question about Tai Chi (as a defensive art)
a
tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art and
am currently unfit. However, I intend to start exercising and wondered whether
tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in thinking
that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could any
Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager r.m-a
posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-) .. ). If I
learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits it
might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
decides to fight me.
(Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt to
come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight, but
I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order. I will
not back away if they take offence (unless I think they are well out of my
league). If I am physically attacked I will try to incapacitate the f**k out
of them as quickly as possible to prevent them from harming me. So far I have
been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
environments, have only been in 3, (or possibly 2, depending on how you look
at it....) brawls in my entire life.)
Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I know
that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
This seems to me to be the ideal way to have handled the sort of situation I
have described above a couple of hundred years ago, and if I was around then,
I would probably have been learning tai chi for years already. However, in
today's day and age, with firearms becoming more efficient (ie preloaded vs
old muskets and preparing cartridges), smaller (ie tiny handguns nowadays,
easily concealed), and ubiquitous (I would think that there are more handguns
in the private population of the world today then ever before in history), is
Tai Chi still as effective for defence today? Brushing aside an assailant who
then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
Further to this, the scenario I've just described is assuming an expert Tai
Chi practisioner. The next question concerns Tai Chi students. As I know from
my experience, if a fight develops, and you don't take out the enemy, they
will continue to try to take out you. I assume that if you used Tai Chi to
block them and 'make them look stupid', they would probably just get more
enraged and more determined to take you out. Now, if you're a student in this
scenario, you're not going to be as good as a pro, you *will* make a mistake,
and it seems to me chances are, you're going to get beaten.
So, surely it seems to me, that a Tai Chi student, assuming he/she cannot make
a retreat/escape a fight (best move), ought to be using more offensive options
than defensive blocks. Does tai chi include offensive moves? what is the Tai
Chi philosophy for defence if you cannot escape and your enemy is dangerous?
And, solely for defensive purposes (versus mental and physical health), if
there is no offensive Tai Chi strategy, is Tai Chi still relevant as a form of
defense today?
Ooh.... ended up sounding a bit controversial.... not too many flames please -
I did write it with pertinent questions in mind....
Oliver Richman
news:3e6bb297$0$59852$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
> I have just been admitted on a 2 yr student course, and notice the uni has
a
> tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art
and
> am currently unfit. However, I intend to start exercising and wondered
whether
> tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
>
> Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in
thinking
> that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
Yeah, sure. And why not? Approach it with a meditation in motion mindset.
> Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could
any
> Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager
r.m-a
> posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-) .. ). If
I
> learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits
it
> might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> decides to fight me.
Now that's the problem. What you are going to learn in your university club
or anywhere close to there simply isn't going to work on the street. I'll
explain it that way this time. It just won't work on the street. You need
the right foundation, foundation meaning physical strengths and abilities.
Then you need to learn how to use that foundation from the ground up. Tai
chi is not a set of moves used for self defense. I wish people would realise
how truly revolutionary it is. "Tai Chi is a process you have to go through"
(CXW or ZTC I think).
Oh yeah so you want to fight. Get your needle-o-meeters ready because you
have a whole world of freakin' haystacks to sort through. First you need to
agree on an ORDER OF FOCUS. Meaning you need to figure out where to START.
Pick the wrong spot or skip too much or leave too much out (accidentally or
otherwise) and it's nearly HOPELESS. I kid you not.
Second you need to WORK. And hard. Most people just don't have the time.
Third you need to preservere. It takes a long time of seeing *no results and
no improvement*. Realizations come in leaps and bounds. Often you can either
do something or know something, or not, and there is no in-between. Often
you will come accross people who will try to make you feel bad because your
focus is different or you don't know as much as them. Only remember this.
Tai Chi as a martial art CAN be taught, but for all intents and purposes you
will probably need to figure it out for yourself. Therefore the only
important knowledge that you should be interested in is discovering a
complete training methodology which will allow you to achieve all skills
mentioned as being part of Tai Chi. This is important. (this is related to
order of focus because you can't do everything at once).
> (Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt
to
> come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight,
but
> I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order. I
will
> not back away if they take offence (unless I think they are well out of my
> league). If I am physically attacked I will try to incapacitate the f**k
out
> of them as quickly as possible to prevent them from harming me. So far I
have
> been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
> environments, have only been in 3, (or possibly 2, depending on how you
look
> at it....) brawls in my entire life.)
You know what?
Try Aikido. They do a lot of partner work. In tai chi they don't let you do
partner work until you're of a higher level, and then you realize how
difficult it is to find anyone to do partner work at all.
American tai chi breeds the mentality that partner work isn't tai chi. Don't
pick that bad habit up and you'll be fine.
> Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I
know
> that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
> damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
> opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
>
> This seems to me to be the ideal way to have handled the sort of situation
I
> have described above a couple of hundred years ago, and if I was around
then,
> I would probably have been learning tai chi for years already. However, in
> today's day and age, with firearms becoming more efficient (ie preloaded
vs
> old muskets and preparing cartridges), smaller (ie tiny handguns
nowadays,
> easily concealed), and ubiquitous (I would think that there are more
handguns
> in the private population of the world today then ever before in history),
is
> Tai Chi still as effective for defence today? Brushing aside an assailant
who
> then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
Is anything? I mean heck - no art will stop a gun, except possibly tai chi
and aikido. But unless you're planning to be the next morihei ueshiba, don't
even bother.
If any art is useful at all, then all of them are, basically. Just don't try
any shit on the guy with a gun.
> [snip] surely it seems to me, that a Tai Chi student, assuming he/she
cannot make
> a retreat/escape a fight (best move), ought to be using more offensive
options
> than defensive blocks. Does tai chi include offensive moves? what is the
Tai
> Chi philosophy for defence if you cannot escape and your enemy is
dangerous?
You never block in tai chi. Repeat after me. You never block in tai chi.
Anyways.. just use your brain. If your opponent is better just stop the
fight. Run, do whatever. Your art enables you - it is not a list of rules of
combat, generally speaking.
> And, solely for defensive purposes (versus mental and physical health), if
> there is no offensive Tai Chi strategy, is Tai Chi still relevant as a
form of
> defense today?
Even aikido has an offensive form. Tai chi definately has an offensive form.
Do not be fooled by people doing slow movements in the park. Study.
Research. *find a way to make weird stuff make sense with other stuff*. Tai
chi is like a gun camoflaged in the mud. You can't see it and you don't know
where it is. People might tell you it doesen't exist but after staring and
searching you might see it and pick it up, and then you will be hard to
beat.
-frl
GreenDistantStar
"Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:vnRaa.77316$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Now that's the problem. What you are going to learn in your university
club
> or anywhere close to there simply isn't going to work on the street. I'll
> explain it that way this time. It just won't work on the street. You need
> the right foundation, foundation meaning physical strengths and abilities.
> Then you need to learn how to use that foundation from the ground up.
Agree. We may disagree however with the foundations.
Tai
> chi is not a set of moves used for self defense. I wish people would
realise
> how truly revolutionary it is. "Tai Chi is a process you have to go
through"
> (CXW or ZTC I think).
Then how will it be useful in a fight?
>
> Oh yeah so you want to fight. Get your needle-o-meeters ready because you
> have a whole world of freakin' haystacks to sort through.
This is a metaphor for what?
First you need to
> agree on an ORDER OF FOCUS. Meaning you need to figure out where to START.
????
> Pick the wrong spot
???
or skip too much
!!!???!!!
or leave too much out (accidentally or
> otherwise) and it's nearly HOPELESS. I kid you not.
What is?
>
> Second you need to WORK. And hard. Most people just don't have the time.
How much time? 3-4 nights a week for 3-6 months - 2 hrs per session? That's
all you need.
>
> Third you need to preservere.
You mean persevere? Ok then....
It takes a long time of seeing *no results and
> no improvement*.
Not at all. An effective self defense framework can be constructed very
swiftly.
See it all the time. Have for a long time. I'd say whatever you are
discussing here Oliver
is less effective than it should be.
Realizations come in leaps and bounds.
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
Often you can either
> do something or know something, or not, and there is no in-between.
And just as often you learn something and then spend time perfecting it.
Often
> you will come accross people who will try to make you feel bad because
your
> focus is different or you don't know as much as them.
If you are coming across these people often, you may need to consider either
changing your neighbourhood or your attitude. The problem will be in one
or the other or both.
Only remember this.
> Tai Chi as a martial art CAN be taught, but for all intents and purposes
you
> will probably need to figure it out for yourself.
Why? Imagine saying that to someone about Judo.
Therefore the only
> important knowledge that you should be interested in is discovering a
> complete training methodology which will allow you to achieve all skills
> mentioned as being part of Tai Chi. This is important. (this is related to
> order of focus because you can't do everything at once).
