Review: Silat Concepts video from Paladin
Chas
with Joseph Simonet and Addy Hernandez
This is a two volume set of tapes running 150 minutes total- cost is
$90.00.
A few people have contacted me by phone and e-mail to ask what I think
of them. I always hate to speak behind a mans' back, so here it is in
public.
The biggest overall impression that I have is that Joe never studied
Serak except, perhaps, at the most entering novice level.
He did some PPS Tongkat with a Guru, Bob Van Natta, and I've been in
classes with Maha Guru Victor in which he was attending, but I don't
know that he ever studied Serak- if he did, it certainly doesn't show in
these videos.
It's just not there.
There are a bunch of technical and analytical reasons that I think the
tapes are worth little to a prospective practitioner. I could talk about
his naive production of the djurus, and his misunderstanding of what
he's doing; I could talk about his lack of understanding of the body
movement, and the formation of applications, and his lack of concept of
the platforms, the footwork, and the upper body mechanisms- but what it
really boils down to is that this is 2 1/2 hours of wasted time if you
want to either learn or understand Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak.
Joe is a big tough guy. I think he did some Kempo, he maybe did some
Wing Chun- he was exposed to some nuevoFilipino stuff; he's in good
shape, big as a house and has a strong disposition.
But, it's not Serak.
Whatever exposure he had to the art just wasn't enough to catch much.
If you want to learn Serak, the best beginning video presently available
to the public is still Steve Plinck's vid, also from Paladin.
This just doesn't cut it on any level, by any standard, in any manner.
The photography and production was nice.
Chas Clements, Guru
Silat Kilap Betawi Muda de Thouars
Aurora, Colorado
David Williams
"Chas" <gryp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39B6E3C0...@home.com...
> "Discovering the Fight within the Form of Pentjak Silat Serak"
> with Joseph Simonet and Addy Hernandez
Chas
> Isn't this the same guy with the Wooden Dummy video called the "Slam Set"?
Yes.
Have you seen it?
what did you think of the exposition on the instrument?
Chas
http://members.xoom.com/kilap/Keepsafe.htm
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/videos.html
http://www.angelfire.com/co3/jail4judges/index.htm
David Williams
the Jong.
There is a high probability that it is missing the purpose of the use of the
instrument. :)
There is a tendency by -some-, to want to beat the living hell out of the
jong, bashing it and making as much loud noise as possible.
I'd review it if someone sent a free copy. :)
later,
David
"Chas" <gryp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39B8F60A...@home.com...
Chas
> No I have not. I am not hopeful of something named "Slam Set" in regards to
> the Jong.
> There is a high probability that it is missing the purpose of the use of the
> instrument. :)
I never heard anyone called him 'Subtle Old Joe' behind his back-
> There is a tendency by -some-, to want to beat the living hell out of the
> jong, bashing it and making as much loud noise as possible.
You bring to it what you can; it's a progressively more finessed
instrument as one enjoys a deeper sophistication- I would think.
> I'd review it if someone sent a free copy. :)
That's what it took for me too ;^)))
CArena7028
breaks each section down. Joe is probably the most intense man you will ever
meet. I met him at a seminar a year ago and had the opportunity to train with
him and some of his students. I was impressed with the skill displayed.
If you just HAVE to be seriously EXACT in the one style that you feel MUST be
kept PURE and all that stuff, then Joe may not be your cup of tea. But Joe,
like others has been there too. He is just honest enough to present a strong
system based on his experiences. (bieng that he can press 400 lbs and break the
arms off of his dummies gives you the idea that he has developed his art to a
degree that most of us "experts " can only dream about.( I am not the best
chi-sao player in the world, but unless you train hard at it I can be a
challenge, and Joe range my bell hard enough to almost bring me to my knees in
about 1 second from the start of our game!)
Check out his website. "ki systems". look at the quality of people that he is
CERTIFIED under then believe what you want.
Chris
Chas
> If you just HAVE to be seriously EXACT in the one style that you feel MUST be
> kept PURE and all that stuff, then Joe may not be your cup of tea.
I must have made myself unclear.
What Joe does is not Serak- he cannot explore the fight within the form
if he doesn't have any idea about it. This is not some technical little
quibble, it is a *serious* lack of understanding about the concept of
the system.
> ...He is just honest enough to present a strong
> system based on his experiences. (bieng that he can press 400 lbs and break the
> arms off of his dummies gives you the idea that he has developed his art to a
> degree that most of us "experts " can only dream about.
