A further analysis of WC?
Badger_s
when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
between the elusive reality and the real event.
Such is the case with WC.
http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/jeungng.htm
This article talks about the three phases of martial awareness, a red flag
that someone has overanalyzed the event with insufficient information and
precious little experience in fighting.
It initially sounds good saying stage one is the awareness of yourself in
space, two is the awareness of the opponent. The third stage, however:
"Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one’s
parts within defined space"
What? Clearly gobbledygook.
The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
and width and focal points.
But fighting is not like that. In fighting we simplify. We hit the opponent
and he hits back. We use footwork not strange concepts of time and space
and gates defined by the arms and body. The mind does calculations and
timing in a free flow and does not have to involve some mathematic
construct. (note the 'Inner Game of Tennis'). When you pull out into
traffic you are not aware of the sophisticated math your brain is doing to
judge the closing speed of cars.
In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
move, find and create openings.
Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
-B
Laszlo
Badger_s wrote:
>
> Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
> figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
I've always said that WC concepts sound like a very intelligent person
who had never been in a fight took some educated guesses as to what
happens, and worked out an MA system based on those guesses.
Laszlo
Chas
> In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
> of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
> move, find and create openings.
no- it's the same as in any other physical activity- just as you learn to
box, or do archery, or ride a horse, there are known movement series' and
common corrections for people who do them wrong.
If you look at 17th cent. swordsmanship books, you'll see that they went so
far as to draw diagrams on the ground to give you an understanding of the
dynamics of available options. It saved the novice from having to figure out
a plan- and maybe dying in the process, or from overlooking something
obvious to a trained person.
A lot of fighting is counter-intuitive, because you're exploiting something
unexpected- even if it has a low-percentage application from an untrained
person. Remember, in the real world, you don't have a clue about what your
opponent knows- no scouts, no highlight reels, no cornerman-
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
Wayne Dobson
news:5uk3m2d3ui5ck1dgp...@4ax.com...
> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or
information
> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>
> Such is the case with WC.
Maybe we should find one article, writen by a dumbass and use that to
characterise BJJ.
> http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/jeungng.htm
>
> This article talks about the three phases of martial awareness, a red flag
> that someone has overanalyzed the event with insufficient information and
> precious little experience in fighting.
It's a red flag to a BJJer that some heretic has spoken something not
contained within the sacred teachings of BJJ.
> It initially sounds good saying stage one is the awareness of yourself in
> space, two is the awareness of the opponent. The third stage, however:
>
> "Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one's
> parts within defined space"
>
> What? Clearly gobbledygook.
I say we burn him at the stake.
> The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
> and width and focal points.
He obviously has brain damage.
> But fighting is not like that. In fighting we simplify. We hit the
opponent
> and he hits back.
That's right: fighting is about trading blows. I hit you, now you hit me,
and we carry on like that until one of us falls over. That's what fighting
is all about. Just keep it simple and you can't go wrong.
> We use footwork not strange concepts of time and space
> and gates defined by the arms and body.
Yes, we use footwork - only for those with feet that work, as opposed to
those with wooden feet on the end of stumps, just there for aesthetic
purposes. Time and space? What are those? Very strange. Why speak of
'gates,' when you can say 'guard,' or 'time and space,' when you can say
"timing and distance"? You see? Completely different. Nah, we don't use
strange concepts.
> The mind does calculations and
> timing in a free flow and does not have to involve some mathematic
> construct. (note the 'Inner Game of Tennis').
I was heading out somewhere today and this slouch in front of me was holding
me up, furthermore, he was standing too close. I said to him, "Stop
hindering my esoteric concept and encrouching into my mathematical
construct!" I was trying to keep it real.
> When you pull out into
> traffic you are not aware of the sophisticated math your brain is doing to
> judge the closing speed of cars.
I had this same argument with my instructor. He mentioned the words
"reference points" and "alignment." I informed him that this was not a
mathematics class.
> In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
> of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
> move, find and create openings.
I also did that. I managed to free myself from the false concept of
geometry by applying shionage. It had me by the wrists.
> Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
> figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
That's just silly. You begin by describing what happens when someone
without enough experience, tries to analyse something they are ignorant of,
then you end with your own example of it. Try demonstrating a pattern, not
an anomaly.
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Badger_s
wrote:
>"Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote
>> In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
>> of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
>> move, find and create openings.
>
>no- it's the same as in any other physical activity- just as you learn to
>box, or do archery, or ride a horse, there are known movement series' and
>common corrections for people who do them wrong.
I'm not talking about starting from scratch. It's the over-analysis and
forced overlay of these things as an alternative to sparring and fighting.
It's them trying to explain why their drillings (should) work in fighting
as opposed to actually finding these things out during the flow of fighting
training.
>If you look at 17th cent. swordsmanship books, you'll see that they went so
>far as to draw diagrams on the ground to give you an understanding of the
>dynamics of available options. It saved the novice from having to figure out
>a plan- and maybe dying in the process, or from overlooking something
>obvious to a trained person.
Diagrams on the floor in training is one thing. It's actually a good way to
internalize the fighting measure.
>A lot of fighting is counter-intuitive, because you're exploiting something
>unexpected- even if it has a low-percentage application from an untrained
>person. Remember, in the real world, you don't have a clue about what your
>opponent knows- no scouts, no highlight reels, no cornerman-
Again, talking about the endless theorizing and 'what WC could do', rather
than actually testing it in alive sparring. If WC manages to do that, then
good for them. They've got some pretty good maxims, but some of them are
ridiculous.
-B
Badger North
Badger_s wrote:
> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or information
> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>
> Such is the case with WC.
I liked Frank Benn's comment on WC a while back:
It's funny. I had a guy who trained at my academy a few years back who
said
he was a WC instructor. Actually had a few of them over the years.
Seems
they like to co-opt techniques and call them their own. Others like to
do
their drawing board analysis, showing how WC is the 'perfect scientific
fighting system'. This particular person would go on about how WC was
the
*original* mixed martial art -- since it covered all ranges (his
words).
Every time a ground position came up, he'd say it was a part of WC, or
that
it fit perfectly in the structure of WC. It got to be tiresome. Then in
boxing class he'd do the same thing -- blurt out how it was like WC.
One
time in the middle of a boxing class I heard him talking to another
student,
comparing what they do in WC to what a boxer would do, and how the WC
way
was better in the "real world".
And that was the proverbial straw.
He sort of shrunk after I told him outright that WC is not the ultimate
"mixed martial art" he thinks it is, that the posture and footwork
alone
would get him knocked out by a club boxer with 6 months' training, and
that
jiu jitsu ground positions are definitely not a part of WC. The posture
of
WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands are too low, weight is back on
the
heels, they have no viable defense against a boxing overhand or a hook,
*completely* out of position to deal with a shot. The list goes on. Tan
sao and bong sao presume a WC type offense, and will get you knocked
out.
Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
leaves
your chin open, among other things. I'll leave other aspects of phon
sao
alone, since it's an untenable range anyway. No head movement,
slipping,
ducking, no change of level, etc. The kicks are upright and stilted,
and
lack power. Vertical fist chain punches (jik chung choi) lack reach and
power follow though, which is fine if someone stands there and lets you
rat-a-tat-tat them in the head -- but nobody with any sense does.
But to the true believer it's like Ptolemaic astronomy. A simplistic
and
clean arrangement that's more of a design on reality than an
observation of
it. People like that kind of thing. Everybody needs a hobby.
Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" reads much like the
history
of martial art. Ever notice how social factors within the 'martial arts
community' do as much to drive the popularity of an art or the reasons
for
acceptance by adherents (or just plain "holding on" despite all
evidence) as
anything else.
Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when has it ever
been
otherwise.
Frank Benn
IFA Academy
Austin, TX
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
Badger_s
wrote:
>But to the true believer it's like Ptolemaic astronomy. A simplistic
>and clean arrangement that's more of a design on reality than an
>observation of it. People like that kind of thing. Everybody needs a
>hobby.
>
>Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" reads much like the
>history of martial art. Ever notice how social factors within the 'martial arts
>community' do as much to drive the popularity of an art or the reasons
>for acceptance by adherents (or just plain "holding on" despite all
>evidence) as anything else.
>
>Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when has it ever
>been otherwise.
>
>Frank Benn
>IFA Academy
>Austin, TX
>
>
>Badger North
Well Frank said it better. I like the idea of the Ptolemaic astronomy
reference - everything had been fitted into neat little orbits and people
spent a lot of time trying to twist them to fit the actual observations.
There was a thread on the UG about this and some vids offered up where some
guy in red striped pants was lording it over the assembled disciples
featuring anti-grappling (iow grappling defense in absence of grappling
skill). Not only is he having the opponent come at him in WC posture and
not a good shoot, he's also stopping at the takedown and 'indicating'
air-punches. Even after we TELL them what they're doing wrong they
stubbornly continue with these bogus demos.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B4CkihhjDCA
Looks impressive, but it's bogus.
If you look at it another way, if WC was such a great structure, why
doesn't it work -at all- from under mount or in guard? There's nobody doing
tansao, bongsao blocking there. They control the opponent's wrists or
biceps or pull them into a tieup grabbing the neck, or skoot down and grab
the waist. Thus, one of the failures of WC is that in standup they're not
capturing the neck when they enter trapping range. It's artificial. You get
past grip-fighting range and into elbow distance and you go immediately
into Thai tie-ups, single collar tie and under hook, or pummel for
underhooks and body lock. you don't somehow -stay- at trapping range long
enough to do more than one move - maybe a slap block.
I think the WC guys are afraid that they can't make trapping work so they
stay away from actual fighting which would disprove it.
The best I've seen is what Gary Lam is trying to do and that's move from a
forearm tieup to a strong push. He sets up a mattress vertically behind the
guy, does chi sao and then jerks and/or enters abruptly and pushed them
back forcefully. But even here you see the artificiality:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZgsMvbvJyc
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5258587603060256738
It' similar to the inside sweep block in FMA. It just doesn't work (without
modification) in real sparring and power shots. (I think the FMA guys are
afraid of losing their flippy dippy stuff in sparring too, so they go back
to the safe drilling too much).
There is some good stuff in WC, but guys are not going to stay in range
like that, even in a static bar fight.
I want to see Gary do it against a good boxer...the anti-grappling against
a decent wrestler or MMA guy.
-B
Herbert Cannon
> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or
> information
> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>
> Such is the case with WC.
>
trav...@aol.com
> On 20 Nov 2006 10:52:40 -0800, "Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=B4CkihhjDCA
>
> Looks impressive, but it's bogus.
Does it look impressive? What is impressive about it is how everyone
completely stops as of the first hit by the demonstrator. People in
real life just seem to keep coming and ignoring hits. The recurring
themes of these demos is how the attackers freeze instantly upon the
first strike. It's almost like they are prepared to stop. Think it
was the physics book that said if someone was in a golf swing
downstroke and you shot them, they'd still hit the ball. There've been
double KOs in boxing, too.
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZgsMvbvJyc
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5258587603060256738
>
> It' similar to the inside sweep block in FMA. It just doesn't work (without
> modification) in real sparring and power shots. (I think the FMA guys are
> afraid of losing their flippy dippy stuff in sparring too, so they go back
> to the safe drilling too much).
>
> There is some good stuff in WC, but guys are not going to stay in range
> like that, even in a static bar fight.
>
> I want to see Gary do it against a good boxer...the anti-grappling against
> a decent wrestler or MMA guy.
>
> -B
Against a crappy wrestler, this shit wouldn't work. People *seriously*
underestimate how quick a shot comes in by someone w/ a couple years of
wrestling. And, weakly punching the back of his head isn't going to
stop the rush.
Trav
lrc7
> Against a crappy wrestler, this shit wouldn't work.
Against *me* this wouldn't work, and I would make Trav look like Danny
fucking Hodge. I've also never seen anyone keel over from a front kick
to the shin before.
Lee Casebolt
Badger North
Yes. You've never seen three guys try to tackle a home-reno project?
They'll all stand there, chin in hand, making predictions and
waving-hand-in-air motions, and recommendations as to what sort of
obscure tool is necessary - the problem is increased when it comes to
plumbing.
Badger "yes, I *am* in the process of renovating my bathroom, why do
you ask?" North
www.youngforest.ca
Herbert Cannon
">> Water closets?
>
> Yes. You've never seen three guys try to tackle a home-reno project?
That is two too many.
> They'll all stand there, chin in hand, making predictions and
> waving-hand-in-air motions, and recommendations as to what sort of
> obscure tool is necessary - the problem is increased when it comes to
> plumbing.
Tell me about it.
>
> Badger "yes, I *am* in the process of renovating my bathroom, why do
> you ask?" North
Hope you dont have those damn 1.5 gal commodes the morons require here by
law now.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
news:bom8h.173219$3x1.1...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote in message
> news:5uk3m2d3ui5ck1dgp...@4ax.com...
>> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or
> information
>> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
>> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
>> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>>
>> Such is the case with WC.
>
> Maybe we should find one article, writen by a dumbass and use that to
> characterise BJJ.
Man, you really dislike Bjj, don't you? Why? You dislike what you perceive to be
the arrogance of Bjj'ers, right? Or is it that part of you realizes just how
effective it is and you're jealous? Probably both, eh?
So you say you have an instructor. In what art? Or is that a secret?
--
GDS
" Let's roll! "
Wayne Dobson
"lrc7" <lr...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1164057432....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Where was that?
Wayne Dobson
news:1164052596.3...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Badger_s wrote:
> > On 20 Nov 2006 10:52:40 -0800, "Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=B4CkihhjDCA
> >
> > Looks impressive, but it's bogus.
>
> Does it look impressive? What is impressive about it is how everyone
> completely stops as of the first hit by the demonstrator.
Except no such thing happens here.
> People in
> real life just seem to keep coming and ignoring hits. The recurring
> themes of these demos is how the attackers freeze instantly upon the
> first strike. It's almost like they are prepared to stop. Think it
> was the physics book that said if someone was in a golf swing
> downstroke and you shot them, they'd still hit the ball. There've been
> double KOs in boxing, too.
It would be nice if you actually bothered to watch the clip.
> > I want to see Gary do it against a good boxer...the anti-grappling
against
> > a decent wrestler or MMA guy.
> >
> > -B
>
> Against a crappy wrestler, this shit wouldn't work. People *seriously*
> underestimate how quick a shot comes in by someone w/ a couple years of
> wrestling. And, weakly punching the back of his head isn't going to
> stop the rush.
Fighters fight. Armchair warriors speculate.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Badger North" <young_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164048760.2...@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
This is a splendid post by Frank, worthy of more intimate analysis...
"WC is not the ultimate "mixed martial art" he thinks it is.." - The integration
of Chinese martial arts styles with themselves or others is a myth.
"that the posture and footwork alone would get him knocked out by a club boxer
with 6 months' training" - When I suggest to the likes of Xiaou2 to go to a
boxing gym and try his chain-punching, I'm not joking, and this is why.
"and that jiu jitsu ground positions are definitely not a part of WC...." - As
the Cheung-Botzepe clip so hilariously showed....
"The posture of WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands are too low, weight is
back on the heels, they have no viable defense against a boxing overhand or a
hook.."
Hallelujah!
" *completely* out of position to deal with a shot. The list goes on...."
It does...
Thanks for re-posting this, Badger North.
Fraser Johnston
>
> Herbert Cannon wrote:
>> > One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or
>> > information
>> > when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
>> > making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
>> > between the elusive reality and the real event.
>> >
>> > Such is the case with WC.
>> >
>> Water closets?
>
> Yes. You've never seen three guys try to tackle a home-reno project?
> They'll all stand there, chin in hand, making predictions and
> waving-hand-in-air motions, and recommendations as to what sort of
> obscure tool is necessary - the problem is increased when it comes to
> plumbing.
I am the go to man when a wall needs knocking down. My friends reckon I get an
evil gleam in my eye with a sledgehammer.
Fraser
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
In China....hundreds of years ago. I read about it in books I can't recall.
Wayne Dobson
It's funny that a martial artist would go to a boxing ring, have so much to
say about boxing, then, apparently, not being prepared to box.
> He sort of shrunk after I told him outright that WC is not the ultimate
> "mixed martial art" he thinks it is, that the posture and footwork
> alone
> would get him knocked out by a club boxer with 6 months' training, and
> that
> jiu jitsu ground positions are definitely not a part of WC. The posture
> of
> WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands are too low, weight is back on
> the
> heels, they have no viable defense against a boxing overhand or a hook,
> *completely* out of position to deal with a shot.
Studying the static form doesn't tell anyone much and observing non-fighters
just informs one how not to fight. Also, I'm not aware of any dogma that
states that your weight most be back on your heels. I place my feet where
and how I feel my feet need to be, depending on what I'm trying to do.
> The list goes on. Tan
> sao and bong sao presume a WC type offense, and will get you knocked
> out.
I've used bong sao in sparring, to block a suprise attack with a training
knife, and to deflect the fist of someone attempting to punch me in the
mouth. I didn't need to presume anything about the type of offense, for the
defense to succeed, as I was taken by surprise.
> Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
> leaves
> your chin open, among other things.
Every move is going to leave something open, being as, if you defend one
area, it means you are not defending another. The idea is to bring the
appropriate defense.
> I'll leave other aspects of phon
> sao
> alone, since it's an untenable range anyway. No head movement,
> slipping,
> ducking, no change of level, etc.
Funny, I've had to move my head out of the way, a number of times, when my
block was late, in real fights and sparring. Strangely, I didn't feel bad
about that pragmatism, in not allowing myself to be knocked out, in the
service of a dogma. It might not have been Wing Chun, but I've also had
occasion to duck. I must be some sort of heathen.
> The kicks are upright and stilted, and lack power.
Wing Chun is more about speed, than power; cumulative damage, rather than
one hit knockouts.
> Vertical fist chain punches (jik chung choi) lack reach and
> power follow though, which is fine if someone stands there and lets you
> rat-a-tat-tat them in the head -- but nobody with any sense does.
Well applied chain punches are not fun to be on the end of and more tricky
to deal with than I expected, at least.
> But to the true believer it's like Ptolemaic astronomy. A simplistic
> and
> clean arrangement that's more of a design on reality than an
> observation of
> it.
The moves are simple. It's recognising which context calls for which move,
which is more challenging.
> People like that kind of thing. Everybody needs a hobby.
My hobbies were never included setting myself up to get my ass beat. I'm
quirky like that.
> Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" reads much like the
> history
> of martial art. Ever notice how social factors within the 'martial arts
> community' do as much to drive the popularity of an art or the reasons
> for
> acceptance by adherents (or just plain "holding on" despite all
> evidence) as
> anything else.
Arts tend to effective in an inversely proportionate sense to their
popularity.
> Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when has it ever
> been
> otherwise.
Benjamins is what usually stiffles progress.
Chas
>......I've also never seen anyone keel over from a front kick
>>> to the shin before.
>> Where was that?
> In China....hundreds of years ago. I read about it in books I can't
> recall.
Hughes just went down to one the other night with GSP- had they allowed
kicks to the head/groin, he might well have stayed down.
