Samurai Flower Gardening
KLogan2026
please redirect me to a more appropriate newsgroup(just give me the name
please.
I know that Samurai practiced poetry, water-color painting and needlepoint. And
I know what a sand garden is. What I'd like to know is: Did Samurai ever do
flower gardening? If so, what kind of flowers? If I wanted to study and
practice this art, how would I go about it? What books would you recommend. Any
advice or guidance would be appreciated.
Also, if anyone knows if there is a newsgroup devoted to Bushido or Samurai,
please let me know what it is by name so I can add it to my newsgroups.
If anybody knows anything, please e-mail me at kloga...@aol.com
Thank you for your time.
Rick Logan
kloga...@aol.com
Chaplain-X
KLogan2026 <kloga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011229041416...@mb-cl.aol.com...
Do a search on traditional Japanese gardening/techniques, I've seen books on
it although not on Samurai specifically, neat stuff.
X
Chas
> Do a search on traditional Japanese gardening/techniques, I've seen books on
> it although not on Samurai specifically, neat stuff.
'Samurai' was a class status- as such, 'samurai arts' would be those
things practiced by the class as an art form. Members of that class
would have been expected to have an aesthete that appreciated certain
things; image, sculpture, poetry, tea, the dance, an instrument,
perfumes, the theatre.
Directing a garden along 'art' principles would have been expected of
a person of that class. The cultivation of various sorts of trees
(small ones, potted ones, transplantation) would have been more
personal- arranging flowers for the house or temple would have been
expected, but probably not the cultivation itself.
--
Chas
Free Steve Gartin!
http://www.cafepress.com/gartin
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Chaplain-X
Chas <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C2DF3D1...@attbi.com...
> Chaplain-X wrote:
> > Do a search on traditional Japanese gardening/techniques, I've seen
books on
> > it although not on Samurai specifically, neat stuff.
>
> 'Samurai' was a class status- as such, 'samurai arts' would be those
> things practiced by the class as an art form. Members of that class
> would have been expected to have an aesthete that appreciated certain
> things; image, sculpture, poetry, tea, the dance, an instrument,
> perfumes, the theatre.
From what I understand they had a very inclusive set of ettiquette,
something not often found as broad ranging in todays society, at least not
in my part of the world.
> Directing a garden along 'art' principles would have been expected of
> a person of that class. The cultivation of various sorts of trees
> (small ones, potted ones, transplantation) would have been more
> personal- arranging flowers for the house or temple would have been
> expected, but probably not the cultivation itself.
> --
I did enjoy one of my former instructors Japanese inspired gardens, I
really enjoyed the "solitude" it offered me, even though the house was
surrounded by others, very relaxing in my perception, the running water was
awesome to listen to while relaxing in the hot tub, and the air always
seemed fresher in the garden, although I never saw any Samurai specific
gardening, more of like a Shinto/Zen theme I'm guessing.
X
Chas
> From what I understand they had a very inclusive set of ettiquette,
> something not often found as broad ranging in todays society, at least not
> in my part of the world.
Japanese are very ritualistic even now. In a very class driven
society, with a great number of people pushed together into a small
area, rituals are important because you're always dealing with
strangers. You see the visual display of a man's caste, you know
exactly how to treat him.
I think that one of the reasons for the escalation of personal
violence in a diverse society is that you don't know who you're
dealing with and, in many instances, have no means to find out.
> I did enjoy one of my former instructors Japanese inspired gardens, I
> really enjoyed the "solitude" it offered me, ......
One would have been of samurai caste in order to cultivate something
as useless as a formal garden. Remember that the ordinary Japanese was
learning to do high intensity vegetable cultivation just to eat-
I love the formalization- I have done some bonsai, some ikebana and
small area cultivation, some directing of trees and that sort of
thing. This area has a substantial Japanese population, and there are
many opportunities to see good work.
Chaplain-X
> Chaplain-X wrote:
> > From what I understand they had a very inclusive set of ettiquette,
> > something not often found as broad ranging in todays society, at least
not
> > in my part of the world.
>
> Japanese are very ritualistic even now. In a very class driven
> society, with a great number of people pushed together into a small
> area, rituals are important because you're always dealing with
> strangers. You see the visual display of a man's caste, you know
> exactly how to treat him.
