Old time MA?
Badger_s
late-1800s kata, one-steps and line drills with the founder of Shotokan.
B&W, somewhat dark vids of GF doing kata, not quite at the level of today's
brown belt, imo.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=funakoshi&search=Search
In the original footage (about 30 minutes) you even see one Shotokan player
in the ring with a boxer (who looks pretty snappy) trying to throw a punch
or kick. After a while he even has the boxer sticking his arm out in the
air and leaving it, waiting for a response, heh. Once or twice you see
someone trying to kick an object (heavy bag) and it's a joke as they kick
out at the bottom of the bag, which doesn't even move.
Reminded of that footage of old CMA 'sparring' in a ring we saw last year
or so, I'm hard pressed to conclude that the old time MA really lived up to
the hype accorded them here by some.
Just as in the early TdF footage, the guys carried their own inner tubes
bandolier fashion and rode stages that took up to 20 hours to complete -
they were tough old birds, but not on par with today's riders.
Modern training methods, nutrition and a high level of competition make a
compelling comparison to these early pioneers.
It's difficult to understand watching these guys strutting around with
black belts, kicking air, throwing stilted punches, missing by several
feet, being bowed to, their average ability and talent easily surpassed by
today's talented white and colored belts.
-B
Antipodean....@gmail.com
night (I was bored and killing time), I found a clip on my hard-drive
called "comparative judo". It showed judo through the ages. Early
sparring clips circa 1900's, modern clips, kata, training exercises
etc.
Though the disparity wasn't as severe, my conclusions were startlingly
similar to yours
Yeah: those guys were good. But today's guys are better. And tomorrows
guys will be better still.
No surprise.
Badger_s
I think if I had to pick the most important influences in MA/fighting
they'd have to be:
Top Tier:
Favorable Genetics
Crucible effect - fighting lots of different people; high level of
competition.
Second Tier:
o Diet and Nutrition
o Modern science of training - Though training is good, genetics almost
always beats training. Some guys just take a month or two and right away
start winning races.
o Technique-based improvements.
IMO, the top tier heavily outweighs the second tier. (Though one might
argue that GJJ was a 'technique-based' improvement back in 1993, it really
was more of 'filling a hole' in everyone's game. Also when all else is
equal, then small factors start to play a major role - it can be easy to
mistake these small factors as a major influence depending on one's limited
perspective.)
You can see the crucible effect in modern sports where the local ethnic guy
rarely is able to step into international competition. Sometimes it does
happen, Jim Thorpe, track and field, Kenyans, distance running, Yao Ming in
basketball, but I can't think of any other examples.
Modern MMA guys have access, though just recently, to a high level of
competition, and have a high level of evolution right now. They also have a
genetic advantage due to better nutrition that wasn't available in the 12th
Century.
-B
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote in message
news:vtsjl21j1kh8jtori...@4ax.com...
No shit. But some here will tell you that some unknown, unnamed 135lb guy from
1,000+ years ago could whup Fedor in < 30 seconds. Lol!!
I've no doubt that there have some fine genetic specimens in days of old, and if
we were to pluck them from their era and place them in ours, they'd do well.
But that's the benefit of the present; we have the experiences of these past
masters to analyse, learn from, optimise and improve upon.
--
GDS
" Let's roll! "
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
Have a look at this one. Look at the 'punches' his routine are supposed to parry.
Maybe he's a very fit guy, loves his momma and is kind to animals...but gimme a
break....fights don't look like this. Ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWaYlujL1Y
Fraser Johnston
Don't forget the ability to more easily disseminate information. This group is
a good example, we have people here from all over the world, training different
styles and talking about it. If it wasn't for this group I would most probably
be training JJJ. Now we can see evolution within this group. People are
learning more, discussing techniques. As the technology improves eg. Youtube
we can now see video as well as still pictures allowing us to improve even
more.
Fraser
Ben Holmes
Speaking of JJJ... after Judo class last night, one of our white belts was
mentioning that he'd just accepted a JJJ promotion to Ikkyu. Sad, really;
because even he understands the tremendous gulf that is between his Ikkyu and
even a Judo Sankyu. He's an average white belt... has perhaps a dozen throws
under his belt that he can perform decently well. He mentioned that he'd be
embarrassed to wear a brown belt in a Judo class.
We convinced him that different people have different promotion standards...
Rabid Weasel
> We convinced him that different people have different promotion standards...
Could have just read him the section from the Newbie's Guide. ;-)
Be aware that the color of a belt as a rank in one system does not
translate to the same rank in another system. A "Green Belt" in one
system is usually not the same rank as a "Green Belt" in another
system. The same goes for Kyu/Gup ranks. As stated earlier, a Kyu/Gup
rank in one system does not equate to the same skill as an equally
numbered Kyu/Gup rank in another system. Simply put, you can not
compare a 5th Kyu in "Karate" with a 5th Gup in "Taekwondo" and they
probably wear different colored belts. At this point, it should go
without saying that a "Black Belt" in one system isn't really
comparable with a "Black Belt" in any other system. It only represents
a certain level of skill obtained within _that_ system; exactly what
skill level that represents is entirely up to the instructors who
define _that_ system.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Ben Holmes
says...
>
>On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:19:59 -0800, Ben Holmes wrote:
>
>> We convinced him that different people have different promotion standards...
