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Any Counter/escape for over-the-shoulder?
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David O'Daniel
May 12, 2013, 4:13:59 AM5/12/13
to
What is the best or any way to escape/counter an over the shoulder
arm-bar (hyper-extension of the elbow across one's shoulder), while
facing away from the opponent (looking same direction = back to
opponent) and with opponent's hand trapped, probably in a wrist lock,
most probably with palm facing out/forward & fingers down, pulling back
on the opponent's hand to put pressure on the wrist & keep the arm
locked. AKA Flying Mair.
There is an Eagle-claw chin-na video with their claimed next counter
that somehow magically has the formerly held opponent, able to move to
in front of the former defender and trap their hand with a wristlock
that seems to be then pushing the defender's hand/wrist in & down (in
towards their face, palm facing their face so pushing on the the back of
their hand & pulling down). This seems unlikely to go from point A
trapped to point B having turned the tables .. in this particular way.
So, any suggestions, techniques, NON-political insights?
Bo
arm-bar (hyper-extension of the elbow across one's shoulder), while
facing away from the opponent (looking same direction = back to
opponent) and with opponent's hand trapped, probably in a wrist lock,
most probably with palm facing out/forward & fingers down, pulling back
on the opponent's hand to put pressure on the wrist & keep the arm
locked. AKA Flying Mair.
There is an Eagle-claw chin-na video with their claimed next counter
that somehow magically has the formerly held opponent, able to move to
in front of the former defender and trap their hand with a wristlock
that seems to be then pushing the defender's hand/wrist in & down (in
towards their face, palm facing their face so pushing on the the back of
their hand & pulling down). This seems unlikely to go from point A
trapped to point B having turned the tables .. in this particular way.
So, any suggestions, techniques, NON-political insights?
Bo
nemo_outis
May 12, 2013, 5:31:15 PM5/12/13
to
OK, let's make sure I have the correct starting point...
1) your (attacking) opponent is (say) facing north.
2) you (defending) are directly behind him, your belly to his
back, also facing north.
3) he has your right arm over his right shoulder (NOT your
left arm over his right shoulder which results in you being
'beside/behind' him as opposed to pure 'behind' him)
4) your trapped right arm is palm up (although your wrist may
be bent so your palm is more facing forwards/north rather than
purely 'up'), and he is pulling down on your hand/forearm
threatening to overextend your elbow.
Right?
First point: if you (the victim) are significantly taller than
your opponent (the fellow applying the lock) it just won't
work.
If I've got the scenario correct, there are some chin-na-ish
escapes but there are also some more direct ones of which the
following is the most simplest:
1a) (before he completely immobilizes you on your tiptoes as
he breaks your elbow) use your left hand to (pick one!) - a)
claw his eyes, b) cup his chin, c) grab his left shoulder,
with the intent of rotating his head to the left (perhaps
simultaneously inflicting some serious wear and tear), while;
1b) stomping your left instep against the back of his left
knee, buckling it, and collapsing him
1c) as he buckles/collapses you drag/spiral him
backwards/downwards and you're in good position for a rear
naked choke (or a zillion other techniques) using either your
free left arm or your (previously locked but now mostly/nearly
free) right arm.
Regards,
PS There are other techniques such as ones based on hip
thrust but the above is simplest to describe or to do.
PPS The head rotation, even without collapsing him, makes it
a bitch for him to hyperextend your elbow - his body mechanics
are compromised.
Boju...@webtv.net (David O'Daniel) wrote in
news:18268-518...@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net:
1) your (attacking) opponent is (say) facing north.
2) you (defending) are directly behind him, your belly to his
back, also facing north.
3) he has your right arm over his right shoulder (NOT your
left arm over his right shoulder which results in you being
'beside/behind' him as opposed to pure 'behind' him)
4) your trapped right arm is palm up (although your wrist may
be bent so your palm is more facing forwards/north rather than
purely 'up'), and he is pulling down on your hand/forearm
threatening to overextend your elbow.
