Question for Silat/Indonesian MA guys
MDMA boy
other aspects of Indonesian culture?
Steve Perry
<Junkyar...@tekken.cc> wrote:
> How much influence has Middle Eastern ideas/culture/etc had on Silat and
> other aspects of Indonesian culture?
If you consider that Islam came from the Middle East and that 90% of
Indonesia is now Muslim, then you might consider the impact pretty
great. Of course, the Indonesian Islam is not quite the same as that
in, say, Saudi Arabia -- it overlays older religions in the islands,
but since it has been there since the 14th century, it certainly has
had its effect.
On Java, which embraced the Prophet sooner and more completely than
some of the other islands, the shape of modern keris handles is
definitely Islamic -- no representations of people or animals on the
seven-plane handles, like say, in Madura or Bali.
Some of the blades seem to be influenced by Middle Eastern blades, too,
and I'm not sure where the pattern-welding came from, but they did some
pretty good steelwork in Damascus that is somewhat related, wootz and
hammer folding and all.
Indonesia was a major stop on most trading routes in that part of the
world, and a lot of things came there and stuck around.
Our branch of silat (Serak) came most recently from Christian roots --
the de Thours and de Vries familes -- but some of the other systems
were Islamic and some were; not open to non-believers.
Of course, the Chinese and their kun-tao also influenced silat a fair
amount, and silat is happy -- generally -- to steal whatever works and
add it to the mix. Not a lot of anything that is pure Indonesian around
these days, I'd guess.
--
Steve
Chas
> Some of the blades seem to be influenced by Middle Eastern blades, too,
> and I'm not sure where the pattern-welding came from, but they did some
> pretty good steelwork in Damascus that is somewhat related, wootz and
> hammer folding and all.
Actually, the Indonesian method is almost unique in the world- the
'pamor' technique is done by laying slivers of steel in the shape of
the finished blade and hammer welding at very low heat- there's no
folding.
Indonesia is unique in it's volcanic aspect. Indonesians had
experience with molten rock and the 'selecting out' of free minerals.
They worked bronze very early, steel very early- invented cannon maybe
before the Westerners did.
It's sometimes hard to say which way the technical expertise flowed.
Indonesia was both very sophisticated and very primitive, and maybe
only a few miles apart in that regard.
> Our branch of silat (Serak) came most recently from Christian roots --
> the de Thours and de Vries familes -- but some of the other systems
> were Islamic and some were; not open to non-believers.
Pak Serak was a Badui tribesman. They are mystics and separate
themselves from all other society. Although many practitioners are
presently Muslim, it isn't a 'muslim' art as so many others are.
> Of course, the Chinese and their kun-tao also influenced silat a fair
> amount, and silat is happy -- generally -- to steal whatever works and
> add it to the mix. Not a lot of anything that is pure Indonesian around
> these days, I'd guess.
It's hard to make a generality about silat because there are so many
different kinds of culture and society in the Archipelago. It ranges
all the way from bone-in-the-nose primitives to the most sophisticated
courts of the sultans. There is a real difference between 'city'
practice and rural practice, and between classes of people within a
given group- very complicated.
To the original question; lots of influence.
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403 (Denver area)
Badger South
Steve,
I have a couple questions in followup, if you don't mind...
I've been reading a lot about Silat recently, and have one or
two of the older hardcover books (Chambers(?) and also Draeger)
Somewhere in my recent reading I think I read that the Kuntao
part of the background was regarded as incorrect by some, and
that China had no real influence. I have no idea, and I can't
locate that link, so thought you'd know more.
Second, how much of a head-start would a FMA have when studying
Silat? I.e. how much is similar, and is any incompatible with
Silat?
I think I see some similarities, not necessarily in origin, but
perhaps parallel de novo development.
I don't mean to ask you to do a compare and contrast, but
anything in that regard would be highly interesting to many of
the ng members, I think.
Best,
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
Chas
> Well, Indonesia originally consisted of a few thriving Hindu kingdoms,
> so Hinduism and Indian culture shaped the culture before the muslim
> conquests.
Yeah; kinda.
The really early guys were pretty sophisticated, but overcome by the
Hindus on a very basic cultural level. There is an undercurrent of
something that really is uniquely 'Indonesian'- and that's not even
talking about the more isolated 'primitive' guys who never met a
hindu.
> After the muslim conquest, most Indonesians, especially in Java,
> maintain Hindu practices (sesajen/offering to the spirits, greeting by
> closing the palms together, etc).
lots of influence in some martial arts- that extended and flexed
fingers thing; the cocked foot heel stomp and dependence on elbows and
knees in a certain kind of way- always gratefully acknowledged by the
silat practitioners I've met.
The Indonesians that I've met see India as the seminal fount of
sophisticated/finessed martial skills. The Chinese are viewed as very
effective, but not as 'cultured'.
> As far as Silat is concerned, how can anyone say it is a muslim MA,
> when it is influenced by many other cultures?
