Your martial arts shame.
Fraser Johnston
stuff that I used to think about martial arts that I now shake my head at.
Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
That because an art was Japanese it was generally better.
Chambering punches at the hip was a good idea.
Boxers would be easy to beat on the street because you could just kick them.
A front snap kick would easily break ribs.
Hakamas are a good idea.
Punching air for an hour taught you how to fight.
Wrestling had no martial application.
Judo didn't help in a street fight.
Aikido is unstoppable and the king of all martial-arts.
Learning how to defend bare handed against a sword was a useful life skill.
Guns always beat knives.
Fraser
theoriginaldimi
Fraser Johnston schreef:
Under all conditions striking > Grappling
A blackbelt karateka beats any boxer easily
JC Van Damme can actually fight
Small chinese dudes can take on every gang, regardless of physical
size, quantity and weapons they might carry
You can punch someones nose-bose into their brains
You can kill someone from kicking them in the chest
Higher belt = better fighter
Krav Maga is the best MA
Martial arts for the street are better then sporting arts like judo or
boxing
Karate/Kung Fu/Silat/JJJ/... does not work in NHB because they are not
allowed to use all of the techniques they learn.
Bowling ball style eye gouges have worked at least one time as a fight
ender in the history of mankind.
Dimitri
Scary
You did Aikido, so did I!
I agree with everything you say but I still don't think my
traditional martial arts training was a total waste of time.
When I was a kid I was much more idealistic then I am now and the
newagey sort of mysticism that permeates Aikido appealed to me.
There's that and also the fact that you tend to meet a lot of hippie
chicks that need their Hara's aligned.
Scary
Fraser Johnston
"Scary" <model...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1149163394....@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Yep. Aikido, Karate, Shotokan, Kickboxing, JJJ and now BJJ. I enjoyed all
my martial arts training and got a lot out of it. Some of it taught me how
to fight but some of it just got me fit, taught me how to fall properly or
introduced me to some good friends.
Fraser
Rabid Weasel
> You did Aikido, so did I!
> I agree with everything you say but I still don't think my
> traditional martial arts training was a total waste of time.
> When I was a kid I was much more idealistic then I am now and the
> newagey sort of mysticism that permeates Aikido appealed to me.
> There's that and also the fact that you tend to meet a lot of hippie
> chicks that need their Hara's aligned.
Yeah, me too. I do Judo (glug glug) now. Aikido has very much helped me
with my balance and timing in Judo. Not years ahead, mind you, but
maybe 6-10 months.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Rabid Weasel
> Yep. Aikido, Karate, Shotokan, Kickboxing, JJJ and now BJJ. I enjoyed all
> my martial arts training and got a lot out of it. Some of it taught me how
> to fight but some of it just got me fit, taught me how to fall properly or
> introduced me to some good friends.
>
> Fraser
OK, yeah. I forgot "safe falling." I'm literally *years* ahead in Ukemi.
It does, in a *small* way, help me play Judo better. I can be more
aggressive in randori and have pretty much *no* concern whatsoever that
I'll be injured from a bad fall.
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
<fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>As we grow older our outlook on things tend to change. There is tons of
>stuff that I used to think about martial arts that I now shake my head at.
>Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
>
>That because an art was Japanese it was generally better.
Yep, been there.
>Chambering punches at the hip was a good idea.
I never bought that one :) That was moronic from day one.
Ditto the idea of 'toughening the bones' by repeatedly smashing
forearms together. How about just moving the fuck outta the way?
>Boxers would be easy to beat on the street because you could just kick them.
*whistles innocently and hides I <3 Jean Claude Van Damme sprakly
underwear*
>A front snap kick would easily break ribs.
Nope. But I bought into the "4 pounds of pressure against the knee
side kick" thing
>Hakamas are a good idea.
I kinda like em, truth be told. The look groovy, but are probably just
fucking annoying?
You've worn em more than I have, so maybe you can refute the whole "it
makes your footwork better" myth?
>Punching air for an hour taught you how to fight.
