training with a Wing Chun dummy
YourNME
this is not your art form would be an effective method of training?
Grappler240
bored. I know nothing bout it, though.
effective, I have my doubts. maybe at toughening the knuckles/forearms...but
solo exercises just don't impress me usually for their effectiveness.
like i say, though, it looks cool.
G240
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke
hal
>would any one think that training with a wing chun dummy even though
>this is not your art form would be an effective method of training?
Yes.
The point of a jong is to allow the practioner to practice applying
force to resilient, stationary objects to more realistically simulate
striking hard body parts. It is good for practicing combination
techniques and toughing hands and forearms. But, wooden men don't hit
back, so it in itself is not a complete training tool. You still need
live drills.
Hal
Wudangkuen
If WCK is not the style you practice it makes no sense to practice the
style's techniques on a dummy.
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
YourNME <broadb...@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
b6ab0c8a.02081...@posting.google.com...
m0rdant
styles use it to improve their techniques there is little reason to believe
you couldn't derive something from it yourself. Take a look at some Wing
Chun books (or 7 Star Mantis which also has some wooden dummy drills/forms)
for an idea of combinations to play around with. It's nice to have some
resistance on your blocks as well as strikes from time to time.
"Wudangkuen" <wudan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1029345350.316672@cache2...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/02
Wudangkuen
TRUE Wing Chun Kuen (or Weng Shun Kuen, to be excact) does not have ANY kind
of blocking movement. The Bong Sao is a transitional movement between Man
Sao and Tan Sao. The WCK-dummy isn't meant for "hardening" excersises
either. No, there is no reason whatsoever for a non-WCK stylist to train WCK
techniques on a WCK dummy.
Regards,
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
m0rdant <m0r...@somewhere.hotmail> schreef in berichtnieuws
hSy69.12906$8aG1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
hal
>Hi,
>
>TRUE Wing Chun Kuen (or Weng Shun Kuen, to be excact) does not have ANY kind
>of blocking movement. The Bong Sao is a transitional movement between Man
>Sao and Tan Sao. The WCK-dummy isn't meant for "hardening" excersises
>either. No, there is no reason whatsoever for a non-WCK stylist to train WCK
>techniques on a WCK dummy.
Reread the orginal post. He did not ask about training WC techniques.
Just train in general. Techniques are techniques. There are only so
many ways to block and strike. A Non-WC stylist can very well train
on a jong. So, the answer to the original question would be "yes, of
course".
Hal
YourNME
Thanks for the input Hal. Which art do you practice? You seem to be
quite knowledgable. I studied as a late teen early twenties, but
eventually started smoking and quit. Now I quit smoking and decided
i;m going to study Shoalin do.
Phillip Inoy
This is silly. Any time you do trapping of any sort, a muk yan jong is
advisable
bagua, taiji, xing yi all have trapping and everyone could benefit
from pak sao lop sao, bong sao, etc. training.
Everyone should either buy or make a MYJ.
Phillip J. Inoy
hcannon18
"Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.02081...@posting.google.com...
There is no reason for styles not to borrow from each other.
A Weirdly
arms, etc nor for rehearsing techniques. ONE of it's many uses is to
practice the explosive force needed for trapping and hitting in trapping
range.
If you can find an partner who can take the punishment of constant hits then
it wouldn't be an effective tool. In such a case you'd be too much of a man
to have a need to practice martial arts anyway.
As always mr. gichoke...you mock what you don't understand.
"Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020814120734...@mb-bh.aol.com...
DougŽ
use of a wing chun dummy?
Doug®
ICQ# - 49024165
AOL IM - sokolistalina
http://members.tripod.com/~russianmartialart/systema.html
hcannon18
"DougŽ" <sokolista...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ekmluk1cpubc52kb...@4ax.com...
> Again, I ask, where can one find a good video for teaching the
> use of a wing chun dummy?
>
> ICQ# - 49024165
> AOL IM - sokolistalina
> http://members.tripod.com/~russianmartialart/systema.html
Try Unique Press Randy Williams videos
YourNME
Thinking more along the lines of adapting my arts style to what as far
as I can tell a great training technique.
Rockpyle
> The sole purpose of a dummy is not for toughing and conditioning your hands,
> arms, etc nor for rehearsing techniques. ONE of it's many uses is to
> practice the explosive force needed for trapping and hitting in trapping
> range.
>
> If you can find an partner who can take the punishment of constant hits then
> it wouldn't be an effective tool. In such a case you'd be too much of a man
> to have a need to practice martial arts anyway.
>
> As always mr. gichoke...you mock what you don't understand.
>
> "Grappler240" <grapp...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> news:20020814120734...@mb-bh.aol.com...
> > i always thought it looked pretty cool. maybe a good solo exercise if
> you're
> > bored. I know nothing bout it, though.
> >
> > effective, I have my doubts. maybe at toughening the
> knuckles/forearms...but
> > solo exercises just don't impress me usually for their effectiveness.
> >
> > like i say, though, it looks cool.
> >
> > G240
> >
Just because G240 says something looks cool doesn't mean that he's
mocking it. He also said he doesn't know anything about it. Not only
that, but you blame Gichoke for mocking the comments.
Wudangkuen
WCK/WSK techniques. More specifically it is designed to correct your WCK/WSK
STANCE while doing your hand and foot-techniques. It has NO USE for other
styles. It isn't some kind of universal training-apparatus like a sand-bag
or something like that. So again; If you are NOT training WCK/WSK, training
on a Mook Yong is a waste of time.