It is Orwellian doublethink. It is a point of pride. A nationalistic
thing.
There is a *lot* of influence in some systems from what they call 'the
muslim blading art', and sometimes 'the Royal art'. You see a lot of
circular things that are not 'chinese' concept stuff at all, but more
like the whirling skills from the Arybs.
> ....Why
> would Islam needs to travel thousands of miles to claim its own MA?
'Silat' is a multifaceted word. It doesn't just mean 'fighting'.
Silat means, at it's base, the 'lightning bolt'. The wiggly electrical
thing that comes out of the sky.
It also means 'the blade', and it connotes the revelation of light,
and the instantaneous delivery of power to a point, and the sum total
of all knowledge about combat wherever and whenever.
Indonesian muslims connect to their practice of silat with all sorts
of mystical practices that are 'islamic'. I know it's heretical to
say, but what happened in many instances, was that the 'old practice'-
the animism/shamanist stuff- got an overlay of 'islam' and can
generate some extreme practices.
They've called me up and threatened me- man, you couldn't *even* fake
their presentation; it's very impassioned. Weird guys; very scary.
Phillip Inoy
johnsm...@yahoo.com (John Smith) wrote in message news:<5b8c24d2.03030...@posting.google.com>...
> Well, Indonesia originally consisted of a few thriving Hindu kingdoms,
> so Hinduism and Indian culture shaped the culture before the muslim
> conquests.
Mostly true
>
> After the muslim conquest, most Indonesians, especially in Java,
> maintain Hindu practices (sesajen/offering to the spirits, greeting by
> closing the palms together, etc).
Less true, but true enough such that I won't dispute it.
> I would say that Islam's influence on most Indonesians is limited to
> praying 5 times a day, being sympathetic to Osama, and cursing
> Israel/US when they need someone to blame for all the world's
> problems.
Unless I missed something in the news recently, I wasn't aware that
either the general muslim populace, not the govt. of Indonesia
condoned OBL's behavior
> As far as Silat is concerned, how can anyone say it is a muslim MA,
> when it is influenced by many other cultures?
Well, depending on the type of Silat, and the fact that Indonesia is
PREDOMINANTLY muslim....may lead one to understandably generalize
that Silat is a muslim art.
> A true muslim MA would be originating in Middle East, invented by a
> pedophile as a revelation from his god, and therefore unbeatable. Why
> would Islam needs to travel thousands of miles to claim its own MA?
You certainly either have forgotten most of your history, including
american history or were just never taught that many young women
throughout Europe, Asia and the Middle East as well as in America,
women were oft married at the tender age of 11 or sometimes even
earlier. Certain states today allow marriages under the official age
of adulthood which is 18.
The fact that you refer to someone in the Middle east as a pedophile
points only to the mindless bigotry that you posess against Islam. I
do not support fundamentalist Islam but have little trouble believing
that there are muslims who believe in the one God and their prophet
Mohammed(pbuh) but do not display the same hatred you've shown just
now by calling them pedophiles. You are essentially placing our social
standards on their past and present culture which is blatantly
incorrect. Our own culture has condoned it to some extent throughout
our early history though it is essentially marginalized nowadays.
Secondly, one might think that you were referring to the prophet
Mohammed(pbuh) himself who married someone rather young methinks. This
is shameful blasphemy and is plainly so disgusting that I have little
respect for you. I hope I never have the displeasure of meeting
someone who is so callous that you would lambaste the head of someones
religion so sickeningly.
Their is nothing wrong with Islam as a religion. There is something
quite wrong with violence using God and sacred writings as a method of
condoning it however. If I were you i'd learn the difference and keep
them separate in your mind so as to give us all the ILLUSION that
you've an education.
Yours truly,
Phillip J. Inoy
> "MDMA boy" <Junkyar...@tekken.cc> wrote in message news:<MAV9a.2138$JR....@news1.west.cox.net>...
Phillip Inoy
Mostly true
Yours truly,
Phillip J. Inoy
Phillip Inoy
Mostly true
Yours truly,
Phillip J. Inoy
story
"John Smith" <johnsm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5b8c24d2.03030...@posting.google.com...
> Well, Indonesia originally consisted of a few thriving Hindu kingdoms,
> so Hinduism and Indian culture shaped the culture before the muslim
> conquests.
>
Generally so
> After the muslim conquest, most Indonesians, especially in Java,
> maintain Hindu practices (sesajen/offering to the spirits, greeting by
> closing the palms together, etc).
>
Only in some cases and in some areas. Hint....Not the entire archepelago is
or was Hindu!
> I would say that Islam's influence on most Indonesians is limited to
> praying 5 times a day, being sympathetic to Osama, and cursing
> Israel/US when they need someone to blame for all the world's
> problems.
>
IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know several Indonesians. NOT ONE of them
is sympathetic towards Osama. They worry about Muslims being stereotyped &
villified as a group as a result of the happenings of late BUT sympathetic
not in the least.