>
>Could have just read him the section from the Newbie's Guide. ;-)
Didn't have a copy of it in my Judo Gi Pocket... :)
Rabid Weasel
>>Could have just read him the section from the Newbie's Guide. ;-)
>
>
> Didn't have a copy of it in my Judo Gi Pocket... :)
I'm working on redesigning the gi just for this eventuality.
Think I'll have much of a market?
yoko....@gmail.com
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:39:08 -0800, Ben Holmes wrote:
>
> >>Could have just read him the section from the Newbie's Guide. ;-)
> >
> >
> > Didn't have a copy of it in my Judo Gi Pocket... :)
>
> I'm working on redesigning the gi just for this eventuality.
>
> Think I'll have much of a market?
Actually I've been thinking of a similar useful gi-modification ...
having a little pocket to stow one's mouthguard when not in randori!
I'm thinking at the inside rear or side of the skirt, with a little
velcro flap. Whaddya reckon, good idea?
Charlie
Rabid Weasel
I think real men don't wear mouth guards.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk (that should troll out a few replies!) Lawson
Wayne Dobson
news:pan.2006.11.16.03.00.09.528118@NO31321SPAM+dayton.net...
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:51:04 -0800, yoko.guruma wrote:
>
> >
> > Rabid Weasel wrote:
> >> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:39:08 -0800, Ben Holmes wrote:
> >>
> >> >>Could have just read him the section from the Newbie's Guide. ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Didn't have a copy of it in my Judo Gi Pocket... :)
> >>
> >> I'm working on redesigning the gi just for this eventuality.
> >>
> >> Think I'll have much of a market?
> >
> > Actually I've been thinking of a similar useful gi-modification ...
> > having a little pocket to stow one's mouthguard when not in randori!
> > I'm thinking at the inside rear or side of the skirt, with a little
> > velcro flap. Whaddya reckon, good idea?
> >
> > Charlie
>
> I think real men don't wear mouth guards.
Tell that to Hannibal Lecter.
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Wayne Dobson
news:1bY6h.168182$lT5.1...@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Speaking of which: Lecter was a model patient until the afternoon of July 8,
1981. Upon complaining of chest pains, he was taken to the infirmary where
his restraints were removed. He attacked a nurse who was then placing leads
for an electrocardiogram (ECG) onto his chest, tore out her eye, dislocated
her jaw and ate her tongue.
Now that's a true badass! Fools!
Sam the Bam
> Have a look at this one. Look at the 'punches' his routine are supposed to parry.
>
> Maybe he's a very fit guy, loves his momma and is kind to animals...but gimme a
> break....fights don't look like this. Ever.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWaYlujL1Y
Incredible, somewhere between comical and pathetic.
You have to wonder what these fools are thinking,
putting up pseudo-apps like that for public display.
And now, for the rest of the story...
Let's look at some other vids, from the All-Japan championships, around
1980, my guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNkJD4BjlHU
(fast forward past the makiwara bit)
Take note, pansies: no gloves, no gear
Where I did MDK, our sparring was similar. Not close to that level,
but the same 'style', so to speak.
Doesn't look like TKD, does it?
For the UFC fanboys: those top level players were faster than
anyone today in mma, hands and feet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOgz6yQrBws&mode=related&search=
That's typical point sparring. Quick exchanges, maybe a point is
scored, maybe not, then reset.
A snippet from a dojang training session:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4-WVoAfw5s
That looks a lot like my old MDK club.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJsLvgnqiA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxfAdEIOMSg&mode=related&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
The rules state: you can score a point to the face, but must refrain
from contact... lol
Let's just say, you learn to defend yourself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
That move is common in many styles; in judo, it would be sukui-nage.
Though the demo is against a static opponent, he used it in
competition. It's a nice combination - attack with the punch, if you
miss, keep moving forward into the body slam.
Judo men, observe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmzv2u_HdI&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
okuri ashi harai... ippon!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4R-4xjpaCQ&mode=related&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
The first sweep is just a crude crescent kick to the leg, but the
second, as the opponent steps forward, takes out his foot beautifully.
de ashi barai... ippon!
Finally, here's a seminar, emphasizing hip rotation. Definitely
external, not internal, power generation...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpUOujUKM3g
Youtube is awesome. This probably the first time anyone on this board
has ever seen high level karate, from the golden era. Maybe some of
the knowitalls here will get a clue (Rebel Badger, hint hint)
I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
Sam
grappletech
news:1163890924.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> 0shotokan%20JKA%20kumite The rules state: you can score a point to the
> face, but must refrain from contact... lol
> Let's just say, you learn to defend yourself...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
> That move is common in many styles; in judo, it would be sukui-nage.
> Though the demo is against a static opponent, he used it in
> competition. It's a nice combination - attack with the punch, if you
> miss, keep moving forward into the body slam.
>
> Judo men, observe:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmzv2u_HdI&search=karate%20shotokan%
20J
> KA%20kumite okuri ashi harai... ippon!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4R-4xjpaCQ&mode=related&search=karate%
2
> 0shotokan%20JKA%20kumite The first sweep is just a crude crescent kick
> to the leg, but the second, as the opponent steps forward, takes out
> his foot beautifully. de ashi barai... ippon!
>
> Finally, here's a seminar, emphasizing hip rotation. Definitely
> external, not internal, power generation...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpUOujUKM3g
>
> Youtube is awesome. This probably the first time anyone on this board
> has ever seen high level karate, from the golden era. Maybe some of
> the knowitalls here will get a clue (Rebel Badger, hint hint)
>
> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
>
>
> Sam
>
I think it's just a demonstration of some kind. This Karate Black Belt
dude would probably still mop the floor with 95% of the populace. He'd
get owned by the other 5% though -- those of us with some wrestling,
BJJ, Judo, MMA skills or ex football players or just all around tough
dudes. I think a TKD or Muay Thai Kickboxer would kick his ass also.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
"Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1163890924.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
>> Have a look at this one. Look at the 'punches' his routine are supposed to
>> parry.