Joe is physically gifted and has nurtured that gift admirably- just goes
to show you how a big, good looking, smart man can be an effective
fighter.
But.
What he does is not Serak. He has some very very serious and basic
misunderstandings of the system and both shows and teaches it in a way
that reflects his previous and subsequent training rather than his
training under a de Thouars' student in an entirely different art. I
have a deep respect and affection for his teacher, Bob Van Natta, but
Bob wasn't teaching him Serak; he was teaching him PPS Tongkat, and
later, PPS Tongkat-Serak. You would have to understand the naming
conventions of Dutch Indonesian arts and the de Thouars' in particular,
but I assure you that what I saw him do had very little to do with
Serak.
I poked no fun at him and I have given him his due for being a martial
artist and a fine athlete. It just isn't Serak and that's what he says
on his tape and his literature.
I haven't even said anything about his huge gaffes in history, protocol
and basic gratitude- I've said nothing of his comparison of himself to
Pak Serak. I'm not dead sure that Joe ever *saw* any Serak. He certainly
doesn't know some of the most basic things about the system, the art or
it's history.
> ( I am not the best
> chi-sao player in the world, but unless you train hard at it I can be a
> challenge, and Joe range my bell hard enough to almost bring me to my knees in
> about 1 second from the start of our game!)
There's a lot to be said about crossing hands with a man of Joe's
physicality under any circumstances and with any art.
You've got to admit that his use of a 5'2", 125 lb. chick as a demodummy
was droll- Joe is about 5'11" and above 230 I would think. Listening to
him say; 'And if Addy attacked me *this* way......'- she comes closer to
moving well and utilizing her whole body in the manner of the system.
> Check out his website. "ki systems". look at the quality of people that he is
> CERTIFIED under then believe what you want.
Nobody said Joe hasn't done a *lot* of arts.
In the tape he says that he's 'studied six arts and is proficient in all
of them'. It was next to the part where he says the Pak Serak studied
nine arts and felt combat proficient in three only.
Why didn't he say how he was going to explore the fighting in some of
the other forms that he really has studied and is 'proficient' in? He
not only didn't do Serak right, he didn't even do the Tongkat very well.
His understanding of the tiga, the pantjar, sliwa and the langka lima
are naive at best.
From the contemptuous manner in which he speaks of Pak Serak and the art
of Mas Djoet and the 'death' of that art- the comparison to a Snake(!),
the broken clavicle statement with Pak Seraks' name- the utter
misunderstanding of why the art works like it does.
Why didn't he mention one of the people he is CERTIFIED under instead of
doing this thing in the name of an art he knows nothing about?
Joe's a tough guy- big, smart and well-trained. But so is Goldberg- and
you don't see *him* doing a Serak tape.
talis_kacnep
Chas wrote:
> CArena7028 wrote:
> > If you just HAVE to be seriously EXACT in the one style that you feel MUST be
> > kept PURE and all that stuff, then Joe may not be your cup of tea.
>
> I must have made myself unclear.
> What Joe does is not Serak- he cannot explore the fight within the form
> if he doesn't have any idea about it. This is not some technical little
> quibble, it is a *serious* lack of understanding about the concept of
> the system.
I saw the video recently. Also got the new Paladin catalogue where he's on the
cover. In his intro, he states that he was a Tongkat black belt and was given the
"thumbs up" to study the parent art. Since "then" he's received his Yang style Tai
Chi and his Doce Pares certs. Never came out and said whether he's certified to
teach (ie, should "know" that which he is teaching) Serak. The cert on the video
refers to Tongkat Serak. From the catalogue the bio says that he is certified to
teach both. I wonder....
His intro states that Pak Serak created the system to address his own unique
attributes but never really goes on to develop what unique qualities the system
contained (vis-a-vis the club foot/one arm attributes) and would have to offer the
modern martial artist. Left me wondering what those unique qualities are, and
whether Joe understands them or is even aware of them. I guess if he is aware of
them, he immediately dismisses them as dead and useless.
Paladin seems content to blow a lot of smoke about the authentic Serak content in
this video, and in credentialing Joe as certified in the art of Serak. Maybe they
see dollar signs based on the sales of the Steve Gartin and Stevan Plinck tapes.
Must make for great marketing, but at $90 bucks a pop, for those looking to find real
info on the art, I have to agree, it's a rip. It's almost an "anti" Serak tape.
