news:kOK_d.41$dZ3.3@fe09.lga...
live.

Court-appointed, government-appointed, and private physicians have confirmed
that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Schiavo
suffered massive brain damage as a result of a cardiac arrest 15 years ago,
and ongoing neurological degeneration in the interim. During a bulimic
episode, her blood potassium increased to a level high enough to stop her
heart, which remained stopped for 14 minutes. As a result, most of her
cerebral cortex is gone, replaced by spinal fluid.

As for the video "evidence" you have seen,
----
At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look
lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for
how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has
carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that
these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry
Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed
her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed)
examination. Also, Mr. Schindler tried several more times to have her eyes
follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does
not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the
credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant
response to stimuli.
http://www.rangelmd.com/2003/10/terri-schiavo-case.html

. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed)

Well, I looked at the site, and they said this also...
  and conservatives and "right-to-life" proponents will cling to this
uncertainty
  as their argument for keeping these patients alive. But this is a
closed argument
  because it cannot be currently proven 100% that there is no "Terri"
inside her body
  despite the large amount of evidence that makes this highly unlikely.

Now.. I'm curious.
Do you notice that this is his 'political' and 'religious' opinion of
the questioning, as opposed to his own statement that there is no way to
know how much of cognition is there or not. And if so, then why can't an
apparently peaceful women have the opportunity to see if stimulation and
therapy, by her family, at their expense, be offered to see if she is
still peaceful in her diminished state, and or more functionally aware.?

Now... since it was her husband, who turned off all therapy to assist in
seeing if there was any improvement in any of those areas, and since she
is apparently at peace and not in pain requesting death- after all- my
question was directed not at the concept of evaluating her mentation,
but her not requesting death, as kevorkians patients did, and for whom,
death may have been truly merciful, then why is it prerequisite to the
right to kill her?

The notion that she claimed not to want to live, if comatose, say,
whilel watching movie of this with her husband was proof, then why isn't
it important that she signed no document. Admittedly, she was young, and
the young don't plan for this- but without evincing pain, or desire to
die, then why does her limited consciousness mandate death- if pain and
the conscious request for relief from unremitting pain is torture, and
not allowed to be resolved in suicide, then why is the calm state that
is responsive thought limited.

If right to living folks can keep a convicted homicidal killer from
being executed, why can't a peacefully diminished women have the chance
to reinvigorate her state, if she is not apparently pained by this, and
not at the expense of the state??

The thing I really was suspicious over was the 'right to life, and
conservative labeling.

Is that what his is: an opinion based on emotional bias predominantly,
rather than the fact that she has had no rehab, is in no pain, probably
won't need a feeding tube with therapy, and her family, lovingly wants
to do this all themselves??

This you oppose?

Mark

news:kOK_d.41$dZ3.3@fe09.lga...

I still remember the Jack Kevorkian's arrest. It goes something like this:

The government turned a blind eye to his assisted suicide practice for a
long time because everybody knows his terminally ill clients actually wanted
to terminate their lives to die in dignity.

But Jack Kevorkian want to push for formal legalization of assisted suicide
and he was not happy that the government turned a blind eye and ignored him.
So he filmed the lethal injection for his terminally ill clients and gave
the video to the news media. This became too big for the authorities to
ignore and they charged him for murder and put him in jail.

For Terry Schiavo, she has been under life support for 15 years (according
to you info) and basically there is no hope for her to recover. Removal of
her life support is not murder technically. There is difference between
actually killing you and not helping you stay alive by plugging you into a
machine.

When a person cannot make a decision, as in Terry Schiavo's case, the next
of kin or loved ones will be allowed to make the decision for her. 15 years
is long enough time to wait for a recovery. There is no hope for her. There
is no quality of life for her to stay alive that way.

If I were in that state, I hope someone will kindly terminate my suffering
for me. I respect Terry Schiavo's family's decision. My heart goes out to
her and her loved ones. May her rest in peace.

Actually, she's on no meds- she could be taught to eat again, according
to the family, but the attempt to move forward with any of that, any
stimulation, any recreation, any physical therapy, anything- was halted
13 yrs ago by the husband.

She's not ill, just needs a feeding tube. So they are in fact killing
her. She is not terminally ill and kept alive by machines replacing her
organ systems.