Regards,
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
YourNME <broadb...@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
b6ab0c8a.02081...@posting.google.com...
Rae McKenna
Try these people. They may have something although I don't know if they
would be any good or not. http://www.bltsupplies.com/sboopost.html
Rae
--
R. McKenna
****************************************************************************
***************************************************************************
Visit our on-line Store
http://www.martialartssupply.on.ca
****************************************************************************
***************************************************************************
Or our Web pages at
http://members.tripod.com/Whizzie/london_martial_arts_supply.htm
****************************************************************************
***************************************************************************
"DougŽ" <sokolista...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ekmluk1cpubc52kb...@4ax.com...
> Again, I ask, where can one find a good video for teaching the
> use of a wing chun dummy?
>
> DougŽ
tjiit
> The Wing Chun Kuen/Weng Shun Kuen dummy was specifically designed to train
> WCK/WSK techniques. More specifically it is designed to correct your
> WCK/WSK STANCE while doing your hand and foot-techniques. It has NO USE
> for other styles. It isn't some kind of universal training-apparatus like
> a sand-bag or something like that. So again; If you are NOT training
> WCK/WSK, training on a Mook Yong is a waste of time.
Uh, really? Why are then there some styles which use the Mook Yong for
practice too?
- tjiit
--
telnet to Discordia BBS 216.87.206.21
hal
>The Wing Chun Kuen/Weng Shun Kuen dummy was specifically designed to train
>WCK/WSK techniques. More specifically it is designed to correct your WCK/WSK
>STANCE while doing your hand and foot-techniques. It has NO USE for other
>styles. It isn't some kind of universal training-apparatus like a sand-bag
>or something like that. So again; If you are NOT training WCK/WSK, training
>on a Mook Yong is a waste of time.
With all due respect, that may be your opinion, but it is most
certainly not true. I could teach a student to do drills for Karate
or Tae Kwon Do drills on a mook jong. It's just a training dummy,
that is all. Nothing at all about it's design would indicate that it
has no training application for other styles.
regards,
Hal
hal
>hal wrote in message news:<3d5a85bc....@news.blackfoot.net>...
>> On 14 Aug 2002 09:00:10 -0700, wrote:
>>
>> >would any one think that training with a wing chun dummy even though
>> >this is not your art form would be an effective method of training?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> The point of a jong is to allow the practioner to practice applying
>> force to resilient, stationary objects to more realistically simulate
>> striking hard body parts. It is good for practicing combination
>> techniques and toughing hands and forearms. But, wooden men don't hit
>> back, so it in itself is not a complete training tool. You still need
>> live drills.
>>
>> Hal
>
>Thanks for the input Hal. Which art do you practice? You seem to be
>quite knowledgable.
Thanks. I've studied various styles on and off for years. Mostly Tae
Kwon Do, and have always been lucky to find excellent dojangs. I've
also studied Wing Chun for a couple of years (hence my exposure to the
jong), Shotokan, Kyokoshin, Judo, and Hapkido. I always kept going
back to TKD partly because of it was usually all that was around
(small towns), and I was very fortunate to have met some outstanding
TKD masters. I am presently still on the road to recovery from a
ruptured ACL surgery, so am only study Hal Fu. I've always loved the
jong as the most realistic artificial training dummy I've ever seen.
I use it for practicing all kinds of techniques, not just WC.
I'm in the process of building my own with an added dimension: four
oak arms (in an X) , two legs, on a pivoting six foot tall log. Still
working out some problems with my mounting of it all to ensure proper
pivoting, but hopefully when finished, it will be a wooden man that
will hit back if one is not very careful. ; )
>I studied as a late teen early twenties, but
>eventually started smoking and quit. Now I quit smoking and decided
>i;m going to study Shoalin do.
Good for you. Quiting smoking is good. Getting back to practicing
even better. Keep it up. Keep in touch.
Hal
Wudangkuen
enough to name Jeet Kune Do.
Wudangkuen
tjiit <tj...@yahoo.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
ajgti7$m9t$07$1...@news.t-online.com...
Phillip Inoy
> The Wing Chun Kuen/Weng Shun Kuen dummy was specifically designed to train
> WCK/WSK techniques. More specifically it is designed to correct your WCK/WSK
> STANCE while doing your hand and foot-techniques. It has NO USE for other
> styles. It isn't some kind of universal training-apparatus like a sand-bag
> or something like that. So again; If you are NOT training WCK/WSK, training
> on a Mook Yong is a waste of time.
>
> Regards,
Wudangkuen
Personally, I can attest to the sticky and explosive training from
short distances that I get from using the mook yan jong. Very useful
in bagua or close fighting. I further disagree with your notion that
it is for stance training vis-a-vis hand and foot techniques. It
really trains that ALONG with speed as well as hardening the hand from
years of punching light medium aor hard.
It's almost as if your saying that only a taiji player can use a jian,
or a only a cowboy should use a bowie, otherwise it doesn't make
sense. Remember the famous chinese axiom.. 'its a good fist if it
wins' Having an MYJ is as good of tool in anyones arsenal as a knife
or gun is as far as it's usability by anyone is concerned.