So figuring it out all by ourselves means we have to begin ".....discovering
a
complete training methodology ....."
This is very confusing and difficult. I think I'll give up now.
clipped
> Do not be fooled by people doing slow movements in the park.
Like the millions in Taiwan and China, whose understanding of Tai Chi
exceeds yours
but such a magnitude that the comparison would be cruelly unfair?
Yes, don't be fooled by these people.
Study.
> Research.
Depends what you study and research.
*find a way to make weird stuff make sense with other stuff*.
This is not sound. Mostly, 'weird stuff' is incompatible with known 'other'
stuff.
Attributing to Chi sensations that are already well and comprehensively
understood
is an example of an attempt to 'find a way' .
Tai
> chi is like a gun camoflaged in the mud. You can't see it and you don't
know
> where it is. People might tell you it doesen't exist but after staring and
> searching you might see it and pick it up, and then you will be hard to
> beat.
Perhaps it is. It's just a shame that there is so little evidence.
Peter
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BillMahoney68
>
>I have just been admitted on a 2 yr student course, and notice the uni has a
>tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art and
>
>am currently unfit.
You're perfect for taichi.
>However, I intend to start exercising and wondered whether
>tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
Swimming and bike riding are MUCH better.
To get fit you wanna get your heartrate up and hold it there for awhile.
You want real cardio excersize.Not taichi.
>Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in thinking
>that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
Beer is better.
>Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could any
>
>Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager r.m-a
>posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-
What about a guy that never even read about it in a book?
> I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
>decides to fight me.
Try wrestling, boxing, Judo, Brazilian Jiujitsu or Thaiboxing.
Those are what work.
>(Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt to
>come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight, but
>
>I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order.
Easy partner,
now slowly put down the glock.
> So far I have
>been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
>environments,
Let me guess....word-a-day calender?
> I know
>that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort
...cant ....stifle...laughter....
HAHAHAHA!
Sorry.
>t and minimum
>damage to the opponent
Well you got that part right.
> almost like brushing the attacks away using the
>opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
yeah.ok.
> is
>Tai Chi still as effective for defence today?
Yes.Just as effective as ever.
>Brushing aside an assailant who
>then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
"brushing" dont really win much even without the gunplay.But still, you are
correct.
Eric Neale
<snip> If I
> learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits it
> might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> decides to fight me.
>
> (Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt to
> come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight, but
> I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order. I will
> not back away if they take offence (unless I think they are well out of my
> league).
Forgive me but this sounds like you wish to engage others in pissing
contests. That is not self defense.
If I am physically attacked I will try to incapacitate the f**k out
> of them as quickly as possible to prevent them from harming me. So far I have
> been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
> environments, have only been in 3, (or possibly 2, depending on how you look
> at it....) brawls in my entire life.)
Doesn't Tai Chi take a long time to learn? Maybe you should study
something else too - like boxing. That way you can defend yourself
before you become the Tai Chi master.
> Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I know
> that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
> damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
> opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
>
> This seems to me to be the ideal way to have handled the sort of situation I
> have described above a couple of hundred years ago,
No, that is how you handle self defense when you can't dammage your
opponent due to political reasons. (e.g. Look out grandpa had gone
insane again and he is swinging that steak knife everywhere!)
. . .and if I was around then,
> I would probably have been learning tai chi for years already. However, in
> today's day and age, with firearms becoming more efficient (ie preloaded vs
> old muskets and preparing cartridges),
The books say that them old muskets had quite an effect on the Samurai
whe they first made it to the Japanese battlefield. I couldn't tell
you how much Tai Chi was practiced by the typical Boxer during the
rebelion but I think rifles were low tech then too. Guns have a
danger zone. If the guy is standing too close to you he is
vulnerable. If he is too far then he won't hit you unless he has
practiced. Take cover. If he tries to close the distance run in a
zig zag. The best way to stay alive is to spot the ambush before you
stumble into it.
. . . smaller (ie tiny handguns nowadays,
> easily concealed), and ubiquitous (I would think that there are more handguns
> in the private population of the world today then ever before in history), is
> Tai Chi still as effective for defence today? Brushing aside an assailant who
> then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
If you overpower someone you can always search him before you let him
go - if that is what you want to do. Either that or check your local
laws to see what kinds of weapons you can carry.
> Further to this, the scenario I've just described is assuming an expert Tai
> Chi practisioner. The next question concerns Tai Chi students. As I know from
> my experience, if a fight develops, and you don't take out the enemy, they
> will continue to try to take out you. I assume that if you used Tai Chi to
> block them and 'make them look stupid', they would probably just get more
> enraged and more determined to take you out.
Personaly I prefer to let them tire themselves out. Let the other guy
become enraged, dump his adrenalin and go bezerk. 60 seconds later he
will start to run out of steam unless he has worked cardio. My
stratagy has been to remain calm and survive with the minimum effort
so I can out last him. Of course I couldn't tell you if that works
for Tai Chi.
. . . Now, if you're a student in this
> scenario, you're not going to be as good as a pro, you *will* make a mistake,
> and it seems to me chances are, you're going to get beaten.
Who ever makes the worst mistake or the most mistakes will lose. It's
luck, game theory and training method. I don't know why you are so
stuck on Tai Chi. It may not be the best fit for your goals.
Regards,
-Eric
wallen
> that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
strenght will not come from bulk, nor will tai-chi trainning give you
bulk. it relies primarilly on techniques. this is the main reason many
practitioner cant use it for combat situation. but if you have
mastered the techniques, anatomy and control of forces(balance,
direction, redirection, position etc. the totality of which is the so
called chi) then you will be quite a force to contend with. but until
then, you have only your wits, so dont to get into a fight.
> is Tai Chi still as effective for defence today? Brushing aside an assailant > who then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
1/4 of a second. there is a big chance of disarming it. but then
again, this will require a lot of training. a fight is not a
choreographed dance. only training can give you the capacity to adapt
or sometimes read the situation. so again, you use your wits. try not
to mess with a gunman. you only fight when you have to. it does not
matter if you too have a gun. you only fight when you have to.
> Further to this, the scenario I've just described is assuming an expert Tai
> Chi practisioner. The next question concerns Tai Chi students. As I know from
> my experience, if a fight develops, and you don't take out the enemy, they
> will continue to try to take out you. I assume that if you used Tai Chi to
> block them and 'make them look stupid',
to make someone look stupid works only on learned men. they will back
out and plan for your demise. :) , does who are already stupid will
keep coming in hope that they will get you the next time around. tai
chi may be passive, but thats because you cannot use it effectively if
you havent mastered it yet. and by long years of 'proper' practice,
having been so passive all that time, you still tend to hold back.
this do not mean the technique is weak. it is the person who uses it.
should you be ruthless in your attack, tai chi is as effective(if not
more dangerous) as any.>
> And, solely for defensive purposes (versus mental and physical health), if
> there is no offensive Tai Chi strategy, is Tai Chi still relevant as a form
> of defense today?
the addage, how you practice is what fighter you will be comes into
play here. because many train it for health benefits, the offensive
part is almost forgotten. but its still there. hidden behind the
curtains of the slow dance. you need to see them as they really are
and practice them the way theyre meant to be. then the dance will be a
dance of death.
wallen
GreenDistantStar
"Eric Neale" <calvin...@ocsnet.net> wrote in message
news:fca39b3b.03030...@posting.google.com...
clipped and mostly agreed with...
> Personaly I prefer to let them tire themselves out. Let the other guy
> become enraged, dump his adrenalin and go bezerk. 60 seconds later he
> will start to run out of steam unless he has worked cardio. My
> stratagy has been to remain calm and survive with the minimum effort
> so I can out last him.
That's a very good strategy.
Of course I couldn't tell you if that works
> for Tai Chi.
Well tai chi isn't going to improve your cardio but it helps your balance
and base.
There's nothing in any tai chi form I've seen that involves closing
distance, clinching etc.
that would assist in maintaining control during the adrenaline dump.
I'm always available to be convinced otherwise.
Oliver Richman
news:n1Saa.39
> Agree. We may disagree however with the foundations.
Sure, we probably do.
> > Oh yeah so you want to fight. Get your needle-o-meeters ready because
you
> > have a whole world of freakin' haystacks to sort through.
>
> This is a metaphor for what?
the fact that most people will plateau, and never improve.
That's what I am talking about in the original post - how to avoid becoming
a "permanent green belt".
-frl
Dan Bummer
> Now that's the problem. What you are going to learn in your university club
> or anywhere close to there simply isn't going to work on the street.
The first TC I learned was the so-called 'cool' health-meditative approach
rather than combat,it was in a Chinese and Japanese philosophy class. I then
went on to learn a different TC soon after at the beckoning of a friend. Am I
glad I did. I dropped totally the TC I had learned in that class, and I only
pulled a measly "C" anyway. That professor had also taught another class
called Taoism and Tai Chi, and my friend called his TC "bullshit." I realized
why.