Chas
Wayne Dobson
news:g_r8h.69319$rP1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Wayne Dobson" <nos...@noaddress.com> wrote in message
> news:bom8h.173219$3x1.1...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > "Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote in message
> > news:5uk3m2d3ui5ck1dgp...@4ax.com...
> >> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or
> > information
> >> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end
up
> >> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a
patch
> >> between the elusive reality and the real event.
> >>
> >> Such is the case with WC.
> >
> > Maybe we should find one article, writen by a dumbass and use that to
> > characterise BJJ.
>
> Man, you really dislike Bjj, don't you?
No, I actually like BJJ. You've not been paying attention. I've said that,
before.
> Why?
Void.
> You dislike what you perceive to be the arrogance of Bjj'ers, right?
Right.
> Or is it that part of you realizes just how effective it is and you're
jealous?
No. I know how effective it is.
> Probably both, eh?
One out of two.
> So you say you have an instructor. In what art? Or is that a secret?
I don't presently have an instructor.
Wombat
On Nov 20, 11:33 am, Badger_s<Bad...@south.com> wrote:
> On 20 Nov 2006 10:52:40 -0800, "Badger North" <young_for...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >But to the true believer it's like Ptolemaic astronomy. A simplistic
> >and clean arrangement that's more of a design on reality than an
> >observation of it. People like that kind of thing. Everybody needs a
> >hobby.
>
> >Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" reads much like the
> >history of martial art. Ever notice how social factors within the 'martial arts
> >community' do as much to drive the popularity of an art or the reasons
> >for acceptance by adherents (or just plain "holding on" despite all
> >evidence) as anything else.
>
> >Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when has it ever
> >been otherwise.
>
> >Frank Benn
> >IFA Academy
> >Austin, TX
>
> >Badger NorthWell Frank said it better. I like the idea of the Ptolemaic astronomy
> reference - everything had been fitted into neat little orbits and people
> spent a lot of time trying to twist them to fit the actual observations.
>
> There was a thread on the UG about this and some vids offered up where some
> guy in red striped pants was lording it over the assembled disciples
> featuring anti-grappling (iow grappling defense in absence of grappling
> skill). Not only is he having the opponent come at him in WC posture and
> not a good shoot, he's also stopping at the takedown and 'indicating'
> air-punches. Even after we TELL them what they're doing wrong they
> stubbornly continue with these bogus demos.
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=B4CkihhjDCA
>
> Looks impressive, but it's bogus.
What's interesting to me here is that the WC guy "wins" in the demos by
_grappling_ -- he somehow magically sweeps and gains mount or back and
then is free to pound the guy. The designated loser seems to always be
going through the motions with a look of surprised futility on his
face, like the team that always loses to the Harlem Globetrotters.
The best was when they were rolling two by two on the ground, and the
"WC" guy was always able to hit and sweep or pass the "grappler" guy
from guard, from mount, from the other guy's guard, basically from all
positions, but somehow the "grappler" guy couldn't do the same.
No, no contradictions here!
=wl
Sam the Bam
> Against *me* this wouldn't work, and I would make Trav look like Danny
> fucking Hodge.
I doubt either Danny or Hodge appreciate your public
gossip regarding their closed door recreations. And I doubt
Trav appreciates the comparison. (though he might
appreciate the flattery to his flexibility)
> I've also never seen anyone keel over from a front kick
> to the shin before.
Once, an opponent raised his leg into my front kick,
and I broke a toe on his shin. I keeled over right quick.
Sam
Sam the Bam
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=B4CkihhjDCA
> >
> > Looks impressive, but it's bogus.
>
> Does it look impressive? What is impressive about it is how everyone
> completely stops as of the first hit by the demonstrator. People in
> real life just seem to keep coming and ignoring hits.
Yeah, Chick Liddell needs to develop his ground game,
he'll never get anywhere hitting guys... oh wait, that's
the ring, not real life...
> The recurring themes of these demos is how the attackers
> freeze instantly upon the first strike.
You've never been punched in the nose, have you? Earth to
Trav: a straight right to the nose - even a stiff jab - stops a man.
> It's almost like they are prepared to stop.
Well, it is in the script.
> Think it was the physics book that said if someone was
> in a golf swing downstroke and you shot them, they'd
> still hit the ball.
They'd bunt the ball.
The human body doesn't work as you assert.
> There've been double KOs in boxing, too.
Name one.
Anti-evidence: Marciano - Walcott, 1952. One of the
classic KOs. Both fighters launched right hands at
the same moment, Rocky conects first, Walcott's
head snaps, his punch dies.
Yay, Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMLydNQqwIU
Perhaps you have in mind the double kills of pistol
duels. Heck, anybody could mix up shooting and
punching... I couldn't, but I suppose somebody could...
Sam
Sam the Bam
> I liked Frank Benn's comment on WC a while back:
snip
> The posture of WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands
> are too low, weight is back on the
> heels, they have no viable defense against a boxing overhand or a hook,
> *completely* out of position to deal with a shot.
> Tan sao and bong sao presume a WC type offense, and will get
> you knocked out.
> Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
> leaves your chin open, among other things. I'll leave other aspects
> of phon sao alone, since it's an untenable range anyway.
Can anybody translate this into Engrish?
> Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when
> has it ever been otherwise.
Sig line!
Sam
xiaou2
> I'm not talking about starting from scratch. It's the over-analysis
> and forced overlay of these things as an alternative to sparring and
> fighting. It's them trying to explain why their drillings (should)
> work in fighting as opposed to actually finding these things out
> during the flow of fighting training.
There are many people out there... that if they had to design an
art from scratch.. would never be able to advance to the levels
of effectivity.
Why? Because, instead of thinking about things in complex
scientific ways.. it always stays 'low tech'.
In full sparring mode 'only'... or even 'mostly'... people
get more worried about getting hit than to actually be able
to realize how to accomplish a complex goal.
For example.. If you never Drove a car before... How well do
you think you would do being placed in the cockpit of a
pro F1 racing car? One that has manual shifting, and your
on a course with windy curves, rain wet track, some oil spills,
nitros allowed!, etc.. and you HAVE to hit high speeds or
die from others crashing into you...
Trying to learn something brand new, and at a fast pace
leads to mistakes. Also, since your mind is so busy
focused on whats happening, you cant focus on betterment
very much at all.
Now, if you THINK that these things arnt tested at full
speeds and full power.. you are very mistaken. Some
of todays lower level people may not have.. but TRUE WC,
is tested and practiced in such a mannor.
But before thrusting people into the drivers seat of
the F1, they give them a course on how to drive,
then practice driving in a beat up Mini. THen later,
it progresses to the sports car..
As for whats being discussed.. you are not clear
on it, because youve never trained in such a mannor.
You really do not grasp the ideas.. which become
very clear after only a short time in the system.
All the science has alreay been developed and
turned into movements and knowledge. Used to give
the system its greater advantages over many other
systems.. which mostly stress sparring only.
There is a lot more than meets the eye to
fighting. Many hidden things that youd
NEVER think of.. and never realized even
in years of feirce battle. Then one
day, someone tells you this 'certian way'..
and its like "WOW. That so easy, and makes
perfect sence. Why didnt I ever realize that?!".
Yes, you can to some degree do many things
inside your mind mentally.. without any
real thought. However, that also means
that you are not always fully aware of
everything happening on ALL levels.. thus
missing out on several oppertunities and
reduction of failure possibilities.
The added awareness'es, coupled with the
true training to exploit them, equals a
system that adds huge leaps and bounds over
other systems.
I know for sure.. that If I had TRIED to read
that Link in my past.. well before I had trained
in WC.. I wouldnt have understood more than 10%
of it.. and would have declared it overcomplex BS..
as well as stopped reading it one quarter the
way down.
However, today, Im actually suprised at hom much
it all makes sence. Even me with my limited
vocabulary and overall mental capability.. can
realize whats happening because of the real
physical experience that I incurred over the years.
I surely couldnt explain what was said so
elequantly as that.. but I 'might' be able to
simplify it given some time. However... even
so... would people really understand it
on its simplest of its complex levels without
physical demonstration and acutal usage/training?
Maybe not even 40%... And even less than that consideing
that most people minds are filled with rocks. (chosen
ignorance perpetated by the EGO)
>
> Again, talking about the endless theorizing and 'what WC could do',
> rather than actually testing it in alive sparring. If WC manages to do
> that, then good for them. They've got some pretty good maxims, but
> some of them are ridiculous.
>
I do not believe Ive seen Benny Meng in action
sadly. However, His knowledge is amazingly extensive..
and so is his experience within multiple varients
of the style.. as well as other styles such as
Judo and Tae Kwan Do.
Anyone that has that type of depth and such a
varried background AND writes about the arts at
such depth just goes to say how really
experienced they really are.
---------------
Master Benny Meng:
* A principle founder and Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton,
Ohio
* 7th Level Senior Instructor, Ving Tsun Athletic Association, Hong
Kong
* 7th Degree Kung fu Black Sash (IMYVTKF)
* 5th Degree Tae Kwon Do Black Belt (WTF)
* Instructor in Chin Na and Tai Chi Chuan
* Noted Author of Books and Magazine Articles
* State and National Championships in Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do
* Outstanding Instructor and International Hall of Fame Awards
* National Director & Referee, WKF Wing Chun Competition Events
* A.S. Degree in Acupuncture
* Master Instructor for the Chinese Cultural Centers in Dayton and
Cincinnati, Ohio
-----------
Id say this guy know his game very well!
Full:
http://www.mengsmartialarts.com/meng.php
Master Benny Meng
An internationally renowned martial artist, instructor and referee, Benny
Meng has devoted his entire lifetime to the field of martial arts starting
from age 10. He has been featured by national news and major martial arts
publications as among the world's best martial artists. He has fought and
won against some of the "world's best," both in the U.S. and in the Orient.
Master Meng has also performed numerous international martial arts
demonstrations nationally, astounding on-lookers with feats of
concentration, speed, and special techniques!
Master Meng studied martial arts all over the Orient. He started his
martial arts training in Hong Kong (1970-Judo). He began broadening his
skills and knowledge with Tae Kwon Do training in 1974 under Grand Master
Y.C. Kim (9th Dan, WTF) in the United States. Additional Tae Kwon Do
training included Grand Master K. J. Park, former Head Judge at the Kuk Ki
Won, the Korean Headquarters for Tae Kwon Do. He has enjoyed the privilege
of studying under several famous Kung Fu Grand Masters from various styles.
Beginning in 1981, Benny Meng embarked on an extended study of martial arts
that took him to: Hong Kong (1981-Tai Chi Mantis & Ving Tsun) Mainland
China (1983-Shaolin Temple and Sichuan Sports University), Korea (1985-Tae
Kwon Do with the Korean National Team) and Taiwan (1985-Shaolin, Chi Kung).
Benny Meng began his Wing Chun Kung Fu training in Hong Kong in 1982 under
the movie star Sifu Lee Hoi Sang, a student of Jiu Wan. Jiu Wan had
completed training in the Wing Chun system through Chan Yiu Min in China
prior to beginning his training with Yip Man. Chan Yiu Min was the son of
Chan Wah Shun, the first teacher of Yip Man. Benny Meng’s training under
Lee Hoi Sang was interrupted after 1½ years of intense study by his return
to the United States. He resumed full time training under Sifu Moy Yat in
New York City in 1985. He officially started teaching Wing Chun in 1987.
In 1994, Benny Meng began another journey through the system with Sifu Moy
Yat through private lessons. With Moy Yat's blessing, he began another
journey through the system in 1995 via extensive private lessons with his
Sibaak (kung fu uncle) Yip Ching. The Ving Tsun Museum, the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association, and the Moy Yat International Ving Tsun Federation
certified him as a Senior Instructor (7th Degree).
With the establishment of the Ving Tsun Museum project in 1993, Benny
Meng's passion for Wing Chun research has been fueled at an ever-
accelerating rate by his position as Curator. To broaden the knowledge of
his original Wing Chun system, he sought further research and training from
numerous lineages different from the Yip Man style. Benny Meng had the
privilege of studying under Sifu Garrett Gee, inheritor of the Hung Fa Yi
Wing Chun lineage in 1998. In the summer of 2000, Benny Meng became Sifu
Gee’s first disciple.
Master Meng's school is recognized worldwide, affiliated with the
International Moy Yat Ving Tsun Federation (USA), the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association (Hong Kong), the Fatsaan Jing Mo (China), the Wushu and Kuoshu
Kung Fu Federations (USA), and the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (USTU).
Master Benny Meng:
* A principle founder and Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton,
Ohio
* 7th Level Senior Instructor, Ving Tsun Athletic Association, Hong
Kong
* 7th Degree Kung fu Black Sash (IMYVTKF)
* 5th Degree Tae Kwon Do Black Belt (WTF)
* Instructor in Chin Na and Tai Chi Chuan
* Noted Author of Books and Magazine Articles
* State and National Championships in Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do
* Outstanding Instructor and International Hall of Fame Awards
* National Director & Referee, WKF Wing Chun Competition Events
* A.S. Degree in Acupuncture
* Master Instructor for the Chinese Cultural Centers in Dayton and
Cincinnati, Ohio
The Meng’s Martial Arts School System is different from other martial arts
centers. It follows the establishment of local clubs in the Ohio area since
1978. After finishing the Ving Tsun system in New York under Moy Yat, he
returned to Dayton, Ohio and opened his first school in 1987. In 1994
Meng’s Martial Arts was chosen for the prestigious Top 200 Schools of North
America award out of more than 15,000 contenders. Since that time, Meng’s
has grown to an integrated network of branches incorporating a complete
system utilizing the purest form of authentic traditional martial arts and
science teaching and development. Today, Meng’s Martial Arts in one of only
three schools in the world that offers the martial science of Hung Fa Yi
Wing Chun. The results of Meng’s teaching speak for themselves:
* National and State champions every year since opening in 1987
* School recognized by international publications and martial arts
promoters as one of the largest and most successful school systems in North
America (6 branch schools throughout the U.S. and over 50 affiliates around
the world)
* School decorated by the City of Huber Heights 6 times for special
achievement in the development of local youths
* School decorated by the Ohio Senate and Ohio House of Representatives
* Co-sponsor of annual Battle of Dayton
Benny Meng personally strives for quality, not quantity in his teaching. He
aims to develop the “elite of the elite.” Each student is encouraged to
strive to develop the “Master” level and to reach the highest plateau of
martial arts through personal dedication, knowledge, and patience. Training
under Master Meng is a true learning experience for the young child to the
senior citizen.
xiaou2
The guys sounds like most people here. :P
> He sort of shrunk after I told him outright that WC is not the
> ultimate "mixed martial art" he thinks it is, that the posture and
> footwork alone
> would get him knocked out by a club boxer with 6 months' training,
THe posture and footwork have good advantage which
aid to the defensive and offensive ability. In REAL COMBAT,
they easily have the advantage over the boxer.
Give a boxer WC ability.. and that boxer will out-box most
any other boxer out there.
and
> that
> jiu jitsu ground positions are definitely not a part of WC.
I agree.
The
> posture of
> WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands are too low, weight is back on
> the
> heels, they have no viable defense against a boxing overhand or a
> hook,
Incorrect. Theres PLENTY. This shows your true lack of
REAL DEPTH to the system. Firstly, BECAUSE they are
on thier heels, they can fire that Lead leg off faster than
the jab - and take out the boxers leg long before a hook
ever comes into range. In fact, most all boxers punches lead
off the front leg being well out there.. and very easy to
target with the stomp kick.
As for hooks defense w/ hands.. you can use either:
1) cross hand PAK block. Stiff 190 degree locked. It works.
2) back up slightly w/ footwork
3) step in with a strike well before its ever in range..
4) many many more
Overhand is simular.. but you can use cutting angles
from the outside inwards... if its in good range *use
backup footwork. If not, a turning of the hips + use
underside of the forearm closest to elbow to deflect
while at the same time useing the other hand to strike.
Could kick as well if you wanted too.
Cross Slapping block also can be used.
Footwork is what you dont understand. Add it in conjunction
with the hand techniques and you completely change the lines
that you can pprotect and use. IIts that 'next level' that
you never attained or never saw anyone use properly.
Hands to LOW?! Your out of your mind again. They are in
mid range. Effective to protect both high and low gates
equally. Higg and mid levels most needed to be stopped.. and
low more able to be tooken without harm. Not to mention that
low blows are less effecient (slower cause its a longer
distance), so can be headed off and read
more easily.
*completely* out of position to deal with a shot. The list goes
> on. Tan sao and bong sao presume a WC type offense, and will get you
> knocked out.
Your out of your mind. First off.. BongSao AND Tan are more of
a transitional movment. NOT to be used as a STATIC block. This is
again.. your misunderstanding.. as well as many AMATURE WC guys.
Thrusting arm is more appropriate to interception of a
direct line strike to your center. And once contact occurs,
then you transtion into tan,grabs, heuns, and more.
You say: "Boxers rarely throw a perfectly straight line
strike" True. Thats where you add hip turning and footwork
to change things so that your techniques now match the correct
lines of usefull ability. IF THESE ARNT USED PROPERLY, then
WC WILL FAIL! This is why you see so many amatures getting
tossed to the ground as well as boxers punches breaking them
down easily. They DO NOT UNDERSTAND the real use of the
techniques.. just as YOU DO NOT.
> Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
> leaves
> your chin open, among other things.
All these techniques work the same.. you just dont realize
it all. Your not putting it all together. No matter if its
a punch, a pole, a ball attached to a rope swung in a circle..
its ALL the same. The science is still there.. The intercept
lines still all work.
As for the chin comment... If your being grabbed with one
hand by a WC guy, hes most likely hitting you at the same time
with the ohther.. which means theres no fear of the opening.
Not to mention, that A GOOD WC guy takes down defenses before
making a committed opening. All moves are checked with ballances
so that there is almost no chance for an opening, and if
any are open, they cant be exploited.
I'll leave other aspects of phon
> sao
> alone, since it's an untenable range anyway. No head movement,
No need to move the head if you are blocking
correctly. Cutting the lines, and useing footwork, and you
rarely get hit.
> slipping,
> ducking, no change of level, etc.
Slipping is Eggaggerated and dengerous. Since we
do not OVERCOMMIT to a single move.. we do not need to
worry about the counter which has to be slippped.
Also , because we use hand techs to stop trouble,
again... there is no need to COMPROMISE our
stability.
Bobbing, and Bending is the a BAD thing. It not only puts your
ballance off.. It opens various soft tagets to exposure and
easier range. It offers mechanical advantage of height to the
opposition. It takes more energy to perfrom. And much more.
Theres no need to Bob.. if you did your job well.
The kicks are upright and stilted,
> and
> lack power.
Well, theres another bit of newbie knowledge.
You must have watched and felt the amatures. Amatures
often do not use a 'GOOD' bent knee stance to deliver
the kicks properly.. thus resulting in slower, and MUCH
less power capability.
I almost broke a guys knee with a single kick at only
a fraction of the available power. My leg power, was
trained by kicking trees for hours at a time at full
strength and full speed. No, it wasnt a kick that
anyone would have considered weak. In fact, quite the
opposite.
