Why did Asia produce such sophisticated martial arts?
Chris Johnson
Chas wrote:
>
>
> No, I meant the part about 'dislocations in the metal'.
Do a little research on metallurgy. Forging introduces dislocations in
the metal's grain
structure which is what makes forgings stronger than the same material
unforged.
>
>
> >......There was no scarcity issue with the steel.
>
> Always has been a scarcity.
> Kanteisha even sought out broken or rusted kitchen ware to reclaim the
> iron.
That was thriftiness. Japan was (and maybe still is) moderately well
provided
for with natural iron ore deposits. There's PLENTY of iron bearing sand
left
and it's easy to harvest. Just pick it up off the beach. If they
needed a lot,
they had it, but it does take time and effort to process it.
>
>
> > > Yes- most swords of that type and period were differentially
> > > hardened-
> > > the clay masking was necessary for water/brine tempering.
> > Wrong.
>
> No, they heat treated in one movement in water- different from oil.
It is clear to me that you know nothing of heat treatment as it applies to
Japanese
swords. I refer you to the basic but highly accurate book "The Craft of
the
Japanese Sword" for a well-written and highly accurate overview of the
making
of a Japanese sword from start to finish, written in part by Yoshindo
Yoshihara,
currently one of the top Japanese smiths, rated mukansa. (This means
that his
work is so good that it is no longer judged against other smiths in sword
making
competition, and is only judged against other mukansa.)
This is as good a source as any on the planet, and one read will convince
you
that you are simply, totally, irrevocably, and completely wrong.
Incidentally, the only oil quenched/tempered Japanese swords were a
relative few
showato made in the years around WWII.
>
>
> > "Soul polished?" Never heard the term. Nor have I heard of the
> > samurai
> > polishing their own swords, either.
>
> Lots of woodcuts showing them doing it; sitting around after a battle.
> The fine polishing has always been rare and reserved for very fine
> blades.
That's the normal CLEANING process! If you were at all involved in
Japanese sword appreciation, you'd know an uchiko (cleaning implement)
from an uchigomori stone (polisher's most critical stone) and how
different
they are, but it's clear that you DON'T know.
Every person who owns a Japanese sword by rights should have a cleaning
kit and know how to use it. It's as essential for a sword owner to have a
cleaning kit as it is for you to change the oil in your car from time to
time.
To think that you've mistaken routine cleaning for polishing, that'd be
worth a good belly laugh if it weren't so tragically ignorant.
>
>
> > I really rather doubt it, too,
>
> The basic shaping is done with a sen- kind of a spokeshave looking
> thing. Cheaper swords would have had no more than a sen finish- better
> swords different grades of polish.
Bullshit. The sen is used ONLY to shape the blade after rough forging
and before heat treatment and tempering. After that, EVERY blade
gets a foundation polish. (Shitajitogi) Often it's the smith himself who
performs the foundation polish so that he defines the lines of the blade
to his liking, and only then turns it over to the polisher for him to
finish.
Other smiths may send the blade to the polisher for the foundation
polish as well, if they trust the polisher to define the blade's lines in
an appropriate manner.
Every sword, even those intended for iai, can be assured of getting
at LEAST a polish up to the uchigomori stone stage, which leaves
the ji (edge) clear, smooth, and with a satiny finish. Better swords
get the full treatment, and the better the sword, the better the
polisher
is that works on it, generally speaking. A bad polish can degrade
the value of a blade.
You may be assured, I have some knowledge of this and what I
claim to know, I know well enough that there simply isn't any guessing
about it. When it comes to Japanese swords and particularly their
polishing process, I DO know a bit about it. I am an amateur
polisher, and always will be, technically speaking, unless I take
an apprenticeship for several years. But, I'm educated on the
subject and have received much of my education by learning from
a professional polisher with an excellent reputation. I do it the
right way, with the right stones and the right equipment with the
right techniques. I've spent many hundreds of dollars on various
stones and other supplies. I've polished only a few swords to date, and
all but two belonged to me, and I've practiced and continue to
practice to the point that I'm not ashamed to show my best work
to anyone. It's a long and tedious process, but I can bring out
virtually the same effects and details that a professional polisher
can, provided they're there in the steel to begin with, though it
may take a pro less time and less guesswork to achieve it,
and of course his work will be more authoritative. I am still
learning and will continue to do so for many years to come,
that is, if I continue to polish swords.
But one thing I'm sure of, is that you, sir, are more misinformed
or uninformed that I am when it comes to the general truths regarding
Japanese swords and polishing. Accept this fact and do something
about it. It can be as simple as buying the one book I mentioned, and
reading it. It by itself can clear up many of your misconceptions.
"He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is stupid. Shun him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is simple. Educate him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep. Wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is wise. Learn from him."
You're either the first or the second. Hopefully, it's the second,
because
it means that your lack of correct knowledge is something that you are
willing to correct by getting an education on the relevant subject.
When you are made aware that you lack certain knowledge, you will either
do nothing or you will obtain that knowledge. One is the path of the
fool,
and the other is the path of the wise man. Choose.
CJ
Robin L. Gooch
"Spiral Terrapins" <dnatu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eyK6Vg1PCHA.1872@cpimsnntpa03...
>
> "Robin L. Gooch" <ros...@ih2000.net> wrote in message
> news:ul61ol4...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Primitive Asian kicking looked alot like purring and their hand strikes
> > looked like boxing. Nowdays "karate" and other arts are just composites
> made
> > up of boxing, collar-n-elbow, zipota, savate etc. There is NOTHING in
> > traditional Asian martial arts that can't also be found in Western arts.
> >
>
> Including the flying round house kick?
> The nun chaku?
>
>
>
Especially the lateral kicking methods. All lateral kicks come from savate
or Yuna Onse. Asian methods used upward snaps with the shin, blade or ball
of the foot. Take a look at Ed Parker's first book. Even Taekkyon used
mostly forward thrust kicks. The Koreans simply learned savate from the
French and incorpoated it into Shotokan to create TaeKwonDo.
Matthew Weigel
>Especially the lateral kicking methods. All lateral kicks come from
>savate or Yuna Onse. Asian methods used upward snaps with the shin,
>blade or ball of the foot. Take a look at Ed Parker's first book. Even
>Taekkyon used mostly forward thrust kicks. The Koreans simply learned
>savate from the French and incorpoated it into Shotokan to create
>TaeKwonDo.
What a very, very bizarre claim.
You are misinformed if you think that TaeKwonDo has any believable link
to savate.
TaeKwonDo gets its lateral kicking from shotokan, which got it from
Okinawan karate. In fact, there isn't any credible evidence of which
I'm aware that shows that TKD's origin is anything but shotokan with
the labels filed off. Certainly, from everything I've heard of savate,
it doesn't have the high, flashy kicks of TKD.
--
Matthew Weigel
Research Systems Programmer
mcwe...@cs.cmu.edu
Chas
>
> Chas wrote:
> > No, I meant the part about 'dislocations in the metal'.
> Do a little research on metallurgy. Forging introduces dislocations in
> the metal's grain
> structure which is what makes forgings stronger than the same material
> unforged.
Cite please.
> > Always has been a scarcity.
> > Kanteisha even sought out broken or rusted kitchen ware to reclaim the
> > iron.
> That was thriftiness. Japan was (and maybe still is) moderately well
> provided
> for with natural iron ore deposits. There's PLENTY of iron bearing sand
> left
> and it's easy to harvest. Just pick it up off the beach. If they
> needed a lot,
> they had it, but it does take time and effort to process it.
Sand iron has been rare there for 500 years- to the extent that they
used 'namban tetsu'- foreign steel- in a lot of their blades,
including the very fine ones.
> > No, they heat treated in one movement in water- different from oil.
>
> It is clear to me that you know nothing of heat treatment as it applies to
> Japanese
> swords. .........
> This is as good a source as any on the planet, and one read will convince
> you
> that you are simply, totally, irrevocably, and completely wrong.
I have the book- cite your reference in it.
> Incidentally, the only oil quenched/tempered Japanese swords were a
> relative few
> showato made in the years around WWII.
Sure- they generally used water/brine.
> > Lots of woodcuts showing them doing it; sitting around after a battle.
> > The fine polishing has always been rare and reserved for very fine
> > blades.
> That's the normal CLEANING process! If you were at all involved in
> Japanese sword appreciation, you'd know an uchiko (cleaning implement)
> from an uchigomori stone (polisher's most critical stone) and how
> different
> they are, but it's clear that you DON'T know.
I'm not talking about chrysanthemum oil and uchiko- I'm talking about
rubbing the swords on a stone- not a cleaning process, a sharpening
one.
> Bullshit. The sen is used ONLY to shape the blade after rough forging
> and before heat treatment and tempering. After that, EVERY blade
> gets a foundation polish. (Shitajitogi) Often it's the smith himself who
> performs the foundation polish so that he defines the lines of the blade
> to his liking, and only then turns it over to the polisher for him to
> finish.
> Other smiths may send the blade to the polisher for the foundation
> polish as well, if they trust the polisher to define the blade's lines in
> an appropriate manner.
Not in the kaga swords- they were scraped with the sen and mounted.
> Every sword, even those intended for iai, can be assured of getting
> at LEAST a polish up to the uchigomori stone stage, which leaves
> the ji (edge) clear, smooth, and with a satiny finish. Better swords
> get the full treatment, and the better the sword, the better the
> polisher
> is that works on it, generally speaking. A bad polish can degrade
> the value of a blade.
You're still talking about upper class blades, not the common sword.
They were so cheap, they were sold by the bundle (kagato). This was
the quality of the vast majority of nihonto. Upper class swords got a
finer sharpening/polish.
> But one thing I'm sure of, is that you, sir, are more misinformed
> or uninformed that I am when it comes to the general truths regarding
> Japanese swords and polishing.
You're as full of shit as a Christmas goose, and should be warded from
sharp things, lest you do yourself a mischief.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403
ch...@kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://chasclements.tripod.com/index.htm
Robin L. Gooch
"Matthew Weigel" <mcwe...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:aj25nf$1q7$1...@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu...
Then show me just one old karate manual demonstrating round, spinning or
side thrust kicks.
Chris Johnson
Chas wrote:
> Chris Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Chas wrote:
> > > No, I meant the part about 'dislocations in the metal'.
> > Do a little research on metallurgy. Forging introduces dislocations in
> > the metal's grain
> > structure which is what makes forgings stronger than the same material
> > unforged.
>
> Cite please.
Here's a whole shitpile of cites:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=metallurgy+forging+dislocation
The entire REASON for forging many items is that it increases the strength and
durability
of steel and some other metals including aluminum. Didn't you ever wonder why
all
good tools are usually marked "drop forged"???
You should have learned that in your semester of high school physics, if not
earlier.
>
>
>
>
> Sand iron has been rare there for 500 years- to the extent that they
> used 'namban tetsu'- foreign steel- in a lot of their blades,
> including the very fine ones.
I will admit that you could be right on that one. But what you say is
at odds with what I've gathered by other sources.
>
>
> > > No, they heat treated in one movement in water- different from oil.
> >
> > It is clear to me that you know nothing of heat treatment as it applies to
> > Japanese
> > swords. .........
> > This is as good a source as any on the planet, and one read will convince
> > you
> > that you are simply, totally, irrevocably, and completely wrong.
>
> I have the book- cite your reference in it.
Page 89, yaki-ire, and page 92, halfway down the page, in the paragraph
beginning "After yaki-ire, Yoshindo removes the sword from the water and
runs it through the coals, reheating it to 160 degrees C and quenching it
again. This is called tempering (yaki-modoshi) and helps relieve the stress..."
Happy?
>
>
> > Incidentally, the only oil quenched/tempered Japanese swords were a
> > relative few
> > showato made in the years around WWII.
>
> Sure- they generally used water/brine.
>
> > > Lots of woodcuts showing them doing it; sitting around after a battle.
> > > The fine polishing has always been rare and reserved for very fine
> > > blades.
> > That's the normal CLEANING process! If you were at all involved in
> > Japanese sword appreciation, you'd know an uchiko (cleaning implement)
> > from an uchigomori stone (polisher's most critical stone) and how
> > different
> > they are, but it's clear that you DON'T know.
>
> I'm not talking about chrysanthemum oil and uchiko- I'm talking about
> rubbing the swords on a stone- not a cleaning process, a sharpening
> one.
Do you mean clove oil, perhaps? Choji, to use the Japanese term?
(Of course, only a little clove oil is mixed in with vegetable oil as used
in the cleaning and oiling of the sword. Too much clove oil can stain
the steel.) I haven't ever heard of chrysanthemum oil.
>
>
>
>
> Not in the kaga swords- they were scraped with the sen and mounted.
I confess, I know NOTHING of any such sword known as a kaga sword.
It's news to me.
Incidentally, I ran a search on "kaga", "kaga sword" "kagato" and "kagato
sword"
on Google and found NOTHING to support your claim. NOTHING. However,
I did find far too many references to some Japanese anime series that I had to
filter
out by exclusive search terms.
Your claim is as of yet unsubstantiated. Would you care to offer any
evidence of the existence of these alleged kagato?
>
>
> > Every sword, even those intended for iai, can be assured of getting
> > at LEAST a polish up to the uchigomori stone stage, which leaves
> > the ji (edge) clear, smooth, and with a satiny finish. Better swords
> > get the full treatment, and the better the sword, the better the
> > polisher
> > is that works on it, generally speaking. A bad polish can degrade
> > the value of a blade.
>
> You're still talking about upper class blades, not the common sword.
> They were so cheap, they were sold by the bundle (kagato). This was
> the quality of the vast majority of nihonto. Upper class swords got a
> finer sharpening/polish.
Again, this is news to me. And again, my searches on the 'net revealed
nothing to support this claim. Even if they DO exist, I stand
by my statement that practically all polishing of high quality swords is
left to specialist polishers. I doubt you'd disagree with that.
>
>
>
>
> You're as full of shit as a Christmas goose, and should be warded from
> sharp things, lest you do yourself a mischief.
The first part MIGHT be true, but as for the second....I'm quite careful
and have good coordination and moderately good judgement, so such
excessive precautions are probably not necessary.
Unless you can show reasonable proof of the existence of kaga swords,
then I will have to consider YOU to be the victim of fecal impaction.