> As far as Silat is concerned, how can anyone say it is a muslim MA,
> when it is influenced by many other cultures?
>
Indonesia is the most populous Islamic nation in the world. Islam has a way
of infiltrating itslef everywhere. Why should Silat be any different. Yes
(IOW) some forms of Silat ( there are thousands ) are Muslim in character.
Some are not even taught to non-Muslims. Others are taught to whoever walks
in the door and whom the teacher is willing to teach. Just like any other
martial art the better teachers reserve to themselves the right to refuse to
teach anyone they want to. Go into a Silat class displaying the attitude you
have here ( or a class I teach for that matter ) & you will be shown the
door I'm quite sure.
> A true muslim MA would be originating in Middle East, invented by a
> pedophile as a revelation from his god, and therefore unbeatable. Why
> would Islam needs to travel thousands of miles to claim its own MA?
>
So now we get to the nubbin of the matter. YOU are a bigot & thus not worth
bothering with in the first place.
...............................Tom.................................
story
> > > pedophile as a revelation from his god, and therefore unbeatable. Why
> > > would Islam needs to travel thousands of miles to claim its own MA?
> > >
> >
> > So now we get to the nubbin of the matter. YOU are a bigot & thus not
worth
> > bothering with in the first place.
> >
> makes
> me a bigot? Not that I care what you think of me, but it will
> entertain me to
> see you try to defend a pedophile.
A troll maybe????..........Must be to missnip like
that.................Plonk!!!! Not worth the effort I said & I mean it.
...........................Tom............................
Badger South
John Smith <johnsm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Chas <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<3E6971AC...@attbi.com>...
>>
>> Indonesian muslims connect to their practice of silat with all sorts
>> of mystical practices that are 'islamic'. I know it's heretical to
>> say, but what happened in many instances, was that the 'old practice'-
>> the animism/shamanist stuff- got an overlay of 'islam' and can
>> generate some extreme practices.
>>
>muslim
>MA. I mean, those animistic practices predates the arrival of Islam,
>and probably Hinduism.
>
>>
>> They've called me up and threatened me- man, you couldn't *even* fake
>> their presentation; it's very impassioned. Weird guys; very scary.
>>
>about the Madurese having death matches over simple things like a guy
>walking side by side with one's wife. No touching, not fucking, just
>plain walking. Pretty hot-headed bunch of people, or maybe it is just
>the culture.
>
>Incidentally, the Madurese had massive clashes against the Malays and
>the Dayaks a few years back. Now they are having clashes against the
>Bantenese, a tribe known for their Silat skills. No wonder they are
>good survivors. They have plenty of real life practice, and the weak
>ones are already dead.
Heh, remember what Dan said in his book ("the FMA") about the
Moros; when the Spanish came, they stopped fighting among
themselves and fought the spanish. When the Spanish were
defeated, they went back t what they loved to do best... You
guessed it!
It's hot, and those bugs. No wonder they're always testy! ;-)
-B
--
ba...@virginia.edu
Phillip Inoy
just MArk Goldberg or worse yet some other fucking idiot who has no
concept of his own history let alone that of foreign countries or
religious history for that matter.
I mean, so what if the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) married young. Look at
today's Catholic church REELING from truthful and painful blows from
ex homosexual, pederast abuse survivors. He's probably just some
demented boy who got fucked up the ass by Father o'Jackinoff whilst
his 'Lucky Charms' were played with.
Wake up John, your a demented bigoted faggot and like Mark Goldberg
and any one else like you: Dr Smith666...etc. have absoultely not one
iota of martial arts skill among you.
In fact, maybe if you all stood together in one room you'd be more
likely to have an iota of ACID to trip of off so you think you have
martial skill...than any martial arts.
What a Maroon!!
Phillip J. Inoy
Guro, CSE
"story" <storys@no spam.execulink.com> wrote in message news:<v6l2p4n...@corp.supernews.com>...
MDMA boy
"Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.03030...@posting.google.com...
> story, you are 100% correct. This John Smith character is probably
> just MArk Goldberg or worse yet some other fucking idiot who has no
> concept of his own history let alone that of foreign countries or
> religious history for that matter.
>
> I mean, so what if the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) married young. Look at
> today's Catholic church REELING from truthful and painful blows from
> ex homosexual, pederast abuse survivors. He's probably just some
> demented boy who got fucked up the ass by Father o'Jackinoff whilst
> his 'Lucky Charms' were played with.
>
> Wake up John, your a demented bigoted faggot and like Mark Goldberg
> and any one else like you: Dr Smith666...etc. have absoultely not one
> iota of martial arts skill among you.
Why is he bigoted? Did he make blanket insults directed at Catholics and
Irish people? Did he make borderline-overcompensatory homophobic comments?
Talking trash about that religion is the same as the comments about Islam
that got you bent out of shape in the first place...
I've known a few (American) Muslims and I get the impression that they would
have tried to rise above the insults and petty bickering. Hell, most people
I know of any religion would have tried to rise above it.