I visit a man, his wife and daughter, in jus this kind of situation.
The husband had an aneurysm, 3 yrs ago. He was a neurosurgeon in Europe,
but became an internist here, to avoid lenghthier approval, his wife an
endocrinologist. The daughter now a graduate from college.

He hated being in the Nursing home when he was a doctor. His wife was
sort of frailish, a delicate thing and always kidded him that he'd
probably be saddled with her when they got old.

Then one day- his head exploded, and now he lays in a bed.

I know he would have preferred to die if you ever asked him of this
scenario.  But now- he's alive, and his wife, works tirelessly to keep
him going, and he's more frail than Schiavo.

   That he exists,braindamaged, cannot talk, draws a few stick figures
now, with his wifes encouragement, and is slowly getting small
improvements has resulted in a few things.

His wife is fearcely fighting for his life. She is strong now- exhausted
and strong. The daughter has had a huge task to deal with this but has
lovelingly assumed the parent roll and grown thru this dreadful ordeal.

   So although some people simply ignore their situation, and shake
their heads, ( isn't it ashame, isn't is a shame ) and avoid ever seeing
them, I personally like visiting them.

   There are different kinds of love in this world, different ways to
push that with passion. She and the daughter do that. I think the
daughter was protective when I'd visit since she was unconsciously
protecting her mom from men- but that made her stronger, and I was
touched by the whole struggle and what that desperate struggle, grew in
all of them.

Should he have been been left to die- most would say- absolutely.
Should the wife have put him in a nursing facility, and gone on with her
life. Most would say, absolutely.

And without any position except bird's eye view... I'll tell you this.
I go to visit to wish them well, to give them,her, some energy, and
encouragement, and that's what community means. I wasn't even friends
with them. I didn't actually care for him when he was whole.
But that has nothing to do with this.

His continuing has grown those three, and for me, it is a chance to
appreciate the struggle for life itself... what it says and what it
shows about what people  can accomplish when their hearts are fully
charged in a certain direction.

That's about it for that.

Mark

news:ekM_d.8947$mB7.6969@fe10.lga...
[...]

I never said I opposed anything, but your initial post was fraught with
emotion and insinuation, so I injected a little factual evidence into the
discussion. But since you ask, that's a good question, whether it's alright
to let someone take over another person's body for the purpose of caring for
it without financial assistance from the State.

First, the absence of pain doesn't indicate that she is at peace with her
condition, it could be that she is incapable of feeling anything about her
state, which is what various experts have determined.

Second, she's been in this state for 15 years. I don't claim to know
everything about the case, but I find it incredible that no one has tried to
rehabilitate her over a period of 15 years. Since you give no corrborating
citations, I will decline to believe this.

From everything I've seen about this, there is little to differentiate it
from other cases of persistent vegetative state. Ethical questions
concerning the removal of sustaining nutrition from a PVS patient have
already been addressed, and this action has been taken for a large number of
patients. Many people feel it is unethical, for a variety of reasons, to
maintain someone in a persistent vegetative state from which there is no
reasonable hope of recovery.

Michael Schiavo says that he and Terri discussed this and that Terri said
she wouldn't want to have her life sustained in that way. Her parents say
they think Terri would want to live. There is no evidence I have seen that
would indicate Michael has a motive to lie about this. He seems passionate
and honest in his desire to do what is best for Terri. From what I have
seen, Michael's case is stronger than the parents' case, and his claim
supercedes the parents' claim, since he and Terri were married.

But why shouldn't the parents be allowed to take care of Terri if they want
to and will pay for it? In the absence of someone with a superceding claim,
there would be no reason to stop them from doing this. But Michael's claim
is superior, it is his claim that Terri would not want this, and he has
refused multiple offers of large sums of money to "buy" Terri from him. His
wishes must be respected, because they are the closest thing the State has
to the expressed wishes of Terri.

Here's a link to a discussion of the ethics of responding to patients in a
persistent vegetative state.
http://www.xenos.org/ministries/crossroads/donal/pvs.htm

I admire your compassion toward that man, his family, and humanity.

From your description, that man apparently has hope for recovery.

I saw Terry Schiavo on TV news a little earlier. She was not smiling. Her
facial expression was just stuck in a grin that way.

It is sad. I believe it is not an easy decision for her relatives to let her
go.

Best Regards,
wannabe
======

In article <kOK_d.41$dZ...@fe09.lga>,
 Mark Goldberg <msgoldb...@optonline.net> wrote:

Yes, but that was stupid.