CJ
Chas
>
> Chas wrote:
>
> > Chris Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > Chas wrote:
> > > > No, I meant the part about 'dislocations in the metal'
> Here's a whole shitpile of cites:
Thanks- never heard the word used like that before.
> > I have the book- cite your reference in it.
> Page 89, yaki-ire, and page 92, halfway down the page, in the paragraph
> beginning "After yaki-ire, Yoshindo removes the sword from the water and
> runs it through the coals, reheating it to 160 degrees C and quenching it
> again. This is called tempering (yaki-modoshi) and helps relieve the stress..."
> Happy?
Sure- it points up the fact that Japanese blades were quenched in
water/brine- my point.
> Do you mean clove oil, perhaps? Choji, to use the Japanese term?
No, I mean chrysanthemum oil- a bit rarer and more expensive, but
preferred
> (Of course, only a little clove oil is mixed in with vegetable oil as used
> in the cleaning and oiling of the sword. Too much clove oil can stain
> the steel.) I haven't ever heard of chrysanthemum oil.
it's next to 'dislocation'.
> I confess, I know NOTHING of any such sword known as a kaga sword.
> It's news to me.
........
> Your claim is as of yet unsubstantiated. Would you care to offer any
> evidence of the existence of these alleged kagato?
WHB Hawley writes about them as he rates swordsmiths; particularly
during the 16th and 17th century wars.
> Again, this is news to me. And again, my searches on the 'net revealed
> nothing to support this claim. Even if they DO exist, I stand
> by my statement that practically all polishing of high quality swords is
> left to specialist polishers. I doubt you'd disagree with that.
True- I'm drawing the difference between the common sword carried by
low class samurai with the upper end swords. Obviously, the swords
that have survived for 400 years are good ones (by and large- there
are examples of all sorts).
Matthew Weigel
>> >savate or Yuna Onse. Asian methods used upward snaps with the shin,
>> What a very, very bizarre claim.
>>
>> You are misinformed if you think that TaeKwonDo has any believable link
>> to savate.
>Then show me just one old karate manual demonstrating round, spinning or
>side thrust kicks.
I think you are aware of how difficult it is to provide karate manuals
that predate savate. Certainly, however, the oldest manual I have
handy has mawashi-geri, and a newer book on an older style more
resistant to change (Shorin-Ryu) has mawashi-geri as well.
However, there are still a few ways to refute your claim, both about
karate and about Asian martial arts in general. First, of course, is
the obvious appeal to Japanese history. For quite some time prior to
the creation of a formal savate, and quite some time after, Japan was
closed to foreigners.
While it's doubtless that Okinawa enjoyed ignoring such restrictions as
much as possible, a) it's doubtful that Okinawa saw *that* much trade
coming in, and b) France didn't have much of a presence in the area.
Portugal, Spain, England, the US, the Dutch, *they* had either
colonies, or 'adopted' countries to which they had relatively exclusive
access.
After Japanese isolation ended, the Japanese still largely delt with
Westerners in major ports on Japan's main island, which had never seen
karate. Those Westerners consisting a lot less of French ships than
English and American, mind.
Second is the appeal to other "Asian methods" - since you made a wildly
sweeping claim. There is plenty of evidence of thrusting kicks and
roundhouse kicks in, for example, five animal kung fu. Muay Thai
indisputably got its kicks from the older Thai art of Krabi Krabong,
and it *definitely* has round house kicks - and round house kicks that
are decidedly different in mechanics and use than the round house of
savate.
Finally, I must point out that when you claim a historical link...
there's some reason to ask *you* for some evidence of its existance.
Cite away.
Chas
> ..........
> While it's doubtless that Okinawa enjoyed ignoring such restrictions as
> much as possible, a) it's doubtful that Okinawa saw *that* much trade
> coming in,
Gombosi's gonna get me, but in Bruce Haines' book 'Karate: It's
History & Traditions' (Tuttle, I think), he draws a line from Sumatran
silat to Okinawan 'te', particularly in the kicks. The Okinawan
language has a lot of 'malay' words/usages, there's been a commerce
between them for thousands of years.
As the Channel Islands come up from Singapore, it is easier to island
hop to Okinawa than to hug the Mainland coastline or travel by land.
They were doing it in dug-out canoes carved with stone tools, maybe as
much as 8,000 years ago, but certainly later.
> and b) France didn't have much of a presence in the area.
> Portugal, Spain, England, the US, the Dutch, *they* had either
> colonies, or 'adopted' countries to which they had relatively exclusive
> access.
The Europeans had influence from the other end of the chain of
islands.
The mythos in Java is that the indigenes learned western boxing and
taught kicking to the sailors/traders community through ports like
Betawi (Djakarta) as early as the mid-Seventeenth Century. The
'Dutch', at that time, included some of Northern France, and so you
get names like 'de Thouars' ('of Thiers') arriving very early in the
contact history, with a constant trade between the countries
thereafter. The Dutch were traders, not conquerors. They married into
the community and traded with all the groups pretty equally.
> After Japanese isolation ended, the Japanese still largely delt with
> Westerners in major ports on Japan's main island, which had never seen
> karate. Those Westerners consisting a lot less of French ships than
> English and American, mind.
Musashi saw the Portuguese as early as the mid-1600's, and his
interpretation of two sword style was, some think, derived from seeing
the rapier and maingauche favored by the Portuguese during that
period.
That also ignores the possible influence on martial art from the
Southern Islands of Japan. The 'wako' (w'ou k'ou) pirates, and small
boat traders that worked those islands were active martial artists.
The Dayak, Ifugao, Bugis and so on made up a lot of the pirate
community (even though they were captained and shipped by Chinese in
many cases). Arts connected to the military/political structure would
not have had contact with practitioners of these systems.
As an aside, the grappling/striking system that Hatsumi shows looks a
lot like some systems of silat. The idea that 'ninja' had contact with
the pirates/smugglers is not too terribly farfetched, although
undocumented in my own knowledge.
> .......and round house kicks that
> are decidedly different in mechanics and use than the round house of
> savate.
'Kuda' systems in Sumatra, particularly in the mid/south region as I
understand it, are heavily 'leg-based'. Haines talks about it, and
I've got a bit more information by tying some other sources together
from other study.
The map tells it all. The progression leads right from SEAsia to
Taiwan/Quemoy Matsu and up the body to Japan and Korea. Trade in
spices and medicines from Indonesia was a *necessity*; the 'Silk Road'
was also the 'Spice Road'. Caravans of traders were martial artists;
had to be. That was a popular job for tough guys according to folk
tales about martial artists. The 'tools of the trade' amongst martial
professionals are techniques and tips and fine weapons; both of which
abounded in the Spice Islands.
> Finally, I must point out that when you claim a historical link...
> there's some reason to ask *you* for some evidence of its existance.
> Cite away.
My evidence is mostly circumstantial. That group of cultures are so
foreign, that we know little about them except what was written by
Chinese and European scholars *about* them. These guys ranged from
bone-in-the-nose primitives to incredibly lavish and sophisticated
courts, but they speak 3500 languages from 27 ethnic groups practicing
six major religions on 17,500 islands. The 'evidence' is pretty
implicative, but reasonable references can be found in Donn Draeger's
book 'Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago' in the
first part about the early history of the general area. Then one ties
the history of the Filipines and the history of the Ryukyus and the
history of the Chinese and the history of the Japanese- the connective
date/timeline is pretty indicative of significant commerce by very
primitive means if necessary.
Chris Johnson
Chas wrote:
> Chris Johnson wrote:
> >
> > Chas wrote:
> >
> > > Chris Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chas wrote:
> > > > > No, I meant the part about 'dislocations in the metal'
> > > Cite please.
> > Here's a whole shitpile of cites:
>
> Thanks- never heard the word used like that before.
Sure. No problem.
>
>
> > > I have the book- cite your reference in it.
> > Page 89, yaki-ire, and page 92, halfway down the page, in the paragraph
> > beginning "After yaki-ire, Yoshindo removes the sword from the water and
> > runs it through the coals, reheating it to 160 degrees C and quenching it
> > again. This is called tempering (yaki-modoshi) and helps relieve the stress..."
> > Happy?
>
> Sure- it points up the fact that Japanese blades were quenched in
> water/brine- my point.
>
Maybe I somehow got the impression that you thought that swords were
heat treated in a single stage rather than by a two stage harden/temper process.
>
> > Do you mean clove oil, perhaps? Choji, to use the Japanese term?
>
> No, I mean chrysanthemum oil- a bit rarer and more expensive, but
> preferred
>
> > (Of course, only a little clove oil is mixed in with vegetable oil as used
> > in the cleaning and oiling of the sword. Too much clove oil can stain
> > the steel.) I haven't ever heard of chrysanthemum oil.
>
> it's next to 'dislocation'.
>
:)
>
> > I confess, I know NOTHING of any such sword known as a kaga sword.
> > It's news to me.
> ........
> > Your claim is as of yet unsubstantiated. Would you care to offer any
> > evidence of the existence of these alleged kagato?
>
> WHB Hawley writes about them as he rates swordsmiths; particularly
> during the 16th and 17th century wars.
>
So now I know roughly where to look...good enough for now.
>
> > Again, this is news to me. And again, my searches on the 'net revealed
> > nothing to support this claim. Even if they DO exist, I stand
> > by my statement that practically all polishing of high quality swords is
> > left to specialist polishers. I doubt you'd disagree with that.
>
> True- I'm drawing the difference between the common sword carried by
> low class samurai with the upper end swords. Obviously, the swords
> that have survived for 400 years are good ones (by and large- there
> are examples of all sorts).
>
It is understandable that "throwaway" items are usually thrown away.
The samurai who had such swords would probably be "raw recruits"
so to speak, and either they'd lose in a fight or they'd learn, gain skill,
and advance in status as well as skill, and would then get a "real" sword.
Either way, the results are about the same. A samurai with seniority
would have a better sword and it would be cared for to last a long time.
This is good. This little subthread has been a classic example of how
problems can be resolved by communication.
CJ
Matthew Weigel
>Matthew Weigel wrote:
>> ..........
>> While it's doubtless that Okinawa enjoyed ignoring such restrictions as
>> much as possible, a) it's doubtful that Okinawa saw *that* much trade
>> coming in,
>
>Gombosi's gonna get me, but in Bruce Haines' book 'Karate: It's
>History & Traditions' (Tuttle, I think),
Yeah, one of the books I was looking at in writing my post.
Steve, got any criticisms of the book, or just Chas's
Indonesian-centric view of it? :-)
>he draws a line from Sumatran silat to Okinawan 'te', particularly in
>the kicks. The Okinawan language has a lot of 'malay' words/usages,
>there's been a commerce between them for thousands of years.
Sure - I think you may have taken my statement out of context, I was
talking about the period after savate's documented beginning, and a
little bit before for good measure; Tokugawa period of Japan.
But Haines, and many historians, also draw lines from Chinese arts to
Okinawan ones; dating to either the 7th century or the 14th. Certainly
when Okinawa became a tributary of China, there was going to be some
influence <g>.
>Betawi (Djakarta) as early as the mid-Seventeenth Century. The
>'Dutch', at that time, included some of Northern France, and so you
Hmmm. That's worth looking into.
But all of these influences predate savate, and any documentation I've
seen of savate's ancestors.
>My evidence is mostly circumstantial.
And doesn't support much of savate being the source for kicks in
karate, I think you'll grant :)
I'm not saying Europeans had no influence, but that savate is not the
source for "Asian methods" of lateral kicking and thrust kicking. If
anything, there seem to be more folks talking about the French getting
their kicking from somewhere Eastern, rather than putting it there; but
I've seen about as much support for that theory as this one.
>date/timeline is pretty indicative of significant commerce by very
>primitive means if necessary.
Absotively.
Chas
> Maybe I somehow got the impression that you thought that swords were
> heat treated in a single stage rather than by a two stage harden/temper process.
Many were.
One of the aspects of the clayed quench process is that the blade need
no further tempering if done correctly. That's one of the reasons that
the body of water/brine is so specifically described. There were
processes of light heating to adjust sorii and so forth, but really
good blades were often left as is in terms of heat-treatment.
In fact, mizu-kage is considered indicative of a lesser quality blade
by many kanteisha- Honami's in particular.
Many people don't know that blades were often buried for a couple of
years in a belief that it allowed the sword to 'settle'. There is a
similar european tradition for tools, if not weapons.
> > WHB Hawley writes about them as he rates swordsmiths; particularly
> > during the 16th and 17th century wars.
> So now I know roughly where to look...good enough for now.
I think the old Yamamoto book uses the term also. Hawley, Robinson and
Sato are my basic references, so it wouldn't be too far afield from
them.
> It is understandable that "throwaway" items are usually thrown away.
Yeah, Hawley figures that as many as 1/3 of fine swords were destroyed
in use, another third lost to fires/mishaps, another third still
extant before the Second World War. Half to 2/3rds were destroyed and
about 150K survive.
The kagato were for arming the huge armies of the late sixteenth and
early seventeenth century. Hawley speaks of large smithies that turned
them out en masse and doesn't consider them in his classifications of
smiths.
> The samurai who had such swords would probably be "raw recruits"
> so to speak, and either they'd lose in a fight or they'd learn, gain skill,
> and advance in status as well as skill, and would then get a "real" sword.
The differences in requirements for koto, shinto, shinshinto and gunto
swords were immense.
> Either way, the results are about the same. A samurai with seniority
> would have a better sword and it would be cared for to last a long time.
They were often 'honour gifts', rewards, purchased out of private
funds, heirlooms- many swords have served hundreds of years with
remounting or have been kept in honour of a distinguished owner
whether of outstanding inherent quality or not.
> This is good. This little subthread has been a classic example of how
> problems can be resolved by communication.
cool.
Chas
> ......
> I'm not saying Europeans had no influence, but that savate is not the
> source for "Asian methods" of lateral kicking and thrust kicking. If
> anything, there seem to be more folks talking about the French getting
> their kicking from somewhere Eastern, rather than putting it there; but
> I've seen about as much support for that theory as this one.
Well, fuckydoodoo, I had the proposition backwards.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
>
>Hogwash-
>The Japanese *learned* swordmaking from the Chinese who learned it
>from the Europeans.