Something I don't see much of around here, although some Polynesians have
some similar class distinctions I believe, but this is just speculative
because I'm not poly and they tend to keep their traditions/arts within the
family.
> I think that one of the reasons for the escalation of personal
> violence in a diverse society is that you don't know who you're
> dealing with and, in many instances, have no means to find out.
I think a lot of it has to do with the encouragement and developement of the
"self," as its own unique divisionary aspect from society, many people are
very uninvolved in community or in cultivation of broad based social
understanding in this day and age, thus they lack respect for others and
their differentiating distinctions so to speak. Add to the mix the
repetetive patronization of others due to the presumtion that their
perception is the all inclusive way to be correct and you got people locking
horns.
>
> > I did enjoy one of my former instructors Japanese inspired gardens, I
> > really enjoyed the "solitude" it offered me, ......
>
> One would have been of samurai caste in order to cultivate something
> as useless as a formal garden.
Because their social class wouldn't expect much more from them? I'm not that
knowledgable on this subject.
Remember that the ordinary Japanese was
> learning to do high intensity vegetable cultivation just to eat-
> I love the formalization-
I enjoy the composition mostly from what little I've seen, I believe the
balance is what I find so relaxing about it when I'm lounging in such.
I have done some bonsai, some ikebana and
> small area cultivation, some directing of trees and that sort of
> thing. This area has a substantial Japanese population, and there are
> many opportunities to see good work.
Nice, my gardening is very informal, but relaxing nonetheless, I typically
do a wide variety of variations spread throughout my property, I envy the
Tongans yard who live on my street, they have a very nice style of
gardening...
X
Kallini
Do a google search for "Ikebana".
Kallini
Chas
> Something I don't see much of around here, although some Polynesians have
> some similar class distinctions I believe, but this is just speculative
> because I'm not poly and they tend to keep their traditions/arts within the
> family.
lots of caste distinctions; 'badge'/no-badge, armed/unarmed, publicly
armed/concealed/attended by armed servants, Rolex/Timex,
Pierce-Arrow/Chevy, 'diamonds are forever/ cz's look just like them',
Rodeo Drive/rodeo driver.
> I think a lot of it has to do with the encouragement and developement of the
> "self," as its own unique divisionary aspect from society, many people are
> very uninvolved in community or in cultivation of broad based social
> understanding in this day and age, thus they lack respect for others and
> their differentiating distinctions so to speak. Add to the mix the
> repetetive patronization of others due to the presumtion that their
> perception is the all inclusive way to be correct and you got people locking
> horns.
People identify with their cliques- in the past it would have been
with their family/clan/sept or village. We, particularly in the USA,
have no 'community'. The closest that we've been drawn together has
been since the 9-11 attack; unique in my lifetime.
If I don't perceive a man to be part of my community, he descends one
level of social intimacy. While I might have an abstract social
responsibility to him, my personal responsibility is minimal. As the
groups become more factionalized, they develop animus or disregard for
others outside the group.
'Patriotism' has been so derided for thirty years that it seems odd to
us to have a loyalty beyond oneself and one's immediate
family/friends.
> > One would have been of samurai caste in order to cultivate something
> > as useless as a formal garden.
> Because their social class wouldn't expect much more from them? I'm not that
> knowledgable on this subject.
Because the Japanese nobility lived in such decadent splendor because
of the abject and squalid poverty they forced upon the rest of the
subordinate castes.
The rest of Japan would not have had access to all the things that are
necessary to indulge oneself in a formal garden.
S. McElvanney
at cutting it down ;)
meat
yes the samurai did practice gardening, the proper term being flower
arranging. it was a very zen influenced art, much like that of the tea
ceremony and calligraphy. try searching samurai history or flower
arranging
Chas
> yes the samurai did practice gardening, the proper term being flower
> arranging.
Flower arranging was done with the blooms brought by the girl who went
to the market, gathered them in the wild or tended the garden. I don't
believe I ever heard of a warrior puttering about, tilling the soil.
Flower arranging is not gardening.
Shuurai
>
>meat wrote:
>> yes the samurai did practice gardening, the proper term being flower
>> arranging.