The positioning of the feet and the rear weight added
to the deadly accuracy and lightning speeds of the kick..
as well as the ability to change direction and or use
the leg as a block instantly without any problems of
ballance or timing issues.
Vertical fist chain punches (jik chung choi) lack reach
> and power follow though, which is fine if someone stands there and
> lets you rat-a-tat-tat them in the head -- but nobody with any sense
> does.
Again, you show your lack of understanding.
Any good WC guy never just goes into a series of
chain punches to get the attack. Instead, he breaks down
defences, gets into a range without harm, and when is close
and there is no obstruction, strikes repeatedly.
If the person is very close *less than 1.5 ft.. they can
NOT back away from a 2 chain series. They cant move thier entire
body weight faster than 2 weighless fist traveling over 40ft per
second.
All it takes is 2 med level punches to start an effect.. Such
as a postureal bend, a slight dizzy, a slight pause..etc.. and that
sets up for more strikes. If there is ability to continue with
open strikes.. then one does. If not, then one changes to adapt with
alternate longer strikes such as thrusting fingers...etc... while
regaining range again.
Ive knocked a guy to see stars with a 2 hit volly very easily. They
were both only low to mid level power. At full power, a single strike
would have been more than enough. Possibly resulting in permanent
damages.
The point is.. you havent seen the True power of a person who
knows how the system is REALLY supposed to be used.. as well
as who trains the tools properly.
> But to the true believer it's like Ptolemaic astronomy. A simplistic
> and
> clean arrangement that's more of a design on reality than an
> observation of
> it. People like that kind of thing. Everybody needs a hobby.
The true Science is there. Draw it out, and it maps out
just fine and proovable.
The problem lies not in the system so much as the people
who do not understand the correct workings and underlying
scientific concepts.
> Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" reads much like the
> history
> of martial art. Ever notice how social factors within the 'martial
> arts community' do as much to drive the popularity of an art or the
> reasons for
> acceptance by adherents (or just plain "holding on" despite all
> evidence) as
> anything else.
>
> Funny how human nature itself holds back progress, but when has it
> ever been
> otherwise.
>
> Frank Benn
> IFA Academy
> Austin, TX
People can say that they dont believe in partical
physics because its much too complicated and long
winded.. But that doesnt really make any sence,
nor is it anywhere near truth.
Ego is abound on both sides of the coin here..
take a look into the mirror...
Lack of willingness to embrace new ideas is called
stubborness. Hurt of pride and egos...
Yet that doesnt change truth.
The truth is.. that theres much more depth to
what you are only seeing on the gimmicky 'surface'
of amature and bad/display.
Badger North
Fraser Johnston wrote:
> I am the go to man when a wall needs knocking down. My friends reckon I get an
> evil gleam in my eye with a sledgehammer.
There's a guy named Stuart MacLean, does a radio show here. Did a long
routine about a friend trying to run a line so he can install a new
outlet. MacLean talks about how whenever a man picks up a tool, every
other man in a certain radius suddenly gets an urge to grab a tool and
head over to his house.
"I can't believe you started without me. Hang on a second and I'll go
get a mallet."
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
Badger North
Herbert Cannon wrote:
> ">> Water closets?
> >
> > Yes. You've never seen three guys try to tackle a home-reno project?
>
> That is two too many.
You have installed the correct.
> > Badger "yes, I *am* in the process of renovating my bathroom, why do
> > you ask?" North
>
> Hope you dont have those damn 1.5 gal commodes the morons require here by
> law now.
I'm kinda fuzzy as to just how big 1.5 gal. is, but no, I've got a full
size tank - I can flush with confidence.
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"xiaou2" <xia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98825D86815B8...@24.24.2.167...
>
> The guys sounds like most people here. :P
<hilarity clipped>
Ok, who's up for a whip around for Xiaou2's trip to Texas?
Maybe we get some footage of him giving Frank punching and kicking lessons?
Oh, the humanity......
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:4sf2eeF...@mid.individual.net...
I can confirm this. The man has his own sledgehammer, fer Chrissakes.
Mr Destructo has a nice ring to it :)
Badger_s
>
> The guys sounds like most people here. :P
>
>
>> He sort of shrunk after I told him outright that WC is not the
>> ultimate "mixed martial art" he thinks it is, that the posture and
>> footwork alone
>> would get him knocked out by a club boxer with 6 months' training,
>
> THe posture and footwork have good advantage which
>aid to the defensive and offensive ability. In REAL COMBAT,
>they easily have the advantage over the boxer.
>
> Give a boxer WC ability.. and that boxer will out-box most
>any other boxer out there.
Sorry, Charley, saying it don't make it so. ;-)
What is this 'WC ability'? Ability to only drill? Ability to stand in an
unrealistic slant back goat clutching posture? Ability to have your chin up
and vulnerable to a punch? Ability to stand on one leg with hands too low?
>> and that jiu jitsu ground positions are definitely not a part of WC.
>
> I agree.
>
>
>> The posture of WC is stilted, the arms extended, hands are too low,
>> weight is back on the heels, they have no viable defense against a
>> boxing overhand or a hook,
>
>
> Incorrect. Theres PLENTY. This shows your true lack of
>REAL DEPTH to the system. Firstly, BECAUSE they are
>on thier heels, they can fire that Lead leg off faster than
>the jab - and take out the boxers leg long before a hook
>ever comes into range. In fact, most all boxers punches lead
>off the front leg being well out there.. and very easy to
>target with the stomp kick.
Thought we were talking boxers. Are you saying lifting that front leg is
essential? If so then how does that give a boxer an advantage? Don't most
WC guys say you can't use it in boxing because of the big gloves?
> As for hooks defense w/ hands.. you can use either:
>1) cross hand PAK block. Stiff 190 degree locked. It works.
>2) back up slightly w/ footwork
>3) step in with a strike well before its ever in range..
>4) many many more
It only works on anemic 'kung fu' hook punches where the arm is made into a
big C, palm down and arced in.
> Overhand is simular.. but you can use cutting angles
>from the outside inwards... if its in good range *use
>backup footwork. If not, a turning of the hips + use
>underside of the forearm closest to elbow to deflect
>while at the same time useing the other hand to strike.
>Could kick as well if you wanted too.
Again with the reaching out into space to pick off blows. Not a good
system.
> Cross Slapping block also can be used.
>
>Footwork is what you dont understand. Add it in conjunction
>with the hand techniques and you completely change the lines
>that you can pprotect and use. IIts that 'next level' that
>you never attained or never saw anyone use properly.
Dude, apparently NOBODY knows this version that you talk about and you are
unwilling or unable to take your show to an MMA gym and challenge any
current guys.
> Hands to LOW?! Your out of your mind again. They are in
>mid range. Effective to protect both high and low gates
>equally. Higg and mid levels most needed to be stopped.. and
>low more able to be tooken without harm. Not to mention that
>low blows are less effecient (slower cause its a longer
>distance), so can be headed off and read
>more easily.
That's too low.
>*completely* out of position to deal with a shot. The list goes
>> on. Tan sao and bong sao presume a WC type offense, and will get you
>> knocked out.
>
> Your out of your mind. First off.. BongSao AND Tan are more of
>a transitional movment. NOT to be used as a STATIC block. This is
>again.. your misunderstanding.. as well as many AMATURE WC guys.
Yep many, many, many WC guys. Uh, not sure what you mean by AMATURE(sic),
there are no professional WC guys.
> Thrusting arm is more appropriate to interception of a
>direct line strike to your center. And once contact occurs,
>then you transtion into tan,grabs, heuns, and more.
>
> You say: "Boxers rarely throw a perfectly straight line
>strike" True. Thats where you add hip turning and footwork
>to change things so that your techniques now match the correct
>lines of usefull ability. IF THESE ARNT USED PROPERLY, then
>WC WILL FAIL!
And it does fail. Nobody is demoing (there's that word again) any WC stuff
that succeeds against mid-level boxers. Even the few minutes of footage
from Gutierrez's guys trying to box doesn't look good.
>This is why you see so many amatures getting
>tossed to the ground as well as boxers punches breaking them
>down easily. They DO NOT UNDERSTAND the real use of the
>techniques.. just as YOU DO NOT.
Again, nobody apparently uses these 'Real' WC moves. And on this board you
have people who have studied with direct Yip Man students. (Duncan Leung)
>> Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
>> leaves your chin open, among other things.
>
> All these techniques work the same.. you just dont realize
>it all. Your not putting it all together. No matter if its
>a punch, a pole, a ball attached to a rope swung in a circle..
>its ALL the same. The science is still there.. The intercept
>lines still all work.
What about punching an actual opponent as in footage of WC fighting and
winning against any MMA guy or mid-level boxer?
> As for the chin comment... If your being grabbed with one
>hand by a WC guy, hes most likely hitting you at the same time
>with the ohther.. which means theres no fear of the opening.
>
> Not to mention, that A GOOD WC guy takes down defenses before
>making a committed opening. All moves are checked with ballances
>so that there is almost no chance for an opening, and if
>any are open, they cant be exploited.
Yet, where are these good WC guys?
> People can say that they dont believe in partical
>physics because its much too complicated and long
>winded.. But that doesnt really make any sence,
>nor is it anywhere near truth.
>
> Ego is abound on both sides of the coin here..
>take a look into the mirror...
Uh, Frank actually fights, spars his system. Your WC guys do not.
> Lack of willingness to embrace new ideas is called
>stubborness. Hurt of pride and egos...
>Yet that doesnt change truth.
Well the new idea here is that WC does not work.
> The truth is.. that theres much more depth to
>what you are only seeing on the gimmicky 'surface'
>of amature and bad/display.
Let's see an example. Since you are the only guy who 'gets it' then take
your video and go spar at an MMA school.
-B
Badger_s
>However, today, Im actually suprised at hom much
>it all makes sence. Even me with my limited
>vocabulary and overall mental capability.. can
>realize whats happening because of the real
>physical experience that I incurred over the years.
Well, let's hear it. Don't just paste whole webpages here about someone
else's laundry list of TMA arts.
> I surely couldnt explain what was said so
>elequantly as that.. but I 'might' be able to
>simplify it given some time. However... even
>so... would people really understand it
>on its simplest of its complex levels without
>physical demonstration and acutal usage/training?
Indeed, how to understand the endless theorizing found in TMA that doen't
spar.
> Maybe not even 40%... And even less than that consideing
>that most people minds are filled with rocks. (chosen
>ignorance perpetated by the EGO)
or Spelling? ;-D I hate to flame your spelling, but you're getting to the
point where I can't tell which word you're meaning.
>> Again, talking about the endless theorizing and 'what WC could do',
>> rather than actually testing it in alive sparring. If WC manages to do
>> that, then good for them. They've got some pretty good maxims, but
>> some of them are ridiculous.
>
> I do not believe Ive seen Benny Meng in action
>sadly. However, His knowledge is amazingly extensive..
>and so is his experience within multiple varients
>of the style.. as well as other styles such as
>Judo and Tae Kwan Do.
FRAT.
-B
lrc7
> > Against *me* this wouldn't work, and I would make Trav look like Danny
> > fucking Hodge. I've also never seen anyone keel over from a front kick
> > to the shin before.
>
> Where was that?
>
At roughly the 33, 40, and 45 second marks. I assume they're supposed
to be directed at the knee, which I don't believe is going to be any
more effective.
lrc7
I admittedly haven't yet subjected that fight to the obsessive level of
review to which I'm accustomed, so I'm forced to ask - at exactly what
point did GSP drop Hughes with a front kick to the shin?
Lee Casebolt
Chas
> I admittedly haven't yet subjected that fight to the obsessive level of
> review to which I'm accustomed, so I'm forced to ask - at exactly what
> point did GSP drop Hughes with a front kick to the shin?
Second round, wasn't it? I don't have the fight archived, so I can't make a
reference.
St. Pierre kicks to Hughes' left leg, ims; Hughes goes down, GSP hangs back,
Hughes gets back up.
Chas
Wayne Dobson
Kicks to the knee-joint can cause the leg to buckle. The video looks
blurry, but at 00:33 it looks like a kick from the side and a pull forward
and down. Reminding me of Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
[http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sasaetsurikomiashi.htm]
Badger_s
wrote:
Yeah, sorry Chas, I saved a version and both kicks land with GSP's shin to
the mid point of Hughes inner upper thigh. Nothing lands on Hughe's shin.
Not a big deal, just clarifying. ;-)
-B
Chas
> Yeah, sorry Chas, I saved a version and both kicks land with GSP's shin to
> the mid point of Hughes inner upper thigh. Nothing lands on Hughe's shin.
Oh, ok-
Hughes really doesn't deal with kicks well- giving or getting.
Chas
Badger_s
wrote:
<Nods>
Up until now everyone's been reluctant to throw too many kicks at him (or
didn't get the chance) because of his takedown skills. Guess he needs to
train with some better kickers, get outside the Miletich camp where
everyone knows him and gives him too much respect.
-B
Chas
> Up until now everyone's been reluctant to throw too many kicks at him (or
> didn't get the chance) because of his takedown skills.
All in the timing-
GSP has good kicking skills- and as that's the furthest range in which to
engage an enemy, it's the first thing one has to deal with in confronting
him.
> Guess he needs to
> train with some better kickers, get outside the Miletich camp where
> everyone knows him and gives him too much respect.
Well, we do know that Cho's produces exemplary fighters, ranging from
Cassius Clay to Elvis.
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
lrc7
Matter of perspective - he usually "deals with them" by lifting the
would-be kicker high into the air and delivering them forcefully to the
ground. Of course, if the kicker in question has good distancing and
takedown defense... Well, Matt gets kicked a lot in that case.
And yes, his kicks are not good.
(My point was not to disparage kicks in general, or even leg kicks -
just *those* kicks.)
lrc7
Wayne Dobson wrote:
> > At roughly the 33, 40, and 45 second marks. I assume they're supposed
> > to be directed at the knee, which I don't believe is going to be any
> > more effective.
>
> Kicks to the knee-joint can cause the leg to buckle. The video looks
> blurry, but at 00:33 it looks like a kick from the side and a pull forward
> and down. Reminding me of Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi
> [http://www.judoinfo.com/images/nauta/sasaetsurikomiashi.htm]
I'm a big fan of kicking the side or back of the knee. It's the
frontal attack I find questionable (to put it politely), and that
seemed to be a frequent part of the demo.
I'm willing to take your word for the first example; it's simply less
painful than watching that clip again.
jmdra...@yahoo.com
Badger_s wrote:
> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or information
> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>
> Such is the case with WC.
>
>
> This article talks about the three phases of martial awareness, a red flag
> that someone has overanalyzed the event with insufficient information and
> precious little experience in fighting.
>
> It initially sounds good saying stage one is the awareness of yourself in
> space, two is the awareness of the opponent. The third stage, however:
>
> "Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one's
> parts within defined space"
>
> What? Clearly gobbledygook.
Regardless of what you think of WC I'm surprised that you're bothered
by a discussion of time wrt martial arts. In any athletic activity
timing
is everything. Mohammed Ali could easily avoid getting hit in the
early
days because he had excellent timing. Check out this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlRPDhuX1DY
Notice the superior timing of the WC fighter. Please note. I'm not
saying that ALL WC fighters have good timing. But this one does, and
it shows.
> The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
> and width and focal points.
>
> But fighting is not like that. In fighting we simplify. We hit the opponent
> and he hits back. We use footwork not strange concepts of time and space
> and gates defined by the arms and body. The mind does calculations and
> timing in a free flow and does not have to involve some mathematic
> construct. (note the 'Inner Game of Tennis'). When you pull out into
> traffic you are not aware of the sophisticated math your brain is doing to
> judge the closing speed of cars.
True. But someone else analyzing what happened in an accident might
use sophisticated math. I don't think the author was saying that you
needed to do mental calculus in order to fight. But certainly one can
speed up or slow down their timing in order to control facets of a
fight.
For instance the pratice of "broken rhythm." Sometimes the best way
to land a combination is to "slow down" the rhythm for a second while
your opponent overparries. Sometimes you might start slow then
instantly "speed up" once you've got him set in a rhythm. Yes,
fighting
is simple. But that doesn't mean you can't use strategy.
> In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
> of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
> move, find and create openings.
False concept of geometry? Geometry is geometry. And geometry
applies in "modern" arts such as BJJ just as well as it does in
traditional arts. How many times will you hear a wrestling coach
telling his student to "square up and circle"? Those are geometric
terms. And sure, a student might "figure this out" on his own, but
he might learn more quickly by listening to his coach.
> Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
> figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
>
> -B
Maybe, maybe not. Have you visited this school? Have to even seen
any videos of them working out? Certainly if ALL they do is read
internet articles then they won't be able to fight. ;) But if they
train realistically ALONG with thinking about theory and strategy
in between training times then that can't hurt. It can't be any worse
that wasting time posting at RMA. ;)
Regards,
John M. Drake
trav...@aol.com
>
> Ok, who's up for a whip around for Xiaou2's trip to Texas?
>
> Maybe we get some footage of him giving Frank punching and kicking lessons?
>
> Oh, the humanity......
>
> --
> GDS
>
> " Let's roll! "
Frank Benn by bitchslap, :02 round 1.
Trav
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
<pwnage by BadgerS clipped>
> Let's see an example. Since you are the only guy who 'gets it' then take
> your video and go spar at an MMA school.
Hey mate, I'll tell you his response before he makes it. He's 'retired'
now....after seven gruelling years of hitting air and wooden dummies.
He also hurt some guy with a kick in a backyard fight that put him off inflicting
damage on anyone.
Xiaou2 lecturing Frank Benn........how abso-fucking-lutely hilarious is this, eh?
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Herbert Cannon" <hcan...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:oFn8h.6277$7G4....@newsfe22.lga...
>
>> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or information
>> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
>> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
>> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>>
>> Such is the case with WC.
>>
You have a potty-mouth, Herb.
xiaou2
> Thought we were talking boxers. Are you saying lifting that front leg
> is essential? If so then how does that give a boxer an advantage?
> Don't most WC guys say you can't use it in boxing because of the big
> gloves?
I believe we were talking about technique.. and weather a boxer
had a chance against a WC fighter in non sport combat.
Boxing strengths "In the Ring" are huge weaknesses Outside
the ring. They tend to drop all thier weight on it when
throwing big punches.. which sets up some very powerfull
strikes... however, it leaves the leg in a very bad
position to be struck. And with all that weight sitting there,
it compounds the damages... and keeps the boxer from being able
to move in time should he even realize he needs to. His punch
wont even be close to impact distance as the stomp kick disables
him to the ground.
WCs ability to punch with the weight on the rear, yet still have
full body power.. or to shift weight to the front to back in split
second speeds, gives it advantage of more protection in real combat.
Esp important is the ability to pick up the front leg at ANY
moment in combat.. to use as a weapon, or defence. Most other
forward weighted styles have major problems with this. They
lose precious timing and ability because in order to be able to
use the front leg that they are set upon.. they have to first
rock back all the weight in order to throw it. If they
had left the leg without weight.. they could have thrown in 3
times as fast, with more stability and power.
