of what, that BJJ works against heavier, taller
> people? great, I guess thats why its so popular?
> Groundfighting is a system of martial arts after all hehe
Re-read what I just wrote. It answers all the other gibberish I just clipped,
too.
Wayne Dobson
news:12tr93r...@news.supernews.com...
> Renli wrote:
>
>> matter of skill or anything beyond basic training. Quite simply "it's
>> not kung fu".
>
> That is solely the problem of the kung fu community. If it makes you feel
> better to disregard the people stepping forward as "not [doing] kung fu"
> at
> all, that's your prerogative. But they step up, they say they do kung
> fu...
> would you question them so closely if they won? If the fellow in this
> video
> "attempted a technique out of agression and not out of timing or skill"
> but
> knocked out the MMAer, would you say "great, but he wasn't doing kung fu
> so we
> can't take the credit"?
>
>> The question remains however, what
>> would the "black belt" have done had he landed the first punch?
>
> Would he have suddenly become an adequate representative of karate?
It's not about whether it was adequate, as it was clearly not. But it just
didn't look like karate.
>> Also I hate to play Dr. Obvious again but there is no reason to
>> believe the karate guy is a black belt, or even a practitioner of
>> karate.
>
> We can only be so skeptical, as time goes on. If no one who has ever
> stepped
> forward as a kung fu or karate practitioner has been a legitimate
> representative of their style... where does that leave the people who are
> legitimate representatives?
Most of them can't fight, whether they step up or not.
>> What is even more interesting is that
>> preying mantis would be considered an evolution over five animals kung
>> fu from a historical standpoint, so even this conclusion doesen't make
>> sense. Jason also claims to practice and/or teach Tai Chi.
>
> 100% of the kung fu people I've met face to face have been completely
> wrong
> about the history of kung fu - starting at the beginning, moving forward
> to
> the last 20 years. Are they all disqualified from representing the
> fighting
> techniques of kung fu?
I don't know what a knowledge of history has to do with the ability to
fight.
> OR are they only disqualified after their training is shown to not have
> conveyed relevant skills?
>
> Why is it that in all of these videos, the fact that anybody can claim to
> do
> MMA hasn't led to someone unable to demonstrate any skill whatsoever
> representing MMA? Why hasn't there been a video where the karate guy and
> the
> MMA guy both look equally incompetent?
Because MMAers actually fight, and do so across styles. Speaking for
myself, I've been droning on about the fact that if you don't do it, you
can't do it. Fighters fight. You can't gain the skills by theorising.
Find a counter-example.
YumYumPandaburger
Renli schreef:
> It's not my
> responsibility to you to prove my system works.
You're a total fag. It's not my responsibility to prove that though.
You just are because I say you are, so you'd better accept it.
Mark Goldberg
>
> Re-read what I just wrote. It answers all the other gibberish I just clipped,
> too.
You know what's weird?
He's going back over ten yrs with this bit. He did that with his first
'entrance' last week. And what a powerful display that was.
What subtle internal strength, he exhibited there. A movement that was
of course
as subtle as liver spots.
It's embarrassing. He should know better.
I was watching fights last year- Karo Parisyan comes to mind.
I think he was a judo fighter, I might be wrong here. But he was
described as such by the announce. Obviously he has expanded to mma and
what a fine fighter he is. He got beat by Diego Sanchez, getting a tooth
knocked out, but he's a superb mma fighter.
I mention him as an example of a guy from another background who
excelled at mma.
I'd love it if some of the best shuai jiao fighters, and others, would
take up the mantle of mma to test their metal.
In the sport of mma, we have now, guys like GSP who were punch kickers,
taekwondo guys, who went further in punch kick, to wrestling, bjj and
mma and have achieved preeminence.
But we haven't seen any yet of those other 'internal' styles.
If Oliver loves his arts- and he has the right to that... I wish he'd
stop with the 10 yr old arguments that he lost yrs ago, and stop trying
to salesman his way back to what if victories, that are meaningless now
that the mma's fighting arena has arrived. Guy's like Mike Sigman, like
mma too, and understand the issues, which unfortunately, Renli, only
seems ignorant of, constantly projecting his love of his arts into a
whining complaint for acceptance.
When he looked like an envious schoolboy, last week, when you mentioned
the assault upon the girls, he showed not the subtlety of a man who knew
how to 'enter' and join the discussion but only one who was showing his
adolescent fixation to be believed, again. After these years.
Mark
trav...@aol.com
> too.
> --
> GDS
Dude, why are you even bothering w/ this troll? We tried to get
Gichoke here to fight him, I offered to fight him.
The difference between Renli and Xiaou2 is that the latter doesn't
know he's trolling which only makes him that much better.
Trav
Chas
> Well here's the facts, Ollie. Every time these clips get posted, the
> response is the same..."These guys were no good, not real KF guys"
And that kf techniques are prohibited in most mma competition.
I haven't seen any 'homeland' guys fighting as 'kf' representatives- no
Chinese, no Taiwanese, no HK'ers. That isn't to say that we blue-eyed ghosts
can't learn it, but you'd think that the UFC Research and Investigation
Teams, out searching the globe for the Best Fighters, would have sponsored a
few for the Experimental Protocol requirements for peer validity.
> So the onus is on the KF community or someone (not the Bjj/mma community)
> to come up with someone who is.
Only if they want to go to work for Mr. Zuffa.
Only if we accept that 'mma' competition rules best reflect 'unarmed'
fighting.
And I don't.
The criteria being that a full-range martial art contains everything that
'mma' strives to do, and more; more techniques, more targets, fewer
protections or restrictions.
> You can understand all this, can't you? It's very simple. KF vs mma/Bjj
> and KF loses. So far, no exceptions. If the KF guys are no good, whose
> fault is that?
There is a definite predilection by most 'arts' practitioners in civilized
countries to fail to be aggressive enough with *whatever* they do. The most
positive aspect of mma competition is the emphasis on attack rather than
defense.
Most kf instruction, over the past thirty-five years or so, here in the US,
has emphasized self-defense rather than proactivity. It is receptive rather
than assaultive.
Not a problem for me, but endemic amongst lots of other systems.
> And given these simple, incontrovertible facts, who has the "overhyped
> bullshit presented as facts"?
The guys promoting prizefights as 'real fights'.
Of course they're not real fights- they're athletic contests for
entertainment, not investigation into fighting methodologies in some
scientific protocol.
Like I said; my teacher thought they were funny- entertaining, but
sophomoric.
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, massage tools, practice and conditioning tools)
Chas
> Apparently not. But as there isn't one shred of kung fu anything in
> that movie, I really don't see why it keeps getting passed around as
> "evidence". Evidence of what, that BJJ works against heavier, taller
> people? great, I guess thats why its so popular?
> Groundfighting is a system of martial arts after all hehe
Ding!
They want to claim bjj (out of kung fu), want to claim Muay Thai (out of
kung fu), want to claim Sambo (out of kung fu)- and exclude any knowledge of
the techniques from the very foundation of their game.
If you broke a guy up with an arm-bar, they'd want to say you were using
bjj.
Horsefeathers.
Is it better than boxing? yes.
Better than WWE? yes.
Better than hockey? in my opinion.
but it's still a game.
> Isn't it interesting, that the same comments were made when I posted
> the Tai Chi vs. Grappling clip? Even though the guy was a wrestling
> champion and a bodyguard to p diddy or whomever, people said "he
> sucks".
That's always the answer; 'it was faked', 'he didn't try hard enough', 'it
looked like a magic trick', 'Houdini could fake that',......
Al Colangelo lines up some *monsters*; San Diego pitfighters- Samoans, and
those huge powerlifter Mexicans. The only reaction was; 'that just couldn't
be', 'it was faked', they're all frauds, David Copperfield did something
like that one time, you ought to show that to Randi- all that crap.
It's the technology, not the material, and the standard for 'proof'. On one
hand, detractors will accept nothing but (free) video clips. On the other
hand, any clip provided is accused of falsification, if not prepared fraud.
It's hilarious.
Chas
> Let me be frank, if you examine the claims they do not stand up to his
> description of the arts he claims to practice.
Starting with calling it 'kung fu'.
If they don't know any more than that, they can't know any more than that.
>......I humbly suggest that since
> you like to trumpet these MMA vs KF videos, you might try seeking out
> instructors on a national level and challenging them.
Nah; just bother them.
Handle what they do before you start imposing rules favoring what you do and
claiming something is proven beyond question.
> It's not my
> responsibility to you to prove my system works.
Particularly as any video clip would be derided as 'faked', or 'he wasn't
trying hard enough', or 'they're all mezmirized by his charisma',.....
Chas
Mark Goldberg
>
> You should have been a pulp fiction writer. Your wasted as a doctor,
> mark :)
>
> -
>
Like you'd ever come up with the co-pay :^))
Mark
Chas
> I think he was a judo fighter, I might be wrong here. But he was described
> as such by the announce. Obviously he has expanded to mma and what a fine
> fighter he is. He got beat by Diego Sanchez, getting a tooth knocked out,
> but he's a superb mma fighter.
Yes; both techniques are centuries old in asian martial skills.
> I mention him as an example of a guy from another background who excelled
> at mma.
What 'other background'?
He's an Armenian judoka, or somesuch- he's done some Muay Thai, although he
probably called it something else in Armenian, besides 'kung fu'.
> I'd love it if some of the best shuai jiao fighters, and others, would
> take up the mantle of mma to test their metal.
What 'test their metal'?
MMA is a prizefighting business- they pick amongst the pool of competitors
in their sport; wrestlers (shuai chou in Mongolian, kung fu in Chinese),
judo players (shuai chou in Mongolian, kung fu in Chinese), boxers (kung fu
in Chinese, karate in Japanese- the 'boxing' in 'kick-boxing), kickers (tkd
in Korean, kung fu in Chinese, Muay Thai in Siamese).
And, who's going to sponsor these 'shuai chao' practitioners?
Just because someone saw a picture in a cultural anthropological survey on
indigenous martial arts of the world doesn't mean that they've got a plane
ticket to Dana White's office. He's not putting on an 'olympics' or
anything- they've got to strip down to speedos, put on the gloves and cup,
stop headbutting people and fight like the rest of them.
Which looks very much like the rest of them.
> In the sport of mma, we have now, guys like GSP who were punch kickers,
> taekwondo guys, who went further in punch kick, to wrestling, bjj and mma
> and have achieved preeminence.
Yeah; hard-working kid.
> But we haven't seen any yet of those other 'internal' styles.
Sure-
think what would happen if you poked a hole in someone.
You know people that can do that, Mark; so do I.
Let's say he steps into the ring, breaks a few fingers in the touch, and
pokes a fuckin' hole in his opponent.
Where's the fun in that, buddy?
> .....Guy's like Mike Sigman, like mma too, and understand the issues,
Yeah; been sued over them and barely escaped criminal charges on a number of
occasions- I don't think he cares to make an issue over 'does it work when I
do this?' anymore; it does.
Mr. Richman has much the same understanding of martial endeavor as do I. We
have a similar grasp of history; a similar understanding of areas of martial
skill, and how they're trained. We have a similar regard for what's
necessary to gain the skills; how to train them.
And we're about the only two people in the conversation that have ever
actually even *met* people who practiced the skills adeptly; put their own
body on the line, even attempted to learn to do the skills to whatever
degree.
Everybody else is arguing in the most basic vacuum of experience.
Chas
>.....And where are the clips from the KF community showing the opposite?
So far, they've been the ones derided as frauds and fakes.
See; you guys want a sport competition- not what most asian arts are
predicated on, particularly under such rules.