What's with the fixation on homosexuality? I'll give you the benefit of the
doubt and assume you're talking about the Hadith where it says "Kill the one
that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to" (in
reference to two dudes getting it on) and not just cause you've got
homosexuality on the brain!
Interestingly, many Muslims doubt the authenticity of the alleged qutes of
Muhammad in Hadith (or ahadith). Have anything to do with the fact that
during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with
individuals guilty of "liwat" or "lutiyya"? No sahabi of Muhammad could
quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question of how to
punish gayness or even whether he thought it ought to be punished!
I mean, even uncouth American infidels consider homosexuality to be more
acceptable to ephebophilia or pedophilia...
> In fact, maybe if you all stood together in one room you'd be more
> likely to have an iota of ACID to trip of off so you think you have
> martial skill...than any martial arts.
Don't recall LSD to affect self-appreciation of MA skills- maybe you did
more of it in your day than I did in mine (if so, that was no small feat-
congratulations on not being dead.)
Chas
> Somewhere in my recent reading I think I read that the Kuntao
> part of the background was regarded as incorrect by some, and
> that China had no real influence. I have no idea, and I can't
> locate that link, so thought you'd know more.
I don't mean to intrude on your question to Steve, but I'm going to
<g>
The hatred of Chinese in Indonesia goes back for centuries, and colors
everything they say and think about things Chinese.
There was an indigenous art; no doubt about it. The Kembaggan (lots of
variant spellings) might well be the oldest martial art there is
that's still practiced. It doesn't look like *anything* else I've ever
seen.
The movements of kembaggan are included in, for instance, the Serak
Djurus, but other things are added also. Pak Serak, in fact, was said
to have studied nine martial arts; four Indonesian, three Chinese and
two Indian. There is no doubt that Chinese art had an influence- it is
not polite to emphasize it.
Supposedly, the word 'pentjak' comes from the Chinese 'pun' 'cha' 'te'
(punch, kick, block or somesuch)
Kuntao is generally described as 'Chinese art as practiced on the
Archipelago and heavily influenced by silat'. From what I've seen
personally, that's a fair assessment. There are similarities to what
you see from Chinese sources, but it has a different 'flavor'.
> Second, how much of a head-start would a FMA have when studying
> Silat? I.e. how much is similar, and is any incompatible with
> Silat?
It's all pretty much the same, although I find the Indo stuff to be
more sophisticated and finessed. FMA is good stuff and a great
preparation for continuing study in anything.
If I moved to a city wherein there was no 'Indonesian' practice
groups, I would practice with FMA people. We spend a lot of time with
them anyway, and it's kinda viewed as 'one art' of the string of
islands that goes from the tip of Malaysia to Okinawa.
Chas
> I mean, so what if the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) married young.
six?
Consummated at nine?
> Look at
> today's Catholic church REELING from truthful and painful blows from
> ex homosexual, pederast abuse survivors. He's probably just some
> demented boy who got fucked up the ass by Father o'Jackinoff whilst
> his 'Lucky Charms' were played with.
I guess it's not 'abuse' if one expects nothing else.
There doesn't seem to be the same onus against pederasty amongst some
muslims as among some Christians.
If we accept homosexuality, the crime of the priests was their
betrayal of the trust of their congregation, and the hypocrisy of
touting one thing and practicing something else.
In Afghanistan, our troops have remarked on being approached by guys
that paint up and dress as women while in camp. Their conduct is
condoned or encouraged by the culture, and so would not be looked upon
as 'abuse' by a young man whom they involved in their activities.
Phillip Inoy
> "Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.03030...@posting.google.com...
> > story, you are 100% correct. This John Smith character is probably
> > just MArk Goldberg or worse yet some other fucking idiot who has no
> > concept of his own history let alone that of foreign countries or
> > religious history for that matter.
> >
> > I mean, so what if the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) married young. Look at
> > today's Catholic church REELING from truthful and painful blows from
> > ex homosexual, pederast abuse survivors. He's probably just some
> > demented boy who got fucked up the ass by Father o'Jackinoff whilst
> > his 'Lucky Charms' were played with.
> >
> > Wake up John, your a demented bigoted faggot and like Mark Goldberg
> > and any one else like you: Dr Smith666...etc. have absoultely not one
> > iota of martial arts skill among you.
> Why is he bigoted? Did he make blanket insults directed at Catholics and
> Irish people? Did he make borderline-overcompensatory homophobic comments?
> Talking trash about that religion is the same as the comments about Islam
> that got you bent out of shape in the first place...
What I was trying to get across is that John has a problem with being
a pot calling the kettle black. IOW, if you found what I said to be
insulting then you should find what he said just as such..proving my
point.
> I've known a few (American) Muslims and I get the impression that they would
> have tried to rise above the insults and petty bickering. Hell, most people
> I know of any religion would have tried to rise above it.