Chas, I also didn't get his presentation of the platforms. Did that resemble
anything you are familiar with?
CArena7028
No problem with his art bieng Serak or not. To be honest. As for me, not bieng
a true Selat Player. I can't tell one Silat style from another and probably to
my detriment.
All I know is that he has spent some time under Victor DeThours.
It is unfortunate the Addie Hernandez can't match Joe size for size and there
are students in his school that can fill the bill size wise. But, Addie has
earned her stripes. I missed a seminar of his the other month (broke, for
now).and was told by one of my classmates who attended, that this seminar was
held on top of a high ridge on one side of a valley about 1/2 mile across.
Addie was bieng tested (for what I don't know) and was requested to run down
the ridge, across the valley, up the other side then do 1,000 straight blasts
on a dummy that was hung there and then run back. Temperature was close to 95
degrees, dry & dusty. Woman, Man, Machine who knows? I'm impressed.
Maybe some day, Addie will get to slam Joe around! Go get him Addie!
Chris.
David Williams
And an ad for his slam set tape:
http://www.kifight.com/prod01.htm
Additionally he has a demo of his Wooden Dummy form.
http://www.kifight.com/mook_jong_demo_12800.mpeg
There are also demos of his Silat and Kenpo, etc.
Regards,
David Williams
"CArena7028" <caren...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000910182523...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
David Williams
She had to run up and down Lone Pine Hill.
"CArena7028" <caren...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000910215709...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Chas
> I saw the video recently. Also got the new Paladin catalogue where he's on the
> cover. In his intro, he states that he was a Tongkat black belt and was given the
> "thumbs up" to study the parent art.
I'll tell you a secret.
About the major change from Tongkat to Serak is 15 degrees. There are
some other things obviously.
A second level of 'blackbelt' in Tongkat is not sufficient to teach it.
It is sufficient to instruct under the direct leadership of an advanced
leader. It is a point at which someone would declare to learn to be a
teacher/practice leader. We consider that the 'line' for practitioner is
different from the line for a teacher. All teachers are practitioners,
not all practitioners become teachers- it's a separate study.
> Since "then" he's received his Yang style Tai
> Chi and his Doce Pares certs.
So, that's Serak, Yang Tai Chi and Doce Pares wrapped up in less than
ten years- wonder what the other three are?
> Never came out and said whether he's certified to
> teach (ie, should "know" that which he is teaching) Serak.
What's on the floor shows.
> The cert on the video
> refers to Tongkat Serak. From the catalogue the bio says that he is certified to
> teach both. I wonder....
I don't know what his certification is in- I can see what he does- there
is no mistake about it. I'll explain my reasons to anyone who knows the
difference- but I'm not going to get a question from anybody that knows
the difference, cause the difference is obvious.
I guess I sound dogmatic on this, but it's as if someone talked about an
aikido tape and came out wearing boxing gloves when the lights came on.
It's something, that's obvious; it's just not Serak.
> His intro states that Pak Serak created the system to address his own unique
> attributes but never really goes on to develop what unique qualities the system
> contained (vis-a-vis the club foot/one arm attributes) and would have to offer the
> modern martial artist. Left me wondering what those unique qualities are, and
> whether Joe understands them or is even aware of them. I guess if he is aware of
> them, he immediately dismisses them as dead and useless.
Ok- ya got me. *That's* the part that really got me going. Joe calls
Bapak Burung Serak a 'little cripple'- it's a theme in the first tape.
He talks disparagingly about a guy that studied 'about nine arts' and
felt 'proficient in a few of them'; dude. He studied six arts and feels
proficient in all of them. He compares the concepts of Pak Serak as
likened to putting arms on a Snake- a Snake has a particular imagery
that is unfortunate when applied to the Founder of the Art- but that's
just an incredibly unfortunate faux pas fucking gaffe royale.
He doesn't understand the unique viewpoint of a man with that particular
birth 'defect'. Pak Serak wasn't 'handicapped' by an injury or a disease
or whatever- he had a short arm and a club foot- but that just changed
his geometry. That understanding of the geometry of the floor and the
opponent and the space and the angulation of incidence to the body of
the opponent is unique in martial arts- unless you know of another man
configured in such a way that was a martial champion and Founder of an
art that has many tjabang and perguguran (branches and study groups).