>>
>> Maybe he's a very fit guy, loves his momma and is kind to animals...but gimme
>> a
>> break....fights don't look like this. Ever.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWaYlujL1Y
>
> Incredible, somewhere between comical and pathetic.
> You have to wonder what these fools are thinking,
> putting up pseudo-apps like that for public display.
You do.
> And now, for the rest of the story...
>
> Let's look at some other vids, from the All-Japan championships, around
> 1980, my guess.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNkJD4BjlHU
> (fast forward past the makiwara bit)
>
> Take note, pansies: no gloves, no gear
> Where I did MDK, our sparring was similar. Not close to that level,
> but the same 'style', so to speak.
> Doesn't look like TKD, does it?
>
> For the UFC fanboys: those top level players were faster than
> anyone today in mma, hands and feet.
They both drop their non-striking hand when they strike. They get hit. Quelle
surprise.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOgz6yQrBws&mode=related&search=
> That's typical point sparring. Quick exchanges, maybe a point is
> scored, maybe not, then reset.
Same deal here...
> A snippet from a dojang training session:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4-WVoAfw5s
> That looks a lot like my old MDK club.
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmJsLvgnqiA&mode=related&search=
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxfAdEIOMSg&mode=related&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
> The rules state: you can score a point to the face, but must refrain
> from contact... lol
> Let's just say, you learn to defend yourself...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
> That move is common in many styles; in judo, it would be sukui-nage.
> Though the demo is against a static opponent, he used it in
> competition. It's a nice combination - attack with the punch, if you
> miss, keep moving forward into the body slam.
>
> Judo men, observe:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmmzv2u_HdI&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
> okuri ashi harai... ippon!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4R-4xjpaCQ&mode=related&search=karate%20shotokan%20JKA%20kumite
> The first sweep is just a crude crescent kick to the leg, but the
> second, as the opponent steps forward, takes out his foot beautifully.
> de ashi barai... ippon!
>
> Finally, here's a seminar, emphasizing hip rotation. Definitely
> external, not internal, power generation...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpUOujUKM3g
Sure, hip movement is important, maybe the most important aspect of a good punch.
But having your non-striking hand down by your hip when you throw chest-punches?
> Youtube is awesome. This probably the first time anyone on this board
> has ever seen high level karate, from the golden era. Maybe some of
> the knowitalls here will get a clue (Rebel Badger, hint hint)
>
> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
"In Tokyo, Minoki Ishihara is a living legend......"
Man, I love UFC 2.
Badger_s
<Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
>
>"In Tokyo, Minoki Ishihara is a living legend......"
>
>Man, I love UFC 2.
>--
>GDS
The basic problem here is that people used to thinking of Martial Arts as
Attribute-Based. IOW, people needed to convert their body into weapons.
Jump and kick, punch through boards. Look scary.
It's what I call 'Dinosaur training'. Heh, I also think of it as the kind
of training people have to do who have no talent. I joke a little, but
seriously. Acquiring skill in grappling and groundfighting, takedowns and
clinch work can really change all that.
The best martial arts are those that are non-attribute based. They use
leverage, terrain (ground fighting), and skill. Though Karate was often
advertized as this it turned out not to be so for the most part.
Now, old skinny sick dudes and chicks can fight well with BJJ.
Don't even have to be that skilled. No more time than 3-5 years, maybe 10
years is needed. Some guys who are talented and train optimally are doing
pretty well in 1-2 years of sport grappling. That's unheard of in other MA.
Non-attribute based doesn't mean that attributes aren't important. They're
just not strongly -required-.
In addition being close up with body contact, grappling arts can be
practiced with 100% aliveness without injury. (unlike most striking arts).
So skill transfer is good, and you get few if any false applications or
tactics that don't actually work. In other arts, historically there has
been substantial opportunity to develop 'overly optimistic' moves and
techniques.
-B
Raker
"grappletech" <no...@removenowhere.biz> wrote in message
news:1163894...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
> "Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote in
> news:1163890924.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
>>> Have a look at this one. Look at the 'punches' his routine are
>>> supposed to parry.
>>>
>>> Maybe he's a very fit guy, loves his momma and is kind to
>>> animals...but gimme a break....fights don't look like this. Ever.
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcWaYlujL1Y
Well, I'll confess that I'm not sure why bunkai of Sochin *should* look like
a fight. It's a kata; each technique stands (or falls) on its own merit.
((Much snipped of other Youtube videos.))
>>
>> Youtube is awesome. This probably the first time anyone on this board
>> has ever seen high level karate, from the golden era. Maybe some of
>> the knowitalls here will get a clue (Rebel Badger, hint hint)
>>
>> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
>>
I've had the privilege of studying under a competitor of that caliber, and
have seen his competition vidoes, so I do consider myself spoiled. However,
I do feel I have to point out that sport-sparring -- be it the JKA, USKF or
the mixed groups that are popular now -- is very different than the
self-defense techniques meant to be displayed in a kata.