> I'll
> explain it that way this time. It just won't work on the street. You need
> the right foundation, foundation meaning physical strengths and abilities.
> Then you need to learn how to use that foundation from the ground up. Tai
> chi is not a set of moves used for self defense. I wish people would realise
> how truly revolutionary it is. "Tai Chi is a process you have to go through"
> (CXW or ZTC I think).
I recall using TC moves while engaging in free style on two occasions,
once with a kickboxer friend who I knew from a made-up kung fu class
(he had a black belt in shotokan and studied other things like goshinjutsu),
he came at me with a high kick which I went underneath and caught him
with a punch. He was a bit angered and told him "Take it easy." It wasn't
a hard punch either but a TC punch. Another time I was free sparring with
one of my Hung Gar sifu's students who came from a TKD background; I
caught him with a low kick right to his balls, it wasn't hard but he
admitted he felt it later. Guess it was a TC kick. I didn't plan on
utilizing either of those moves, they just "happened." What you could say
is TC is a process you have to experience.
> Oh yeah so you want to fight. Get your needle-o-meeters ready because you
> have a whole world of freakin' haystacks to sort through. First you need to
> agree on an ORDER OF FOCUS. Meaning you need to figure out where to START.
> Pick the wrong spot or skip too much or leave too much out (accidentally or
> otherwise) and it's nearly HOPELESS. I kid you not.
> Most people just don't have the time.
How very true. They want instantanteous results.
> Third you need to preservere. It takes a long time of seeing *no results and
> no improvement*. Realizations come in leaps and bounds. Often you can either
> do something or know something, or not, and there is no in-between. Often
> you will come accross people who will try to make you feel bad because your
> focus is different or you don't know as much as them. Only remember this.
> Tai Chi as a martial art CAN be taught, but for all intents and purposes you
> will probably need to figure it out for yourself. Therefore the only
> important knowledge that you should be interested in is discovering a
> complete training methodology which will allow you to achieve all skills
> mentioned as being part of Tai Chi. This is important. (this is related to
> order of focus because you can't do everything at once).
> Try Aikido. They do a lot of partner work. In tai chi they don't let you do
> partner work until you're of a higher level, and then you realize how
> difficult it is to find anyone to do partner work at all.
It would be better if partner work were started up that much sooner. I
recall learning push hands not much later if learning the set. Of course
the tai chi class was only once a week and the class was *very* small...
of course, it does take time to get comfortable because of natural tension
which can make it difficult. On the other hand, some people can also be
"limp noodles," maybe too relaxed?
> American tai chi breeds the mentality that partner work isn't tai chi. Don't
> pick that bad habit up and you'll be fine.
The proper Tai Chi would be applied as close to the Kung Fu approach as
possible and yet be somewhat different from it too, which is why it may
not be so easy.
> Is anything? I mean heck - no art will stop a gun, except possibly tai chi
> and aikido. But unless you're planning to be the next morihei ueshiba, don't
> even bother.
Like what you said. :-)
> If any art is useful at all, then all of them are, basically. Just don't try
> any shit on the guy with a gun.
A guy with a knife *could* be the next one to stay away from.
> You never block in tai chi. Repeat after me. You never block in tai chi.
Right. There are times when blocks are useless anyway.
> Anyways.. just use your brain. If your opponent is better just stop the
> fight. Run, do whatever. Your art enables you - it is not a list of rules of
> combat, generally speaking.
> Even aikido has an offensive form. Tai chi definately has an offensive form.
> Do not be fooled by people doing slow movements in the park. Study.
> Research. *find a way to make weird stuff make sense with other stuff*. Tai
> chi is like a gun camoflaged in the mud. You can't see it and you don't know
> where it is. People might tell you it doesen't exist but after staring and
> searching you might see it and pick it up, and then you will be hard to
> beat.
Well said. Like Hung Gar has *defensive* moves as well as offensive--!
Edward P Ither
>
>Like the millions in Taiwan and China, whose understanding of Tai Chi
>exceeds yours
>but such a magnitude that the comparison would be cruelly unfair?
>
>Yes, don't be fooled by these people.
>
>Study.
>> Research.
eek.. maybe a little harsh..
dont get me wrong.. bullis is a self confessed pedo...
Let's try restating that..
Do not be fooled by people doing slow movements in the park. Tai Chi
slow forms are the exercises which train the body and the mind, but it
is not the limit to the art. Once these forms have been mastered they
become natural responses and will become a powerful addition to a
combat form or enable you to come up with new styles of fighting using
the familiar motions.
...fnordish
Edward P Ither
da...@emailaccount.com (Dan Bummer) was saying something about:
>> Most people just don't have the time.
>
> How very true. They want instantanteous results.
"'How do you feel.'
'I know Kung-Fu.'
'Show me.'"
...fnordish
Kevin Lowe
a...@hotmail.com (a) wrote:
> I have just been admitted on a 2 yr student course, and notice the uni has a
> tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art and
> am currently unfit. However, I intend to start exercising and wondered
> whether tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
It can teach you whole-body coordination and balance. It will
strengthen the odd muscle. It won't make you fit.
> Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in thinking
> that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
As good as meditation, or a couple of hours of Playstation followed by a
nap.
> Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could any
> Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager r.m-a
> posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-) .. ). If I
> learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits it
> might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> decides to fight me.
Tai Chi as it is usually taught is not going to help you in a fight if
you're an unfit guy who doesn't fight. You'll still get creamed by
anyone who wants to beat you up.
> Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I know
> that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
> damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
> opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
You can do this, with practice, if you're lots better than the person
trying to hit you. Otherwise you just get creamed. If you don't
practice "brushing away" a serious, committed, sustained attack in class
you won't be much good at it.
> Does tai chi include offensive moves?
Yup. Strikes and joint locks. If you practise them against resisting
opponents you might be able to get them to work.
But if you want to win fights, Bill's suggestion of boxing, thai boxing,
BJJ, judo, submission fighting or something of that sort is much better.
If you go to a class and no one is hitting anyone else, odds are that no
one is that class will be very good at actually hitting people who don't
want to be hit.
If you want fitness and self defence skills, you need to go to a class
that makes you out-of-breath and sweaty where you practise hitting or
submitting other people. Tai Chi has its good points, but fitness and
self-defence are not among them.
Kevin Lowe,
Brisbane, Australia.
Dmitri
> a...@hotmail.com (a) wrote in message news:<3e6bb297$0$59852$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net>...
>
> <snip> If I
> > learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits it
> > might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> > decides to fight me.
> >
> > (Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt to
> > come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight, but
> > I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order. I will
> > not back away if they take offence (unless I think they are well out of my
> > league).
>
>
> Forgive me but this sounds like you wish to engage others in pissing
> contests. That is not self defense.
>
>
>
> If I am physically attacked I will try to incapacitate the f**k out
> > of them as quickly as possible to prevent them from harming me. So far I have
> > been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
> > environments, have only been in 3, (or possibly 2, depending on how you look
> > at it....) brawls in my entire life.)
>
>
> Doesn't Tai Chi take a long time to learn? Maybe you should study
> something else too - like boxing. That way you can defend yourself
> before you become the Tai Chi master.
>
The probability of this guy becoming anything remotely resembling a
"Tai Chi master" is IMO negligibly low. Aside from the 2-year college
thing he's shooting for, he seems to have the wrong mindset. Might be
able to fix that after a few years with a good teacher, but chances of
that are laughable.
Regards,
Dmitri
Dmitri
> "Eric Neale" <calvin...@ocsnet.net> wrote in message
> news:fca39b3b.03030...@posting.google.com...
> clipped and mostly agreed with...
>
> Well tai chi isn't going to improve your cardio but it helps your balance
> and base.
>
How long have you practiced?
> There's nothing in any tai chi form I've seen that involves closing
> distance, clinching etc.
> that would assist in maintaining control during the adrenaline dump.
>
There's A LOT more to taiji than form.
> I'm always available to be convinced otherwise.
>
> Peter
>
Now *that's* good self-defense. :-)
Where are you located?
Regards,
Dmitri
Dmitri
> ........
> > I have just been admitted on a 2 yr student course, and notice the uni has a
> > tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art and
> > am currently unfit. However, I intend to start exercising and wondered
> > whether tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
>
> It can teach you whole-body coordination and balance. It will
> strengthen the odd muscle. It won't make you fit.
> If you want fitness and self defence skills, you need to go to a class
> that makes you out-of-breath and sweaty where you practise hitting or
> submitting other people. Tai Chi has its good points, but fitness and
> self-defence are not among them.