AS for your website link. How can you possibly claim Zhang San Feng is
the progenitor of your system when you don't know the first 3 people
underneath him. There is NO causal link between ANYONE in WUDANG and
your current modern day system.
Finally, as a bachelor of arts in East Asian Literature and History
with an emphasis on Chinese and Korean cultures and languages are
concerned I gadda tell ya a couple of things about your net-nick as
well as your school's name.
First, Wing Chun is a southern art that has its origins in and around
the provinces of Canton. Thusly the language is Cantonese.
Wu Dang is a pinyin romanization of a MANDARIN pronunciation, not a
cantonese one. In fact, Cantonese is romanazed by wade-giles primarily
and is pronounced by Cantonese as Mu Tong.
Finally, the word for art form or 'style' in the generic sense in
Mandarin Pinyin is quan(pronounced 'quan') In Cantonese/Wade Giles it
is pronounced "pai"
If you are going to use Wudang in your name or the school's name then
PLEASE
for the SAKE OF CREDIBILITY say EITHER:
1)Mu Tong Pai or (Kuen, which means 'fist' incidentally).
OROROROROROROROR!!!!!
2)Wu Dang Quan
One CANNOT say wudangkuen...it makes you and your system look
extremely undereducated.
Why should ANYONE spend as much time as you or anyone would claim a
wudang art takes when you guys have the NERVE to NOT do the research
necessary to NAME YOURSELVES CORRECTLY, lie/misrepresent about your
lineage, and spend a third or the space on your website talking
about...you guessed it
SIU NIM TAO.
Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
Look, everyone knows that the Buddhist Nun Ng Mui and here senior
student Yim Wing Chun were the progenitors of the system.
It is a fine system, Wing Chun, that is. This "weng Shun" is your
spelling and no one elses. All cantonese is romanized in Oxford's
Wade-Giles due to the British influence.
I am sure Wing Chun's true lineage has been published on someone's
website so I won't reprint it here.
But, for the record, WudangKUEN(haahahahahahahahahahah) You are silly
and don't know a fuggin thing about 'weng shun' hahahahah.
Frankly, you trying to categorically deny the functionality of mook
yan jong without having the authority and prerequisite knowledge of
Wing Chun yourself makes you look like an IDIOT who SHOULD not be
listened to. Stop sounding like your an authority on how or why to use
the mook yan jong...you don't even know how to spell your own net-nick
and your own school can't spell its name right.
Stupid,
Phillip J. Inoy
PS: Ving Tsun is also an acceptable spelling since it's from Dr.Leung
Ting and it actually sounds a little closer to the Cantonese ear.
Read Yip Chun's books on Wing Chun, 118 Wooden Dummy techniques by Yip
Man, Wing Chun by William Cheung and Dr. Leung Ting's books.
After that, come back and post something...until then do yourself a
favor and ban yourself until you know something.
Good Luck,
Phillip J. Inoy
DougŽ
scribbled with their crayola:
>Doug
>Try these people. They may have something although I don't know if they
>would be any good or not. http://www.bltsupplies.com/sboopost.html
>Rae
Thanx!
Doug®
harveyc
> extremely undereducated.
> Why should ANYONE spend as much time as you or anyone would claim a
> wudang art takes when you guys have the NERVE to NOT do the research
> necessary to NAME YOURSELVES CORRECTLY, lie/misrepresent about your
> lineage, and spend a third or the space on your website talking
> about...you guessed it
>
> SIU NIM TAO.
>
> Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
> YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
>
??
Actually, Siu Lam Do would be "Shaolin Way" in Cantonese. The characters
for Sui Lim (Nim) Tao are translated literally as "Minor Idea." However, a
more workable English translation would be "Basic Concepts" -- a typically
direct and no-nonsense name for the first WC form.
As someone who also has a degree in Asian Studies, I agree with the rest of
your post.
Wudang Quan, Wu Tang Ch'uan or Mo Dong Kuen are acceptible, but what the
heck is Wudangkuen or Weng Shun?
Do you think we'll get a reply?
cheers,
hc
harveyc
"harveyc" <harveyc9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GL%69.154883$f05.8...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
>
> "Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.02081...@posting.google.com...
> > One CANNOT say wudangkuen...it makes you and your system look
> > extremely undereducated.
> > Why should ANYONE spend as much time as you or anyone would claim a
> > wudang art takes when you guys have the NERVE to NOT do the research
> > necessary to NAME YOURSELVES CORRECTLY, lie/misrepresent about your
> > lineage, and spend a third or the space on your website talking
> > about...you guessed it
> >
> > SIU NIM TAO.
> >
> > Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
> > YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
Hey Phil,
I see what you mean now after looking at the site. How can WC be Wudang if
the first WC form is called "The Shaolin Way?" This doesn't make sense.
Also, in other lineages such as Yuen Kay San
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_siulientao.shtml,
the first form is called Siu Lien Tao, with "Lien" meaning "practice."
Thusly, Siu Lien Tao means "Basic" or "Introductory Practice."
hc
tjiit
>
> Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
> YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
As far as I know it means 'little idea'. Am I wrong?
tjiit
> > SIU NIM TAO.
>>
>> Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
>> YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
>
> As far as I know it means 'little idea'. Am I wrong?
>
> - tjiit
Oh, forget it. It's already answered below.
- moritz
Wudangkuen
To be precise, the spelling in Mandarin should be Mo Dong YongChun Quan.