That said, I do find that I prefer to watch the older videos to today's
mixed arts. Something about the explosiveness of the techniques.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> I think it's just a demonstration of some kind. This Karate Black Belt
> dude would probably still mop the floor with 95% of the populace. He'd
> get owned by the other 5% though -- those of us with some wrestling,
> BJJ, Judo, MMA skills or ex football players or just all around tough
> dudes. I think a TKD or Muay Thai Kickboxer would kick his ass also.
I'd be cautious about making that statement. Grappling, I suspect, doesn't
work very well when one is facing multiple opponents in a real self-defense
situation, as Mr. Funakoshi's Sochin demonstration is clearly meant to show.
Think about it: In the 2, 10 or 30 seconds it takes to grapple and lock a
joint or what-have-you, the other opponents would beat the tar out of you.
And I'd hesitate to say that Mr. Funakoshi lacks other other skills
available to martial artists. I checked his bio, and he competed at the
national level in the '60s, and probably '70s, when minor judo or jiu-jitsu
skills were used in sport sparring -- as some of the other videos showed.
Just because he didn't demonstrate them in this video -- which is merely a
kata that highlights a couple of basic techniques -- doesn't mean he doesn't
know more
Granted, he started training in 1948, so he must be well into his 60s, and
I'm sure younger martial artists would have a physical edge. But a few weeks
ago, I sparred my own sensei, who competed at the national and international
level in the 60s and 70s. He's 67 now, and I have to say he wiped the floor
with me.
Todd
Antipodean....@gmail.com
Sam the Bam wrote:
>
> Youtube is awesome. This probably the first time anyone on this board
> has ever seen high level karate, from the golden era. Maybe some of
> the knowitalls here will get a clue (Rebel Badger, hint hint)
>
> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
>
>
> Sam
Here's a good clip showing karate : mma
See if you can figure out which is which
Antipodean....@gmail.com
GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
> They both drop their non-striking hand when they strike. They get hit. Quelle
> surprise.
What's with the low hands / low guard anyway? Holdover from swords?
Were there any boxing style hands / guards in TMA prior to B.Lee /
"kickboxing"?
Shuurai
Badger_s wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:29:04 GMT, "GreendistantNOSPAMstar"
> <Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
> >
> >"In Tokyo, Minoki Ishihara is a living legend......"
> >
> >Man, I love UFC 2.
> >--
> >GDS
>
> The basic problem here is that people used to thinking of Martial Arts as
> Attribute-Based. IOW, people needed to convert their body into weapons.
> Jump and kick, punch through boards. Look scary.
That's always been a part of it, and still is to some degree. You
can't tell me that professional fighters aren't spending a great deal
of time developing attributes and even converting their bodies into
weapons. A big part of becoming a professional (or even amateur)
fighter is toughening yourself.. Increasing your ability to deliver
damage to an opponent and absorb it yourself.
Watching MMA, I see plenty of action both standing and on the ground
where people are depending mostly on their ability to deliver and
absorb punishment. That is attributes. They may not be *as*
emphasized as in punching boards and whatnot, but the idea is the same.
Professional boxers don't just learn technique - they spend a lot of
time developing the ability to punch really hard. They spend time
strengthening their bodies to absorb heavy blows.
> It's what I call 'Dinosaur training'. Heh, I also think of it as the kind
> of training people have to do who have no talent. I joke a little, but
> seriously. Acquiring skill in grappling and groundfighting, takedowns and
> clinch work can really change all that.
Sure. But there has to be some reason that almost every culture
through history has shown a preference to remaining upright in combat
situations. Even the jujutsu systems started off that way - the idea
was to throw your opponent on the ground, not go there with him.
Oldschool karate has plenty of throws and counters to throws; as do
most Chinese systems, Korean, etc.
> The best martial arts are those that are non-attribute based. They use
> leverage, terrain (ground fighting), and skill. Though Karate was often
> advertized as this it turned out not to be so for the most part.
Depends on the karate, but yes - generally speaking the focus of
traditional karate has been conditioning followed by technique.
Ideally there should be a balance, but conditioning has historically
been the main focus, at least in the truly traditional systems.
> Now, old skinny sick dudes and chicks can fight well with BJJ.
Can they really?
Aside from friendly rolling in class, how many times have you actually
seen a skinny sick dude or a chick really *use* BJJ against a
determined, fit opponent? How many skinny sick dudes or chicks in your
class could take you if you really wanted to win?
This isn't a BJJ vs. anything else question. It really doesn't matter
what style or school you're in - the fact is, there are a lot of things
that work really well when both parties are being friendly about it,
but tend to be less successful once it's a fight.
> Don't even have to be that skilled. No more time than 3-5 years, maybe 10
> years is needed. Some guys who are talented and train optimally are doing
> pretty well in 1-2 years of sport grappling. That's unheard of in other MA.
Between one and ten years? :b
> Non-attribute based doesn't mean that attributes aren't important. They're
> just not strongly -required-.
Depends on what you mean by required. Look at who's winning in the big
MMA events. All the names you hear about are big guys, strong guys;
how many skinny sick dudes can you think of who are winning?
You might argue that a skinny sick dude or a chick trained in BJJ has a
good shot against a relatively fit untrained (or even hardly-trained)
person, but the same goes for someone trained in karate, TKD, or kung
fu.
Back when Royce was winning, he was an extremely fit athlete. He may
not have had the size or pure strength advantage, but a large part of
his success was his ability to make his stamina part of the equation.
> In addition being close up with body contact, grappling arts can be
> practiced with 100% aliveness without injury. (unlike most striking arts).
Which is probably the number one advantage.