>> As for hooks defense w/ hands.. you can use either:
>>1) cross hand PAK block. Stiff 190 degree locked. It works.
>>2) back up slightly w/ footwork
>>3) step in with a strike well before its ever in range..
>>4) many many more
>
> It only works on anemic 'kung fu' hook punches where the arm is made
> into a big C, palm down and arced in.
Incorrect. Ive tested this Full power, Full speed against
Many non WC guys. Very strong and BIG guys... because I wanted
to make sure it worked. Im a small guy.. so I NEED things to work!..
which is why I always test them to make sure.
Im guessing you do not quite get the placement and realization
of the actual technique. OR - you are thinking of the other
technique which is used for low power only...
Many fighters when blocking.. use the same side to block with
as the oppoent throws. Its instinctual.. and fast. However..
its also too Weak in structure and can easily fail. This is
the technique you are refering to:
Guy throws left hook...
You throw right hand tech
Equals =
low power = you do fine.
high power = your arm collapses and you get clocked.
-----------
Instead.. change to this:
-----------
Guy throws left hook...
You throw left palm up block w/ hip turned to face it sideways.
Your palm stops his arm at any point between the mid forearm
to the wrist.
Since your now using your Entire structure against him
with proper leverage.. you can easily stop his force.
Now.. some WC guys will say.. OHH thats poor WC because
you expose your left side to the attacker...
Well, you can generally tell if you need to use this
tech because of the guys stepping pattern and weight
distribution, and you only use it if its a full power
committed hook.
Otherwise you can use alternate techs.
If the hook is only med in force, your waist doesnt have
to turn as much.. you your only in a 45 degree or less angle
away from faceing.
And, even at up to 90 degrees.. for such a powerfull blow,
it takes the boxer a good deal of recovery time. This gives
you well more than ample time to turn from left block, to
left strike to the head + other followups.
Btw - I only realized this one... because an incredible
Kungfu stylist showed me my error. He has over 7 differing
styles under his belt... and is nearly untouchable. I had
the pleasure of the great pains after sparring him :)
>> Overhand is simular.. but you can use cutting angles
>>from the outside inwards... if its in good range *use
>>backup footwork. If not, a turning of the hips + use
>>underside of the forearm closest to elbow to deflect
>>while at the same time useing the other hand to strike.
>>Could kick as well if you wanted too.
>
> Again with the reaching out into space to pick off blows. Not a good
> system.
Says who?
When someone whacks at you with a stick.. do you try to
catch it with your bare hands? Do you try to dive at his legs
hopeing he doesnt crack your skull on the way in?
Get real man.
Think of your arms as sticks -vs- sticks. You use them to
make contact, feel direction (simular to tug-if-war tricks),
manipulate (smack stick out of way, circle arround stick,
use of dual sticks doing 2 differing things on two
different lines, use of one stick to trap while hitting
with the free stick, etc)
This is Smart fighting.
------------------------------------
Here is Dumb fighting:
1) Swing opening expecting to get a score.
The error here.. is that you expect or HOPE that
the guy wont be able to cover up that opening in
time for your strike to land. However, 98% of
the time, its gona get blocked. Same goes
for hand to hand combat.
--------------------------------------------
Smart Fighter:
Throw punch expecting not to hit opponent.. but
to make them block it. Slightly out of range (for WC).. but
convincing enough for reaction. Could actually
land if you 'over-reached'.. but you do not.
When they make contact with
your arm.. you now know where thier weapon is. You can
use that against them. Its a HUGE advantage to have your
enemys weapon sitting there next to yours rather than
recoiled and ready to fire in an unknown direction and
time.
From that contact would flow a variety of destructive
manipulations... and even if any of them fail.. eventually,
you make your way "Safely" into combat ranges.. Trappping
and using leverage to keep you safe, while still able to
strike at will.
-----------------
> Dude, apparently NOBODY knows this version that you talk about and you
> are unwilling or unable to take your show to an MMA gym and challenge
> any current guys.
I believe many do.. but are not overly public with such things.
High level players do not need to impress nor hurt others
to show off. It does happen on occassion.. but who would
believe it :P
In some ways, it does make me wonder about certain teachers.
Many in the media spotlight seem to be the least capable
or at least, teach incorrectly.
But its pure science here that shows true application.
One things for sure.. A lot of the Good teachers are withholding
things Imop. But again, to anyone who goes out there to
actually fight with it, you realize whats up very quickly.
The sad fact seems to be.. that since WC is fairly easy
to learn a good deal of it in so little of time.. that many
quit the art unfinished and unpolished. This leads to
improper ideas.
Also, since it originated from China only recently, its
my impression that many important things were mistranslated
or not brought over.. forgotten..etc. by many instructors.
Remember that the real butter of Any style is the
core "whys". The reasonings. The explained theories and
rules.. and why things are done certain ways. This, while
most important.
To go in and try to chain punch your opponent down in
an instant will outcome in a bad situation. Knowing
the theory about how entry system is supposed to work would
save such a person an embarressing and painfull lesson.
> That's too low.
Always worked for me. Only weakness was sometimes not
gaurding the low gate. I rarely ever took a face hit, yet
more often got hit by a mid level (low gate) kick.
> Yep many, many, many WC guys. Uh, not sure what you mean by
> AMATURE(sic), there are no professional WC guys.
Well, I guess by that.. I mean WC people who have not
progressed thru the entire system.. and or did get it.
Also, Professional means that you get paid for what
you do. Not to say that all those guys who are getting
paid are actually professionals :(
>> Thrusting arm is more appropriate to interception of a
>>direct line strike to your center. And once contact occurs,
>>then you transtion into tan,grabs, heuns, and more.
>>
>> You say: "Boxers rarely throw a perfectly straight line
>>strike" True. Thats where you add hip turning and footwork
>>to change things so that your techniques now match the correct
>>lines of usefull ability. IF THESE ARNT USED PROPERLY, then
>>WC WILL FAIL!
>
> And it does fail. Nobody is demoing (there's that word again) any WC
> stuff that succeeds against mid-level boxers. Even the few minutes of
> footage from Gutierrez's guys trying to box doesn't look good.
Well, lets start out by saying that most thugs arent pro
boxers. But even so... Even IF they are incredible,
WC does have the advantage. Just because you havent seen
it happen doesnt mean it doesnt exist nor work.
The science can easily be seen.. and I have tested
these against full power strikes of the boxing nature. Im
sure Im not the only one.
Believe it or not.. many GOOD people are not hooked into
the internet, taping thier demos, etc. Many of them
just dont have the time.. as they are actually training
or teaching... or having a 'life'. heh
>>This is why you see so many amatures getting
>>tossed to the ground as well as boxers punches breaking them
>>down easily. They DO NOT UNDERSTAND the real use of the
>>techniques.. just as YOU DO NOT.
>
> Again, nobody apparently uses these 'Real' WC moves. And on this board
> you have people who have studied with direct Yip Man students. (Duncan
> Leung)
Maybe they are protecting thier interest. Maybe they didnt
yet 'get it'. Maybe that havent finished training. Maybe they
havent sparred non wc. More than likly.. they just know
its futile to try to convince non WC players.. and or
they just rahter lurk, and or actually have a life. heh
One things for sure.. Anything you have seen on the
internet of WC is only a small fraction of the reality out
there. (and mostly just demo crap anyway)
There are millions of players worldwide.
>>> Pak sao and jut sao presume an arm position similar to WC. Lop sao
>>> leaves your chin open, among other things.
>>
>> All these techniques work the same.. you just dont realize
>>it all. Your not putting it all together. No matter if its
>>a punch, a pole, a ball attached to a rope swung in a circle..
>>its ALL the same. The science is still there.. The intercept
>>lines still all work.
>
> What about punching an actual opponent as in footage of WC fighting
> and winning against any MMA guy or mid-level boxer?
Footage of fights? That would be rare... considering a
real WC street fight might last 5 seconds. Many cameras
dont even turn on that fast.
Are you talking net footage? Cause the net stuff you see
is Not fighting.. Its the drills which teach flow. Not
actual combat. This is a common misconception amoung
non wc players. Mistaking demo and training material
for actual combat movment 'sequences'.
A WC guy might fight a boxer (my sifu had), but that
doesnt mean he taped it and plastered it on the
net. Its called respect.
Also, while WC can work well against them, it wouldnt
show TRUE wc.. because you have to limit many techniques
and ways of doing things properly. This causes a huge
differnece in appearance, usablility, effectiveness..etc.
> Yet, where are these good WC guys?
Where are all the good scrabble players? Playing
scrabble maybe? Maybe they are living life as usual,
waiting for the day that someone comes over to
challenge them to a death match scrabble-off. :P
Gary Lam's a pretty good player.. I could dig
up more names.. but really, I could care less.
Ive seen good and bad things from even the best of
players..
But with that exposure, Ive also gained a greater
perspecitive, and learned to differentiate
between the variations from player to player
and style to style.. And learned to put together the
missing puzzle pieces into a much more complete and
true package.
(reversing degredation of style)
> Uh, Frank actually fights, spars his system. Your WC guys do not.
First off.. they arent 'MY' anything.
Next.. WC sparring is very different from average
sparring.. in that you actually get more skills from
it rahter than useless injuries for no good reason.
However, sparring on a heavy level Does take
place.. at the highest levels. Not all, players
stick arround to that level.
And finally, sparring Hardcore is the responsibility
of the individual. Yes, outside of class in many cases.
Besides.. what better place to test your skills but
against others who fight different than you. This is
something that any matial artist did in the past.. yet
today, its expected that the schools hold your dick while
you piss. If you want to learn to fight.. you go out there
and fight. How easy is that?!
You dont thing that if a boxer wanted to learn how
to better gaurd against a martial artist that they
would and should go ask to sparr them?
Any good martial artist knows this without saying it.
> Let's see an example. Since you are the only guy who 'gets it' then
> take your video and go spar at an MMA school.
Ive long since been out of the loop and am not
in proper shape anymore to show things as crisp
and proper as Id want them to be seen.
Maybe later when I get things tooken care of...
as lately Ive had the misfortune of bad health :(
After getting the Gall bladder removed a few months
back... they now found a growth on the thyroid :(
Getting a biopsy dec 20th. That in addition to another
unknown issue which is draining all my energy away..
and causing some other nasty symptoms.
Sadly, not a copout.. but a hard hitting reality.
You can be as badass as hell.. but a simple malfunction
can claim your life internally, on its own.
Life is the most precious of gifts,
enjoy every single
breath...
Steve
xiaou2
>
> Well, let's hear it. Don't just paste whole webpages here about someone
> else's laundry list of TMA arts.
In time, I may. Depends on my available time and weather I wish to
spend it on others who may or may not appreciate it.
> Indeed, how to understand the endless theorizing found in TMA that doen't
> spar.
These are not just theories.. but already developed rules.
As for sparring, its a different type of it.. but there is both
random sparring as well as full speed and high power
matches. But as Ive stated.. go outside and sparr with non wc
for the experience. Its not hard to do.. and its what anyone of
the ancient times would have done.
> or Spelling? ;-D I hate to flame your spelling, but you're getting to the
> point where I can't tell which word you're meaning.
Sorry.. my time is too limited.. and my typing isnt the fastest..
Im not a great speller.. but what makes it worse
(as noted in that example) , is when my
keyboard doesnt register a key. I have no time to go back and
re-read and correct my mistakes.. as it is, I got less than
5hrs sleep cause the last late night posting.
I, unlike many here.. do no longer have an Internet job
or connection at work. I have about 6hrs to play here
when I get home.. and I do not spend it all here for sure :P
I guess much like getting taught incorectly, you must
try to figure out my menaings (did that on
purpose :P ) by context and fitting what makes
sence in there... :P heh
Badger_s
> Maybe later when I get things tooken care of...
>as lately Ive had the misfortune of bad health :(
>
> After getting the Gall bladder removed a few months
>back... they now found a growth on the thyroid :(
>Getting a biopsy dec 20th. That in addition to another
>unknown issue which is draining all my energy away..
>and causing some other nasty symptoms.
>
> Sadly, not a copout.. but a hard hitting reality.
>You can be as badass as hell.. but a simple malfunction
>can claim your life internally, on its own.
>
>Life is the most precious of gifts,
>enjoy every single
>breath...
>
>
>Steve
So sorry to hear about that Steve. Hope it turns out to be benign. Take
care.
-B
Wayne Dobson
>
> Maybe later when I get things tooken care of...
> as lately Ive had the misfortune of bad health :(
>
> After getting the Gall bladder removed a few months
> back... they now found a growth on the thyroid :(
> Getting a biopsy dec 20th. That in addition to another
> unknown issue which is draining all my energy away..
> and causing some other nasty symptoms.
Some serious advice to you is, if you haven't already done it, to cut all
processed foods out of your diet, move to vegetables, oily fishes and
organic food sources. Investigate natural cures. All sorts of diseases are
linked to low energy levels.
Fraser Johnston
<trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164144605....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> <hilarity clipped>
>>
>> Ok, who's up for a whip around for Xiaou2's trip to Texas?
>>
>> Maybe we get some footage of him giving Frank punching and kicking lessons?
>>
>> Oh, the humanity......
>>
>> --
>> GDS
>>
>> " Let's roll! "
>
> Frank Benn by bitchslap, :02 round 1.
That would so unfair it would be like Fedor fighting a premature baby.
Fraser
Fraser Johnston
Jerry B. Altzman
> Maybe later when I get things tooken care of...
> as lately Ive had the misfortune of bad health :(
> After getting the Gall bladder removed a few months
> back... they now found a growth on the thyroid :(
> Getting a biopsy dec 20th. That in addition to another
> unknown issue which is draining all my energy away..
> and causing some other nasty symptoms.
Yow.
Best wishes for a full recovery.
> Steve
//jbaltz
--
jerry b. altzman jba...@altzman.com www.jbaltz.com
thank you for contributing to the heat death of the universe.
Badger North
xiaou2 wrote:
> After getting the Gall bladder removed a few months
> back... they now found a growth on the thyroid :(
> Getting a biopsy dec 20th. That in addition to another
> unknown issue which is draining all my energy away..
> and causing some other nasty symptoms.
Dude, take care of yourself.
My wife has thyroid problems, and at least for her, that's what was
draining her energy - made it friggin' impossible for her to do
anything, and when she did, it'd wreck her for the rest of the day.
All of this was when she was still "sub-clinical" (in other words, she
didn't meet the criteria for treatment). When her numbers finally did
register high enough, and she was prescribed meds, the results were
damn near magical.
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
jmdra...@yahoo.com
Badger_s wrote:
> Yeah, sorry Chas, I saved a version and both kicks land with GSP's shin to
> the mid point of Hughes inner upper thigh. Nothing lands on Hughe's shin.
>
> Not a big deal, just clarifying. ;-)
>
> -B
I think both of those shots accidently hit Matt in the groin.
According to
the commentator the shin hit the thigh, but the ankle whipped around
and
hit the groin area. I thought these guys wore cups?
Regards,
John M. Drake
Chas
> I think both of those shots accidently hit Matt in the groin.
> According to
> the commentator the shin hit the thigh, but the ankle whipped around
> and
> hit the groin area. I thought these guys wore cups?
They do, but a groin shot is enough to shut you down even if you're armored
and it's just accidental contact.
The illusion of safety, wearing armor and agreeing not to target the groin,
allows competitors to do things they could never do in the real. They fight
with their legs wide; don't protect their groin from attack- depend on the
referee to give them time to recover and continue fighting.
And the kick I'm talking about knocked Hughes off his feet- it wasn't one of
the groin kicks.
Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
Badger_s
wrote:
><jmdra...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> I think both of those shots accidently hit Matt in the groin.
>> According to
>> the commentator the shin hit the thigh, but the ankle whipped around
>> and
>> hit the groin area. I thought these guys wore cups?
>
>They do, but a groin shot is enough to shut you down even if you're armored
>and it's just accidental contact.
Not to dispute you but it depends, sometimes on things like time of day,
lol. Groin shots in the middle of the night really hurt, as during uh,
relations. During sparring, middle of the day, they don't hurt as much and
a full on shot might not hurt as much as just a sideswipe. I've been hit
glancing shots in sparring and not had to stop and that's not wearing a cup
just tight underwear.
>The illusion of safety, wearing armor and agreeing not to target the groin,
>allows competitors to do things they could never do in the real. They fight
>with their legs wide; don't protect their groin from attack- depend on the
>referee to give them time to recover and continue fighting.
Yes but they could make adjustments for that if it were to become legal.
Ever wonder why during the UFC 1-3 nobody (exceping Hackney) targetted the
groin? Why not just kick Royce there? I wonder if it's just that guys are
reluctant to do that to fellow competitors?
>And the kick I'm talking about knocked Hughes off his feet- it wasn't one of
>the groin kicks.
>Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
Didja notice the little switch step that GSP used to get that kick in? Very
nice.
-B
jmdra...@yahoo.com
Chas wrote:
> <jmdra...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > I think both of those shots accidently hit Matt in the groin.
> > According to
> > the commentator the shin hit the thigh, but the ankle whipped around
> > and
> > hit the groin area. I thought these guys wore cups?
>
> They do, but a groin shot is enough to shut you down even if you're armored
> and it's just accidental contact.
> The illusion of safety, wearing armor and agreeing not to target the groin,
> allows competitors to do things they could never do in the real. They fight
> with their legs wide; don't protect their groin from attack- depend on the
> referee to give them time to recover and continue fighting.
What? Next you'll be telling me that a solid throat strike could hurt
someone. ;-) Seriously, all good points.
> And the kick I'm talking about knocked Hughes off his feet- it wasn't one of
> the groin kicks.
> Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
> --
> Chas
Are you talking about the kick in the second round that swept Matt's
ankle? That one was set up well.
Regards,
John M. Drake
Chas
> Not to dispute you but it depends, sometimes on things like time of day,
> lol.
That's completely different from a targeted hit- much less with follow-ups.
> Ever wonder why during the UFC 1-3 nobody (exceping Hackney) targetted the
> groin? Why not just kick Royce there? I wonder if it's just that guys are
> reluctant to do that to fellow competitors?
Sure- the range of what you'll do in sport, and what you're prepared to do
in a mortal situation are completely different.
> Didja notice the little switch step that GSP used to get that kick in?
> Very
> nice.
Very slick-
I like the Canadian approach- all of them can kick, punch and grapple very
effectively. They make you win every inch of ground.
good stuff.
Chas
Chas
> Are you talking about the kick in the second round that swept Matt's
> ankle? That one was set up well.
Yeah; probably that one- and yes, it was very slick.
Chas
trav...@aol.com
> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:11:39 GMT, xiaou2 <xia...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is this 'WC ability'? Ability to only drill? Ability to stand in an
> unrealistic slant back goat clutching posture? Ability to have your chin up
> and vulnerable to a punch? Ability to stand on one leg with hands too low?
The worst part about it is how they take their heads backward as they
come in. They're afraid to get hit. Moving your head back makes you
very vulnerable and robs punching power. One of the things that makes
boxers actually able to actualize the skill is that they unlearn the
flinch reflex. They avoid getting hit thru the use of the bob and
weave, i.e, they are using a 3D movement scheme for the head instead of
the 1D wing cunt approach.
