Match the martial art - part 2
yan...@vnet.ibm.com
probably end up with a few more, since my post hasn't been up there too
long.) So far I've had recommendations for Aikido, Wing Chun, Tai Chi,
and Judo (with Jujutsu mixed in). On the area of limited vision, I've
received comments on this for both Aikido and Wing Chun (although it
seems that this varies depending upon the dojo / class / whatever).
Although I would observe the instructor with my glasses on, I'd actually
prefer not to wear them when executing the technique(s) / sparring:
1) if I can do a technique without glasses, then getting them knocked off
won't be a problem, and 2) keeps the glasses from getting munged.
Ignoring the "conflict as a last resort" issue for a moment, let's take
this to the extreme case: (ignoring any problems with observing the
instructor) if you were totally devoid of sight (no blurs, no light and
dark shadows, nothing) and you couldn't assume that your opponent was
at a similar disadvantage, what kind of training would you want?
(I've already heard hints of this for both Aikido and Wing Chun.)
(For those following the other thread, what would the Road Runner do if
he had to wear a blindfold? :-) )
Thanks again,
-Ivan Yanasak yan...@vnet.ibm.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Stave
|> Ignoring the "conflict as a last resort" issue for a moment, let's take
|> this to the extreme case: (ignoring any problems with observing the
|> instructor) if you were totally devoid of sight (no blurs, no light and
|> dark shadows, nothing) and you couldn't assume that your opponent was
|> at a similar disadvantage, what kind of training would you want?
|> (I've already heard hints of this for both Aikido and Wing Chun.)
Some sort of grappling art like judo or jujitsu. I had a blind
guy wipe the mat with me way back when I studied judo.
--
Joel Stave
st...@apollo.hp.com
Abe Mathews
>Ignoring the "conflict as a last resort" issue for a moment, let's take
>this to the extreme case: (ignoring any problems with observing the
>instructor) if you were totally devoid of sight (no blurs, no light and
>dark shadows, nothing) and you couldn't assume that your opponent was
>at a similar disadvantage, what kind of training would you want?
>(I've already heard hints of this for both Aikido and Wing Chun.)
I've only been studying Aikido for a short time, but I really enjoy it.
As
far as Wing Chun, I don't know anything (I don't think that I've ever seen
Wing Chun). With this disclaimer out of the way ...
I also have a problem with my vision. My depth perception is *way*
off, and my eyesight is very poor (like, almost blind) in one eye. This
has not seemed to affect my Aikido training at all. I work with other
students who also have vision problems, and they are able to
compensate as well. Most don't wear their contacts or glasses on the
mat at all.
Our sensei also does a lot of 'touch' training where just feeling the
motion is more important than seeing it. To demonstrate this, we
close our eyes while doing technique to get the feel of what we are
trying to accomplish. Cool stuff. I highly reccomend it.
Just as self-protection and paranoia, I am not attempting in any
way, shape, or form to state that Aikido is the best art. I just
think that it is the best for *me*.
>(For those following the other thread, what would the Road Runner do if
>he had to wear a blindfold? :-) )
He'd use his beep as sonar to navigate through the desert, of course.
Hope it helped-
Abe
Steve Gombosi
I've seen totally blind Judo players who were simply awesome. FWIW,
I've also seen some pretty impressive karateka who were blind as well.
I'd be willing to bet that there are more than a few high-ranking
kendo players with limited or no vision (Joel and Robert would know
better than I).
I think the usual advice applies to someone with limited vision:
Pick a school (and an instructor), not a style.
Be willing to invest some time and effort in the search.
Steve
Jeffrey A Lew
Akido, Judo, and Wing Chun are all good choices. I guess it would have
to depend on your taste. I'm not experienced in akido or judo so I cannot
give any advice about those styles.
Let me just describe some wing chun situations. If you're ever in a situation
like the one you've just described, then this can be a very life threatening
deal. Wing chun was created by a woman. It was devised for smaller people
to quickly overcome larger opponents. It mainly teaches you to drop your
opponent in one blow (like spear hand to throat, thumb to eye, sidekick to
kneecap - extreme cases)
If you are completely blind, you probably have no idea how many
opponents are around you. It's best to finish the first guy off as quickly
as possible and be ready for others. You wouldn't want to put the guy
in a lock of somesort, because you'd be very vulnerable to other attackers.