Then, when you get a clip, the first reactions are; 'he wasn't trying hard
enough', or 'I couldn't see what happened', or 'they're all faking it', or
'they're all in his evil spell of hypnotism', 'he didn't go to Brazil and do
it', or somesuch.
It's hilarious.
> You talk about 'dig a little' and you don't even know the names or the
> credentials of the people involved. You're utterly full of shit.
Nah; it's like following cinema actors- who cares?
> Their bullshit claims like 'anti-grappling' which only works inside their
> little cloisters. If it worked against grapplers with a clue, they'd be
> doing it, but it doesn't and they don't.
Except that UFC rules prohibit what WC'ers do best; small bone attacks,
headbutts, finger-jabs and eye-attacks, throat strikes, groin strikes,......
How is it a 'fair test', when it obviously isn't fair?
Should WC'ers re-train to comport to the rules?
Would it still be WC, or a 'sport-compliant' hybrid?
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:YaOdncHdM5ykbEDY...@comcast.com...
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> Well here's the facts, Ollie. Every time these clips get posted, the response
>> is the same..."These guys were no good, not real KF guys"
>
> And that kf techniques are prohibited in most mma competition.
We're talking challenge matches here, Chas, not mma etc. The rules or lack of
them are mutually agreed before such bouts, so disputes along these lines are not
valid.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> Except that UFC rules prohibit what WC'ers do best; small bone attacks,
> headbutts, finger-jabs and eye-attacks, throat strikes, groin strikes,......
> How is it a 'fair test', when it obviously isn't fair?
> Should WC'ers re-train to comport to the rules?
> Would it still be WC, or a 'sport-compliant' hybrid?
Chas, we are talking challenge matches, not UFC. But even if that were the case,
when there much limited/no rules, we didn't see much difference.
Oliver Richman is the single most clueless boofhead ever to haunt rma; he is the
clown against whom all other clowns are judged.
That he seeks to invoke arts with which you are familiar is no good reason to
align with him. It's his reasoning that's faulty.
And if he spends much more time here diverted from his towel-wringing job, I'm
gonna have to sack his ass.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
<trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1172169861.3...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
Hmmm, good points. Maybe he'd like to reconsider your challenge? What do say,
Ollie?
At least he's confirming the validity of the Richman Scale....he's the 10/10 real
deal.
Chas
> We're talking challenge matches here, Chas, not mma etc. The rules or lack
> of them are mutually agreed before such bouts, so disputes along these
> lines are not valid.
We don't know that.
You may postulate it, but I see no evidence of kf'ers using 'kung fu'
techniques- as contrasted with any others, at any rate.
Same quibbles as usual- use your own for a guide.
Chas
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> On Feb 22, 10:44 pm, "GreendistantNOSPAMstar"
> <pde63...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>
>> > What credentials? DeLucea doesen't study any known or respected branch
>> > of kung fu,
>>
>> WRONG!
>
>
> * Five Animals Kung Fu
> * Praying Mantis Kung Fu
Woo woo! Put yer foot in your mouth, eh Ollie?
> * Tai Chi
> * Aikido
> * In addition Jason DeLucia is certified as a Hybrid Wrestling
> Instructor by the Pancrase organization.
> * He is proficient in groundfighting to a degree (judo? jujitsu?
> dunno)
He started learning GJJ after getting pwned at the Gracie Academy. So he was
maybe a 2 stripe white belt when Royce beat him in UFC 2.
> Let me be frank, if you examine the claims they do not stand up to his
> description of the arts he claims to practice.
Says you = zero.
The tai chi information
> on his page is meaningless.
Not my problem or the issue.
His description of the five animals and of
> praying mantis is wrong.
So who should I believe...the guy with the sash or you?
>Aikido isn't even kung fu.
You don't say!
Neither is "hybrid
> wrestling" or "kung fu".
Kung Fu isn't Fung Fu?
Even if we totally accept his claims of being
> proficient in tai chi, which he is obviously no more than a dabbler at
> best, that would mean he has 2 kung fu points out of 6 other styles
> other arts. Thats 33% kung fu. I would not call that a representative
> - heh.
Then who is?
>> and Levicki Sifu Leung has it on his website Levicki never
>>
>> > learned wing chun.
>>
>> SO???
>
> So if he only studied wing chun for 2 years from some guy who just
> started what do you think that says about his ability to competently
> apply what he learned, given that the timeline is about 5-6 years of
> instruction under a qualified instructor in that system? He didnt have
> what it takes, its not apologetics, its a fact which you seem to not
> want to accept.
Ask Xiaou2. He studied KF for 2 years and apparently is an authority to be
reckoned with, just like you ie self-acclaimed.
>
>> >> > aside the fixation you people seem to have for Wing Chun (tried it,
>> >> > didn't like it personally, but thats just me) -- the big black guy was
>> >> > clearly trying to learn some grappling. Where's the Kung Fu GDS?
>>
>> >> Good fucking question, but not mine to answer, is it?
>>
>> > Apparently not. But as there isn't one shred of kung fu anything in
>> > that movie, I really don't see why it keeps getting passed around as
>> > "evidence". Evidence of what, that BJJ works against heavier, taller
>> > people? great, I guess thats why its so popular?
>> > Groundfighting is a system of martial arts after all hehe
So your way out of being totally incapable to produce a whit of evidence is to
merely proclaim these other stylists have no credentials. So what are yours,
then?
>> Re-read what I just wrote. It answers all the other gibberish I just clipped,
>> too.
>
> If your asking me to assume that these fights began as a standup
> sparring match to test the general effectiveness of the systems, I am
> sorry but I don't believe you. What I have been shown by
> YumYumPandaBurger was a bunch of clips where either the guy simply
> wasn't even a kung fu guy, or he was so ridiculously bad that you
> would have to wonder "where did they find this guy?"
Then find me one who is. Maybe YOU should put yourself on the line, seeing as all
these other guys have no credentials according to you. So who would you like?
Trav? GiChoke?
> In the same manner that you request that I come up with clips of
> grapplers getting owned by tai chi bolts I humbly suggest that since
> you like to trumpet these MMA vs KF videos, you might try seeking out
> instructors on a national level and challenging them.
Why? They aren't making stupid claims and putting down others with credentials.
It's not my
> responsibility to you to prove my system works.
So it's up to someone else to prove your points, is it? How pissweak of you.
Even if it was, you
> failed the first test - you have to admit that it is possible, however
> unlikely, that the systems work as advertised.
Fine with me. You're the expert, so you and me. When, where and for how much?
How about USD$10,000 each, winner takes all?
But first you gotta prove you have the money and the balls.
That's an awful lot of towels that need wringing.
Now back to work, or you won't get that promotion to flipping burgers.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
Now why would that be? The KF guys that have taken on mma guys have either lost
because their KF didn't work, or have survived a little longer by using other
techs.
It doesn't speak well of their art, does it?
Chas
> Now why would that be? The KF guys that have taken on mma guys have either
> lost because their KF didn't work, or have survived a little longer by
> using other techs.
What are these 'other techs'? Arm-bar, choke, submitting on the ground?
All of those techs have always been in 'kung fu'.
And, by the way, let's define what you mean by 'kung fu'- it means 'hard
work', so it covers everything from Kempo to Wu shu.
And, decide which techniques, coming out of Japan, are 'mma' (as opposed to
being 'kung fu' in Chinese), and which are not. Decide whether you're going
to claim 'judo' or not, and why it's not 'kung fu' (when spoken in chinese).
You can't just co-opt everything as 'mma', and ignore where it comes from
('kung fu' in Chinese).
Chas
Fraser Johnston
> Winner? See thats your problem. You're unable to admit that there is
> something to be learned in all this. Thats why it is so difficult to
> explain to you, the truth is you aren't looking for an explanation -
> you're looking for a fight. Good luck with that bro.
It wouldn't be fight. It would be an arse kicking.
Fraser
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> Now why would that be? The KF guys that have taken on mma guys have either
>> lost because their KF didn't work, or have survived a little longer by using
>> other techs.
>
> What are these 'other techs'?
Chain punching is a good example. The poor stances and hand positions are the
foundation of those poor techs.
Arm-bar, choke, submitting on the ground?
> All of those techs have always been in 'kung fu'.
Not that I've noticed, and I've been noticing a long time. But hey, if one art
wants to integrate other stuff to complete it, props to them I say....but don't
say that it was there all along...attribute repsectfully, please! This has
*always* been the Gracies' stance and one that has been totally misconstrued.
They have never said 'drop your own art and do ours exclusively' (though many
have chosen to do exactly that). They have always maintained integration. Problem
is though, when foundations are contradictory, you gotta make a choice.
> And, by the way, let's define what you mean by 'kung fu'- it means 'hard work',
> so it covers everything from Kempo to Wu shu.
Well 'hard work' covers a lot of ground.
> And, decide which techniques, coming out of Japan, are 'mma' (as opposed to
> being 'kung fu' in Chinese), and which are not. Decide whether you're going to
> claim 'judo' or not, and why it's not 'kung fu' (when spoken in chinese).
> You can't just co-opt everything as 'mma', and ignore where it comes from
> ('kung fu' in Chinese).
Well I gotta say bud, you are the biggest co-opter here. Anything that works ends
up as 'good silat', right?
h...@nospam.com
>On Feb 23, 10:12 am, "Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>> "Renli" <usagi.mei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>My mistake. Let me rephrase. It is so difficult to explain anything to
>GDS because he isn't interested in an explanation, he just wants to
>give everyone he disagrees with an arse kicking.
Be careful, or Fraser will fall over you and end up on his face in the
sand and you will die laughing.
Hal
Matthew Weigel
> These clips are played to the public from within the MMA community as
> "evidence" that MMA or BJJ or whatever beats whatever art, 100% of the
> time.
The ones cited by the MMA community are... but you've pointed us toward a fair
number of videos too. Yet there's a different quality to the videos you post...
--
Matthew Weigel
hacker
unique & idempot.ent
Fraser Johnston
<h...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6qkst2p9kpb8f0d28...@4ax.com...
It would be worth falling over for if he did die.
Fraser
Chas
>> What are these 'other techs'?
> Chain punching is a good example. The poor stances and hand positions are
> the foundation of those poor techs.
I saw no chain punching- but all the other techs, on both sides, were
classic kung fu; kicks, punches, take-down, choke......
> Arm-bar, choke, submitting on the ground?
>> All of those techs have always been in 'kung fu'.
> Not that I've noticed, and I've been noticing a long time.
They're right there in every system I know of; judo, jujutsu, shuai chao,
MT/krabi-krabong.
You thought that the Gracies' invented the arm-bar? the choke? the
take-down? kicks and punches?
> But hey, if one art wants to integrate other stuff to complete it, props
> to them I say....but don't say that it was there all along...attribute
> repsectfully, please! This has *always* been the Gracies' stance and one
> that has been totally misconstrued.
Gracies do Japanese kung fu.
> Well 'hard work' covers a lot of ground.
Yes; although it doesn't seem to cover grappling, grasping, kicking,
punching, chokes, arm-bars, if we listen to you people anyway.
> Well I gotta say bud, you are the biggest co-opter here. Anything that
> works ends up as 'good silat', right?
Sure- but we tell you straight out that we'll steal anything that works-
haven't needed anything from bjj yet, but we'd never close the door.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> GDS because he isn't interested in an explanation, he just wants to
> give everyone he disagrees with an arse kicking.
Oh what bullshit. I disagree with plenty of people here, great people, wonderful
people, people I respect for their attitude, experience and know-how.
Disagreement is NOT disrepect.
What I don't like is bullshit claims, frauds and unprovoked personal attacks.
People like Hal, Wannabe and Wayne Dobson...and I'm hardly alone in that
assessment.