> So skill transfer is good, and you get few if any false applications or
> tactics that don't actually work. In other arts, historically there has
> been substantial opportunity to develop 'overly optimistic' moves and
> techniques.
Agreed.
Shuurai
Antipodean....@gmail.com wrote:
> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
> > They both drop their non-striking hand when they strike. They get hit. Quelle
> > surprise.
>
> What's with the low hands / low guard anyway? Holdover from swords?
Nah; has to do with the fact that they're not really fighting.
If you look at what these guys are doing, it's basically point sparring
with hard contact. They're still stopping at each hit landed, they're
still maintaining an artifically long distance from one another, and
they're not even attempting any real combinations because those would
look sloppy and not as precise as a good form reverse puynch.
When you don't have to worry about a combination and you're at long
punching range, you can afford to keep your hands lower to deal with
kicks.
> Were there any boxing style hands / guards in TMA prior to B.Lee /
> "kickboxing"?
Absolutely. A lot of traditional Okinawan karate systems taught a
boxing style guard, various Chinese arts; and of course boxing.
Despite all of the hype surrounding Bruce Lee, very little of what he
did in terms of technique was all that revolutionary.
Badger_s
>
>Badger_s wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:29:04 GMT, "GreendistantNOSPAMstar"
>> <Greendis...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> I'm not a shotokaner, but I admire those old time JKA studs.
>> >
>> >"In Tokyo, Minoki Ishihara is a living legend......"
>> >
>> >Man, I love UFC 2.
>> >--
>> >GDS
>>
>> The basic problem here is that people used to thinking of Martial Arts as
>> Attribute-Based. IOW, people needed to convert their body into weapons.
>> Jump and kick, punch through boards. Look scary.
>
>That's always been a part of it, and still is to some degree. You
>can't tell me that professional fighters aren't spending a great deal
>of time developing attributes and even converting their bodies into
>weapons. A big part of becoming a professional (or even amateur)
>fighter is toughening yourself.. Increasing your ability to deliver
>damage to an opponent and absorb it yourself.
Sure, it's extremely important, but people seem to overemphasize it at
times. As we've seen this stuff goes through phases.
But here I'm not talking about taking on a professional fighter. I'm just
saying with a modicum of C-M boxing defense and a few years of good BJJ
training, a female now has a reliable capability of dealing with an
untrained, though reasonably aggressive male. C-M defense first keeps her
from getting hit in the head as she closes to clinch or pulls guard and
then triangles or arm bars the opponent. Of course if you can get in a
lucky punch or knee, that's good. You still need offensive weapon
sharpening. But against even slightly larger opponents I've seen ground
grappling where the female blues submit the white noobs repeatedly.
>Watching MMA, I see plenty of action both standing and on the ground
>where people are depending mostly on their ability to deliver and
>absorb punishment. That is attributes. They may not be *as*
>emphasized as in punching boards and whatnot, but the idea is the same.
Again, of course. Attributes are extremely important. But at some point you
have to emphasize technique and leverage and that's where smaller people
have an advantage, especially when it goes to the ground. T has said
frequently that if she can avoid getting hit in the head and pull guard she
has a fighter's chance of getting a submission and then escaping.
>Professional boxers don't just learn technique - they spend a lot of
>time developing the ability to punch really hard. They spend time
>strengthening their bodies to absorb heavy blows.
>
>> It's what I call 'Dinosaur training'. Heh, I also think of it as the kind
>> of training people have to do who have no talent. I joke a little, but
>> seriously. Acquiring skill in grappling and groundfighting, takedowns and
>> clinch work can really change all that.
>
>Sure. But there has to be some reason that almost every culture
>through history has shown a preference to remaining upright in combat
>situations. Even the jujutsu systems started off that way - the idea
>was to throw your opponent on the ground, not go there with him.
>Oldschool karate has plenty of throws and counters to throws; as do
>most Chinese systems, Korean, etc.
Again, I totally agree. Standup is preferential. But my thought was not to
try and trade punches, but use the C-M active defense to survive
outfighting. Then and only then can you expect to get close enough to throw
knees and smother the guy until you can slap on a submission. It requires
high skill but not -necessarily- size and strength.
>> The best martial arts are those that are non-attribute based. They use
>> leverage, terrain (ground fighting), and skill. Though Karate was often
>> advertized as this it turned out not to be so for the most part.
>
>Depends on the karate, but yes - generally speaking the focus of
>traditional karate has been conditioning followed by technique.
>Ideally there should be a balance, but conditioning has historically
>been the main focus, at least in the truly traditional systems.
>
>> Now, old skinny sick dudes and chicks can fight well with BJJ.
>
>Can they really?
>
>Aside from friendly rolling in class, how many times have you actually
>seen a skinny sick dude or a chick really *use* BJJ against a
>determined, fit opponent? How many skinny sick dudes or chicks in your
>class could take you if you really wanted to win?
Well I'm talking about Bill Mahoney, who despite being less physically
endowed, uses a combination of pain tolerance and technique and awareness
to survive and win fights against bigger guys. He does it primarily with
BJJ skill and experience, and their lack of same.
>This isn't a BJJ vs. anything else question. It really doesn't matter
>what style or school you're in - the fact is, there are a lot of things
>that work really well when both parties are being friendly about it,
>but tend to be less successful once it's a fight.
>
>> Don't even have to be that skilled. No more time than 3-5 years, maybe 10
>> years is needed. Some guys who are talented and train optimally are doing
>> pretty well in 1-2 years of sport grappling. That's unheard of in other MA.