>
Might want to brush up on your revisionist history there bud, because
the Chinese did not learn swordmaking from the europeans. The Chinese
were the first to perfect ironworking. Seriously, go read some books
they might do you some good.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
wrote:
>
>
>Chas is right. While the question is not fully settled, there is
>strong historical and archaeological evidence that serious swordmaking
>travelled west from Europe to China. and thence to Japan.
>
>Regards,
>
I hate revisionism in history, seriously go read some BOOKS on the
subject. I'm a history major and know a lot about ancient military
warfare. The Chinese did not learn swordmaking from the europeans.
Next you'll be telling me Marco polo brought noodles to China.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
wrote:
>eatit <ea...@eatitraw.com> wrote:
>>Bull. Chin Na or Shuai Jiao. Chinese wrestling doesn't get the
>>attention other aspects do. But they are just as complex, if not more
>>so, as western wrestling
>
>Complexity doesn't equal useful and effective application.
>--Don--
>Let me show you how the guards used to do it...
Eastern or western martial arts?
Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day. What
everyone practices and what's popular today is just a practical
variation of jiu jitsu. However, the fundamentals are the same,
choking, armbars, weight counterbalance, etc..
Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
The truth is if asian martial arts were never introduced most likely
western style boxing or wrestling would be considered the "ultimate
fighting."
To say that asian martial arts isn't practical is
laughable..considering that everyone practices a variation of it these
days for NHB tournaments.
Don Wagner
How many ranks composed a Spartan phalanx?
Which way did weak phalanxs drift?
What was on the crest of many Macedonian helmets circa Alexnders life?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Don Wagner
>On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:48:21 GMT, dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner)
>wrote:
>>--Don--
>>Let me show you how the guards used to do it...
>Eastern or western martial arts?
Both.
>Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day.
Cite references.
> What everyone practices and what's popular today is just a practical
>variation of jiu jitsu.
Patently untrue. HS and collegate wrestling doesn't resemple JJ at
all.
> However, the fundamentals are the same,
>choking, armbars, weight counterbalance, etc..
Sure thing.
>Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
...and Chinese wrestling always results in maiming or death?
>To say that asian martial arts isn't practical is
>laughable..considering that everyone practices a variation of it these
>days for NHB tournaments.
No one said that to my knowledge.
Paul Maybury
"Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message
news:3D53FF82...@heapy.com...
> Richard Lancashire wrote:
>
> > But wear eye protection, bone chips can be sharp.
> >
> > Ummm, apparently.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Rich
>
> Oh come off it. The chicks say that patch makes you look Dashing and
> Mysterious. ;-)
It works for Number Two. As long as Austin's not in the room of course.
tpm
Matt
Kirk (and some others) was doin' such a fine job handling things
already I didn't have anything to add. But, hey, I finally came up
with somthing. In regards to early meetings of juijitsu and
wrestling, Teddy Roosevelt had this to say...
"I still box with Grant, who has now become the champion middleweight
wrestler of the United States. Yesterday afternoon we had Professor
Yamashita up here to wrestle with Grant. It was very interesting, but
of course jiu jitsu and our wrestling are so far apart that it is
difficult to make any comparison between them. Wrestling is simply a
sport with rules almost as conventional as those of tennis, while jiu
jitsu is really meant for practice in killing or disabling our
adversary. In consequence, Grant did not know what to do except to put
Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on
his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of
two minutes more he got an elbow hold on him that would have enabled
him to break his arm; so that there is no question but that he could
have put Grant out. So far this made it evident that the jiu jitsu man
could handle the ordinary wrestler. But Grant, in the actual wrestling
and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much
stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the Japanese. With a
little practice in the art I am sure that one of our big wrestlers or
boxers, simply because of his greatly superior strength, would be able
to kill any of those Japanese, who though very good men for their
inches and pounds are altogether too small to hold their own against
big, powerful, quick men who are as well trained."
So it would seem that the main problem was that wrestling had been
sporterized, so that it had no finishing/submission moves. As far as
the basics (of throwing and manuevering for position) though, it was a
match or perhaps even superior to juijitsu.
Regards,
Matt
PS. It's been said, but I have to chime in too that Eastern MA are in
no way superior to WMA. In fact, I'd stack medieval longsword (both
as a weapon and for technique) up against a kat any day of the week!
fu...@nospamearthlink.net wrote in message news:<3d55c658...@news.verizon.net>...
how...@brazee.net
On 7-Aug-2002, "Spiral Terrapins" <dnatu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Surely all cultures developed highy efficient methods of maiming and
> killing
> people but why did Asians take this to new heights?
>
> In other words, why weren't Venetians doing the flying round-house kick
> against Florentines?
You mean fighting with back flips the way they do with movies?
Matthew Weigel
>wrestling, Teddy Roosevelt had this to say...
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that in... :)
Kirk Lawson
> I think the type of sword you're talking about it was called, among other
> things, a "Kopis" "Kopesh" or "Falcata." Apparently a lot of pre-roman
> Celts used a similar weapon. I've never handled one, but I would expect
> that the forward-curving blade would make it handle something like an axe,
> but with a bit less awkwardness when thrusting was involved. Definitely
> oriented to hacking more than slashing... the shape of the blade is designed
> to drive the edge straight into the target, rather than drawing it across
> the surface like a saw. At least at the "belly" of the weapon, the tip
> would presumably still be useful for slashing.
The Yataghan is a dual purpose. It has a convex curve on the bottom
half and a concave curve on the top half of the blade. Kind of like a
Khukri strethed out to sword length and thinned a bit.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethforum/messages/763.html
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Kirk Lawson
> > Storys wrote:
> > > Ever try to find a teacher of Cornish wrestling?? No I don't know
> > > where to find one. I know the term but I don't know technique one or
> where
> > > to find a teacher ( if there is one )
> >
> > They're not easy to find (believe me). There's a lot of notes on it.
> > There is still a Cornish Wrestling association that I've heard of. They
> > supposedly published a book on the rules and techniques, but I've not
> > been able to find a copy.
> >
> > (I know this wasn't exactly your point, or maybe it was and I'm
> > validating it.)
> >
> I've been trying to find out more about it for a while, next time I'm down
> that way I'll see what I can find and scan if you like, I'm making no
> promises though, I don't get around as much as I used to.
Well, I won't hold you to any promises, but some more information would
always be appreciated. The current info on Cornish Collar and Elbow
from period texts (such as Walker, Wylde, and Parkyns) is rather
difficult to work through on some of the moves. "The Hippe" and the
"Cross Buttocks" are pretty easy but some of the others start to look
"weird" in text.
Kirk Lawson
>
> "Kirk Lawson" <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message
> news:3D53C167...@heapy.com...
> >
> > validating it.)
> >
> >
>
> abandoned any given art as soon as something better ( more deadly ) came
> along.
Fairly true.
> Thus things like Cornish wrestling have become rare and very hard to
> find in the West. Perhaps ( I don't know & have no way of finding out )
> Cornish wrestling is the ultimate form of wrestling but we'll never know
> now.
Well, we know enough about Cornish Collar and Elbow wrestling to know
it's a Throwing art, not entirely dissimilar to Judo (though some would
be annoyed at the comparison). It contained hip throws, balance throws,
and trips. The object of it being to throw the other person to the
ground upon his back (called, creatively enough "Backing"). There are
several period texts that contain a good deal about the art, including
the component techniques (if you can figure out what the author is
trying to describe) some with drawings. Many early Americans practice
Collar and Elbow as sport, including some presidents. IIRC, both
Lincoln and Washington were reported to have practiced Collar and
Elbow.
Though greatly diminished, I believe that it may still be a living
tradition. I've heard of a Collar and Elbow Association/whatever still
in Cornwall, though I've yet to find any evidence of it outside of
rumor. If they have a web presence, I've yet to stumble across it.
Nevertheless, your point that it is "difficult" to find is well made.
Something of an understatement actually.
Kirk Lawson
> Do you mean clove oil, perhaps? Choji, to use the Japanese term?
> (Of course, only a little clove oil is mixed in with vegetable oil as used
> in the cleaning and oiling of the sword. Too much clove oil can stain
> the steel.) I haven't ever heard of chrysanthemum oil.
Vegetable oil? I coulda swore that it was mineral oil with clove added
to it for scent (the reason was unclear but the speculation was that it
would help differentiate between that and vegetable oil).
Sleepy
"Dave Mullett" <mul...@modex.com> wrote in message
news:D908EBA586BE8745.A5FDE0EE...@lp.airnews.net...
> "Sleepy" <put...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> > There is no doubt about it. Japanese sword making is superb. However the
> > Egyptians had a sword design that had a more extreme curve almost like a
> > crescent moon which protruded from the plane of the tang and with the
> blade
> > being on the outside edge of the weapon (the opposite side of a
Khukhuris
> > edge) which by its design (circular) was even stronger a composition
than
> > the slightly curved Katana offering a point of impact which
bites-cleaves
> or
> > could slice by applying it with differening techniques, except that, the
> > Egyptians didn't posses the technology that the Japanese have/had to
apply
> > it to their blades. Sorry I don't know the name of this blade I just
know
> of
> > its existance (some of my books have been stolen). Anyhow if both this
> > design and the Japanese swordmaking ever got together you'd have a whole
> new
> > bad boy on the block.
> > Cody
>
> I think the type of sword you're talking about it was called, among other
> things, a "Kopis" "Kopesh" or "Falcata." Apparently a lot of pre-roman
> Celts used a similar weapon. I've never handled one, but I would expect
> that the forward-curving blade would make it handle something like an axe,
> but with a bit less awkwardness when thrusting was involved. Definitely
> oriented to hacking more than slashing... the shape of the blade is
designed
> to drive the edge straight into the target, rather than drawing it across
> the surface like a saw. At least at the "belly" of the weapon, the tip
> would presumably still be useful for slashing.
>
with
> this blade design to try to resurrect it from time to time, though in a
> longer, lighter shape with a more subtle curve, similar to the cavalry
> saber. Apparently this never caught on that well. Pretty sure I saw
> something similar in the hands of the tattoo-faced guy in "The Mummy
> Returns" (or whatever the movie was called.)
Its not a Kopesh or the extended Khukuhri that Kirk posted. What I'm talking
about looks more like an enlarged hand scythe except that the blade is on
the opposite side of what it would be on a scythe. Yeah it would handle
something like an axe but would also have other capabilities. I believe the
pbs show I first saw it on said that because of its extreme crescent shape
it was stronger at the point of impact than any other blade was at the time?
could have been at all it has been a while.
Cody
>
> --
> "People are not stupid. There are just certain things that they do not
think
> about. And if you don't think about those things, then it doesn't matter
> whether you are a genius or a moron. " - Thomas Sowell
>
>
Kirk Lawson
Actually, there is some evidence that Europeans were working steel from
meteoric iron before the Chinese were working steel. Whether or not
steel swords migrated to China from Europe is a matter of a lot of
archeological wars, but it *has* been suggested.
Kirk Lawson
> >Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day.
>
> Cite references.
Teddy R., in his Autobiography, talks about a certain famous Judoka who
would whip up on Grant in wrestling. And Barton-Wright would promote
his art "Bartitsu" by having a Judoka who worked with him take on
wrestlers. He didn't loose many bouts. Farmer Burns, speaking of
Judo/Jujutsu, calls it the Japanese "Tricky Wrestling" (though not
speaking highly of it, it does indicate a somewhat grudging respect).
I'm not sure any of these proves that "jiu jitsu stomped all over
wrestling back in the day" but it does indicate some interesting things.
Chas
> Actually, there is some evidence that Europeans were working steel from
> meteoric iron before the Chinese were working steel. Whether or not
> steel swords migrated to China from Europe is a matter of a lot of
> archeological wars, but it *has* been suggested.
Not just meteoric iron, in Northern Germany, iron occurs as pellets.
Iron working seems to have been early in Indonesia also- a connection
between being in a meteor shower path and seeing volcanic action of
melted stone.
You can walk from Paris to Peking- both ways.
The Britons had the largest and most sophisticated war/trading fleet
in the ancient world until the battle of Actium when it was wiped out
in a storm. They had traded in tin, for the world's bronze, since the
earliest Bronze age.
The blades that were traded through Damascus were from the North,
going East- hence the name 'damascus steel'. The later Wootz steel
from Northern India was from the Persian steel- which was a technical
knowledge coming from the North of them. Investing the bloom iron with
steel and carbide formations was a leap no one else made- mostly they
picked good steel from 'accidentally' carbonized iron and then
assembled the shards into rods, plates and those forge welded into
blades.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
>So it would seem that the main problem was that wrestling had been
>sporterized, so that it had no finishing/submission moves. As far as
>the basics (of throwing and manuevering for position) though, it was a
>match or perhaps even superior to juijitsu.
I seriously doubt that, look at all the pure wrestlers that got their
asses whipped in NHB tournaments before they learned fundamental
jiu-jitsu and incorporated other aspects of eastern art into their
format such as Muay thai. I still get a good chuckle when Frank
Shamrock did a 30 second armbar on that olympic gold medalist Kevin
Jackson. Plus old comments by FDR don't mean much since he probably
had his own biases. Not all japanese are "small" either, which is
evident if you watch Pride tournaments. I'd like to see a pure olympic
wrestler go up against someone like Sakuraba. The only person that was
able to beat him is a Muay-Thai (once against eastern based martial
arts)/submission brazilian specialist Vanderlei Silva.
>PS. It's been said, but I have to chime in too that Eastern MA are in
>no way superior to WMA. In fact, I'd stack medieval longsword (both
>as a weapon and for technique) up against a kat any day of the week!
I'd stack a mongolian recurved bow on horseback against a european
knight on horseback anyday! Matter of fact, I don't need to prove who
would win history already has. Plus the Chinese had their own version
of a broadsword back in the day so the longsword wasn't anything that
unique.
Really, what's with the blatant eurocentrism on these groups? It's as
if you guys can't even acknowledge the eastern arts were superior in
some formats than western. I call this revisionism and it has a tone
of cultural bigotry to it.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
>So it would seem that the main problem was that wrestling had been
>sporterized, so that it had no finishing/submission moves. As far as
>the basics (of throwing and manuevering for position) though, it was a
>match or perhaps even superior to juijitsu.