Anyone can watch that felony fights vid w/ the hispanic dude fighting
the white guy w/ the tats who said he stabbed someone in jail and see
this. Cholo kept his chin down, head forward, came in, even maybe ate
a strike. The white guy took his head back as he threw, which is a
natural thing for people to do, and consequently, had immense postural
defect and got RIZZOCKED.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> They do, but a groin shot is enough to shut you down even if you're armored
> and it's just accidental contact.
> The illusion of safety, wearing armor and agreeing not to target the groin,
> allows competitors to do things they could never do in the real. They fight
> with their legs wide; don't protect their groin from attack- depend on the
> referee to give them time to recover and continue fighting.
> And the kick I'm talking about knocked Hughes off his feet- it wasn't one of
> the groin kicks.
> Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
...to a guy w/ a purple belt in BJJ, tons of wrestling experience, and
heavy hands and feet from kickboxing.
IOW, wtf good is any weapon if you lack a delivery platform? GSP is
skilled in all ranges. Therefore, his opponents have to respect all of
them.
What this is showing is that the MMA fighters are better at doing TKD
than TKD experts. No TKD expert, nor silat pirate, could have ever
actualized these techniques on Matt Hughes. Many have tried and all
failed. GSP is a multidimensional fighter. TKD, BJJ, pure wrestlers,
are all one dimensional. Therefore, they are vulnerable.
Trav
Badger_s
<trav...@aol.com> wrote:
>Badger_s wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:11:39 GMT, xiaou2 <xia...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What is this 'WC ability'? Ability to only drill? Ability to stand in an
>> unrealistic slant back goat clutching posture? Ability to have your chin up
>> and vulnerable to a punch? Ability to stand on one leg with hands too low?
>
>The worst part about it is how they take their heads backward as they
>come in. They're afraid to get hit. Moving your head back makes you
>very vulnerable and robs punching power. One of the things that makes
>boxers actually able to actualize the skill is that they unlearn the
>flinch reflex. They avoid getting hit thru the use of the bob and
>weave, i.e, they are using a 3D movement scheme for the head instead of
>the 1D wing cunt approach.
Nice analy.
The idea WC has is to have the head back out of range of the opponent with
the whole tilt-body. It might work with other tiny Chinese CLF fighters or
your next-door neighbor's kid.
Head down boxing, hands up, head movement 3-D requires/builds the shoulder
and neck muscles, ties in with hip torque well. You get tired and your
hands drop. What happens when WC gets tired?
WC as it's currently practiced, is mostly arm and triceps, though the
advanced guys try to work in a spring-hip wave movement.
Even BL who was a lot faster than most guys had to spend extraordinary time
building up his abs and hips and upper body to even begin to make WC work
against bigger guys. Most of the current WC guys aren't doing that.
Every time you see WC come up it's trying to do something to prop up the
style. In Germany they added Latosa FMA, in other places they add other
styles. One book I came across in my storage boxes was by a guy who added
MT, and White Crane (and Chin-Na) and calling it Sun Tzu Kuen.
Those guys need to either step it up or drop it, b/c by itself, WC isn't
cutting it. Guys, we know how to punch straight and give/take centerline.
It's time to move on into the 21st Century already. ;-)
-B
Chas
>> Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
> ...to a guy w/ a purple belt in BJJ, tons of wrestling experience, and
> heavy hands and feet from kickboxing.
He commanded the kicking range-
all the rest of it is irrelevant if his opponent can't deal with the kicking
range.
And Hughes couldn't.
Hughes' strengths obtain when you've lost the kicking range fight.
> IOW, wtf good is any weapon if you lack a delivery platform? GSP is
> skilled in all ranges. Therefore, his opponents have to respect all of
> them.
Yup; the kicking range first.
> What this is showing is that the MMA fighters are better at doing TKD
> than TKD experts.
The mma fighters that start in tkd seem to have an advantage over those that
start on the shortest range.
> No TKD expert, nor silat pirate, could have ever
> actualized these techniques on Matt Hughes.
He did; GSP was a TKD 'expert' long before he was successful in other
sports.
A 'silat pirate' would have killed him in his dressing room.
> Many have tried and all
> failed. GSP is a multidimensional fighter. TKD, BJJ, pure wrestlers,
> are all one dimensional. Therefore, they are vulnerable.
Sure; at kicking range first.
xiaou2
news:1164206065.9...@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
Thanks Badger North.
When the nurse examined me, and asked if there
were Thyroid problems in the family... I had no
clue what a Thyroid was...
After looking over all the symtoms on the net,
they match my situation to precision. If
only I had realized this way earlier in life :(
Sad but most likly, I will also have to become
near vegetative before Doc considers meds. This
is quite a sad state to be in.. and sad that
people have to go thru because the Doctors are
stubborn to accept that thier regulated readings
of 'low - normal' are really Too low for
different people.
When I look back over the years.. I can see the
pattern of my degredation. Very gradual, but
drastic comparted from then till now. I always
figured it was premature old age effects..
yet Im only 33.. and people
much older have much more energy levels... which
pissed me off, depressed me, and made me feel
there was no hope for any sort of normal existence.
I actually went in because of low sex drive and
related issues. I thought Id just get v-pills
and go on my way. The first doc said he thought
it might be something else.. So refered me to
specialist.
The specialist wants to get a brain
scan to see if there are 'short circuits' in
there.. causing problems with levels and things.
Sadly, that wont take place till after the new year.
Of course the nurse finding the bump at the
pre-screening process really hit me hard.
Luckily,
according to net research, they say thyroid cancer is
pretty rare, and very treatable. Its just depressing
that I may have to go thru another operation so
soon.
I just hope that someday in the near future, Ill
be back to a form of normalcy thats at least tolerable.
As it stands, my energy level is so bad now.. that going
shopping is just about a 'day ender' for me :(
http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidbasicsthyroid101/l/blthyroid2.htm
Thanks to all for the support and kind words,
And to those who celebrate it, have a
Wonderfull Turkey Day :)
Wannabe
I am sorry to hear about your gall bladder operation and your thyroid
problem. I hope your biopsy will show you merely lack iodine in your
diet.
As for your sex-drive, you may try to borrow the DVD from the Chinese
that solved the low sex-drive problems for their giant pandas:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-11/23/content_5367772.htm
Wannabe
=======
xiaou2
news:sp89m2trrqemf9n5l...@4ax.com:
> On 22 Nov 2006 11:00:18 -0800, "trav...@aol.cominyrface"
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Badger_s wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 14:11:39 GMT, xiaou2 <xia...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> What is this 'WC ability'? Ability to only drill? Ability to stand
>>> in an unrealistic slant back goat clutching posture? Ability to have
>>> your chin up and vulnerable to a punch? Ability to stand on one leg
>>> with hands too low?
>>
>>The worst part about it is how they take their heads backward as they
>>come in. They're afraid to get hit. Moving your head back makes you
>>very vulnerable and robs punching power. One of the things that makes
>>boxers actually able to actualize the skill is that they unlearn the
>>flinch reflex. They avoid getting hit thru the use of the bob and
>>weave, i.e, they are using a 3D movement scheme for the head instead
>>of the 1D wing cunt approach.
>
> Nice analy.
>
> The idea WC has is to have the head back out of range of the opponent
> with the whole tilt-body. It might work with other tiny Chinese CLF
> fighters or your next-door neighbor's kid.
First off, you both are incorrect if you say that
WC tilts the head back and or leans excessively backwards
when fighting.
This is an illusion, or is shown done by someone who is
doing somethiing wrong.
Look Here:
http://www.teamwingchun.co.uk/images/photoshoot2/bj1.jpg
Draw a straight line down from the center of the
guys head, thru the hips, etc.. and you can see that
all is in allignment.
WCs posture is such that the center
of gravity is put in a very balanced position.
The rear leg bent, to act as a shock absorber..
helps to keep ballance by absorbing jostle forces.
It also provides more effeciency, because you do
not have to raise and lower your body when moving
and throwing kicks. It then also provides more
power, because of its greater solidity and
buckle-resisting properties.
Not having to bounce also increases the speed
you can generate in less time units.. which of
course Speed equates to more power generation.
The forward limbs, helps to keep
the opponent away from you.. as well as act as
'buglike feelers'. They incercept strikes
well before in range, and re-direct and change
them on the fly.
One hand in front, and one hand
at the rear.. means that if the front arm
fails, the rear arm/hand will be the backup.
The defense is likened to double missile
launchers, double sheilds, or maybe better:
two Pit Bulls stationed 30 feet appart, gaurding your
front door.
The front leg being the 3rd pitbull which mostly
bites any leg that nears it.
The front leg is without weight, so it can
move as fast as your hands doing Lightning Jabs
(non telegraphic, hard to see it, even harder to
escape its path in the needed time)
... moves
easily away from harm, redirects others
attacks, etc. Yet when hits, links the entire
bodyweight behind it. (more likened to a hook than
a jab when it lands... but even more powerfull)
3 forward limbs do also act as counter-ballance,
so if somehow one did lean back in an emergency
or mistake action.. one would be less prone to
falling and losing balance.
Squared Shoulders = All three forward limbs can
reach the target at any moment in time. This is
a huge advantage in speed and situaional effectivity.
Should one side fail, you can still strike with the
other sides limb because they both are in range. Unlike
if a fighter leads with the left.. and if that fails.. the
right is too far back to launch an attack. If he
does launch it, its easier to read.. and is also limited
in its pathway and power genereated thru that
path. Some ofthat because of angles, and some because of
actual weight distribution. Some because of changes in
structure.. and the way power gets lost within it.
(ineffecient pathways)
WC punches always carry the same powerload capability
because they are launched with perfect ballance,
rock solid 'grounded' and effectient pathways. They
are also faster because they are closer to the targets
from where they originate from.
(no telegraphic "pull-back first" punches)
Proper WC punches are stirking with the entire
bodyweight behind them rather than just the arm
force.
The head never tilts forwards nor back. This keeps the
fighters ballance, as well as vision from obstruction.
Boxers forward bent back and forwards tilted head
only make it easier to reach and strike thier foreheads...
With proper fist conditioning, one can easily KO a
person with a WC strike to the forehead. Being braced
forwards with the back means they are also more prone to
expose thier back to strikes, put off thier ballance,
cause poor transmission of power durring various
positions due to poor angles - weight ballance - and
un-unified mass direction..etc. Also, spine comression
could occur with a heavy strike.
Boxers use the weight forwards technique, because it helps
to close the gap if they can slip inside.. as well as when
they do make a hit, they do not have to move the mass a
long distance since its already forwards. However, this
type of combat is not really very 'safe'. Its one reason
why you see so many exchanges that actually Land on the
heads. You also end up overcommiting forces, and thus
have recovery time to deal with. Which again, isnt very
safe should you miss.
Missing a strike in WC however does not cause any
loss of ballance or structural changes. This means
no recovery time needed.. as well as instantanious
changes, lightning fast succession of attacks and
defenses.
> Head down boxing, hands up, head movement 3-D requires/builds the
> shoulder and neck muscles, ties in with hip torque well. You get tired
> and your hands drop. What happens when WC gets tired?
> WC as it's currently practiced, is mostly arm and triceps, though the
> advanced guys try to work in a spring-hip wave movement.
Wc practices many drills and Always has thier hand up and away
from the body. Its a great strength, adding strenght to the
neck, shoulders, and arms. Esp great arm endurance, which
means excellent accuracy and non fatigue.
In one drill we had a 15 minute session that consisted of
nonstop punching, while the other person blocked nonstop... then
we switched roles, and contined for another 15.
If you can punch and or block for 30 minutes nonstop.. without
loss of accuracy and timing.. your quite prepared for a
20 second brawl! *if it even lasted that long. And that drill
was only one of many such drills that occured the entire class long.
Our teachers class was nearly 2 hrs long. about 40min dedicated to workout
and some light stretching. A few minutes for new instrustion. The rest
was pretty much nonstop drills.
> Even BL who was a lot faster than most guys had to spend extraordinary
> time building up his abs and hips and upper body to even begin to make
> WC work against bigger guys. Most of the current WC guys aren't doing
> that.
Your ideas are incorrect actually.
To succeed in WC against larger guys does not require great
strenght. Instead, it requires better game. Better ability
of sensativity to be able to read and flow arround the
power than to try to clash against it. Because no matter
how strong you are... if you try to clash against someone
stronger and with much greater mass.. they will win over.
You wont move them, or wont move them enough.. and all
you will end up doing is wasting your efforts, exaustng your
energy, causing your limbs damage, and putting yourself in the
pathway of a Mack truck thats about to roll you over. Trust me,
I learned this the Hard way. Over and over... untill I finally
realized the correct ways.
Next, Lee didnt even get far into the 2nd level of WC.
He rarly used it, and anything Ive seen of it, was too 'hard style'.
The advantage however, is that when he did Hit, he was
able to generate much more power than many who didnt have
such 'developed' muscles.
In many ways, its true.. that you do in fact need the
propper amount of power to be able to pull off a strike that
has enough force to stop a large attacker.
Many WC shools incorporate great amount of time to
developiing Tricpept strength. As well as Abs for
core strength. Legs, for kicking and stability. And
striking of sandbags for conditioning and power ability.
> Every time you see WC come up it's trying to do something to prop up
> the style. In Germany they added Latosa FMA, in other places they add
> other styles. One book I came across in my storage boxes was by a guy
> who added MT, and White Crane (and Chin-Na) and calling it Sun Tzu
> Kuen.
>
> Those guys need to either step it up or drop it, b/c by itself, WC
> isn't cutting it. Guys, we know how to punch straight and give/take
> centerline. It's time to move on into the 21st Century already. ;-)
>
> -B
Wc can be integrated with almost any style. The main advantage..
is that many styles lack the ability to effectively and safely
intercept in actual combat. Couple safe intercept with an art like
Akido locks and throws... and you now have a more complete and
effective Akido.. as well as the ability to choose between
leathal WC stikes, or maybe more passive akido locks...
WC can very well do well on its own. Its just poor artist
that seem to be dragging things down. It however is still
sreading and growing very swiftly. Many long time artist
or other styles are finding out the advantages, and utilizing
them in thier trainings.
As for the centerline comment.. Ill say that many fighters
dont even know what that means.. and the ones that do...
are the ones that have at least some of the knowledge that
was spread by the WC system. And to expand..
WC is Way more than just about claiming center. Its your still
very limited depth perspective that causes you to think this.
As for Cutting it.. I trained a complete NOOB who had
no previous art/athletic background.. and in less than 6 months
was able to fend off artist that had YEARS of
experinece under them. I think that speaks Volumes about
WC effectivity on its own.
>>Anyone can watch that felony fights vid w/ the hispanic dude fighting
>>the white guy w/ the tats who said he stabbed someone in jail and see
>>this. Cholo kept his chin down, head forward, came in, even maybe ate
>>a strike. The white guy took his head back as he threw, which is a
>>natural thing for people to do, and consequently, had immense postural
>>defect and got RIZZOCKED.
I will agree with this for sure. If your head bobs backwards,
your weight shifts back.. as well as causing trouble with ballance,
it usually effects the entire pathway of energy travel.. thus
great loss of power.
Proper WC players do not lean thier heads back,nor forward.
Badger North
> As for your sex-drive, you may try to borrow the DVD from the Chinese
> that solved the low sex-drive problems for their giant pandas:
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-11/23/content_5367772.htm
And as long as xiaou doesn't mind the development of a panda fetish,
he's good to go.
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
Badger North
xiaou2 wrote:
> Luckily,
> according to net research, they say thyroid cancer is
> pretty rare, and very treatable. Its just depressing
> that I may have to go thru another operation so
> soon.
Trust me, getting onto thyroid meds will turn things around like you
wouldn't believe. My wife kept saying that just when she thought the
effects had topped out from the meds, she'd realize that she was
feeling better and better. Energy levels, mood, being able to wake up
in the morning feeling refreshed.
> I just hope that someday in the near future, Ill
> be back to a form of normalcy thats at least tolerable.
> As it stands, my energy level is so bad now.. that going
> shopping is just about a 'day ender' for me :(
Yeah, it sucks mightily. The delightful Mrs. Badger would sleep all
night, get up in the morning, help get the kids off to school, go back
to bed, stay in bed until she needed to get the kids from school,
possibly nap after that too... she was probably getting in the
neighbourhood of maybe 12 hours of sleep a day and still feeling tired.
You might also want to spend a couple bucks and pick up a
full-spectrum/sun light. With the decreasing daylight hours, your body
clock is going to be thrown even further out of whack.
Badger North
www.youngforest.ca
theoriginaldimi
Badger_s schreef:
> One thing that happens when you don't have enough experience or information
> when trying to analyze or deconstruct something complex is that you end up
> making endless theories, predictors, constructs that seem to make a patch
> between the elusive reality and the real event.
>
> Such is the case with WC.
>
> http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/jeungng.htm
>
> This article talks about the three phases of martial awareness, a red flag
> that someone has overanalyzed the event with insufficient information and
> precious little experience in fighting.
>
> It initially sounds good saying stage one is the awareness of yourself in
> space, two is the awareness of the opponent. The third stage, however:
>
> "Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one's
> parts within defined space"
>
> What? Clearly gobbledygook.
>
> The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
> and width and focal points.
>
> But fighting is not like that. In fighting we simplify. We hit the opponent
> and he hits back. We use footwork not strange concepts of time and space
> and gates defined by the arms and body. The mind does calculations and
> timing in a free flow and does not have to involve some mathematic
> construct. (note the 'Inner Game of Tennis'). When you pull out into
> traffic you are not aware of the sophisticated math your brain is doing to
> judge the closing speed of cars.
>
> In fighting, instead, you train and fight realistically and free yourself
> of these false concepts of geometry. The body learns how to position and
> move, find and create openings.
>
> Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
> figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
>
> -B
The abbrevation WC means toilet in Dutch. That's all that needs to be
said on the subject I guess.
Don Geddis
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
>> ...to a guy w/ a purple belt in BJJ, tons of wrestling experience, and
>> heavy hands and feet from kickboxing.
"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote on Wed, 22 Nov 2006:
> He commanded the kicking range- all the rest of it is irrelevant if his
> opponent can't deal with the kicking range. And Hughes couldn't.
That's not true, actually. Hughes survived kicking range just fine at the
beginning of the first round, and closed to a solid clinch at least twice
without being knocked out.
The only reason GSP was able to make standup striking matter in that fight,
is because he had fantastic wrestling ability and was able to avoid getting
taken down by Matt Hughes, even when Hughes had a double-under bearhug on him.
Few people (at that weight) in the world would be able to avoid going to the
ground once Matt Hughes has that position on them. And he got that position
without taking too much damage in the initial striking.
Any TKD/karate/wing chun guy, lacking GSP's wrestling skills, would have been
yet another easy victory by Hughes due to boring ground & pound (or maybe
even submission).
GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to deliver
the knockout kicks and punches.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
Badger_s
>>>> Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
>
>> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
>>> ...to a guy w/ a purple belt in BJJ, tons of wrestling experience, and
>>> heavy hands and feet from kickboxing.