>
>Between one and ten years? :b
>
>> Non-attribute based doesn't mean that attributes aren't important. They're
>> just not strongly -required-.
>
>Depends on what you mean by required. Look at who's winning in the big
>MMA events. All the names you hear about are big guys, strong guys;
>how many skinny sick dudes can you think of who are winning?
I can name several guys who look unimpressive in regular clothes that rule
in MMA. Karo Parisyan is one. Duane Ludwig is another. He looks anemic
sometimes, heh. But again I'm not talking about the peak of the fighting
pyramid. I'm talking about the conservative end.
>You might argue that a skinny sick dude or a chick trained in BJJ has a
>good shot against a relatively fit untrained (or even hardly-trained)
>person, but the same goes for someone trained in karate, TKD, or kung
>fu.
I don't agree. Though there are occasional stories of females getting in a
sucker punch, it's not reliable. Females are just not doing it with
pugilism - they're too small and weak to do well reliably in standup
(unless the emphasis is on defense first!)
>Back when Royce was winning, he was an extremely fit athlete. He may
>not have had the size or pure strength advantage, but a large part of
>his success was his ability to make his stamina part of the equation.
>
>> In addition being close up with body contact, grappling arts can be
>> practiced with 100% aliveness without injury. (unlike most striking arts).
>
>Which is probably the number one advantage.
>
>> So skill transfer is good, and you get few if any false applications or
>> tactics that don't actually work. In other arts, historically there has
>> been substantial opportunity to develop 'overly optimistic' moves and
>> techniques.
>
>Agreed.
Yeah, I think we're substantially in agreement throughout. Attributes are
important but the way to go is not to produce bulked up females with thick
foreheads, but to realize how to use the ground and technique and leverage
once you survive the initial onslaught. I know I feel a lot safer knowing
that I can defend better with the elbows up peek-a-boo defense and if I get
clocked, I can go down on my back and pull guard recover and use
submissions.
-B
Badger_s
>
>Antipodean....@gmail.com wrote:
>> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
>> > They both drop their non-striking hand when they strike. They get hit. Quelle
>> > surprise.
>>
>> What's with the low hands / low guard anyway? Holdover from swords?
>
>Nah; has to do with the fact that they're not really fighting.
Well-l-l, it might be construed as attack by drawing. But it's generally a
bad idea to train that way. You don't develop the shoulder strength to keep
your arms up when you're tiring that way.
>If you look at what these guys are doing, it's basically point sparring
>with hard contact. They're still stopping at each hit landed, they're
>still maintaining an artifically long distance from one another, and
>they're not even attempting any real combinations because those would
>look sloppy and not as precise as a good form reverse puynch.
>
>When you don't have to worry about a combination and you're at long
>punching range, you can afford to keep your hands lower to deal with
>kicks.
>
>> Were there any boxing style hands / guards in TMA prior to B.Lee /
>> "kickboxing"?
>
>Absolutely. A lot of traditional Okinawan karate systems taught a
>boxing style guard, various Chinese arts; and of course boxing.
Uh, yeah, maybe, but it wasn't a high guard, and it usually involved
reaching out in space to intercept incoming strikes. It's nice if you have
BL-class speed and reflexes. Otherwise, it's overly optimistic, especially
that parrying with the lead hand stuff.
>Despite all of the hype surrounding Bruce Lee, very little of what he
>did in terms of technique was all that revolutionary.
He did a few things. One was that instruction should be highly
individualized. Define and improve your natural strengths, plug some holes
in your game. Strong side forward lead, longest weapon/closest target were
all good starting improvements over the standard stuff. A lot of what he
was doing had been done before, but he seemed to bring it out to the
mainstream, and make it 'ok' to break from tradition. There's more but
don't want to belabor. There was lots of hype.
-B
Pierre Honeyman
Dude! Pornotube? I could have used a warning!
Pierre
Andy Upton
"Sam the Bam" <samth...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1163890924.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Matthew McGrattan
>
> Absolutely. A lot of traditional Okinawan karate systems taught a
> boxing style guard, various Chinese arts; and of course boxing.
>
Savate, obviously. More or less standard boxing type guard plus kicks.
"Kickboxing" type technique doesn't date from the late 60s/70s but goes
way back.
Matt
Shuurai
> >That's always been a part of it, and still is to some degree. You
> >can't tell me that professional fighters aren't spending a great deal
> >of time developing attributes and even converting their bodies into
> >weapons. A big part of becoming a professional (or even amateur)
> >fighter is toughening yourself.. Increasing your ability to deliver
> >damage to an opponent and absorb it yourself.
>
> Sure, it's extremely important, but people seem to overemphasize it at
> times. As we've seen this stuff goes through phases.
Well sure - hence the use of the term overemphasize. There are also
schools that overemphasize technique and pay no attention to attributes
- your typical McDojo for example.
> But here I'm not talking about taking on a professional fighter. I'm just
> saying with a modicum of C-M boxing defense and a few years of good BJJ
> training, a female now has a reliable capability of dealing with an
> untrained, though reasonably aggressive male. C-M defense first keeps her
> from getting hit in the head as she closes to clinch or pulls guard and
> then triangles or arm bars the opponent. Of course if you can get in a
> lucky punch or knee, that's good. You still need offensive weapon
> sharpening. But against even slightly larger opponents I've seen ground
> grappling where the female blues submit the white noobs repeatedly.