Right?
First point: if you (the victim) are significantly taller than
your opponent (the fellow applying the lock) it just won't
work.
If I've got the scenario correct, there are some chin-na-ish
escapes but there are also some more direct ones of which the
following is the most simplest:
1a) (before he completely immobilizes you on your tiptoes as
he breaks your elbow) use your left hand to (pick one!) - a)
claw his eyes, b) cup his chin, c) grab his left shoulder,
with the intent of rotating his head to the left (perhaps
simultaneously inflicting some serious wear and tear), while;
1b) stomping your left instep against the back of his left
knee, buckling it, and collapsing him
1c) as he buckles/collapses you drag/spiral him
backwards/downwards and you're in good position for a rear
naked choke (or a zillion other techniques) using either your
free left arm or your (previously locked but now mostly/nearly
free) right arm.
Regards,
PS There are other techniques such as ones based on hip
thrust but the above is simplest to describe or to do.
PPS The head rotation, even without collapsing him, makes it
a bitch for him to hyperextend your elbow - his body mechanics
are compromised.
Boju...@webtv.net (David O'Daniel) wrote in
news:18268-518...@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net:
Mighty Wannabe
May 12, 2013, 5:42:22 PM5/12/13
to
talking about:
** http://barrybecker4.com/aikido/images/katate_dori/arm_bar_over_shoulder_s.jpg
**
Just like last time you asked what to do if someone grabs your hand, I
told you to ignore the hand that has been grabbed and use your other
hand to attack the guy who is grabbing your one hand with both of his
hands; in this over-the-shoulder armbar, the guy is using his two
hands to control your one hand and your other hand is free to attack
him. If you are trained in Eagle Claw or Chin Na, you should have very
power fingers; just use your free hand to grab his throat to crush his
trachea and rip it out. Alternatively you can dig your fingers into
his eye socket and gouge out his eyeball.
Only Aussie dumb fucks like Fraser Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS
GreenDistantStar) would think that BJJ beats everything, ignoring the
fact the UFC rules forbid any effective techniques that can stop the
progress of leg-humping. If elbow-strike using the pointy bone tip of
the elbow is allowed, every fucking leg-humping fool like Fraser
Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have
dropped dead by elbow-strike to the head, back of the neck, back of
the lung, and spine while attempting a takedown. And while on the
ground, the fucking delusional leg-humping fools like Fraser Johnston
and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have their fucking
fingers pried open ripped apart, Throat grabbed and trachea crushed
and ripped out, and their stupid eyes gouged out of their
motherfucking eye sockets.
nemo_outis
May 12, 2013, 5:46:14 PM5/12/13
to
"nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote in
news:XnsA1BE93B73...@69.16.185.250:
Followup...
The trick with this, as with most chin-na-ish stuff, is to
counter *as* he is putting it on, not *after* once it's locked
up solid.
The 'feeling' is this: he must rotate into you to get his back
to your belly. Your counter *helps* him in his endeavour, by
making him OVER-rotate (while also hurting him and collapsing
him). As such it doesn't take great strength or force, you just
make him *over-emphasize* his intended motion.
Regards,
news:XnsA1BE93B73...@69.16.185.250:
Followup...
The trick with this, as with most chin-na-ish stuff, is to
counter *as* he is putting it on, not *after* once it's locked
up solid.
The 'feeling' is this: he must rotate into you to get his back
to your belly. Your counter *helps* him in his endeavour, by
making him OVER-rotate (while also hurting him and collapsing
him). As such it doesn't take great strength or force, you just
make him *over-emphasize* his intended motion.
Regards,
nemo_outis
May 12, 2013, 6:25:17 PM5/12/13
to
"nemo_outis" <a...@xyz.com> wrote in
news:XnsA1BE96410...@69.16.185.250:
Secondary followup...