I only believed in that till I tried boxing. Then - not so much
>Wrestling had no martial application.
Again, till I tried it :)
>Judo didn't help in a street fight.
Ditto
(for shame)
>Aikido is unstoppable and the king of all martial-arts.
Never bought that one either, but I came to aikido late in the piece,
after exposure to MT, boxing, judo, BJJ etc
>Learning how to defend bare handed against a sword was a useful life skill.
Sure - chicks dig it :)
I think the worst BS I bought into was the 'limb conditioning' shit.
- If it flies, floats or fucks, you are better off
renting it.
************************************************************
Remove FAKE to email me
*************************************************************
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
<lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote:
>OK, yeah. I forgot "safe falling." I'm literally *years* ahead in Ukemi.
>It does, in a *small* way, help me play Judo better. I can be more
>aggressive in randori and have pretty much *no* concern whatsoever that
>I'll be injured from a bad fall.
Clearly, you've not met 'Teh Tracktor' and 'Teh BullDozer' from my
club :)
Google the net for 'spear tackle' - they're *big* fans of that one ;)
Rabid Weasel
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:08:13 GMT, Rabid Weasel
> <lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote:
>
>
>>OK, yeah. I forgot "safe falling." I'm literally *years* ahead in Ukemi.
>>It does, in a *small* way, help me play Judo better. I can be more
>>aggressive in randori and have pretty much *no* concern whatsoever that
>>I'll be injured from a bad fall.
>
> Clearly, you've not met 'Teh Tracktor' and 'Teh BullDozer' from my
> club :)
>
> Google the net for 'spear tackle' - they're *big* fans of that one ;)
hehehe
Doesn't happen much at my level. Most falls are from after coming to
grips in randori/shiai. Though we *do* have a lot of wrestlers and
ex-wrestlers at my club (the assistant coach is an ex-wrestler) so singles
and doubles (where appropriate) as well as wrestling holds, etc. aren't
exactly unheard of. :-)
The head instructor has a LEO background so he's fond of tossing in a
smidge of SD from time to time as well.
I'm gigg'n on it!
Love'n every minute of it. (someone should write an 80's song with that
title!)
Neil Gendzwill
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:46:44 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
> <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Hakamas are a good idea.
>
> I kinda like em, truth be told. The look groovy, but are probably just
> fucking annoying?
For weapons arts, they're just fine. PITA if you have to use the john,
but other than that they're comfy, look super-snazzy and aren't as much
trouble to care for as you'd think. You do have to fold them rather
than stuff them in a gym bag.
I don't understand why you'd want to grapple in them. I *really* don't
understand why the aikido guys insist on wearing their zubon under them.
> You've worn em more than I have, so maybe you can refute the whole "it
> makes your footwork better" myth?
I've never heard that. They do tend to hide the footwork, which is why
we don't let beginners wear them for the first few months.
Neil
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>A front snap kick would easily break ribs.
??
I've had ribs cracked by me being kicked in this manner. Why do you
think this is wrong?
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
<lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote:
>Doesn't happen much at my level.
Aw - they're nice to Ned. Sweet of em. Bless :P
I'll have to videotape 'teh traktor turnover' for you. It's mean :)
> Most falls are from after coming to
>grips in randori/shiai. Though we *do* have a lot of wrestlers and
>ex-wrestlers at my club (the assistant coach is an ex-wrestler) so singles
>and doubles (where appropriate) as well as wrestling holds, etc. aren't
>exactly unheard of. :-)
I'm seriously considering adding a day or two of aikido back in the
mix. Firstly I miss it. Secondly, my throws have become too 'muscular'
and I can't get away with brute force much longer. And thirdly, I'd
like to make my ukemi even better.
Dunno - after the beating I get at judo, maybe some nice, crunchy
granola, hippy aikkikai stuff would serve as a days' active rest?
(dang it. And I just found a Kali place that trains on nights I dont
do judo :S. More hours in the day and more days in the week, please)
>The head instructor has a LEO background so he's fond of tossing in a
>smidge of SD from time to time as well.