There is no doubt that grappling is a better equalizer than striking
when it comes to differences in size, strength, or whatnot.
> >Watching MMA, I see plenty of action both standing and on the ground
> >where people are depending mostly on their ability to deliver and
> >absorb punishment. That is attributes. They may not be *as*
> >emphasized as in punching boards and whatnot, but the idea is the same.
>
> Again, of course. Attributes are extremely important. But at some point you
> have to emphasize technique and leverage and that's where smaller people
> have an advantage, especially when it goes to the ground. T has said
> frequently that if she can avoid getting hit in the head and pull guard she
> has a fighter's chance of getting a submission and then escaping.
But again, that is a mixture of both. T isn't just some chick with
good technique. T is, at least as she describes herself, a fitness
fanatic. Running, weight training, the whole nine yards. It's the
mixture that gives her that fighting chance. She'll absorb hits that
would crumple a more average gal.
> >Professional boxers don't just learn technique - they spend a lot of
> >time developing the ability to punch really hard. They spend time
> >strengthening their bodies to absorb heavy blows.
> >
> >> It's what I call 'Dinosaur training'. Heh, I also think of it as the kind
> >> of training people have to do who have no talent. I joke a little, but
> >> seriously. Acquiring skill in grappling and groundfighting, takedowns and
> >> clinch work can really change all that.
> >
> >Sure. But there has to be some reason that almost every culture
> >through history has shown a preference to remaining upright in combat
> >situations. Even the jujutsu systems started off that way - the idea
> >was to throw your opponent on the ground, not go there with him.
> >Oldschool karate has plenty of throws and counters to throws; as do
> >most Chinese systems, Korean, etc.
>
> Again, I totally agree. Standup is preferential. But my thought was not to
> try and trade punches, but use the C-M active defense to survive
> outfighting. Then and only then can you expect to get close enough to throw
> knees and smother the guy until you can slap on a submission. It requires
> high skill but not -necessarily- size and strength.
It requires a certain level of both. If you have more skill you need
less size and strength, and vice versa. A third factor is toughness -
mental and physical.
> >> The best martial arts are those that are non-attribute based. They use
> >> leverage, terrain (ground fighting), and skill. Though Karate was often
> >> advertized as this it turned out not to be so for the most part.
> >
> >Depends on the karate, but yes - generally speaking the focus of
> >traditional karate has been conditioning followed by technique.
> >Ideally there should be a balance, but conditioning has historically
> >been the main focus, at least in the truly traditional systems.
> >
> >> Now, old skinny sick dudes and chicks can fight well with BJJ.
> >
> >Can they really?
> >
> >Aside from friendly rolling in class, how many times have you actually
> >seen a skinny sick dude or a chick really *use* BJJ against a
> >determined, fit opponent? How many skinny sick dudes or chicks in your
> >class could take you if you really wanted to win?
>
> Well I'm talking about Bill Mahoney, who despite being less physically
> endowed, uses a combination of pain tolerance and technique and awareness
> to survive and win fights against bigger guys. He does it primarily with
> BJJ skill and experience, and their lack of same.
Sure; a mixture of technique and fitness. Despite his health issues,
he's still a lot more fit than most people. Plus he's somewhat insane,
so that helps.
> >This isn't a BJJ vs. anything else question. It really doesn't matter
> >what style or school you're in - the fact is, there are a lot of things
> >that work really well when both parties are being friendly about it,
> >but tend to be less successful once it's a fight.
> >
> >> Don't even have to be that skilled. No more time than 3-5 years, maybe 10
> >> years is needed. Some guys who are talented and train optimally are doing
> >> pretty well in 1-2 years of sport grappling. That's unheard of in other MA.
> >
> >Between one and ten years? :b
> >
> >> Non-attribute based doesn't mean that attributes aren't important. They're
> >> just not strongly -required-.
> >
> >Depends on what you mean by required. Look at who's winning in the big
> >MMA events. All the names you hear about are big guys, strong guys;
> >how many skinny sick dudes can you think of who are winning?
>
> I can name several guys who look unimpressive in regular clothes that rule
> in MMA. Karo Parisyan is one. Duane Ludwig is another. He looks anemic
> sometimes, heh. But again I'm not talking about the peak of the fighting
> pyramid. I'm talking about the conservative end.
But all of these guys are *still* training. They're active. They're
working out. Which places them above the norm. I think you
underestimate the level of poor fitness in your common man.
> >You might argue that a skinny sick dude or a chick trained in BJJ has a
> >good shot against a relatively fit untrained (or even hardly-trained)
> >person, but the same goes for someone trained in karate, TKD, or kung
> >fu.
>
> I don't agree. Though there are occasional stories of females getting in a
> sucker punch, it's not reliable. Females are just not doing it with
> pugilism - they're too small and weak to do well reliably in standup
> (unless the emphasis is on defense first!)
I've seen examples of it happening - at least as many as you can find
for BJJ. I agree that it's not likely to be a matter of pure striking.
But who says karate, kung fu and the like are limited to striking?
> >Back when Royce was winning, he was an extremely fit athlete. He may
> >not have had the size or pure strength advantage, but a large part of
> >his success was his ability to make his stamina part of the equation.
> >
> >> In addition being close up with body contact, grappling arts can be
> >> practiced with 100% aliveness without injury. (unlike most striking arts).
> >
> >Which is probably the number one advantage.
> >
> >> So skill transfer is good, and you get few if any false applications or
> >> tactics that don't actually work. In other arts, historically there has
> >> been substantial opportunity to develop 'overly optimistic' moves and
> >> techniques.