The 'nine arts'; Pak Serak studied four Indonesian arts, three Chinese
arts and two Indian arts. It is said that he felt *combat* proficiency
in three of them. Even as an apocryphal story, one can surmise that this
man had an exposure to three major cultures' martial arts and some
sub-divisions of those. The 'three' martial arts that he felt 'combat
proficiency' in might have been one of each culture- that is to say a
combat proficiency using any of three distinct strategic concepts.
Pak Serak was called 'Burung', a name for a wise man; he was a valued
bodyguard in a time when such were needed badly. He was not a 'little
cripple', he was a noted warrior in his youth and a counselor and
teacher in his age.
> Paladin seems content to blow a lot of smoke about the authentic Serak content in
> this video, and in credentialing Joe as certified in the art of Serak. Maybe they
> see dollar signs based on the sales of the Steve Gartin and Stevan Plinck tapes.
> Must make for great marketing, but at $90 bucks a pop, for those looking to find real
> info on the art, I have to agree, it's a rip. It's almost an "anti" Serak tape.
I remember Joe Simonet from some good time ago- we've got some seminar
tape in which he was in attendance; a remarkable looking man, so I
remembered him. One can remark in watching him that he comes out of a
Kempo background, I would think so anyway. I find his exposition of
Serak on a par with Bob Orlando's exposition of Kuntao Silat.
Look at what Steve Plinck does- and I guarantee you he is the real deal-
and then look at Joe's body carriage, emphasis on what applications, the
thrust of the abstract principle involved- timing, positioning,
distancing, playing the angles.
On top of that, I see a small group of cross credentialing cronies at
work there. Paladin has seen money to be made on silat in general and
Serak in particular- remember that the same guys were pushing weapons
when weapons was cool, JKD stuff, FMA stuff, it just changes with what's
popular at the time.
They have gone to third generation students rather than approach the
real deal- they want to see some Kuntao Silat? The guy that invented it
lives 15 miles from them. They want Serak? The guy that is the Senior
Lineage Presenter in the US is available to them. They want to see the
'Fighting in the Serak Form'? They've got a guy that breaks things and
fucks people up if the thought crosses his mind. That's not even to
speak of the first generation students, the second generation students-
of which there are about eight or ten left. They've got to bring up
these Kempo looking shortimers and make people think that's what we do-
it isn't.
> Chas, I also didn't get his presentation of the platforms. Did that resemble
> anything you are familiar with?
Nothing about his platform was in any way comparable to my understanding
of it. That particular platform diagram was not 'correct' in a couple of
basic geometric ways- a thing that changes the entire mechanism.
You have to understand that the Tongkat platform is *significantly*
different from the Serak platform- changes 'everything'. That isn't to
say that he was using the Tongkat platform either; the geometry changes
everything.
The keys to Pak Serak's unique understanding was that his 'rear' ankle
was fused, but it didn't hurt or anything, that's just the way it was.
His one arm was short to the elbow, but that just changes the distance
at which a very strong blow can be dealt. He learned to use his
shoulders in a unique way, he learned to use his waist in a unique way,
he was forced into a particular kind of footwork because of his
configuration and he worked out a use of the floor pattern to incidence
his opponent at an odd angle that made positive use of his physicality.
That's just some of it- there are subtleties and inferences and other
attributes- but that'll give you an idea of why the geometry is so
important.
His student, Mas Djoet, was the one who 'codified' Pak Serak's
understanding into a usage by a bisymmetrical practitioner. Again, it is
a unique use of physicality and a unique geometry.
Nothing about the art 'died'- how the hell did *Joe* learn it if it
'died'?
This is not some dead art; some blind adherence to tradition that
precludes practicality and utility- this is not some transparent
simplicity that is easily improved upon by a casual exposure to a
different art.
And these tapes are not any standard by which to judge anything about
Serak- they're not much to judge about Tongkat- A big strong man can win
a lot of fights based on that alone. A big strong man that gives a bit
of attention to basic skills is more dangerous yet. A big strong man
with the discipline and tenacity to study six arts to full proficiency
is a model for us all.
That doesn't have anything to do with his understanding of the most
basic concepts of a unique movement style- there are enough tapes
floating around for anyone to look at any of the three de Thouars
brothers and see how Joe's movement is distinctly and incomparably
different. Compare his movement to Pak Herman Suwanda or to Guru Jim
Ingram, look at Rudy ter Lindens' videos and his students, compare him
to Andre Knustgraichen or to Steve Plinck or Steve Gartin.
