Being a bodyguard
Sam Hulick
Hi fellow masochists, :)
I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
speculating...
Thanks!
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Sam Hulick \ | I don't speak for IU, \ "Uhhh, I don't know."
shu...@indiana.edu \ | nor UCS. \ --Andy Warhol
"All kids love Log." \| UCS JumpStart Assistant \
Steven Weigand
>
>Hi fellow masochists, :)
>
>I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
>bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
>should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
>orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
>about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
>speculating...
>
>Thanks!
>
I think it is safe to say that even if you were a black belt, it still
wouldn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you can street fight
well. Most martial artists can't.
Lemme ask you a question: Are you willing to take a knife in your belly
after getting slashed 5 others places in order to control someone who's
flipped out? Sure it scares you that the guy has a knife, but to be
a bodygaurd, you have to have the mindset that you're gonna get cut and
just go on fighting.
As far as experience is concerned: I think most martial artists do not
have the type of experience that is necessary for being a bodyguard. If
you want to practice, you should try letting a friend of your's take a
large right hook-punch at your jaw and see what happens. It gives you
an understanding of how it feels to be hit and after repeating it long
enough, you can learn how to just take a "piece" of it and not all of
it. There was a good article posted to the net here about that stuff.
I think it was called "sucker punches".
Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
than smaller folks.
Bodyguards should also know all about controlling people with joint-locks,
arm-bars, etc.. Makes life a lot better if you can simply "escort"
someone out of a room without making a fuss.
And if you pass that criteria, there's still a bunch more that the
person(s) you are guarding will put you through. Are you willing to
let yourself get jumped by 4 other bodyguards as a test? :-)
Oh well.. 'nuff said.
- Steve Weigand
(wei...@udel.edu)
Oh yes... When I said "most martial artists", I meant most martial artists
who aren't studying ninjitsu. :-)
Marty
>I think it is safe to say that even if you were a black belt, it still
>wouldn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you can street fight
>well. Most martial artists can't.
I hardly think that statement is true (about most martial artists can't).
Who are most martial artists? And what experience are you judging this on?
I think the question a person for that kind of position would have to ask, is
the same a security gaurd or a police officer has to answer to every day.
Are you willing to knowingly put yourself in a position of danger, on a day
to day basis?
The difference between that, and what martial arts normaly strive for -- to
try and stay out of dangerous positions in the first place, is what I think
Steve was trying to say. As a bodygaurd, you are purposely putting yourself
in a position of immenant danger, many times laying your life on the line.
After all, you are getting paid for protecting someone elses life first, not
your own.
>Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>than smaller folks.
Hardly Steve. This is a very big stereotype. While I will agree that in
crowd situations, (such as security at a rock concert) bigger muscle bound
people are needed (to hold back possible crowd surges, etc), personal body
gaurds most adduredly do NOT have to be big. For example, here at Alpine
Valley (concert place in southeastern Wisconsin), the body guards employed
personally for the performers are small to average size, and all have some
form of martial arts training, be it TKD or whatnot.
Take Randy Williams for example (Wing Chun practitioner from Chicago). He's
hardly a big person, and has been exmployed as a bodyguard for everyone from
Phil Collins to Steven Segal.
Being a big arnold-terminator type is hardly a requirement to be a bodygaurd.
Fighting skills (including restraints), and knowlege of the business are.
>And if you pass that criteria, there's still a bunch more that the
>person(s) you are guarding will put you through. Are you willing to
>let yourself get jumped by 4 other bodyguards as a test? :-)
Where did you get that from?
>- Steve Weigand
> (wei...@udel.edu)
Marty
Do
--
cir...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu What do you care what other people think !?
cir...@convex.csd.uwm.edu Clearly the rantings of a madman...
"..I Believe that entropy will eventually come to..HEY where'd everybody go?"
Sam Hulick
>As far as experience is concerned: I think most martial artists do not
>have the type of experience that is necessary for being a bodyguard. If
>you want to practice, you should try letting a friend of your's take a
>large right hook-punch at your jaw and see what happens. It gives you
>an understanding of how it feels to be hit and after repeating it long
>enough, you can learn how to just take a "piece" of it and not all of
>it. There was a good article posted to the net here about that stuff.
>I think it was called "sucker punches".
But how does one get experience? I'm not going to just walk down the
street shouting "Hey assholes, come get me!" :)
>Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>than smaller folks.
Not always true. There are some really short guys who scare the shit
out of me. *grin* It's all in how one projects oneself.... whether it
be through clothing or attitude.
>Bodyguards should also know all about controlling people with joint-locks,
>arm-bars, etc.. Makes life a lot better if you can simply "escort"
>someone out of a room without making a fuss.
Cool. My judge (at the orange belt test) said my partner and I did
particularly well on the locks and throws. They're very fun to do, too.
:)
>And if you pass that criteria, there's still a bunch more that the
>person(s) you are guarding will put you through. Are you willing to
>let yourself get jumped by 4 other bodyguards as a test? :-)
Uhhh, no thanks! :)
>Oh yes... When I said "most martial artists", I meant most martial artists
>who aren't studying ninjitsu. :-)
Don't forget the mysterious art of no-can-du. :)
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Sam Hulick \ | I don't speak for IU, \ "Uhhh, I don't know."
Sam Hulick
>Take Randy Williams for example (Wing Chun practitioner from Chicago). He's
>hardly a big person, and has been exmployed as a bodyguard for everyone from
>Phil Collins to Steven Segal.
Steven Segal needs a bodyguard??
Circuit
shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) says:
>cir...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>>Take Randy Williams for example (Wing Chun practitioner from Chicago). He's
>>hardly a big person, and has been exmployed as a bodyguard for everyone from
>>Phil Collins to Steven Segal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Steven Segal needs a bodyguard??
Of course. Most celebrities known for some kind of fighting ability do.
Whether they are regular bodyguards or their own students.
Most big name boxers have bodyguards when they go out in public, as do
movie fighters.
It's generally to keep away harassers (the press, or unwanted fanfare), and
the odd wierdo that could come up wanting to attack you, or pull a gun on
you. I'm sure if you were in their position, you wouldn't want to deal
with this all the time either.
Steven Weigand
>wei...@opus.ee.udel.edu (Steven Weigand) says:
>
>>I think it is safe to say that even if you were a black belt, it still
>>wouldn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you can street fight
>>well. Most martial artists can't.
>
>try and stay out of dangerous positions in the first place, is what I think
>Steve was trying to say. As a bodygaurd, you are purposely putting yourself
>in a position of immenant danger, many times laying your life on the line.
>After all, you are getting paid for protecting someone elses life first, not
>your own.
Yeah, that's certainly true about putting yourself in danger, but that's
not what I meant when I said that most martial artists can't street fight.
Especially not traditional martial artists (you know, the same people who
train without shoes, never kicking to the groin because it would be
disrespectful to your opponent, that sorta thing). I admit, there are
some wonderful traditional martial artists that could kick some butt
bigtime on the street, but for the most part, *I* don't believe this
can be said about most martial artists (traditional and nontraditional).
This is due to the fact that most people don't train properly for the
street. They're never put in danger of their life, like in a brawl situation,
for example. Heck, they may spar and stuff, but it's not the same thing
as an all-out no-holds-barred do-anything-to-survive-even-hitting-to-the-
groin-and-eyes fight.
Now... I've seen some wonderful things from jun-fan and the like
regarding "street fighting". They train specifically for such an event.
I just saw a video tape series on this type of training, called,
"Panic Attack". The students (chu fen do) wear so much light-weight
padding that it allows them to really bash the hell out of their opponents
using anything. 2, 3, and 4 on one attacks were shown. Psychology of
street fighting was shown. Why don't we see this type of training
in our traditional martial arts schools? Answer: Not many people
want to go through this much agony in training. They simply would
not find it enjoyable at all. Thus the schools go out of business
due to lack of people. It takes a certain person to willingly put
him/herself through this much training. The brawls (3 and 4 on one)
usually last for a few minutes of constant beating... with REAL
kicks and punches. There is real constant pain involved in these
drills. The fear is real. The idea is survival. Your 3 or 4
opponents are told not to hold back at all.
>>Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
>>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>>than smaller folks.
>
>Hardly Steve. This is a very big stereotype. While I will agree that in
Well... Our friend is asking how to get into the bodyguard business.
I told him that he should be big. Is that wrong? Well, to answer that
question, I'll pose another question: Suppose you have 5 applicants for
a bodyguarding position and you are to decide which one to choose. 4 out
of the 5 applicants were 5'4" tall and weighed apx 150 lbs each. The
other one was 6'3" tall and weighed 250lbs. Hmmm... Which one would at
first sight be favored? All I'm saying is that it is in your best
interest to be big! Gives you an advantage both in being selected to
be a bodyguard and, as I said before, since you are big, you are more
intimidating to people on the street. Hell, noone's going to pick a
fight with a guy that looks like he could squash him in one swoop...
they're going to pick on the short guy, the guy they think they've
got a good chance at winning a fight against.
>Take Randy Williams for example (Wing Chun practitioner from Chicago). He's
>hardly a big person, and has been exmployed as a bodyguard for everyone from
>Phil Collins to Steven Segal.
>
>Being a big arnold-terminator type is hardly a requirement to be a bodygaurd.
>Fighting skills (including restraints), and knowlege of the business are.
>
>>And if you pass that criteria, there's still a bunch more that the
>>person(s) you are guarding will put you through. Are you willing to
>>let yourself get jumped by 4 other bodyguards as a test? :-)
>
>Where did you get that from?
Hey, if I'm picking a bodyguard for my own personal self, I want to
know that this guy is dependable. After all, I'm putting my life in his
hands. There must be trust there. If the guy doesn't like being tested,
then he can go take his attitude somewhere else. He has to be willing
to get his butt kicked even if the odds are highly against him. He can't
become a cry-baby at the first sight of blood running down his face. After
a while of bodyguarding, you of course build up a good resume with lots of
references, so you probably won't have to go through that sort of thing.
Of course... All of this is my own personal belief. Noone has to
believe what I am saying to be the way it is. Seems to make sense to
me, that's all.