Actually she's a spud, Mark.  A carrot.  Brain scans show that instead
of a brain she has a bubble of spinal fluid.  Independent medical
examiners have concluded that there is absolutely nothing going on
between her ears.  She does not want to live because she has no seat of
consciousness to want anything with.

Not only that but a court found that there was clear and convincing
evidence that Terry Schiavo would not have wanted to be kept alive in
her current condition.

The important part of Terry Schiavo died fifteen years ago.  The man's
entitled to move on.

What is being settled now is whether her husband will get her money, as
he is legally and morally entitled to do, or whether her Roman Catholic
parents will obstruct the process until he gives them what they want:
legal custody of Terry Schiavo and her cash settlement for malpractise.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.

Oh... that explains it.

Uh, I see
   Brain scans show that instead

She hasn't had any scans in 13 yrs
  Independent medical

I heard two neurologists say otherwise last evening

The important part??
To whom... her, you, or the guy who wants her gone??
She doesn't seem to mind being alive, her family who has seen her- only
under the most restrictive conditions set by the husband, who left her
for another,  and refused her any support to see if she can improve for
the last 13 yrs, gives a strange picture.
The important part-
The important part???

They didn't ask for money, they wanted a chance to give her a chance-
and you have a thing against her _  Roman Catholic _ parents??

Hmmmm......

Mark

And his response was likewise tinged with an emotional appeal, as I posted.

I heard two neurologist say this was untrue just last night.

Ok... since it's all over the place, you can check this yourself, I
simply pointed that it was there.
But the question I had was... since she isn't in apparent pain, which is
obvious, is not terminally ill, which is obvious, is on no life support,
which is obvious, doesn't it seem odd that the guy turned off any chance
for her to even enjoy- as a vegetable, any normal stimulation- even for
a vegetable??? No open curtains inher room, no sunlight, no nothing.
Doesn't that strike a strange note???

Suppose they allowed one year of her family to engage rehab, and
stimulation, and phys therapy, and she improved, and didn't need a
feeding tube, and she evinced no pain, no agony no request to die, and
the family simply paid for her care, and life??

That's my question

I heard differently last night from medical experts, and no evaluation
has occurred, and she is clearly not persistently vegetative, she is
diminished, not vegetative.

Yeah... that death do us part thing. He signed a vow with those very words.

I posted a story of a family I visit, where the guy is probably worse
off than Schiavo. I gave a personal account. You give me url's.

I'd be curious... what would be the harm in giving her six months of
stimulation, mri, pet scans, and such- because the feeding tube would
likely be not necessary,and then it would be more obviously murder???

The story of Michael Schiavo is muddled; more so than hers, and she's
the diminished one.

Mark

Hell no, I'm the one who gets benefit from this too.
You want to see life struggle on... to defy the ravages of death.

Tough, gutsy, loving, unwilling to surrender kind of things... this I
think is not to be run away from. Others did... they shut the door and
paid him and them no mind. Me
I think I get something for free from all that.

Less so than Schiavo probably- and he lost more- he was a neurosurgeon,
internist, and his wife can barely hold on financially.  Much less
problematic than Schiavo's family's situation.

Yeah... there are issues here.

Mark

Okay... the questions are all up in the air.  Here's the info posted
from her parents site. They post this:

  MYTH: Terri is PVS (Persistent vegetative state)
FACT: The definition of PVS in Florida Statue 765.101:
Persistent vegetative state means a permanent and irreversible condition
of unconsciousness in which there is:

(a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of ANY kind.
(b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the
environment.

Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of
persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to
communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in
interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from
irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move
around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are,
instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does
interact purposefully with her environment.

MYTH: Terri does not need rehabilitation
FACT: Florida Statute 744.3215 Rights of persons determined incapacitated:

(1) A person who has been determined to be incapacitated retains the right
(i) To receive necessary services and rehabilitation.

This is a retained right that a guardian cannot take away.
Additionally, it does not make exception for PVS patients. Terri has
illegally been denied rehabilitation - as many nurses have sworn in
affidavits.

MYTH: Removal of food was both legal and court-ordered.
FACT: The courts had only allowed removal of Terri's feeding tube, not
regular food and water. Terri's husband illegally ordered this. The law
only allows the removal of "life-prolonging procedures," not regular
food and water:

Florida Statute 765.309 Mercy killing or euthanasia not authorized;
suicide distinguished. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to
condone, authorize, or approve mercy killing or euthanasia, or to permit
any affirmative or deliberate act or omission to end life other than to
permit the natural process of dying.