Once you understand the principle of this counter to the
technique (recognizing other counters may use other principles)
all the details are secondary: which hand to use, which foot to
move, grab or stomp or push or pull, etc. Some particular
details may be unavailable in some scenarios, but the broad
principle will work across many scenarios. Understand the
principle - don't get caught up in details - real combat is
messy - it won't be exactly like the gym!
The principle of the particular counter I described is: Make him
over-rotate. Once you grasp the principle all else is mere
detail.
For instance, a very aikido-ish counter would be: As he, having
obtained control of your right arm, rotates into you (who are
facing north) you:
Move your left foot in a largish step to your SE and then
strongly pivot your torso (counterclockwise from above) to over-
rotate him and, *as part of the flow*, 'cast him down' with the
very same right arm he was in the process of locking up (with
possible assistance from your grasping/clawing left arm).
In short, for this particular counter (other counters will use
other guiding principles) the guiding principle is: make him
over-rotate. All else is detail!
Regards,
news:XnsA1BE96410...@69.16.185.250:
Secondary followup...
Once you understand the principle of this counter to the
technique (recognizing other counters may use other principles)
all the details are secondary: which hand to use, which foot to
move, grab or stomp or push or pull, etc. Some particular
details may be unavailable in some scenarios, but the broad
principle will work across many scenarios. Understand the
principle - don't get caught up in details - real combat is
messy - it won't be exactly like the gym!
The principle of the particular counter I described is: Make him
over-rotate. Once you grasp the principle all else is mere
detail.
For instance, a very aikido-ish counter would be: As he, having
obtained control of your right arm, rotates into you (who are
facing north) you:
Move your left foot in a largish step to your SE and then
strongly pivot your torso (counterclockwise from above) to over-
rotate him and, *as part of the flow*, 'cast him down' with the
very same right arm he was in the process of locking up (with
possible assistance from your grasping/clawing left arm).
In short, for this particular counter (other counters will use
other guiding principles) the guiding principle is: make him
over-rotate. All else is detail!
Regards,
David O'Daniel
May 13, 2013, 3:40:48 AM5/13/13
to
Ok, say the attacker is on the outside, so Nemo's #3 is that they have
your right arm over their left shoulder. The other way can be done if
the attacker ends up on the inside & can try to quickly do the
dislocate, throw even or just pain but to be on the outside is a better
position if it works out or time enough to move the defenders arm over
your/attacker's head, to your opposite shoulder.
Though BTW, in an earlier sequence where it is a similar situation with
the defender's arm-pit as the pivot point for a throw, the rear naked
choke was already used as a technique. So to continue to try to come up
with all possible general categories not too similar, I'd be looking for
another counter. I just don't feel that the afor-mentioned Eagle-claw
chin-na freely just stepping around as if ou were the Flash, is workable
with a resisting opponent trying to lock your elbow.
Thanks for the respons, Nemo.
PS. Really REALLY hard to actualy "break" an elbow long-bone-head. Much
easier to dislocate. While it looks like some bone was snapped, a
dislocate/super-hyper-extending the elbow, is NOT a broken bone. This is
a vastly wide-spread misconception for some reason.
Bo
your right arm over their left shoulder. The other way can be done if
the attacker ends up on the inside & can try to quickly do the
dislocate, throw even or just pain but to be on the outside is a better
position if it works out or time enough to move the defenders arm over
your/attacker's head, to your opposite shoulder.
Though BTW, in an earlier sequence where it is a similar situation with
the defender's arm-pit as the pivot point for a throw, the rear naked
choke was already used as a technique. So to continue to try to come up
with all possible general categories not too similar, I'd be looking for
another counter. I just don't feel that the afor-mentioned Eagle-claw
chin-na freely just stepping around as if ou were the Flash, is workable
with a resisting opponent trying to lock your elbow.
Thanks for the respons, Nemo.