Your problem Ollie is that you come to impart your 'wisdom' not learn. That was
at the core of El Queso's beef with you. Though I will give you this, you have
matured a little.
In fact, I'd give you only an 8 on the Richman Scale right now.
Whether that's an insult or a compliment is up to you to decide....after you've
finished wringing out your towel quota, of course.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>>> What are these 'other techs'?
>> Chain punching is a good example. The poor stances and hand positions are the
>> foundation of those poor techs.
>
> I saw no chain punching- but all the other techs, on both sides, were classic
> kung fu; kicks, punches, take-down, choke......
They don't dare.
>> Arm-bar, choke, submitting on the ground?
>>> All of those techs have always been in 'kung fu'.
>> Not that I've noticed, and I've been noticing a long time.
>
> They're right there in every system I know of; judo, jujutsu, shuai chao,
> MT/krabi-krabong.
> You thought that the Gracies' invented the arm-bar? the choke? the take-down?
> kicks and punches?
Of course not, but they have refined many of those techniques, their application
and the transitions into them, one of the differentiators between GJJ and Judo &
JJJ.
>> But hey, if one art wants to integrate other stuff to complete it, props to
>> them I say....but don't say that it was there all along...attribute
>> repsectfully, please! This has *always* been the Gracies' stance and one that
>> has been totally misconstrued.
>
> Gracies do Japanese kung fu.
By definition that few would accept.
>> Well 'hard work' covers a lot of ground.
>
> Yes; although it doesn't seem to cover grappling, grasping, kicking, punching,
> chokes, arm-bars, if we listen to you people anyway.
Of course it does.
>> Well I gotta say bud, you are the biggest co-opter here. Anything that works
>> ends up as 'good silat', right?
>
> Sure- but we tell you straight out that we'll steal anything that works-
> haven't needed anything from bjj yet, but we'd never close the door.
Which is what sets you apart from a clown like Richman. But to make it
interesting, what *have* you integrated that wasn't there before?
Cheers
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> Ding!
> They want to claim bjj (out of kung fu),
Not so. JJJ, yes. Kosen Judo, perhaps.
want to claim Muay Thai (out of
> kung fu),
Not so. Muay Thai is considered by some to be a derivation of a general
indigenous martial art style native to Southeast Asia, no proof that it was Kung
Fu.
want to claim Sambo (out of kung fu)
Not so. Oshchepko learned Judo from Kano - no Kung Fu there.
There is no evidence that any of these arts have a basis in Kung Fu.
Sutemi
> Except that UFC rules prohibit what WC'ers do best; small bone attacks,
> headbutts, finger-jabs and eye-attacks, throat strikes, groin strikes,......
> How is it a 'fair test', when it obviously isn't fair?
> Should WC'ers re-train to comport to the rules?
> Would it still be WC, or a 'sport-compliant' hybrid?
As a Wing Chun guy who drifted away into BJJ, I'd have a lot to add
but I fear it wouldn't really illuminate the issue at hand. Consider
this instead: in the fat kid vs. body nazi clip on another thread,
neither player was doing anything prohibited by submission grappling
rules. Why couldn't fat kid go to Abu Dhabi and jam all takedown
attempts like he did in the demo? Would an escalation of aggression
and speed on the part of the grappler necessitate fat kid to access
techniques that would be against the rules? I can't believe that a
level playing field can't be created that could showcase any unique
qualities of Chinese martial arts. Eye attacks, throat strikes, groin
strikes etc. are specialties of Wing Chun, but they're not unique to
Wing Chun. I think what we all want to know is essentially this: Does
a Wing Chun training methodology produce a better throat strike than
just telling a fighter to "hit 'im in the throat", and if so, why?
Chas
> Of course not, but they have refined many of those techniques, their
> application and the transitions into them, one of the differentiators
> between GJJ and Judo & JJJ.
heh.
That could have been covered with one word- it's all Japanese based 'ju'
art.
And the competition is skewed towards their skills- and rightly so, they own
the hall.
>> Gracies do Japanese kung fu.
> By definition that few would accept.
You haven't even proposed a definition yet-
and if you were talking about the Gracies in China, 'kung fu' would be an
apt phrase/idiom. It's particularly apt as it's their only livlihood,
requires great effort and discipline- absolutely apt.
When you're talking about 'kung fu', do you lump anything from Asia in that
grouping? only Chinese systems? Northern, Southern, external, internal,
Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Confucian/ancestor-worshipper- only striking
styles, or includes grappling? sub-sets like qinna?
'Kung fu' is a word that marks one as a novice- anybody that actually did it
would have an imperative set of specifics. Nobody would call what they
claimed as lineage 'praying mantis kung fu'- they'd called it by its formal
name and say who they studied with.
>> Yes; although it doesn't seem to cover grappling, grasping, kicking,
>> punching, chokes, arm-bars, if we listen to you people anyway.
> Of course it does.
Then people are winning with kung fu every day.
I just watched Liddell again- in the Horn fight. He claims 'kick-boxing' and
Kempo; both are kung fu arts. He wrestled a bit; Horn is a bjj adept of some
repute.
If Liddell had never seen a grappler before, Horn's repeated efforts to
shoot might have been successful. But, he had- probably in kempo, certainly
when he brought his wrestling back to kempo.
Certainly hits like kung fu- not much like boxing, or even MT based
'kick-boxing'.
>> Sure- but we tell you straight out that we'll steal anything that works-
>> haven't needed anything from bjj yet, but we'd never close the door.
> Which is what sets you apart from a clown like Richman. But to make it
> interesting, what *have* you integrated that wasn't there before?
Nothing- but we're ready to if anything shows up that's interesting.
Victor used to sit on one of the jujutsu governing boards, competed in judo,
has some aikido- and that's on top of full-range silat fighting. He taught
out of Palumbo's Hakkorryu Jujutsu for a long time.
Willem grapples hard- full range of qinna skills, the whole jujutsu
curriculum- including 'small circle'.
Paul had the silat grappling as his primary art- kendang silat of Serak of
de Vries of Mas Djoet. He didn't strike by preference- he liked to hang you
on the edge of total paralysis and look in your eyes.
The only thing that's changed much at all from gjj is what's allowed in
competition- and you don't use silat in competition, unless you're prepared
to die or get maimed. It's a long established question between practitioners
on the Archipelago- conservatives believe you shouldn't mitigate the art (on
a religious level- the 'tulen pusaka' idea), and progressives that tout
something that looks like anybody else's kickboxing and light grappling;
schoolkid stuff.
Chas
Chas
>> They want to claim bjj (out of kung fu),
> Not so. JJJ, yes. Kosen Judo, perhaps.
'ju' at all- and you've switched languages twice; graciespeak, japanese,
chinese
> want to claim Muay Thai (out of
>> kung fu),
> Not so. Muay Thai is considered by some to be a derivation of a general
> indigenous martial art style native to Southeast Asia, no proof that it
> was Kung Fu.
It is if you speak of it in Chinese- and include the obvious influence of
Chinese art on SEAsian arts of all sorts.
What's the word for hard work in Portuguese?
> want to claim Sambo (out of kung fu)
> Not so. Oshchepko learned Judo from Kano - no Kung Fu there.
Indigenous Russian art is from Viking wrestling, a smattering of shuai chao,
and judo- which has a shuai chao basis as well. Japanese are just Koreans in
funny hats- you do know that, don't you?
> There is no evidence that any of these arts have a basis in Kung Fu.
You have a very restricted view of history- and not particularly
well-informed even then.
Everything you've cited so far has roots in Chinese martial art; and that's
not even to speak to the misuse of the word as regards Chinese art at all.
And the competition you speak of prohibits techniques, applications and
targets that Chinese practitioners *train* to do instinctively- no 'fair
test' at all. The competition is skewed towards the strengths that play well
as entertainment.
It's kind of a silly question all round, as framed by poorly informed
sports' fans.
Chas
Chas
>.....Why couldn't fat kid go to Abu Dhabi and jam all takedown
> attempts like he did in the demo?
Is that an offer to sponsor him?
> Would an escalation of aggression
> and speed on the part of the grappler necessitate fat kid to access
> techniques that would be against the rules?
If he fights instinctively- and that's how people train- he would have to
think about techniques and cast out those the rules prohibit.
In my own case, and that of the guys now preparing for competition; our
stance delivers headbutts automatically- I don't throw a head-butt, my step
guarantees one. If I'm going to avoid headbutting people in the cage, I've
got to retrain my whole stance.
Same with 'sang-sat'; a low strike/grab to the center of the body. I train
it as the most natural movement of the body in that situation. If I have to
stop, re-think the target, and choose another application, I'm not fighting
like I train to.
> I can't believe that a
> level playing field can't be created that could showcase any unique
> qualities of Chinese martial arts. Eye attacks, throat strikes, groin
> strikes etc. are specialties of Wing Chun, but they're not unique to
> Wing Chun.
One authorized by the Nevada State Boxing Commission?
> I think what we all want to know is essentially this: Does
> a Wing Chun training methodology produce a better throat strike than
> just telling a fighter to "hit 'im in the throat", and if so, why?
It's like anything else- if you specialize in something, you'll get good at
it.
Why did mma outlaw the WC skills; eye, throat, groin, fish-hooking- much
less things like kicks to the head on a downed opponent? knees to the body
but not the head? elbow strikes, but not spearing elbows? smothering,
trachea strikes, rabbit punches?
And don't tell me about Old Brazil and Vale Tudo- who heard of it? who went
thousands of miles to Brazil to compete? Who said groin strikes, eye-gouges,
kicks to the head, small-bone attacks and fish-hooking didn't work?
Chas
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
My friend, the history of these arts is available to all and I'm fully supported
by it. You may have a different take on history, your right to, but the martial
arts mentioned do not have Chinese roots. Some claim that all the arts can be
traced back to either Indian or Greek roots and I'm not inclined to disagree with
that.
What we don't disagree on however is that what is, is. An arm-bar is an arm-bar,
whether it was of Etruscan or Chinese derivation. Also understand that the
Gracies have the hugest respect for the history of the arts, particularly
Rickson. They openly acknowledge their debt to JJJ, as they should, given Maeda's
contribution, without which there would be no GJJ.
All they claim is to have functionalized it, and in this regard, the results
speak for themselves.
All the best, as ever
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> Of course not, but they have refined many of those techniques, their
>> application and the transitions into them, one of the differentiators between
>> GJJ and Judo & JJJ.
>
> heh.
> That could have been covered with one word- it's all Japanese based 'ju' art.
> And the competition is skewed towards their skills- and rightly so, they own
> the hall.
>
>>> Gracies do Japanese kung fu.
>> By definition that few would accept.
>
> You haven't even proposed a definition yet-
> and if you were talking about the Gracies in China, 'kung fu' would be an apt
> phrase/idiom. It's particularly apt as it's their only livlihood, requires
> great effort and discipline- absolutely apt.
> When you're talking about 'kung fu', do you lump anything from Asia in that
> grouping? only Chinese systems? Northern, Southern, external, internal,
> Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Confucian/ancestor-worshipper- only striking styles,
> or includes grappling? sub-sets like qinna?
> 'Kung fu' is a word that marks one as a novice- anybody that actually did it
> would have an imperative set of specifics. Nobody would call what they claimed
> as lineage 'praying mantis kung fu'- they'd called it by its formal name and
> say who they studied with.
When you apply such an all-encompassing definition, everything is Kung Fu. Few
would agree with that.
>>> Yes; although it doesn't seem to cover grappling, grasping, kicking,
>>> punching, chokes, arm-bars, if we listen to you people anyway.
>> Of course it does.
>
> Then people are winning with kung fu every day.