>
>Flower arranging was done with the blooms brought by the girl who went
>to the market, gathered them in the wild or tended the garden. I don't
>believe I ever heard of a warrior puttering about, tilling the soil.
>Flower arranging is not gardening.
It would depend on the samurai, the period, and even the region. In some
circles, it would be considered in poor taste for someone of samurai status
to even utter the word "dirt" in public, let alone putter around in it.
In other circles, it would be perfectly acceptable. And in the later days of
the samurai, those guys had TONS of free time. That's part of the reason for
all the painting, poetry, and whatnot - as the role of the samurai dwindled,
life had to become rather boring.
Chas
> It would depend on the samurai, the period, and even the region.
Sure- it is in the nature of generalities to be general in nature.
There were men of samurai class who were potters too- still, it wasn't
a common thing and the exceptions are notable.
One might also differentiate between people of samurai class who
weren't warriors at all- women, older men and so on. Perhaps
cultivation was a pastime, but not much amongst bushi.
> .....And in the later days of
> the samurai, those guys had TONS of free time. That's part of the reason for
> all the painting, poetry, and whatnot - as the role of the samurai dwindled,
> life had to become rather boring.
They returned to the pursuits of the nobility of classical times
(pre-1400); poetry, calligraphy, perfumery, bonsai and so on- ikebana
was not a man's pursuit, by and large, from what I understand.
Shuurai
>
>Shuurai wrote:
>> It would depend on the samurai, the period, and even the region.
>
>Sure- it is in the nature of generalities to be general in nature.
Generally speaking.
>There were men of samurai class who were potters too- still, it wasn't
>a common thing and the exceptions are notable.
>One might also differentiate between people of samurai class who
>weren't warriors at all- women, older men and so on. Perhaps
>cultivation was a pastime, but not much amongst bushi.
True enough. I was merely saying that there was indeed a wide range of what
the samurai did or did not do.
The differences can be pretty surprising. I recall reading an
article from a student of the sword who was racalling how his teacher would
not lower himself to say the names of various undergarments, or for anything
that had to do with the bathroom. He considered those words to be too crude
to be uttered by one of his stature. On the other hand, I've read of samurai
who were farmers, potters, and the like.
>> .....And in the later days of
>> the samurai, those guys had TONS of free time. That's part of the reason for
>> all the painting, poetry, and whatnot - as the role of the samurai dwindled,
>> life had to become rather boring.
>
>They returned to the pursuits of the nobility of classical times
>(pre-1400); poetry, calligraphy, perfumery, bonsai and so on- ikebana
>was not a man's pursuit, by and large, from what I understand.
Yes, and those times coincide with times when the samurai were less needed for
actual combat.
yot...@rmi.net
part to keep them off the streets. A warrior with time on his hands and no
wars to fight can be a dangerous person to have around. There were lots of
these guys around post-1600. The ideal of the martial artist came to be that
of a well-rounded person at this point --someone like Musashi -- a writer,
artist, craftsperson (sword furniture). Nobody will ever convince me that
the bushi of old made tea just so, wrote books on strategy, rapped like
poets, and could walk on water. Post-1600 they were encouraged to do all of
this for the same reasons weapons were confiscated and yearly pilgramages to
court were enforced -- politicians in power wanted them busy doing anything
but fighting.
----------
S. McElvanney
T.V. and playing games on the internet.
Maybe you'd be interested in a book about that?
Karen Nagai
KLogan2026 <kloga...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I know that Samurai practiced poetry, water-color painting and needlepoint. And
>I know what a sand garden is. What I'd like to know is: Did Samurai ever do
>flower gardening? If so, what kind of flowers? If I wanted to study and
>practice this art, how would I go about it? What books would you recommend. Any
>advice or guidance would be appreciated.
I study the Japanese art of flower arranging, Ikebana. I don't
know that it was a particularly samurai activity. In the early
early days, monks arranged flowers for shrines and temples. Later,
those with leisure time and space and flowers created arrangements
for their homes.
First of all, I'd visit some shows, some exhibits if you live
in a large enough area for this to occur. There are different
schools of flower arranging, some modern, others less modern.