Sam: Heck, you could try for the bodyguarding thing. It'd be a real good
experience for you in terms of martial arts. It does take a certain
amount of mental preparation, which you can achieve even though
you're only a wee-little orange belt. :-) I recommend that if you
are sincere, try preparing mentally for it right away, and then
apply for a position somewhere. The worst thing they could do is
turn you down, but at least you find out what the industry wants in
a bodyguard.
>
> >- Steve Weigand
> > (wei...@udel.edu)
>Marty
>Do
>cir...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu What do you care what other people think !?
-Steve Weigand
(wei...@udel.edu)
Ad absurdum per aspera
Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
real life.
Dunno if this is just an American thing or true the world over,
but celebrity brings out the most amazing cross section of the
human race. They get stalked, knifed, shot, harassed, you name it.
Even if it weren't for the weirdos -- some of whom have guns or
knives -- you'd probably find that the day was too short and your
agenda too full to play with every palooka who got a couple of
beers in him and wanted to see if you were really all that tough.
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Sam Hulick
>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
>
>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
>real life.
But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
problem defending himself....
The Wandering Ghost
>
>I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
>bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
>should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
>orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
>about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
>speculating...
>
Steven>after getting slashed 5 others places in order to control someone who's
Steven> Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
Steven> pack it up.
Steven> should also know all about controlling people with joint-locks,
Steven> And if you pass that criteria, there's still a bunch more that the
Steven> person(s) you are guarding will put you through. Are you willing to
Steven> let yourself get jumped by 4 other bodyguards as a test? :-)
Ok, guys, let's cut the crap :) (Steven, quite nice job description...)
the bottom line is:
ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR SOMEONE FOR MONEY ?
Because in the end, that's what it comes to. You put your body in the
line of fire, solely for the money. Dirty business, unless you are into some
security service or other and BELIEVE in what you are doing. To me, it amounts
to something near to prostitution: you are selling your body, blood and life
for money.
--izar
--
iz...@cs.huji.ac.il +++ HUJI CS Dept. +++ Systems Group +++ Jerusalem, Israel +
+ "...Though I shall walk in the Valley of Death, I shall fear no evil, +
+ cause God is with me, and I am the meanest sunofabitch in the Valley." +
++++++++++++++++++++++++ I can't speak for HUJI, I don't even have the accent+
Eric Sotnak
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
A popular film star can't very well go around yanking arms off fans who
only want an autograph and are just a little too pushy about it....
(Sam Hulick):
>But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
>real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
>problem defending himself....
It's not so controversial. His 6-dan in aikido was awarded by the current
Aiki Doshu, Kisshomaru Ueshiba. And when I visited his dojo in Osaka about
9 years back (DAMN! Am I really getting that old?), the aikido was fully
within the parameters of what I'd call mainstream IAF aikido.
What may be controversial is whether or not
his philosophical interpretation(s) of aikido are in keeping with those of
the founder. But he's hardly unique in that respect.
--
********************************************************************
Eric Sotnak | The owner of this signature is
es...@troi.cc.rochester.edu | under construction. We apologize
| for the inconvenience.
Brad S. Speierman
>shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) says:
>>cir...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>>>Take Randy Williams for example (Wing Chun practitioner from Chicago). He's
>>>hardly a big person, and has been exmployed as a bodyguard for everyone from
>>>Phil Collins to Steven Segal.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Steven Segal needs a bodyguard??
When you have the kind of money that someone like Steven Segal has you don't
want to have to hit people. You have to remember that even if you are in the
right you will probably be sued for something or other when the person you hits
knows that you have money in the bank. Just picture this, Segal gets attacked
by some idiot. He subdues him but doesn't even seriously hurt the person.
Someone saw it happen, they call the newspaper or one of those shows like Hard
Copy. It makes the news. Next thing you know the guy that attacked Segal
has to get his phone number changed because it won't stop ring because every
lawyer in the country wants to help him out and take Segal to court. Even
if Segal won the case think of all the money he would have to spend on lawyers
to defend him not to mention that he would have to put other things on hold.
It sure is a lot easier to have a bodyguard that works for some company that
already has insurance and lawyers to take care of any problems that arise from
situations like that.
My $.02,
Brad
--
*******************************************************************************
* Brad Speierman * "Whichever way your pleasure tends *
* bss...@sed.csc.com * If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind" *
* (410)684-3569 * Robert Hunter *
Terry Chan
+>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
Joe Chew:
+>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
+>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
+>real life.
Sam again:
+But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
+real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
+problem defending himself....
Sam, you're missing the point of Joe's article. Whether Segal
has a black belt in aikido or not, merely being a celebrity
(and particularly the type of celebrity he is), he's going to
be hassled by a lot of people. These people may include relatively
innoculous types such as gawkers and autograph seekers, and there
are those who may stalk and shoot 'em or want to challenge 'em.
Why the hell would you want to hassle with 'em all yourself?
You can't go around try to break everybody's bones. Even if
you're justified, the hassles of being in court all the time will
screw up your movie making schedule, at a minimum. Hell, aikido
ain't gonna help you if someone stalks and shoots you from some
distance.
The point is, it's a good idea for him to have a bodyguard because
of the nature his business. The notion of personal defense skills
is not really relevant.
Terry "Sometimes, myopia is as far as I can see" Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWC...@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Just tiptoeing through the tulips...
Dan Casson
>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>than smaller folks.
>
> (wei...@udel.edu)
>
I guess Van Halen should fire Benny "the jet" as there bodyguard
because he's not that big.
--
===========================================================================
Dan Casson Phone: (818) 393-1284
Jet Propulsion Laboratory Internet: dca...@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov
4800 Oak Grove Drive
Dennis Hai Choon Sithoo
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
>>
>>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
>>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
>>real life.
Yes. When in public he has bodyguards. I know this because I saw him enter
a theater opening of one of his movies once, and reporters made note of
his team of bodyguards.
>But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
>real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
>problem defending himself....
(First off: Can you fill me in on this "Aikido controversy" please.^_^)
Sure. There's no question about it. Mr.Seagal can protect himself. BUT he
needs big strong, intimidating bodyguards to keep his fans away from him.I
have seen these bodyguards form a sort of perimeter around Mr.Seagal in
order to keep the pressure from the crowd away from him. If they weren't
there then Mr.Seagal would be at risk of being crushed, and or assaulted
by some weapon or another.
Another factor might be the "Bruce Lee" problem. Mr. Lee used to have to
deal with a lot of egotists who wanted to see if they could "take on " the
great Bruce Lee. With a team of bodyguards, those hot-shots would think twice.
Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
lucifuge
>to something near to prostitution: you are selling your body, blood and life
>for money.
Shit man, you do *that* anyway...
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lord is my Shepherd............................but I'm not a Sheep
------------------...@unix1.tcd.ie-------------------------
Sam Hulick
>Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
>ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
Steve Gombosi
>wei...@opus.ee.udel.edu (Steven Weigand) writes:
>>As far as experience is concerned: I think most martial artists do not
>>have the type of experience that is necessary for being a bodyguard. If
>>you want to practice, you should try letting a friend of your's take a
>>large right hook-punch at your jaw and see what happens. It gives you
>>an understanding of how it feels to be hit and after repeating it long
>>enough, you can learn how to just take a "piece" of it and not all of
>>it. There was a good article posted to the net here about that stuff.
>>I think it was called "sucker punches".
>
>But how does one get experience? I'm not going to just walk down the
>street shouting "Hey assholes, come get me!" :)
You're not?????
I'd suggest police/military/FBI/Secret Service experience - the
bodyguards I've met generally have such a background. Except, of course,
for the ones who had biker/Mafia backgrounds. Be prepared to
be hurt. A lot. Be prepared to be shot at. Occasionally. Being
cut is a given.
Do not expect to sleep with Whitney Houston.
It's a lousy way to make a living, unless you *really* want to
spend your entire life strongarming psychos and worrying that
you missed one (while being buffeted by anonymous crowds of
well-meaning but nevertheless dangerous fans whom you are
not permitted to hurt).
>>Bodyguards should also know all about controlling people with joint-locks,
>>arm-bars, etc.. Makes life a lot better if you can simply "escort"
>>someone out of a room without making a fuss.
>
>Cool. My judge (at the orange belt test) said my partner and I did
>particularly well on the locks and throws. They're very fun to do, too.
>:)
But are they fun to do in limited space against someone with a 9mm who is
trying to blow your client's brains (and therefore yours, since you're in
the way) out? Remember that you can't do anything which might result
in an accidental discharge in your client's direction.
Bodyguards are cannon fodder. Not my idea of a fun profession,
thank you.
Steve
Steve Gombosi
>Sam Hulick:
> +>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
>
>Joe Chew:
> +>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
> +>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
> +>real life.
>
>Sam again:
> +But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
> +real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
> +problem defending himself....
>
>Sam, you're missing the point of Joe's article. Whether Segal
>has a black belt in aikido or not, merely being a celebrity
>(and particularly the type of celebrity he is), he's going to
>be hassled by a lot of people. These people may include relatively
>innoculous types such as gawkers and autograph seekers, and there
I assume these "innoculous" types just want to needle him, right?
Steve
Hal Render
: umsi...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dennis Hai Choon Sithoo) writes:
: >Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
: >ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
:
: Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
: really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
I've spent some time with a 3rd-dan with over 30 years of experience in MA,
19 in Aikido. He is fond of saying, "I'd just like to be as good as Seagal's
uke."
--
hal render
univ. of colorado at colorado-springs
ren...@massive.uccs.edu
Terry Chan
+>has a black belt in aikido or not, merely being a celebrity
+>(and particularly the type of celebrity he is), he's going to
+>be hassled by a lot of people. These people may include relatively
+>innoculous types such as gawkers and autograph seekers, and there
s...@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
+I assume these "innoculous" types just want to needle him, right?
Sure. They want to do give him acupuncture with AIDS-infected needles.
Terry "Oops! Thought this was afu." Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWC...@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Myopia is as far as the eye can see.
Executive Protection Assoc
Well I couldn't let this one go by without a comment or several in this case
:-)
1. Professional Bodyguards (called Personal Protection Specialists these
days) are highly trained in the most important aspect of the business
namely AVOIDANCE. It does NOT matter how good a street fighter u
are, nor how large you are. I'm 6'5" and one of my best contractors
is a woman and 5"3".