> I just watched Liddell again- in the Horn fight. He claims 'kick-boxing' and
> Kempo; both are kung fu arts. He wrestled a bit; Horn is a bjj adept of some
> repute.
> If Liddell had never seen a grappler before, Horn's repeated efforts to shoot
> might have been successful. But, he had- probably in kempo, certainly when he
> brought his wrestling back to kempo.
> Certainly hits like kung fu- not much like boxing, or even MT based
> 'kick-boxing'.
See above....
>>> Sure- but we tell you straight out that we'll steal anything that works-
>>> haven't needed anything from bjj yet, but we'd never close the door.
>> Which is what sets you apart from a clown like Richman. But to make it
>> interesting, what *have* you integrated that wasn't there before?
>
> Nothing-
clipped
Now I did ask that question with a mind that you'd say that.
Given the long history of the art and your involvement with it, I'd say the door
closed a long time ago.....
Matthew Weigel
>>> What is even more interesting is that
>>> preying mantis would be considered an evolution over five animals kung
>>> fu from a historical standpoint, so even this conclusion doesen't make
>>> sense. Jason also claims to practice and/or teach Tai Chi.
>> 100% of the kung fu people I've met face to face have been completely
>> wrong
>> about the history of kung fu - starting at the beginning, moving forward
>> to
>> the last 20 years. Are they all disqualified from representing the
>> fighting
>> techniques of kung fu?
>
> I don't know what a knowledge of history has to do with the ability to
> fight.
"What is even more interesting is... [snip Richman's attempt at a history
lesson]... This further undermines his credibility as a representative of Kung
Fu."
Matthew Weigel
> #1. Cung Le vs. Mike Altman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QdFcWOwOs
> Cung Le is a star Sanshou fighter (sanshou is kungfu in kickboxing
> ring). This is his debut fight in MMA against Mike Altman muaythai+BJJ
> based MMA fighter. The event is "Strike Force" 3/10/2006.
It may make you feel better to say "san shou is kungfu in kickboxing ring,"
but the competitions he was in were not. Those were "kickboxing with throws
and takedowns." (http://www.iska.com/kickboxing/rules.htm)
Cung Le is a great example of kung fu; let's take a look at the classes at his
gym:
http://gym.cungle.com/sv/html/website/WebSite_7/m_main.jsp?&page=classes.html&id=7
Wait... the closest thing to kung fu listed there is "San Shou and MMA
Training," where "[i]nstruction focuses on thai pad training, parrying drills,
boxing, takedown drills, wrestling, Muay Thai, MMA (mixed martial arts),
ground and pound, positioning, escapes, BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu), and sparring."
I'm looking for the kung fu connection, beyond the rule set's name... got any
suggestions for where I can find it? I mean, he doesn't accidentally say
something to discredit his kung fu credentials like "five animals, including
mantis," but I haven't seen him do or say anything that indicates *any* kung
fu credentials.
I guess this just supports my observation: you think it's kung fu if he wins.
> There's not much to say, GDS. Watch the clip. Oh yeah- Where's the
> BJJ?
"Cung Le has made a tremendous impact on martial arts and continues to expand
his arsenal of tools with the addition of Jujitsu training."
(http://www.cungle.com/sv/html/website/WebSite_6/m_main.jsp?&page=biography.html&id=6)
> #4. Brad Burrick highlight reel #1:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP2vCeo9Qw4
> Clips of Brad Burrick's kung fu in the ring.
This Brad Burrick? http://badbrad.roninservices.net/biobrad.html
Kung fu? Or full contact karate + submission grappling who happens to like
san shou rules?
> #5. BJJ versus Jeet Kune Do: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIxnUIB5TzI
> Interesting what goes on in a grappler's mind when he realises his
> worst fears: he's fighting a striker who can grapple.
"No sweat"? I'm not seeing the challenge that the JKD/San Shou guy presented.
(BTW, is JKD "kung fu" now? Is that because the words "San Shou" show up?)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel1-hIO_dc
> #6. Tai Chi vs. Takedown Attacks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel1-hIO_dc
> A video which shows tai chi sparring methods designed to be used in a
> no holds barred octagon or UFC deathmatch. This shows honesty on the
> part of the Taiji player, he is attempting to learn the grappler's
> game. NOTE: The attacker has an extensive background in Wresting, BJJ,
> and Sambo. He competed on the Wrestling National team in the 90s. He
> has worked as a bodyguard to the stars such as Lennox Lewis and Sean
> (P.Diddy) Combs.
I thought just a few posts ago you were talking about how you didn't really
believe the claims in youtube videos about who the people were? Why should we
believe this one? Because *you* say so?
(btw- not a fighting situation)
[snip more not-fighting]
Wayne Dobson
news:12tt1hk...@news.supernews.com...
They teach extensive history lessons in all credible forms of Kung Fu?
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Wayne Dobson
"Sutemi" <ericro...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1172206324.2...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
What Chas said. You don't do what you're told or tell yourself you're going
to do. You do what you've trained to do. They are quite a few examples of
people, here, who's supposed training didn't do what they expected it to do,
reason being, they never trained it - they trained one thing, then got told
by some naive instructor that if this happened outside of the ring, they
should do something else. It doesn't work.
I've told an anecdote about a training partner, who started to become
aggressive in training, in an attempt to inject realism into the sparring.
I asked him to tone it down in the interests of safety - he thought I meant
mine. He ignored me. What I've trained myself to do wouldn't sit well in
the ring and I find that it does take some conscious effort to vet
techniques on the fly, and as a result, it slows me down.
This guy finally managed to alarm me by attacking too fast, with some sort
of intent. The first thing I did was stick my fingers deep into his eyes,
not of my own volition. I didn't see more than a blur. The only thing that
really informed me of what was happening was a squidgy feeling on my
finger-tips. It stopped him in his tracks - obviously not a BJJer.
Seriously, if rule-based fighting is not trained from the ground up, it's
difficult to observe rules under pressure.
Wayne Dobson
news:zasDh.2411$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Sure- but we tell you straight out that we'll steal anything that works-
haven't needed anything from bjj yet, but we'd never close the door."
Hahaha... What you've got ain't worth stealing.
Wayne Dobson
> On Feb 23, 7:43 pm, "Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote:
>
>> They teach extensive history lessons in all credible forms of Kung Fu?
>
I don't know. Well, do they?
xiaou2
>
> He's trying to survive. He has no answer to what has been put in front
> of him, which answers your question of 'Where's the Kung Fu?" You get
> it now? There's no Kung Fu because he never gets a chance to do it,
> he's forced into attempting to grapple. That's the whole point - to
> beat it, you've got to do it. Where's Rickson's Kung Fu?
Lack of skill in a fighter does not indicate that arts potential.
Its his failing within the system.
Ive seen this clown suposedly fight with KungFu. It was a train
wreck. Not even Close to correct. Not grounded at all.
Poor ballance. Poor gaurd. And much more. Basically,
He was pathetic as hell.
The guy clearly lacks any real foundations... and theres little
the guy is going to be able to make work without that.
Ive fought many people who claimed to have studided this
and that.. and it all went down the drain in a sparring
match. Not because thier techniques were invalid... but
because they lacked the self discipline to perfect them
under combat stresses. So then they resort to 'slop'.
Ive also played with True artists.. whos techniques
were pure and easily seen. They had the disipline..
and even under high speed combat stresses...
were able to hold crisp powerfull techniques, that really worked.
These rare few, were nearly untouchable. If
you even got a hit, it was a mere graze... and then they
returned it with a heavy power blast sending you flying.
Matthew Weigel
> Hey. He said he did san shou. *shrug* sanshou is a kung fu term.
It's also a full-contact kickboxing sport's term.
> So he
> *said* he did it. Who am I gonna believe - the guy with the sash or
> some guy who laughed at my suggestion then quietly implemented it when
> no one was looking?
Now what are you on about? Is this some FAQ thing again?
>> I guess this just supports my observation: you think it's kung fu if he wins.
>
> Welcome to the other side of the coin - it's kung fu if he loses, too,
> right? Huh?
I'm sorry, I was trying to apply your standards from the first post:
"attempting a technique out of aggression" means he's not doing kung fu.
Getting the history wrong, and mixing "five animals" with "mantis" means he's
not doing kung fu.
It seems logical that "doing MMA training exclusively" is... not kung fu.
>> This Brad Burrick? http://badbrad.roninservices.net/biobrad.html
>
> *shrug* he said he did kung fu.
Where?
> How is it that when they win its
> because of their mma (brad burrick, cung le) and when they lose its
> because of their kung fu (jason delucia)?
Cung Le: teaches MMA courses, but likes san shou rules.
Brad Burrick: has a black belt in karate, but says he likes san shou rules.
Jason Delucia: OK, his site isn't nearly as clear, readable, or sane as the
other two.
> It's not an anonymous stab in
> the dark with two fifteen year olds rolling around in their catholic
> school uniforms in the highschool gym.
OK, that's just creepy.
> Still waiting for the "real" mma vs kung fu clips - i haven't yet seen
> a single one.
This goes back to the MMA community controlling YouTube, right?
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> Masahiko Kimura hit the makiwara over 500 times a day.
He did no such thing. Shigeru Kimura, the karateka did that, not Masahiko.
>Why is it different when a judo guy does it?
It's different because he didn't do it.
Tell me Oliver.......honestly....until you read this thread, you'd never heard of
Masahiko Kimura, had you?
He was a judoka and JJJ master, perhaps the best that's ever been.
You can't say you made a mistake and meant Shigeru the karateka, because you
thought you were making a point about a judoka's practice.
So let me go back to my last post......
"Your problem Ollie is that you come to impart your 'wisdom' not learn".
QED
9/10 on the Richman scale, for a reply unveiling arrogance surpassed only by its
ignorance.
Chas
> When you apply such an all-encompassing definition, everything is Kung Fu.
> Few would agree with that.
Everything self-described as 'hard work' is 'kung fu'.
The point is not that it means 'everything'- it's that it's so generic as to
mean nothing when you use it to describe anything you don't like.
Chinese martial arts are not, correctly, called 'kung fu'- that's a legacy
of the tv show by the same name. It's not correct to call them all
'shaolin', they're not. They're not all 'chuan fa'; they're not all
'taoist'/buddhist or confucian; they're not all 'wu shu'. They're not all
'external' or 'internal' or 'combined attitude'.
It's just all too big for that.
> Given the long history of the art and your involvement with it, I'd say
> the door closed a long time ago.....
No- I'm simply not good enough to add stuff.
Paul de Thouars changed the djurus to accommodate larger and more upright
Westerners- we have 'old djurus' and 'new djurus' (I practice them both).
We changed from the 'tenjekan' attitude of Pak Serak, to the defensive
attitude of Mas Djoet, modified it with the return to tenjekan by Mas Roen,
and the modernization by Djaka Marjoeki.
The door is by no means closed- and even moreso 'open' in the 'bela diri'
system than in the 'kendang' system.
That's the trap of wanting to have sound bites and simple statements-
without information particularly.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
news:xEBDh.5930$I46....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Wayne, meet Oliver Richman......
Wayne, you may very well regret asking Oliver anything.... the replies will be as
tedious as they erroneous.
Oliver, you may well regret doing Wayne's research for him....he's not really
interested in the answers.
Chas
> My friend, the history of these arts is available to all and I'm fully
> supported by it. You may have a different take on history, your right to,
> but the martial arts mentioned do not have Chinese roots. Some claim that
> all the arts can be traced back to either Indian or Greek roots and I'm
> not inclined to disagree with that.
Well, you're up to twenty-five hundred years ago-
thought about 'lately' at all?
> All they claim is to have functionalized it, and in this regard, the
> results speak for themselves.
I love the tv shows.