Yes, I know. This name has also been used by practitioners of my style in
the past. You are a really BAD reader. The spelling I use is NOT Siu Nim Tao
but Sil Lum Tao. On the site it is stated that the red-junk opera people
(they, not I) believed their style originated from Shaolin (and YES, just
like you, I know a zillion ways to spell Shaolin too..). Also, in Chinese
folklore most people believe that Shaolin knowledge was brought to Wudang
(Wu-Tang, Mu Chung, Whatever) and started the new style there. Who does
REALLY know? Certainly not YOU, wich is PAINFULLY plain to see. Before the
current grandmaster of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen the style was plainly called
Weng Shun Kuen (or Weng Chun Kuen). But to distinguish the style from other
Weng Chun Kuen families, the name Wudang was attached. Even though my
grandmaster's master was Cantonese, he told him to spell it Wudang, because
everybody in modern China KNOWS what this pronounciation stands for. No
matter what dialect is spoken, the Chinese ALL read the same characters. The
character we use is universally understood by ALL of them. They don't give a
SHIT about you and me quarreling about its pronounciation!!
Do you know that in China there are MORE styles calling themselves WENG
SH/CHUN KUEN than WING CHUN KUEN and that at one time Yip Man was accused of
making up the name WIng Chun Kuen! Yeah, just like what you're trying to
accuse my style of now! Talking about utter ignorance! Whoah, I'm impressed!
Maybe you should talk to some people of the Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen lineage
(http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chisim/index.shtml)or maybe to the people of
Chan Yiu Min lineage (http://www.wengchunsanjoang.com/hist.html). No, it is
YOU who should inform himself before starting calling people names.
And everybody in Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen LAUGHS at your totally
BACKWARD idea about a who never excisted starting the system. It is YOU who
is making a complete and utter ASS of yourself with your childish fantasies.
Dream on, my friend.
Nobody knows for sure who originated the style and we of Weng Shun Kuen are
willing to admit it. That is why our family-tree isn't complete. But go
ahead and laugh your head off, if you have nothing more important in your
life. If you would have been a little more sympathetic I would have least
felt some pity for you..
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
Ps,
Thanks for making me laugh.
Phillip Inoy <deber...@ziplip.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
97b3a9dd.02081...@posting.google.com...
Wudangkuen
"And everybody in Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen LAUGHS at your totally
BACKWARD idea about a NUN who never excisted starting the system. It is YOU
who
is making a complete and utter ASS of yourself with your childish fantasies.
Dream on, my friend."
And to those who don't know; "Weng Shun Kuen" means "Everlasting/perpetual
spring fist", while the pronounciation "Wing Chun Kuen" means something like
"Praise spring fist".
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
Wudangkuen <wudan...@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
1029496395.35208@cache2...
Wudangkuen
Another point in wich you show your silly lack of information is that it
ISN'T Dr. Leung Ting who spells his style Ving Tsun Kuen. That would be the
Ving Tsun Atlethic Association, the official institute of Yip Man's lineage.
It is also used by Wong Shun Leung's and Victor Khan's schools a.o. No, if
you really dug into the info before opening your big mouth you would have
known that Leung uses the (patented) spelling Wing Tsun Kuen. In Chinese
writing, by the way, it is all written in the same characters. The way of
writing Wing Chun in English is determined by Bruce Lee, the first Cantonese
to publish articles and a book on the style. Yip Man's people only write
Ving Chun because they didn't want to be known as "WC-men" (water closet-
men). The name Weng Shun Kuen is probably a 150 or 200 years OLDER than the
name Wing Chun Kuen!
I am done argueing with people like you. I joined this forum to put in
something POSITIVE. I am here to help people with the knowledge I possess.
You may doubt my knowledge. Other people don't.
Have an interesting life.
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chisim/index.shtml
http://www.wengchunsanjoang.com/hist.html
http://members.tripod.com/alandnay/
http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/chi_sim/index.php
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/readings/index.shtml
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems/index.shtml
Ps,
The following is taken from an article by Rene Ritchie. He is a co-writer of
the magnificent book 'Complete Wing Chun'.
I quote;
"Results of my latest
research/thinking/pondering/speculating/etc..(special thanks to RC &
YM)
into Wing Chun's genesis and evolution. It may be close, it may be
way
off. As always, feedback is appreciated (best way for me to learn 8)
Note: Due to the revolutionary activities of the time, many people
hid
their identities behind nicknames and fictitious archetypal
characters,
or the names of real, but unconnected historical figures. Since its
so
far very difficult to sort this stuff out, I'll use the common
legendary
figures for this piece.
In the mid 17th century, the Manchurians invaded China, overthrowing
the
Ming Dynasty and beginning the Qing Dynasty. The Shaolin Temples in
Henan and Fujian became focal points for the anti-Qing movements and
their renowned fighting styles began to be devoloped in order to
fight
in the rebellions. Due to exchange and common purpose, Wudang and
Emei
methods were integrated. A revolutionary motto was "Weng Yin Chi Ji"
(Always speak with determination), "Mo Mong Hong Juk" (Don't forget
the
Han Nation), "Dai Day Wu Chun" (Again will return Spring), which
eventually became condensed to simply Weng Chun (Always Spring). Due
to
traitors in Shaolin, the Manchu's learned Shaolin's fighting methods
and
so they needed new techniques in order to fight off the Qing. They
began
to work on new, more effective ways to use and pass along their
skills,
and on techniques which could counter the martial arts of the
invaders.