Then go look at Kempo.
Chas
> Hello Chas.
Hey Chris-
good wishes to you-
> No problem with his art bieng Serak or not. To be honest. As for me, not bieng
> a true Selat Player. I can't tell one Silat style from another and probably to
> my detriment.
See, that's my *only* problem with it. It could have been 'Silat
Concepts' and I wouldn't question what he's doing. Silat is a big word.
When he says it's derived from Serak and that He's going to 'find' some
fighting in the form for us, that's a whole nother story.
I'd like to see some Serak, please.
And I'd like to see how that practice is applied in fights, please.
or call the tape something else.
> All I know is that he has spent some time under Victor DeThours.
Yes- and with Victors most reputable senior student; Bob Van Natta.
But, not doing Serak.
And coming in as an accredited practitioner of at least two other arts
if my math is holding together for me, I remember that he already knew
an awfully lot of stuff about other ways to do things.
The word 'Tongkat' doesn't just mean 'stick'. It is a very special sort
of stick; a laminated double end tapered *burden bearing* stick. There
are things in the set that remember the first movements of the stick; to
dump one load and make the other load add impetus to the delivery of the
horizontal blow.
The 'Tongkat' silat then is the 'carrier' of the movements of Serak,
just as Bukti Negara is the 'evidence' of the 'continent' which is
Serak. In a certain way, the two derivative arts are for 'self defense'
and the Serak is for dire war between martial artists of skill and
preparation.
Joe didn't do Serak.
Geez, look at Steve Plinck with 20+ years of instruction- a professional
warrior, a prime example of what you get from great instruction, hard
work and a long long time. No outside influences (particularly), always
done silat. Look at what he does with his body while he's talking about
another art <g>
Then look at what Joe's body says while he talks.
It's not Serak- not even somewhatSerak.
> It is unfortunate the Addie Hernandez can't match Joe size for size and there
> are students in his school that can fill the bill size wise. But, Addie has
> earned her stripes. .... Woman, Man, Machine who knows? I'm impressed.
She could be a star. She has great movement, the camera likes her; two
thumbs up for Addy.
The juxtaposition of the 5'2" female attacker and the 6' bodybuilder
'defender' was amusing. She is all business, he had to really play down.
Besides, if he is 'finding the fight in the Serak form', the least he
could have done is get an actor that registers visually as a credible
opponent- Ms. Hernandez gives a very strong performance as an attacker,
but she's too light to fight and too thin to win, ya'know? <g>
Chas
> Well I spent some time searching and found Master Simonet's website.
> http://www.kifight.com
I *knew* he was a Kempo guy!
6th Degree Black Belt from Tracey's Kenpo- I think that Orlando is
Tracey's Kenpo too; I'm not sure.
Kempo is different from what we do-
Patrick and Jennifer Younts
>If you want to learn Serak, the best beginning video presently available
>to the public is still Steve Plinck's vid, also from Paladin.
>This just doesn't cut it on any level, by any standard, in any manner.
>The photography and production was nice.
>
>Chas Clements, Guru
>Silat Kilap Betawi Muda de Thouars
>Aurora, Colorado
Chas, do you know where Steve Plinck lives by any chance. A junior student
in my school says his roommate studies with him. Says he teaches out of his
garage in Vancouver, WA when he's not flying back to some big school in
Switzerland? Sweden? (some country with an S) Is he right? Or is he studying
with a Steve Plinck student? I wouldn't mind checking him out if he really
is here.
Chas
> Chas, do you know where Steve Plinck lives by any chance.
Sorry, I don't have any particulars on him.
he is _very well thought of_; I don't know if he is accepting students.
Mike Casto
"Patrick and Jennifer Younts" <kngf...@portland.quik.com> wrote:
> Chas, do you know where Steve Plinck lives by any chance. A junior
student
> in my school says his roommate studies with him. Says he teaches out
of his
> garage in Vancouver, WA when he's not flying back to some big school
in
> Switzerland? Sweden? (some country with an S) Is he right? Or is he
studying
> with a Steve Plinck student? I wouldn't mind checking him out if he
really
> is here.
I know that Guru Plinck lives & teaches in WA ... though I'm not sure of
his specific location.
I met and trained with him some at the Kun Tao Silat de Thouars Family
Gathering this past August. He's an incredible martial artist and a very
cool guy. Very humble and down to earth. If I were you, I would go
visit with your student's roommate. In a worst-case scenario, it'll only
cost you an afternoon, right :-)
I'm guessing, though, that that is where he is.