Sounds like a fabbo place. Congrats!
One of the sweetest things is a instructor who doesn't mind you doing
knee rides. I try to sneak in a few every now and again, but they're
pretty 'competition illegal, boo hoo' around here.
Badger_s<Badger_s@south.com
wrote:
>One of the sweetest things is a instructor who doesn't mind you doing
>knee rides. I try to sneak in a few every now and again, but they're
>pretty 'competition illegal, boo hoo' around here.
>
Well I've got the site for you, boyo!
http://www.thingamababy.com/baby/2006/03/why_bounce_your.html
-B
Topo Gigio
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:4e82e3F...@individual.net...
> As we grow older our outlook on things tend to change. There is tons of
> stuff that I used to think about martial arts that I now shake my head at.
> Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
Little Grasshopper as you grow further you will be ashamed of this post.
Topo Gigio
<antipodean....@FAKEgmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ptt72dnp2v7oskq4...@4ax.com...
> *whistles innocently and hides I <3 Jean Claude Van Damme sprakly
> underwear*
What does <3 mean? Is it a wrestler on his side offering his anus?
Rabid Weasel
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:39:20 GMT, Rabid Weasel
> <lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Doesn't happen much at my level.
>
> Aw - they're nice to Ned. Sweet of em. Bless :P
Yeah. They're nice to clueless newbs like me. <evil grin>
On the other hand, the browns are all young fit and happy to go as intense
as an old fart like me will push it.
> I'll have to videotape 'teh traktor turnover' for you. It's mean :)
You'd do that for *me*? <sniff>
> I'm seriously considering adding a day or two of aikido back in the mix.
> Firstly I miss it. Secondly, my throws have become too 'muscular' and I
> can't get away with brute force much longer. And thirdly, I'd like to
> make my ukemi even better.
Aikido is *definitely* good for ukemi. Balance, timing, no-strength tech,
etc. It's all good stuff. But at this stage of the game, I'm *convinced*
that it's stuff that should be *added* to a good base (like Judo - *glug
glug*) to enhance your game. It's, ime, not nearly as good as a starting
point. You can do it, if you've got the right combination of luck,
instruction, and location, but it's sub-optimal. IMO.
> Dunno - after the beating I get at judo, maybe some nice, crunchy
> granola, hippy aikkikai stuff would serve as a days' active rest?
Usually nice folks in Aikido. Sometimes arrogant and over-inflated
blow-hards but those are everywhere (I haven't found them yet in Judo, but
they must be there *somewhere*, right?).
> (dang it. And I just found a Kali place that trains on nights I dont do
> judo :S. More hours in the day and more days in the week, please)
If I had a way...
>>The head instructor has a LEO background so he's fond of tossing in a
>>smidge of SD from time to time as well.
>
> Sounds like a fabbo place. Congrats!
I'm very happy with this club.
Very.
> One of the sweetest things is a instructor who doesn't mind you doing
> knee rides. I try to sneak in a few every now and again, but they're
> pretty 'competition illegal, boo hoo' around here.
Yeah, that's one of the things I like 'bout this club. They're not afraid
to spend the majority of time on "competition" but won't hesitate to stray
into (and stay for a while) things like *Classic* Judo (as in pre-50's
iirc), SD, non-Judo Grappling, etc.
Badger North
<fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>As we grow older our outlook on things tend to change. There is tons of
>stuff that I used to think about martial arts that I now shake my head at.
>Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
Thinking that chambering a punch was the *only* way to punch
The TKD I was learning was geared towards self-defence
Being taken down by a grappler meant I needed to train my striking
more
Chi
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Every fighter's got a plan until they get hit in the mouth." - Mike Tyson
Neil Gendzwill
> Usually nice folks in Aikido. Sometimes arrogant and over-inflated
> blow-hards but those are everywhere (I haven't found them yet in Judo, but
> they must be there *somewhere*, right?).
I've got one, can I ship him to you?
Neil
Rabid Weasel
Sure.