2. If you want to be a professional then do the training in threat
assessment, coreography, pre-planning, etc. Most "bodyguards"
assesment, pre-planning, and the like. The LAST thing you would
want to do is stick around and fight it out. Your first and only
goal is to remove the principal to safety.
3. If you want to fight all the time, be unprofessional then work as
a goon for a crook. If you want to be a professional and get paid
as one then get some adequate training. Martial Arts is only a small
portion of the training you need. Statistically your principal is
more likely to get injured in a car wreck, fire, heart attack, or
home related accident, than he or she is from a bad guy.
4. If you're really interested and want to be professional, drop me
a line and I'd talk to you on e-mail personally.
D
D
B
B
B
B
Steven Weigand (wei...@opus.ee.udel.edu) wrote:
:
Executive Protection Assoc
OK, enough crap about Bodyguards. Here are some facts to chew on:
Average pay is $35K - $70K per year, not including benifits
Benefits usually include: Medical/Dental/401K/Long term
Disability Insurance supplement (for obvious reasons)
Average work schedule is 12 hrs on and 13 off, unless you
have a large client, it may be less. Smaller clients demand
24 hour readiness.
Schooling: Minimum AA degree, usually in Admin Justice
or Sociology. Most professionals require
Bachelors with specialized training in
Executive Protection (6 week minimum full time)
Advanced First Aid (Emergency Medical Technician
Preferred), Community CPR, Offensive and Defensive
Driving with formal skid pad training. Firearms
Qualification, A current guard card, baton card,
chemical agent card, and of course firearms card.
Other: Eligable for CCW permit preferred (requires ex-military
or law enforcement experience. ** As a side note most
of the stuff done in Hollywood is by off duty/reserve
police officers, or by established firms.
Insurance: CA requires minimum of $500K liability bond or
certificate of insurance.
Most Bodyguards here operate under Licensed Private
Investigators.
Martial Arts: Preferred, however most techniques for close quarters
disarming are taught in the formal bodyguard schools.
Hope this information helps to answer some peoples questions.
Please direct any questions or flames to:
Chris Hall
Marketing Director
Executive Protection Associates, Inc.
Internet: cnt...@netcom.com
:wq
Charles Yeomans
>umsi...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dennis Hai Choon Sithoo) writes:
>>Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
>>ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
>
>Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
>really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
So, who have you heard this from, and who are those people?
Charles Yeomans
Steve Gombosi
>>Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
>>ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
>
>Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
>really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
I've met people who have had the opportunity to train with him - they
certainly haven't had anything negative to say about his ability *or*
his teaching skills. His PR folks have certainly managed to spread
a lot of "truth enhancement" around concerning his background, but
I don't think his Aikido rank falls into that category. If you
*really* wanted to know, you could always write to the Aikido Hombu
dojo in Tokyo and ask. The address is:
Aikikai World Headquarters
International Aikido Federation
17-18 Wakamatsu-cho
Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo 162
Japan
Of course, it might just be easier to check his entry in Stan Pranin's
Aiki Encyclopedia (published by Shamballah). Pranin (the editor of
_Aiki_News_) took great pains to verify ranks claimed by people mentioned
there. Most legitimate dan ranks in Japanese or Okinawan styles are pretty
easy to verify.
Steve
Joseph Talmadge
>In article <C5uzq...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>>
>>
>>I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
>>bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
>>should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
>>orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
>>about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
>>speculating...
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>
>wouldn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you can street fight
>well. Most martial artists can't.
My instructor was a bodyguard in the far east for a while, and then
became a bodyguard instructor, after his muay Thai career. Now he runs
one of a few "certified" body guarding schools in CA (apparently,
there's some kind of bodyguarding organization that certifies schools).
I think the standard fee is $2000/student, which is about average.
I haven't gone through the bodyguarding training myself, but from
extensive conversations with my instructor, it seems as if there
is much more to it than just being a good fighter. One of the things
we discussed was gunfighting tactics should you end up in a firefight;
there are tactical differences between the self-defense situation
and the protect-the-client-at-all-costs situation. ANd there are many
other differences between self-defense tactics and save-the-client
tactics.
I don't know if you need some sort of certification to take a
bodyguarding job, and I'm sure there are good bodyguards out there who
have never taken a class. But these bodyguarding instructors know a
shitload of stuff that will help you keep yourself and your client
alive. I personally wouldn't become a bodyguard without proper
training. But getting training will cost ya. BTW, have you had much
firearms training?
Ray Terry
: Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
: really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
Don't believe everything you hear...
Ray
William T. Rankin
> Be prepared to
> be hurt. A lot. Be prepared to be shot at. Occasionally. Being
> cut is a given.
>
> Do not expect to sleep with Whitney Houston.
damnit, gombo, now you've shot down all my plans...
> Bodyguards are cannon fodder. Not my idea of a fun profession,
> thank you.
yup, and let's not confuse the age old (3000 years?) profession of
bar bouncer with that of bodyguard. the two are distinct.
-bill
--
/ __/ / /
bill rankin / / /
wra...@egr.duke.edu ___ / / / /
graduate weenie / / / / /
/ / / / /
_______/ __/ __/ __/
Joseph Talmadge
> shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>>But how does one get experience? I'm not going to just walk down the
>>street shouting "Hey assholes, come get me!" :)
>
>
>I'd suggest police/military/FBI/Secret Service experience - the
>bodyguards I've met generally have such a background. Except, of course,
>be hurt. A lot. Be prepared to be shot at. Occasionally. Being
>cut is a given.
>
>Do not expect to sleep with Whitney Houston.
And what makes you think Sam hasn't *already* slept with Whitney Houston?
Jeez, talk about presumptious.
Joe
Mike Coonrod
Most of the bodyguards job is keeping his client out of potentialy
dangerous situations. And controlling the situation if it is
potentialy dangerous.
I asked Leroy Thompson about bodyguards using less than lethal weapons
, and his answer was "pros don't brawl".
If faced with a knife attack I would think that the bodyguard would
possibly be justified in shooting the perp. But thats just my opinion.
All disclaimers apply.
I once talked to a very successful bodyguard doing Corp. VIP protection
and he said that the most difficult part of his job was buying enough
$1200.00 suits so that he didn't look out of place in board meetings
with his client.
First Aid knowledge and the ability to plan safe routes when traveling
are very important.
There is a famous picture of Gen. Swartzkoff (sp) in Iraq leaving a
building surrounded by his six personal body guards. These guys look
medium sized and each one of them look mean as a snake. Think of the
pool of pros he had to chooze from, I bet those guys are the best.
Some people make money providing armed and armored lemo. service to and
from the airport.
curt williams
>to day basis?
I think the only danger you're likely to be in on a daily basis
is the danger of being bored shitless. But I guess it might be
worth it if the bucks are good enough.
Jason Spencer
then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
exam you take is for Nidan. After that, it's "dedication to the art,"
and there are essays due, etcetera. In that sense, some people might say
that ALL Aikido ranks above Nidan are honorary. What matters is what a
person's Sensei believes about them in any art, and this doesn't mean that
Aikido senseis don't take physical ability into consideration.
However, Segal's promotion does seem a bit...strange.
Jason Spencer.
Neil_Gendzwill
>I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughter,
>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
>exam you take is for Nidan. After that, it's "dedication to the art,"
>and there are essays due, etcetera. In that sense, some people might say
>that ALL Aikido ranks above Nidan are honorary. What matters is what a
>person's Sensei believes about them in any art, and this doesn't mean that
>Aikido senseis don't take physical ability into consideration.
Hmmm. Well, my aikido experience is short (about a year), but Seagal
seems to move well to my eye. Certainly he looks better than the shodan
and nidan students in my club, but I probably don't have the experience
to make even that much of a call. Especially from just watching film.
What piqued my curiosity was the comment about grading. No physical exam
after nidan? This seems kind of bogus to me - can any other aikidoka
confirm this? In kendo we have physical examinations to hachidan (8
to the terminolgically illiterate). The teaching certificates
(renshi, kyohsi, hanshi) seem to be more or less a nod to time in or
accomplishment, but the dan ranks are earned in front of committees.
You can't get rokudan by marrying your sensei's daughter, unless he
can convince the other dozen or so guys on the grading committee.
Feeling cocky today having just scored a carbon graphite shinai...
------------------------------------------------------------------- _
| Gain peace of mind: wack someone over the head with a big stick | ---
------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| Neil Gendzwill, Saskatoon Kendo Club | s...@skorpio.usask.ca | | | /
------------------------------------------------------------------- | |/
Dave Smythe
>2, 3, and 4 on one attacks were shown.
>Why don't we see this type of training
>in our traditional martial arts schools? Answer: Not many people
>want to go through this much agony in training. They simply would
>not find it enjoyable at all. Thus the schools go out of business
>due to lack of people. It takes a certain person to willingly put
>him/herself through this much training. The brawls (3 and 4 on one)
>usually last for a few minutes of constant beating... with REAL
>kicks and punches. There is real constant pain involved in these
>drills. The fear is real. The idea is survival. Your 3 or 4
>opponents are told not to hold back at all.
Well, if three or four opponents can't literally kill one unarmed and
padded student of (presumably) similar experience, then it is no mystery
to me why the schools went out of business.
If you are really going full-bore, you will injure each other badly.
I assume you leave out all of the nasty stuff, like eye gouges and
joint breaks, but even then it isn't all that intrinsically difficult
to learn to strike through padding. And if they really are dressed
up like the Stay-puft Marshmallow Man, then how useful is fighting
like that? As far as I can tell, either they were sparring, or they
were inept. That doesn't mean that sparring isn't important (we
place a lot of emphasis on it) but I have a hard time believing that
one can continue to take full-force strikes from a competent striker
without permanent damage. Certainly, if it is 3 or 4 on 1, then
a 2 minute bout is more than enough time to damage the 1.
D
--
========================================================================
Dave Smythe N6XLP dsm...@netcom.com (also dsm...@cs.stanford.edu)
Eric Sotnak
[..]