PS. Really REALLY hard to actualy "break" an elbow long-bone-head. Much
easier to dislocate. While it looks like some bone was snapped, a
dislocate/super-hyper-extending the elbow, is NOT a broken bone. This is
a vastly wide-spread misconception for some reason.
Bo
David O'Daniel
May 13, 2013, 3:52:17 AM5/13/13
to
Wannabe's pic of an inside Aikido arm-bar is the one in point #3 of
nemo's post that was already discussed as the lesser desirable position
for an arm-bar, needing to be done quickly due to the vulnerability to
the free hand, as Wannabe mentions.
I'm not in Eagle-claw, just researching Chin Na, trying to eliminate
total exact repetitions in the strings of techniques, borrowing from
many systems. In that I'm trying to categorise chin na techniques, yes,
I'm trying to stick to counters by other chin na techniques. As is, the
throw from under their arm-pit & the thorw/lock at their elbow is
already borerline same technique anyways. Other chin na sequences are
not so suttle & are blatent repetitions of the exact technique or just
reverse side. I've been working on this since 2010.
Bo
nemo's post that was already discussed as the lesser desirable position
for an arm-bar, needing to be done quickly due to the vulnerability to
the free hand, as Wannabe mentions.
I'm not in Eagle-claw, just researching Chin Na, trying to eliminate
total exact repetitions in the strings of techniques, borrowing from
many systems. In that I'm trying to categorise chin na techniques, yes,
I'm trying to stick to counters by other chin na techniques. As is, the
throw from under their arm-pit & the thorw/lock at their elbow is
already borerline same technique anyways. Other chin na sequences are
not so suttle & are blatent repetitions of the exact technique or just
reverse side. I've been working on this since 2010.
Bo
David O'Daniel
May 13, 2013, 4:14:47 AM5/13/13
to
Thanks Wannabe & Nemo. Thinking of the defender using his other hand,
even with the attacker outside but rather to push against the attacker's
back/shoulder to get the defender's elbow past/behind the attacker's
shoulder, at least escaping.
In Chn Na sequence fashion, assuming thoughthat the grip can be reversed
sot hat the defender somehow is able to quickly grab the attacker's
formerly gripping hand, ideally the left hand that had tried to lock
your right wrist or at least locking your arm. If you can suspende
disbelief to reverse the grips, then as defender pushes attacker's
shoulder & has leverage to pull theirdefener's arm back past attacker's
shoulder (achromiam<SP?>), while defender's right hand pulls the
attacker's arm back = bending the attacker's elbow & pointing said elbow
forward (North), then maybe even Defender's Knee could come up to hold
against the attacker's back, while the defender releases their pushing
left hand from the back & reaches past to forward & grabs the attacker's
bend left elbow; probably under the tricep near the elbow joint.
Then the defender could continue to pull back with the attacker's
trapped hand/wrist whle pulling back &/or up with defender's left hand
to pull back &/or up, the elbow, even stomping their legs in from behind
the knee, to ensure the attacker is pulled to the ground backwrds to
hold. Probably want to then stomp on the attacker's torso somewhere to
keep them from rolling up to kick at you as they roll back into you.
OR, rather than back & up: defender's left hand could push the
attacker's left elbow to the right (for both ppl) across the attacker's
chest & then pull them down to the left, even leading into a trapped
left arm choke of the attacker.
Either of these counters could lead to the next counter in the series
that I've been working on & thus fill the gab of the eagle-claw chin na
move that seemed far too out of place.
Thanks again for the help.
Bo
even with the attacker outside but rather to push against the attacker's
back/shoulder to get the defender's elbow past/behind the attacker's
shoulder, at least escaping.