In the early 18th century, a monk named Yat Chum (Yi Chen) left
Henan
Shaolin and journeyed to Mt. Heng in Hunan where he established a
monastary and began teaching the revolutionary Shaolin. One of his
students was Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu), a member of the Hunanese Opera
deeply
involved in the revolutionary movement. Cheung Ng became known as
"Tan
Sao" Ng ("Spread Open Arm" Ng) due to his peerless skill with that
technique. In around the 1730s, Cheung Ng was forced to flee south
due
to his revolutionary activities, and ended up in Foshan, Guangdong.
There, he organized members of the Hung Suen (Red Junk) Opera Troups
into the Hung Fa Wui Kwoon (Red Flower Union) and taught them his
knowledge of Opera and the Northern revolutionary Shaolin.
In around the mid 18th century, Henan Shaolin was destroyed by the
Qing
and the survivors were forced to flee. The monk Jee Sin (Zhi Shan)
travelled to Fujian Shaolin, and continued the development of the
revolutionary styles, probably blending the Northern and Southern
influences. "Dai Dong Fung" ("Great East Wind") also more then
likely
fled Henan at this point.
In the late 18th century, Jee Sin taught students such as Hung
Hay-Gung
(who went on to found the Hung Ga Kuen (Hung Family Fist) style) in
the
Weng Chun hall (more then likely named after the Weng Chun motto).
Later, Yim Yee (Yan Er, also sometimes called Yim Say or Yim
Sum-Leung)
became a disciple of Fujian Shaolin and learned the revolutionary
styles
and techniques being developed there, including Bak Hok Kuen (White
Crane Boxing), one of the most refined and advanced systems. Yim Yee
took a local wife and went on to have a daughter whom he named Yim
Wing-Chun (Yan Yongchun), (after the Weng Chun motto/hall, possibly
changing the character from Weng (Always) to Wing (Praise) which
better
suited a lady's name?).
At around the same time, a monk at the temple named Bak Mei
developed
the style which came to carry his name, White Eyebrow from
Huxingquan
(Tiger Shape Boxing).
At around the turn of the 19th century, the Qing destroyed the
Fujian
Shaolin Temple, and again the survivors were forced to flee.
Jee Sin travelled around, teaching students he hoped would go on to
train others and spread the revolutionary styles so that one day the
Qing could be overthrown. In order to hide the Shaolin name, he
called
the art(s) he taught Weng Chun Kuen (Always Spring Boxing) in honor
of
the revolutionary motto and the hall where he had taught. Hearing of
the
Hung Suen, like Cheung Ng had before him, Jee Sin sought them out.
The
Hung Suen had become a hot bed of revolutionary activity. Since they
could move around easily, and the heavy make-up some wore could
desguise
their features, they were an ideal place to seek refuge. Jee Sin
spent
some time with the Hung Suen and taught his Weng Chun to performers
such
as Wong Wah-Bo (Huang Huabao), Leung Yee-Tai (Liang Erdi), "Dai Fa
Min"
Kam ("Painted Face" Kam), "Go Lo" Chung ("Tall Guy" Chung), Leung
Lan-Kwai (Liang Langui) and others, including his famed 6 1/2 Point
Pole
method. Its likely they also learned the prototypical loose
techniques
designed to overcome the Manchu's Shaolin knowledge and the
prototypical
refined structures and concepts meant to give the revolutionary a
theoretical/technical advantage."
Badger Jones
> > SIU NIM TAO.
>>
>> Everyone here knows that siu nim tao is cantonese for 'Shaolin way'
>> YOU EVEN SAY SO ON YOUR WEBSITE!!!!~!!!!!!!
>
>As far as I know it means 'little idea'. Am I wrong?
You are correct. 'Shaolin Way' in Cantonese would be Romanized as
Siu Lim (or Lam) Tao. Close, but no cigar.
There is some vague speculation that the Beautiful Springtime in WC's
name is poetically linked with Young Forest in Shaolin.
Badger Jones
www.cyberus.ca/~badger
"I've come the conclusion that no story cannot be improved upon with a good
cratering." - Ted MacKinnon
YourNME
harveyc
> Nice try, I must admit.
>
> To be precise, the spelling in Mandarin should be Mo Dong YongChun Quan.
You don't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese, do you?
Mandarin: Wudang Yong Chun Quan (pinyin); Wu Tang Yung Ch'un Ch'uan
(Wade-Giles)
Cantonese: Mo Dong Wing Chun Kuen
This is what Phil was getting at. Your school name is mixing up two
different dialects.
No
> matter what dialect is spoken, the Chinese ALL read the same characters.
The
> character we use is universally understood by ALL of them. They don't give
a
> SHIT about you and me quarreling about its pronounciation!!
But if you use romanization to represent the language, you need to do it
properly. Try consulting someone with a degree or a background in sinology.
hc
harveyc
> Nice try, I must admit.
>
> To be precise, the spelling in Mandarin should be Mo Dong YongChun Quan.
See this: http://lcweb.loc.gov/catdir/pinyin/romcover.html
hc
Phillip Inoy
> Nice try, I must admit.