> But in Aikido, the last physical
>exam you take is for Nidan. After that, it's "dedication to the art,"
>and there are essays due, etcetera. In that sense, some people might say
>that ALL Aikido ranks above Nidan are honorary. What matters is what a
>person's Sensei believes about them in any art, and this doesn't mean that
>Aikido senseis don't take physical ability into consideration.
Not so, there are provisions in the United States Aikido Federation for
tests at least through 4-dan. Promotions by recommendation below 4-dan are
rare. Most people test at least through 3-dan.
Brian Vickers
spe...@equinox.unr.edu (Jason Spencer) wrote:
>
> I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughter,
> then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th).
>
Since when is Kelly LeBrock's dad an aikido sensei?
-- Brian
brian_...@isd.jpl.nasa.gov
.sig-less
Ray Terry
: Since when is Kelly LeBrock's dad an aikido sensei?
She is not his first wife...
Ray
Andrew F. Maddox
from a friend, and they're pretty good. The specific situations
with multiple attackers _did_ involve padding, headgear and all, to
keep people from getting badly hurt. As Tony Blauer (the Chu Fen Do
founder-type) explained in the voiceovers, these drills are done
to provide MENTAL conditioning. He's getting his students used to
being jumped in various situations (coming out of a car, walking
through a bar, etc.) so they won't lose their heads if the sh*t
does go down. The padding's fairly light, so I'd bet the subjects
did get some nasty bruises, but the panic attacks aren't (as far
as I could tell) meant for building physical toughness. Blauer
said that he has his students do lots of kickboxing-style sparring
for that, and included a fair amount of that in the tapes.
Blauer's students aren't physical monsters - he doesn't seem to
do THAT much hard "beat on you with a stick" training, and I don't
think his students could take someone who trains in a professional
manner for kickboxing (US, international, Thai, whatever) in a
"fair fight." But, Mr. B has some good ideas about mental
conditioning, and most of his students are probably pretty
comfortable with threatening situations on the street, if they take
the training to heart.
If there's anyone out there who has trained with Mr. Blauer, please
chime in and give _your_ opinion!
Shooting marshmallows at the moon,
Andy the Maddox
--
Word of the day: The child is grown, the dream is gone...
|: School of Public Affairs : bu...@wam.umd.edu :|
|: Univ. of MD, College Park : am...@umail.umd.edu :|
|: Insert standard disclaimer here - or don't :|
Charles T Huff
>I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughter,
>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
>exam you take is for Nidan.
Not necessarily. I've witnessed one test for sandan and another for
yondan (!). I know of at least one other person (aside from the test
I saw) who was tested for sandan as well.
>However, Segal's promotion does seem a bit...strange.
Can't comment on that. If his rank is indeed recognized by Hombu, I'd
be inclined to regard it as legitimate.
>Jason Spencer.
--
Charlie Huff
Allanpaul Uy
>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
The first promotion (5th) was because he was the chief instructor at
his wife's parent's dojo. It doesn't look good when a nidan is the
head instructor! 8-)
>exam you take is for Nidan. After that, it's "dedication to the art,"
>and there are essays due, etcetera. In that sense, some people might say
>that ALL Aikido ranks above Nidan are honorary. What matters is what a
>person's Sensei believes about them in any art, and this doesn't mean that
>Aikido senseis don't take physical ability into consideration.
I'm not sure, but I think that this probably depends on the
association, because I've seen 3rd dan and 4th dan tests, where they
were actually tested. More during the 3rd dan than the 4th dan
though. These were under Aikikai affiliation.
Allan
Jim Uzgiris
>
> But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
Why is there controversy about Seagal's aikido credentials? He's
not just a yudansha, he's a Shihan for christs sake. You don't get that if
there's any question about your commitment to the art.
David James Alexander Hanley
>
>I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughter,
>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
I don't know if that is true or not in aikikai, but in yoshinkan the
cutoff point is Godan, which my teacher just tested for an passed.
He did say further promotions would need to be earned by benifiting
the art. In any case, I do think a 6th dan would more-than-likely have
better technique than a nidan. eh?
dave
Jeff Pipkins
: In article <C5wGw...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
: >umsi...@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Dennis Hai Choon Sithoo) writes:
: >>Again...what's this controversy? Mr. Seagal was the first westerner to
: >>ever open an Aikido dojo in Japan.
: >
: >Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
: >really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
[snip]
: Of course, it might just be easier to check his entry in Stan Pranin's
: Aiki Encyclopedia (published by Shamballah). Pranin (the editor of
: _Aiki_News_) took great pains to verify ranks claimed by people mentioned
: there. Most legitimate dan ranks in Japanese or Okinawan styles are pretty
: easy to verify.
I've seen that entry. It does list Seagal as a 6th dan. It also mentions
that he married a Japanese woman. It doesn't say who the woman was related
to.
But we all know that now Seagal is married to Kelly "don't hate me because
I'm beautiful" LeBrock. Well, WHAT HAPPENED?! Was his first wife the
daughter of his sensei? Did they get divorced? If so, was it after he was
awarded 6th dan? Somebody come across with some facts, or else I'll cross
post to alt.folklore.urban!
I dunno, maybe he has two wives now. That's very "aiki", don'tcha know...
Jeff=Pipkins%FW=Util%Sys=H...@bangate.compaq.com
------------------------------------------------------------------- [sig #74]
I am NOT authorized to represent |
my employer. Use my opinions | He ain't heavy, he's my uke...
ONLY at your OWN risk. |
Aki Fleshler
>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physical
>exam you take is for Nidan. After that, it's "dedication to the art,"
ignorance by testing people for sandan, yondan, godan ... :-)
Really, folks: spencer echos the folklore, but there are plenty
of counterexamples. To my knowledge, ANY dan grade from hombu can
be granted by recommendation. I have seen formal tests through godan.
I can imagine why upper dan tests are unlikely (most of those folks are
Shihan) but not impossible/forbidden. Has anyone heard of 6,7,8 dan
tests??? If so, please qualify: what organization? what epoch?
>and there are essays due, etcetera. In that sense, some people might say
>that ALL Aikido ranks above Nidan are honorary. What matters is what a
>person's Sensei believes about them in any art, and this doesn't mean that
>Aikido senseis don't take physical ability into consideration.
>
>However, Segal's promotion does seem a bit...strange.
--
Aki Fleshler * ak...@sequent.com
Sequent Computer Systems Inc. * (503) 578-4570
15450 SW Koll Parkway, RHE2-775 * FAX (503) 578-7569
Beaverton OR 97006-6063 *
Steve Gombosi
>In article <1993Apr23.0...@physics.unr.edu>,
>spe...@equinox.unr.edu (Jason Spencer) wrote:
>>
>> I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughter,
>> then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th).
>>
>
>Since when is Kelly LeBrock's dad an aikido sensei?
She is his second wife. He was previously married in Japan.
Steve
Brian Rush
Could somebody please list (for us beginners) the names of the the
various xxxdan ranks and what they correspond to? I did not see this in
the FAQ. Thanks.
Jennifer Gates
>In article <C5uzq...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shu...@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>>
>>Hi fellow masochists, :)
>>
>>I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
>>bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
>>should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
>>orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
>>about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
>>speculating...
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>Sam Hulick \ | I don't speak for IU, \ "Uhhh, I don't know."
>
>I think it is safe to say that even if you were a black belt, it still
>wouldn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you can street fight
>well. Most martial artists can't.
>
>Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>than smaller folks.
Oh really... The only body guard I ever knew looked like a REALY
wimpy mild mannered guy. I guess it depends on who you are being a
body guard for....
Other graphic stuff cut***
>
> - Steve Weigand
> (wei...@udel.edu)
Gambatte kudasai,
Jennife Gates
ca....@forsythe.stanford.edu
David L. Williams
>really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
Nope...other than his hokey stories about CIA stuff when it comes to
aikido Seagal is the real deal--this is secondhand from a relative who
has seen him work out in New York with Yamada sensei.
One thing to remember is that after about 4th dan in most arts its
pretty much honorifics anyway.
David Williams
garry hodgson
jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
>
>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
>real life.
But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
problem defending himself....
That's not the point. Muhammed Ali also used to travel with one or more
bodyguards. I'd assume he could defend himself, as well. But consider:
If, while pounding an attacker's head into mush, he bruised a knuckle,
and thus missed a fight, how many $millions might that cost him?
Besides, once you have a reputation as a tough guy, every two bit punk
(like the guys outside Peter Capell's dojo :-) wants to prove himself
against you. The old FastestGunInTheWest syndrome. Even if you know you
can take these guys, do you want to bother getting into fights everytime
you go to McDonalds or the movies?
--
Garry Hodgson A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs A night like forever
ga...@alice.att.com Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry Float like a feather
Ted A. Camus
ak...@sequent.com (Aki Fleshler) writes:
> Someone better tell those folks at hombu dojo to stop exposing their
> ignorance by testing people for sandan, yondan, godan ... :-)
> Really, folks: spencer echos the folklore, but there are plenty
> of counterexamples. To my knowledge, ANY dan grade from hombu can
> be granted by recommendation. I have seen formal tests through godan.
> I can imagine why upper dan tests are unlikely (most of those folks are
> Shihan) but not impossible/forbidden. Has anyone heard of 6,7,8 dan
> tests??? If so, please qualify: what organization? what epoch?
In many cases a high-level grading is not really a formal test
but rather a simple demonstration of skill. In such a case
the testee him/herself decides on what moves to demonstrate, such
as a favorite kata and some basics. A high-level instructor really
only needs to see a few minutes of a tester's MA to see if they
know their stuff or not. My Aikido instructor received 4th dan
from the IMAF (International MA Federation) in such a manner --
-- Ted --
--
==========================================================
Ted Camus Box 1910 CS Dept
t...@cs.brown.edu Brown University
t...@browncs.BITNET Providence, RI 02912
David James Alexander Hanley
(Brian Rush ) says:
>
>
>Could somebody please list (for us beginners) the names of the the
>various xxxdan ranks and what they correspond to? I did not see this in
>the FAQ. Thanks.