In Chn Na sequence fashion, assuming thoughthat the grip can be reversed
sot hat the defender somehow is able to quickly grab the attacker's
formerly gripping hand, ideally the left hand that had tried to lock
your right wrist or at least locking your arm. If you can suspende
disbelief to reverse the grips, then as defender pushes attacker's
shoulder & has leverage to pull theirdefener's arm back past attacker's
shoulder (achromiam<SP?>), while defender's right hand pulls the
attacker's arm back = bending the attacker's elbow & pointing said elbow
forward (North), then maybe even Defender's Knee could come up to hold
against the attacker's back, while the defender releases their pushing
left hand from the back & reaches past to forward & grabs the attacker's
bend left elbow; probably under the tricep near the elbow joint.
Then the defender could continue to pull back with the attacker's
trapped hand/wrist whle pulling back &/or up with defender's left hand
to pull back &/or up, the elbow, even stomping their legs in from behind
the knee, to ensure the attacker is pulled to the ground backwrds to
hold. Probably want to then stomp on the attacker's torso somewhere to
keep them from rolling up to kick at you as they roll back into you.
OR, rather than back & up: defender's left hand could push the
attacker's left elbow to the right (for both ppl) across the attacker's
chest & then pull them down to the left, even leading into a trapped
left arm choke of the attacker.
Either of these counters could lead to the next counter in the series
that I've been working on & thus fill the gab of the eagle-claw chin na
move that seemed far too out of place.
Thanks again for the help.
Bo
Daniel
May 13, 2013, 5:55:58 PM5/13/13
to
Mighty Wannabe
May 13, 2013, 7:46:22 PM5/13/13
to
On May 13, 5:55 pm, Daniel <nidan.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 13 May 2013 07:42:22 UTC+10, Mighty Wannabe wrote:
> > On May 12, 4:13 am, Bojut...@webtv.net (David O'Daniel) wrote:
>
> > > What is the best or any way to escape/counter an over the shoulder
>
> > > arm-bar (hyper-extension of the elbow across one's shoulder), while
>
> > > facing away from the opponent (looking same direction = back to
>
> > > opponent) and with opponent's hand trapped, probably in a wrist lock,
>
> > > most probably with palm facing out/forward & fingers down, pulling back
>
> > > on the opponent's hand to put pressure on the wrist & keep the arm
>
> > > locked. AKA Flying Mair.
>
> > > There is an Eagle-claw chin-na video with their claimed next counter
>
> > > that somehow magically has the formerly held opponent, able to move to
>
> > > in front of the former defender and trap their hand with a wristlock
>
> > > that seems to be then pushing the defender's hand/wrist in & down (in
>
> > > towards their face, palm facing their face so pushing on the the back of
>
> > > their hand & pulling down). This seems unlikely to go from point A
>
> > > trapped to point B having turned the tables .. in this particular way.
>
> > > So, any suggestions, techniques, NON-political insights?
>
> > > Bo
>
> > The following Aikido over-the-shoulder armbar is the scenario you are
>
> > talking about:
>
> > ** http://barrybecker4.com/aikido/images/katate_dori/arm_bar_over_should...
> On Monday, 13 May 2013 07:42:22 UTC+10, Mighty Wannabe wrote:
> > On May 12, 4:13 am, Bojut...@webtv.net (David O'Daniel) wrote:
>
> > > What is the best or any way to escape/counter an over the shoulder
>
> > > arm-bar (hyper-extension of the elbow across one's shoulder), while
>
> > > facing away from the opponent (looking same direction = back to
>
> > > opponent) and with opponent's hand trapped, probably in a wrist lock,
>
> > > most probably with palm facing out/forward & fingers down, pulling back
>
> > > on the opponent's hand to put pressure on the wrist & keep the arm
>
> > > locked. AKA Flying Mair.
>
> > > There is an Eagle-claw chin-na video with their claimed next counter
>
> > > that somehow magically has the formerly held opponent, able to move to
>
> > > in front of the former defender and trap their hand with a wristlock
>
> > > that seems to be then pushing the defender's hand/wrist in & down (in
>
> > > towards their face, palm facing their face so pushing on the the back of
>
> > > their hand & pulling down). This seems unlikely to go from point A
>
> > > trapped to point B having turned the tables .. in this particular way.