>
> To be precise, the spelling in Mandarin should be Mo Dong YongChun Quan.
authoritative knowledge at all about the Chinese language; I speak and
write it
however. In MANDARIN it is Wudang Quan. Wudang does NOT EVER claim to
have wing chun, 'WENG SHUN' or whatever. Furthermore Mu Tong is
CANTONESE FOR THE LAST TIME...PLease read the posts BEFORE you respond
blindly. If you fight as poorly as you argue, then you SUCK regardless
of your style or how you spell it!
> Yes, I know. This name has also been used by practitioners of my style in
> the past. You are a really BAD reader.
> The spelling I use is NOT Siu Nim Tao
>but Sil Lum Tao.
There is no meaning difference; the Chinese and most Asian cultures
treat L's R's aand N's interchangeably when they attempt to write in
English. They sound similar to them...e.g. "that's Fried Rice you
PLick"(Lethal Weapon 4)
On the site it is stated that the red-junk opera people
> (they, not I) believed their style originated from Shaolin (and YES, just
> like you, I know a zillion ways to spell Shaolin too..).
For the record the CORRECT mandarin way to spell Shaolin is Xiaolin.
"Shaolin" is Wade Giles, not Pinyin, but still acceptable due to it's
historical usage.
>Also, in Chinese folklore most people believe that Shaolin knowledge
was >brought to Wudang (Wu-Tang, Mu Chung, Whatever) and started the
new style >there. Who does REALLY know? Certainly not YOU, wich is
PAINFULLY plain to see.
First, Most people DON'T think this although there is SOME folklore
and a bad Gordon Liu movie "Shaolin vs.Wu Tang" that claims this.
However, this is neither germain to the topic at hand or the original
topic about styles or stylists using muk yan jong to train.
>Who does REALLY know? Certainly not YOU, which is PAINFULLY plain to
see.
Yes, you are correct. I do not know who originated YOUR version of
"WENG SHUN" (hahahahah) but that is YOUR responsibility. YOUR schools
website CLAIMS Zhang San Feng (TaijiQuan's founder) as YOUR SYSTEM's
originator yet CANNOT substantiate it in ANY way... I call that fraud.
Yet the lie is so poor since even your school admits that MOST of it's
earlier lineage is UNKNOWN!!! LOOK AT YOUR OWN WEBSITE!!
Before the
> current grandmaster of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen the style was plainly called
> Weng Shun Kuen (or Weng Chun Kuen).
>But to distinguish the style from other
> Weng Chun Kuen families, the name Wudang was attached.
Ahh no doubt to BOOST the claims that "WENG SHUN"(hahahahahah) was
some esoteric internal art with magical powers. Your system wished to
align itself with the power that Wudang obviously possessed, as well
as the reputation that came with it.
Even though my
> grandmaster's master was Cantonese, he told him to spell it Wudang, because
> everybody in modern China KNOWS what this pronounciation stands for.
Ok, suppose I believe this, then your nick, for the sake of
consistency AND credibility should be "WuDangQuan!!" NOT "WudangKuen"
Your school does the same thing and no doubt that's where you got it.
Change it to either Cantonese or Mandarin and pick a system of
romanization(Pinyin or Wade-Giles) and stick with it! Silly, you are
just plain silly. Undereducated too.,,but then again, not everyone
here on RMA has degrees in 2 East Asian Languages, a minor in
Linguistics,etc.
> No matter what dialect is spoken, the Chinese ALL read the same characters. The
> character we use is universally understood by ALL of them. They don't give a
> SHIT about you and me quarreling about its pronounciation!!
Silly rabbit! Yes they all read the same characters, but we Americans
and the Irish do as well and I don't understand a fuckin thing they're
saying once they use gaeltacht! Again a silly argument full of the
standard, uneducated logical fallacies.
>
> Do you know that in China there are MORE styles calling themselves WENG
> SH/CHUN KUEN than WING CHUN KUEN and that at one time Yip Man was accused of
> making up the name WIng Chun Kuen!
Boy, you are quite stupid aren't you? Yip Man and his peers and
seniors were functionally illiterate in English so were not given to
'Romanizing" their martial arts name. Their students and Dr. Leung
Ting were an exception. They usualyy wrote Wing Chun unless it was
Leung Ting and 'VingTsun'
They all spoke Cantonese and sometimes Mandarin, depending on whether
they could afford a classical education. Yet they did all write the
same characters. However a martial artist from Beijing would have a
very difficult time conversing with a Cantonese speaker and vice versa
due to the dialectical differences. So what if they write the same? It
has little relevance here.
Yeah, just like what you're trying to
> accuse my style of now! Talking about utter ignorance! Whoah, I'm impressed!
> Maybe you should talk to some people of the Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen lineage
> (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/chisim/index.shtml)or maybe to the people of
> Chan Yiu Min lineage (http://www.wengchunsanjoang.com/hist.html). No, it is
> YOU who should inform himself before starting calling people names.
Yawn, not only are you trolling but doing so in quite the boring
manner. YAWN!
>
> And everybody in Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen LAUGHS at your totally
> BACKWARD idea about a who never excisted starting the system. It is YOU who
> is making a complete and utter ASS of yourself with your childish fantasies.
> Dream on, my friend.
NO I never said that someone who didn't exist created Wing Chun or
"WENG SHUN"(chuckle) I said, essentially, that ZHANG SAN FENG DIDN'T
create it. Again PLEASE READ THE POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING. TO do so
otherwise makes you a boring imbecile whose only real function, and I
mean this in the most sincere way possible, is to slake your thirst
with the sweat of your own balls. You are a dog.