Box him up. Label: "MA Jerk - to be opened Spring 2032"
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
'We are not amused' - Queen Victoria
(seriously - wtf? Why would anyone buy such an atrocity?)
Badger_s<Badger_s@south.com
wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:58:12 -0400, Badger_s<Badg...@south.com wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:49:36 GMT, antipodean....@FAKEgmail.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>One of the sweetest things is a instructor who doesn't mind you doing
>>>knee rides. I try to sneak in a few every now and again, but they're
>>>pretty 'competition illegal, boo hoo' around here.
>>>
>>
>>Well I've got the site for you, boyo!
>>
>>http://www.thingamababy.com/baby/2006/03/why_bounce_your.html
>>
>>-B
>
>'We are not amused' - Queen Victoria
>
>(seriously - wtf? Why would anyone buy such an atrocity?)
OK, now you got me re-checking the link to see what you mean by atrocity.
Yep it's a plushy po-knee. ;-D
Perhaps it brought back repressed memories of that time at the betting
track. Sorry 'bout that, mate. ;-/
-B
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
>OK, now you got me re-checking the link to see what you mean by atrocity.
>
>Yep it's a plushy po-knee. ;-D
Lost in translation I guess....
>Perhaps it brought back repressed memories of that time at the betting
>track. Sorry 'bout that, mate. ;-/
Nah - I was always a fan of the dish lickers (dogs). More fun.
Fraser Johnston
<antipodean....@FAKEgmail.com> wrote in message
news:fbut729h5ivcgahor...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:08:13 GMT, Rabid Weasel
> <lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote:
>
>
>>OK, yeah. I forgot "safe falling." I'm literally *years* ahead in Ukemi.
>>It does, in a *small* way, help me play Judo better. I can be more
>>aggressive in randori and have pretty much *no* concern whatsoever that
>>I'll be injured from a bad fall.
>
> Clearly, you've not met 'Teh Tracktor' and 'Teh BullDozer' from my
> club :)
>
> Google the net for 'spear tackle' - they're *big* fans of that one ;)
Tomoe Nage them.
Fraser
Badger_s<Badger_s@south.com
wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 16:40:41 -0400, Badger_s<Badg...@south.com wrote:
>
>>OK, now you got me re-checking the link to see what you mean by atrocity.
>>
>>Yep it's a plushy po-knee. ;-D
>
>Lost in translation I guess....
Actually just googled for knee ride and posted the first link. Thought
you'd at least get a kick out of the PBR - "Bull Knee - 8 seconds on your
knee builds a lifetime [of] memories", lol
>>Perhaps it brought back repressed memories of that time at the betting
>>track. Sorry 'bout that, mate. ;-/
>
>Nah - I was always a fan of the dish lickers (dogs). More fun.
OK, no more teasing. ;-p
-B
antipodean....@fakegmail.com
<fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>> Clearly, you've not met 'Teh Tracktor' and 'Teh BullDozer' from my
>> club :)
>>
>> Google the net for 'spear tackle' - they're *big* fans of that one ;)
>
>Tomoe Nage them.
>
>Fraser
You're welcome to try :)
Gernot Hassenpflug
> As we grow older our outlook on things tend to change. There is tons of
> stuff that I used to think about martial arts that I now shake my head at.
> Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
Funny stuff :-) I wonder if there is a subtle UK-based background
(colonial heritage?) that tends to give us similar assumptions...
> That because an art was Japanese it was generally better.
Yeahm yeah, yeah, I remember!!! Us karate blokes would laugh and joke
about those dumbasses doing wing chun shit and koong fooo...
> Chambering punches at the hip was a good idea.
There is no other, mate :-) But snapping backfist rules (especially
with a spin).
> Boxers would be easy to beat on the street because you could just kick them.
yes, and same with knife fighters (TM).
> Punching air for an hour taught you how to fight.
Yeah yeah: 3-step moving up and down the dojo, looong stances, good kiai.
> Aikido is unstoppable and the king of all martial-arts.