>
> What's with the fixation on homosexuality? I'll give you the benefit of the
> doubt and assume you're talking about the Hadith where it says "Kill the one
> that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to" (in
> reference to two dudes getting it on) and not just cause you've got
> homosexuality on the brain!
I am a Christian, my teacher was a sufi muslim, and personally I find
the faggotry in a church setting much less tolerable than marrying
young which is stil tolerable in many countries around the world and
was also such throughout Christian Europe from before the dark ages
through the 1800's.
> Interestingly, many Muslims doubt the authenticity of the alleged qutes of
> Muhammad in Hadith (or ahadith). Have anything to do with the fact that
> during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with
> individuals guilty of "liwat" or "lutiyya"? No sahabi of Muhammad could
> quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question of how to
> punish gayness or even whether he thought it ought to be punished!
Admittedly I'd have to check with a sheikh on this; Dr. Jamal Badawi
is the renowned quran specialist consulted by most Sunnis on the West
Coast.
> I mean, even uncouth American infidels consider homosexuality to be more
> acceptable to ephebophilia or pedophilia...
Believe it or not, this is a recent change in history. Most of the
deep south still permits marriages at 15-17 I believe. 16 I think.
> > In fact, maybe if you all stood together in one room you'd be more
> > likely to have an iota of ACID to trip of off so you think you have
> > martial skill...than any martial arts.
> Don't recall LSD to affect self-appreciation of MA skills- maybe you did
> more of it in your day than I did in mine (if so, that was no small feat-
> congratulations on not being dead.)
NO I don't do drugs and don't condone it. I was simply referring to
their delusional, illusional martial abilities. If John Smith, Mark
Goldberg, and DrSmith666 got together it would be a divine miracle if
they could just combine their martial abilities to add up to the level
of "complete suckness". At least they would be slightly above "beyond
redemption."
Yours truly,
Chas
> ......and personally I find
> the faggotry in a church setting much less tolerable than marrying
> young which is stil tolerable in many countries around the world and
> was also such throughout Christian Europe from before the dark ages
> through the 1800's.
Many 'churches' don't consider homosexuality a crime/sin. The
Buddhists certainly don't; I don't think that Shintos worry much about
it; there seems to be an acceptance in muslim culture for the.
The 'sin' is hypocrisy- and only as applied to a church that abjures
homosexuality.
Of course, accepting some sexual deviation is probably enough
precedent to ignore most other deviancies also.
> Believe it or not, this is a recent change in history. Most of the
> deep south still permits marriages at 15-17 I believe. 16 I think.
Aisha was 6. The marriage consummated when she was 9.
Although I don't consider his actions to be judicable by our standards
in any case.
> NO I don't do drugs and don't condone it.
That's interesting.
In most FMA/SEAMA, there is a long tradition of using drugs to enhance
martial performance.
MDMA boy
> Phillip Inoy wrote:
> > ......and personally I find
> > the faggotry in a church setting much less tolerable than marrying
> > young which is stil tolerable in many countries around the world and
> > was also such throughout Christian Europe from before the dark ages
> > through the 1800's.
>
> Many 'churches' don't consider homosexuality a crime/sin. The
> Buddhists certainly don't; I don't think that Shintos worry much about
> it; there seems to be an acceptance in muslim culture for the.
> The 'sin' is hypocrisy- and only as applied to a church that abjures
> homosexuality.
> Of course, accepting some sexual deviation is probably enough
> precedent to ignore most other deviancies also.
>
> > Believe it or not, this is a recent change in history. Most of the
> > deep south still permits marriages at 15-17 I believe. 16 I think.
>
> Aisha was 6. The marriage consummated when she was 9.
> Although I don't consider his actions to be judicable by our standards
> in any case.
That would be a case of pedophila (pre-pubescent) as opposed to ephebophilia
(going thru puberty). The 17yr old marriage argument isn't really valid
because most 17 have completed puberty. NOTE: I'm vehemently against
people fucking underage people, and I'd rather kids didn't fuck each other.
> > NO I don't do drugs and don't condone it.
>
> That's interesting.
> In most FMA/SEAMA, there is a long tradition of using drugs to enhance
> martial performance.
What kind of drugs? How and when are they used? How do they effect
performance?
Chas
> .......
> What kind of drugs?
No idea.
> How and when are they used? How do they effect
> performance?
No idea.
MDMA boy
>
> > Why is he bigoted? Did he make blanket insults directed at Catholics
and
> > Irish people? Did he make borderline-overcompensatory homophobic
comments?
> > Talking trash about that religion is the same as the comments about
Islam
> > that got you bent out of shape in the first place...
>
> What I was trying to get across is that John has a problem with being
> a pot calling the kettle black. IOW, if you found what I said to be
> insulting then you should find what he said just as such..proving my
> point.
I don't care about John. I don't care about you. It just looked weird to
call someone a bigot and then make comments against race, religion and
sexual preference in the same sentence.
>
>
>
> > I've known a few (American) Muslims and I get the impression that they
would
> > have tried to rise above the insults and petty bickering. Hell, most
people
> > I know of any religion would have tried to rise above it.