>
> > > So, any suggestions, techniques, NON-political insights?
>
> > > Bo
>
> > The following Aikido over-the-shoulder armbar is the scenario you are
>
> > talking about:
>
>
> > **
>
> > Just like last time you asked what to do if someone grabs your hand, I
>
> > told you to ignore the hand that has been grabbed and use your other
>
> > hand to attack the guy who is grabbing your one hand with both of his
>
> > hands; in this over-the-shoulder armbar, the guy is using his two
>
> > hands to control your one hand and your other hand is free to attack
>
> > him. If you are trained in Eagle Claw or Chin Na, you should have very
>
> > power fingers; just use your free hand to grab his throat to crush his
>
> > trachea and rip it out. Alternatively you can dig your fingers into
>
> > his eye socket and gouge out his eyeball.
>
> > Only Aussie dumb fucks like Fraser Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS
>
> > GreenDistantStar) would think that BJJ beats everything, ignoring the
>
> > fact the UFC rules forbid any effective techniques that can stop the
>
> > progress of leg-humping. If elbow-strike using the pointy bone tip of
>
> > the elbow is allowed, every fucking leg-humping fool like Fraser
>
> > Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have
>
> > dropped dead by elbow-strike to the head, back of the neck, back of
>
> > the lung, and spine while attempting a takedown. And while on the
>
> > ground, the fucking delusional leg-humping fools like Fraser Johnston
>
> > and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have their fucking
>
> > fingers pried open ripped apart, Throat grabbed and trachea crushed
>
> > and ripped out, and their stupid eyes gouged out of their
>
> > motherfucking eye sockets.
>
> the OP did ask for non-political insights. you, the idiot, continue to peddle your crap. you speak as if you actually know something about what you write. how many tracheas have u ripped out? how many eyeballs gouged? none... of course none... you are an idiot
Do you ask a knife instructor how many throats he has cut?
> > **
>
> > Just like last time you asked what to do if someone grabs your hand, I
>
> > told you to ignore the hand that has been grabbed and use your other
>
> > hand to attack the guy who is grabbing your one hand with both of his
>
> > hands; in this over-the-shoulder armbar, the guy is using his two
>
> > hands to control your one hand and your other hand is free to attack
>
> > him. If you are trained in Eagle Claw or Chin Na, you should have very
>
> > power fingers; just use your free hand to grab his throat to crush his
>
> > trachea and rip it out. Alternatively you can dig your fingers into
>
> > his eye socket and gouge out his eyeball.
>
> > Only Aussie dumb fucks like Fraser Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS
>
> > GreenDistantStar) would think that BJJ beats everything, ignoring the
>
> > fact the UFC rules forbid any effective techniques that can stop the
>
> > progress of leg-humping. If elbow-strike using the pointy bone tip of
>
> > the elbow is allowed, every fucking leg-humping fool like Fraser
>
> > Johnston and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have
>
> > dropped dead by elbow-strike to the head, back of the neck, back of
>
> > the lung, and spine while attempting a takedown. And while on the
>
> > ground, the fucking delusional leg-humping fools like Fraser Johnston
>
> > and Peter Dellys (aka GDS GreenDistantStar) would have their fucking
>
> > fingers pried open ripped apart, Throat grabbed and trachea crushed
>
> > and ripped out, and their stupid eyes gouged out of their
>
> > motherfucking eye sockets.
>
> the OP did ask for non-political insights. you, the idiot, continue to peddle your crap. you speak as if you actually know something about what you write. how many tracheas have u ripped out? how many eyeballs gouged? none... of course none... you are an idiot
You are an idiot. No wonder you cannot find any pussy to eat. I think
the yeast infection has gone into your brain. Is your brain itching at
all?
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