The only 'functionalization' is their contribution to entertainment.
Best wishes-
Chas
Wayne Dobson
> "Renli" <usagi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Oh what bullshit. I disagree with plenty of people here, great people,
> wonderful people, people I respect for their attitude, experience and
> know-how. Disagreement is NOT disrepect.
>
> What I don't like is bullshit claims, frauds and unprovoked personal
> attacks. People like Hal, Wannabe and Wayne Dobson...and I'm hardly alone
> in that assessment.
"Unprovoked personal attacks" Ha...haha...hahaha... That's actually funny.
There's nothing like a sound asswhopping to make the most hardened thug
renounce violence.
Chas
>> Hey. He said he did san shou. *shrug* sanshou is a kung fu term.
> It's also a full-contact kickboxing sport's term.
Geez; show some semantic rigor.
Why do you think they call 'full-contact kickboxing sport' 'sanshou'?
It's the traditional 'kung fu' name- if you're going to misuse foreign
language terms, do it with some small consistency.
> I'm sorry, I was trying to apply your standards from the first post:
> "attempting a technique out of aggression" means he's not doing kung fu.
I disagree with that one- I think the one thing that bjj-entertainment has
brought us is a return to aggressiveness, as contrasted with the 'reactive'
mind-set of many Westerners.
> Getting the history wrong, and mixing "five animals" with "mantis" means
> he's
> not doing kung fu.
Yeah; it kinda does- what if some guy said he did bjj, spoke of
accomplishing an 'omeletplata'. Wouldn't you recognize instantly that he
hadn't had enough exposure to the art to learn the right name for his
technique?
How about a Chinese practitioner that showed up with arm scars, a series of
aphorisms from 'Rosten's Treasury of Jewish Quotations' (the source book for
much of 'Kung Fu' the tv show), and a respect for David Carradine- would you
think him a legitimate practitioner?
> It seems logical that "doing MMA training exclusively" is... not kung fu.
Actually, we've not yet seen anything that 'mma' brings to the table. The
techniques are all found in classical martial art- the only thing changed is
the entertainment. MMA is sanctioned by Boxing Commissions- because they
diluted the available techniques/applications/targets, mandated armor and a
referee.
Wayne Dobson
I think you forgot something. You forgot to call me a fuckwit. What's up,
didn't you get much sleep last night? Hahaha...
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> When you apply such an all-encompassing definition, everything is Kung Fu. Few
>> would agree with that.
>
> Everything self-described as 'hard work' is 'kung fu'.
The literal translation is 'achievement through effort', but the common usage
refers to many/all chinese martial arts.
> The point is not that it means 'everything'- it's that it's so generic as to
> mean nothing when you use it to describe anything you don't like.
> Chinese martial arts are not, correctly, called 'kung fu'- that's a legacy of
> the tv show by the same name. It's not correct to call them all 'shaolin',
> they're not. They're not all 'chuan fa'; they're not all 'taoist'/buddhist or
> confucian; they're not all 'wu shu'. They're not all 'external' or 'internal'
> or 'combined attitude'.
> It's just all too big for that.
Kung Fu has always been a generic term, these arts were never an integrated
whole.
>> Given the long history of the art and your involvement with it, I'd say the
>> door closed a long time ago.....
>
> No- I'm simply not good enough to add stuff.
Well there's a limit to everyone's ingenuity..:)
> Paul de Thouars changed the djurus to accommodate larger and more upright
> Westerners- we have 'old djurus' and 'new djurus' (I practice them both).
> We changed from the 'tenjekan' attitude of Pak Serak, to the defensive attitude
> of Mas Djoet, modified it with the return to tenjekan by Mas Roen, and the
> modernization by Djaka Marjoeki.
> The door is by no means closed- and even moreso 'open' in the 'bela diri'
> system than in the 'kendang' system.
So *someone* has integrated new stuff? I wasn't particularly talking about what
*you* personally may have added, rather the art as a whole. So in plain english,
what was the new stuff?
> That's the trap of wanting to have sound bites and simple statements- without
> information particularly.
Indeed.. That's all many have to base their opinions upon. Shame, that.....
Chas
> You're right. Disrespect is when you ignore an honest question and
> make fun of the analogy used to make a point.
No; that's 'intellectual dishonesty'.
Disrespect is denigrating a point because of its messenger, rather than its
validity.
It's pretty consistent that when they have no reasoned point, they retreat
into quips, bons mot and gutterspeak.
>> Your problem Ollie is that you come to impart your 'wisdom' not learn.
>> That was
>> at the core of El Queso's beef with you. Though I will give you this, you
>> have
>> matured a little.
Queso was a shallow chump with little to say of any import whatsoever.
> Your problem is that you find a need to challenge everything I say
> about Qi.
Bingo-
Obdurate skepticism is an intellectual affectation.
You have to understand that they're admission of a single exception to their
worldview would make their brains boil out of their ears like oatmeal.
That's why they're so rabid about it, it's a tenuous cosmology at best.
You might say that they want Occam's Razor to only cut in one direction.
> Masahiko Kimura hit the makiwara over 500 times a day. Why is it
> different when a judo guy does it?
Because they heard of judo before-
the rest of the world is somewhat a mystery to them.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> My friend, the history of these arts is available to all and I'm fully
>> supported by it. You may have a different take on history, your right to, but
>> the martial arts mentioned do not have Chinese roots. Some claim that all the
>> arts can be traced back to either Indian or Greek roots and I'm not inclined
>> to disagree with that.
>
> Well, you're up to twenty-five hundred years ago-
> thought about 'lately' at all?
Is ~560BC for Pankration old enough? That's many scholars' best bet for the first
organized ma.The Egyptians might pre-date that if you're into vases. The Indians'
ma might be even older than that. The earliest Chinese ma is ~80BC iirc.
>> All they claim is to have functionalized it, and in this regard, the results
>> speak for themselves.
>
> I love the tv shows.
> The only 'functionalization' is their contribution to entertainment.
Well, Vale Tudo pre-dates TV....and let's not forget the 'Kung Fu' TV series for
'contribution to entertainment' value.
> Best wishes-
> Chas
Likewise, sir.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
Whatever you say, Batman.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
I'll think you'll find that's Chas' quote, dullard.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
clipped
> I think you forgot something. You forgot to call me a fuckwit.
Nah, I didn't forget...but everyone knows now so it's hardly news, is it?
>What's up, didn't you get much sleep last night? Hahaha...
Correct! Your mother couldn't get enough. <yawn>
Chas
>> Everything self-described as 'hard work' is 'kung fu'.
> The literal translation is 'achievement through effort', but the common
> usage refers to many/all chinese martial arts.
Only in the most generic way-
unless you're presenting that all Chinese arts are worthless, frauds,
illusionists, cowards or duffers.
> Kung Fu has always been a generic term, these arts were never an
> integrated whole.
Sure they were- just as the Japanese subsumed a number of studies under the
rubric of 'bujutsu'. There's kind of a basic curriculum in Chinese arts- and
one may continue to specialize in more focused concepts- its a much more
diverse culture than the Japanese.
> So *someone* has integrated new stuff?
Yeah; the lineage holder- the guy that knows more about the system than
anyone else.
The impetus for change was moving the system 8,000 miles and to a whole new
'physique'/culture than at home.
> I wasn't particularly talking about what *you* personally may have added,
> rather the art as a whole. So in plain english, what was the new stuff?
Working taller; shifting the first emphasis from dealing with a low/long
range attack to a higher/punching attack.
> Indeed.. That's all many have to base their opinions upon. Shame,
> that.....
It is; I always counsel personal experience- at the very least, giving some
credence to reports by men of good character.
Chas
> Is ~560BC for Pankration old enough? That's many scholars' best bet for
> the first organized ma.
Ignoring that, at the very least, Gautama Siddhartha was from a hereditary
clan of warriors- who do you think Alexander showed up to fight with? Their
history claims some 26,000 years, ims.
I don't know what you think you mean by 'organized', nor who's archaeology
you're using.
For instance, humans on Indonesia go back over a million years, and some
martial arts' have a 38,000 year oral history- same as your aborigines. An
interesting aside is that some of them were only contacted within the last
150 years or so, and their arts haven't changed much since that contact with
'outside'. It's my own belief that the indo-art 'kembaggan' is maybe the
oldest martial art available pretty much unchanged since antiquity- a
personal opinion.
< The Egyptians might pre-date that if you're into vases. The Indians'
> ma might be even older than that. The earliest Chinese ma is ~80BC iirc.
I can live with just looking at the last 2,000 years or so <g>
You know, as the Chinese colonized Japan, displacing the Ainu; imposing
their arts/skills on the area.
Taiji only goes back to the mid-seventeenth century as 'organized', but the
skill concept 'Loose Boxing' is 11th century as a recognized system, and
must be earlier than that by inference.
Same with 'shuai chao'- 'Altaics' (like Mongols) have been wrestling since
Hector was a Lance Corporal- and their influence went West as well as East.
(I think I'm using 'altaic' right, but can stand corrected with the proper
name)
>> I love the tv shows.
>> The only 'functionalization' is their contribution to entertainment.
> Well, Vale Tudo pre-dates TV....
And included all the 'kung fu' moves that are now prohibited. Even that
first Gracie, the 'good silat' one, used all kindsa kung fu; knees, elbows,
hair-pulling, smothering, rabbit-punches, headbutts.
I miss him; a true 'kungfu'er'.
> and let's not forget the 'Kung Fu' TV series for 'contribution to
> entertainment' value.
Oh DAWG!
I've despised David Carradine for thirty+ years and more- met him, and he's
everything I thought and worse. He's creepy faggy hollyweird pretense
second-generation 'b' grade thespiac.
No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
Mike
> everything I thought and worse. He's creepy faggy hollyweird pretense
> second-generation 'b' grade thespiac.
> No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
What's the story on his brother?
-Mike K.
Chas
>> No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
> What's the story on his brother?
Outdoorsman, athlete- active and intelligent. He plays cowboy roles well and
seems to be a nice guy.
I've particularly enjoyed him lately hosting 'Wild West Tech' on the History
Channel- but he's had some good parts over the years.
David is just creepy, and it's always been his reputation. He's particularly
bad as hosting 'Wild West Tech' on the History Channel.
I'm a bit of a buff on that period of history, and both David and his
writers are Leftcoast cityass poseurs.
Ubercreepy in 'Kill Bill'- even with a great movie to try and carry him.
Chas
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> Is ~560BC for Pankration old enough? That's many scholars' best bet for the
>> first organized ma.
>
> Ignoring that,
Well you can't actually ignore it, but let's move on.....
at the very least, Gautama Siddhartha was from a hereditary
> clan of warriors- who do you think Alexander showed up to fight with? Their
> history claims some 26,000 years, ims.
Having a history is quite a different matter.
> I don't know what you think you mean by 'organized', nor who's archaeology
> you're using.
The Egyptians have the first recorded history of ma by virtue of the paintings on
the Beni-Hasan wall and other artifacts such as the sculptures of Diebel. The
Greeks' pankration seems to be the only fully documented fighting form in the
pre-Christian era
> For instance, humans on Indonesia go back over a million years, and some
> martial arts' have a 38,000 year oral history- same as your aborigines.
As I said above, having a history is different. The Australian aborigines seem to
have been around about 40,000 years but no record of ma. There's no 38,000 year
'oral history' preserved in any culture to the best of my knowledge or any ma
historian I've ever run across.
An
> interesting aside is that some of them were only contacted within the last 150
> years or so, and their arts haven't changed much since that contact with
> 'outside'. It's my own belief that the indo-art 'kembaggan' is maybe the oldest
> martial art available pretty much unchanged since antiquity- a personal
> opinion.