>
>"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote on Wed, 22 Nov 2006:
>> He commanded the kicking range- all the rest of it is irrelevant if his
>> opponent can't deal with the kicking range. And Hughes couldn't.
>
>That's not true, actually. Hughes survived kicking range just fine at the
>beginning of the first round, and closed to a solid clinch at least twice
>without being knocked out.
>
>The only reason GSP was able to make standup striking matter in that fight,
>is because he had fantastic wrestling ability and was able to avoid getting
>taken down by Matt Hughes, even when Hughes had a double-under bearhug on him.
GSP set up the final high kick by threatening the forward leg, and he was
able to do that partly because he established his jab. He'd get Hughes
looking for the jab then throw the low kick and vice versa. Good lateral
movement, too.
He was able to establish the jab and throw the knee kick because of his
wrestling ability. Matt knew he could just not shoot in at anyt time. He
expected GSP to defend the takedown. Don't think he expected him to do it
so well.
Rather than say it was a single thing I think it's more meaningful to see
it as a pyramid, or a synergy.
The thing Hughes reacted the most strongly to was actually GSP's stiff jab.
GSP imposed his game in several areas making it hard for Matt to know what
was coming next. Remember, GSP scored with counter punches, a counter jab.
He got in a knee, a superman punch and an elbow in G&P after passing to
half-guard in R-1, got in spinning back-kick, and did a take-down catching
a Hughes kick, and finished in R-2 with a head kick and several very
accurate elbows in G&P.
RC: "So dymanic so many different tools"
>Few people (at that weight) in the world would be able to avoid going to the
>ground once Matt Hughes has that position on them. And he got that position
>without taking too much damage in the initial striking.
>
>Any TKD/karate/wing chun guy, lacking GSP's wrestling skills, would have been
>yet another easy victory by Hughes due to boring ground & pound (or maybe
>even submission).
TKD, karate guys tend to stand too far away when head kicking. GSP hit him
at perfect distance, shin to neck, sort of a switch kick or stutter step
resulting off the front leg.
>GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to deliver
>the knockout kicks and punches.
Sure was.
-B
theoriginaldimi
Don Geddis schreef:
> >>> Hughes lost the fight at TKD range.
>
> > <trav...@aol.com> wrote
> >> ...to a guy w/ a purple belt in BJJ, tons of wrestling experience, and
> >> heavy hands and feet from kickboxing.
>
> "Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote on Wed, 22 Nov 2006:
> > He commanded the kicking range- all the rest of it is irrelevant if his
> > opponent can't deal with the kicking range. And Hughes couldn't.
>
> That's not true, actually. Hughes survived kicking range just fine at the
> beginning of the first round, and closed to a solid clinch at least twice
> without being knocked out.
>
> The only reason GSP was able to make standup striking matter in that fight,
> is because he had fantastic wrestling ability and was able to avoid getting
> taken down by Matt Hughes, even when Hughes had a double-under bearhug on him.
>
> Few people (at that weight) in the world would be able to avoid going to the
> ground once Matt Hughes has that position on them. And he got that position
> without taking too much damage in the initial striking.
>
> Any TKD/karate/wing chun guy, lacking GSP's wrestling skills, would have been
> yet another easy victory by Hughes due to boring ground & pound (or maybe
> even submission).
>
> GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to deliver
> the knockout kicks and punches.
>
> -- Don
You are so correct that it isn't even funy anymore. All the good
strikers in MMA are also very good grapplers (and especially when it
comes to defensive grappling such as td-defense and stalling in guard
until standup).
Even the best stanup guys would be taken to the ground like Art
Jimmerson if they did not have takedown defense, and they would be
pounded into oblivion if they did not have decent scrambling and guard
skills.
Dimitri
Chas
> That's not true, actually. Hughes survived kicking range just fine at the
> beginning of the first round, and closed to a solid clinch at least twice
> without being knocked out.
He barely survived- had there not been a referee, he wouldn't have survived
the first groin shot, much less the second.
Hughes doesn't kick well, and he doesn't deal with kicks well.
> The only reason GSP was able to make standup striking matter in that
> fight,
> is because he had fantastic wrestling ability and was able to avoid
> getting
> taken down by Matt Hughes, even when Hughes had a double-under bearhug on
> him.
Sure- he's an all-range fighter; as opposed to Hughes who needs a gimme at
kicking range in order to get close enough to deploy his skills.
> Few people (at that weight) in the world would be able to avoid going to
> the
> ground once Matt Hughes has that position on them. And he got that
> position
> without taking too much damage in the initial striking.
He needed referee stoppage twice to survive the kicking attack.
Ya jus' can't fight all spraddle-legged like that; in the real world,
anyway.
> Any TKD/karate/wing chun guy, lacking GSP's wrestling skills, would have
> been
> yet another easy victory by Hughes due to boring ground & pound (or maybe
> even submission).
Sure- the days of strikers not being familiar with grappling are over- ten
years or so-
as contrasted with grapplers that get the shit kicked out of them for not
having a good stand-up game.
Look how many bouts are now decided by 'who can't get close enough to
grapple'. It's no longer sufficient to weather a half-hearted/mitigated
kick/punch defense to a shoot to get a g&p win-
> GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to
> deliver
> the knockout kicks and punches.
Sure-
pity that Hughes didn't rise to the same standard of fighting at all ranges.
Chas
> He was able to establish the jab and throw the knee kick because of his
> wrestling ability. Matt knew he could just not shoot in at anyt time. He
> expected GSP to defend the takedown. Don't think he expected him to do it
> so well.
GSP understands that the kicking/punching range is very powerful- knockouts
work. Of course he's trained for grappling- and had highlight reels to
prepare a defense to Hughes' attempts to close range between them.
Notice that GSP returned to the knockout range as soon as possible- it's his
bread&butter- and he denied Hughes' favored range/techniques pretty easily.
> Rather than say it was a single thing I think it's more meaningful to see
> it as a pyramid, or a synergy.
Well, that's a bit better-
up till now, grapplers were decrying the utility of the kicking/punching
skills; head-kicks, spinning back-kicks, groin shots, pre-emptive punching
(GSP beat Hughes to the punch 8 of 10 times- much less 'time' him to
counterpunch/kick), leg kicks to kill 'explosiveness',.......
> The thing Hughes reacted the most strongly to was actually GSP's stiff
> jab.
D'ya think?
The shoot depends on precise ranging and timing skills- the preemptive
'jab/kick and move' footwork requres the grappler to 'reset'. GSP beat
Hughes to the 'shoot' range with that jab until Matt had been hurt a number
of times.
> TKD, karate guys tend to stand too far away when head kicking. GSP hit him
> at perfect distance, shin to neck, sort of a switch kick or stutter step
> resulting off the front leg.
He ain't the first one to fall either.
A good kicker can hit you from punching range- might be a matter of
body-type also for the really good ones (long torso, equal-length arms and
legs). He can hit you before you can punch him (range), and at the same
distance as you'd punch.
>>GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to
>>deliver
>>the knockout kicks and punches.
> Sure was.
Nah; it was his range/time sense. He's comfortable at a range that a
wrestler has little knowledge of- and he beat Hughes to the punch time and
time again.
Of course 'grappling' is essential-
but notice that GSP didn't rely on it much at all- he foiled the shoot a
dozen times with punches/kicks, countered it several times- and stood up
immediately, back to his best strength/tactic against an accomplished
grappler- and indifferent kicker.
Badger_s
wrote:
>"Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote
>> He was able to establish the jab and throw the knee kick because of his
>> wrestling ability. Matt knew he could just not shoot in at anyt time. He
>> expected GSP to defend the takedown. Don't think he expected him to do it
>> so well.
>
>GSP understands that the kicking/punching range is very powerful- knockouts
>work. Of course he's trained for grappling- and had highlight reels to
>prepare a defense to Hughes' attempts to close range between them.
>Notice that GSP returned to the knockout range as soon as possible- it's his
>bread&butter- and he denied Hughes' favored range/techniques pretty easily.
>
>> Rather than say it was a single thing I think it's more meaningful to see
>> it as a pyramid, or a synergy.
>
>Well, that's a bit better-
>up till now, grapplers were decrying the utility of the kicking/punching
>skills; head-kicks, spinning back-kicks, groin shots, pre-emptive punching
>(GSP beat Hughes to the punch 8 of 10 times- much less 'time' him to
>counterpunch/kick), leg kicks to kill 'explosiveness',.......
>
>> The thing Hughes reacted the most strongly to was actually GSP's stiff
>> jab.
>
>D'ya think?
>The shoot depends on precise ranging and timing skills- the preemptive
>'jab/kick and move' footwork requres the grappler to 'reset'. GSP beat
>Hughes to the 'shoot' range with that jab until Matt had been hurt a number
>of times.
Reset. I like that. Getting the shoot is dependent on the distance, timing,
foot position and inertia being just right. Knowing grappling, and training
the extra ranges from outfighting to clinch and takedown enabled GSP to
slightly alter his boxing to make Matt reset time and again until Matt just
became frustrated and reverted to a pure wrestling mindset - i.e. going for
the faked low kick with disregard for all his MMA training for a second.
>> TKD, karate guys tend to stand too far away when head kicking. GSP hit him
>> at perfect distance, shin to neck, sort of a switch kick or stutter step
>> resulting off the front leg.
>
>He ain't the first one to fall either.
>A good kicker can hit you from punching range- might be a matter of
>body-type also for the really good ones (long torso, equal-length arms and
>legs). He can hit you before you can punch him (range), and at the same
>distance as you'd punch.
I don't see nearly enough stop-kicking.
>>>GSP's excellent wrestling ability was critical to him being able to
>>>deliver the knockout kicks and punches.
>> Sure was.
>
>Nah; it was his range/time sense. He's comfortable at a range that a
>wrestler has little knowledge of- and he beat Hughes to the punch time and
>time again.
I was being a bit facetious. What you said. ;-)
>Of course 'grappling' is essential-
>but notice that GSP didn't rely on it much at all- he foiled the shoot a
>dozen times with punches/kicks, countered it several times- and stood up
>immediately, back to his best strength/tactic against an accomplished
>grappler- and indifferent kicker.
As Gi has said, the MMA punching and need to prevent being kicked and
grappled changes it. The whole transition game has to be learned and it's
not as easy as it might look.
-B
Chas
> As Gi has said, the MMA punching and need to prevent being kicked and
> grappled changes it. The whole transition game has to be learned and it's
> not as easy as it might look.
Yeah; sooner or later, they'll start looking at systems that have been doing
it for centuries.
Sutemi
> http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/jeungng.htm
>
> This article talks about the three phases of martial awareness, a red flag
> that someone has overanalyzed the event with insufficient information and
> precious little experience in fighting.
>
> It initially sounds good saying stage one is the awareness of yourself in
> space, two is the awareness of the opponent. The third stage, however:
>
> "Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one's
> parts within defined space"
>
> What? Clearly gobbledygook.
>
> The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
> and width and focal points.
>
> Now here's where I'm going out on a small limb and say that I think I've
> figured out the logical flaw in WC infighting!
>
> -B
The years I spent in Wing Chun compel me to post some points.
I've perused Meng's book and agree that it's gobbledygook. Remember the
tee-shirts in the seventies that said "If you can't dazzle them with
brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"? If you contemplate a rock long
enough, it becomes a wonder of quantum physics. It's so hard yet it's
mostly space between it's atoms. But when a big dog starts to chase
you, you just throw the rock at the dog's head. Meng's analysis of Wing
Chun is the rock without the dog.
Addressing xiaou's copy/pasting of Meng's bona fides: I've met Meng,
competed with his students and watched others compete with my
classmates. Swell guys. Very studious. None of us quit to go train with
him. We competed in a chi-sao tournament. There was San-Shou
competition at this tournament and none of his guys competed in that.
Maybe since then but I don't know. Five miles of alphabet soup after a
persons name means exactly dick to me. I'd like to hear about who
someone knocked out, even anecdotally. I'm frankly mostly impressed
with Meng's Tae Kwon Do record because that took some athleticism
that's impossible to fake.
Meng's gobbledygook is one proponent's take on Wing Chun, Badge. Don't
tar all of us with it. It's impossible to "pin down" any one logical
flaw in WC training because no two WC people seem to ever agree on
anything. There's no commonality in WC except "centerline theory" and
as xiaou said when he described how he defends a hook punch, some say
that's not correct WC. I've had WC people tell me I'm not doing WC
because my branch uses a lot of footwork. I've listened to my
instructor damn some other branches hand position as wrong. Every
branch and many individuals interpret basic principles very
differently, and often the criterion they use in their interpretations
are opaque to me. Effectiveness is not a helpful criterion because
different people can make techniques work with different methods of
execution. Maybe one flaw is the inflexibility of thinking that demands
a single "right" way that doesn't take into account human variability.
Wing Chun people seem to come in three basic flavors. Chi heads,
knuckle heads, and the small minority who get that Wing Chun should be
a mixture of subtlety and power. Chi heads are generally fat nerds who
come from a D&D/taiji background. They're physically and mentally soft
and have horrible structure. When you hit them, they expound at length
on how you were only able to do it by resorting to muscle and you
really have no WC skill at all. Knuckle heads are gorillas who can do
one handed pullups with each hand and think the heighth of WC skill is
grabbing your arm in their meaty grip and pulling down with all their
strength and punching you over the top. I respect them because they're
tough and can fight but I pity them also because they'd be a hundred
times better off doing Muay Thai. The third group (to which I belong)
are also nerds like the first group, but wirier and not afraid to mix
it up or talk to girls (who occasionally even have sex with us). We
develop our games using pressure to bait, attacking, counterattacking
and changing up, much like groundfighting but of much more dubious
value.
Many of the attributes and some of the techniques that Wing Chun
develop have value, but few are truly unique to the style or applicable
exactly as trained. Like xaiou says, a lot of experimentation is
required to make it work, and it's arguable whether it's worth the time
or if some other method might yield better results. Wing Chun
instructors rarely encourage that kind of experimentation in my
experience.
I've always likened Wing Chun to fighting with a straight razor. It's
very subtle and at close range with the advantage of surprise it can be
horrifyingly effective BUT...I wouldn't want to walk down to the
battlefield with just my straight razor. I'd want my sword, shield and
maybe a warhammer too.
I'd love to teach WC to a group of serious mixed martial artists for a
year exclusively. All the forms, every trick I know six days a week,
three hours a day. Working, competing, innovating like I used to with
my old training group. At the end of one year, have them teach it back
to me, filtered through and informed by their fighting background. I
still wish some WC person would step up but even if they did, the WC
orthodoxy probably wouldn't acknowledge him. That's the flaw of WC. If
a boxer, wrestler, Judo guy, hell even a Silat guy backfilled his
training in order to be competitively viable in MMA, they'd be proud.
If a WC guy does it they'll say, "yeah, but it wasn't pure Wing Chun."
I went on. Sorry, this stuff has been rattling around my brain for
years.
trav...@aol.com
> He commanded the kicking range-
> all the rest of it is irrelevant if his opponent can't deal with the kicking
> range.
> And Hughes couldn't.
> Hughes' strengths obtain when you've lost the kicking range fight.
He could not have commanded the fking kicking range had he not ALSO had
immense skill in the clinch range and ground range. Hughes simply
would have done a sacrifice shot, exposing himself to get the fight
down, just like Royce used to do.
You really do not understand fighting if you believe what you are
saying here.
> The mma fighters that start in tkd seem to have an advantage over those that
> start on the shortest range.
Since when?
> He did; GSP was a TKD 'expert' long before he was successful in other
> sports.
> A 'silat pirate' would have killed him in his dressing room.
With laughter.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> Of course 'grappling' is essential-
> but notice that GSP didn't rely on it much at all- he foiled the shoot a
> dozen times with punches/kicks, countered it several times- and stood up
> immediately, back to his best strength/tactic against an accomplished
> grappler- and indifferent kicker.
> --
Um...he was only able to actualize his hand and foot skill because he
had rough parity in the grappling department.
He outgrappled Matt Hughes. That is how he was able to get the
opportunity to deliver his strikes.
Trav
Badger_s
I'd be happy to take this to email if you want to expound on WC further.
What years were you into it? I think it underwent some evolution in the
80s. Ever seen Gary Lam's stuff? How about Glover's forward pressure
version?
>Meng's gobbledygook is one proponent's take on Wing Chun, Badge. Don't
>tar all of us with it. It's impossible to "pin down" any one logical
>flaw in WC training because no two WC people seem to ever agree on
>anything. There's no commonality in WC except "centerline theory" and
>as xiaou said when he described how he defends a hook punch, some say
>that's not correct WC. I've had WC people tell me I'm not doing WC
>because my branch uses a lot of footwork.
What some people forget is that the top WC guys say that they use WC as a
basis for an evolving combat style, even WSL and Duncan Leung, certainly
Hawkins Cheung. Once you have an idea of 'principles' and things you can
test, then you start to broaden your whole idea of what to look for in
fighting.
But sometimes you get guys who don't fight or do it restrictedly and they
start coming up with all these 'theories'. They use them to support their
overly optimistic moves and then you just go crazy trying to understand
what's going on instead of doing it.
>I've listened to my
>instructor damn some other branches hand position as wrong. Every
>branch and many individuals interpret basic principles very
>differently, and often the criterion they use in their interpretations
>are opaque to me.
The important thing to work on is the bridge. There should be a pocket
under your elbow that can't be collapsed. Notice the high hand posture of
MT, where they just extend the arms so as to invite a kick to the
midsection. That whole structure needs to be incredibly stable. Arms up for
five minute rounds. Also strong midsection so you don't have to guard that
level except with an occasional lowering of your level. People don't do
that and drop guard to low parry - bad habit.
>Effectiveness is not a helpful criterion because
>different people can make techniques work with different methods of
>execution. Maybe one flaw is the inflexibility of thinking that demands
>a single "right" way that doesn't take into account human variability.
Work performance-based. Rolling, MMA style sparring in a ring. Throw out
what won't work or bring it up until it will.
>Wing Chun people seem to come in three basic flavors. Chi heads,
>knuckle heads, and the small minority who get that Wing Chun should be
>a mixture of subtlety and power. Chi heads are generally fat nerds who
>come from a D&D/taiji background. They're physically and mentally soft
>and have horrible structure. When you hit them, they expound at length
>on how you were only able to do it by resorting to muscle and you
>really have no WC skill at all.
So when you say hit them what do you mean? Chest hits? Wearing gloves,
what. Just curious.
>Knuckle heads are gorillas who can do
>one handed pullups with each hand and think the heighth of WC skill is
>grabbing your arm in their meaty grip and pulling down with all their
>strength and punching you over the top. I respect them because they're
>tough and can fight but I pity them also because they'd be a hundred
>times better off doing Muay Thai. The third group (to which I belong)
>are also nerds like the first group, but wirier and not afraid to mix
>it up or talk to girls (who occasionally even have sex with us). We
>develop our games using pressure to bait, attacking, counterattacking
>and changing up, much like groundfighting but of much more dubious
>value.