>
> Kevin Lowe,
> Brisbane, Australia.
How long (and that implies "how intensely") and with whom have you
practiced taiji, if I might ask, to have formed such opinion?
Thanks,
Dmitri
GreenDistantStar
"Dmitri" <dtdt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c497e5b3.03031...@posting.google.com...
> What makes you say that it won't improve your cardio?
What makes you say it does? Compared to circuit work, cycling etc it just
does not push you to that extent.
> Where are you located?
Mars.
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Kevin Lowe
dtdt...@yahoo.com (Dmitri) wrote:
I spent about six months with the "Australian Tai Chi Academy", and
I've been doing TC with my praying mantis KF sifu for what must be
nearly a year now (with a break in the middle when I was tutoring and
couldn't make classes).
My mother spent about 8 years studying tai chi with various teachers
around the Sunnybank area in Brisbane, and won the odd prize in forms
competitions. She can whomp a punching bag good and hard with a TC
technique, but she wouldn't have a clue how to fight.
I've done various other martial arts on and off for different periods of
time. The ones that got me stronger and fitter were the ones like silat
perisai-diri where you got aerobic exercise and you jumped around a lot.
TC has made me more relaxed and probably improved my balance, but it's
done nothing for my overall strength or fitness.
I'm standing by my statements, unless and until the original poster
comes back with "I was planning to do TC eight hours a day for ten
years, will that do anything for my strength and fitness?". TC for an
hour a day once or twice a week won't do anything for him in terms of
fitness or self-defence skills.
Kevin Lowe,
Brisbane, Australia.
Dmitri
> .......
> I'm standing by my statements, unless and until the original poster
> comes back with "I was planning to do TC eight hours a day for ten
> years, will that do anything for my strength and fitness?". TC for an
> hour a day once or twice a week won't do anything for him in terms of
> fitness or self-defence skills.
>
has its good points, but fitness and self-defence are not among them."
apply to just about any other MA. :-)
Regards,
Dmitri
Dmitri
> "Dmitri" <dtdt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:c497e5b3.03031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > What makes you say that it won't improve your cardio?
>
> What makes you say it does? Compared to circuit work, cycling etc it just
> does not push you to that extent.
>
The main answer is, like I said, that taiji is not just form. There's
plenty of "cardio" type of two-person work that *will* run you out of
breath, try for example moving (stepping) free-style push-hands for a
few minutes (if you do it right, that is.)
Form also can be very aerobic, just try going it a little slower and
sit just a little lower, just one inch lower from your "normal height"
should be quite enough to feel tremendous difference.
But all this implies that you actually practice taiji, and practice it
*correctly* at that, which I have seen no indication (in this
exchange) of you doing. So the discussion is pointless, if it is pure
theory to you. It's like I'd be discussing what it feels like and
offering clever critique to the guys who regularly fight vale tudo
without me ever trying it once.
>
> > Where are you located?
>
> Mars.
>
I see.
Dmitri
A Furman
> Ah, now *that* is a very different statement from the generic "Tai Chi
> has its good points, but fitness and self-defence are not among them."
> That I can definitely agree with. And add that it would probably
> apply to just about any other MA. :-)
>
> Regards,
> Dmitri
That's simply not true. Even a month or two of real boxing, wrestling,
or anything else that concentrates on full contact sparring work and
heavy conditioning will immensly improve ones self defence skills.
This is not just theory, I am speaking from personal experience here.
I am in no way a martial arts master of any sort. Hell, I consider
myself a begining student. But give me a month with a complete novice
even I will be able to train him to do ***much*** better in a self
defence situation. A real teacher would do even more.
I know a few Tai Chi practicioners, and I have a lot of respect for
them. Not one of the has ever said that they do Tai Chi for self
defence, and not one of them would recommend Tai Chi to anyone looking
for self defence.
Dan Bummer
>
> "'How do you feel.'
>
> 'I know Kung-Fu.'
>
> 'Show me.'"
Peter Frampton sang "Show Me the Way."
Dmitri
> > >
> > Ah, now *that* is a very different statement from the generic "Tai Chi
> > has its good points, but fitness and self-defence are not among them."
> > That I can definitely agree with. And add that it would probably
> > apply to just about any other MA. :-)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dmitri
>
> That's simply not true. Even a month or two of real boxing, wrestling,
> or anything else that concentrates on full contact sparring work and
> heavy conditioning will immensly improve ones self defence skills.
> This is not just theory, I am speaking from personal experience here.
>
I agree that the general speed in becoming more capable in
self-defense is faster in many other MA; you misunderstood the context
of my statement.
What it referred to was Kevin's phrase "TC for an hour a day once or
twice a week won't do anything for him in terms of fitness or
self-defence skills."
In this statement you can substitute TC for just about any other MA
and have a very similar outcome. Point being that with "easy"
attitude to practice, which unfortunately a lot of taiji students and
schools seem to have, results will be correspondingly minimal.
Particular schools and students, though, not to be confused with
taijiquan practice itself.
> .....
> I know a few Tai Chi practicioners, and I have a lot of respect for
> them. Not one of the has ever said that they do Tai Chi for self
> defence, and not one of them would recommend Tai Chi to anyone looking
> for self defence.
>
Yep, that's the sad truth for many, many schools and students. Not
all, however.
Regards,
Dmitri
John Smith
> > I know a few Tai Chi practicioners, and I have a lot of respect for
> > them. Not one of the has ever said that they do Tai Chi for self
> > defence, and not one of them would recommend Tai Chi to anyone looking
> > for self defence.
> >
>
> Yep, that's the sad truth for many, many schools and students. Not
> all, however.
>
Not necessarily sad. There's a group of elderly Chineese who
do Tai Chi in the park near my parents place. They seem to have
maintained alot of their flexibility and stamina, and I wish I could
get my folks to join them, or start a class somewhere.
For most folks self defense plays a fairly small role in their life,
and most folks self defense concerns would be better met by a
course in firearms than in taking a martial art.
-John
GreenDistantStar
> The main answer is, like I said, that taiji is not just form. There's
> plenty of "cardio" type of two-person work that *will* run you out of
> breath, try for example moving (stepping) free-style push-hands for a
> few minutes (if you do it right, that is.)
Sure. I know this.
> Form also can be very aerobic, just try going it a little slower and
> sit just a little lower, just one inch lower from your "normal height"
> should be quite enough to feel tremendous difference.
OK. I didn't say that Tai Chi is not a good workout...it's just not what I'd
choose
to improve aerobic capacity.
>
> But all this implies that you actually practice taiji, and practice it
> *correctly* at that, which I have seen no indication (in this
> exchange) of you doing. So the discussion is pointless, if it is pure
> theory to you.
Lots of people discuss things here they don't do, and that's fine.
I won't take Vale Tudo advice from you, and you shouldn't take
Tai Chi advice from me, OK? :)
>It's like I'd be discussing what it feels like and
> offering clever critique to the guys who regularly fight vale tudo
> without me ever trying it once.
Agree.
> > > Where are you located?
> > Mars.
>>> I see
Most here know where I'm from. Just yankin' yer chain ;>
Peter
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Dan Bummer
> It can teach you whole-body coordination and balance. It will
> strengthen the odd muscle. It won't make you fit.
Tai chi won't make you musclebound or give you ripplings abs or pecs,
that would have to be done by other exercise. Yet Tai Chi will make
you aware of what tension is and not being tense is. You learn not to
rely on muscular power. Doing hard-style like shotokan would clearly be
the reverse of what tai chi seeks. I'm not putting down hard-style at all,
some people get off by taking hard-style arts.
> > Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could any
> > Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager r.m-a
> > posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-) .. ). If I
> > learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits it
> > might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> > decides to fight me.
> Tai Chi as it is usually taught is not going to help you in a fight if
> you're an unfit guy who doesn't fight. You'll still get creamed by
> anyone who wants to beat you up.
Tai Chi will not help you if you do not know what Tai Chi moves mean,
if you just practice the moves like empty movements, as this will make
them seem boring to do. If you let yourself go, you will learn and become
aware yourself. It is up to you to want to do it. It cannot be spoonfed
the way boxing or karate are. The reason why there are ranks in other
arts is to keep the interest up, not just because they are easier to learn.
> > Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I know
> > that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
> > damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
> > opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
Tai chi experts do not "block". They go with the flow.
> You can do this, with practice, if you're lots better than the person
> trying to hit you. Otherwise you just get creamed. If you don't
> practice "brushing away" a serious, committed, sustained attack in class
> you won't be much good at it.
> > Does tai chi include offensive moves?
>
> Yup. Strikes and joint locks. If you practise them against resisting
> opponents you might be able to get them to work.
But you don't just walk up to someone and try putting a lock on him.