Oh yeah, I might add this is nonsense just look at all the pure
wrestlers (even when they know chokes and submissions) that get owned
by jiu jitsu specialists in NHB tournaments. Jiu Jitsu's technique
both IN the guard and out of it is far superior. Joint locks, leg
locks, armbars, chokes were all old hat in Jiu Jitsu. Wrestling only
had chokes and a few basic armbars but the whole science behind the
guard was lost. Old school wrestlers always try to jockey for the
pinned position without knowing that you can also submit someone from
the guard. Wrestling is too dependent on the top mounted position and
pinning. Seriously, go to a BJJ school and start a ruckus with a
wrestling buddy and you'll see who wins in no time.
Like I said look at how easily Frank Shamrock submitted a OLYMPIC
FREEYSTLE WRESTLING GOLD MEDALIST with a guard position armbar.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>Actually, there is some evidence that Europeans were working steel from
>meteoric iron before the Chinese were working steel. Whether or not
>steel swords migrated to China from Europe is a matter of a lot of
>archeological wars, but it *has* been suggested.
Sure and the U.S. military learned how to make nuclear bombs from
space aliens.
Cite sources please.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
wrote:
>>Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day.
>
>Cite references.
Whatever, Jiu Jitsu totally revolutionized the way NHB fights take
place. Just look at the early NHB tournaments where wrestlers and
various other "western" practioners such as pure boxers blundered
around while the Gracies made them look like chumps.
>Patently untrue. HS and collegate wrestling doesn't resemple JJ at
>all.
I'm not talking about the HS or collegiate wrestling purists. I'm
talking about NHB tournaments which is overwhelmingly jiu jitsu
orientated.
>...and Chinese wrestling always results in maiming or death?
I'm talking about Jiu Jitsu what does this have to do with "chinese"
wrestling? lol, unless you think jiu jitsu is chinese.
>No one said that to my knowledge.
I've seen it stated that western MA are "superior" but that just isn't
so in the NHB ring which is as close to real life fighting as it gets.
Chas
> Cite sources please.
Ecktually- as you made the first statement of 'fact', the onus for you
to prove the antiquity, technical sophistication and design attributes
of nihonto is the thing to be proven.
Besides, I posted two cites about swordmaking in antiquity in Celtic
lands- it's on you now.
fu...@nospamearthlink.net
>fu...@nospamearthlink.net wrote:
>> Cite sources please.
>
>Ecktually- as you made the first statement of 'fact', the onus for you
>to prove the antiquity, technical sophistication and design attributes
>of nihonto is the thing to be proven.
I don't have to prove anything as this is cross posted anyways and
you're the one making outrageous claims about europeans molding steel
from meteorites. Cite this "evidence" you speak of.
Also who said metal working is only Japanese? China probably had much
more ancient metalworking that was passed on to the Japanese.
Chas
> I don't have to prove anything as this is cross posted anyways and
> you're the one making outrageous claims about europeans molding steel
> from meteorites. Cite this "evidence" you speak of.
No, I talked about pellet iron- meteorites were more in Indonesia
because it's in a meteor shower path.
Check Draeger's 'Weapons & Fighting Arts of the Indonesian
Archipelago' for historical information on 'pamor' steel. I think it
also talks about the very early lanka/lantaka cannons- the Islanders
were about at the same level as Europeans in terms of cannon.
Alfred Pendray's work will give some historical information on Celtic
metalworking as well as the recreation of Wootz steel.
> Also who said metal working is only Japanese? China probably had much
> more ancient metalworking that was passed on to the Japanese.
Older than 'Japanese' history. Even the tumulus swords are hundreds of
years later than lots of European antiquities- and are
characteristically Chinese in design and execution, if not actually
being imports.
SEAsian metalworking predates the Chinese- ref. 'Plain of Jars'.
Matt
> On 11 Aug 2002 12:17:37 -0700, first_...@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>
>
> >So it would seem that the main problem was that wrestling had been
> >sporterized, so that it had no finishing/submission moves. As far as
> >the basics (of throwing and manuevering for position) though, it was a
> >match or perhaps even superior to juijitsu.
>
Uh, what's to doubt? I cited an account of an actual bout. That was
the result. Wrestling lost, but it was clearly because there were no
chokes or submissions. Otherwise for throws, takedowns and groundwork
they appeared about equal.
, look at all the pure wrestlers that got their
> asses whipped in NHB tournaments before they learned fundamental
> jiu-jitsu and incorporated other aspects of eastern art into their
> format such as Muay thai.
Severn didn't get his "ass whipped" even though he suffered from the
same problem (a lack of finishing moves). And to hear MMA folk on
this board talk, in addition to MT, the other striking art that is a
"must know" is boxing. So I'd say your point is a bit lacking.
> Plus old comments by FDR... don't mean much since he probably
> had his own biases.
First, it's TEDDY Roosevelt, not FDR. Second your claim is baseless.
Your essentially making it up (that he was biased). In fact, the
evidence would suggest he was not biased, since he admired and
_practiced_ juijitsu himself!
> evident if you watch Pride tournaments. I'd like to see a pure olympic
> wrestler go up against someone like Sakuraba.
Why? Would Sakuraba use pure juitsu with no striking? If not you're
comparing apples and oranges.
> Really, what's with the blatant eurocentrism on these groups? It's as
> if you guys can't even acknowledge the eastern arts were superior in
> some formats than western.
Can you admit the same about Western arts? Besides, AFAIK know no one
here is claiming all WMA is superior. We're basically just saying (at
least I am) that Eastern MA aren't superior. WMA are just as good.
I call this revisionism and it has a tone
> of cultural bigotry to it.
That shows your own lack of knowledge in the area of Western martial
history.
Matt
Matt
> On 11 Aug 2002 12:17:37 -0700, first_...@yahoo.com (Matt) wrote:
>
>
> >So it would seem that the main problem was that wrestling had been
> >sporterized, so that it had no finishing/submission moves. As far as
> >the basics (of throwing and manuevering for position) though, it was a
> >match or perhaps even superior to juijitsu.
>
>
> Oh yeah, I might add this is nonsense just look at all the pure
That's funny. I cite an actual account of an early meeting between a
wrestler and a juijitsu master, and you say the result is nonsense
because of modern NHB. Talk about a non-sequiter.
My cat's breath smells like cat food.
Matt
Robin L. Gooch
(even when they know chokes and submissions) that get owned by jiu jitsu
specialists in NHB tournaments."
By "Jiu Jitsu" I'd guess you mean the BRAZILIAN version. BTW "jiu jitsu" is
the French spelling. Wrestling had no submissions but JiuJitsu (Kosen Judo
is actually what we're talking about) had no gouging or castrating
techniques. When two combatants don't know any sophisticated submissions
then it makes sense to break at a pinfall otherwise they're likely to slam
or resort to dirty tactics.
http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm
Matthew Weigel
>the French spelling.
HUH?
Didn't you say a few days ago that most Asian martial arts got their
kicking from savate? Do you have some sort of weird French fetish?
Gichoke
>
>Also who said metal working is only Japanese? China probably had much
>more ancient metalworking that was passed on to the Japanese.
The celts first produced steel.
Gi
Gichoke
>
>By "Jiu Jitsu" I'd guess you mean the BRAZILIAN version. BTW "jiu jitsu" is
>the French spelling. Wrestling had no submissions but JiuJitsu (Kosen Judo
>is actually what we're talking about) had no gouging or castrating
>techniques.
Wrestling is a very generic term.
To say "wrestling had no submissions" is not accurate.
Greco and freestyle dont, nor do sumo and 100 others.
But in american early years styles were brought from all over the world.Many
included submissions.
Freestyle began as a middleground between various styles so they could fight
under one set of rules.
Before it was even created the term "wrestling" in america would be more likely
to refer to catch as catch can than anything else.
I am not an advocate of a direct path between the william Muldoons and sakuraba
or frank shamrock(or furey) but that it was a prevelent style a century back is
beyond doubt.
Gi
Gichoke
>> evident if you watch Pride tournaments. I'd like to see a pure olympic
>> wrestler go up against someone like Sakuraba.
>
>Why? Would Sakuraba use pure juitsu with no striking? If not you're
>comparing apples and oranges.
Sakurbas base style is freestyle wrestling.
He was 4th at his weight in a nation of 130 million.
He has a victory over an olympic bronze medalist.
Calling him anything other than freestyle wrestling is like calling kurt angle
the same.
Gi
Kirk Lawson
> Its not a Kopesh or the extended Khukuhri that Kirk posted.
Yataghan. It's Turkish.
> What I'm talking
> about looks more like an enlarged hand scythe except that the blade is on
> the opposite side of what it would be on a scythe. Yeah it would handle
> something like an axe but would also have other capabilities. I believe the
> pbs show I first saw it on said that because of its extreme crescent shape
> it was stronger at the point of impact than any other blade was at the time?
> could have been at all it has been a while.
Still sounds like a type of Kopesh:
http://www.ufh.ac.za/collections/NAHECS/Museum/Indigenous/kopesh_style_sword.htm
Mike Ozanne
<l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>material etc. which was way beyond anything in the west.
>
>Similar observations apply to martial arts. I recall reading of
>a Judo master who visited England in the 1800's . He could throw
>any wrestler they could find with ridiculous ease.
Well the man in question (Tani Yukio) came to England in 1898, and he
was a master of Yoshin Ryu Jiu Jutsu, holding no rank in Judo until Kano
graded him 2nd Dan at the Budokwai in 1920. Part of the music hall act
consisted of getting challengers to wear a gi and obi so that Tani could
fight at an advantage.Having said that, those who met him attest his
excellent skills extreme fitness and bad-ass attitude whilst in combat.
--
Mike Ozanne
Mike Ozanne
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> writes
>Don Wagner wrote:
>
>> >Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day.
>>
>> Cite references.
>
>Teddy R., in his Autobiography, talks about a certain famous Judoka who
>would whip up on Grant in wrestling.
Yamashita, One of Kano's Shitenno and later Kodokan 10th Dan. Toured the
US as part of a Japanese Cultural Mission.
> And Barton-Wright would promote
>his art "Bartitsu" by having a Judoka who worked with him take on
>wrestlers.
Yukio Tani later technical director of the Budokwai.
> He didn't loose many bouts.
Tani fell out with Barton-Wright over money and struck out on his own.
Eventually Barton-Wright brought in Taro Miyake who gave Tani his first
public defeat. Miyake later joined Tani and Koizumi at the Budokwai.
--
Mike Ozanne
Mike Ozanne
writes
>The mythos in Java is that the indigenes learned western boxing and
>taught kicking to the sailors/traders community through ports like
>Betawi (Djakarta) as early as the mid-Seventeenth Century. The
>'Dutch', at that time, included some of Northern France, and so you
>get names like 'de Thouars' ('of Thiers') arriving very early in the
>contact history, with a constant trade between the countries
>thereafter.
More a case that large numbers of Huguenots fleeing persecution found
refuge in Holland and many re-emigrated through the holdings of the VOC.
--
Mike Ozanne
Neil Gendzwill
> The highest level of Japanese swordsmanship is daisho, (long-short),
> one sword in each hand. Katana in right, wakizashi in left, usually.
Say what? The vast majority of koryu teach single sword style, mostly
two handed techniques. One hand is required for the draw, after that
it's two. Even niten ichi ryu has mostly itto kata, with some nitto.
High level itto kendoka routinely beat nito kendoka. Nito requires
a certain body type and a certain mental set, it's not for everybody.
Itto practisioners say that while the extra weapon is an advantage,
having to put your mind (energy/ki whatever term you wish) into two
blades is a disadvantage that can be exploited.
Having fought a nito guy myself, I can say that I just get creamed.
Mind you, this guy is Canadian national team and any of those guys
mop the floor with me.
> As for speed and screaming 'ha yah', you should visit an iaido class
> someday. The entire basis of the form is economy of movement,
> and putting any attacker at a deadly disadvantage. It's FAST
> when it's done at speed. How fast, well, while your average saber
> rattler is fumbling with his saber trying to get it out of the scabbard without
> cutting himself or breaking the blade off, a proficient practicioner of
> the Japanese art will draw, strike twice, sling the blood off the blade,
> return it to the scabbard, and neatly sidestep the falling limbs before
> returning to his tea ceremony.
Maybe *you* should visit a iaido class sometime. They mostly
practice slow and deliberate. Even if they draw and cut fast, they don't
sheath fast, what's the point? Noto is usually pretty slow, you're watching
to make sure the other guy is really dead and there's nobody else to kill.
> Here, check this out:
>
> http://www.bugei.com/video/Bugei.mpg
It's OK cutting, but by kendo/fencing standards he's a slug.
Personally, I'd be plenty nervous about facing a decent sabreur. They have
lots of skill at sticking long pointy things into people, skill that
oddly enough doesn't seem to pay any attention to its national origin.
Neil
Chris Johnson
Neil Gendzwill wrote:
>
>
>
> Maybe *you* should visit a iaido class sometime. They mostly
> practice slow and deliberate. Even if they draw and cut fast, they don't
> sheath fast, what's the point? Noto is usually pretty slow, you're watching
> to make sure the other guy is really dead and there's nobody else to kill.
>
I DO visit one...every week as a student. Yes, it's all very slow and
deliberate, particularly noto, but when demonstrations are done by the
instructors, they show that they can maintain control while moving MUCH
faster.
> > Here, check this out:
> >
> > http://www.bugei.com/video/Bugei.mpg
>
> It's OK cutting, but by kendo/fencing standards he's a slug.
>
> Personally, I'd be plenty nervous about facing a decent sabreur. They have
> lots of skill at sticking long pointy things into people, skill that
> oddly enough doesn't seem to pay any attention to its national origin.
There's no doubt that a lighter weapon can be wielded more rapidly, and
a fencing foil or lightweight saber is an example of this, but then I have
to wonder about the tradeoff of damage ability vs. speed. Granted, a good
saber is a good cutting instrument as well, but compared to a very light
stabbing instrument like a French foil, which presents mostly a puncture
hazard, I'd rather have the still respectable speed capacity and awesome
cutting ability of a nicely sized and balanced nihonto. It's a nice
balance between a needle and a sledgehammer/cleaver.