Wing chun stylists are known to have the fastest hands and the theory of the
wing chun punch is much different than those styles that use the normal
straight punch. Wait a minute, I'm kinda going off the subject. Oh well.
My final word of advice it, if you are a pacifist, maybe akido or judo would
be better, becuase wing chun deals with straight to the point, non-glorified,
effective techniques. But then again, if you would rather break arms and legs
or paralyze your opponent for life by dropping him on his head on the concrete
floor, then maybe wing chun isn't for you. By the way, I would not suggest
tae kwon do. You really need to see everything in that style.
I'm saying this from personal experience from tournaments. If you're really
serious about fighting in the dark, try ninjutsu?
Jeff Lew
ja...@cunixa.columbia.cc.edu
Hal Render
an Aikido class. I've always worn mine (been studying for ~ two years) and
haven't had any problems. Of course, my sensei tends to emphasize safety more
than some others I've met.
--
hal render
univ. of colorado at colorado-springs
ren...@massive.uccs.edu
Robert Gillespie
:
<snip>
:
>Akido, Judo, and Wing Chun are all good choices. I guess it would have
>to depend on your taste. I'm not experienced in akido or judo so I cannot
>give any advice about those styles.
>
I have had a little aikido, some Judo, and currently practice Wing Chun. All
of them are devestatingly effective fighting arts in the right hands.
(Not to say that mine are the right hands).
However, all of them can can also be practiced with purely pacifistic and
minimal force self defense tactics.
>Let me just describe some wing chun situations. If you're ever in a situation
>like the one you've just described, then this can be a very life threatening
>deal. Wing chun was created by a woman. It was devised for smaller people
>to quickly overcome larger opponents. It mainly teaches you to drop your
>opponent in one blow (like spear hand to throat, thumb to eye, sidekick to
>kneecap - extreme cases)
Yes, Wing Chun had women involved in its creation, but I would argue that
judo and aikido share this same property of allowing smaller people to quickly
overcome larger opponents (sport versions of judo *possibly* excluded).
I don't know of the judoka who would not advocate using whatever tactics are
needed in a life or death situation, thumb in the eye not excluded. It's
just that many of them feel they are able to defend themselves adequately
within the realm of the more traditional syllabus.
Yes, Wing Chun can involve strikes to vital regions, but no, Wing Chun does
not emphasize this to the exclusion of all other techniques.
It would be possible to practice Wing Chun in accordance with the purest and
most peaceful principles of aikido, there are plenty of minimum force
techniques.
Also, many aikidoka will either use atemi waza as strikes to vital areas, or
combine their aikido with strikes from other arts in a self defense
situation.
> If you are completely blind, you probably have no idea how many
>opponents are around you. It's best to finish the first guy off as quickly
>as possible and be ready for others. You wouldn't want to put the guy
>in a lock of somesort, because you'd be very vulnerable to other attackers.
>Wing chun stylists are known to have the fastest hands and the theory of the
>wing chun punch is much different than those styles that use the normal
>straight punch. Wait a minute, I'm kinda going off the subject. Oh well.
>
Aikido has plenty of one against many techniques, and many of the throws in
judo take no longer to apply than striking techniques. Also, putting someone
in a lock can be a good way to put them between you and someone else.
I would like to think that Wing Chun people have the fastest hands, but alas
it is not true, look at mine.
Although some very "fast handed" people have become Wing Chun practitioners,
their hands are on the average no faster than anyone elses. It is just that
Wing Chun types try to get as fast and as efficient as they can.
Yes, it is true that the theory behind the Wing Chun punch is markedly
different from the normal straight punch.
> My final word of advice it, if you are a pacifist, maybe akido or judo would
>be better, becuase wing chun deals with straight to the point, non-glorified,
>effective techniques.
This is only true of the self defense aspects of Wing Chun, and even then
only if you choose to apply them that way.
It is quite possible that many instructors might concentrate on these aspects,
but this is equivalent to an instructor in *any* martial art focusing on the
brutal self defense aspects.