Selamat, Mike
--
Mike Casto Lakan Isa / Guru Satu
Asian Fighting Arts Filipino Kali / Indonesian Pentjak Silat
Dayton, Ohio Phone: (937) 293-5520
URL: http://www.guild-hall.com/afa/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chas
> I met and trained with him some at the Kun Tao Silat de Thouars Family
> Gathering this past August. He's an incredible martial artist and a very
> cool guy. Very humble and down to earth.
I only passed through the Family Gathering this year <g> and missed
seeing him-
Anyone who is considering applying to him for instruction would do well
to get his video from Paladin.
It seems to me now that there are a number of good 'preparatory'
instructors in the Portland area. You could spend some good time with
Todd and Teal Elner, Kurt Goodwin has a good understanding, Brandt
Bollars is active there. Any of them would be a good surrogate and
beginning if Maha Guru Plinck is not immediately available.
Steve Perry
> In article <S_jv5.2926$1I4.1...@newsfeed.intelenet.net>,
> "Patrick and Jennifer Younts" <kngf...@portland.quik.com> wrote:
>
> > Chas, do you know where Steve Plinck lives by any chance. A junior
> student
> > in my school says his roommate studies with him. Says he teaches out
> of his
> > garage in Vancouver, WA when he's not flying back to some big school
> in
> > Switzerland? Sweden? (some country with an S) Is he right? Or is he
> studying
> > with a Steve Plinck student? I wouldn't mind checking him out if he
> really
> > is here.
Actually, Maha Guru Plinck teaches in one of his student's garages -- it's
a three-car one, nice and big -- in Vancouver, WA. Beginning classes are
Thursdays, intermediate/advanced class is on Tuesdays, both at 6:30 p.m.
He does a few seminars every year, and one of them is in Sweden/Finland,
for an ongoing group of students in both countries.
Maha Guru is open to new students, and he doesn't mind folks coming by to
watch a session, but it's considered polite to check first. Generally it is
best to come as a guest of somebody already training who has cleared it
with Steve. Or to contact him directly first and ask if he minds. He
doesn't advertise, and pretty much everybody who has joined classes in the
last couple of years has been referred by a current student.
Most of the students came from other arts, and several are black
belt/instructor level.
Unfortunately, he is changing his email address and the new carrier has
messed it up, so until that is fixed, he won't be getting email. Should be
fixed in the next week or so, but he is going to Finland at the end of the
month for a couple of weeks.
Who is the roommate who trains there? I'm pretty sure I know him.
Steve
Chas
Steve-
Have you heard any other opinions on the Simonet/Serak video?
I'm a little surprised that the *real* Serak people haven't commented.
They certainly didn't seem to be reticent to discuss Plinck, Victor or
me- wonder where they are now?
Have you seen the vid? Joe's up there in your neck of the woods, I would
think there would be a lot of promo copies floating around.
Taojen1
<<Have you heard any other opinions on the Simonet/Serak video?
I'm a little surprised that the *real* Serak people haven't commented.
They certainly didn't seem to be reticent to discuss Plinck, Victor or
me- wonder where they are now?
Chas,
Although I'm fairly certain I know which camp you refer to, Pak Vic has made
his position quite clear on his own Serak Board on Delphi. I can't and won't
speak for him but it's a public board. Check it out if you will. Further I
would encourage anyone with an interest in legitimate Serak to check out Pak's
site at www.serak.com.
Buddy
Buddy
Chas
Hey Buddy **
> Although I'm fairly certain I know which camp you refer to,
Uh, that would be The Governing Board of High Panjandrums and Stuff;
Danny Huybrecht, Watanabe, etc.
I figured that with them being of such strong opinions about actual
Serak practitioners, that we would have heard something from them about
this crock of crap.
> Pak Vic has made
> his position quite clear on his own Serak Board on Delphi. I can't and won't
> speak for him but it's a public board. Check it out if you will.
Yes- I saw that.
I felt he was quite restrained in his public opinion <g>
> Further I
> would encourage anyone with an interest in legitimate Serak to check out Pak's
> site at www.serak.com.
Absolutely.
Victor is my chan man ran and my longest teacher- we remain good friends
of great affection and he has my deepest respect and admiration; spoke
to him today.