I left karate for aikido. Oh boy, until the rude awakening came along....LOL
Additions:
- backfist, straight punch, front kick is THE BEST for real life.
- No, I correct myself: wrist locks rule.
- relaxed posture means using only enough muscle to not fall over in a
gust of the opponent's laughter.
- antagonism is BAD, martial arts are about peace and love.
- if your partner doesn't fall, s/he doesn't understand the meaning of
the technique (which now of course has to be EXPLAINED in GREAT
DETAIL).
Good thread!!!
Cheers,
Gernot
PS: we look back and laugh, and at that time we should look with
humility at our current practice :-) Yesterday at practice, with the
"new wisdom" of structure behind me, I replied to two beginners asking
me "can you teach us the 13 techniques against a ushiro-ryote-dori
attack please (for our grading in a few months)?", "Well, no, I don't
have time right now, but I can show you what you can do so that you
don't fall over when the partner grabs your first arm" and then got
them to do a fairly good impression of standing upright, something
that generally goes out the window during the techniques because
nobodsy frigging emphasizes posture anymore <sigh> I don't do BJJ
right now, but I agree with the "attributes -> structure -> platform
and positioning -> maaaaybe do a technique from there if required (or
change positioning etc.)" thing 100%+.
--
Gernot Hassenpflug (ger...@rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp) Tel: +81 774 38-3866
JSPS Fellow (Rm.403, RISH, Kyoto Uni.) Fax: +81 774 31-8463
www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/radar-group/members/gernot Mob: +81 90 39493924
Gernot Hassenpflug
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:46:44 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
> <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote:
>>Hakamas are a good idea.
>
> I kinda like em, truth be told. The look groovy, but are probably just
> fucking annoying?
>
> You've worn em more than I have, so maybe you can refute the whole "it
> makes your footwork better" myth?
I can tell you it improves your footwork and your ukemi :-)
Ray
> That because an art was Japanese it was generally better.
Muscular guys are slow and gas easily and I can beat them with my
karate chop.
If you learn tai chi since 20 by the time you're 60 you can beat Mike
Tyson, Rickson Gracie, and Mirko Cro Cop at their prime. At the same
time.
Judo is lame, TKD rules.
Nobody can beat someone who can do an aerial triple kick.
When I cannot perform some moves from my kata in alive situation, it's
because I haven't internalized it well enough.
> Fraser
felix isp iinet
: As we grow older our outlook on things tend to change. There is tons of
: Here are some of my favorites that I'm now ashamed of:-
That the palm, elbow and web between the thumb and forefinger were
unbreakable and should therefore be used for all attacks.
That Eastern swordsmanship was inherently better in every way than
western.
Western sword makers never knew how to fold metal.
--
Today is Pungenday, the 7th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3172
Felixmeister - Touched by his Noodly Appendage
"I'm a f---ing starship I'm allowed to cheat"
"Vorlon t'vut'na chog!"
Rabid Weasel
> That Eastern swordsmanship was inherently better in every way than
> western.
>
> Western sword makers never knew how to fold metal.
You're my new "favorite poster."
Chas
>> Western sword makers never knew how to fold metal.
> You're my new "favorite poster."
Even more fun is to tell the nipponophiles that it was westerners that
taught them how to do it in the first place.
They never did catch on about oil-tempering though
bwhahahahahaha!
--
Chas
It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>>> Western sword makers never knew how to fold metal.
>> You're my new "favorite poster."
>
> Even more fun is to tell the nipponophiles that it was westerners that
> taught them how to do it in the first place.
Not fun for me. They don't tend to get all defensive usually, just
completely dismiss the idea.
> They never did catch on about oil-tempering though
> bwhahahahahaha!
Yeah. The clay seems to work pretty well for them though, even if it is 4
times as complicated. To be honest, the more complicated the more proud
of it they seem to be.
Chas
>> Even more fun is to tell the nipponophiles that it was westerners that
>> taught them how to do it in the first place.
> Not fun for me. They don't tend to get all defensive usually, just
> completely dismiss the idea.
Then you just shove the historical record down their throats-
Academic Triumph!!