>
> Nobody knows for sure who originated the style and we of Weng Shun Kuen are
> willing to admit it. That is why our family-tree isn't complete. But go
> ahead and laugh your head off, if you have nothing more important in your
> life. If you would have been a little more sympathetic I would have least
> felt some pity for you..
I wasn't really laughing I was originally wondering WHY you would be
SO ADAMANT at trying to convince everyone here that MYJ's are only for
"WENG SHUN" (chuckle) stylists and their stance practice.
If in your "family tree" you skipped a few more recently elected
grandmasters I would have worried less. Yet you basically have NO idea
at all and just threw Zhang San Feng's name at the top of you "family
tree" to add credence to an art that has nothing to do with internal
arts AT all. It is a Xiaolin art, since the core is Siu Lum(Nim) Tao.
Accept it.
I see no further reason to post on this matter, I fucking build muk
yan jongs and will use them how I wish. Neither this imbecile nor
anyone from his MOST QUESTIONABLE lineage should tell anyone
otherwise. Yes, you have the right to free speech....and you're using
it to destroy what ittle credibility you've ever had.
Phillip J. Inoy
Wudangkuen
I think that the problem here is that you can hardly write down ANY of the
Chinese dialect down in English. Even the difference in pronounciation
between Weng Shun Kuen (Everlasting Springtime Fist) and Wing Chun Kuen
(Springtime Song Fist) can't be accurately written down. Even in my own
language, Dutch, I know some words that you will never be able to re-produce
right. I have Chinese friends and students who agree with the school's
spelling of how they speak. They say " We don't say Wu-Tang. That means
PRAWN." We Dutch don't always agree with the way English tries to standarise
Chinese. Sometimes, the sounds in our language come closer. And sometimes
not.
But my reaction to this ego-on legs was mostly due to him accusing me of
knowing nothing about my style, saying that I made up the spelling, laughing
at me and calling me names. And then I counted the mistakes HE piled up in
just one mail. After this, if I were him, I would be SO embarressed to never
show my face ANYWHERE again! It's anybodies right to say "Hey, to my opinion
something's not right here. How come?" But I just CANT understand why you
have to immidiately start to accuse, insult and laugh at somebody. That's SO
CHEAP! Not to mention dumb beyond words. It's a good thing people like this
tend to talk too much. They take themselves down so quickly anybody else
doesn't have to take action.
Regards,
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
harveyc <harveyc9...@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
VJc79.155952$Ag2.8...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
harveyc
> Hi,
>
> I think that the problem here is that you can hardly write down ANY of the
> Chinese dialect down in English.
Not true at all. Phil and I are telling you that there are two very precise
transcription methods recognised worldwide -- the Wade-Giles system and the
pinyin system. The pinyin system is the official transcription method
developed by mainland China.
Even the difference in pronounciation
> between Weng Shun Kuen (Everlasting Springtime Fist) and Wing Chun Kuen
> (Springtime Song Fist) can't be accurately written down.
Yes it can, as Phil and I have both demonstrated. How do you think people
outside of China learn to speak Mandarin? They use pinyin!
"Weng Shun" is gibberish; no offense.
Even in my own
> language, Dutch, I know some words that you will never be able to
re-produce
> right. I have Chinese friends and students who agree with the school's
> spelling of how they speak. They say " We don't say Wu-Tang. That means
> PRAWN." We Dutch don't always agree with the way English tries to
standarise
> Chinese.
It's NOT English. It's pinyin. Even though the English alphabet is used,
the sounds that pinyin represents are Chinese sounds. It's a Chinese
phonetic alphabet.
Take a Mandarin class or ask a Mandarin teacher.
Sometimes, the sounds in our language come closer. And sometimes
> not.
>
> But my reaction to this ego-on legs
Phil may have been a bit unsympathetic, but your own ego is clouding the
issue. Two people with university degrees in the subject are telling you
that your use of romanization is wrong and you still don't accept it.
How old are you exactly?
was mostly due to him accusing me of
> knowing nothing about my style, saying that I made up the spelling,
laughing
> at me and calling me names.
That still doesn't change the fact that your spelling is wrong. It's not a
personal attack. Deal with it.
Once again, these are the precise spellings recognized worldwide: Wudang
Yong Chun Quan (pinyin); Wu Tang Yung Ch'un Ch'uan (Wade-Giles).
As Confucius might say, "A ruler's main task is the rectification of names."
Rectify yours.
hc
Phillip Inoy
> Hi,
>
> I think that the problem here is that you can hardly write down ANY of the
> Chinese dialect down in English. Even the difference in pronounciation
> between Weng Shun Kuen (Everlasting Springtime Fist) and Wing Chun Kuen
> (Springtime Song Fist) can't be accurately written down. Even in my own
> language, Dutch, I know some words that you will never be able to re-produce
> right. I have Chinese friends and students who agree with the school's
> spelling of how they speak. They say " We don't say Wu-Tang. That means
> PRAWN." We Dutch don't always agree with the way English tries to standarise
> Chinese. Sometimes, the sounds in our language come closer. And sometimes
> not.
Not even remotely germain to the topic at hand. You seem to have
trouble with keeping up with multiple lines of argumentation so let me
clarify:
1) Being ADAMANT that other styles or other stylists CANNOT use Muk
Yan Jong to practise with and that it is useless to do so. This was
inane at best and embarrassingly stupid to say the least.