What is this 'talking' to girls of which you speak? ;-p
>Many of the attributes and some of the techniques that Wing Chun
>develop have value, but few are truly unique to the style or applicable
>exactly as trained. Like xaiou says, a lot of experimentation is
>required to make it work, and it's arguable whether it's worth the time
>or if some other method might yield better results. Wing Chun
>instructors rarely encourage that kind of experimentation in my
>experience.
>
>I've always likened Wing Chun to fighting with a straight razor. It's
>very subtle and at close range with the advantage of surprise it can be
>horrifyingly effective BUT...I wouldn't want to walk down to the
>battlefield with just my straight razor. I'd want my sword, shield and
>maybe a warhammer too.
>
>I'd love to teach WC to a group of serious mixed martial artists for a
>year exclusively. All the forms, every trick I know six days a week,
>three hours a day. Working, competing, innovating like I used to with
>my old training group.
Ever seen this guy?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vUCCtb9uOs
>At the end of one year, have them teach it back
>to me, filtered through and informed by their fighting background. I
>still wish some WC person would step up but even if they did, the WC
>orthodoxy probably wouldn't acknowledge him. That's the flaw of WC. If
>a boxer, wrestler, Judo guy, hell even a Silat guy backfilled his
>training in order to be competitively viable in MMA, they'd be proud.
>If a WC guy does it they'll say, "yeah, but it wasn't pure Wing Chun."
>
>I went on. Sorry, this stuff has been rattling around my brain for
>years.
Like I said I have lots to say and would be interested in listening to your
take too. Let me know if you want to go email so as not to bore the group.
-B
trav...@aol.com
> Yeah; sooner or later, they'll start looking at systems that have been doing
> it for centuries.
> --
Like what, that joke ass shit you're doing?
If it had something to offer, someone'd have offered it instead of
hiding behind "too deadly" or cults of lineage personality.
Trav
Chas
> He could not have commanded the fking kicking range had he not ALSO had
> immense skill in the clinch range and ground range. Hughes simply
> would have done a sacrifice shot, exposing himself to get the fight
> down, just like Royce used to do.
You mean fifteen years ago??
sure-
except that doesn't work anymore-
particularly, it seems with the Canadian kickers.
> You really do not understand fighting if you believe what you are
> saying here.
heh.
Look who's falling down.
>> The mma fighters that start in tkd seem to have an advantage over those
>> that
>> start on the shortest range.
> Since when?
since the Canadians, since the Eastern Europeans, since the Brazilians that
evolved from emphasizing jujutsu.
Quit living in the past, Trav.
Chas
Chas
> Um...he was only able to actualize his hand and foot skill because he
> had rough parity in the grappling department.
irrelevant.
> He outgrappled Matt Hughes. That is how he was able to get the
> opportunity to deliver his strikes.
Poop-
GSP neutralized Hughes' grappling skills and stood up to whack him everytime
Hughes made the mistake of trying to rush him.
Why do you think Hughes could neither deliver a good kick, nor
block/neutralize GSP's kicks?
Chas
Sutemi
Badger_s wrote:
> I'd be happy to take this to email if you want to expound on WC further.
That would be fine, Wing Chun is a dry subject for most.
> What years were you into it? I think it underwent some evolution in the
> 80s. Ever seen Gary Lam's stuff? How about Glover's forward pressure
> version?
I996 to a year ago. My instructor was a fairly strict traditionalist,
he didn't do evolution.
> What some people forget is that the top WC guys say that they use WC as a
> basis for an evolving combat style, even WSL and Duncan Leung, certainly
> Hawkins Cheung. Once you have an idea of 'principles' and things you can
> test, then you start to broaden your whole idea of what to look for in
> fighting.
Heresy seems to be the final stage of traditional Chinese martial arts
training. You break away, form your own ideas and the instructor feels
betrayed. Never mind that he did the same thing to his instructor.
> But sometimes you get guys who don't fight or do it restrictedly and they
> start coming up with all these 'theories'. They use them to support their
> overly optimistic moves and then you just go crazy trying to understand
> what's going on instead of doing it.
That's a perfect description of what I went through, especially since I
tend to (over) analyze everything.
> The important thing to work on is the bridge. There should be a pocket
> under your elbow that can't be collapsed. Notice the high hand posture of
> MT, where they just extend the arms so as to invite a kick to the
> midsection. That whole structure needs to be incredibly stable. Arms up for
> five minute rounds. Also strong midsection so you don't have to guard that
> level except with an occasional lowering of your level. People don't do
> that and drop guard to low parry - bad habit.
> Work performance-based. Rolling, MMA style sparring in a ring. Throw out
> what won't work or bring it up until it will.
The trouble with me is descerning what to throw out. So much of WC was
difficult and counter-intuitive, but I eventually got it. Almost every
time I thought my instructor was full of shit, he turned out to be
right. It was often hard to reconcile my trust in his experience and
the evidence of my own.
> So when you say hit them what do you mean? Chest hits? Wearing gloves,
> what. Just curious.
Almost any touch in chi-sao. Palm strikes, punches. No gloves, just
chi-sao stuff.
> What is this 'talking' to girls of which you speak? ;-p
Well, they say things back instead of spraying you with that burny
perfume they carry on their keychains.
> Ever seen this guy?
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vUCCtb9uOs
No, I haven't. He looks like where I always wanted to take it. I
envisioned a techno soundtrack more like Mortal Kombat, though.
> Like I said I have lots to say and would be interested in listening to your
> take too. Let me know if you want to go email so as not to bore the group.
I'd be delighted. : )
xiaou2
news:1164405841.6...@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com:
> Chas wrote:
>> He commanded the kicking range-
>> all the rest of it is irrelevant if his opponent can't deal with the
>> kicking range.
>> And Hughes couldn't.
>> Hughes' strengths obtain when you've lost the kicking range fight.
>
> He could not have commanded the fking kicking range had he not ALSO
> had immense skill in the clinch range and ground range. Hughes simply
> would have done a sacrifice shot, exposing himself to get the fight
> down, just like Royce used to do.
Heres the real drill.. It doesnt really matter if the kicker does
know or has skills in clinch and ground. What matters most,
is the ability of the kicker/striker to keep a fighter out
of that range.
Many kickers are trained half/assed. Have sloppy unballanced
technique.. and thus lose too much power, ability to land strikes,
and even stability.. falling too easily.
A Good Striker can target anything within its range and take
it out cold. Of course, we are also talking non-sport.. cause
too many things arnt legal that in fact would be used to
stop a real attacker trying to ground you.
Sadly, Ive not seen the fight spoke of.. so I cant make any
comments about thier tech. But, I can say, that Ive
fought against some bad and great kickers. The best
were insanely hard to get anywhere near. As soon
as you were in kick range.. you were a splitsecond from
getting a broken rib.. and still way too far away from
getting a punch in yourself.
The first range in combat is the kick range. At its
furthest kick... is about 4'3" depending on leg length.
(shaolin toe stab) If you deny that range.. then
what you are doing is taking a Risk that the person
will not exploit that range/technique.
If one does that tech... Do they do it well enough to
be usefull? As sure, maybe you hit them with the
toe stab.. but its too light and they charge thru it..
It will appear that the technique is useless to the
unknowing. However, done properly, certain strikes like
this could cause some nasty effects, end fights, and
put people into hospital care.
Sure, 9 times out of 10, the sport guys that compete
dont do such things well. Arnt trained Fully and
to high degrees, are sloppy, inaccurate, lacking power..etc..
so picking off a grappler wont work well at all... which
is what you used to see...
Now that many have seen this, they are either taking
better strides in thier training, getting more
qualified instruction, etc. And so the results
will eventually get more and more favorable for
the majority of striker victories.
(you may soon see more rules resulting from
nasty strikes.. which then will further
cripple the reality of these fights.. and
put it up there in league with TDK tournaments)
One things for sure.. that Any art thats never dealt
with another art.. is likly to be tooken a fool. Because
in true fighting, you do not have time to think. You
must rely on trained reflex most the time. While
these grapple techs and shoots have worked in the past against
many strikers.. many of the strikers have seen the
clues, and trained to counter. They dont even have to
know the complete grapple/ground game, and can command a bigger
advantage.
But, that doesnt mean that they will be invincible to
a great grappler/bjj/wrestler..etc. It just means they
may have a greater advantage.
As Ive always said.. the first range of combat is
standup.. and that is what should be learned
first.. eventually learning all the ranges untill
and including ground arts.
The more knowlegde you know doesnt always lead to
victory either. Its much better to have a single
technique that is 100% perfect, than to have
300 techniques that are only so/so.
> You really do not understand fighting if you believe what you are
> saying here.
I believe you have got that backwards.
Don Geddis
>> Um...he was only able to actualize his hand and foot skill because he
>> had rough parity in the grappling department.
"Chas" <chascl...@comcast.net> wrote on Fri, 24 Nov 2006:
> irrelevant.
The relevance is that any other fighter, with the same striking skills as
GSP, but without GSP's excellent grappling skills, would NOT have shown the
same success against Hughes as GSP did.
Only GSP's grappling skills (specifically: takedown defense) allowed the
fight to be decided at striking range, which is of course where GSP had a
huge advantage.
> GSP neutralized Hughes' grappling skills and stood up to whack him everytime
> Hughes made the mistake of trying to rush him.
Hughes rushing GSP was not a mistake for Hughes; it was his only reasonable
strategy (and usually a very effective one). And GSP didn't counter Hughes'
"rushing" with strikes; it was grappling escapes that got him out of the
grappling threat.
> Why do you think Hughes could neither deliver a good kick, nor
> block/neutralize GSP's kicks?
Because Hughes sucks at standup striking.
But the important point is that Hughes has ALWAYS sucked at standup striking,
and yet he's been one of the most dominant champions in the world for the
last few years, with a fabulous MMA record over something like 20 fights and
4 years, against top competition.
If this was such a big hole in Hughes' game, why couldn't anyone else manage
to see it and pull off the same kind of victory?
The answer is that few people in the world have the COMBINATION of striking
and grappling skills that GSP has. Striking by itself is simply not sufficient
to shut down Matt Hughes, as plenty of his victims have demonstrated. GSP's
grappling skills were a necessary part of his winning strategy.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
[World's Shortest Fairy Tale:]
Once upon a time a guy asked a girl, "Will you marry me?" She said, "No."
And the guy lived happily ever after.
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"xiaou2" <xia...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns988638C254C5A...@24.24.2.166...
> Heres the real drill.. It doesnt really matter if the kicker does
> know or has skills in clinch and ground.
Complete bullshit.
What matters most,
> is the ability of the kicker/striker to keep a fighter out
> of that range.
And how will he do this? You will no doubt advocate better kicking and striking
skills. There is some merit to that, but that is no reason not to learn
groundfighting.
> Many kickers are trained half/assed. Have sloppy unballanced
> technique.. and thus lose too much power, ability to land strikes,
> and even stability.. falling too easily.
Most of the Muay Thai guys seem to do a pretty good job.
> A Good Striker
Who might this be?
can target anything within its range and take
> it out cold.
But even the best kickers and strikers don't have anything near a 100% strike
rate.
Of course, we are also talking non-sport.. cause
> too many things arnt legal that in fact would be used to
> stop a real attacker trying to ground you.
The 'too deadly' line just makes you look silly. Really.
> Sadly, Ive not seen the fight spoke of.. so I cant make any
> comments about thier tech. But, I can say, that Ive
> fought against some bad and great kickers. The best
> were insanely hard to get anywhere near. As soon
> as you were in kick range.. you were a splitsecond from
> getting a broken rib.. and still way too far away from
> getting a punch in yourself.
You've never trained in effective clinching and takedowns so your attempts were
no doubt unsuccessful.
clipped
9 times out of 10, the sport guys that compete
> dont do such things well. Arnt trained Fully and
> to high degrees, are sloppy, inaccurate, lacking power..etc..
WTF are you talking about?
> so picking off a grappler wont work well at all... which
> is what you used to see...
Uhh?
clipped
> One things for sure.. that Any art thats never dealt
> with another art.. is likly to be tooken a fool.
Well that's a keeper.
Because
> in true fighting, you do not have time to think. You
> must rely on trained reflex most the time. While
> these grapple techs and shoots have worked in the past against
> many strikers.. many of the strikers have seen the
> clues, and trained to counter. They dont even have to
> know the complete grapple/ground game, and can command a bigger
> advantage.
In mma this is currently so for a handful of guys. Most have good ground games.
So...ya found any clips of WT guys beating up mma guys yet? Hmmm?
Why not? It's a digital world. If it was out there and happening, someone would
have a clip, or a pic, or something.
Instead we have plenty of evidence of the opposite...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8692039060969768186&q=MMA+vs+Kung+fu
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7076063312262742465&q=MMA+vs+Kung+fu
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4415907131641125236&q=MMA+vs+Kung+fu
and another kicker who should have known better....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2685066836228704338&q=Travis+fulton
Have a nice day, Steve.
--
GDS
" Let's roll! "
Badger_s
Shame on Extreme Challenge for allowing this mis-match to even occur. They
put a 6 foot tall 240lb fighter against a 5'8" 150lb guy. The kid Bullock
hardly looks bigger than Travis Fulton's arm.
That was the kid's last fight - 1998. Hope he wasn't permanently injured!
-B
xiaou2
>
>> Heres the real drill.. It doesnt really matter if the kicker does
>> know or has skills in clinch and ground.
>
> Complete bullshit.
Well, my wording was a bit off. What was meant was that
while it helps to know those things, its not nessessary for
victory.
A one hit KO, or a one kick leg break is a fight ender.
A person who plays on the inside has to get past that..
and without skills to do so, they may end up taking a
premature nap.
> What matters most,
>> is the ability of the kicker/striker to keep a fighter out
>> of that range.
>
> And how will he do this? You will no doubt advocate better kicking and
> striking skills. There is some merit to that, but that is no reason
> not to learn groundfighting.
Yes and Yes.
I never said "NOT" to learn ground skills. In fact, I believe
the best fighters should know all ranges and skills.
I did say however, say its best to learn in the order of
confronted ranges. Standup first, then grapple/locks, takedowns,
wrestle, Ground..etc.
And, I also stress that knowing inst enough.. one must
perfect the skills and abilitites. A poor/sloppy/slow/weak
technique is basically a worthless one.
>> Many kickers are trained half/assed. Have sloppy unballanced
>> technique.. and thus lose too much power, ability to land strikes,
>> and even stability.. falling too easily.
>
> Most of the Muay Thai guys seem to do a pretty good job.
Muay Thai, at its roots, is an art that practices perfection.
It uses brutal but advantageous training methods. This is
one thing that I admire most about this art (if the people
are training it properly).
However, there are weakness in MT. One is the
shallow depths of the art, Whereas other styles have
a greater variety of abilities.
Another is the slow speeds of thier kicks. Yes, they
have great power.. but can be avoided many times because
of slower speeds and telegraphed motions.
Overall tho, you got the message. These guys in thier
naitive land practice and fight much harder than many
other arts in modern times. Not many people still
kick trees as part of the classroom regimine. =) heh
>> A Good Striker
>
> Who might this be?
>
> can target anything within its range and take
>> it out cold.
>
> But even the best kickers and strikers don't have anything near a 100%
> strike rate.
That is what you see from your viewpoint. However, there
are many non competing people with much higher accuracy and
power genertation ability.
And the ones that do fight may in fact be holding back on
power and accuracy to prolong fights. The reason, is that
they realize many things:
1) A 5 second fight is a waste of peoples money. It can
alienate them from fans.
2) A one hit KO is fairly easy for them, and really doesnt showcase
all thier other fighting abilities.
3) A highly skilled striker can cripple or kill with a full
power strike.
> Of course, we are also talking non-sport.. cause
>> too many things arnt legal that in fact would be used to
>> stop a real attacker trying to ground you.
>
> The 'too deadly' line just makes you look silly. Really.
No. Thats just your ignorance. I can understand why..
because such a thing must be felt to appreciate its
devestation at the 'mid' levels of thier ability.
Untill you feel it, you and many others will not
believe it.
>> Sadly, Ive not seen the fight spoke of.. so I cant make any
>> comments about thier tech. But, I can say, that Ive
>> fought against some bad and great kickers. The best
>> were insanely hard to get anywhere near. As soon
>> as you were in kick range.. you were a splitsecond from
>> getting a broken rib.. and still way too far away from
>> getting a punch in yourself.
>
> You've never trained in effective clinching and takedowns so your
> attempts were no doubt unsuccessful.
You really dont get it.. because youve never actually
fought a 'good' kicker. One whos kicks are litterally
as fast as the fastest of jabs. If you block thier
kick, its already on the ground before you can blink
your eye, and more than likly its already launched at
a new target on you. They reset as fast as they
throw.
No, you cant catch thier legs..they
are too fast for that. You cant just walk into thier kicks
safely... and trying a commited dive could result in
your getting a very serious to fatal blow.
> clipped
>
> 9 times out of 10, the sport guys that compete
>> dont do such things well. Arnt trained Fully and
>> to high degrees, are sloppy, inaccurate, lacking power..etc..
>
> WTF are you talking about?
Basically, youve never seen a very good kicker.
> Because
>> in true fighting, you do not have time to think. You
>> must rely on trained reflex most the time. While
>> these grapple techs and shoots have worked in the past against
>> many strikers.. many of the strikers have seen the
>> clues, and trained to counter. They dont even have to
>> know the complete grapple/ground game, and can command a bigger
>> advantage.
>
> In mma this is currently so for a handful of guys. Most have good
> ground games.
No doubt. But that says what? That only a few have
truely developed thier abilities to good calibur.
Again, you mis my point.. because you think Im arguing
against ground arts. That is not the case.
Im merely stating that you do not have to know
ground arts to deliever a fight/life ending blow. As well
as the fact that the majority of what you see in the ring
currently, is subpar crap compared to the abilities of
each individual art, thier highest levels.
> So...ya found any clips of WT guys beating up mma guys yet? Hmmm?
>
> Why not? It's a digital world. If it was out there and happening,
> someone would have a clip, or a pic, or something.
A sport fight prooves very little. Its not
scientifically accurate in the least bit. Its never a true
representing of any art or ability.
MMA has potential, because it by nature encompases
the idea that the more you know, the better off you
are. However, at its current level.. its a sad state
due to many many factors.
And finally, add WC to any fighters skillset and youll
see that fighters abilities improove monumentally.
Wayne Dobson
news:RH6ah.71875$rP1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> But even the best kickers and strikers don't have anything near a 100%
strike
> rate.
You're wrong. I've seen it televised, in a mai thai/kick boxing match,
where a 19 yr old female fighter landed every kick she threw. Her foot
would catch the opponent in the face on the way up, and catch her in the
head on the way down. Everything landed. Understandably, the opponent
didn't land a blow. I've also seen televised and 18 yr old male fighter
with similar skills. Now these are not the wizened old gentlemen up in some
mountain, that you love to deride. These are young people that I saw it on
the telly.
> Of course, we are also talking non-sport.. cause
> > too many things arnt legal that in fact would be used to
> > stop a real attacker trying to ground you.