> Yeah. The clay seems to work pretty well for them though, even if it is 4
> times as complicated. To be honest, the more complicated the more proud
> of it they seem to be.
Nothing they do approaches the complexity practiced by a number of other
cultures- nihonto have to be judged by their own standards rather than
comparison to other sophisticated metalworking techniques.
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>>> Even more fun is to tell the nipponophiles that it was westerners that
>>> taught them how to do it in the first place.
>> Not fun for me. They don't tend to get all defensive usually, just
>> completely dismiss the idea.
>
> Then you just shove the historical record down their throats-
> Academic Triumph!!
They just stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la I can't hear
you."
>> Yeah. The clay seems to work pretty well for them though, even if it is 4
>> times as complicated. To be honest, the more complicated the more proud
>> of it they seem to be.
>
> Nothing they do approaches the complexity practiced by a number of other
> cultures- nihonto have to be judged by their own standards rather than
> comparison to other sophisticated metalworking techniques.
I dunno. Some of these still seem overly complex, particularly when
proper heat-treating is more than sufficient to deal with the things that
these designs are supposed to be dealing with. And that's before we start
griping about carbon migration, etc.
Chas
>.....Some of these still seem overly complex, particularly when
> proper heat-treating is more than sufficient to deal with the things that
> these designs are supposed to be dealing with. And that's before we start
> griping about carbon migration, etc.
No one, at that time, could produce a billet of consistent steel- they had
to be assembled from little pieces of steel of varying quality. We actually
didn't solve that problem until well into the nineteenth century.
Veg oil isn't a good quenching medium; animal fats were ritually unclean to
Shinto smiths; 'petroleum/mineral' oils were uncommon- there never was much
of an impetus to change heat-treating methods.
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>>.....Some of these still seem overly complex, particularly when
>> proper heat-treating is more than sufficient to deal with the things that
>> these designs are supposed to be dealing with. And that's before we start
>> griping about carbon migration, etc.
>
> No one, at that time, could produce a billet of consistent steel-
Sure they could. They were doing so in China, Damascus, Italy, and Spain.
Or, when you're saying "no one," are you specifying *Japanese*? That'd
I'd believe. IIRC, their native steels sucked and they *loved* the
imported steels.
> they had
> to be assembled from little pieces of steel of varying quality. We actually
> didn't solve that problem until well into the nineteenth century.
Except for in China, Damascus, etc.
> Veg oil isn't a good quenching medium; animal fats were ritually unclean to
> Shinto smiths; 'petroleum/mineral' oils were uncommon- there never was much
> of an impetus to change heat-treating methods.
I can well believe that one single culture (the Japanese in this case) may
not have.
Chas
>> No one, at that time, could produce a billet of consistent steel-
> Sure they could. They were doing so in China, Damascus, Italy, and Spain.
I'm talking about 700 AD, when are you talking about?
> Or, when you're saying "no one," are you specifying *Japanese*? That'd
> I'd believe. IIRC, their native steels sucked and they *loved* the
> imported steels.
Yeah- the imported stuff captured their attention 500 years ago.
We actually
>> didn't solve that problem until well into the nineteenth century.
> Except for in China, Damascus, etc.
nope.
Chas
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>>> No one, at that time, could produce a billet of consistent steel-
>> Sure they could. They were doing so in China, Damascus, Italy, and Spain.
>
> I'm talking about 700 AD, when are you talking about?
...
> We actually
>>> didn't solve that problem until well into the nineteenth century.
>> Except for in China, Damascus, etc.
>
> nope.
Oh c'mon now. The Romans were making high quality steel swords for their
Officers and stabbing Joseph's cousins with them. The Chinese were making
pure iron and case-hardening it at like 700 *BC* or something. The
eastern and mid-east traders (like India and Damascus) were making
high-quality crucible steel in billets large enough for swords between 300
and 1000 AD or so.
I can accept that the Japanese hadn't quite figured out how to get
sword-sized billets of high-quality, highly-consistent steel (iirc, those
large blocks of tamahange were very *inconsistent*). But that doesn't
mean no one else was.