>
1st = shodan
2nd ( ni ) = nidan
3rd ( san ) = sandan
4th ( shi ) = yondan ( it's a pecularity of japanese language )
5th ( go ) = godan
6th ( rok ) = rokudan
More-or-less... etc,etc.
dave
Neil_Gendzwill
>Could somebody please list (for us beginners) the names of the the
>various xxxdan ranks and what they correspond to? I did not see this in
>the FAQ. Thanks.
> 1st = shodan
> 2nd ( ni ) = nidan
> 3rd ( san ) = sandan
> 4th ( shi ) = yondan ( it's a pecularity of japanese language )
> 5th ( go ) = godan
> 6th ( rok ) = rokudan
The counting numbers are : ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, shichi, hachi, ku, ju.
The ranks are: shodan (1), nidan (2), sandan (3), yondan (4), godan (5),
rokudan (6), nanadan (7), hachidan (8), kudan (9), judan (10).
The kyu ranks are the same only backward: kukyu, jukyu, etc, except that
first kyu is ikkyu (as it's obviously not the beginning kyu). Also, different
arts have different numbers of kyu. Usually there are at least 5.
The reasons for the differences are: sho means beginning, rather than
first. So shodan means beginning rank. The number 4 pronounced as shi
sounds the same as a word for death and has connotations of bad luck for
the Japanese, so in a title kind of designation they use a more polite
form of the word. I'm not sure about why nanadan isn't shichidan,
although I have heard it pronounced that way.
In kendo and iaido we also have teaching ranks, and they are renshi,
kyoshi and hanshi. You get renshi after godan or rokudan, kyoshi at
nanadan and hanshi at hachidan, usually as a recognition for time in or
contributions. So you can have a plain vanilla hachidan or the more
impressively titled hanshi hachidan.
Shihan is a sort of generic term for a great teacher. In some arts it
connotates a specific achievement ie it is an awarded title.
Then David Williams chimed in:
>One thing to remember is that after about 4th dan in most arts its
>pretty much honorifics anyway.
>In many cases a high-level grading is not really a formal test
>but rather a simple demonstration of skill. In such a case
>the testee him/herself decides on what moves to demonstrate, such
>as a favorite kata and some basics. A high-level instructor really
>only needs to see a few minutes of a tester's MA to see if they
>know their stuff or not. My Aikido instructor received 4th dan
>from the IMAF (International MA Federation) in such a manner --
8th dan. I know two people who travelled to Japan to take their
nanadan exam. One passed, one failed. It is *not* a formality.
At the same time as they were there, hachidan testing was held.
Of hundreds of candidates, 2 passed.
The test is rather short. It doesn't change after sandan, and
lasts about 20 minutes. What the grading committee is looking
for at each rank changes, however.
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
> >>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
> >
> >Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
> >sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
> >real life.
>
> But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
> real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
> problem defending himself....
>
> --
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Sam Hulick \ | I don't speak for IU, \ "Uhhh, I don't know."
> shu...@indiana.edu \ | nor UCS. \ --Andy Warhol
> "All kids love Log." \| UCS JumpStart Assistant \
Please don't forget that in the USA, especially in states like
Califonia, it is real easy to sue people! Celebrities often have
bodyguards so that if the celebrity is attacked, the celebrity doesn't
have to retaliate him/herself and open him/herself up to a law-suit!
The attack on the celebrity becomes "just another fight between some
guy and a body guard"... not "incredibly large fight between some guy's
lawer and a celebrity"!!
Julian
--
___________) UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd ucsd nosc}!crash!odaiko!jfrost
( | ARPA: crash!odaiko!jfr...@nosc.mil
___|____ INET: jfr...@odaiko.cts.com
/ | PACKET: KC6NSE @ KC6NZN.#SOCA.CA.USA.NOAM
(____/ . Public Key for Encrypted Mail available on request.
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> In article <1993Apr23.1...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ch...@magnus.ac
> >In article <1993Apr23.0...@physics.unr.edu> spe...@equinox.unr.edu
> >>I have heard that Seagal was a Nidan, until he married his Sensei's daughte
> >>then miraculously went to a Rokudan (6th). But in Aikido, the last physica
> >>exam you take is for Nidan.
> >
> >Not necessarily. I've witnessed one test for sandan and another for
> >yondan (!). I know of at least one other person (aside from the test
> >I saw) who was tested for sandan as well.
> >
> >>However, Segal's promotion does seem a bit...strange.
> >
> >Can't comment on that. If his rank is indeed recognized by Hombu, I'd
> >be inclined to regard it as legitimate.
>
> Could somebody please list (for us beginners) the names of the the
> various xxxdan ranks and what they correspond to? I did not see this in
> the FAQ. Thanks.
>
I'm not sure what you're asking for here.
Shodan = First Dan
Nidan = Second Dan
Sandan = Third Dan
Yondan = Fourth Dan
Godan = Fifth Dan
Rokudan = Sixth Dan
Nanadan = Seventh Dan
Hachidan = Eight Dan
In Aikido, all ranks CAN be tested for. I have seen countless Nidan,
Sandan, and Yondan tests. I was even one of the Uke's for one of my
teacher's Yondan tests back in England. Similarly, all ranks CAN be
from reccomendations (these cost a lot more to register!!). This
doesn't necessarily mean that they are honorary ranks though. There
are times in a student's studies when the sensei says "It is time for
you to test for xxxdan". There are other times when the sensei
recognises that the student has broken through some barrier or made
outstanding progress and that this should be recognized, hence the
sensei promotes the student. Then there's the time when the sensei
sees that a student (or even a non-student) has done a lot for the art,
or for a particular dojo, and promotes that student to an honorary rank.
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
Not honorifics, but reccomendations. The two are different. You can
be TESTED and promoted to 5th dan, you can be RECCOMMENDED for 5th dan
or you can be given an HONORARY 5th dan. The three are distinct.
Sergej Roytman
hard to believe, but was quite interesting enough to make me want to
learn the truth of the matter. This may sound like a wide-eyed, naive
beginner's question, but hey, who ever said I was anything but?
The story is about a Japanese officer during the Second World War. It
seems that the soldiers under his command were pinned down by an
American pillbox and the situation was pretty hopeless. The only way
to get out of this position was to somehow destroy the machine-gun
which the Americans were quite happy to use on anyone who stuck his
head up. The story goes that this officer did stick his head up.
Indeed, he ran the distance to the pillbox and cut the barrel of the
machine-gun with his sword, rendering the machine-gun useless. The
rest, I assume, didn't go too well for my countrymen.
So, does anyone know anything about this? Is this a martial-artsy
type of urban legend, or is there some truth to it? Stories of
Filipino knife-fighters going up against .38s lend this a sort of
believability, but I imagine that if you've got something on a tripod
you'd use heavier ammunition.
OK, so I'm gullible. Still, if this is true it is one hell of a story,
and its spirit at least, even if it isn't true, might be more fun to
discuss here than say, Would Woody Woodpecker with Two Months' Wing Chun
Training Beat Steven Seagal?
-- Sergej Roytman
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
of thing, but this discussion of testing for higher dan grades has got
me thinking.
I would think that whether you have to test or not depends upon how
well the shihan knows you. If you have worked with the shihan a lot,
then a test isn't going to tell him/her anything he/she didn't already
know. You'll get the promotion when the shihan thinks you are ready,
and that is that. If the shihan doesn't know you very well, then
testing is the only way she or he can learn enough about you to judge.
The shihan has probably known the higher ranked students for years,
so testing tends to either disappear, or become a formality.
Is this a reasonable interpretation?
Jim Walters
Neil_Gendzwill
>There is a story I heard (on this newsgroup, I think) that was pretty
>hard to believe, but was quite interesting enough to make me want to
>learn the truth of the matter. This may sound like a wide-eyed, naive
>beginner's question, but hey, who ever said I was anything but?
>
>The story is about a Japanese officer during the Second World War. It
>seems that the soldiers under his command were pinned down by an
>American pillbox and the situation was pretty hopeless. The only way
>to get out of this position was to somehow destroy the machine-gun
>which the Americans were quite happy to use on anyone who stuck his
>head up. The story goes that this officer did stick his head up.
>Indeed, he ran the distance to the pillbox and cut the barrel of the
>machine-gun with his sword, rendering the machine-gun useless. The
>rest, I assume, didn't go too well for my countrymen.
There was a Canadian from Saskatoon named Hugh Cairns who was a
Sergeant in WWI. He would sneak up on German pillboxes and toss
hand grenades down them. He was in the midst of sabotaging his
third pillbox when the Germans managed to shoot him. He went
down, got up and kept coming. He was shot a second time and
I believe a third before he tossed the grenade in as his final
action. Victoria Cross, posthumous, and a true story. We
have a street, a school and an armoury named after him.
I'm not so sure about wacking off a gun barrel with a katana...
Neil_Gendzwill
Depends on whether you think dojo-dan is a good idea or not. Perhaps
it's just my background, but I find dan rankings awarded by one's own
sensei more than a tad suspect. The judging is likely to be biased.
This may be something innocent but hard to work around, like the
sensei viewing his own students through rose coloured glasses. On
the other hand, a sensei improves his standing by producing more
good students, so an unscrupulous one...
I prefer the kendo method of grading by committee. This is a bit
of a pain for those of us who have to travel to get to a committee,
but at least the rank is impartially given.
Charles Yeomans
During all of the dicussion of just how ruff n tuff Muay Thai is, compared
to TKD, it surprises me that none of the TKD people noted that there
certainly is a fighting art called TKD from which the sport of TKD
descended. From Dakin Burdick's history post, I recall that TKD was
created during the early years of the ROK, when war was certainly
uppermost in the minds of Koreans. Furthermore, it seems that all
of the top Korean instructors were involved either as combatants or
as instructors of soldiers who would be putting their skills to
an immediate test.
I imagine that the TKD instructors who got their start in the 50s, or
the people who teach ROK troops now - and let us not forget that there
has been nearly constant combat along the DMZ since the truce - have
a very different conception of TKD than the people who view it as sport.
Perhaps Curt Williams, among others, could dicuss this more knowledgeably
than I. But I'd bet the ROK army TKD champion could stay in the ring
with a Muay Thai fighter, under any rules.