> But if you want to win fights, Bill's suggestion of boxing, thai boxing,
> BJJ, judo, submission fighting or something of that sort is much better.
Victory is not all that is in life. Everyone wants to be Number One and
always win all the fight. This is not a good attitude. Bill trains the
way Bill wants and fine for him, but not everyone is Bill.
Tai Chi is being willing not to fight and understanding force is weak
in many instances in life. We are taught a Western way of thinking but
it is the Western way which also ends up finding us defeated by ourselves.
> If you go to a class and no one is hitting anyone else, odds are that no
> one is that class will be very good at actually hitting people who don't
> want to be hit.
It is not a matter of mere hitting. The hitting in Tai Chi is subtle,
not always obvious.
> If you want fitness and self defence skills, you need to go to a class
> that makes you out-of-breath and sweaty where you practise hitting or
> submitting other people.
> Tai Chi has its good points, but fitness and
> self-defence are not among them.
They are and will be if you are willing to spend time to get the benefits.
Tai Chi gives you what you give it.
Dmitri
The sad part is that the above-mentioned attitude/approach to practice
promotes the idea that taijiquan is not a martial art.
Ah, even that's probably not all that sad, after all.
I don't care about this nearly as much as I did in the
(not-so-distant) past.
He who seeks shall find. :-)
Dmitri
Oliver Richman
news:f5da2227.0303...@posting.google.com...
> Kevin Lowe <sp...@spoof.gov> wrote in message
news:<spoof-9DD7CA....@news01.comindico.com.au>...
>
> > It can teach you whole-body coordination and balance. It will
> > strengthen the odd muscle. It won't make you fit.
>
> Tai chi won't make you musclebound or give you ripplings abs or pecs,
> that would have to be done by other exercise.
This is not true. I accquired *HUGE* legs from my taichi practice, and my
arms became reasonably muscular. I didn't have a 6 pack but I got flat in 3
months. I'd never been in better shape. I want in on some of that action
again :)
> If you let yourself go, you will learn and become aware yourself.
You should always be aware where you are in the form and what the move is.
> The reason why there are ranks in other
> arts is to keep the interest up, not just because they are easier to
learn.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
> Tai chi experts do not "block". They go with the flow.
yep. you never block in tai chi. :)
> > > Does tai chi include offensive moves?
yes, but as there is no first attack in a fight there is never any need for
an offensive move.
If you NEED an offensive move, you probably shouldn't be fighting that
person. At least not using tai chi.
> > Yup. Strikes and joint locks. If you practise them against resisting
> > opponents you might be able to get them to work.
>
> But you don't just walk up to someone and try putting a lock on him.
That's right. But like I said, there is never any first attack, so it's safe
to never perform an offensive move. That's not to say you won't put him in a
standing control or throw him when you accquire control.... I am talking
about an initial offensive strike (for example) when I say offense isn't
really neccessary.
The problem is, although there's nothing wrong with walking up to someone
and "putting a lock on him".. as long as he isn't a real martial artist. In
tai chi you assume everyone you fight is a martial artist, and furthermore,
that they are tai chi martial artists as well. So you never rely on "tricks"
(the japanese term for this is hamate(?) don't know the chinese.)
> > Tai Chi has its good points, but fitness and
> > self-defence are not among them.
I disagree on both counts.
> They are and will be if you are willing to spend time to get the
benefits.
> Tai Chi gives you what you give it.
That's what I agree with :)
-frl
Zolly Skocic
> This is not true. I accquired *HUGE* legs from my taichi practice, and my
> arms became reasonably muscular. I didn't have a 6 pack but I got flat in
3
> months. I'd never been in better shape. I want in on some of that action
> again :)
You got flat abs from your taichi practice?
Zolly
Kyle Brown
da...@emailaccount.com (Dan Bummer) wrote:
>
> Tai chi experts do not "block". They go with the flow.
<snip>
> Tai Chi is being willing not to fight and understanding force is weak
<snip>>
> It is not a matter of mere hitting. The hitting in Tai Chi is subtle,
> not always obvious.
<snip>
Sigh. This is exactly taiji's image problem. Look. Taiji is about
smacking people really, really hard in various surprising manners. OK? ;)
Kyle
Oliver Richman
news:C%oca.20017$Ty5.1...@news0.telusplanet.net...
Believe it or not.
-frl
nanchuan-king
others people's face.
It is hard to be acceptable? Just think about judo or jujitsu. There
are sharing the same concept.
The ultimate purpose of such of such concept is to defense without
using as much violance as possible. That is why is it named as
"taichi".
In taoism, "taichi" is the symbol of natural, peaceful and no
violance.
Mike Sigman
"nanchuan-king" <chan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a71887e1.03031...@posting.google.com...
> The original idea of taichi is to arrest people without smacking to
> others people's face.
>
> It is hard to be acceptable? Just think about judo or jujitsu. There
> are sharing the same concept.
>
> The ultimate purpose of such of such concept is to defense without
> using as much violance as possible. That is why is it named as
> "taichi".
> In taoism, "taichi" is the symbol of natural, peaceful and no
> violance.
????????? Where can I buy the same comic books that you learned from?
Dan Bummer
> news:f5da2227.0303...@posting.google.com...
> > Kevin Lowe <sp...@spoof.gov> wrote in message
> news:<spoof-9DD7CA....@news01.comindico.com.au>...
> >
> > > It can teach you whole-body coordination and balance. It will
> > > strengthen the odd muscle. It won't make you fit.
> >
> > Tai chi won't make you musclebound or give you ripplings abs or pecs,
> > that would have to be done by other exercise.
>
> This is not true. I accquired *HUGE* legs from my taichi practice, and my
> arms became reasonably muscular. I didn't have a 6 pack but I got flat in 3
> months. I'd never been in better shape. I want in on some of that action
> again :)
Depends upon the training and upon the individual then.
> > If you let yourself go, you will learn and become aware yourself.
>
> You should always be aware where you are in the form and what the move is.
It comes second nature with practice.
> > The reason why there are ranks in other
> > arts is to keep the interest up, not just because they are easier to
> learn.
>
> Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
:-) Glad you agree.
> > Tai chi experts do not "block". They go with the flow.
>
> yep. you never block in tai chi. :)
> > > > Does tai chi include offensive moves?
>
> yes, but as there is no first attack in a fight there is never any need for
> an offensive move.
> If you NEED an offensive move, you probably shouldn't be fighting that
> person. At least not using tai chi.
Then you'd shift to Shaolin if you also know that.
> > > Yup. Strikes and joint locks. If you practise them against resisting
> > > opponents you might be able to get them to work.
> >
> > But you don't just walk up to someone and try putting a lock on him.
>
> That's right. But like I said, there is never any first attack, so it's safe
> to never perform an offensive move. That's not to say you won't put him in a
> standing control or throw him when you accquire control.... I am talking
> about an initial offensive strike (for example) when I say offense isn't
> really neccessary.
Right, offense isn't neccessary. You let the other initiate.
I would say this with Taichi and Hung Gar too.
> The problem is, although there's nothing wrong with walking up to someone
> and "putting a lock on him".. as long as he isn't a real martial artist. In
> tai chi you assume everyone you fight is a martial artist, and furthermore,
> that they are tai chi martial artists as well. So you never rely on "tricks"
> (the japanese term for this is hamate(?) don't know the chinese.)
Tricks meaning techniques?
> > > Tai Chi has its good points, but fitness and
> > > self-defence are not among them.
>
> I disagree on both counts.
Me too. This is from someone who has a closed mind.
Dan Bummer
> Sigh. This is exactly taiji's image problem. Look. Taiji is about
> smacking people really, really hard in various surprising manners. OK? ;)
No. Taichi is about subtle combat.
Oliver Richman
> > You should always be aware where you are in the form and what the move
is.
>
> It comes second nature with practice.
I know what you mean, however, I am talking about is intentionally keeping
your mind on your movements. Don't wait for it to happen, make it happen.
> > > The reason why there are ranks in other
> > > arts is to keep the interest up, not just because they are easier to
> > learn.
> >
> > Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
>
> :-) Glad you agree.
So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi. Just a thought.
please visit http://members.rogers.com/frl8/kf-main.htm for my thoughts on
belt ranks in tai chi.
> > > > > Does tai chi include offensive moves?
> >
> > yes, but as there is no first attack in a fight there is never any need
for
> > an offensive move.
>
> > If you NEED an offensive move, you probably shouldn't be fighting that
> > person. At least not using tai chi.
>
> Then you'd shift to Shaolin if you also know that.
I think you could still use taiji. 'Switching to shaolin' like that isn't
really feasable, when you do taiji everything is pretty much taiji. What I
am talking about is this. In a fight in the taiji model, one person always
becomes yang and the other should become yin in response. If this does not
occurr, there is a clash when both become yang or nothing happens when both
become yin. So as you say below it's just a strategy applicable to both
arts.