CJ
Richard Lancashire
> There's no doubt that a lighter weapon can be wielded more rapidly, and
> a fencing foil or lightweight saber is an example of this, but then I have
> to wonder about the tradeoff of damage ability vs. speed.
Speed and range. Obviously there are no givens, it would depend on the
tactics and abilities of each swordsman. The samurai would have to get
in range, the sabreur would have to keep his line.
> Granted, a good saber is a good cutting instrument as well,
All sabres are good cutting instruments, it's just as much a part of
the weapon as the stabbing capability. It's just the stabbing part
often gets there first... :)
> but compared to a very light
> stabbing instrument like a French foil, which presents mostly a puncture
> hazard, I'd rather have the still respectable speed capacity and awesome
> cutting ability of a nicely sized and balanced nihonto. It's a nice
> balance between a needle and a sledgehammer/cleaver.
I agree, so would I; although the cleaver might be fun for a while...
:P
The foil is a heavily stylised weapon that was not designed for battle
; on the other hand, a sabre thrust is a lot less than a pinprick.
Cheers
Rich
Weirdwolf
Richard Lancashire <rlanc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ad6f59.02081...@posting.google.com...
> Chris Johnson <cmjo...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:<3D599E62...@cfl.rr.com>...
>
> > There's no doubt that a lighter weapon can be wielded more rapidly, and
> > a fencing foil or lightweight saber is an example of this, but then I
have
> > to wonder about the tradeoff of damage ability vs. speed.
>
> Speed and range. Obviously there are no givens, it would depend on the
> tactics and abilities of each swordsman. The samurai would have to get
> in range, the sabreur would have to keep his line.
>
> > Granted, a good saber is a good cutting instrument as well,
>
> All sabres are good cutting instruments, it's just as much a part of
> the weapon as the stabbing capability. It's just the stabbing part
> often gets there first... :)
one of the ways I used to pick up most of my points.
> > but compared to a very light
> > stabbing instrument like a French foil, which presents mostly a
puncture
> > hazard, I'd rather have the still respectable speed capacity and
awesome
> > cutting ability of a nicely sized and balanced nihonto. It's a nice
> > balance between a needle and a sledgehammer/cleaver.
>
> I agree, so would I; although the cleaver might be fun for a while...
> :P
> The foil is a heavily stylised weapon that was not designed for battle
> ; on the other hand, a sabre thrust is a lot less than a pinprick.
>
Yep, I have the scars to prove it one where a foil broke and went straight
into my leg bouncing back of the bone and one where a sabre tip went
straight through the two layers of cloth I was wearing, (one a canvas type
jacket and into the lower part of my bicep.) penetrating quite deeply.
Believe me they may act like toy weapons by the can cause some serious pain.
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Chris Johnson
Richard Lancashire wrote:
> It's a nice
> > balance between a needle and a sledgehammer/cleaver.
>
> I agree, so would I; although the cleaver might be fun for a while...
> :P
>
Imagine a MAUL being used as a weapon...you know,
the sledgehammer head-sized wedge on a stick (often an iron bar)
that tapers to a sharp edge and weighs maybe 12 pounds...?!?
They're used for splitting logs in one whack. Admittedly,
it'd be at a speed disadvantage, but should it connect....
"Cleanup, aisles four, five, and six!"
CJ
Kirk Lawson
> There's no doubt that a lighter weapon can be wielded more rapidly, and
> a fencing foil or lightweight saber is an example of this, but then I have
> to wonder about the tradeoff of damage ability vs. speed.
Don't confuse a "foil" with a Rapier or a Smallsword, neither confuse a
Fencing Sabre with a functional Sabre. The average weight of a
functional sabre is somewhere around 1.5 lbs. The average weight of a
Katana is somewhere around 2.5 lbs.
> Granted, a good
> saber is a good cutting instrument as well,
The curve of the sabre blade indicates a design for slashing and
cutting. The pronounced point and weight of most functional Sabres
indicates a dual thrusting capacity. Make no mistake though, most
period military Sabre manuals that I've seen emphasize the cuts.
Any Sabre experts care to comment? I admit to only having seen 3 or 4
"functional" Sabre manuals. Badger? Richard?
> but compared to a very light
> stabbing instrument like a French foil, which presents mostly a puncture
> hazard,
The Smallsword?
> I'd rather have the still respectable speed capacity and awesome
> cutting ability of a nicely sized and balanced nihonto. It's a nice
> balance between a needle and a sledgehammer/cleaver.
Don't mistake European weapons for being "cleavers." They have a great
deal of finess.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
Kirk Lawson
> > It's been suggested that the 10xx steels are the closest cousins of the
> > tamahagane lacking only the silicon but including instead another
> > trace. Further, some swiss steels do include the silicon.
>
> There you go. I knew somebody out there would know this stuff... So you
> can tell that Sleepy guy to boil his head when he says nobody respects
> your opinion. :-)
Here's a document that I should have posted the first time around. I
only recently re-found it.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of
martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle
surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
===========================================
Metallurgical Analysis - Grades of Steel
http://www.angelic.org/highlander/metallurgy/grades.html
By WarAngel, with special thanks to Motoyasu and Bob Engnath
At last, here is a guide to what steel is good and what is bad, and
the inherent strengths and weaknesses and properties of each! I've
hunted high and low for this information, knowing nothing about
different grades of steel that would make sense in a swords context.
And now, here you have it!
Caution on Marketing Language
Please be careful when shopping with sword smiths. Some use anything
from magic and mysticism to all kinds of marketing hype. We've heard
every manner of hogwash under the sun.
Some claim they use a particular tool steel because it's used to cut
through other steels. Sounds great when you're marketing swords.
Others say, "we use spring steel; our steel comes from Mercedes truck
springs. If it's good for a two-ton truck, it's good for a sword."
Technically this is true. But rather than get brand new 5160, some
third world countries actually get them tank springs and try to forge
them. Improper heat treatment results in the "memory" of the original
shape being retained in the steel, which can further result in
microcrystaline fractures. What this means to you is this: research
the totality of that smith's smithing process, or you will pay dearly.
One smith sells his "live warblades" for $6,000. Word has it that some
customers find they crack easily!
And finally, who could resist web pages that have all kinds of
metallurgical baloney such as "secret steel" or "steel of the Knights
Templar" or "our blades function as one crystal" and "edge packing of
the edges" and the occurence of an "electromagnetic hum" that can be
"felt" - the appearance of "magic."
Twentieth century metallugy is a science. Most non-swordsmiths buy
into anything on a website. A lot of it is inaccurate and misleading.
There is no such thing as an indestructable sword or indestructable
sword steel. Even those websites that claim secret recipies and
magical properties are reported to us whereupon customers claim
anything from cracked blades to foul tempered business owners!
Grades of Steel
Traditional/Original Japanese Steel - Always the best, this contains
iron, carbon, silicon and many various trace elements. Approx.
0.6-0.7% carbon. One modern smelter in Japan that was used during
World War II provides steel of the following composition: 0.04%
molybdenum, 0.05% tungsten, 0.02% titanium, 1.54% copper, 0.11%
manganese, and a few other traces, a varying amount of silicon (due to
the sand - amount depends on sand/ore ratio in a particular load),
between 0.1% and 3% carbon and the balance being iron. The presence of
silicon increases structural strength as well as improving flexibility
characteristics.
AISI/American 1050/10xx - A good choice! While not identical to
medieval Japanese steel, this plain carbon steel is the closest we
have today. AISI 10xx steel contains iron, manganese and carbon, thus
differing slightly from traditional steel. AISI 1065 maybe closer in
carbon content to Traditional than 1050, but 1050 is tougher steel,
and compensates somewhat for the lack of silicon in the steel (silicon
improves strength and flexibilty). The xx in 10xx indicates the
percentage of carbon, where 1050 has .50% carbon, and 1070 has .70%
carbon, etc. The higher the carbon content, the harder the steel. The
lower the carbon content, the more tough the steel is. Too hard, and
the blade can shatter upon impact. Too soft, and it can easily be cut
through. Many ask, "Which is the best for swords?" However, it's all
in the heat-treating. But generally, you want a low-alloy steel for
your sword. The biggest difference between 10xx and traditional
Japanese steel tamahagane is the presence of manganese in 10xx but
also the lack of silicon.
AISI/American 5160 - a low Chromium (0.7%) alloy tool steel, it also
contains 0.2% silicon, and is considered widely to be a superior steel
for swords in general, particularly European style swords, because it
is so tough. Although this steel contains chromium, there is not
enough to make it stainless (More than 13% is required to make steel
"stainless". 440C contains 16-18% chromium) or to affect the strength
of the steel. This steel has a slightly richer alloy mix than the AISI
10xx series. Some Malaysian manufacturers use this steel, but do a
poor job with heat-treatment so the resulting blade is inferior.
However, this inferiority is the fault of the sword-maker and not the
steel itself! The steel's chromium content is enough to make it
extremely difficult to create a hamon (temper line). Also, 5160 is a
bit more corrosion resistant than 10xx when it comes to fingerprint
oils' acidity. You could touch it without fear of instant rusting, but
clean your sword still before resheathing it.
A2 Tool Steel - The "A" of "A2" means "Air Hardening" which means it
can be cooled with an air blast ("slow cooling") rather than being
quenched in water or oil ("fast cooling") A2 is a chromium tool steel,
rated for high toughness and in a knife, very good edge holding
potential. The chromium content is not enough to make the steel
"stainless" or to weaken the grain boundaries significantly (like 420
and 440 Stainless). Despite its excellent properties, for use in a
Japanese style blade, it cannot be clay treated (for differential
hardening) in the traditional manner - which gives the katana its
superiority, as traditional blades are fast cooled instead, and clay
does not work to prevent hardening of the blade's back in cooling A2.
Because of this, you generally cannot create a hamon (temper line)
with A2. Phill Hartsfield however, uses A2 and is the only smith in
the world able to create a temper on this steel with a "secret"
process (some have observed from personal experimentation that running
an oxy-acetaline torch does the job, but this really compromises the
toughness of the edge due to this air-hardening steel's uneven
hardening). In short, A2 will make a good sword steel. Swordmaker Tom
Maringer uses D2 in his fantasy and Japanese-style swords. We have
received reports of various A2 swordblades that have been returned to
some smiths, suffering cracks. A lower-alloy high carbon steel may
perform better. Generally, the marketing pitch on A2 swords is that
"it's a tool steel that cuts through other steels, so it's good for a
sword."
D2 Tool Steel - This is a good chrome-vanadium tool steel; it has
12.5% chromium which is not enough to make it stainless, but which in
other steels, would be enough to rule it out as a sword steel.
However, D2 also has vanadium and tungsten which act as grain refiners
and counteract some of the weakening effects of the chrome. Because of
the addition of molybdenum and some nickel, it is very tough, very
hard (from the tungsten) and holds a good edge (only stellite and
maybe 440V come close in terms of edge holding, but 440V is much more
brittle, and stellite is a cobalt alloy, not a steel). Unfortunately,
like A2 and other high alloy, deep hardening steels, you cannot create
a hamon on it. A sword of this material would be incredibly tough. And
despite its edge holding characteristics on paper, it is said that it
holds a lousy edge and will hold it forever. Like A2, it's an
air-hardening steel and is hard to heat treat properly. If you manage,
then that's great. L6 may be a better choice for high performance
steel (it's not too hamon-friendly either). It is said that D2 may be
a little better than high carbon stainless steels.
S-5 Steel - The "S" stands for "shock-resistant" which comes about as
a result of its 2% silicon content. This might be better than 1050,
but it is more difficult to find, and will most certainly be more
expensive than plain carbon steels.
S-7 Steel - Another shock-resistant tool steel, air hardening, which
means that unless the smith really knows what he's doing, this
finnicky steel is hard to heat treat. Some may use a torch to treat
the edge to give it a Japanese style temper line - such a maneuver
might be okay with knives, but in swords there is almost always a
total loss of control of quality. We've gotten reports of certain
"Angelic" swords cracking. The marketing hype is "Shock resistance" so
everyone things this steel that "cuts through other steels" must
automatically be good for swords. Take into account the totality of
the sword smithing process! Inferior heat treating can result in a
poor steel. S-7 is getting very alloy-rich for use as a
high-performance sword. S-5 might be a better way to go, but it's
pricey.
CK55 Krupp Steel - You've seen it advertized in some of Museum
Replica's catalogs - which earlier Del Tin swords and blades were
forged from. It's the European equivalent of AISI 1055. "C" stands for
"Carbon" and "K" for Krupp - the German company that makes it.
50CRV4 - This is a steel with very small amounts of Vandium and
Chromium. Chromium in higher quantities lends to a steel's "stainless"
properties. However, in 50CRV, there isn't enough to make it
"stainless" - and metallurgically brittle. Thus it makes a good spring
steel. It contains trace amounts of Silicon and Manganese. The tensile
strength of CK55 and CK50 is about 600 N/mm2, while 50CRV4 ranks about
750 N/mm2. (Many thanks to Fulvio Del Tin for this information!)
420, 440A, 440B, 440C, 440V, ATS-34 - Stainless steel. Great for
kitchen knives, folding knives, etc. Sword-makers such as Gladius and
Marto/Martespa of Spain use it a lot. However, they are unsuitable for
swords and swordplay re-enactment, namely because of the weak grain
boundaries caused by the presence of the chromium, which is used as a
grain enhancer and gives it it's "stainless" properties and mirror
finish when polished, but makes it more brittle. Chromium and other
alloying elements like Vanadium, tungsten, etc. can make steels
stainless, fine grained, heat resistant, etc but really add to the
problem because you cannot create a beautiful hamon ("cloud pattern")
line with these steels. The ones that appear on replicas are ugly acid
or electro-etched sine waves! NOTE: Some rip-off companies only put
"440 STAINLESS STEEL" on their products, but neglect to say whether
it's 440A, B, or C. Since 440C is the most qualitative of the lot,
they just say "440" and lean on the popularity of 440C, which is
dishonest.
CPM420V Stainless Steel - Made by the Crucible Materials Corporation
as an upgrade for CPM440V, this high alloy (20 percent) stainless
steel was developed originally as a high-wear steel for wear and
corrosion resistance (on par with most other popular stainless knife
steels). For a knife blade, this steel has good things going for it.