MYTH: Many doctors have said that there is no hope for her.
FACT: Dr. Victor Gambone testified that he visits Terri 3 times a year.
His visits last for approximately 10 minutes. He also testified, after
viewing the court videotapes at Terri’s recent trial, that he was
surprised to see Terri’s level of awareness. This doctor is part of a
team hand-picked by her husband, Michael Schiavo, shortly before he
filed to have Terri’s feeding removed. Contrary to Schiavo’s team, 14
independent medical professionals (6 of them neurologists) have given
either statements or testimony that Terri is NOT in a Persistent
Vegetative State. Additionally, there has never been any medical dispute
of Terri’s ability to swallow. Even with this compelling evidence,
Terri’s husband, Michael Schiavo, has denied any form of therapy for her
for over 10 years.

Dr. Melvin Greer, appointed by Schiavo, testified that a doctor need not
examine a patient to know the appropriate medical treatment. He spent
approximately 45 minutes with Terri. Dr. Peter Bambakidis, appointed by
Judge Greer, spent approximately 30 minutes with Terri. Dr. Ronald
Cranford, also appointed by Schiavo and who has publicly labeled himself
“Dr. Death”, spent less than 45 minutes examining and interacting with
Terri.

MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.
FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a
malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was
designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than
$50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s
medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection. Court records,
however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s
medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly
awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney,
George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo
hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund,
publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on
national television to promote his newly published book.

MYTH: Michael Schiavo volunteered to donate the balance of the
inheritance to charity.
FACT: In October, 1998, Schiavo’s attorney proposed that, if Terri’s
parents would agree to her death by starvation, Schiavo would donate his
inheritance to charity. The proposal came after a court-appointed
Guardian Ad Litem cited Schiavo’s conflict of interest since he stood to
inherit the balance of Terri’s medical fund upon her death. This one and
only offer stated “if the proposal is not fully accepted within 10 days,
it shall automatically be withdrawn”. Naturally, Terri’s parents
immediately rejected the offer.

MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.
FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's
Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:

Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust
fund (jury awarded 1992)

NOTE:  In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993
guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley
Atty Deborah Bushnell
Atty Steve Nilson
Atty Pacarek
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL)
Atty George Felos

$10,668.05
$65,607.00
$7,404.95
$1,500.00
$4,511.95
$397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank

$55,459.85

Michael Schiavo

$10,929.95

Total  $545,852.34

Monsignor Thaddeus Malanowski expresses dismay after he is ordered not
to give Communion to Terri.

Florida Laws

FS 744.102: To "meet essential requirements for health or safety" means
to take those actions necessary to provide the health care, food,
shelter, clothing, personal hygiene, or other care without which serious
and imminent physical injury or illness is more likely than not to occur.

Here's a timeline from the family of the events...

        A comprehensive Timeline and Archive of the Terri Schindler-Schiavo case
.
Since her collapse in 1990, Terri's situation has taken many turns.
While her family fights to restore her human rights, a long battle has
taken place both in the courts and in the hearts of Americans and those
abroad

We hope this timeline will help make Terri's case more clear and show
you why this is such an important cause.

Some of these entries are links to documents and court records that you
can read through. Unless specified, these documents are in Acrobat
Reader format.

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation
Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of
therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with  lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially
fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as
Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of
infection could result in Terri's death.

1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially
fatal infection.

1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical
records.

1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition
and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to
remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family
agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.

1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.

2000

Jan -  Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb –  Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb -  Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove
Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's
case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1  - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files  motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies
Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's
jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about
Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume
Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional
feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is
not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of
Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments
Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not
in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible
vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to
decide whether Terri  should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary
hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's
feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop
Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence
presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd
District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule
Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court
neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the
tests .

2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to
be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary
guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary
hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the
Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
2  Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain
medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and
neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their
professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing,
Judge Greer -approved- payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological
tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2  - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing
Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s
to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22        Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney
Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence
suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District
Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the
January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney
Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his
objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to
conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending
appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to
overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney
motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order.
Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled
Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.