> >
> > What's with the fixation on homosexuality? I'll give you the benefit of
the
> > doubt and assume you're talking about the Hadith where it says "Kill the
one
> > that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to" (in
> > reference to two dudes getting it on) and not just cause you've got
> > homosexuality on the brain!
>
> I am a Christian, my teacher was a sufi muslim, and personally I find
> the faggotry in a church setting much less tolerable than marrying
> young which is stil tolerable in many countries around the world and
> was also such throughout Christian Europe from before the dark ages
> through the 1800's.
>
if by "faggotry in a church setting" you mean child abuse; then I agree with
you. Child abuse is less tolerable than many, many, things. Children of
all religions are abused all the time in and out of places of worship. Just
because the catholic cases get so much publicity doesn't mean that they're
the only ones doing it.
And let's be honest- why do they get so much media attention? Because it's
sooooo politcally correct! I mean, you get to make christianity AND white
men look bad!
>
>
>
>
> > Interestingly, many Muslims doubt the authenticity of the alleged qutes
of
> > Muhammad in Hadith (or ahadith). Have anything to do with the fact that
> > during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do
with
> > individuals guilty of "liwat" or "lutiyya"? No sahabi of Muhammad could
> > quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question of how
to
> > punish gayness or even whether he thought it ought to be punished!
>
> Admittedly I'd have to check with a sheikh on this; Dr. Jamal Badawi
> is the renowned quran specialist consulted by most Sunnis on the West
> Coast.
My mistake, i thought you were one of the muslim guys that's always arguing
in the "Silat, Islam, deThouars...." thread. That's why i talked about
>
> > I mean, even uncouth American infidels consider homosexuality to be more
> > acceptable to ephebophilia or pedophilia...
>
> Believe it or not, this is a recent change in history. Most of the
> deep south still permits marriages at 15-17 I believe. 16 I think.
>
> > Don't recall LSD to affect self-appreciation of MA skills- maybe you did
> > more of it in your day than I did in mine (if so, that was no small
feat-
> > congratulations on not being dead.)
>
> NO I don't do drugs and don't condone it. I was simply referring to
> their delusional, illusional martial abilities. If John Smith, Mark
> Goldberg, and DrSmith666 got together it would be a divine miracle if
> they could just combine their martial abilities to add up to the level
> of "complete suckness". At least they would be slightly above "beyond
> redemption."
Well, thats btwn you guys. Easy to settle though- everyone just post mpgs
of themselves practising their art. Because let's be honest- are you ever
going to see each other in real life, let alone have some kind of grudge
match?
Phillip Inoy
> "Phillip Inoy" <deber...@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.0303...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Why is he bigoted? Did he make blanket insults directed at Catholics
> and
> > > Irish people? Did he make borderline-overcompensatory homophobic
> comments?
> > > Talking trash about that religion is the same as the comments about
> Islam
> > > that got you bent out of shape in the first place...
> >
> > What I was trying to get across is that John has a problem with being
> > a pot calling the kettle black. IOW, if you found what I said to be
> > insulting then you should find what he said just as such..proving my
> > point.
>
> I don't care about John. I don't care about you. It just looked weird to
> call someone a bigot and then make comments against race, religion and
> sexual preference in the same sentence.
My point exactly.
> > > I've known a few (American) Muslims and I get the impression that they
> would
> > > have tried to rise above the insults and petty bickering. Hell, most
> people
> > > I know of any religion would have tried to rise above it.
> > >
> > > What's with the fixation on homosexuality? I'll give you the benefit of
> the
> > > doubt and assume you're talking about the Hadith where it says "Kill the
> one
> > > that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to" (in
> > > reference to two dudes getting it on) and not just cause you've got
> > > homosexuality on the brain!
> >
> > I am a Christian, my teacher was a sufi muslim, and personally I find
> > the faggotry in a church setting much less tolerable than marrying
> > young which is stil tolerable in many countries around the world and
> > was also such throughout Christian Europe from before the dark ages
> > through the 1800's.
> >
>
> if by "faggotry in a church setting" you mean child abuse; then I agree with
> you. Child abuse is less tolerable than many, many, things. Children of
> all religions are abused all the time in and out of places of worship. Just
> because the catholic cases get so much publicity doesn't mean that they're
> the only ones doing it.
True, true true. But its been a crime in the Christian church not for
the last 50 years but the last 500. Even if you grant that it happened
in the Muslim world, one cannot take an action outside its immediate
cultural context. If its common practice to have pederastic relations
in islam then whatever. If in Christendom then fine. but in
Christendom the case is clearly that it was a wrong that was over
looked for centuries.
> And let's be honest- why do they get so much media attention? Because it's
> sooooo politcally correct! I mean, you get to make christianity AND white
> men look bad!