>
> < The Egyptians might pre-date that if you're into vases. The Indians'
>> ma might be even older than that. The earliest Chinese ma is ~80BC iirc.
>
> I can live with just looking at the last 2,000 years or so <g>
Yeah, me too. My only point with this is that China is not the root of all
martial arts.
> You know, as the Chinese colonized Japan, displacing the Ainu; imposing their
> arts/skills on the area.
Yeah, butthey had their own quite independent of that.
> Taiji only goes back to the mid-seventeenth century as 'organized', but the
> skill concept 'Loose Boxing' is 11th century as a recognized system, and must
> be earlier than that by inference.
> Same with 'shuai chao'- 'Altaics' (like Mongols) have been wrestling since
> Hector was a Lance Corporal- and their influence went West as well as East. (I
> think I'm using 'altaic' right, but can stand corrected with the proper name)
The only way we know it's organized is from what we see on ancient frescos,
vases, walls etc.
>>> I love the tv shows.
>>> The only 'functionalization' is their contribution to entertainment.
>> Well, Vale Tudo pre-dates TV....
>
> And included all the 'kung fu' moves that are now prohibited. Even that first
> Gracie, the 'good silat' one, used all kindsa kung fu; knees, elbows,
> hair-pulling, smothering, rabbit-punches, headbutts.
> I miss him; a true 'kungfu'er'.
Me too, but I don't think he'd appreciate the KF connection ;>)
>> and let's not forget the 'Kung Fu' TV series for 'contribution to
>> entertainment' value.
>
> Oh DAWG!
> I've despised David Carradine for thirty+ years and more- met him, and he's
> everything I thought and worse. He's creepy faggy hollyweird pretense
> second-generation 'b' grade thespiac.
The series brought KF to the public consciousness, for better or for worse. I
liked it as a kid..but then again, I liked pro wrestling, too :)
> No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
Was he a basket-case too?
Chas
>.....Their
>> history claims some 26,000 years, ims.
> Having a history is quite a different matter.
Having it in English even better, hunh?
>> For instance, humans on Indonesia go back over a million years, and some
>> martial arts' have a 38,000 year oral history- same as your aborigines.
> As I said above, having a history is different.
Ok, you've said that twice; what do you mean?
Do you think they don't have a history?
> The Australian aborigines seem to have been around about 40,000 years but
> no record of ma. There's no 38,000 year 'oral history' preserved in any
> culture to the best of my knowledge or any ma historian I've ever run
> across.
How many of them have connected to the indigenous people in the Archipelago?
They've been there for a million and a half years- at war for much of that.
How can they 'not' have-a-history?
> Yeah, me too. My only point with this is that China is not the root of all
> martial arts.
Sure is the absolute major influence for the last several centuries- and
certainly the base for judo, jujutsu, muay thai, modern sport
kick-boxing,.....
>> You know, as the Chinese colonized Japan, displacing the Ainu; imposing
>> their arts/skills on the area.
> Yeah, butthey had their own quite independent of that.
only as sub-sets of the (both) Chinese and Malay arts (through the island
chain and across the strait from the Mainland). That's why their weapons are
the same; their unarmed systems are derivative, their social arts; painting,
calligraphy, ceramics, ironwork,....
> The only way we know it's organized is from what we see on ancient
> frescos, vases, walls etc.
that probably gives a misleading directive- the surviving material is more
dependent on the weather than anything else. We tend to denigrate cultures
that don't have surviving artifacts to 'prove' a point. We did it with the
Vikings- they built in wood, and little survives; but we know they
taught/learned and practiced fighting skills in spite of the dearth of
artifactural material.
The 'Pankration' guys tried to revive the art by looking at pictures- we
have little idea what they actually did; same with Egyptians.
>> And included all the 'kung fu' moves that are now prohibited. Even that
>> first Gracie, the 'good silat' one, used all kindsa kung fu; knees,
>> elbows, hair-pulling, smothering, rabbit-punches, headbutts.
>> I miss him; a true 'kungfu'er'.
> Me too, but I don't think he'd appreciate the KF connection ;>)
He thinks he made it up himself?
>> No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
> Was he a basket-case too?
No; he seems a 'regular' fellow- the only one of the three brothers to be
anywhere near normal. Their Dad, John, was a very bizarre man as well. The
boys were Malibubabies, but John was a second-tier movie star; a career of
bad movies and strange roles. They were always sort of 'below' the big movie
stars' kids, and resented it very obviously- David in particular.
Chas
Matthew Weigel
> Why don't you just make a statement which answers the question and
> we'll go from there.
"The question"? I wasn't responding to a question, but your statement
> Still waiting for the "real" mma vs kung fu clips - i haven't yet seen
> a single one.
I'm trying to figure out how that's the MMA community's fault. If I got it
wrong, please correct me.
Sutemi
> "Sutemi" <ericroess...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
> >.....Why couldn't fat kid go to Abu Dhabi and jam all takedown
> > attempts like he did in the demo?
>
> Is that an offer to sponsor him?
<sigh> No Chas. It's not an offer to sponser him. I'm speaking to the
argument that no method of evaluating the unique qualities of Taiji
doesn't slant the field away from the Taiji practitioner. In the demo,
fat kid and body nazi displayed nothing that would be disallowed in a
straight up grappling format. I mentioned Abu Dhabi because everyone
here knows what it is, what they do there and the level of talent that
goes there. Both of the dogs in this fight are mine Chas, and I'm just
trying to get to some kind of answer.
> > I can't believe that a
> > level playing field can't be created that could showcase any unique
> > qualities of Chinese martial arts. Eye attacks, throat strikes, groin
> > strikes etc. are specialties of Wing Chun, but they're not unique to
> > Wing Chun.
>
> One authorized by the Nevada State Boxing Commission?
I'm tired to puking of hearing the "too deadly for competition"
argument. My perspective is ruined because *I trained in some of this
stuff* and it doesn't feel special to me. I don't *know* if I'm doing
something anyone else could have learned from wrestling. That's why I
was so enthused by the fatkid/bodynazi video, because they seem to
have found a way of limiting variables in a way that allowed fat kid
to demonstrate a possibly unique and extraordinary facet of his
skillset without injuring the uke.
The pesistant implication is that there is some special attributes
imparted by certain "traditional" (and I use that word grudingly
because it's become imbued with distastefully unspecific connotations)
training methods that are impossible to easily define because they are
apparently inseperably intertwined with fucking deadly-ass techniques
that would leave an opponent an eyeless, skinless, throatcrushed,
twitching, praying-for-death, soon-to-be corpse. I'm not satisfied
that that's the case. Everyone here seems to have a vested interest in
one or the other side. I have a vested interest in both.
You spoke more than once of the eleven year old daughter of a Taiji
master who split a solid wood door. Solid wood doors have physical
attributes. It takes a certain specific amount of force to split one.
If you hook some pressure transducers up to a heavy bag and let that
little girl take a few shots at it, you'd have some incontraverable
data. I don't care whether the power comes from chi, body mechanics,
or Gaea the earth mother. Yet there is no data. None.
On one hand, there's tons of anecdotal evidence that this stuff is out
there. Tons of inconclusive video of Erle and fatkid and others doing
things that, if proven real, would have every MMA advocate on this
board lining up to get a piece of it. On the other hand, you have ten
times as many tons of real fight footage of highly conditioned
athletes beating self-styled masters of "traditional" martial arts
like they were children. Please tell me you understand the scepicism.
Don't you realize that every MMA person on this board at some point
watched "Kung Fu" on the tube as a kid and was enchanted? That their
hostility toward Kung Fu may be the commingling of the tantalizing
hope and crushing disappointment that it just might be real and
attainable? That's where I'm at. I've felt hints of things
extraordinary, but there was no DeTouars brother or Chen master or
fucking Yoda to tell this blind man if he just felt the elephants
trunk or it's asshole. I want to know, and any impediment to knowing
pisses me off.
I don't care who'd "win in a fight on the str33t". I want to know what
they've got. How they got it. Can I get it? Can I use it? Telling me
or anyone else to "Step up" is telling me nothing at all. If some
Silat guy hits me and it feels like my soul left my body, that tells
me nothing at all because if an olympic wrestler slams me, it'll feel
exactly the same way.
god...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> "Renli" <usagi.mei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> You can understand all this, can't you? It's very simple. KF vs mma/Bjj and KF
> loses. So far, no exceptions. If the KF guys are no good, whose fault is that?
Korn Fried?
Calling the Martial Art by the name of the contest means that whoever
wins even if they are "Korn Fried." is doing the martial art.
There is little doubt that pure "grappling" doesn't work in current
UFC styled events like it used to. The "Big Jersied Jerks" you are
refering to don't win the big sports contest unless they get to learn
the basics in at least five more sports systems. So why should KF be
any different if people have geniune Kung Fu credentials in their
background doesn't winning a UFC or "MMA" sport qualify it as Kung Fu
winning. After all we can prove that Kung Fu has strikes throws,
chokes armbars - you know the stuff winning these contest!
> And given these simple, incontrovertible facts, who has the "overhyped bullshit
> presented as facts"?
Score one for them this time.....
Anyway I guess a couple of those tapes show KF/MMA guys beating MT/MMA
or BJJ/MMA guys
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>>.....Their
>>> history claims some 26,000 years, ims.
>> Having a history is quite a different matter.
>
> Having it in English even better, hunh?
Only if english-speakers want to understand it easily.
>>> For instance, humans on Indonesia go back over a million years, and some
>>> martial arts' have a 38,000 year oral history- same as your aborigines.
>> As I said above, having a history is different.
>
> Ok, you've said that twice; what do you mean?
> Do you think they don't have a history?
Yes they have a history, but having an ancient history doesn't necessarily mean
they have a ma history.
>> The Australian aborigines seem to have been around about 40,000 years but no
>> record of ma. There's no 38,000 year 'oral history' preserved in any culture
>> to the best of my knowledge or any ma historian I've ever run across.
>
> How many of them have connected to the indigenous people in the Archipelago?
Dunno, none probably, but if they did, er, so what? Tribes of the Archipelago had
an ma history so if they have a physical connect you see that as relevant? I
don't. Australian aborigines had no ma history other than hitting each other with
big sticks. If that's your definition, maybe they had kung fu, too, as making big
sticks requires some effort.
> They've been there for a million and a half years- at war for much of that. How
> can they 'not' have-a-history?
You're assuming every culture has had a ma? Not so, buddy, unless you wish to
invoke a definition so broad it includes anyone who ever threw a rock or a punch.
>> Yeah, me too. My only point with this is that China is not the root of all
>> martial arts.
>
> Sure is the absolute major influence for the last several centuries- and
> certainly the base for judo, jujutsu, muay thai, modern sport kick-boxing,.....
Well Chas, you can ignore the history and use your own I suppose, but go to
Thailand sometime and tell the Thais this and they'll laugh at you. The Japs had
their own arts, independent of the Chinese, it's all there in the history books.
>>> You know, as the Chinese colonized Japan, displacing the Ainu; imposing their
>>> arts/skills on the area.
>> Yeah, butthey had their own quite independent of that.
>
> only as sub-sets of the (both) Chinese and Malay arts (through the island chain
> and across the strait from the Mainland).
Where do you get this from? I'm no expert on Malay culture, but the history of
Japanese ma's simply does not support this. Find me a cite that makes this claim
definitively. I can quote you numerous ones that say otherwise.
That's why their weapons are
> the same; their unarmed systems are derivative, their social arts; painting,
> calligraphy, ceramics, ironwork,....
The Japs don't see it this way, and are in fact deeply insulted if you tell them
that all of what you mention in their culture is derived from the Chinese. It's
not.