Chas
> Oh c'mon now. The Romans were making high quality steel swords for their
> Officers and stabbing Joseph's cousins with them.
Yes- the high carbon tool steel was collected in flakes and forged welded
together with wrought iron- they couldn't produce a reliable billet of tool
steel.
> The Chinese were making
> pure iron and case-hardening it at like 700 *BC* or something.
Yes; wrought iron is not tool steel.
The
> eastern and mid-east traders (like India and Damascus) were making
> high-quality crucible steel in billets large enough for swords between 300
> and 1000 AD or so.
Yes; both 'wootz' and pattern weld are composite steels, not high carbon
tool steels.
Wootz is a sponge billet of iron invested with steel that has properties
similar to poor tool steel.
> I can accept that the Japanese hadn't quite figured out how to get
> sword-sized billets of high-quality, highly-consistent steel (iirc, those
> large blocks of tamahange were very *inconsistent*). But that doesn't
> mean no one else was.
Yeah- it's the whole reason that good tool steel became available in
quantity at all-
It's the smelting process itself- congruently, the access to reliable spring
steel for things like clocks and firearms became available for the first
time. That's the huge leap in 'timepieces' that made nautical chronographs a
reality as well.
Gernot Hassenpflug
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>>> Even more fun is to tell the nipponophiles that it was westerners that
>>> taught them how to do it in the first place.
>> Not fun for me. They don't tend to get all defensive usually, just
>> completely dismiss the idea.
>
> Then you just shove the historical record down their throats-
> Academic Triumph!!
>
>> Yeah. The clay seems to work pretty well for them though, even if it is 4
>> times as complicated. To be honest, the more complicated the more proud
>> of it they seem to be.
>
> Nothing they do approaches the complexity practiced by a number of other
> cultures- nihonto have to be judged by their own standards rather than
> comparison to other sophisticated metalworking techniques.
Yeah, I guess the human element and ritual as part of their culture is
the most important element. Oh, and if oyu don't get it, then "you
don't understand us" LOL (like Yasukuni shrine and other little
details, hehe)
BURKE THE BOLD
I wouldn't know about it being "shameful" but the silliest thing I ever
thought, as far as the martial arts were concerned, was that anyone who
earned a black belt would become some sort of superman who could never
be taken by surprise, never "sucker punched", never get hit in a fight.
Or so the comic book advertisements said!
.
Chas
> I wouldn't know about it being "shameful" but the silliest thing I ever
> thought, as far as the martial arts were concerned, was that anyone who
> earned a black belt would become some sort of superman who could never
> be taken by surprise, never "sucker punched", never get hit in a fight.
They were only one letter off.
It's spelled 'could'.
Charlie
wrote:
I was taught that sparring was bad - it instilled false confidence and
bad habits, because of 'all the rules' - on the street, anything goes.
Rabid Weasel
> "Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net> wrote
>> Oh c'mon now. The Romans were making high quality steel swords for their
>> Officers and stabbing Joseph's cousins with them.
>
> Yes- the high carbon tool steel was collected in flakes and forged welded
> together with wrought iron- they couldn't produce a reliable billet of tool
> steel.
No. It was forged from billets of quality steel and hammer purified, as
necessary.
>> The Chinese were making
>> pure iron and case-hardening it at like 700 *BC* or something.
>
> Yes; wrought iron is not tool steel.
And by 1400 years later, 700 AD, they'd greatly refined the process and
had high quality steel... for people who could afford it.
> The
>> eastern and mid-east traders (like India and Damascus) were making
>> high-quality crucible steel in billets large enough for swords between 300
>> and 1000 AD or so.
>
> Yes; both 'wootz' and pattern weld are composite steels, not high carbon
> tool steels.
> Wootz is a sponge billet of iron invested with steel that has properties
> similar to poor tool steel.
No way. Positively not. Wootz is a high-carbon crucible steel. The
"watering" in wootz comes from long chains of *carbides*.