I'm with you on this one. If any of that happened to me and my family
didn't do anything about it....hard to believe that these abuse
survivors didn't telll SOMEONE in their families...but anyways...had
it happened to me. I tell you honestly, that priest would end up face
down, ass up, buck naked, in an all black community with a large
placard reading: I Hate NIggaz, in big bold red letters. Courtesy of
my family.
God willing, no, for their sake. If it were my will they'd be begging
for forgiveness for their insolence and consummate stupidity.
Finally in re the other thread about studying Serrada, you'll notice
Guro Khan's kind endorsement. I live in Goodyear AZ per the original
post on the other thread. You are more than welcome to come train with
me. Bring friends...it'll be cheaper for you. I have sole authority to
teach Serrada here in the Desert Southwest via the blessings of other
Serrada Eskrimadors, especially Guro Khan. When we get a large enough
student group together, I will bring both Guro Khan and GM Vincent on
a seminar level. Their kindness and constant reminders to keep Serrada
alive is why I have decided offer this.
If you wish to train contact me and bring some friends who are willing
to train in this special type of FMA.
MDMA boy
> the last 50 years but the last 500. Even if you grant that it happened
> in the Muslim world, one cannot take an action outside its immediate
> cultural context.
You've lost me
If its common practice to have pederastic relations
> in islam then whatever.
No, not whatever. If that's the case than islam is wrong.
If in Christendom then fine.
see above
but in
> Christendom the case is clearly that it was a wrong that was over
> looked for centuries.
its wrong no matter what any religion says.
> I'm with you on this one. If any of that happened to me and my family
> didn't do anything about it....hard to believe that these abuse
> survivors didn't telll SOMEONE in their families...but anyways...had
> it happened to me. I tell you honestly, that priest would end up face
> down, ass up, buck naked, in an all black community with a large
> placard reading: I Hate NIggaz, in big bold red letters. Courtesy of
> my family.
and by doing that you would have perpetuated the false myth that pedophiles
are predominantly white (they're not). media uses catholic pedo cases to
further the PC cause of making whites look as bad as possible while
neglecting to show cases where a minority is a pedophile. Note: Not only
am I a minority in my area I'm in a relationship with someone who is the
majority- so no comments about junkyard willie being racist please.
> God willing, no, for their sake. If it were my will they'd be begging
> for forgiveness for their insolence and consummate stupidity.
whatever. everyone post y'alls mpegs and leave it be.
> Finally in re the other thread about studying Serrada, you'll notice
> Guro Khan's kind endorsement. I live in Goodyear AZ per the original
> post on the other thread.
I'm in Tucson and can't travel far
You are more than welcome to come train with
> me. Bring friends...it'll be cheaper for you.
so what's the deal with arnis/IMAF? I'm leaning toard the IMAF affiliated
school due to proximity and cost.
I have sole authority to
> teach Serrada here in the Desert Southwest via the blessings of other
> Serrada Eskrimadors, especially Guro Khan.
whatever. i just need to something cheap, something close, and something
that will teach me to be effective with a 16" ASP and folding knife- in that
order.
When we get a large enough
> student group together, I will bring both Guro Khan and GM Vincent on
> a seminar level. Their kindness and constant reminders to keep Serrada
> alive is why I have decided offer this.
>
> If you wish to train contact me and bring some friends who are willing
> to train in this special type of FMA.
what makes it different/better than other FMA or SEAMA?
Steve Perry
<ba...@node5.unix.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I have a couple questions in followup, if you don't mind...
>
> I've been reading a lot about Silat recently, and have one or
> two of the older hardcover books (Chambers(?) and also Draeger)
>
> Somewhere in my recent reading I think I read that the Kuntao
> part of the background was regarded as incorrect by some, and
> that China had no real influence. I have no idea, and I can't
> locate that link, so thought you'd know more.
>
> Second, how much of a head-start would a FMA have when studying
> Silat? I.e. how much is similar, and is any incompatible with
> Silat?
>
> I think I see some similarities, not necessarily in origin, but
> perhaps parallel de novo development.
>
> I don't mean to ask you to do a compare and contrast, but
> anything in that regard would be highly interesting to many of
> the ng members, I think.
>
> Best,
>
> -B
BSouth --
What Chas said, mostly. Using the term "Indonesia" puts up a big tent
-- it would rather like saying "'Africa," insofar as the sweep of
cultures. People in all hues, ranging from highly sophisticated, to
villages where, until recently, when they had folks over for dinner,
they had *folks* for dinner. Just about every major religion you can
think of has branches there, from animism to the Hindu to Buddhists to
Muslims to Christians, to fill in the blank. And there is some overlap,
as has been pointed out. Indonesian Islam is not the same as Saudi
Arabian, any more than Catholics are the same as Methodists.
Mostly when I talk about silat, I'm referring to Javanese stuff, since
that's what I study, but there are so many styles nobody knows the
number. If you've got Draeger's books, you have an idea of how hard it
is to pin stuff down -- his Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia,
written in -- what, the early seventies? -- is still the standard
reference work in English.
Saying "pentjak silat" is a lot like saying "fighting." A very broad
stroke.