>> The only way we know it's organized is from what we see on ancient frescos,
>> vases, walls etc.
>
> that probably gives a misleading directive- the surviving material is more
> dependent on the weather than anything else. We tend to denigrate cultures that
> don't have surviving artifacts to 'prove' a point. We did it with the Vikings-
> they built in wood, and little survives; but we know they taught/learned and
> practiced fighting skills in spite of the dearth of artifactural material.
So when they leave no evidence, you conclude Viking wrestling. When there is
evidence, it's misleading. Hmmm. We can see plenty of familiar grappling techs by
looking at the artifacts such as vases and frescos. We can only surmise that
Vikings had this or that, other than what few artifacts they left. Oral cultures
generally suck. Being pre-historic by definition, they don't leave much of a
legacy. DNA might be good for tracing people-history but not much more.
> The 'Pankration' guys tried to revive the art by looking at pictures- we have
> little idea what they actually did; same with Egyptians.
Actually, we have a very good idea...they left written and drawn records. The
Vikings didn't.
>>> And included all the 'kung fu' moves that are now prohibited. Even that first
>>> Gracie, the 'good silat' one, used all kindsa kung fu; knees, elbows,
>>> hair-pulling, smothering, rabbit-punches, headbutts.
>>> I miss him; a true 'kungfu'er'.
>> Me too, but I don't think he'd appreciate the KF connection ;>)
>
> He thinks he made it up himself?
No, he just wouldn't accept the all-too-broad definition.
>>> No such thoughts on his brother, Keith-
>> Was he a basket-case too?
>
> No; he seems a 'regular' fellow- the only one of the three brothers to be
> anywhere near normal. Their Dad, John, was a very bizarre man as well. The boys
> were Malibubabies, but John was a second-tier movie star; a career of bad
> movies and strange roles. They were always sort of 'below' the big movie stars'
> kids, and resented it very obviously- David in particular.
Being a big movie start ain't all it's cracked up to be, when you look at how
many train-wreck humans it creates.
Chas
>> >.....Why couldn't fat kid go to Abu Dhabi and jam all takedown
>> > attempts like he did in the demo?
>> Is that an offer to sponsor him?
> <sigh> No Chas. It's not an offer to sponser him.
It's your game- you're looking for competitors-
> I'm speaking to the
> argument that no method of evaluating the unique qualities of Taiji
> doesn't slant the field away from the Taiji practitioner.
Taiji has it's own games-
what has your game got that is attractive to them?
> In the demo,
> fat kid and body nazi displayed nothing that would be disallowed in a
> straight up grappling format.
And, in a controlled demonstration context, the fat kid used applications
that were tailored to the question.
> I mentioned Abu Dhabi because everyone
> here knows what it is, what they do there and the level of talent that
> goes there. Both of the dogs in this fight are mine Chas, and I'm just
> trying to get to some kind of answer.
The answer is that it's your game- guys who play it, like it; guys who
don't, don't.
> I'm tired to puking of hearing the "too deadly for competition"
> argument.
Interesting.
Then why all the prohibitions on techniques, applications and targets?
If you want to test fighting skills, why all the limitations?
> My perspective is ruined because *I trained in some of this
> stuff* and it doesn't feel special to me. I don't *know* if I'm doing
> something anyone else could have learned from wrestling. That's why I
> was so enthused by the fatkid/bodynazi video, because they seem to
> have found a way of limiting variables in a way that allowed fat kid
> to demonstrate a possibly unique and extraordinary facet of his
> skillset without injuring the uke.
Yes; highly structured demonstration.
In a fight wherein 'instinctive' training is tested, you'd need an unlimited
venue, or you're trying to test something the fat kid isn't interested in or
training for.
> You spoke more than once of the eleven year old daughter of a Taiji
> master who split a solid wood door. Solid wood doors have physical
> attributes. It takes a certain specific amount of force to split one.
> If you hook some pressure transducers up to a heavy bag and let that
> little girl take a few shots at it, you'd have some incontraverable
> data. I don't care whether the power comes from chi, body mechanics,
> or Gaea the earth mother. Yet there is no data. None.
You're always welcome to bring some equipment with you- I don't know anyone
who owns it. You've slipped from wanting a show to wanting someone to
measure something for you- both of which efforts are for your entertainment.
Go for it.
> On one hand, there's tons of anecdotal evidence that this stuff is out
> there. Tons of inconclusive video of Erle and fatkid and others doing
> things that, if proven real, would have every MMA advocate on this
> board lining up to get a piece of it.
Then step to him and find out for yourself.
> On the other hand, you have ten
> times as many tons of real fight footage of highly conditioned
> athletes beating self-styled masters of "traditional" martial arts
> like they were children.
Within a structure that nobody uses but you.
Given that you don't test weapons' skills, so there's a whole body of
information ignored.
You don't permit headbutts, eye-attacks, groin attacks, certain kicks (as to
the head of a downed opponent), no flesh attacks, no small-bone attacks,....
And your competitors train to work within that stricture- as opposed to
everybody else who works towards a different goal.
> Please tell me you understand the scepicism.
Sure- an inappropriate conflation of your game with other endeavors.
> Don't you realize that every MMA person on this board at some point
> watched "Kung Fu" on the tube as a kid and was enchanted? That their
> hostility toward Kung Fu may be the commingling of the tantalizing
> hope and crushing disappointment that it just might be real and
> attainable? That's where I'm at. I've felt hints of things
> extraordinary, but there was no DeTouars brother or Chen master or
> fucking Yoda to tell this blind man if he just felt the elephants
> trunk or it's asshole. I want to know, and any impediment to knowing
> pisses me off.
Then search out an adept and satisfy yourself.
If you're impressed, try to get some instruction-
watching videos and ufc contests is probably not where you're going to get
that sort of information.
> I don't care who'd "win in a fight on the str33t". I want to know what
> they've got. How they got it. Can I get it? Can I use it? Telling me
> or anyone else to "Step up" is telling me nothing at all.
It's telling you how to find out-
can't do it by watching vids.
> If some
> Silat guy hits me and it feels like my soul left my body, that tells
> me nothing at all because if an olympic wrestler slams me, it'll feel
> exactly the same way.
No; it doesn't.
Chas
Chas
> Only if english-speakers want to understand it easily.
You either learn to read it yourself, or trust someone else to read it to
you.
The inhabitants of the Archipelago, as an example, used a half-dozen
alphabets that are no longer intelligible to anyone. The Kratons are full of
records that no one can read- dating to the 11th cent. and before.
> Yes they have a history, but having an ancient history doesn't necessarily
> mean they have a ma history.
It does if the culture is preoccupied with war- as they have been for
thousands of years.
The indigenous tribesmen were sought-after warriors to man the Chinese
pirate ships that operated out of Southern Japan; Dayaks, Ifugao, Malay,
Bugis and so on.
> Well Chas, you can ignore the history and use your own I suppose, but go
> to Thailand sometime and tell the Thais this and they'll laugh at you.
No they don't. They are fully aware of the influences both of China and
India on the krabi-krabong art. Muay Thai is as artificial as Russian
ballet.
> The Japs had their own arts, independent of the Chinese, it's all there in
> the history books.
No it isn't- the Japanese culture is mostly Chinese in funny hats, Pete.
>> only as sub-sets of the (both) Chinese and Malay arts (through the island
>> chain and across the strait from the Mainland).
> Where do you get this from? I'm no expert on Malay culture, but the
> history of Japanese ma's simply does not support this. Find me a cite that
> makes this claim definitively. I can quote you numerous ones that say
> otherwise.
'Karate; It's History and Traditions', it's a Tuttle book, author's name
escapes me presently; 'Bruce' something- although 'definitively' is always a
question.
You do know, for instance, that the Okinawan culture has more Malay words
than Japanese ones? That the 'te' goes back closer to Sumatra than to
Mainland China? That it's easier to come up the Island chain than to go to
the Mainland- and they've been doing it for over 6,000 years?
> The Japs don't see it this way, and are in fact deeply insulted if you
> tell them that all of what you mention in their culture is derived from
> the Chinese. It's not.
Their perspective is immaterial- they also claim descent from the gods, as
opposed to Korea; so that's a wash.
> So when they leave no evidence, you conclude Viking wrestling.
Yes; it's mentioned in the sagas, but there are no pictures/videos-
I know that's hard for you guys to relate to- YouTube being your ultimate
authority and all.
> When there is evidence, it's misleading. Hmmm. We can see plenty of
> familiar grappling techs by looking at the artifacts such as vases and
> frescos.
Sure- mostly from desert cultures.
Harsher climes tend to destroy artifacts- Vikings were only a thousand years
ago, and you can count the extant artifacts on one hand (figuratively). They
built in wood, not stone- and all but a few buildings are gone.
> We can only surmise that Vikings had this or that, other than what few
> artifacts they left. Oral cultures generally suck. Being pre-historic by
> definition, they don't leave much of a legacy. DNA might be good for
> tracing people-history but not much more.
They're just finding out that the Viking sagas had a clear basis in fact.
They speak of martial training, but we have no/little physical evidence
left. That which is left is indicative of very sophisticated knowledge. They
produced the best swords in the world- the Chinese valued them above
domestic production, and probably learned their smithing from Westerners
rather than the other way round.
Japanese learned their bladesmithing from Chinese sources five hundred years
later- unless you're going for Amakuni's tengu story; the Fox Spirit and all
that.
> Actually, we have a very good idea...they left written and drawn records.
> The Vikings didn't.
Well, they did, but we just learned how to read them barely thirty years
ago. 'Ogam'/runes were indecipherable until into the 70's, if I understand
correctly from Fell's work.
> Being a big movie start ain't all it's cracked up to be, when you look at
> how many train-wreck humans it creates.
Nah; you can wreck easily without being a Star.
Chas
Wayne Dobson
news:1172374129....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 23, 12:44 am, "Chas" <chascleme...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Sutemi" <ericroess...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Don't you realize that every MMA person on this board at some point
> watched "Kung Fu" on the tube as a kid and was enchanted? That their
> hostility toward Kung Fu may be the commingling of the tantalizing
> hope and crushing disappointment that it just might be real and
> attainable? That's where I'm at. I've felt hints of things
> extraordinary, but there was no DeTouars brother or Chen master or
> fucking Yoda to tell this blind man if he just felt the elephants
> trunk or it's asshole. I want to know, and any impediment to knowing
> pisses me off.
Let me see if I understand this right. You sat infront of the telly, as a
young kid and watched "Kung Fu", now as an adult, you want to, again, sit
infront of the telly, so that the knowledge of how to do those cool moves
can be imparted to you, and it pisses you off that you can't find such
movies?
Have you tried Blockbusters?
Sutemi
> Let me see if I understand this right.
That's easy.
No. You don't have it right.
Wayne Dobson
I bet it took you a long time to think up that answer.
Mike
>
> > That's easy.
>
> > No. You don't have it right.
>
> I bet it took you a long time to think up that answer.
>
> --
> AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Let me guess, you want him to explain to you how you don't have it
right ...
-Mike K.
Sutemi
> Taiji has it's own games-
> what has your game got that is attractive to them?
I know. I've played those games. When two taiji guys play, they can
tell you who's doing better taiji. When I played with wrestlers, I
jammed them in ways they didn't anticipate and they jammed me in ways
I didn't anticipate. It was sorta like playing a playstation game on
an x-box. Unsatisfying. Especially in view of the fact that I nor they
were exemplars of our respective disciplines. That's why I'm trying to
theorize a format where two of the real deal can, oh I don't know,
come up with something more definative than "you took me down like a
CP patient because I wasn't allowed to poke you in the eyes." A fight
or a game is clearly not the way to do it so I thought I'd bounce some
ideas off of someone of wider experience.