2) Your inconsistencies in the usage of romanized Chinese as a
barometer for both your credibility in your art of "WENG SHUN" and the
credibility OF the art of "Weng Shun" as opposed to "Wing Chun" and
its standard lineage as a Xiaolin system under Ng Mui, Yim Wing
Chun(Beautiful Springtime), her husband, etc.
3) Your lineage:
Chang Shan Feng
(Founder of Wudang Kuen)
¯
Unknown
¯
(Jee Shim?)
¯
Unknown
¯
Cheung Ng
¯
Unknown
¯
Leung Shum Dit (A.K.A. "Sun Kam"?)
¯
Fong Shil Ching
¯
Hon Wah Sheun
¯
Lin Yi
¯
Rien Bul
¯ ¯ ¯
Ivar Emmaneel (The Netherlands) Frank Emmaneel (The Netherlands) Ian
Garbett
(Australia)
This is not a lineage. This is the WORST ATTEMPT at attaching claims
of Wu Dang abilities to a small Xiaolin art I've EVER seen. It's the
only example I've ever seen, actually. Xiaolin has a fine tradition,
why deny it? Why be so clearly fraudulent and so BAD at it at the same
time?
Let me define BAD: When you claim a very famous patriarch of internal
MA and then the top HALF or your lineage is UNKNOWN...that is BAD!!!
It's not even fraud unless someone would actually believe this drivel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> But my reaction to this ego-on legs was mostly due to him accusing me of
> knowing nothing about my style, saying that I made up the spelling, laughing
> at me and calling me names.
You deserved all of this and in spades too. Next time you post on
usenet you should realize that many of us are probably older than you,
smarter than you and probably even better than you...some of us are
better than you in your own art.
>And then I counted the mistakes HE piled up in
> just one mail.
Occasionally I too make mistakes, this is not one of those times.
Everyone posting on this thread seems to agree with me. :-)
>After this, if I were him, I would be SO embarressed to never
> show my face ANYWHERE again!
Ok look. Saying something like this implies that if you were ever at
fault in an argument that you would be too embarrassed to show up ever
again in any martial arts circle. You said this, not me.
I feel like Hestia speaking to Shylock here but here goes: You've
embarrassed yourself beyond words. You have been weighed, measured,
and found most wanting....for pounds of flesh to be exact. Don't show
up on usenet again you silly nutslaking fuck.
Wing chun is a wonderful martial art and has a wonderful lineage, it
is too bad that people like you and yours are acting as a cyst, a
cancerous cyst upon that tradition.
Sincerely,
Phillip J. Inoy
BTW: HC did a fantastically lucid job of explaining to you why you are
incorrect also.....get the hint YOU ARE WRONG and about a great many
things.
Chas
> 1) Being ADAMANT that other styles or other stylists CANNOT use Muk
> Yan Jong to practise with and that it is useless to do so. This was
> inane at best and embarrassingly stupid to say the least.
Unless he's talking about a very specific conformation of the training
dummy, he really should know that there were/are a wide range of
articulated and immobile training aids used in a wide variety of arts.
Some are movable weight training devices, some teach reaction skills,
some train specific techniques, and some are useful for a wide range
of applications.
The movement towards 'westernized' training devices is mostly because
they're easily available. If you're going to make your own
'traditional' equipment, you've got to invest in augers, drawknife,
spokeshave, stone dressing tools. It's hard to make them for sale,
because crating and shipping them is nearly as expensive as making
them.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403
ch...@kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://chasclements.tripod.com/index.htm
Wudangkuen
Even though I don't agree with a lot of things you're saying, I DO
appreciate what you are trying to do. I even thank you for it. As for Phil,
with his attitude he will NEVER reach anyone. I can't believe anyone who
talks this way to people he doesn't know has a degree. Or did they give it
to him to get rid of him? I don't know why he hhas a grudge against me. But
I can handle those types. I have been training this "gibberish" style since
I was 8. I am 35 now. Seems Phil likes Leung Ting. Both you guys should read
his "Roots and branches of Wing Tsun". Then we'll talk again. But I won't
answer Phil's posts. It is no use talking to people who don't listen.
Best regards,
Wudangkuen
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen
harveyc <harveyc9...@hotmail.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
DLp79.160854$f05.9...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Wudangkuen
harveyc
> Hi,
>
> Even though I don't agree with a lot of things you're saying, I DO
> appreciate what you are trying to do. I even thank you for it. As for
Phil,
> with his attitude he will NEVER reach anyone. I can't believe anyone who
> talks this way to people he doesn't know has a degree.
Like it or not, he has one (and so do I). Listen to the message even if you
dislike the messenger.
Or did they give it
> to him to get rid of him? I don't know why he hhas a grudge against me.
But
> I can handle those types. I have been training this "gibberish" style
I didn't mean your style. I'm not even commenting on your claims of
lineage. I only meant that the spelling is gibberish. There are two
transcription styles -- the older Wage-Giles and the newer and official
pinyin system. I suggest that you choose one or the other and keep it
consistent.
There is nothing for you to disagree with here. The transcription methods
exist and if you are not using them, then your spelling is gibberish.
If you want people to take your style seriously, you need to correct the
name. Like I said, ask a Mandarin teacher or a professor in sinology.
That's all.
hc