Charles Yeomans
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> Jim Walters wrote:
>
> >It's going to be a _long_ time before I have to worry about this sort
> >of thing, but this discussion of testing for higher dan grades has got
> >me thinking.
> >
> >I would think that whether you have to test or not depends upon how
> >well the shihan knows you. If you have worked with the shihan a lot,
> >then a test isn't going to tell him/her anything he/she didn't already
> >know. You'll get the promotion when the shihan thinks you are ready,
> >and that is that. If the shihan doesn't know you very well, then
> >testing is the only way she or he can learn enough about you to judge.
> >The shihan has probably known the higher ranked students for years,
> >so testing tends to either disappear, or become a formality.
> >
> >Is this a reasonable interpretation?
>
> Depends on whether you think dojo-dan is a good idea or not. Perhaps
> it's just my background, but I find dan rankings awarded by one's own
> sensei more than a tad suspect. The judging is likely to be biased.
> This may be something innocent but hard to work around, like the
> sensei viewing his own students through rose coloured glasses. On
> the other hand, a sensei improves his standing by producing more
> good students, so an unscrupulous one...
>
> I prefer the kendo method of grading by committee. This is a bit
> of a pain for those of us who have to travel to get to a committee,
> but at least the rank is impartially given.
I used to think the same, but then I started studying under a shihan
and my views changed! Since it would normally be the shihan who people
travel to anyway, there's no problem being ranked by him if he is the
sensei of your dojo!
As for committees, sometimes a committee of four yondans rank someone
to godan. Is this acceptable? I don't think so! This is what
happened in the United Kingdom when several Aikido groups broke away
from the main federation (the BAF). Consequently, some of these groups
were headed by 5th and 6th dans, though they were in fact ranked by
their own peers. Does the combined knowledge of four yondans make a
godan?
Another problem with committees is that which I experienced in the UK.
The visiting Shihan was to precide over the test. He out-ranked the
head of the organization. The person who was taking the Nidan test did
a very bad, physically rough (injuring 2 ukes) test. The committee
reccommended that he fail, as did the shihan. However, the head of the
organization, who had the most "clout" simply because he IS the head of
the federation, overruled the committee's decision and passed him! The
examinee was also his top student!
Not all committees are like this though, thankfully!
Neil_Gendzwill
>Neil Gendzwill writes:
>
>> Jim Walters wrote:
>>
>> ><Discussion of dan awarded directly by shihan deleted>
>>
>> <Rebuttal criticizing dojo-dan deleted>
>>
>> I prefer the kendo method of grading by committee. This is a bit
>> of a pain for those of us who have to travel to get to a committee,
>> but at least the rank is impartially given.
>
>
>I used to think the same, but then I started studying under a shihan
>and my views changed! Since it would normally be the shihan who people
>travel to anyway, there's no problem being ranked by him if he is the
>sensei of your dojo!
This is just the point I was trying to make. A committee should be
made up of people from other dojos. I've been graded twice by
committee now, and in neither case was my sensei on the committee.
In fact, I'd never met any of the committee members.
>
>As for committees, sometimes a committee of four yondans rank someone
>to godan. <snip> Does the combined knowledge of four yondans make a
>godan?
Of course not. But the Canadian Kendo Federation demands a committee of
at least 6, each of which have to be godan or higher, merely to award
shodan. The requirements get stricter as you go up. My sensei was
graded for yondan in Japan by a committee of 14.
><Horror story of committee shanghaied by politics deleted>
>
>Not all committees are like this though, thankfully!
Certainly not any kendo committee I've heard of.
As a complete aside, I've just been thumbing through the latest catalog
from "The Budo", a budo equipment company in Hokkaido. Anyone care to
spot me $3000 for a new pair of kote (1 mm hand-stitched, only the
best will do)? How about $1000 for a new kendogi (again, hand woven,
stitched and dyed - gotta look sharp!)?
wba...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>>>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
>>
>>Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
>>sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
>>real life.
>
>But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
>real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
>problem defending himself....
>
Everything I've ever read on the subject, including Aikido/Aikijutsu articles
in some Law Enforcement magazines [no, not SOF.] say that while Seagal is
schooled in traditional Aikido, his coreography reflects a combat-oriented
version that is also taught. I don't have any personal knowledge of this other
than what I have read. But... there you go.
Bill
Robert Gillespie
>>Well, some people believe he doesn't deserve his rank. I've heard he's
>
>>really like 2nd dan, and the rest of his ranks are just honorary.
>
>Nope...other than his hokey stories about CIA stuff when it comes to
>aikido Seagal is the real deal--this is secondhand from a relative who
>has seen him work out in New York with Yamada sensei.
>
>One thing to remember is that after about 4th dan in most arts its
>pretty much honorifics anyway.
>
>David Williams
I always thought that those 6th degree black belts in Tai Chi were poseurs...
Wolfram Roesler
Steven Weigand (wei...@opus.ee.udel.edu) wrote:
>Lemme ask you a question: Are you willing to take a knife in your belly
>after getting slashed 5 others places in order to control someone who's
>flipped out?
Or, are you prepared to give your life to save some corrupt politician?
--
Wolfram Roesler Augustastr. 44-46 W-5100 Aachen
(E-Mail) w...@bara.oche.de (Maus) AC2 (Voice) +49(0)241 534596
Andy Woodward
>Steve was trying to say. As a bodygaurd, you are purposely putting yourself
>in a position of immenant danger, many times laying your life on the line.
>After all, you are getting paid for protecting someone elses life first, not
>your own.
>
>
Let them protect their own lives. Unless you know someone WAAY on the
inside you will not be paid enough to merit the risk.
>>Bodyguards also have to be large and intimidating. If you are not,
>>pack it up. Because large people are more intimidating than smaller
>>people, they tend to be able to control people more psychologically
>>than smaller folks.
>
>Hardly Steve. This is a very big stereotype. While I will agree that in
>crowd situations, (such as security at a rock concert) bigger muscle bound
>people are needed (to hold back possible crowd surges, etc), personal body
>gaurds most adduredly do NOT have to be big. For example, here at Alpine
>Valley (concert place in southeastern Wisconsin), the body guards employed
>personally for the performers are small to average size, and all have some
>form of martial arts training, be it TKD or whatnot.
>
The main purpose of a bodyguard is to solve problems without violence. This
is only possible if you are big. If you are small, no matter how good you
may be, you will regularly have to prove it, negating the whole
purpose of a bodyguard. If you are in a job where size is not
important, then this is a job you should get out of very quickly.
It will have serious risks.
Hal Render
:
: I imagine that the TKD instructors who got their start in the 50s, or
: the people who teach ROK troops now - and let us not forget that there
: has been nearly constant combat along the DMZ since the truce - have
: a very different conception of TKD than the people who view it as sport.
: Perhaps Curt Williams, among others, could dicuss this more knowledgeably
: than I. But I'd bet the ROK army TKD champion could stay in the ring
: with a Muay Thai fighter, under any rules.
Comparing styles isn't very useful. What matters in any situation is the
skill of the person. I recall my old instructor (S.C. Lee, 4th Dan, ex-ROK
army and Korean National Demo Team) having great respect for Thai (and other)
MA. I don't think he would make the blanket statement you just have.
--
hal render
univ. of colorado at colorado-springs
ren...@massive.uccs.edu
bcar...@denver.cba.du.edu
writes:
>
> During all of the dicussion of just how ruff n tuff Muay Thai is,
compared
> to TKD, it surprises me that none of the TKD people noted that there
> certainly is a fighting art called TKD from which the sport of TKD
> descended.
You are right, but to argue that would end up as wasted breath. Besides,
the more people that believe that all TKD artists are flashy sport fighters
who play tag, the better. I know a few Hapkido practitioners who love
their art, and many also have a respect for TKD. However, some of them have
asked me, why practice a showy, non-effective martial art, when I could
practice "real" self defense in Hapkido. This is nothing against Hapkido,
I have watched a number of their classes and it looks very effective, it's
just those few (or not so) who have the idea that TKD is a sport, may
unfortunately run into a TKDer who has never worn pads and gets real
offended when someone calls the art "showy"
> Charles Yeomans
--
Bill Carlson
bcar...@denver.cba.du.edu
" I Can Fly " Johnathan Livingston Seagull
Charles Yeomans
TKD is no good, muay thai is good.
You are quite right, it is the skill of the person that matters.
Charles Yeomans
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> In rec.martial-arts article <C5vGz...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> you wrote:
> > jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
> > >>Steven Seagal needs a bodyguard??
> > >
> > >Don't know if he has one or not, but it would seem like an eminently
> > >sensible acknowledgement of the difference between the movies and
> > >real life.
> >
> > But he's a black belt in aikido (I know, it's controversial whether it's
> > real aikido or his own style or what). I'd assume he would have no
> > problem defending himself....
>
>
> Why is there controversy about Seagal's aikido credentials? He's
> not just a yudansha, he's a Shihan for christs sake. You don't get that if
> there's any question about your commitment to the art.
>
> Jim
> Uzg...@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
No, no, no! He is NOT Shihan!! He has, in the past, made claims to
being Shihan, but the title Shihan is awarded by Doshu only and he was
not awarded this title.
Unfortunately, some people believe that when you reach 6th dan you
automatically become shihan, but this is not so.
To summarize: Mr. Seagal is a Hombu Recognized 6th Dan. He is not,
however, Shihan.
Tom Osborn
>Hi fellow masochists, :)
Speak for eweself, buddy boy!
>I was wondering a few things today. On the average, how much do
>bodyguards get paid? And secondly, how experienced or knowledgeable
>should they be? (Remember, experience is not knowledge...) I'm only an
>orange belt, but I'm really really desperate for money and was wondering
>about this. Please, no flames saying I don't know enough. :) I'm just
>speculating... >Thanks!
Will somebody please put me straight on this?
Sam Hulick is a net.forgery, right?
M.Neu-Muller
Steven Seagal was interviewed on the Steve Wright radio show in England
The transcript of the interview was alos published in "Combat" magazine.
He stated that his body guards were not so much as to protect him from physical
abuse but to stop people being able to say that he is the father of their child.
ie. They are like walking chart recorders of where he was and when
Erik Maynard Gross
A brief survey of the situation hints that all shihan appointed by Doshu seem
to be... Japanese.