It has good edge holding capabilities (you can make a very aggressive
edge on blades made of CPM440V), howbeit you'll find some ductility
and pliability with this steel. On the downside, it's difficult to get
a decent finish on it due to its high alloy content. It's an excellent
steel but not a workhorse like D2, 51200 (used for ball bearings),
440C, and 154CM/ATS34 (a modification of 440C). However, knifemakers
find CPM440V blades outcut all other steels hands down.
420J2 Stainless Steel - Again, just because it's "100% pure Stainless
Steel" doesn't mean it's all that great. 420 Stainless Steel could
normally produce a fair wallhanger sword. However, 420J2 has very
little carbon content, so the Rockwell hardness won't be higher than
53 Rockwells. Even though many Marto and Martespa products fall into
this range - and the spines (not edges) of Japanese swords are in this
range - the unfortunate fact that 420J2 swords are so quickly churned
out by these rip-off overseas companies that they've been
independently rated at a mere 45 Rockwells! That means that a Marto
wallhanger could cut through it! So why do these companies use 420J2
for their swords? First off, it's extremely easy to grind - almost
like butter. But because they can grind ten swords to shape in the
same time it takes to make, say, a Marto, the fact is that their greed
for money exceeds the importance to them that their swords cannot hold
an edge after going through cardboard a few times! Think of 420J2 as
the stainless equivalent of mild steel - with very low carbon content
and thus will not harden.
High Carbon Steel / High Carbon Spring Steel - They may use words like
"Spring Steel" or "Live Steel" in their sales pitch. Spring Steel is a
term that refers to any member of a group of steels that various types
of springs are usually made out of (e.g, car springs are commonly made
of 5160, but they can also be 1065). "Live Steel" is another euphemism
for "plain carbon steel" (i.e., it can refer to any of 1050, 1065,
5160, CK55 or any plain carbon or low alloy steel) used by one
mail-order/web company. Because these are not stainless, swords made
of these materials do require oiling to prevent rusting. You may want
to keep Iberia swords outside of their scabbards to avoid moisture
damage and corrosion from chemicals used to treat the leather. Their
high carbon spring steel is from the Philippines and comes from
automobile springs (typically 5160), and can flex somewhat and return
true. The high carbon steel used in Indian swords is similar to 1065.
But, watch out! Even though many Indian, Filipino and Malaysian
companies use superior steel, they put it through very poor
heat-treating, which results in an inferior blade! In terms of "bang
for the buck" you're getting an okay sword, but I wouldn't bet my life
on an Indian, Filipino or Malaysian blade due to low-quality
tempering.
Damascus Steel - Damascus is interesting. The original Damascus was a
crucible steel with an extremely high carbon content. When forged into
a blade, the carbides in the steel formed into a pattern that was
visible on the surface of the steel. This material is also called
"Wootz" or "Bulat". What most people think of today when they hear the
word "Damascus" is actually pattern-welded damascus. Now this steel is
composed of many layers of high and low carbon steel, and when etched,
the high and low carbon steels are attacked at different rates by the
acid, resulting in a visible pattern. Pattern-welded steels have
existed since man began working with iron and steel (the Vikings made
many pattern welded blades, however the technique fell into disuse
until after the Crusades, when the smiths attempted to re-create the
appearance of Wootz blades brought back by the knights by pattern
welding steels).
Now, regarding modern (or pattern-welded) damascus in a Japanese-style
sword, Atlanta Cutlery probably kinda inspired this ever since they
began selling a full tang samurai damascus blade, at the request of
many customers. However, this blade was produced by Windlass
Steelcraft and was done improperly! It suffers from a condition known
as "carbon migration" which means that all the carbon from the high
carbon layers has gone into the low carbon layers, and the overall
carbon content is now too low and the blade is unhardenable. It is
very soft and weak and will not stand a chance against a
well-constructed blade.
Rock Da House
> Jason Steiner wrote:
>
> > Spiral Terrapins <dnatu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Surely all cultures developed highy efficient methods of maiming
> > > and killing people but why did Asians take this to new heights?
> > >
> > > In other words, why weren't Venetians doing the flying round-house
> > > kick against Florentines?
> >
> > Because Venetians had swords, and later, guns.
> >
> > Europeans developed very sophisticated martial arts techniques,
> > but because the mass of the population wasn't disarmed as they
> > were in many Asian countries, their focus was on armed martial
> > arts.
> >
> > jason
> >
>
> Personally, I think it's because the Japanese simply had WAAY too
> much spare time on their hands!
>
The martial arts in Asia started in China (the Shaolin Temple). It
made it eventually made it's way into Japan. Karate was developed by
Okinawans because they weren't allowed to have weapons by Japanese
laws.
>
> But seriously, in Japan, for several hundred years there was ALWAYS
> some fighting going on somewhere. One warlord against another,
> nonstop. And when you're always on a war footing, you tend to get
> pretty good at it. Practice makes perfect!
>
There has been fighting all over the world for hundreds of years, not
just in Japan.
Rock Da House
> "Robin L. Gooch" <ros...@ih2000.net> wrote in message
> news:ul61ol4...@corp.supernews.com...
> > Primitive Asian kicking looked alot like purring and their hand strikes
> > looked like boxing. Nowdays "karate" and other arts are just composites
> made
> > up of boxing, collar-n-elbow, zipota, savate etc. There is NOTHING in
> > traditional Asian martial arts that can't also be found in Western arts.
> >
>
> Including the flying round house kick?
> The nun chaku?
Nunchaku's were an Okinawan weapon, but I think it originated in China
in a longer form.
Rock Da House
> On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:48:21 GMT, dawa...@ix.netcom.com (Don Wagner)
> wrote:
>
> >eatit <ea...@eatitraw.com> wrote:
> >>Bull. Chin Na or Shuai Jiao. Chinese wrestling doesn't get the
> >>attention other aspects do. But they are just as complex, if not more
> >>so, as western wrestling
> >
> >Complexity doesn't equal useful and effective application.
> >--Don--
> >Let me show you how the guards used to do it...
>
>
> Eastern or western martial arts?
>
> Fact is, jiu jitsu stomped all over wrestling back in the day. What
> everyone practices and what's popular today is just a practical
> variation of jiu jitsu. However, the fundamentals are the same,
> choking, armbars, weight counterbalance, etc..
The best Asian counterpart to western Wrestling is Judo.
>
> Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
Judo, Jiu jistu, and Aikido, while using similar techniques as
Wrestling (the pinning, choke holds, etc.. that you mention), went
beyond that. They also employ pressure points, punching and kicking.
They're not just for sport - they are full-fledged fighting
techniques.
>
> The truth is if asian martial arts were never introduced most likely
> western style boxing or wrestling would be considered the "ultimate
> fighting."
I think the allure of Asian martial arts is the effectiveness of the
fighting techniques. For example, a small person, with the right
martial art technique, could still have an advantage over a larger
opponent. This wouldn't be the case with straight boxing.
>
> To say that asian martial arts isn't practical is
> laughable..considering that everyone practices a variation of it these
> days for NHB tournaments.
Martial arts also make one healthier when practised properly. It was
the fusion of yoga-like techniques from India and Chinese fighting
styles. That's why doing techniques like Tai Chi are good for you and
don't require a strenuous workout like, say, western boxing or
wrestling.
Badger Jones
House) wrote:
>The martial arts in Asia started in China (the Shaolin Temple). It
>made it eventually made it's way into Japan. Karate was developed by
>Okinawans because they weren't allowed to have weapons by Japanese
>laws.
Gosh, where to start? The Shaolin Temple was not the birthplace of
Chinese martial arts, and certainly not Asian martial arts. Certainly
it holds a high place in the history of CMA, but t'ain't the
originator.
As for Shaolin arts in Japan, you need to be specific. Some southern
Shaolin was transplanted, very little if any from the north.
The whole Okinawan weapons confiscation thang has been pretty much
proven to be a misinterpretation of the historical records, and a
wonderful method to get contemporary practitioners to try and fit
weapons like the sai, rochin/timbe, and suruchin into the "farm
implements" theory.
Badger Jones
www.cyberus.ca/~badger
"I've come the conclusion that no story cannot be improved upon with a good
cratering." - Ted MacKinnon
Badger Jones
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>The curve of the sabre blade indicates a design for slashing and
>cutting. The pronounced point and weight of most functional Sabres
>indicates a dual thrusting capacity. Make no mistake though, most
>period military Sabre manuals that I've seen emphasize the cuts.
>
>Any Sabre experts care to comment? I admit to only having seen 3 or 4
>"functional" Sabre manuals. Badger? Richard?
Depends on which sabre you are referring to. The British at one point
or another used a heavy cavalry sabre which was straight, intended to
be used on the charge à la the lance. Meanwhile, the light cavalry
used pretty much exclusively the slashing sabre - the pinnacle of
development being the one used in the 1790's.
Hell, the Roman cavalry used the straight spatha.
>> but compared to a very light
>> stabbing instrument like a French foil, which presents mostly a puncture
>> hazard,
>
>The Smallsword?
My favourite dueling sword was the Koenigsmark (sp?), the one with the
very wide section at the strong, tapering very quickly to a small
sword profile at the half-strong.
Badger Jones
House) wrote:
>> The nun chaku?
>
>Nunchaku's were an Okinawan weapon, but I think it originated in China
>in a longer form.
China had the longer version, usually referred to as a sweeper, but
the short version existed too, primarily in the southern regions.
Occasionally it was paired for use with the sabre.
Flail weapons are found in just about every region on the planet, so
it would be difficult to pinpoint the Chinese as the originators.
Chris Johnson
Kirk Lawson wrote:
>
> ===========================================
>
> Metallurgical Analysis - Grades of Steel
> http://www.angelic.org/highlander/metallurgy/grades.html
>
(heap big snip here)
I'm a little surprised that didn't mention Assab K-120 Swedish
powdered steel, which has gained a fair amount of popularity
with many smiths and appreciators. While I don't know all the
specifics of it, it definitely can show a hamon and it has very
good ability to both take and hold an edge. Some of the Paul Chen
(Chen Po, Hanwei Forge) blades are made of this steel, and
depending on model, some are forged and folded. I have one of
their swords, the Orchid model (1207-GT), and I had to immediately
give it a proper Japanese style polish because it was dull when it
arrived, and I bought it for iaito and tameshigiri so it was necessary
to make it sharp. It responds to the polishing process generally
like a blade made of traditional Japanese tamahagane, and requires
only a certain amount of technique adjustment to get the desired
visual effects. However, I do note that in my particular blade,
there is a complete absence of habuchi. Habuchi is the misty area that
defines the hamon itself, and is composed of (usually) very fine
crystals of martensite at the boundary layer between hardened edge
steel and unhardened back steel. This does NOT mean that there
is no hamon...there definitely is one, but this particular effect
is either invisible or so subtle that I can't bring it up at all
with my limited polishing skills. But there is no doubt that other
activities are present and the edge is certainly hardened while
the upper parts of the blade are not.
I do note that the jihada is also very hard to bring up as well.
Jihada is the visible pattern formed by the layered, forged
construction method. It's usually one of the last activities to
show up in polishing, but sometimes it's harder to reveal than
on other blades.
I don't know if these irregularities are the result of the
metallurgy or improper heat treatment, but I suspect that it's
due to the metallurgy since the heat treatment seems to be quite
uniform in quality.
CJ
Blanche Nonken
> Phill Hartsfield however, uses A2 and is the only smith in
> the world able to create a temper on this steel with a "secret"
> process
Phill is an *awesome* man. If any of you live in or near Southern
California, it's worth it to take a drive to Garden Grove to his "A Cut
Above" knife shop. Directory Assistance should provide his number; call
ahead 'cause he's got really weird hours.
Matthew Weigel
>> Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
>
>Judo, Jiu jistu, and Aikido, while using similar techniques as
>Wrestling (the pinning, choke holds, etc.. that you mention), went
>beyond that. They also employ pressure points, punching and kicking.
What? Now, I've seen an aikidoka or two that would *talk* about
pressure points, but that's the most knowledge I've seen any of those
styles demonstrate; I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
>I think the allure of Asian martial arts is the effectiveness of the
>fighting techniques. For example, a small person, with the right
>martial art technique, could still have an advantage over a larger
>opponent. This wouldn't be the case with straight boxing.
1) a small person, with the right martial art technique, is still
probably going to get their ass stomped in 90% of cases. I mean, you
see weight divisions in (full contact) karate tournaments, too.
2) boxing ain't the only western martial art, and a good cross puts a
fella in good stead no matter his size.
>Martial arts also make one healthier when practised properly.
So does taebo. Or at least they make the same claim...
>It was the fusion of yoga-like techniques from India and Chinese
>fighting styles.
That hardly impacted ALL Asian martial arts; even "very many" is up for
debate.
>That's why doing techniques like Tai Chi are good for you and don't
>require a strenuous workout like, say, western boxing or wrestling.
Aside from the debate about brain damage <g>, the strenuous workout in
boxing or wrestling *is* good for you.
Daniel Winsor - HESE
>
>>That's why doing techniques like Tai Chi are good for you and don't
>>require a strenuous workout like, say, western boxing or wrestling.
>
>Aside from the debate about brain damage <g>, the strenuous workout in
>boxing or wrestling *is* good for you.
The same callback in two different threads in one day. Very nice.
---
Dan Winsor
Dave Mullett
> Here's a document that I should have posted the first time around. I
> only recently re-found it.
Thanks for posting this. Fascinating stuff.
--
"People are not stupid. There are just certain things that they do not think
about. And if you don't think about those things, then it doesn't matter
whether you are a genius or a moron. " - Thomas Sowell
Storys
>
> that tapers to a sharp edge and weighs maybe 12 pounds...?!?
> They're used for splitting logs in one whack. Admittedly,
> it'd be at a speed disadvantage, but should it connect....
>
Big problems too if the match goes on for more than a couple of seconds.
There's a good reason why those battle axes were as small as they were.
..................Tom.....................
Storys
"Badger Jones" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
news:3d5a7663...@news.storm.ca...
> On 14 Aug 2002 08:07:39 -0700, funkay...@hotmail.com (Rock Da
> House) wrote:
>
> >The martial arts in Asia started in China (the Shaolin Temple). It
> >made it eventually made it's way into Japan. Karate was developed by
> >Okinawans because they weren't allowed to have weapons by Japanese
> >laws.