I know a guy who lives in Sydney, Australia, who is married to an
ethnic Chinese Indonesian from Jakarta. Her people have been there more
than four hundred years, and they are still considered foreigners.
They tend not to intermarry, they work hard and own property, and
whenever there is civil unrest, they become targets for their relative
wealth. Guy goes back to visit every year or so with his wife. He is
short, tanned, speaks the language fluently, and dresses like a local,
but he hires bodyguards when he gets off the beaten track -- sometimes
he'll have more money in his pocket than a small village makes in a
year, and he's not rich. It's relative.
Everybody I've talked who knows much about silat says there is a core
that is indigenous to the island, but that every time a teacher saw a
technique that worked in a real fight, he'd be likely to incorporate
it, or at least devise an answer to it, so the systems tended to be
fluid until they got things fined down. The ethnic Chinese practiced
their arts, but nobody ever accused them of being stupid, either, so
they swiped from the locals, too. At some point, at least some versions
of kun-tao and silat started looking similar.
According to some sources, the term kun-tao was used as a blanket
coverage for most local fighting styles in and around Jakarkta up until
WWII.
In our art's oral history, some practitioners believe is that Serak was
at least partially devised as an answer to Tjimande, an older and more
widespread system, and that makes sense -- if you knew the guy you were
going against was apt to know it, and you knew what it could do, it
would be smart to try to figure a way to defeat it.
While interesting, it doesn't much matter to the serious players how it
came about as much as the more important question: Will it work when I
need it?
I don't know enough about FMA from direct experience to speak to it at
any depth, but from what little I've seen, it's a lot closer to my
version of silat (western Javanese Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak) than,
say, the stand-up outfighting styles that feature kicking or long-range
punching. Knives are very important in both countries, and much, if not
most, silat is based on the blade, as are traditional FMA, as I
understand them. There are arts that are based on bare limbs, with
weapons added in later, and there is difference in the moves, timing,
and distances between these and bladed arts. Big differences.
Not that I'm an expert, mind you. Just saying what little I know.
--
Steve
kalis
Thats funny. One of my internal MA teachers likes beer and he says it
helps him to 'quell the fire within' or something.
I'm like, "bullshit, you just like to drink!"
<g>
Mike
phauna
sounds it with his last post, but it needs saying. while religion and
philosophy have shaped all human values and laws up until the present
it is pretty much time to toss religion and any of it's authority on
what people should or shouldn't do. granted it makes a lot of people
happy, but it makes another lot angry and righteous and crazy, and
willing to condone certain despicable acts as culturally relatively
okay. in my mind we should chuck patriotism too, as it makes everyone
feel they must defend their little imperialistic thoughts, which leads
to separation of people and their views.
why is pedophilia wrong? because the vast majority of people think it
is wrong. no other reason. to defend it by saying that this
religious group has a cultural tradition or some crap, or that this
other group has a long history of tolerance for it, is just fucked.
mdma boy and john smith and phillip inoy all consider it fucked, but
then they argue who has the right to say where it came from or who did
it when, or whatever, who was first to have filthy pederasts.
i couldn't care less if mohammad married a little girl. he's dead.
even if he wrote that thou shall be able to marry little girls with
impugnity into the quran, i still wouldn't care. priests abusing
children is bad because it's recent, they should be able to get
married, then the problem will decrease a lot, methinks. my view is
all religion is irrelevant now, and laws are it, and they will not
likely change into tolerant of pedophilia laws, nor will they likely
bow too much to religious pressure. in western countries at least.
those in other countries are free to protest any 'pedophilia is super'
laws, as is the U.N. and other countries. pedophilia is bad, getting
married at 16 is usually only allowable for people within 2 or 3 years
of the 16 year old, and silat is cool, who cares what it's called.
interesting thread, by the way. i love history.
MDMA boy
MDMA boy
"phauna" <pha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ed1e436.03031...@posting.google.com...
> right, time for the atheist to chime in. maybe mdma boy is one, he
> sounds it with his last post, but it needs saying. while religion and
> philosophy have shaped all human values and laws up until the present
> it is pretty much time to toss religion and any of it's authority on
> what people should or shouldn't do. granted it makes a lot of people
> happy, but it makes another lot angry and righteous and crazy, and
> willing to condone certain despicable acts as culturally relatively
> okay. in my mind we should chuck patriotism too, as it makes everyone
> feel they must defend their little imperialistic thoughts, which leads
> to separation of people and their views.
>
> why is pedophilia wrong? because the vast majority of people think it
> is wrong. no other reason. to defend it by saying that this
> religious group has a cultural tradition or some crap, or that this
> other group has a long history of tolerance for it, is just fucked.
> mdma boy and john smith and phillip inoy all consider it fucked, but
> then they argue who has the right to say where it came from or who did
> it when, or whatever, who was first to have filthy pederasts.
No. Cut & paste from my other post: "its wrong no matter what any religion
says."
>