Wing Chun is a complete martial art, its got forms, theories, tactics,
sensitivity training, sparring, chi kung, poems, a secret handshake, and these
nifty little membership cards...
>But then again, if you would rather break arms and legs
>or paralyze your opponent for life by dropping him on his head on the concrete
>floor, then maybe wing chun isn't for you.
Yeah, if you want to do that then prison is for you.
rg
Terry Chan
+
+Wing Chun is a complete martial art, its got forms, theories, tactics,
+sensitivity training, sparring, chi kung, poems, a secret handshake, and
+these nifty little membership cards...
But does it have a retirement plan and a golden parachute? Meikdo does.
Terry "And if there's no secret decoder ring, I'm not interested" Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division | Internet: TWC...@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory |
Berkeley, California USA 94720 | Myopia is as far as the eye can see.
Robert Gillespie
Ah, but there is a secret decoder ring, it's just that these are closed
door techniques...
rg
Neil_Gendzwill
>I've seen totally blind Judo players who were simply awesome. FWIW,
>I've also seen some pretty impressive karateka who were blind as well.
>I'd be willing to bet that there are more than a few high-ranking
>kendo players with limited or no vision (Joel and Robert would know
>better than I).
I don't know about blind. Before I got contacts I fought without
glasses and my vision is about 20/200. I prefer the precise vision
but its not absolutely necessary. One friend of mine who is about
nidan fights with vision worse than 20/400. He doesn't appear to
have too much trouble - nails me fairly frequently. I've found you have
to get used to it - you can't switch suddenly from good vision to
bad, although vice-versa is no problem. So my advice is merely
to always practise without your glasses.
>Steve
------------------------------------------------------------------- _
| Gain peace of mind: wack someone over the head with a big stick | ---
------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| Neil Gendzwill, Saskatoon Kendo Club | s...@skorpio.usask.ca | | | /
------------------------------------------------------------------- | |/
Joel Stave
In article <1993Apr22....@craycos.com> s...@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
|>I'd be willing to bet that there are more than a few high-ranking
|>kendo players with limited or no vision (Joel and Robert would know
|>better than I).
There's always the famous Zatoichi, the blind swordsman ;-)
In article <1r7vfe$s...@access.usask.ca>, s...@skorpio.usask.ca (Neil_Gendzwill) writes:
|> I don't know about blind. Before I got contacts I fought without
|> glasses and my vision is about 20/200. I prefer the precise vision
|> but its not absolutely necessary. One friend of mine who is about
|> nidan fights with vision worse than 20/400. He doesn't appear to
|> have too much trouble - nails me fairly frequently. I've found you have
|> to get used to it - you can't switch suddenly from good vision to
|> bad, although vice-versa is no problem. So my advice is merely
|> to always practise without your glasses.
My eyesight is also in the "worse than 20/400" range (I believe the
proper medical term is "piss poor"). Anyway, while I usually fight
wearing soft contacts, upon occasion I have had to fight without
them. The only problem I have is a lack of depth perception. I can
overcome this to some degree by moving my head back and forth to get
some parallax. I still miss sometimes because the person is too far
away or hit too hard because they are closer than I thought, but the
head moving does help a fair amount.
--
Joel Stave
st...@apollo.hp.com
ach...@rosevc.rose-hulman.edu
behind which people have a whale of a time....
Michael Hirsch
IY> Ignoring the "conflict as a last resort" issue for a moment, let's take
IY> this to the extreme case: (ignoring any problems with observing the
IY> instructor) if you were totally devoid of sight (no blurs, no light and
IY> dark shadows, nothing) and you couldn't assume that your opponent was
IY> at a similar disadvantage, what kind of training would you want?
IY> (I've already heard hints of this for both Aikido and Wing Chun.)
There is a blind student at my old Aikido dojo. He is great, but I
have to admit that he is one of the most spacially aware people I've
ever met. I've heard amazing stories about him from his rock climbing
days, too.
He trains the same as everyone else. The only difference is that you
have to make noise as you attack him, also sometime when he attacks.
Generally a loud exhale is enough.
I don't know that Aikido is "the best" for this sort of thing, but he
has proven to me that it is possible.
I still say that the old rule of "go to lots of schools and see what
you like" is the best advice.
BTW, I know lots of people who train and even spar with glasses.