I could be mistaken, but this is the impression I have recieved. I know a
number of 6+ dan instructers, but only the japanese ones are shihan.
hmmmm.
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
The requirements for the Shihan title include (but are not limited to)
having trained for a considerable time at Hombu Dojo, Tokyo, and (I
believe, but am not certain of this) *teaching* at Hombu.
Spending a few months at Hombu does not count!
Don Schiewer
> having trained for a considerable time at Hombu Dojo, Tokyo, and (I
> believe, but am not certain of this) *teaching* at Hombu.
>
I studied Shori Goju with man called Shihan Sexton. His son was
very successful in National AAU competions. He was not Japenese
and I am not sure he studied in Japan?
--
Don Schiewer | Internet schi...@pa881a.inland.com | Onward Great
Inland Steel | UUCP: !uucp!pa881a.inland!schiewer | Stream...
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
What is Shori Goju? We are talking about Aikido. There are many
people who have their own federations/styles of Aikido and have given
themselves the title of Shihan in recognition of their own Leadership
Qualities (tm). However, these titles are not recognized by the
Aikikai Hombu Dojo so are, effectively, worthless.
I knew one man in England who studied Aikido and called himself Shihan
because he was 6th dan in his own federation. In the federation that
he was affiliated to, he was only 3rd dan (and not Shihan)!!!
Jay Rifkin
>What is Shori Goju? We are talking about Aikido. There are many
>people who have their own federations/styles of Aikido and have given
>themselves the title of Shihan in recognition of their own Leadership
>Qualities (tm). However, these titles are not recognized by the
>Aikikai Hombu Dojo so are, effectively, worthless.
I apologize if this is in a FAQ somewhere, but I am wondering what the
Hombu Dojo is and why it is so important.
Also, why would a title in a branch besides aikikai be effectively
worthless?
- jay
Jay Rifkin (jiri...@phoenix.princeton.edu)
Princeton University
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
Ok, Hombu Dojo means "Headquarters School". It is the school that was
started by the Founder of Aikido. If a school practices "Hombu" style
(or, more generally "Traditional Aikido") as opposed to, say, Ki
Society, or Tomiki Aikido, then the school will attempt to have it's
ranks and titles ratified by Hombu. If the head of a particular
dojo/club or associated federation gives him/herself the title shihan,
it will not be recognized and is therefore worthless (just the same as
someone giving himself the rank of 28th dan!).
Now, if Tohei Sensei, for example, wished to give someone in the Ki
Society the title of Shihan, then that's up to him and it's recognized
within the Ki Society. However, this title would not be recognized by
Hombu Dojo, the headquarters of Traditional Aikido.
Joseph Toman
>Ok, Hombu Dojo means "Headquarters School". It is the school that was
>started by the Founder of Aikido. If a school practices "Hombu" style
>(or, more generally "Traditional Aikido") as opposed to, say, Ki
>Society, or Tomiki Aikido, then the school will attempt to have it's
>ranks and titles ratified by Hombu. If the head of a particular
>dojo/club or associated federation gives him/herself the title shihan,
>it will not be recognized and is therefore worthless (just the same as
>someone giving himself the rank of 28th dan!).
>
>Now, if Tohei Sensei, for example, wished to give someone in the Ki
>Society the title of Shihan, then that's up to him and it's recognized
>within the Ki Society. However, this title would not be recognized by
>Hombu Dojo, the headquarters of Traditional Aikido.
Julian, you've made a huge leap from 'not recognized by'
to 'worthless'. If I came upon someone in my training that Tohei Sensei,
or any other splitter of equal stature, declared to be a shihan, I'd
damn well listen to what they have to say. And people wonder why
there's disaffection from Hombu .
J. Toman
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> In article <B1wX3B...@odaiko.cts.com> jfr...@odaiko.cts.com (SYSTEM 0PERAT
Now Joseph... where in any of the above did I say that a Shihan
(awarded by Tohei -- if there is such a thing) would be worthless??
Personally, I would think that a Shihan from the Ki Society would have
to be pretty darned good in what they do (Tohei is a 10th Dan, awarded,
of course, by O Sensei)!
If you read it again, properly, I say that if the head of a federation
***AWARDS HIMSELF THE TITLE/RANK*** (28th dan was the example). The
example also said that if the federation was affiliated to **Hombu
Dojo** and the head awarded himself the rank/title, it would be worthless.
Note that the subject changes with the beginning of a new paragraph. The
first paragraph deals with self-appointed/promoted shihan/dan-ranks and
says that they're worthless. The second paragraph deals with Tohei (and
says how if he promoted someone to shihan it would be up to him, but still
not recognized by Hombu).
Please, don't put words into my mouth!!
Julian
ps. One more thing, remember that Ki Society Aikido is not Hombu Style
and there is little, if any, interaction between Tohei and Hombu anymore.
Joseph Toman
But then how are Soke or Doshu of styles created ? Somebody has to be
arrogant enough to say 'I'm the master of Joe Bob Do' and break with
their previous affiliations . The perks are that you get to study
exactly what you want. The downside is that your former affiliation
calls your self-promotion 'worthless', at least until you're so
successful that they can't get away with it.
>
>Note that the subject changes with the beginning of a new paragraph. The
>first paragraph deals with self-appointed/promoted shihan/dan-ranks and
>says that they're worthless. The second paragraph deals with Tohei (and
>says how if he promoted someone to shihan it would be up to him, but still
>not recognized by Hombu).
And I think that this is a mistake on Hombu's part. If the title has
any meaning beyond "this person has paid their dues", I would guess that
Tohei (or someone similar) could spot a shihan from a mile away,
regardless of stylistic differences. We (aikidoists) all are still
practicing the same art, aren't we ?
>
>Please, don't put words into my mouth!!
>Julian
>
If I have misconstrued your meaning, I apologize. However, on re-reading
your article, I can just as easily come to the meaning you propose, as
I can to my original interpretation.
J. Toman
John Murray
>And I think that this is a mistake on Hombu's part. If the title has
>any meaning beyond "this person has paid their dues", I would guess that
>Tohei (or someone similar) could spot a shihan from a mile away,
>regardless of stylistic differences. We (aikidoists) all are still
>practicing the same art, aren't we ?
Why a mistake? Tohei removed himself from the organization. Why does Hombu
need to pay any attention to what Tohei does?
I would certainly not refuse if Tohei tried to make me shihan (or even shodan,
fer chrissake! :-) I personally would have a great deal of respect for anyone
named shihan by Tohei. But why should Hombu have to recognize people from
organizations that choose not to associate with them??
Yes we are (arguably, I will grant) practicing the same art. But that doesn't
have that much to do with organizational BS. I suppose if (remember, everyone,
this is all one big 'if') after being formally petitioned, Hombu refused to
recognize a shihan named as such by Tohei, it could be seen as divisive in
the aikido world, but so what? Can you blame them? Who broke off from who
back in the 70's???
As for the other (separate!!!) point in the first post, if you walked up to
me and said "Hi, I'm a shihan in Aiki-Joe-Bob-Do, give me your money and I'll
teach you all I know" (followed up by a brief exhibition of tap-dance-waza)
I might indeed be inclined to consider your title worthless, unless your tap-
dance-waza was *really* good :-)
Anyway, I practice Aikido, not politics.
--
Disclaimer: Opinions mine. Brainless, knee-jerk reactions are your problem.
John R. Murray mur...@vs6.scri.fsu.edu | Hello, I am a damaged .signature
Supercomputer Computations Research Inst| virus. Copy me into yours, and
Moderator comp.graphics.research | join in the !rm -rf un *;A#$!&zQ *^P%o
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> >
> >If you read it again, properly, I say that if the head of a federation
> >***AWARDS HIMSELF THE TITLE/RANK*** (28th dan was the example). The
> >example also said that if the federation was affiliated to **Hombu
> >Dojo** and the head awarded himself the rank/title, it would be worthless.
>
> But then how are Soke or Doshu of styles created ? Somebody has to be
> arrogant enough to say 'I'm the master of Joe Bob Do' and break with
> their previous affiliations . The perks are that you get to study
> exactly what you want. The downside is that your former affiliation
> calls your self-promotion 'worthless', at least until you're so
> successful that they can't get away with it.
Yep! No argument here!
>
> >
> >Note that the subject changes with the beginning of a new paragraph. The
> >first paragraph deals with self-appointed/promoted shihan/dan-ranks and
> >says that they're worthless. The second paragraph deals with Tohei (and
> >says how if he promoted someone to shihan it would be up to him, but still
> >not recognized by Hombu).
>
> And I think that this is a mistake on Hombu's part. If the title has
> any meaning beyond "this person has paid their dues", I would guess that
> Tohei (or someone similar) could spot a shihan from a mile away,
> regardless of stylistic differences. We (aikidoists) all are still
> practicing the same art, aren't we ?
>
As for "all still practising the same art, aren't we?" -- some are,
some aren't. Some Aikido bears little or no resemblence to what O
Sensei taught, some a lot, depends on what the particular teacher
decides to do with it. I knew a guy back in England who was a 4th dan
in "Traditional Aikido" who was ranked by "O Sensei, Hans Von Rollbeck,
10th Dan". Now, who was this "Hans Von Rollbeck"? Who awarded him
10th Dan, and since when was he "O Sensei"? This English 4th dan's
"aikido" had *nothing* in common with any style of Aikido that I have
seen, except for the name of the style and the names of the techniques.
Julian
Bill Knittle
care to go to lunch with me and explain how to correctly respond to
messages on this system?). Anyway, as the first caucasian in mainland U.