> And, in a controlled demonstration context, the fat kid used applications
> that were tailored to the question.
Yes, and I find it encouraging that what I propose may indeed be
doable.
> The answer is that it's your game- guys who play it, like it; guys who
> don't, don't.
Then the trick is to create a game that both guys can like or at least
tolerate. Especially since both stand to profit if it's successful.
> Interesting.
> Then why all the prohibitions on techniques, applications and targets?
> If you want to test fighting skills, why all the limitations?
Speaking strictly for myself, there's no reason to test fighting
skills. A well executed: eye, throat, groin, knee, elbow, etc. attack
will undeniably stop an opponent AFAIC. If the answer to the question
of what, precisely is the difference is simply practicing eye and
throat jabs rather than crosses and uppercuts, then thank you very
much, I am now enlightened and will belabor this point nevermore.
> Yes; highly structured demonstration.
> In a fight wherein 'instinctive' training is tested, you'd need an unlimited
> venue, or you're trying to test something the fat kid isn't interested in or
> training for.
Highly stuctured yes, but non-compliant. When I did Wing Chun, I'd
often play pure defense vs. pure offense. Granted, beyond a certain
level of intensity it became impossible to remain completely defensive
and not get hit. But who gives a shit about takedowns? If a taiji
player can jam 90% of a skilled wrestlers takedown attempts, I think
that speaks quite well for taiji training methods. At least the
training methods of the taiji guy in question.
> You're always welcome to bring some equipment with you- I don't know anyone
> who owns it. You've slipped from wanting a show to wanting someone to
> measure something for you- both of which efforts are for your entertainment.
> Go for it.
They did the same thing for the Loch Ness Monster and you know what?
There was no fucking Loch Ness Monster. I'm not the only one who's
curious about this, just the one with a 1:1 poverty-to-curiosity
ratio. I'm just saying the lack of such easily produced data fuels my
scepticism and I *don't* think that's at all un-fucking-reasonable.
> Then step to him and find out for yourself.
All that would tell me is that he's better than I am at omething I
have no knowledge of . That's the mechanism that keep the corner
kwoons filled with dupes. Put another way, I'm confident I could kick
my own ass without another day of training in my life.
> Within a structure that nobody uses but you.
> Given that you don't test weapons' skills, so there's a whole body of
> information ignored.
> You don't permit headbutts, eye-attacks, groin attacks, certain kicks (as to
> the head of a downed opponent), no flesh attacks, no small-bone attacks,....
> And your competitors train to work within that stricture- as opposed to
> everybody else who works towards a different goal.
No argument that UFC is not going to settle the question. In fact, I
never suggested it could. From the start I've been all about "since
that won't work what could?"
> Sure- an inappropriate conflation of your game with other endeavors.
And more than a smattering of unsubstantiated and conveniently "too
deadly to prove" claims from the "other endevours" camp. Don't forget
that.
> Then search out an adept and satisfy yourself.
> If you're impressed, try to get some instruction-
> watching videos and ufc contests is probably not where you're going to get
> that sort of information.
I'm impressed when a clown pulls an endless hankie from his nose. I
want to know if it was really in his nose.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
> "GreendistantNOSPAMstar" <pde6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote
>> Only if english-speakers want to understand it easily.
>
> You either learn to read it yourself, or trust someone else to read it to you.
> The inhabitants of the Archipelago, as an example, used a half-dozen alphabets
> that are no longer intelligible to anyone. The Kratons are full of records that
> no one can read- dating to the 11th cent. and before.
So if no one can read it I guess we have to pass on meaning, then.
>> Yes they have a history, but having an ancient history doesn't necessarily
>> mean they have a ma history.
>
> It does if the culture is preoccupied with war- as they have been for thousands
> of years.
> The indigenous tribesmen were sought-after warriors to man the Chinese pirate
> ships that operated out of Southern Japan; Dayaks, Ifugao, Malay, Bugis and so
> on.
I find it hard to imagine that the Vikings did not have some for of H2H training,
it's inconceivable that they didn't. However, as they left no records, we are
left only to surmise. It's one of those things that we believe but cannot prove.
>> Well Chas, you can ignore the history and use your own I suppose, but go to
>> Thailand sometime and tell the Thais this and they'll laugh at you.
>
> No they don't. They are fully aware of the influences both of China and India
> on the krabi-krabong art. Muay Thai is as artificial as Russian ballet.
If you can find me a cite, I'll buy.
>> The Japs had their own arts, independent of the Chinese, it's all there in the
>> history books.
>
> No it isn't- the Japanese culture is mostly Chinese in funny hats, Pete.
Eek!
>>> only as sub-sets of the (both) Chinese and Malay arts (through the island
>>> chain and across the strait from the Mainland).
>> Where do you get this from? I'm no expert on Malay culture, but the history of
>> Japanese ma's simply does not support this. Find me a cite that makes this
>> claim definitively. I can quote you numerous ones that say otherwise.
>
> 'Karate; It's History and Traditions', it's a Tuttle book, author's name
> escapes me presently; 'Bruce' something- although 'definitively' is always a
> question.
I'll have a look around....
> You do know, for instance, that the Okinawan culture has more Malay words than
> Japanese ones? That the 'te' goes back closer to Sumatra than to Mainland
> China? That it's easier to come up the Island chain than to go to the Mainland-
> and they've been doing it for over 6,000 years?
I won't dispute cultural influence, but that does not of necessity mean their ma.
I can only go by trusted authorities on this. If there are better ones, I'll
agree with you.
>> The Japs don't see it this way, and are in fact deeply insulted if you tell
>> them that all of what you mention in their culture is derived from the
>> Chinese. It's not.
>
> Their perspective is immaterial- they also claim descent from the gods, as
> opposed to Korea; so that's a wash.
lol! I can think of a few cultures that think that God had some special influence
in their way of life...nudge, nudge, wink, wink...
>> So when they leave no evidence, you conclude Viking wrestling.
>
> Yes; it's mentioned in the sagas, but there are no pictures/videos-
Norse Mythology is NOT history, Chas.
> I know that's hard for you guys to relate to- YouTube being your ultimate
> authority and all.
Hey Paps, I don't wear my baseball cap backwards or do funny finger signs. That's
not my generation, either ;>)
>> When there is evidence, it's misleading. Hmmm. We can see plenty of familiar
>> grappling techs by looking at the artifacts such as vases and frescos.
>
> Sure- mostly from desert cultures.
> Harsher climes tend to destroy artifacts- Vikings were only a thousand years
> ago, and you can count the extant artifacts on one hand (figuratively). They
> built in wood, not stone- and all but a few buildings are gone.
Yup. I've spent a bit of time in Norway and have seen some of their artifacts.
>> We can only surmise that Vikings had this or that, other than what few
>> artifacts they left. Oral cultures generally suck. Being pre-historic by
>> definition, they don't leave much of a legacy. DNA might be good for tracing
>> people-history but not much more.
>
> They're just finding out that the Viking sagas had a clear basis in fact.
?????
> They speak of martial training, but we have no/little physical evidence left.
> That which is left is indicative of very sophisticated knowledge. They produced
> the best swords in the world- the Chinese valued them above domestic
> production, and probably learned their smithing from Westerners rather than the
> other way round.
> Japanese learned their bladesmithing from Chinese sources five hundred years
> later- unless you're going for Amakuni's tengu story; the Fox Spirit and all
> that.
Metal weapons survive and we can glean much from that. If we include weapons
training I would agree, but as to H2H (which is what we were talking about
originally) we have nothing that I'm aware of. We do have lots of stuff from
Egyptian and Greek culture that shows us their H2H skills.
>> Actually, we have a very good idea...they left written and drawn records. The
>> Vikings didn't.
>
> Well, they did, but we just learned how to read them barely thirty years ago.
> 'Ogam'/runes were indecipherable until into the 70's, if I understand correctly
> from Fell's work.
I'm going to look into this some more. I've always been a fan of Norse culture
and I'd be stoked to see any new developments here.
>> Being a big movie start ain't all it's cracked up to be, when you look at how
>> many train-wreck humans it creates.
>
> Nah; you can wreck easily without being a Star.
True that.
Chas
> So if no one can read it I guess we have to pass on meaning, then.
Yeah; there's an oral tradition, with the attendant strengths and
weaknesses- and of course, scads of stuff they can read, but no reason to
translate it to English. I understand there's a lot of stuff translated to
Dutch, but not from that to English either.
> I find it hard to imagine that the Vikings did not have some for of H2H
> training, it's inconceivable that they didn't. However, as they left no
> records, we are left only to surmise. It's one of those things that we
> believe but cannot prove.
They talk about it in their sagas- particularly about a grappling system-
but they don't go into it much as it was well-known to all.
>> No they don't. They are fully aware of the influences both of China and
>> India on the krabi-krabong art. Muay Thai is as artificial as Russian
>> ballet.
> If you can find me a cite, I'll buy.
A 'cite' for what? The Chinese influence on SEAsian martial skills? What
sort of cite would you imagine to exist?
> I won't dispute cultural influence, but that does not of necessity mean
> their ma.
Look at the weaponry- the Malays have all of the 'unique' Okinawan weapons
that are not found in the Chinese arsenal- the sai being one of the most
obvious. It's a common weapon in India, in Indonesia, in Okinawa- not so
much in China.
Look also at the history of pirates in the area- lots of good histories
about. The islands have always been a major source of people, culture,
language and martial skills for the Okinawans.
>> Yes; it's mentioned in the sagas, but there are no pictures/videos-
> Norse Mythology is NOT history, Chas.
The sagas are not 'Norse Myth'- two different bodies of
literature/tradition. The sagas were stories about actual people- the Myths
were about supernatural beings.
>> They're just finding out that the Viking sagas had a clear basis in fact.
> ?????
The stuff about voyages; viking trade trips to China and so on- to India;
the Greenland voyages, Vinland- all that.
Not talking about the stories of the gods/goddesses.
> Metal weapons survive and we can glean much from that.
Vikings and Brits were weird in that they deliberately destroyed swords,
threw them in rivers and bogs, buried them at sea with warriors. We have a
few, like the Sutton Hoo treasure and so on- sufficient to know that they
were amongst the most sophisticated swords ever made by anyone- far more
complex than Japanese or Indo-Persian.
Some guy did a reproduction of the Sutton Hoo sword- very sophisticated and
difficult to do, even with modern forge-welding techniques. They still can't
do the granulation and carinated work comparable to them- nor their
enameling.
> If we include weapons training I would agree, but as to H2H (which is what
> we were talking about originally) we have nothing that I'm aware of. We do
> have lots of stuff from Egyptian and Greek culture that shows us their H2H
> skills.
The word 'cledd' springs to mind as the name of their grappling art- they
punched and kicked as well as wrestled. Some warriors are mentioned as being
proficient- but no details of technic.
> I'm going to look into this some more. I've always been a fan of Norse
> culture and I'd be stoked to see any new developments here.
'America B.C.' by Barry Fell. He was a paleo-linguist specializing in
sea-faring cultures' writing. He translated a stone in the mid-70's (shades
of the Rosetta) that was written in two forms of Ogam and a language that
they knew (name escapes me, but it had to do with Celto-Iberians, ims)
He started reading 'paleoliths'; stones with carved Ogam writing-
specializing in stones found in America that purport to pre-date Columbus
and are carved with Ogam.
Fascinating book- lots of controversies about some of his conclusions, but
the linguistic scholarship is there.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Mike" <mkor...@nd.edu> wrote in message
news:1172449597.0...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Yup, that's Wayne's ploy. It's kinda lazy, but if you don't have a clue, perhaps
the only ploy available.