--
Michael D. Hirsch mhi...@cs.princeton.edu
Computer Science Department Voice: (609) 258-1751
Princeton NJ, 08544 FAX: (609) 258-1771
--
Michael D. Hirsch mhi...@cs.princeton.edu
Computer Science Department Voice: (609) 258-1751
Princeton NJ, 08544 FAX: (609) 258-1771
William T. Rankin
In article <1r70c2...@harpo.uccs.edu>, ren...@massive.uccs.edu (Hal Render) writes:
> I don't think you should worry too much about wearing glasses on the mat in
> an Aikido class. I've always worn mine (been studying for ~ two years) and
> haven't had any problems. Of course, my sensei tends to emphasize safety more
> than some others I've met.
hmm, i've always been under the impression that if you wear glasses, you should
most definitely *not* practice in them. this stems from two reasons:
1) if you get into a conflilct, you may or may not have them on at the time,
or they could get knocked off. you need to learn to work without them.
2) a blow to the head could send a piece of your glasses into you eye. for
this reason, if you get into a conflict, you should get rid of your glasses
as quickly as possible.
now, i normally wear contacts, although i have practiced without them before.
definitely a different experience.
-bill
--
/ __/ / /
bill rankin / / /
wra...@egr.duke.edu ___ / / / /
graduate weenie / / / / /
/ / / / /
_______/ __/ __/ __/
David Poore
>There is a blind student at my old Aikido dojo. He is great, but I
>have to admit that he is one of the most spacially aware people I've
>ever met. I've heard amazing stories about him from his rock climbing
>days, too.
I'm quite interested in this. I have a blind friend from my old Wing
Chun school. This art is in many ways ideal for him, since there is so
much emphasis on contact training and tactile sensitivity. However, at
some point one must move on to Chum Kiu Sao (long-range) to continue
developing skills. This has proven to be a rather sticky (pun intended)
point in his training, and unfortunately, he hasn't gotten much at all
from his teacher about how to approach this problem.
I find the suggestion that Michael Hirsch makes, about making noise
prior to attacking, to be very interesting, and in fact this is
something we've tried in the past. I'd like to hear from anyone with
similar experience, whether through blindfolded practice, or experience
with blind people about training methods to develop the mechanisms that
can give such a student the time or clues needed to react at long range.
Thanks...
David Poore
po...@dirac.scri.fsu.edu
Hal Render
:
:
: hmm, i've always been under the impression that if you wear glasses, you should
: most definitely *not* practice in them. this stems from two reasons:
:
: 1) if you get into a conflilct, you may or may not have them on at the time,
: or they could get knocked off. you need to learn to work without them.
:
: 2) a blow to the head could send a piece of your glasses into you eye. for
: this reason, if you get into a conflict, you should get rid of your glasses
: as quickly as possible.
I used to do TKD and now do TSD in addition to Aikido. I always spar without
my glasses in TKD/TSD, mostly due to a couple of pairs of broken glasses and
black eyes. I keep them on for everything else. My own experience is that not
having my glasses doesn't make that much of a difference even though I have
piss-poor vision (-7 or -8 last I knew). Plus, I have plastic lenses, and they
seem pretty tough to break (based on several experiences of being punched and
kicked in the face). I do recommend people learn to spar without their glasses
or contact lenses, but I don't think it is necessary to do without them all
the time. After all, I'd guess that the majority of personal attacks happen
in poorly lighted environments, but we don't recommend that we spend all our
time practicing in the dark.
Alexander Halavais
We trained blindfolded in my judo dojo once in a great while. At the begining
of the class, we would see judoka diving around the dojo in search of a target
untill they got their hands on something they could throw. But after getting
used to it, it becomes much easier.
Judo may be easier in a sense because you really only need to know approximate
location of your opponent, and everything becomes much easier once you have
a hand on him. However, it does not take long to notice small things. Even the
most experienced judoka will exhale quickly before making major body moves.
This may be art-specific, but you can sometimes feel the opponents position
though his depression on the mats. But beyond all this, (without trying to
sound _too_ flaky) you just start to get a feeling of where things, and to
a much greater extent, people, are around you.
Alexander Halavais
ahal...@igc.org