2003

Guardian Removal Petition Still Pending…
On November 15, 2002, attorney Anderson filed a petition with Judge
Greer to remove Michael Schiavo as Terri’s legal guardian. The petition
included a declaration of Adversary Proceedings, ...

read more »

I have to admit being torn about this case.
  On the one hand, we would generally consider it "humane" to kill the
family pet if it were in much better condition than Ms. Schiavo; say
severely arthritic, partially paralyzed perhaps, or old, blind, deaf,
and mostly immobile.
  We aren't generally as "humane" to people as we are to our livestock
or pets, it seems.
  But that's more a critique of our general attitude toward humans vs
non-humans.
  My wife's 97 year old grandmother is in a nursing home, having been
put their recently because she could not take care of herself at home
any longer. She's practically immobile, mostly deaf and blind, and is
in constant pain. She undergoes the indignity of young people coming
'round to change her diapers, put her in a chair and leaving her there
until she is slumped over and almost falling out.
  My wife and I and her brother make routine but unscheduled visits to
make sure she's ok and being treated properly; we're considering
bringing her home and taking care of her ourselves because of how
unhappy we are with the nursing home treatment, but she may have a
persistant infectious disease, she has meds she needs, and would need
24 hour care.
  So we're torn about that, too.

  In the case of Ms. Schiavo, her parents want to take care of and
treat and try to rehabilitate her. It may be too late, if she's been
largely ignored for so long, but they want to try. The husband wants to
put it behind him and move on, and apparently has for some time.

  If he's motivated by the need to move on, then perhaps he should make
a deal allowing for divorce, her settlement money taking care of
outstanding medical bills, and leave her in the hands of her parents.
  If he's motivated by money, then he needs to be married to her when
she dies, in order to gain her estate (or what's left of it after the
debt collectors get their part).

  In either case, it seems her fate lies in the hands of people who
would be more "humane" to a non-human than they are to their "loved
ones".

Truly a sad case, and one that cries out for compassion and empathy for
everyone involved, including we the spectators who try to carry this
question into our own lives and apply it to those that we love.

   Best Regards,
        mark evins

We don't starve animals to death... it's against the law I think.

But I think you reversed it here. We starve a person, but not an animal??

One of the most wrenching of decisions. I feel for the complexity. High
an immigrant women, find them, someone who's glad to live in your home,
and who can stay with her, and nurture her. Everyone chip in for the
money. She'll be healthier, and happier... when it's time to do nothing
extraordinary... then let her go, and wish her well and everyone say
goodbye. The old fashioned way. JMO.

He could divorce her, he could take the money. They don't want it.

They don't want the money. He can have it.

You got that right. I know how hard those decisions are, how much time
it takes, and how difficult it is, when we don't live in communities
surrounded by family and neighbors who can chip in to care for the very
helpless or very aged and infirm.

Mark

In article <CMV_d.9379$2g7.4...@fe10.lga>,
 Mark Goldberg <msgoldb...@optonline.net> wrote:

You think her brain is going to grow back, Mark?  I have bad news.  That
doesn't happen.

I suspect if you do some digging you will find that they are the two
doctors hand-picked by Schiavo's parents to say exactly what they want
them to say.  A court-appointed independent doctor said that they were
wrong, and that their claims that Terry could be rehabilitated had no
factual basis.

Her consciousness, as I said earlier.

Unless you actually believe in Biblical miracles the probability that
Terry Schiavo still exists as a consciousness, or will ever exist again,
is zero.

A court-appointed independent expert said that her prospects for
"improvement" are zero.

The parts of her brain that make consciousness possible simply do not
exist.  You can no more be conscious with that chunk of brain missing
that you can jog with no legs.  Your chances of growing it back are
about the same as your chances of growing legs back.

Yup.  The RC church has a number of truly idiotic and evil "moral"
beliefs which RC members are expected to follow and parrot as if the RC
church were infallible... which of course they pretend to be.

Among them is the idea that euthanasia is evil because the RC church
says so.

So the fact that her parents and many of her parent's supporters are RC
is the big clue that their behaviour may be based on religious
grandstanding rather than any rationally based belief in the continued
existence of Terry Schiavo the human being.

Courts have been all over this for years, Mark.  They took the time to
get the facts on the case rather than cutting and pasting from biased
press releases, and they concluded that Terry Schiavo has no
consciousness, Terry Schiavo has zero chance of recovery, Terry Schiavo
herself would not have wanted to be kept alive under these
circumstances, and that Terry Schiavo's husband has the right to make
the call on whether or not treatment is continued.

Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.