If one would see actual Serak instead of the Simonet/Paladin junk, Maha
Guru Victor is the Senior Lineage proponent active today as the Pendekar
winds down his career.
Chas
> Yes- I saw that.
> I felt he was quite restrained in his public opinion <g>
oops- belay that-
Hadn't read the latest post-
So, Joe's been kicked out of the tjabang and totally repudiated; barred
from ever rejoining and lost his lineage over this, hunh?
Tough.
He shoulda checked with Kelli Worden about using a name he wasn't
entitled to- especially the 'de Thouars' one. They get really grumpy
about it.
Here's a little Serak with a couple of krisses-
http://members.xoom.com/americankts/vic.mpg
Steve Perry
> Chas wrote:
> > Yes- I saw that.
> > I felt he was quite restrained in his public opinion <g>
>
> oops- belay that-
> Hadn't read the latest post-
> So, Joe's been kicked out of the tjabang and totally repudiated; barred
> from ever rejoining and lost his lineage over this, hunh?
> Tough.
> He shoulda checked with Kelli Worden about using a name he wasn't
> entitled to- especially the 'de Thouars' one. They get really grumpy
> about it.
> Here's a little Serak with a couple of krisses-
> http://members.xoom.com/americankts/vic.mpg
Chas --
I haven't seen the vid. I did download the silat demo from the Simonet
site, and while the form he does looks sort of familiar, his stance isn't
the one we learn. Maybe that's just a stylistic difference, you can't tell
much from the demo, but I don't think I'm gonna spend $90 for a Serak tape
when I'm training under one of the experts everybody in the art recognizes
as such. Shoot, I could get a few private lessons one-on-one for that much.
Coals to Newcastle and all that . . .
Steve
Chas
> I haven't seen the vid. I did download the silat demo from the Simonet
> site, and while the form he does looks sort of familiar, his stance isn't
> the one we learn.
In the Paladin/Simonet video, he does all of the first six djurus wrong-
not just a little wrong, *really* wrong. It's one thing to present silat
'concepts', it's another to say 'this is Pukulan Pentjak Silat Serak de
Thouars' and I'm going to help you 'find the fighting aspect of the
form'. You can float by on the former, but you better be hitting on full
for the latter.
He misses the entire *reason* for the forms- he doesn't even *suspect*
much about Serak, much less *know* it. He then ridicules what he doesn't
know anything about.
His stance isn't the one that *anyone* learns that isn't doing Kempo (or
something) at the time. He even had to have Addy do a running jump at
the siloh (and not very well) and then he didn't even know what to do
with it- duh.
> Maybe that's just a stylistic difference,
no, if it was just a stylistic difference, there wouldn't be a problem.
I've said many times that the forms will accommodate a breadth of
expression. This is far past that. This is misleading to a beginner,
affrontive to an actual practitioner- it just has nothing to do with
Serak.
And that doesn't even begin to speak of the slurs, arrogance and lack of
hormat/respect.
I would say that he shoulda stuck with Kempo, but he did.
> you can't tell
> much from the demo, but I don't think I'm gonna spend $90 for a Serak tape
> when I'm training under one of the experts everybody in the art recognizes
> as such. Shoot, I could get a few private lessons one-on-one for that much.
Truely- I just thought you guys might have a copy floating around
suitable for hooting and jeering at- if nothing else he can serve as a
bad example.
I'm surprised that Paladin did this at all. They had an opportunity to
work with someone who actually knows the art intimately (other than
Steve- I would have welcomed a tape from him on the fighting aspects of
the form- he actually has them) from 1981 (the first time that Victor
was presented to them)- they would rather clout up a name amongst their
little coterie of sycophants than to present the real deal.
Last time it was Kelli Worden co-opting Willem's name and a supposed
credential on his tape- he was disabused of that very quickly. Willem
actually got rid of an honor certificate from those guys as being
'unworthy of keeping'- never seen him do that before.
This is another of the little gang- I'm surprised that Simonet didn't
wear one of the famous 'NorthWest Mafia' t-shirts.