S. to study Aikido, let me point out that what is taught at Ki Society 0PERATOR) writes:
today IS what used to be taught at Hombu Dojo. I studied under both
Koichi Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba (O-Sensei's son and the heir to the
art). While O-Sensei formulated the principles of the art, most of the EM 0PERAT
actual training methods were developed by his number one student, Tohei. was
Thus, "traditional Aikido" WAS what is taught via the Ki Society (unlessyle
they have changed drastically in the last couple of years)...and Ueshiba
taught us ki techniques just as Tohei did...only difference was that he s
(Ueshiba) was more stiff on the mat and his techniques were a tad more
linear...but the same techniques, nonetheless. He was also a very dour an,
fellow compared with Tohei's constant smiling and little guttural laugh. as
I was so sorry to see the split come, but we all knew it was coming be-
cause of the obvious tension between the leading student and the "inheri
tor of the art. But I assure you, they both taught the same things...
though now Hombu people won't mention ki at all....they sure used to! zed
(How can I get an off-line reader to deal with these messages?) by
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> Sorry, I still can't figure this crazy editor out...(anyone here at UCLA
> care to go to lunch with me and explain how to correctly respond to
> messages on this system?). Anyway, as the first caucasian in mainland U.
> S. to study Aikido, let me point out that what is taught at Ki Society 0PERA
> today IS what used to be taught at Hombu Dojo. I studied under both
> Koichi Tohei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba (O-Sensei's son and the heir to the
> art). While O-Sensei formulated the principles of the art, most of the EM 0P
> actual training methods were developed by his number one student, Tohei. was
> Thus, "traditional Aikido" WAS what is taught via the Ki Society (unlessyle
> they have changed drastically in the last couple of years)...and Ueshiba
> taught us ki techniques just as Tohei did...only difference was that he s
> (Ueshiba) was more stiff on the mat and his techniques were a tad more
> linear...but the same techniques, nonetheless. He was also a very dour an,
> fellow compared with Tohei's constant smiling and little guttural laugh. as
> I was so sorry to see the split come, but we all knew it was coming be-
> cause of the obvious tension between the leading student and the "inheri
> tor of the art. But I assure you, they both taught the same things...
> though now Hombu people won't mention ki at all....they sure used to! zed
> (How can I get an off-line reader to deal with these messages?) by
Nice to meet you Bill!
One thing... the subject was NEVER Ki Society VS Hombu!! I think what
you have written is correct, but Tohei did split from Hombu and "do his
own thing", whereas activities at Hombu remained pretty much the same.
I think that maybe the Ki Society people do things (Aikido techniques
that is) just the same/similar to everybody else, just that their
emphasis is on Ki development with Aikido as a neat way of seeing it's
effects, as opposed to styles like Hombu which deal with training in
Aikido with development in Ki being and effect of the training! This
is, of course, a massive over simplification!
Joseph Toman
>In article <1s9jnv$s...@pith.uoregon.edu> to...@bovine.uoregon.edu (Joseph Toman) writes:
>>And I think that this is a mistake on Hombu's part. If the title has
>>any meaning beyond "this person has paid their dues", I would guess that
>>Tohei (or someone similar) could spot a shihan from a mile away,
>>regardless of stylistic differences. We (aikidoists) all are still
>>practicing the same art, aren't we ?
>
>Why a mistake? Tohei removed himself from the organization. Why does Hombu
>need to pay any attention to what Tohei does?
>
>I would certainly not refuse if Tohei tried to make me shihan (or even shodan,
>fer chrissake! :-) I personally would have a great deal of respect for anyone
>named shihan by Tohei. But why should Hombu have to recognize people from
>organizations that choose not to associate with them??
They, of course, don't have to. But it seems the civil thing to do.
>
>Yes we are (arguably, I will grant) practicing the same art. But that doesn't
>have that much to do with organizational BS. I suppose if (remember, everyone,
>this is all one big 'if') after being formally petitioned, Hombu refused to
>recognize a shihan named as such by Tohei, it could be seen as divisive in
>the aikido world, but so what? Can you blame them? Who broke off from who
>back in the 70's???
Mommy, he hit me first ??? It seems to me that the whole point of this
art is to get beyond such childish bickering. We aikidoists have all
these flowery quotations from O-Sensei about "reconciling the world" and
"Budo is love" and so on, and we can't even be pleasant and civil among
ourselves ? This is why some other martial artists giggle at us, they
have infighting too, but they don't make the big noise we do about
peace and harmony.
>
>As for the other (separate!!!) point in the first post, if you walked up to
>me and said "Hi, I'm a shihan in Aiki-Joe-Bob-Do, give me your money and I'll
>teach you all I know" (followed up by a brief exhibition of tap-dance-waza)
>I might indeed be inclined to consider your title worthless, unless your tap-
>dance-waza was *really* good :-)
Why *really* good ? If a shihan-with-pedigree said the same thing, and their
waza was mediocre, would you feel the same way ?
>
>Anyway, I practice Aikido, not politics.
So do I, and I'm beginning to think you can't do one without
doing the other.
J. Toman
Joseph Toman
In article <Ra653B...@odaiko.cts.com> jfr...@odaiko.cts.com (SYSTEM 0PERATOR) writes:
>
>As for "all still practising the same art, aren't we?" -- some are,
>some aren't. Some Aikido bears little or no resemblence to what O
>Sensei taught, some a lot, depends on what the particular teacher
>decides to do with it. I knew a guy back in England who was a 4th dan
>in "Traditional Aikido" who was ranked by "O Sensei, Hans Von Rollbeck,
>10th Dan". Now, who was this "Hans Von Rollbeck"? Who awarded him
>10th Dan, and since when was he "O Sensei"?
Oh, Hans. He's one of the great unsung heros of aikido. We all know
the story of O-Sensei's little Mongolian adventure. What is not so well
known, is that after their party was turned over to the Japanese consul,
on their last evening before being shipped home, Onisaburo was allowed to
go out. Naturally, O-Sensei, his bodyguard, went with him. They walked
around and talked about their failed expedition, and ended up in a bar
down by the port. After a short while, O-Sensei noticed that a small caucasian
man sitting at the bar was staring fixedly at them. He waited for several
minutes, but the man continued to stare at them and drink. After half an
hour had gone by, O-Sensei could take no more. He rushed over to the man
and shouted "You! What do you want?" . The man, obviously drunk, poked
himself in the chest with his thumb, and said in slurred japanese,
" I... I von Rollbeck". He then lost his balance, fell backwards
off his bar stool, did an unintentional somersault and was out cold
on the barroom floor. Thus modern ukemi was born . So the next time
you take a fall for someone ,just remember the name, and Rollbeck .
By the way, I sell noseplugs at reasonable rates.
J. Toman
SYSTEM 0PERATOR
> I'm not one to shirk an onerous duty :
>
> In article <Ra653B...@odaiko.cts.com> jfr...@odaiko.cts.com (SYSTEM 0PERA
> >
> >As for "all still practising the same art, aren't we?" -- some are,
> >some aren't. Some Aikido bears little or no resemblence to what O
> >Sensei taught, some a lot, depends on what the particular teacher
> >decides to do with it. I knew a guy back in England who was a 4th dan
> >in "Traditional Aikido" who was ranked by "O Sensei, Hans Von Rollbeck,
> >10th Dan". Now, who was this "Hans Von Rollbeck"? Who awarded him
> >10th Dan, and since when was he "O Sensei"?
>
> Oh, Hans. He's one of the great unsung heros of aikido. We all know
> the story of O-Sensei's little Mongolian adventure. What is not so well
> known, is that after their party was turned over to the Japanese consul,
> on their last evening before being shipped home, Onisaburo was allowed to
> go out. Naturally, O-Sensei, his bodyguard, went with him. They walked
> around and talked about their failed expedition, and ended up in a bar
> down by the port. After a short while, O-Sensei noticed that a small caucasia
> man sitting at the bar was staring fixedly at them. He waited for several
> minutes, but the man continued to stare at them and drink. After half an
> hour had gone by, O-Sensei could take no more. He rushed over to the man
> and shouted "You! What do you want?" . The man, obviously drunk, poked
> himself in the chest with his thumb, and said in slurred japanese,
> " I... I von Rollbeck". He then lost his balance, fell backwards
> off his bar stool, did an unintentional somersault and was out cold
> on the barroom floor. Thus modern ukemi was born . So the next time
> you take a fall for someone ,just remember the name, and Rollbeck .
>
>
> By the way, I sell noseplugs at reasonable rates.
>
> J. Toman
>
At last! The TRUE interpretation of the legends has arisen from the
depths! I thank you from my bottom.
John Murray
>>But why should Hombu have to recognize people from
>>organizations that choose not to associate with them??
>
>They, of course, don't have to. But it seems the civil thing to do.
>>Who broke off from who back in the 70's???
>Mommy, he hit me first ??? It seems to me that the whole point of this
>art is to get beyond such childish bickering.
*sigh* Enough of this. As far as I know (which is, I will grant, not very far),
there is no childish bickering currently going on between Hombu and Ki Society.
We two are the only parties guilty of childish bickering that I know of :-)
Besides, I have no desire to try to decide for them what Hombu should do and
what Tohei should do. I am content to leave that to the Doshu and the
("legitimate" :-) ;-) Aikidoka nine and ten ranks above me. If you want to tell
them what to do, well, you can write them a letter :-)
>>As for the other (separate!!!) point in the first post, if you walked up to
>>me and said "Hi, I'm a shihan in Aiki-Joe-Bob-Do, give me your money and I'll
>>teach you all I know" (followed up by a brief exhibition of tap-dance-waza)
>>I might indeed be inclined to consider your title worthless, unless your tap-
>>dance-waza was *really* good :-)
>
>Why *really* good ? If a shihan-with-pedigree said the same thing, and their
>waza was mediocre, would you feel the same way ?
If I think or know someone is a self-appointed shihan or Nth-dan or whatever,
I will be *more inclined* to scrutinize their technique very carefully, and
judge them based on my scrutiny and ignore their claim to the title or rank.
If I see a "legitimate" (awarded by an organization (implies some very highly
ranked people, if not O Sensei himself, thought they deserved the title/rank))
shihan/Nth dan whose technique I think is maybe not so good, I will be *more
inclined* to think perhaps I'm missing something when I observe their
technique, since I haven't been in the art for 40-50-more years like the
various leaders in Aikido.
>>Anyway, I practice Aikido, not politics.
>
>So do I, and I'm beginning to think you can't do one without
>doing the other.
I am afraid that on this point, I cannot agree with you. Maybe you can't
escape politics altogether, but that is just human nature and the nature
of organizations. If the politics becomes more important than improving
your Aikido, however, then yes, you and I *ARE* practicing different arts :-)