> >
> >Agreed.
>
> Yeah, I think we're substantially in agreement throughout. Attributes are
> important but the way to go is not to produce bulked up females with thick
> foreheads, but to realize how to use the ground and technique and leverage
> once you survive the initial onslaught. I know I feel a lot safer knowing
> that I can defend better with the elbows up peek-a-boo defense and if I get
> clocked, I can go down on my back and pull guard recover and use
> submissions.
Not suggesting we bulk them up - but there is a level of fitness
involved. You can have two people (male or female) who are both
relatively the same height and frame and yet one is much stronger,
faster, tougher, and has more endurance than the other.
Generally speaking, you can gain some of that in rolling, but the folks
who really do well are the ones who go the extra mile and do the
roadwork, the weights, and so forth.
Badger_s
>Not suggesting we bulk them up - but there is a level of fitness
>involved. You can have two people (male or female) who are both
>relatively the same height and frame and yet one is much stronger,
>faster, tougher, and has more endurance than the other.
>
>Generally speaking, you can gain some of that in rolling, but the folks
>who really do well are the ones who go the extra mile and do the
>roadwork, the weights, and so forth.
Good reply, but I -think- you're missing my point to some degree.
I'm not arguing attributes vs technique. I'm saying that there are arts
where the work is based much less on attributes and much more on technique,
so much so that normal people can become pretty good fighters without
ramping up attributes to some unusual level.
I have to admit I'm totally stealing this concept from Matt Thornton and
Rodney Chico King.
Rodney talks about it in his tapes. He says that there exists a
'high-attribute' version of boxing, which includes what the pros do,
hardened abs, superior punching skills, amazing cardio.
But he also says that what he teaches is primarily a 'lower attribute
based' version, emphasizing the C-M footwork, dynamic elbows up peek-a-boo
cover, ability to go into your defensive shell and survive. To counter a
jab, for instance, they bump the incoming jab on their elbows up guard and
the instant the jab touches they fire off a jab cross and the majority of
the time it connects perfectly. They have a 'cue' to the timing and are not
relying on some expert ability to pick up or read opponent's intent and
counterpunch without that touch cue. It's quite remarkable.
He says that this version can NOT survive against high attribute based
boxing. That's not the point. It's giving normal people a method and
mechanism so that after about 5-6 classes with him their standup is
enormously increased. Those people will -still- not be able to go enter the
UFC. Again the point is that he has figured out ways to use relatively
simple things, basic moves and tactics that let normal people increase
their skill several times over what they had.
BJJ is the same. It exists in a very high-attribute based version, witness
Jacare and Marcelo Garcia. But it also is functional in a lower attribute
based system where you roll without a lot of strength, and use position,
posture, technique, leverage. Again the low attribute based version is not
generally going to beat the high attribute based version, all things being
equal (i.e. you're not pitting a high belt vs a low belt). As people get
highly skilled they can roll with big strong lower belts, even quite good
guys, and hardly break a sweat.
With Karate and external arts, it's much more difficult to define a
low-attribute based version. You need speed, exceptional timing, sometimes
extreme flexibility. It's basically a 'caveman' art and that's the way many
(not all) people have done their training - big knuckles, breaking patio
slabs. Sure, -advanced- players can also do a 'low attribute game' against
beginners, but the key here is that you can't readily teach this 'version'
to beginners - it's a function of the long training and lots of sparring.
In short, for TMA, it's often 'first be as fast as BL...' kind of
situation.
I don't want to misdirect the point to a TMA vs MMA argument though. The
simple idea is that for many arts it is possible to train a 'lower
attribute based' game, and C-M boxing, and BJJ are at the top of the list
of arts that lend themselves to this concept. Thus they have a natural
superiority. I'd highly recommend them as base arts. If you have good
skills in a lot of areas but still struggle with stand up, get the C-M
vids. They -will- bring up your game just by viewing them and practicing
some of what is shown. This is a rare thing. The only other series I've
seen that will do this for beginners and intermediates is Mario Sperry's
excellent video series (VT, BJJ).
Give me a year of C-M boxing and a year of BJJ and you'll turn out a very,
very good fighter in a very short amount of time. You have two forces at
work here. The first being that these two are 'aliveness-based' arts and
with BJJ you -can- go 100% without significant injury (if you're careful).
The second major influencer is that they both use leverage, tactics, and
drills that bring up a normal person's game with a minimum of strength and
cardio - they are successful and don't -require- high attributes to employ.
Hope this explains it better. ;-)
-B
Rabid Weasel
>
> GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
>> They both drop their non-striking hand when they strike. They get hit. Quelle
>> surprise.
>
> What's with the low hands / low guard anyway? Holdover from swords?
I see a lot of low hands in MMA/UFC bouts these days. They start to get
tired, open up space between them to kicking range or farther, and drop
the hands down to chest level.
> Were there any boxing style hands / guards in TMA prior to B.Lee /
> "kickboxing"?
Fairbairn integrated Boxing and Judo well before WWII and put it to use in
Hong Kong.
sree...@hotmail.com
training mma, and kettle bell training (mostly for grip strength) a
usefull site for kettle bell training and mma's is www.grapplefit.com
have a look at the dvd , I bought a copy and it even has out takes, But
most important it does show you how to gain core strength , and
increase power, if you think its any good let me know, if not nothing
lost..
Cheers Shatterproof
www.grapplefit.com