Of course, I *am* waiting for his Yang Tai Chi exploration; his Doce
Pares thoughts, his help with some Escrima and most certainly; "Finding
the Fighting Stuff in Wing Chun" <G>
tim
: Here's a little Serak with a couple of krisses-
: http://members.xoom.com/americankts/vic.mpg
thanks for the mpeg, chas. is that a clip from one of the videos you
sell?
also, i checked out simonet's(sp?) silat demo from his website. now,
keep in mind that i've never seen dethouars serak- what's with the lean?
i had read that serak guys have an unusual stance, but he looks like he
could pitch over if there was a light breeze at his back. and what's
with the little skipping motion at the end? is that one of the djurus
(well, supposed to be one, anyway), or something different? thanks.
tim
Chas
> Chas <gryp...@home.com> wrote:
> : Here's a little Serak with a couple of krisses-
> : http://members.xoom.com/americankts/vic.mpg
> thanks for the mpeg, chas. is that a clip from one of the videos you
> sell?
It's one of the good clips of Victor and it has been used in our videos,
yes. He did it in a park by my house- the krisses are mine. We were
doing stills for magazine publication and he consented to do the set for
us as a gift.
> also, i checked out simonet's(sp?) silat demo from his website. now,
> keep in mind that i've never seen dethouars serak- what's with the lean?
> i had read that serak guys have an unusual stance, but he looks like he
> could pitch over if there was a light breeze at his back.
We do lean forward- we are expecting to be in very close contact with
the opponent- in some ways, he has to carry us (an oversimplification of
the principle). The forward head lean is part of the set up for the head
butt- you can see that if your head was touching his, you would be at
very close proximity.
We wouldn't worry about a breeze from the back <g>
In Serak there are no backwards steps- even an adjusting step is done to
the side. We bore straight in, there is no breaking of contact and the
fight is over pretty quickly one way or the other. Even evasions are
done while in contact-
> and what's
> with the little skipping motion at the end? is that one of the djurus
> (well, supposed to be one, anyway), or something different? thanks.
The foot exchange at the end is called a 'kuda'. Kuda is 'horse' and
many of our movements come from it; exchanges like that, low kicks- our
principle is 'every kick a step and every step a kick'. The bodies would
be in contact when the exchange is done- all of the djuru that you saw
would be done in contact with the opponent, not from a distance. Most of
the punches are done with the forearm, the fist is clenched to keep the
opponent from attacking the fingers. Many of the strikes are to get the
hand close enough to the opponent to grasp him- lots of the things that
you might interpret as strikes are actually throws, lots of the broader
movements are throws, pulls, pushes, twists and turns and so on.
Most practitioners work the djurus much lower than that example. The
body position looks almost ape-like; head forward, spine at the natural
curve, shoulders rounded, elbows close, lots of waist and hip torquing
and flexing, knees bent-
Happy to answer questions if I can-
Martialis
wrote:
>In article <8plfaj$icv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mike Casto <si...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <S_jv5.2926$1I4.1...@newsfeed.intelenet.net>,
>> "Patrick and Jennifer Younts" <kngf...@portland.quik.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Chas, do you know where Steve Plinck lives by any chance. A junior
>> student
>> > in my school says his roommate studies with him. Says he teaches out
>> of his
>> > garage in Vancouver, WA when he's not flying back to some big school
>> in
>> > Switzerland? Sweden? (some country with an S) Is he right? Or is he
>> studying
>> > with a Steve Plinck student? I wouldn't mind checking him out if he
>> really
>> > is here.
>
>Actually, Maha Guru Plinck teaches in one of his student's garages -- it's
>a three-car one, nice and big -- in Vancouver, WA. Beginning classes are
>Thursdays, intermediate/advanced class is on Tuesdays, both at 6:30 p.m.
>
>He does a few seminars every year, and one of them is in Sweden/Finland,
>for an ongoing group of students in both countries.
>
>Maha Guru is open to new students, and he doesn't mind folks coming by to
>watch a session, but it's considered polite to check first. Generally it is
>best to come as a guest of somebody already training who has cleared it
>with Steve. Or to contact him directly first and ask if he minds. He
>doesn't advertise, and pretty much everybody who has joined classes in the
>last couple of years has been referred by a current student.
>
>Most of the students came from other arts, and several are black
>belt/instructor level.
>
>Unfortunately, he is changing his email address and the new carrier has
>messed it up, so until that is fixed, he won't be getting email. Should be
>fixed in the next week or so, but he is going to Finland at the end of the
>month for a couple of weeks.
>
Do you know where exactly he is going to hold that seminar in Finland?
And do you happen to know the exact dates when the seminar is to be
held?
I live in Finland and I'd be very glad to see one his seminars.
>Who is the roommate who trains there? I'm pretty sure I know him.
>
>Steve
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