> Right, offense isn't neccessary. You let the other initiate.
> I would say this with Taichi and Hung Gar too.
---------------
> > The problem is, although there's nothing wrong with walking up to
someone
> > and "putting a lock on him".. as long as he isn't a real martial artist.
In
> > tai chi you assume everyone you fight is a martial artist, and
furthermore,
> > that they are tai chi martial artists as well. So you never rely on
"tricks"
> > (the japanese term for this is hamate(?) don't know the chinese.)
>
> Tricks meaning techniques?
I'll give an examples. In response to a punch, you could possibly block and
strike. If you commit to the counterattack you could be relying on a trick,
since you are depending on the person who launched the initial attack not to
be able to block that strike. That's not to say tricks are useless - they
save you time against people who don't know the tricks.
The block-punch answer is therefore a trick. it works against an untrained
opponent, but against someone who is trained, the counterattack will
probably be blocked. If it is, you are now set up for a chin na control at
his mercy. This is why when you seem to launch an attack you are really not
launching an attack. Don't rely on tricks. Keep your mind on your movements.
If you block and strike in response to a punch, you would only do so because
you pre-read a weakness in his defense (no guard hand, for example). This
might be considered lie in taiji (cai lie zhou kao, this might be considered
'lie') since he isn't suspecting the attack. If he was, then it's not really
the taiji lie energy.
-frl
nanchuan-king
Of Jeet Kun Do" written by bruce lee, and think the theories written
inside all are bullshit, than you will think it is a comic book ....
"Mike Sigman" <mikes...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<v7695lb...@corp.supernews.com>...
Jason Haynes
Nice One !
Jason Haynes
I'm not sure what you mean by subtle combat, maybe using subtlety to deliver
surprising attacks?
Anyhow, I'm up for some subtle combat the next time the shit hits the fan !
Happy Wandering....
Oliver Richman
> Of Jeet Kun Do" written by bruce lee, and think the theories written
> inside all are bullshit, than you will think it is a comic book ....
Bruce lee said a lot of nearly true yet stupid things.
He was a genius at partially explaining eastern modes of thought under the
guise of western philosophy.
-frl
Jason Haynes
> "nanchuan-king" <chan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a71887e1.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > In fact, if you do not believe even a single word of the book "The Tao
> > Of Jeet Kun Do" written by bruce lee, and think the theories written
> > inside all are bullshit, than you will think it is a comic book ....
>
> Bruce lee said a lot of nearly true yet stupid things.
So have you Oliver !
> He was a genius at partially explaining eastern modes of thought under the
> guise of western philosophy.
>
> -frl
Oliver is a genius at partially explaining eastern principles of Taiji under
the
guise of Egocentrical thinking !
>
>
Dan Bummer
> "Dan Bummer" <da...@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
>
> > > You should always be aware where you are in the form and what the move
> is.
> >
> > It comes second nature with practice.
>
> I know what you mean, however, I am talking about is intentionally keeping
> your mind on your movements. Don't wait for it to happen, make it happen.
Make sure your movements are do properly or as proper as possible, making
every move count. If you do make any error, you merely go on and keep
aware of future moves. Of course, you might feel different everyday, your
movements may be a bit different, but that's okay.
> > > > The reason why there are ranks in other
> > > > arts is to keep the interest up, not just because they are easier to
> > > learn.
> > >
> > > Yeah that pretty much sums it up.
>
> > :-) Glad you agree.
>
> So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi. Just a thought.
> please visit http://members.rogers.com/frl8/kf-main.htm for my thoughts on
> belt ranks in tai chi.
Nope, I don't see any need for belt ranks in Tai Chi! Besides they would
have to be sash ranks not belt ranks, to keep in firm place with kung fu,
which is what tai chi is a form of. I'm not interested, entirely opposed
to *belt* ranks at all.
> > > > > > Does tai chi include offensive moves?
> > >
> > > yes, but as there is no first attack in a fight there is never any need
> for
> > > an offensive move.
>
> > > If you NEED an offensive move, you probably shouldn't be fighting that
> > > person. At least not using tai chi.
> >
> > Then you'd shift to Shaolin if you also know that.
>
> I think you could still use taiji. 'Switching to shaolin' like that isn't
> really feasable, when you do taiji everything is pretty much taiji. What I
> am talking about is this. In a fight in the taiji model, one person always
> becomes yang and the other should become yin in response. If this does not
> occurr, there is a clash when both become yang or nothing happens when both
> become yin. So as you say below it's just a strategy applicable to both
> arts.
What I mean is it's possible you might have to use shaolin if you don't use
taichi. What I mean is if you know shaolin as well as taichi, you may be
inclined to use either. Your preference, of course, and the situation may not
call for it. You may use either "wave hands like clouds" for instance or
single-finger blocking.
> > Right, offense isn't neccessary. You let the other initiate.
> > I would say this with Taichi and Hung Gar too.
>
> ---------------
>
> > > The problem is, although there's nothing wrong with walking up to
> someone
> > > and "putting a lock on him".. as long as he isn't a real martial artist.
> In
> > > tai chi you assume everyone you fight is a martial artist, and
> furthermore,
> > > that they are tai chi martial artists as well. So you never rely on
> "tricks"
> > > (the japanese term for this is hamate(?) don't know the chinese.)
> >
> > Tricks meaning techniques?
>
> I'll give an examples. In response to a punch, you could possibly block and
> strike. If you commit to the counterattack you could be relying on a trick,
> since you are depending on the person who launched the initial attack not to
> be able to block that strike. That's not to say tricks are useless - they
> save you time against people who don't know the tricks.
If he is stronger than you, he may be able to block. Now in hung gar, there
is a southern mantis (phoenix-eye) simultaneous block/strike-drill. He may
block, but the strike/drill may still get him.
> The block-punch answer is therefore a trick. it works against an untrained
> opponent, but against someone who is trained, the counterattack will
> probably be blocked. If it is, you are now set up for a chin na control at
> his mercy.
As above, the strike/drill may get him if he blocks anyway. The strike is
with one hand, the block with the other. It's a simultaneous two-limb
action, so the chinna move may not be easily applied by him.
> This is why when you seem to launch an attack you are really not
> launching an attack. Don't rely on tricks. Keep your mind on your movements.
> If you block and strike in response to a punch, you would only do so because
> you pre-read a weakness in his defense (no guard hand, for example). This
> might be considered lie in taiji (cai lie zhou kao, this might be considered
> 'lie') since he isn't suspecting the attack. If he was, then it's not really
> the taiji lie energy.
The move I just relented on could be like taiji brush/push to give you
some idea
Dan Bummer
> >
> > No. Taichi is about subtle combat.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by subtle combat, maybe using subtlety to deliver
> surprising attacks?
> Anyhow, I'm up for some subtle combat the next time the shit hits the fan !
No, you can just ignore it and walk away. :-) Subtle combat.
Dan Bummer
> Swimming and bike riding are MUCH better.
> To get fit you wanna get your heartrate up and hold it there for awhile.
> You want real cardio excersize.Not taichi.
Taichi can be real cardio exercise. Some people cannot swim or bike
ride,
unless you include stationary bike riding.
> >Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in thinking
> >that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
>
> Beer is better.
Drinking any type of alcoholic beverage to relax with is a serious
invitation
to become a long-term alcoholic. Your liver is at risk here. I've
known
people who died younger than 40 because they consumed beer everyday
in
40 ouncers to relax with.
> Try wrestling, boxing, Judo, Brazilian Jiujitsu or Thaiboxing.
> Those are what work.
They may work but they're not for everyone.
> Let me guess....word-a-day calender?
>
> > I know
> >that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort
> ...cant ....stifle...laughter....
> HAHAHAHA!
> Sorry.
> >t and minimum
> >damage to the opponent
> Well you got that part right.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > is
> >Tai Chi still as effective for defence today?
>
> Yes.Just as effective as ever.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >Brushing aside an assailant who
> >then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
>
> "brushing" dont really win much even without the gunplay.But still, you are
> correct.
Brushing is merely a term for parrying
Oliver Richman
> > > In fact, if you do not believe even a single word of the book "The Tao
> > > Of Jeet Kun Do" written by bruce lee, and think the theories written
> > > inside all are bullshit, than you will think it is a comic book ....
> >
> > Bruce lee said a lot of nearly true yet stupid things.
>
> So have you Oliver !
I'm sorry, did you have a point which you wanted to make in order to further
a discussion, or were you more interested in poking fun at me for no
particular reason?
What, did I kick your dog or something? go away j.
-frl
Oliver Richman
> > I know what you mean, however, I am talking about is intentionally
keeping
> > your mind on your movements. Don't wait for it to happen, make it
happen.