>
> The 'too deadly' line just makes you look silly. Really.
When Mike Tyson bit Evander Hollyfield, it had a bigger effect than any of
the punches Tyson had thrown throughout the match.
> > 9 times out of 10, the sport guys that compete
> > dont do such things well. Arnt trained Fully and
> > to high degrees, are sloppy, inaccurate, lacking power..etc..
>
> WTF are you talking about?
Most fighters other than such as Bas Rutten, with a background in Karate and
TKD.
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
>
>>
>>> Heres the real drill.. It doesnt really matter if the kicker does
>>> know or has skills in clinch and ground.
>>
>> Complete bullshit.
>
>
> Well, my wording was a bit off. What was meant was that
> while it helps to know those things, its not nessessary for
> victory.
All evidence is to the contrary.
> A one hit KO, or a one kick leg break is a fight ender.
It is. Other than a king-hit (which any mug can do, you just gotta hope it's
over) these are relatively rare events, usually only seen in complete
mis-matches, like the Mexican and Mr Awesome.
> A person who plays on the inside has to get past that..
And that's what they train to do.
> and without skills to do so, they may end up taking a
> premature nap.
Only by another skilled guy, not a WT guy with chain punches or other baloney.
> I never said "NOT" to learn ground skills. In fact, I believe
> the best fighters should know all ranges and skills.
>
> I did say however, say its best to learn in the order of
> confronted ranges.
No real reason to learn any of the mma skills in any particular order. WT is
deficient in pretty much all of the ranges.
Standup first, then grapple/locks, takedowns,
> wrestle, Ground..etc.
Sure, just don't learn crummy techniques to do so e.g WT.
> And, I also stress that knowing inst enough.. one must
> perfect the skills and abilitites. A poor/sloppy/slow/weak
> technique is basically a worthless one.
Sure...that's WT.
> Muay Thai, at its roots, is an art that practices perfection.
> It uses brutal but advantageous training methods. This is
> one thing that I admire most about this art (if the people
> are training it properly).
It's one of a handfull of really useful ma's. Integrates with the other mma arts
because it shares common fundamentals and trains actively and realistically.
> However, there are weakness in MT. One is the
> shallow depths of the art, Whereas other styles have
> a greater variety of abilities.
What nonsense! Thailand's fighters have been decapitating Kung Fools for decades
and more.
> Another is the slow speeds of thier kicks. Yes, they
> have great power.. but can be avoided many times because
> of slower speeds and telegraphed motions.
I suggest you visit Thailand some time and go to a Thai training camp.
> Overall tho, you got the message. These guys in thier
> naitive land practice and fight much harder than many
> other arts in modern times. Not many people still
> kick trees as part of the classroom regimine. =) heh
A good Thai fighter is a scary piece of work.
>>> A Good Striker
>>
>> Who might this be?
>>
>> can target anything within its range and take
>>> it out cold.
>>
>> But even the best kickers and strikers don't have anything near a 100%
>> strike rate.
>
>
> That is what you see from your viewpoint. However, there
> are many non competing people with much higher accuracy and
> power genertation ability.
Like who? Just so we don't get confused here, 'who' means the name of a person,
just like it does in all other normal conversation.
> And the ones that do fight may in fact be holding back on
> power and accuracy to prolong fights.
Nope. Pros want it to be over asap. The sooner they win, the less chance of
injury.
The reason, is that
> they realize many things:
>
> 1) A 5 second fight is a waste of peoples money. It can
> alienate them from fans.
Or create legends.
> 2) A one hit KO is fairly easy for them, and really doesnt showcase
> all thier other fighting abilities.
Unless it's a total mis-match, this rarely happens.
> 3) A highly skilled striker can cripple or kill with a full
> power strike.
Pretty rare events.
>> Of course, we are also talking non-sport.. cause
>>> too many things arnt legal that in fact would be used to
>>> stop a real attacker trying to ground you.
>>
>> The 'too deadly' line just makes you look silly. Really.
>
>
> No. Thats just your ignorance. I can understand why..
> because such a thing must be felt to appreciate its
> devestation at the 'mid' levels of thier ability.
> Untill you feel it, you and many others will not
> believe it.
Friend, if I were to tell you the names of some of the people I've been hit by
(and I've vainly attempted to hit in return) you would cringe in embarrassment at
those last statements.
>> You've never trained in effective clinching and takedowns so your
>> attempts were no doubt unsuccessful.
>
> You really dont get it.. because youve never actually
> fought a 'good' kicker. One whos kicks are litterally
> as fast as the fastest of jabs. If you block thier
> kick, its already on the ground before you can blink
> your eye, and more than likly its already launched at
> a new target on you. They reset as fast as they
> throw.
>
> No, you cant catch thier legs..they
> are too fast for that. You cant just walk into thier kicks
> safely... and trying a commited dive could result in
> your getting a very serious to fatal blow.
Yes, there are guys like that....GSP, Vanderlei Silva, Maurice Smith, 'Bang'
Ludwig, Genki Sudo and many, many others.
>> WTF are you talking about?
> Basically, youve never seen a very good kicker.
Which of the above are you referring to?
>> Because
>>> in true fighting, you do not have time to think. You
>>> must rely on trained reflex most the time. While
>>> these grapple techs and shoots have worked in the past against
>>> many strikers.. many of the strikers have seen the
>>> clues, and trained to counter. They dont even have to
>>> know the complete grapple/ground game, and can command a bigger
>>> advantage.
>>
>> In mma this is currently so for a handful of guys. Most have good
>> ground games.
>
>
> No doubt. But that says what? That only a few have
> truely developed thier abilities to good calibur.
I'm talking about guys like Mike Hunt and Cro Cop.
> Again, you mis my point.. because you think Im arguing
> against ground arts. That is not the case.
> Im merely stating that you do not have to know
> ground arts to deliever a fight/life ending blow.
Well who said that ground arts had anything to do with death-blows?
As well
> as the fact that the majority of what you see in the ring
> currently, is subpar crap compared to the abilities of
> each individual art, thier highest levels.
Depends on how you define 'crap'. Right now, the best one-on-one fighters on the
planet are mma fighters. Maybe you don't like their style or their attitude but
that's the way it is. The door is always open for some of these amazing WT guys
to step up and prove their superior fighting skills. Which is kinda weird...cos
when there are no rules the WT guys lost...and now there are rules and you're
strutting about with "Oh there are rules now...."
>> So...ya found any clips of WT guys beating up mma guys yet? Hmmm?
>>
>> Why not? It's a digital world. If it was out there and happening,
>> someone would have a clip, or a pic, or something.
>
>
> A sport fight prooves very little.
It proves a lot.
> Its not scientifically accurate in the least bit.
What could be more scientific than two men walk in, one walks out?
>Its never a true
> representing of any art or ability.
Nonsense. What about Pankration? Or Vale Tudo?
> MMA has potential, because it by nature encompases
> the idea that the more you know, the better off you
> are. However, at its current level.. its a sad state
> due to many many factors.
MMA is booming all over the world. WT has become a joke. Get over it and deal
with it.
> And finally, add WC to any fighters skillset and youll
> see that fighters abilities improove monumentally.
Quick...someone tell Fedor, GSP and Monson before it's too late!
Badger_s
<Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> A sport fight prooves very little.
>
>It proves a lot.
Wrestling and boxing are sports. I don't see the 'it's a sport dissing
them'.
>> Its not scientifically accurate in the least bit.
>
>What could be more scientific than two men walk in, one walks out?
>
>
>>Its never a true representing of any art or ability.
>
>Nonsense. What about Pankration? Or Vale Tudo?
Steve seems to feel the fight has to look pretty or something. Well GSP
just had a 'pretty' fight.
>> MMA has potential, because it by nature encompases
>> the idea that the more you know, the better off you
>> are. However, at its current level.. its a sad state
>> due to many many factors.
>
>MMA is booming all over the world. WT has become a joke. Get over it and deal
>with it.
>
>> And finally, add WC to any fighters skillset and youll
>> see that fighters abilities improove monumentally.
In those clips I posted of Gutierrez showing anti grappling note that he
never brings in an actual wrestler, even at HS level, to do an actual shoot
- he always uses fellow students who just walk in, usually with the head
down, and with too much cooperation.
You have to pull the guy and get him to step, or make him swing, lower your
level and go under as he steps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNy5vEPRSOA&NR
-B
Chas
> The relevance is that any other fighter, with the same striking skills as
> GSP, but without GSP's excellent grappling skills, would NOT have shown
> the
> same success against Hughes as GSP did.
You mean you have to know how to fight in order to win?
well, yeah.
Hughes got creamed because he hoped the fight wouldn't stay at his most
uncomfortable distance- GSP won because he neutralized Hughes' strengths and
attacked his weaknesses-
> Only GSP's grappling skills (specifically: takedown defense) allowed the
> fight to be decided at striking range, which is of course where GSP had a
> huge advantage.
The fight started at kicking range- they all do.
Every time you give up range, you've lost a fight- true in war, true in
fistfights.
Hughes' couldn't actualize his skills because GSP fought him over the ranges
leading up to contact range. He beat him to the punch- and smacked him for
moving any closer. When Hughes tried his best shots, GSP neutralized him and
moved back to his preferred tactic.
> Hughes rushing GSP was not a mistake for Hughes; it was his only
> reasonable
> strategy (and usually a very effective one). And GSP didn't counter
> Hughes'
> "rushing" with strikes; it was grappling escapes that got him out of the
> grappling threat.
No; he foiled a dozen attempts by Hughes to set up a take-down.
By beating him to the punch/kick mostly.
The few times that Hughes actually contacted GSP, of course grappling skills
are necessary.
Notice he stood up and moved back into striking range every time- no
attempts at effecting a submission, or going to g&p.
> Because Hughes sucks at standup striking.
Yeah; wrestlers sometimes do.
He sure likes pounding people laying down though- more than trying to submit
them (generally).
> But the important point is that Hughes has ALWAYS sucked at standup
> striking,
> and yet he's been one of the most dominant champions in the world for the
> last few years, with a fabulous MMA record over something like 20 fights
> and
> 4 years, against top competition.
Other grapplers couldn't beat him- it took a full-range fighter.
Newton had more stand-up on the ball than Hughes as well- noted he's an
excellent grappler as well, but his 'natural' range is striking (earliest
training stays longest).
> If this was such a big hole in Hughes' game, why couldn't anyone else
> manage
> to see it and pull off the same kind of victory?
I think Newton won his fight- bad call by the referee.
But I do have to admit that I can't do fighter comparisons with you-
> The answer is that few people in the world have the COMBINATION of
> striking
> and grappling skills that GSP has.
I see some good ones coming out of Canada- the early emphasis on
TKD/kickboxing is generating some guys that combine skills well; Loiseau,
Newton, the cock-eyed one, Cote` (wish he was doing a bit better)- I don't
particularly remember names, just noting the Canadian attribution in the
TotT.
> Striking by itself is simply not sufficient
> to shut down Matt Hughes, as plenty of his victims have demonstrated.
Hell; grappling skills didn't do any better-
Hughes kept his striking for g&p, but nobody was submitting him either
(except Newton- two or three times Hughes got saved).
And, Hughes got saved twice earlier in the fight- both groin strikes would
have been enough to get a good follow-up and finish (although that's not
graven in stone either).
> GSP's
> grappling skills were a necessary part of his winning strategy.
Sure- it's called being an all-round fighter.
I never have touted specialists.
Silat is an all-range fighting system; kick, punch, grasp, take-down,
grapple, ground-fighting. The signal difference is that we don't pretend
that certain targets don't exist, or that certain techniques 'don't work',
or that a weapon might be deployed at any time.
Hughes was a great champion- good boy makes good. In a certain way, I think
GSP will be a more 'beatable' champion than Hughes was- and that's said with
respect to him.
ordo...@gmail.com
Badger_s wrote:
> "Introduces the fourth dimension of time and involves movement of one's
> parts within defined space"
>
> What? Clearly gobbledygook.
>
> The author then goes on to talk about intersecting lines and depth, height
> and width and focal points.
This is a common "painters logic" issue. "I can paint anything".
Paints a boquet of flowers. You point out that thats only the
apperance of a bouquet of flowers. Pat answer. You make another
"point", pat answer. You realize your not intereacting with a person
but a semantic vending machine. Put a quarter in, kerplunk. Put in a
dime, kerplunk. Put in a penny, reject. Put in a canadian quarter,
reject. Its just a preprogramed defense mechanism. Appearance isnt
likeness. Turns it it into a semantic issue. But its not semantics,
apperance isnt likeness.
One time when I was a kid at a mexican resturant with my mothers
friends they had art pictures put up on display around the resturant.
My mothers friends husband keeps indicating the painting nearest to our
table. There is something odd about it. There IS something odd about
it. Takes about 20 minutes for us to figure out what it is. Its a
picture of a mariachi with one foot on a stool playing a guitar. But
the support leg is way too long. It just goes on and on. It was so
hilarious as to be ubsurd. The guy just kept painting the guys leg on
and on and on. You can tell that thats how he finished the painting.
You see this is a common AMATUER artist mistake. Its due to how you
the focal point changes distance from your eye and position to what
your painting. But painters often just paint from fantasy or make it
up as they go along. Some painters like bob ross use a clever 'paint
by numbers" approach of different painting and mixing colors
techniques. Sure hes good, but hes no picaso. If you were to paint a
likeness of a picture, it would LOOK nothing like the real thing on one
dimentional canvas. You would also have to make clear before, while
doing it and after what convention/conventions you used to construct
the painting. Or another could look at yours and see reoccuring themes,
ect.
You cant take a 3d object and put it on 1d and say "apparancy is
reality". The difference between that and the painting is comedy. Its
not funny because they actually take themselves seriously. If you talk
to a ball player he says "he plays ball". You refer to him as a "ball
player". Kung fu is play. Even in china they call it "form play".
You cant take yourself that seriously. Playing forms isnt real
training. A weekend ball player doesnt say: "I'm the source, I *am*
basketball".
The zen mantra: "There is no god, there is no truth, truth is what
comes out of my mouth at that given moment". Readily understood by
most as utter bullshit.
What illustrates the truism about drawing or painting (a step up from
drawing) is that we all went through that phase. When we were kids we
used to draw a lot of ninjas, and I had a friend that would draw them
with smoke or wind below the waist. And you know why. When you start
off on one part of the work it goes fine, till you finish off. The
legs never right, or the arms not right. Or you start from the bottom
up and the heads like "what the fuck" so you draw a bull with horns.
You realize there is a universal truth here and untill you understand
it you'll never get past this issue.
This is what makes a real artist from a faker. There is art and there
is ARTIFICE and ARTIFICE of war is about appearing that something isnt
going on that is and that you know more than you really know. No art
there. Just bullshit. Make thinks up as you go along and hope the
bigger fool that looks up to you doesnt see the inconsistency and
credibility issues. I used to draw a figure then erase the part that
never came out right and drew a rock. This guy thought he could get
by, by painting the footstool but it backfired.
If he saw his mistake he tryed to cover it up, which is also part of
the problem. You can cover up as you go along why didnt you spot the
flaw and change it? Why didnt you adjust your technique to the
obvious, re-occuring mistake? Refinement is the key. As long as your
getting better. But intentionally going around the issue or hiding or
covering up is fradulent.
You cannot gift creative talents. And if your going to teach something
you have to know how it works. Idiot savants cant teach what they
themselves dont understand. Some people can do great things without
seemingly knowing how they do it. They cant teach it to others. You
have to know how it works to know how it doesnt work then teach people
how to teach themselves how to avoid the mistakes everyone does, like
drawing a human figure from a phantasm in your mind and end up erasing
the foot and drawing a log or a rock.
Drawing a ninja with smoke for legs was just cool. But an obvious
cover up for lack of talent and understanding about magnitude, focal
points, ect. If you look at a scupture of a seemingly perfect human
form you'll notice the trick. The base of the statue is part of the
sculpture. Even if its not sculpted its part of the structure and form
of the statue. Close yoru eyes and imagine our ninjas with smoke or
whirlwind as legs. Like a djin or a mermaid they are probably just
archetypes for the same childlike viewpoint of the world. An art
teacher can teach you indirectly why those statues dont have arms or
heads. Trust me the guy probably started off trying to sculpt the arms
but sawed them off.
The deceptions are concealed because someone didnt notate what they
were doing when they are doing it as they progressed to show the
progression of skill and ability. People that perform autopsys have to
notate what they do and see each step of the way. You wont get far not
having documented proof, writing, notes, video and book to show how you
progress and how you thought things were 10 years ago versus last
month.
In art you have creative truth and a creative lie overtakes any
creative truth. You can lie and bullshit as you go along or stay
within the envelope of RULES and REGULATIONS. Make a choice and stick
with it because the latter is a work in progress.
Chas
> Shame on Extreme Challenge for allowing this mis-match to even occur. They
> put a 6 foot tall 240lb fighter against a 5'8" 150lb guy. The kid Bullock
> hardly looks bigger than Travis Fulton's arm.
And notice they went back to stand-up, and he lost to a percussion
technique.
Now put Fulton against Liddell, or half a dozen other LHw's, and see how far
that gets him.
Chas
ordo...@gmail.com
Laszlo wrote:
> I've always said that WC concepts sound like a very intelligent person
> who had never been in a fight took some educated guesses as to what
> happens, and worked out an MA system based on those guesses.
>
> Laszlo
Its worse than that. WC even lied and removed names of moves to
conceal influences from martial arts structures WC violated to invent
something out of the blue. For instance "monk fanning". This is a
technique found in styles like chow gar but its also in meditations.
Its not a block, and its not an attack. Even yip man said it was the
worst technique if done wrong but the best if done right. Which just
means that no one really knows why its there but someone clever can
make it work, usually against a student overwhelmed with the complexity
of "make him confused so he takes it as a challenge to learn". If a
form is real it has names of the moves and they are names that are
1000s of years old from daoyin and meditations not "monkey walks the
railroad". The name conceals things about the posture and if you
remove the name, you alter the technique.
Badger_s
wrote:
Huh? Fulton is the guy with a 172-41-9 record. He's a second or third tier
MMA guy, but, he fought Dan Severn to a draw, fought Forrest Griffen (TKO
cut), fought Evan Tanner (lost), won a fight with Heath "Crazy Horse"
Herring in '99, fought Matt Lindland in '97, drew Jeremy Horn.
I'd say he's gotten pretty far, still fighting as of Sept this year.
(notice he walks with a limp, and still fights.)
-B
Chas
>>Now put Fulton against Liddell, or half a dozen other LHw's, and see how
>>far
>>that gets him.
> MMA guy, but, he fought Dan Severn to a draw, fought Forrest Griffen (TKO
> cut), fought Evan Tanner (lost), won a fight with Heath "Crazy Horse"
> Herring in '99, fought Matt Lindland in '97, drew Jeremy Horn.
So he does well against other grapplers, less so with accomplished strikers.
noted.
> I'd say he's gotten pretty far, still fighting as of Sept this year.
> (notice he walks with a limp, and still fights.)
Somebody kick him?
<g>
Chas