>
> Gosh, where to start?
At the beginning?? ;-)
The Shaolin Temple was not the birthplace of
> Chinese martial arts, and certainly not Asian martial arts. Certainly
> it holds a high place in the history of CMA, but t'ain't the
> originator.
>
Question: Do you think Badger, that an actual origin can be determined? If
it can be done do you think that such is needed or wise? Also how about the
idea that many peoples developed the same sort of things independantly of
each other? From our point in time how in the world are we to determine if
the Mongols did something first or if the Okinawans did it first or if
someone else did it? Lotsa questions I know but I don't have any good
answers myself, sorry.
..............Tom...................
Dave Mullett
> Gosh, where to start? The Shaolin Temple was not the birthplace of
> Chinese martial arts, and certainly not Asian martial arts. Certainly
> it holds a high place in the history of CMA, but t'ain't the
> originator.
I always thought that martial arts originating at the Shaolin temple was
about as likely as the fact that tea was discovered personally by one of
China's emperors. Or, for that matter, that general Kwan's original kwando
weighed in at around 100 pounds.
> The whole Okinawan weapons confiscation thang has been pretty much
> proven to be a misinterpretation of the historical records, and a
> wonderful method to get contemporary practitioners to try and fit
> weapons like the sai, rochin/timbe, and suruchin into the "farm
> implements" theory.
Care to expand on this, or (better yet) do you have any links to a
discussion? I've never even heard the "farm implements" theory questioned.
What is the conflicting info?
Badger Jones
<sto...@delete.execulink.com> wrote:
>
>"Badger Jones" <young_...@hotmail.REEEMOVEcom> wrote in message
>news:3d5a7663...@news.storm.ca...
>> On 14 Aug 2002 08:07:39 -0700, funkay...@hotmail.com (Rock Da
>> House) wrote:
>>
>> >The martial arts in Asia started in China (the Shaolin Temple). It
>> >made it eventually made it's way into Japan. Karate was developed by
>> >Okinawans because they weren't allowed to have weapons by Japanese
>> >laws.
>>
>> Gosh, where to start?
>
>At the beginning?? ;-)
Yes, a very fine place to start. Cue "Sound of Music" soundtrack.
> The Shaolin Temple was not the birthplace of
>> Chinese martial arts, and certainly not Asian martial arts. Certainly
>> it holds a high place in the history of CMA, but t'ain't the
>> originator.
>
>Question: Do you think Badger, that an actual origin can be determined?
Nope. Assuming records could have survived, doubtful any were ever
made in the first place. From surviving records, we can place many
styles before Shaolin, but which was the "original"? Dunno.
>If
>it can be done do you think that such is needed or wise?
Other than some sort of ego thing, not necessary. In the Shaolin
circles, everybody is hyped up on trying to say theirs is the original
Shaolin. Yeah, like I want to practice the beta version.
>Also how about the
>idea that many peoples developed the same sort of things independantly of
>each other?
Sure - It's like the joke: how many martial artists does it take to
screw in a lightbulb? Five. One to screw it in and four to say "we
have that technique too, but we do it a little differently."
>From our point in time how in the world are we to determine if
>the Mongols did something first or if the Okinawans did it first or if
>someone else did it? Lotsa questions I know but I don't have any good
>answers myself, sorry.
In many cases there is some surviving history - Miyagi learning from
the Fukien White Crane guys f'rinstance. "First" is a tough call
typically.
Matthew Weigel
>Care to expand on this, or (better yet) do you have any links to a
>discussion? I've never even heard the "farm implements" theory questioned.
>What is the conflicting info?
Errr... they're not farming implements?
On groups.google.com, try "group:rec.martial-arts farm tool implement"
does a good job; for particular weapons, "<weapon> farm" handles it
well.
Some run-down:
sai: metal too scarce, well-established as weapon outside
Okinawa before debut in Okinawa
nunchaku: most cultures have flails and grain threshers
too, yet no causal link is established for *them* -
why Okinawa?
tonfa/tuifa: handle on a milling stone? why would they use
that instead of just any other ol' stick they had
around? where's the milling stone with a tonfa hole?
bo: what possible farming use?
kama: woohoo! you found *one* that's a farming implement...
Chas
> Big problems too if the match goes on for more than a couple of seconds.
The guys with the O-No (the huge battle ax) and the big mauls were
used for battering down defenses- they might have used them for
interpersonal combat, but, less usually.
> There's a good reason why those battle axes were as small as they were.
There are some very heavy weapons that were used in combat- tetsubo
(iron bar) must have weighed ten pounds or more and would bring down
cavalry horses. It would shatter a sword and crush armor, beat down
light walls and woodwork defenses.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403
ch...@kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://chasclements.tripod.com/index.htm
Gigantic A-Hole
including most recently goalie Martin Biron.
They open up on the 10th of October against the Islanders, I think.
Weirdwolf
Gigantic A-Hole <G...@pecbell.com> wrote in message
news:5d0bf2be.02081...@posting.google.com...
> Buffalo's been busy in the off-season; lots of free agent signings,
> including most recently goalie Martin Biron.
>
> They open up on the 10th of October against the Islanders, I think.
again.
Damn Sabres my girlfriend worships Satan.
Ted
--
Bloody hell !
Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers !
Bollocks !
Oh god, I'm English.
Spike BTVS
Matthew Weigel
>The same callback in two different threads in one day. Very nice.
This is me not touching your geek jokes...
:-)
how...@brazee.net
Christopher Moore's >> Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's
Childhood Pal <<
Rock Da House
> On 14 Aug 2002 08:07:39 -0700, funkay...@hotmail.com (Rock Da
> House) wrote:
>
> >The martial arts in Asia started in China (the Shaolin Temple). It
> >made it eventually made it's way into Japan. Karate was developed by
> >Okinawans because they weren't allowed to have weapons by Japanese
> >laws.
>
> Gosh, where to start? The Shaolin Temple was not the birthplace of
> Chinese martial arts, and certainly not Asian martial arts. Certainly
> it holds a high place in the history of CMA, but t'ain't the
> originator.
I suppose not. Maybe I should have been more specific and said
'Shaolin Kung Fu', rather than the martial arts in general. I read on
one website that the nobles practised a form of kung fu as early as
the 3rd century BC.
>
> As for Shaolin arts in Japan, you need to be specific. Some southern
> Shaolin was transplanted, very little if any from the north.
>
> The whole Okinawan weapons confiscation thang has been pretty much
> proven to be a misinterpretation of the historical records, and a
> wonderful method to get contemporary practitioners to try and fit
> weapons like the sai, rochin/timbe, and suruchin into the "farm
> implements" theory.
>
I've looked around on the Net, and the consensus of the true origin of
a number of the Okinawan weapons is divided. Here's an interesting
site:
http://members.tripod.com/~Nunchaku/about_e.htm
This guy says that it was the nobles in Okinawa who had the time to
practise martial arts, not the farmers. But it was the serving
nobles, or policemen, etc..., who started using certain farm
implements as weapons to defend themselves from angry farmers when
they started working the land and fishing to earn more money.
As for the sai, I don't recall ever reading that it was an Okinawan
weapon. I know this sounds hokey, but I've seen Japanese samurai
films, which if I recall correctly, take place in the 16th or 17th
century where the police officers used the sai as so-called 'sword
catchers'.
Rock Da House
> Rock Da House <funkay...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
> >
> >Judo, Jiu jistu, and Aikido, while using similar techniques as
> >Wrestling (the pinning, choke holds, etc.. that you mention), went
> >beyond that. They also employ pressure points, punching and kicking.
>
> What? Now, I've seen an aikidoka or two that would *talk* about
> pressure points, but that's the most knowledge I've seen any of those
> styles demonstrate; I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
> throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
Maybe I over-generalized the punching thing by including aikido. I
saw a book that was made up of fairly old pictures that demonstrated a
few Judo katas that featured punches.
>
> >I think the allure of Asian martial arts is the effectiveness of the
> >fighting techniques. For example, a small person, with the right
> >martial art technique, could still have an advantage over a larger
> >opponent. This wouldn't be the case with straight boxing.
>
> 1) a small person, with the right martial art technique, is still
> probably going to get their ass stomped in 90% of cases. I mean, you
> see weight divisions in (full contact) karate tournaments, too.
With Karate, you're correct. But Aikido might have an advantage. And
I'm not saying a shrimpo of 5 feet in height would be able to kick the
butt of a 6.5 foot person who weighed double his weight. I did read
once that Bolo challenged Bruce Lee to a fight on the set of Enter The
Dragon, and Bruce Lee knocked him flat on his ass. From what I could
see, in the film anyway, Bolo was much bigger than Bruce. Maybe
that's a poor example. Anyway...
>
> 2) boxing ain't the only western martial art, and a good cross puts a
> fella in good stead no matter his size.
Definitely. But I'm guessing that a martial artist would have more
'cunning' in luring the boxer into a position that would make him
vunerable to a good punch. I guess the whole point of being a
successful fighter is being the first one to land a punch rather than
seeing if you can absorb as many as possible.
>
> >Martial arts also make one healthier when practised properly.
>
> So does taebo. Or at least they make the same claim...
TaeBo requires the person to already be in good shape, from what I
understand.
>
> >It was the fusion of yoga-like techniques from India and Chinese
> >fighting styles.
>
> That hardly impacted ALL Asian martial arts; even "very many" is up for
> debate.
Possibly. Since the origins aren't clear, any theory is plausible.
>
> >That's why doing techniques like Tai Chi are good for you and don't
> >require a strenuous workout like, say, western boxing or wrestling.
>
> Aside from the debate about brain damage <g>, the strenuous workout in
> boxing or wrestling *is* good for you.
Does boxing work all the muscle groups that Tai Chi does? I'm not
sure the fighter is required to use as many ranges of motion.
Wrestling is definitely a good workout, but only for young people. I
don't know if an elderly person would reap any health benefits from
it. By strenuous workout, I meant lifting weights and stuff before
the actual practise, but I was thinking more about Tai Chi and it's
benefits to people who aren't in top physical shape...
Richard Lancashire
> Richard Lancashire wrote:
> > I agree, so would I; although the cleaver might be fun for a while...
> Imagine a MAUL being used as a weapon...you know,
> the sledgehammer head-sized wedge on a stick (often an iron bar)
> that tapers to a sharp edge and weighs maybe 12 pounds...?!?
The warhammer was developed with this sort of thing in mind - a big
weight with a puncturing point - to get through armour. It wasn't 12
pounds, mind you; by the time you've brought it back from the
swing-through the war's probably over...
Cheers
Rich
Matthew Weigel
>http://members.tripod.com/~Nunchaku/about_e.htm
>
>This guy says that it was the nobles in Okinawa who had the time to
>practise martial arts, not the farmers. But it was the serving
>nobles, or policemen, etc..., who started using certain farm
>implements as weapons to defend themselves from angry farmers when
>they started working the land and fishing to earn more money.
But he does not say that *nunchaku* was one of these "certain farm
implements."
>As for the sai, I don't recall ever reading that it was an Okinawan
>weapon.
It is (although not indiginous to Okinawa or Japan). It is not one of
the four main "ninja weapons", contrary to what any turtles might have
told you.
;-)
Matthew Weigel
>> What? Now, I've seen an aikidoka or two that would *talk* about
>> pressure points, but that's the most knowledge I've seen any of those
>> styles demonstrate; I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
>> throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
>
>Maybe I over-generalized the punching thing by including aikido. I
>saw a book that was made up of fairly old pictures that demonstrated a
>few Judo katas that featured punches.
Which still doesn't cover pressure points. And regardless of whether
it's "in the kata," it's not practiced with any depth - no punching
bags or makiwara or anything, not much repetition, no use of it against
resisting opponents.
I have never seen an aikidoka or a judoka throw a competent punch they
learned in those arts.
>> 1) a small person, with the right martial art technique, is still
>> probably going to get their ass stomped in 90% of cases. I mean, you
>> see weight divisions in (full contact) karate tournaments, too.
>
>With Karate, you're correct. But Aikido might have an advantage.
Where's the full contact aikido without weight divisions? :-)
>> 2) boxing ain't the only western martial art, and a good cross puts a
>> fella in good stead no matter his size.
>
>Definitely. But I'm guessing that a martial artist would have more
>'cunning' in luring the boxer into a position that would make him
>vunerable to a good punch.
And I'm guessing that most of our evidence points to the well-developed
training regime of boxing putting boxers ahead.
>I guess the whole point of being a successful fighter is being the
>first one to land a punch rather than seeing if you can absorb as many
>as possible.
The whole point of martial arts is winning; different martial arts have
different views on how to do that, and making a priori arguments about
which strategies are better isn't very useful. Much better to wait and
see how the strategies perform...
>> So does taebo. Or at least they make the same claim...
>
>TaeBo requires the person to already be in good shape, from what I
>understand.
Not according to the commercials <g>
>Does boxing work all the muscle groups that Tai Chi does?
I'm not sure. Legs, arms, torso, neck, cardiovascular system...
>Wrestling is definitely a good workout, but only for young people.
Tell that to the 40+ and 60+ guys I work out with.
>I don't know if an elderly person would reap any health benefits from
>it. By strenuous workout, I meant lifting weights and stuff before
>the actual practise, but I was thinking more about Tai Chi and it's
>benefits to people who aren't in top physical shape...
Lifting weights also provides benefits to people not in top physical
shape, including things like fighting osteoporosis.
But really, the killer in wrestling and boxing is the competition; you
can avoid that and go a bit easier well into old age.
Kirk Lawson
The Flail in in it's various forms has shown up as a weapon in every
just about every culture with agriculture.
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Kirk Lawson
>
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:19:28 -0400, Kirk Lawson
> <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>
> >The curve of the sabre blade indicates a design for slashing and
> >cutting. The pronounced point and weight of most functional Sabres
> >indicates a dual thrusting capacity. Make no mistake though, most
> >period military Sabre manuals that I've seen emphasize the cuts.
> >
> >Any Sabre experts care to comment? I admit to only having seen 3 or 4
> >"functional" Sabre manuals. Badger? Richard?
>
> Depends on which sabre you are referring to.