>
> Make sure your movements are do properly or as proper as possible,
making
> every move count. If you do make any error, you merely go on and keep
> aware of future moves. Of course, you might feel different everyday,
your
> movements may be a bit different, but that's okay.
It's interesting what you said about making an error.
What would constitute an error? To me, it would be a period of difficulty,
of not-smoothness. There's a certain flow, a certain not-stopping, and if I
find myself grinding my own bones for example I wonder if I've not made a
mistake. To me, those are the areas of the form I need to work on the most.
> > The block-punch answer is therefore a trick. it works against an
untrained
> > opponent, but against someone who is trained, the counterattack will
> > probably be blocked. If it is, you are now set up for a chin na control
at
> > his mercy.
>
> As above, the strike/drill may get him if he blocks anyway. The strike
is
> with one hand, the block with the other. It's a simultaneous two-limb
> action, so the chinna move may not be easily applied by him.
Yes, if you see an opening by all means... If you could pull that off inside
the opponent's attack then I wouldn't think there could be a response.
-frl
Eric Neale
False delema. He was poking fun at you for a very particular reason.
> What, did I kick your dog or something? go away j.
Ah yes. You have been reduced to telling your critics to shut up and go away.
Regards,
-Eric
Jason Haynes
Yes the point is why don't you quote some of the considered "stupid things"
Bruce Lee had said Oliver, instead of putting your self once again on such a
self agrandising egocentrical platform, perhaps Lee shoulda been taking
advice from Ollie ?
> What, did I kick your dog or something? go away j.
Nah, my dog woulda bit you, and you woulda yielded, in a taiji manner, all
the way to the ground that is! (Still maintaining the contact of both
heels, rootedness! where lu jing beats woof woof jing !)
Ta Da !!!!!!!
Happy Wandering.....
Oliver Richman
news:fca39b3b.03031...@posting.google.com...
> Ah yes. You have been reduced to telling your critics to shut up and go
away.
Shut up and go away, eric.
-frl
Oliver Richman
> Yes the point is why don't you quote some of the considered "stupid
things"
> Bruce Lee had said Oliver, instead of putting your self once again on such
a
> self agrandising egocentrical platform, perhaps Lee shoulda been taking
> advice from Ollie ?
Perhaps he should have.
You are mistaken about me putting myself on a platform. My position on bruce
lee was qualified many years ago where I posted quotes, etc.
Listen jason, I don't feel like searching for it on google right this second
to satisfy your heatseeking ass ok?
> > What, did I kick your dog or something? go away j.
>
> Nah, my dog woulda bit you, and you woulda yielded, in a taiji manner, all
> the way to the ground that is! (Still maintaining the contact of both
> heels, rootedness! where lu jing beats woof woof jing !)
>
> Ta Da !!!!!!!
omfg that was lame...
-frl
Jason Haynes
> "Jason Haynes" <sonics...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:b54art$57m$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
>
> > Yes the point is why don't you quote some of the considered "stupid
> things"
> > Bruce Lee had said Oliver, instead of putting your self once again on
such
> a
> > self agrandising egocentrical platform, perhaps Lee shoulda been taking
> > advice from Ollie ?
>
> Perhaps he should have.
>
> You are mistaken about me putting myself on a platform. My position on
bruce
> lee was qualified many years ago where I posted quotes, etc.
Qualified ? Then please give me an example of something stupid Lee said...
I did the Google search and you have chipped in you two pennies worth on Lee
on more
than one occasion
No can you tell us all at RMA of an example of something "stupid" Lee
said...
Dan Bummer
> "Dan Bummer" <da...@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
>
> > > I know what you mean, however, I am talking about is intentionally
> keeping
> > > your mind on your movements. Don't wait for it to happen, make it
> happen.
> >
> > Make sure your movements are do properly or as proper as possible,
> making
> > every move count. If you do make any error, you merely go on and keep
> > aware of future moves. Of course, you might feel different everyday,
> your
> > movements may be a bit different, but that's okay.
>
> It's interesting what you said about making an error.
>
> What would constitute an error? To me, it would be a period of difficulty,
> of not-smoothness. There's a certain flow, a certain not-stopping, and if I
> find myself grinding my own bones for example I wonder if I've not made a
> mistake. To me, those are the areas of the form I need to work on the most.
When you get older, your bones can grind after being overused, literally.
You can never make up for errors you've already made, you can just be
cautious from continuing them or avoiding making them. There is room for
error as we're imperfect, though. You learn from mistakes.
> > As above, the strike/drill may get him if he blocks anyway. The strike
> is
> > with one hand, the block with the other. It's a simultaneous two-limb
> > action, so the chinna move may not be easily applied by him.
>
> Yes, if you see an opening by all means... If you could pull that off inside
> the opponent's attack then I wouldn't think there could be a response.
As opposed to a karate mindset where you block then strike one after the
other not at the same time. I guess Bruce Lee dwelled on that as being
restrictive and wasted motion.
Dan Bummer
>
> So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi.
Ollie, don't be such a kike/heeb
>
> > > If you NEED an offensive move, you probably shouldn't be fighting that
> > > person. At least not using tai chi.
> >
> > Then you'd shift to Shaolin if you also know that.
>
> I think you could still use taiji. 'Switching to shaolin' like that isn't
> really feasable, when you do taiji everything is pretty much taiji. What I
> am talking about is this. In a fight in the taiji model, one person always
> becomes yang and the other should become yin in response.
But in a fight your opponent will not become this or that. There is a
principle taiji may follow but suppose you have to resort to shaolin.
Shaolin is not that far removed from taiji but you are familiar with
both taiji and shaolin. (After all, you admitted taiji is like hung gar)
> If this does not
> occurr, there is a clash when both become yang or nothing happens when both
> become yin. So as you say below it's just a strategy applicable to both
> arts.
Well, yes, in the case of the crane which is yin or the snake which is
yin
>
> The block-punch answer is therefore a trick. it works against an untrained
> opponent, but against someone who is trained, the counterattack will
> probably be blocked. If it is, you are now set up for a chin na control at
> his mercy. This is why when you seem to launch an attack you are really not
> launching an attack. Don't rely on tricks. Keep your mind on your movements.
> If you block and strike in response to a punch, you would only do so because
> you pre-read a weakness in his defense (no guard hand, for example). This
> might be considered lie in taiji (cai lie zhou kao, this might be considered
> 'lie') since he isn't suspecting the attack. If he was, then it's not really
> the taiji lie energy.
Anytime you engage in a fight with someone you don't know, he could be
either trained or not. Someone could be coordinated at, say, skateboarding,
and be balanced, if not knowledgeable in any martial art. Movements should
be fluid, but this of course, isn't easy if you're under pressure. Even
taiji may not be easy under pressure.
Oliver Richman
> "Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:<qKNca.143294$em1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
>
> >
> > So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi.
>
> Ollie, don't be such a kike/heeb
I wouldn't expect you to understand.
You're still trying to figure it all out. I'm on another level.
-frl
Dan Bummer
Since you never took Shaolin, you only see one side of the coin.
You're the one who thinks he's got it all figured out now. You're
on the same level still.
My reply was to your "don't be such a putz."
Oliver Richman
<Barri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:hqs58vshqpgjb0nrg...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2003 03:26:54 GMT, "Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Tai chi experts do not "block". They go with the flow.
>
>
>
> >I'll give an examples. In response to a punch, you could possibly block
and
> >strike. If you commit to the counterattack you could be relying on a
trick,
> >since you are depending on the person who launched the initial attack not
to
> >be able to block that strike. That's not to say tricks are useless - they
> >save you time against people who don't know the tricks.
>
untrained
> >opponent, but against someone who is trained, the counterattack will
> >probably be blocked.
>
> to a punch, you could possibly block...."?
>
> At first I thought you knew the words, but not the music. Now it
> becomes apparent that you know neither.
>
> You're still giving Tai Chi a bad rep with your blatherings.
Larry didn't I just say that it was a trick, implying a trained martial
artist wouldn't block/punch?
Sorry but you are reading way more than you should into what I say.
-frl
Mike Sigman
conversation between some very stoned Opium smokers. Dreamy. Surreal.
Totally removed from reality. :^)
Mike
"Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:oOFga.33085$s421....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Oliver Richman
> Occasionally I look over at this thread, Ollie. It's like watching the
> conversation between some very stoned Opium smokers. Dreamy. Surreal.
> Totally removed from reality. :^)
>
> Mike
Hmm. Wasn't master Wang XiangZhai and/or master Yang (Lu Chan?) both opium
smokers? Maybe I should put that as a footnote into my lineage charts ^^`
-frl
> "Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message
kellywildchild
knows more about this martial art?
"Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<vnRaa.77316$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> "a" <a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3e6bb297$0$59852$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
> > I have just been admitted on a 2 yr student course, and notice the uni has
> a
> > tai chi club. I know nothing much about tai chi, or any other martial art
> and
> > am currently unfit. However, I intend to start exercising and wondered
> whether
> > tai chi might be good as part of a fitness regime.
> >
> > Also, it seems quite tranquil when practising. Would I be right in
> thinking
> > that it might be a good relaxant in a highly stressful post-grad degree?
>
> Yeah, sure. And why not? Approach it with a meditation in motion mindset.
>
> > Finally, a couple of questions I thought about Tai Chi and defence. Could
> any
> > Tai Chi experts (really, please, Tai Chi fanatics, not just overeager
> r.m-a
> > posters who have read about it somewhere in a book please... ;-) .. ). If
> I
> > learn a martial art, however much I value the fitness and mental benefits
> it
> > might bring, I want it to help me defend myself successfully if someone
> > decides to fight me.
>
> Now that's the problem. What you are going to learn in your university club
> or anywhere close to there simply isn't going to work on the street. I'll
> explain it that way this time. It just won't work on the street. You need
> the right foundation, foundation meaning physical strengths and abilities.
> Then you need to learn how to use that foundation from the ground up. Tai
> chi is not a set of moves used for self defense. I wish people would realise
> how truly revolutionary it is. "Tai Chi is a process you have to go through"
> (CXW or ZTC I think).
>
> Oh yeah so you want to fight. Get your needle-o-meeters ready because you
> have a whole world of freakin' haystacks to sort through. First you need to
> agree on an ORDER OF FOCUS. Meaning you need to figure out where to START.
> Pick the wrong spot or skip too much or leave too much out (accidentally or
> otherwise) and it's nearly HOPELESS. I kid you not.
>
> Second you need to WORK. And hard. Most people just don't have the time.
>
> Third you need to preservere. It takes a long time of seeing *no results and
> no improvement*. Realizations come in leaps and bounds. Often you can either
> do something or know something, or not, and there is no in-between. Often
> you will come accross people who will try to make you feel bad because your
> focus is different or you don't know as much as them. Only remember this.
> Tai Chi as a martial art CAN be taught, but for all intents and purposes you
> will probably need to figure it out for yourself. Therefore the only
> important knowledge that you should be interested in is discovering a
> complete training methodology which will allow you to achieve all skills
> mentioned as being part of Tai Chi. This is important. (this is related to
> order of focus because you can't do everything at once).
>
> > (Basically, my current unenlightened general attitude is - I will attempt
> to
> > come into any situation courteously. I will not physically start a fight,
> but
> > I will verbally point out where I think people are being out of order. I
> will
> > not back away if they take offence (unless I think they are well out of my
> > league). If I am physically attacked I will try to incapacitate the f**k
> out
> > of them as quickly as possible to prevent them from harming me. So far I
> have
> > been lucky and as an adult who sometimes parties out in less salubrious
> > environments, have only been in 3, (or possibly 2, depending on how you
> look
> > at it....) brawls in my entire life.)
>
> You know what?
>
> Try Aikido. They do a lot of partner work. In tai chi they don't let you do
> partner work until you're of a higher level, and then you realize how
> difficult it is to find anyone to do partner work at all.
>
> American tai chi breeds the mentality that partner work isn't tai chi. Don't
> pick that bad habit up and you'll be fine.
>
> > Personal caveman philosophy aside, my question about tai chi is this : I
> know
> > that Tai Chi experts can block most moves with minimum effort and minimum
> > damage to the opponent - almost like brushing the attacks away using the
> > opponent's own momentum to their disadvantage.
> >
> > This seems to me to be the ideal way to have handled the sort of situation
> I
> > have described above a couple of hundred years ago, and if I was around
> then,
> > I would probably have been learning tai chi for years already. However, in
> > today's day and age, with firearms becoming more efficient (ie preloaded
> vs
> > old muskets and preparing cartridges), smaller (ie tiny handguns
> nowadays,
> > easily concealed), and ubiquitous (I would think that there are more
> handguns
> > in the private population of the world today then ever before in history),
> is
> > Tai Chi still as effective for defence today? Brushing aside an assailant
> who
> > then pulls a pistol out of his pants belt is not going to win you a fight.
>
> Is anything? I mean heck - no art will stop a gun, except possibly tai chi
> and aikido. But unless you're planning to be the next morihei ueshiba, don't
> even bother.
>
> If any art is useful at all, then all of them are, basically. Just don't try
> any shit on the guy with a gun.
>
>
> > [snip] surely it seems to me, that a Tai Chi student, assuming he/she
> cannot make
> > a retreat/escape a fight (best move), ought to be using more offensive
> options
> > than defensive blocks. Does tai chi include offensive moves? what is the
> Tai
> > Chi philosophy for defence if you cannot escape and your enemy is
> dangerous?
>
> You never block in tai chi. Repeat after me. You never block in tai chi.
>
> Anyways.. just use your brain. If your opponent is better just stop the
> fight. Run, do whatever. Your art enables you - it is not a list of rules of
> combat, generally speaking.
>
> > And, solely for defensive purposes (versus mental and physical health), if
> > there is no offensive Tai Chi strategy, is Tai Chi still relevant as a
> form of
> > defense today?
>
> Even aikido has an offensive form. Tai chi definately has an offensive form.
> Do not be fooled by people doing slow movements in the park. Study.
> Research. *find a way to make weird stuff make sense with other stuff*. Tai
> chi is like a gun camoflaged in the mud. You can't see it and you don't know
> where it is. People might tell you it doesen't exist but after staring and
> searching you might see it and pick it up, and then you will be hard to
> beat.
>
> -frl
Mike Sigman
>
> "Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:<vnRaa.77316$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> >Tai chi is like a gun camoflaged in the mud.
Yeah, you pick it up thinking you can use it but there's so much mud in the
action that the gun won't work. So you're reduced to trying to talk your
opponent to death.
Mike
Dan Bummer
>>> So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi.
> >
> > Ollie, don't be such a kike/heeb
>
> I wouldn't expect you to understand.
I see you didn't, either. My reply was *only* meant in answer to "Dan, don't
be such a putz" you uttered elsewhere.
> You're still trying to figure it all out. I'm on another level.
You're funny, Oliver. I figured it out long ago. "Combat Tai Chi Chuan"
and "Advanced Tai Chi Chuan" came out many years ago and were quite helpful,
too. Besides, there's nothing wrong with knowing Shaolin and Tai Chi.
Oliver Richman
>
>
> >>> So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi.
> > >
> > > Ollie, don't be such a kike/heeb
> >
> > I wouldn't expect you to understand.
>
> I see you didn't, either. My reply was *only* meant in answer to "Dan,
don't
> be such a putz" you uttered elsewhere.
Thats not the information you presented. You presented "so maybe we should
institute belt ranks..."
> > You're still trying to figure it all out. I'm on another level.
>
> You're funny, Oliver. I figured it out long ago. "Combat Tai Chi Chuan"
> and "Advanced Tai Chi Chuan" came out many years ago and were quite
helpful,
> too. Besides, there's nothing wrong with knowing Shaolin and Tai Chi.
You're right.
Now what is the essence of shaolin? And what is the essence of Tai Chi?
They're different.
-frl
Dan Bummer
I never said they weren't but they are both *kung fu*. Ahhhhh....
Dan Bummer
> "Dan Bummer" <da...@emailaccount.com> wrote in message
> news:f5da2227.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > "Oliver Richman" <fr...@rogers.com> wrote
> >
> >
> > >>> So maybe we should institute belt ranks for tai chi.
> > > >
> > > > Ollie, don't be such a kike/heeb
> > >
> > > I wouldn't expect you to understand.
> >
> > I see you didn't, either. My reply was *only* meant in answer to "Dan,
> don't
> > be such a putz" you uttered elsewhere.
>
> Thats not the information you presented. You presented "so maybe we should
> institute belt ranks..."
But you uttered "don't be a putz" elsewhere. I don't feel TC should have any
belt ranks because the internal kf arts (TC, pa kua, hsing i)have no rank and
are not 'competitive-types' the way external kf is taken to be.
> > > You're still trying to figure it all out. I'm on another level.
> >
> > You're funny, Oliver. I figured it out long ago. "Combat Tai Chi Chuan"
> > and "Advanced Tai Chi Chuan" came out many years ago and were quite
> helpful,
> > too. Besides, there's nothing wrong with knowing Shaolin and Tai Chi.
>
> You're right.
Thank you.
> Now what is the essence of shaolin? And what is the essence of Tai Chi?
>
> They're different.
>
You may be right there but I know a man who knows two Tai Chis, Wing Chun
and Hung Gar. Master of all. Perhaps not very common but he exists.