I study a style that dates to the mid-1500. One of the important
people in my school arranged flowers for Toyotomi Hideyoshi and
was a tea master. Other styles have been created in the last
century. You may want to check if there is a chapter of Ikebana
International in your city. This is an international organization
of Japanese (and some Chinese) flower arrangers. Most of the
larger metro areas have a chapter. I belong to the group in my
town and arrange for museums and garden shows. I attend shows put
on by other schools because a good arrangement crosses style
boundaries.
There's a little book, Zen and the Art of Flower Arranging...or
some such by the wife of the guy who wrote the one about archery.
It's a quick read and pretty much is a beginner's eye view of the
first few lessons. There are other books on specific schools of
Ikebana and those are great for the pictures. There's another
book, The Japanese Way of the Flower, that's kind of interesting
for the aikido references.
To me Ikebana and martial arts are related, similar even. After
studying both Ikebana and judo for about 30 years, it's about being
able to clear away the junk in my mind, shut down the monkey brain,
shut up the inner child, and face oneself. But that's just me.
Hope this helps. Good Luck.
Karen
> Also, if anyone knows if there is a newsgroup devoted to Bushido or Samurai,
>please let me know what it is by name so I can add it to my newsgroups.
> If anybody knows anything, please e-mail me at kloga...@aol.com
> Thank you for your time.
> Rick Logan
> kloga...@aol.com
--
Rikimaru
would totally changed the views you have right now of samurai and what
they do. This book has permiated Japanese culture to the very inner
core. Even businessmen have read it and abided by its advice.
A samurai is not a warrior but a man of the arts. The art of kenjutsu,
of painting, dance etc.. To become a full person he must strive to
find perfection and knowledge in whatever aspect of life he has done.
And if you didnt know, Musashi also did gardening! He tended the
fields to grow crops. This was after he realized the teachings of the
zen priest Takuan, before he created Nito ryu. A man was considered
great not only by his sword but by the poems and paintings he created.
Although I do agree that the majority of the time samurai did not do
many of these things because the sword took most of their life and
time away. Many of the arts were left for courtesans and the women.
There were many that did do the arts. Munenori Yagyu was renound for
his poems and ideals, so was Nobutsuna (Kamiizumi Isenokami Hidetsuna)
who created the shinkage ryu style.
-Rikimaru
Chas
>
> Just wondering if you guys read "Go Rin no Sho" by Musashiden.
Yup; You?
> A samurai is not a warrior but a man of the arts.
Gozuzamurai- a servant/attendant of noble class.
> And if you didnt know, Musashi also did gardening! He tended the
> fields to grow crops.
He fed himself.
He was not a 'gardener'.
> This was after he realized the teachings of the
> zen priest Takuan, before he created Nito ryu. A man was considered
> great not only by his sword but by the poems and paintings he created.
He did well at a number of things; none of which were gardening.
Rikimaru
>Rikimaru wrote:
>>
>> Just wondering if you guys read "Go Rin no Sho" by Musashiden.
>
>Yup; You?
>
yes indeedy. Victor Harris translations. I find that Hoffman often
exagerates things from a karate slant.
>> A samurai is not a warrior but a man of the arts.
>
>Gozuzamurai- a servant/attendant of noble class.
>
>> And if you didnt know, Musashi also did gardening! He tended the
>> fields to grow crops.
>
>He fed himself.
>He was not a 'gardener'.
Many people grow things in their back yard to feed themselves. Wonder
what you call that? I would tend to believe that somebody who tends a
garden is usually a gardener. I dont think he was selling the crops
for personal gain most of the time. But it depends on your
interpretation of gardener.
>
>> This was after he realized the teachings of the
>> zen priest Takuan, before he created Nito ryu. A man was considered
>> great not only by his sword but by the poems and paintings he created.
>
>He did well at a number of things; none of which were gardening.
that is the debate and the question at hand my friend! :o)
-Rikimaru
S. McElvanney
Chicken Chasseur - made the vicar frightfully ill that night.
Chas
>.....But it depends on your
> interpretation of gardener.
We were speaking of flower arranging, zen gardens and such; not
subsistence farming a small plot.
> >He did well at a number of things; none of which were gardening.
> that is the debate and the question at hand my friend! :o)
Yup