Good point.
Kirk Lawson
> I'm a little surprised that didn't mention Assab K-120 Swedish
> powdered steel, which has gained a fair amount of popularity
> with many smiths and appreciators.
Yeah. It's gained a definite following, though I can't say with any
authority whether it's a large or small following. Still you do hear of
it from time to time.
> I do note that the jihada is also very hard to bring up as well.
> Jihada is the visible pattern formed by the layered, forged
> construction method. It's usually one of the last activities to
> show up in polishing, but sometimes it's harder to reveal than
> on other blades.
Hmmm... I was under the impression that the Jihada was more due to the
structure of the steel rather then any "layers" being evident. I forget
where I read that, probably in the Japanese Sword Arts FAQ. Oh well.
> I don't know if these irregularities are the result of the
> metallurgy or improper heat treatment, but I suspect that it's
> due to the metallurgy since the heat treatment seems to be quite
> uniform in quality.
Perhaps a combination of the two. Note that it is quite possible to
have differential tempering without creating a hamon, even in steel
capable of showing one.
Kirk Lawson
>
> Rock Da House <funkay...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Wrestling was mainly pinning, choking, sport submission.
> >
> >Judo, Jiu jistu, and Aikido, while using similar techniques as
> >Wrestling (the pinning, choke holds, etc.. that you mention), went
> >beyond that. They also employ pressure points, punching and kicking.
>
> What? Now, I've seen an aikidoka or two that would *talk* about
> pressure points, but that's the most knowledge I've seen any of those
> styles demonstrate;
A (very) few know most pressure points and most know a very few pressure
points. I like one or two for basic SD, but that's about it personally.
> I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
> throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
This is one of my complaints. Even though Ueshiba is quoted from time
to time that "90% of Aikido is atemi," basic striking techniques are so
very often not taught or just left out entirely.
There are a few Aikido dojos that do teach striking.
> the strenuous workout in boxing or wrestling *is* good for you.
I hear there's some debate over Brain Damage...
Weirdwolf
Kirk Lawson <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote in message
news:3D5B91E9...@heapy.com...
> Badger Jones wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:19:28 -0400, Kirk Lawson
> > <NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
> >
> > >The curve of the sabre blade indicates a design for slashing and
> > >cutting. The pronounced point and weight of most functional Sabres
> > >indicates a dual thrusting capacity. Make no mistake though, most
> > >period military Sabre manuals that I've seen emphasize the cuts.
> > >
> > >Any Sabre experts care to comment? I admit to only having seen 3 or 4
> > >"functional" Sabre manuals. Badger? Richard?
> >
> > Depends on which sabre you are referring to.
>
> Good point.
>
momentum going and get lot's of "flowing" cuts, the weight of a good sabre
really helps to do this, with a modern (sports) Hungarian sabre it's no to
much of a problem because they are so light that you can cut from the wrist.
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Kirk Lawson
> > What? Now, I've seen an aikidoka or two that would *talk* about
> > pressure points, but that's the most knowledge I've seen any of those
> > styles demonstrate; I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
> > throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
>
> Maybe I over-generalized the punching thing by including aikido. I
> saw a book that was made up of fairly old pictures that demonstrated a
> few Judo katas that featured punches.
Many Aikido Kata have punches and strikes in them too. But I don't
frequently see them taught as any significant part of the Aikido
curriculum.
> > Aside from the debate about brain damage <g>, the strenuous workout in
> > boxing or wrestling *is* good for you.
>
> Does boxing work all the muscle groups that Tai Chi does? I'm not
> sure the fighter is required to use as many ranges of motion.
> Wrestling is definitely a good workout, but only for young people. I
> don't know if an elderly person would reap any health benefits from
> it. By strenuous workout, I meant lifting weights and stuff before
> the actual practise, but I was thinking more about Tai Chi and it's
> benefits to people who aren't in top physical shape...
I've seen more out of shape Tai Chi players then I've seen out of shape
Boxing players.
Dave Mullett
> Errr... they're not farming implements?
> Some run-down:
> sai: metal too scarce, well-established as weapon outside
> Okinawa before debut in Okinawa
> nunchaku: most cultures have flails and grain threshers
> too, yet no causal link is established for *them* -
> why Okinawa?
> tonfa/tuifa: handle on a milling stone? why would they use
> that instead of just any other ol' stick they had
> around? where's the milling stone with a tonfa hole?
> bo: what possible farming use?
> kama: woohoo! you found *one* that's a farming implement...
Sounds sensible to me. This being the case, though, why didn't the
okinawans use "real" weapons? Or did they, with what we think of as
traditional weapons being historical curiosities, akin to Chinese wind-fire
wheels and the like? Traditional Okinawa weapons certainly don't seem to
have that many advantages, even in terms of concealment, but then I'm no
expert. I'll do the search and see what I find. If this has been answered
already, I'll presumably find it.
Badger Jones
Weigel) wrote:
>Dave Mullett <mul...@modex.com> wrote:
>
>>Care to expand on this, or (better yet) do you have any links to a
>>discussion? I've never even heard the "farm implements" theory questioned.
>>What is the conflicting info?
>
>Errr... they're not farming implements?
Also, the "weapons ban" information apparently comes from a
mistranslation of a historical inscription.
> sai: metal too scarce, well-established as weapon outside
> Okinawa before debut in Okinawa
Although watching people come up with rationale for it as an
agricultural tool is pretty funny.
> nunchaku: most cultures have flails and grain threshers
> too, yet no causal link is established for *them* -
> why Okinawa?
> tonfa/tuifa: handle on a milling stone? why would they use
> that instead of just any other ol' stick they had
> around? where's the milling stone with a tonfa hole?
Actually, I have seen the mill stones. Essentially you have two
short, fat stone cylinders one atop the other. Top one has a conical
hole on the top to feed grain in, and a square hole for the handle.
The handle sure does look like a tonfa, except for two differences -
the grip is long enough for two hands (you *are* moving a stone slab
after all), and the shaft is short.
The weapon is extent in China as well, where nobody claims any
agricultural heritage to it.
> bo: what possible farming use?
Well, if one modified it by making it flat, one could carry buckets
with it. Now, considering it isn't flat...
> kama: woohoo! you found *one* that's a farming implement...
Huzzah! Medals to all!
Badger Jones
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>Jeremy Graham wrote:
>
>> It's my (admittedly unscientific) opinion that the emphasis on the one
>> zen-like perfect blow in Japanese sword arts has more to do with
>> cultural notions of purity and simplicity. Of course, the short duration
>> of fights may also have been part and parcel of a culture that
>> encouraged duelling without armour and without an off-hand weapon.
>> George Silver complained about exactly the same aspect of Italian
>> fighting arts in 1599.
>
>Silver rocks.
We were using some Silver in Pete's seminar on Saturday, namely the
timing of the hand, timing of the body, and timing of the legs stuff.
Much fun.
Badger Jones
>Badger Jones wrote:
>> Now we just have to agree that Musashi actually developed a style
>> wielding two swords.
>
>He developed it after seeing Portuguese swordsmen with a main gauche
>in the live hand.
Please, Chas, please. Tell me you had your tongue planted firmly in
cheek when you wrote that.
Badger Jones
<weirdwolf@ntl(hatespam)world.com> wrote:
> Personally I would much rather cut with a sabre, this way you can keep the
>momentum going and get lot's of "flowing" cuts, the weight of a good sabre
>really helps to do this, with a modern (sports) Hungarian sabre it's no to
>much of a problem because they are so light that you can cut from the wrist.
Me too. I'm not much for point work.
Badger Jones
<NO_lklaw...@heapy.com> wrote:
>> Does boxing work all the muscle groups that Tai Chi does? I'm not
>> sure the fighter is required to use as many ranges of motion.
>> Wrestling is definitely a good workout, but only for young people. I
>> don't know if an elderly person would reap any health benefits from
>> it. By strenuous workout, I meant lifting weights and stuff before
>> the actual practise, but I was thinking more about Tai Chi and it's
>> benefits to people who aren't in top physical shape...
>
>I've seen more out of shape Tai Chi players then I've seen out of shape
>Boxing players.
Blasphemer!
Chris Johnson
Badger Jones wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:53:42 +0100, "Weirdwolf"
> <weirdwolf@ntl(hatespam)world.com> wrote:
>
> > Personally I would much rather cut with a sabre, this way you can keep the
> >momentum going and get lot's of "flowing" cuts, the weight of a good sabre
> >really helps to do this, with a modern (sports) Hungarian sabre it's no to
> >much of a problem because they are so light that you can cut from the wrist.
>
> Me too. I'm not much for point work.
>
>
Then it's a weak point in your technique. Learn the point, too,
for general improvement in skills.
Heck, even the Japanese use the point when it's advantageous to do so,
which was quite often in the days of armor. Points find the joints
in armor.
CJ
Richard Lancashire
> Chris Johnson <cmjo...@cfl.rr.com> wrote
> > Richard Lancashire wrote:
>
> > > I agree, so would I; although the cleaver might be fun for a while...
> > Imagine a MAUL being used as a weapon...
Also, from http://www.maisters.demon.co.uk/weapons.htm (and Terry
Brown knows a *lot* about medieval fighting):
"Maul, this was the old English name for the mallet. A utility
agricultural tool, it was often faced with lead. One historical
reference describes an English knight, named Billefort, using a maul
weighing twenty-five pounds when fighting, in 1315, a combat against
French knights. The maul was a popular secondary weapon of English
longbowman brought into use when hand-to-hand fighting occurred."
Cheers
Rich
Badger Jones
wrote:
>> > Personally I would much rather cut with a sabre, this way you can keep the
>> >momentum going and get lot's of "flowing" cuts, the weight of a good sabre
>> >really helps to do this, with a modern (sports) Hungarian sabre it's no to
>> >much of a problem because they are so light that you can cut from the wrist.
>>
>> Me too. I'm not much for point work.
>
>Then it's a weak point in your technique. Learn the point, too,
>for general improvement in skills.
I use the point often enough, usually to either back the person up to
optimal range for the edge, or as a quick pattern interrupt.
>Heck, even the Japanese use the point when it's advantageous to do so,
>which was quite often in the days of armor. Points find the joints
>in armor.
Funny you should mention this. We just hosted a seminar on Saturday
delving into the rondel vs. armour techniques in an early fechtbuch,
and Tuesday we had some of the AEMA people in demonstrating the
techniques in full armour.
Chas
> ........
> >> Now we just have to agree that Musashi actually developed a style
> >> wielding two swords.
> >He developed it after seeing Portuguese swordsmen with a main gauche
> >in the live hand.
> Please, Chas, please. Tell me you had your tongue planted firmly in
> cheek when you wrote that.
No, that's the story. I've read several accounts that purport to have
some substantiation- although where I read it escapes me presently.
One of the big Portuguese imports to Japan was steel- and Musashi was
known to have worked in at least one smithy (for the production of the
iron tsubas), so contact with them is quite probable.
Remember that Musashi lived in the Seventeenth Century- Portuguese had
been in Japan for a hundred years, and by 1650, second weapons were
all the rage for them; lanterns, cloaks, knives, two rapiers, all
that. His big battle was Sekigahara and he spent a lot of time in the
South where Portuguese were ghettoed. The Filipinos certainly got
'espada y daga' from the Iberians- and probably about the same period.
In any case, it's a viable theory; and not one I came up with on my
own. I'll try to remember/look up one of the references where I read
it. I have a fave printing of go rin no sho (the pretty little Tuttle
one), and I'd bet it's in that. My bookshelves look like Belgrade, so
I can't lay my hand on it without searching.
Anyway- real deal.
Matthew Weigel
>A (very) few know most pressure points and most know a very few
>pressure points. I like one or two for basic SD, but that's about it
>personally.
Are they trained like ukemi? Or even as much as striking is trained?
>> I've certainly never seen an aikidoka or a judoka
>> throw a competent punch they learned from aikido or judo.
>
>This is one of my complaints. Even though Ueshiba is quoted from time
>to time that "90% of Aikido is atemi," basic striking techniques are
>so very often not taught or just left out entirely.
The problem is, I think, very much that Ueshiba had a strong background
in this before moving on to aikido. I've not heard any reports on how
much *he* taught atemi, for instance.
>There are a few Aikido dojos that do teach striking.
Well? :)
>I hear there's some debate over Brain Damage...
I wonder, if Bob Shin comes back, would this drive him over the edge?
Matthew Weigel
>Sounds sensible to me. This being the case, though, why didn't the
>okinawans use "real" weapons?
A staff - and ask Kirk what the English thought about how real a weapon
the staff was-, a sharp pointy stick that has analogues in India and
Malaysia, and a flail (similar to found all over the world) aren't
"real" weapons?
They're not (mostly not) *metal* weapons.
The tonfa is an interesting weapon that as far as I know was developed
as an adjunct to unarmed fighting skills, originally just being
something you held while you did your normal techniques (maybe I'll be
corrected here).
And the kama is similar to the sickle occasionally used as a weapon in
Europe, too.
Without going into all the kobudu weapons, seems like plenty of mix and
comparability to non-Okinawan weapons.
>Or did they, with what we think of as traditional weapons being
>historical curiosities, akin to Chinese wind-fire wheels and the like?
They had some access to swords, talk of sword-bans not-withstanding,
but it was never as big as in Japan; I think Gombosi has made reference
to their lack of access to good steel as a damping factor.
(the demands placed on the metal of a small blade, or a sai, are much,
much lower than those placed on a larger, equally thin blade)
>Traditional Okinawa weapons certainly don't seem to have that many
>advantages, even in terms of concealment, but then I'm no expert.
Staffs are well-regarded weapons; flails are well-regarded weapons;
stabbing pointy things do well; sharp slicing things tend to be OK too.
OTOH, no, Okinawa didn't have access to the breadth and depth of human
experience to develop great weapons - they had something that did the
job of killing other people, and without great far-reaching wars like
China, Russia, Europe and so on, they didn't have as much impetus to
build bigger and better.
Don Wagner
>Now we have guns. try to find someplace to teach you the most efficient way to use a
>rapier or main gauche. You will find this very hard to do.
Any SCA organization the fences teaches Florentine and even rapier &
cloak. True period fencing.
--Don--
Let me show you how the guards used to do it...