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Western Martial Arts - Review of the 9th Annual Cumann Bhata Recreational Violence Weekend
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Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 5, 2013, 2:11:08 PM6/5/13
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Review of the 9th Annual Cumann Bhata Recreational Violence Weekend:
Very small this year, by design. Ken probably should have canceled
due to the fact that his wife, Shannon is more than just a little
pregnant. Shannon, for her part, was, as always, the consummate
hostess and insisted on cooking meals for the instructors and what
guests chose to meet at her home after hours in the evenings. I’m
glad that Ken did not cancel but I still feel a little guilty.
Friday Evening:
Silver’s Universal System – Randal Gustitis
Randal presented his interpretation of Silver’s system. It was a
little bit different from most of what I’ve seen before related to
Silver, but I liked it. Worked us through several drills and
concepts. The most important seemed to be how to attain range safely
coupled with Silver’s admonition to “Fly in and fly out” safely.
Saturday:
Russian All Around Fisticuffs – Ken Pfrenger
Ken taught an introduction to Russian All Around Fisticuffs. This
system is more or less modern but draws heavily from earlier western
boxing traditions. Ken’s class focused on less common blows, unusual
to many modern boxers, including the Rounding Blow, a variation of the
Back Fist, the Hammerfist style Chopper, and even a Pivot Blow.
Montante Sword – Randal Gustitis
This is Randal’s take on the Montante system. It’s a bit different
from the first time I saw the system which, at the time, featured very
small, halting almost, footwork. This had nearly expansive footwork
and it made a great deal of sense within the context of Randal’s
interpretation of the weapon as a space domination tool more than a
fencing tool. Randal warned us that our brains might hurt but I think
I managed to keep from spraining a lobe and got the general idea of
the Basic Play he presented (sort of like a Kata). I’m sure the
“Composed” (advanced and more complicated) would have been much more
challenging. As it was it took half the class before it really
started to click but then it went fairly smooth. Being able to
perform the Play correctly upon command, without major errors, escaped
me then, and still does. Nevertheless, I like this system.
Sgian Dubh Treachery – Chris Thompson
Chris Thompson, noted author of both fiction and martial arts manuals
as well as founder of the Cateran Society, dedicated to historic
Scottish Martial Arts, presented sneaky stealth techniques for using
the traditional small “black knife” of the Scots. Techniques included
deploying and applying the knife after the knife-owner’s primary hand
was captured while reaching for his Broadsword, deploying the knife
while preventing his opponent from accessing the broadsword, and
straight up assassination. The first two variations of these,
deploying the knife while the primary hand is being prevented from
accessing the primary weapon, seemed particularly applicable to both
modern LEO and modern military. The part about assassination, well…
My son, Christopher, took this class with me. I think he liked the
assassination part best. My kidney is still a little bit sore.
Test Cutting for the Western Martial Artist – Kirk Lawson
It’s exactly what it sounds like. We cut up a bunch of stuff. Why?
Several very important martial artsy reasons such as testing the blade
and improving technique but also just for fun. We used various media,
each with their own trade-offs in what they could tell us, and
culminated with test cutting meat. Lots of weapons abouned. Viking
Longsword, Machete, Bowie Knives, Spears, Tomahawks, Sabers, a euro
Longsword, pocket knives, even a Rapier! This class, by far, took the
longest due to safety measures, shear number of targets, and that it
was just a lot of fun sampling various weapons to see how they
perform. We even draped common blue jeans material over the media
(including the meat) to simulate heavy clothing. Many participants
came away with a new respect for the durability of blue jeans.
Sunday:
Classic Pugilism as a Physical Culture System – Kirk Lawson
The point of this class was the illustrate how the foundation of
classic pugilism could be applied as a mechanism for improving
Flexibility, Strength, and Cardio endurance. Much of the concepts
were taken from Bob Spraley’s “Juido” system. Drills included partner-
resistant throws and active entries to technique. Everyone had a good
time but you can put a lot of effort into doing these so it’s hard to
do them “right” with full intention and not get worn out.
Footpad and the Cane – Ken Pfrenger
Ken presented his interpretation of the Irish Cane system documented
in an early, unattributed, magazine article. It is a simple and very
straight forward system. Quite direct. The author apparently really
believed in the K.I.S.S. Principle and it showed. This system was
obviously intended for Self Defense as was illustrated by such
techniques as the ferule stabs to the head.
Thi-Bowie – Randal Gustitis
Randal Gustitus presented his work on interpreting Girard Thibault's
Spanish Circle method to the Bowie Knife. This was very intriguing.
The method works on a very deep psychological level and forces actions
from the opponent in a way that I would not have expected. While it
is clearly from the same Spanish lineage as the other Destreza systems
I’ve seen, it had a unique flavor and, when applied to the Bowie
knife, made a very effective, yet simple system. I think, however,
that I squandered my “don’t sprain your brain” get out of jail free
cards on the previous day’s Montante work. While the system is simple
in concept, I didn’t *quite* get the footwork or coming to measure to
click as well as I really wanted. It may be because I volunteered to
be crash-test-dummy, the stabbie, and there are certain elements of
the system that, when applied properly (or even with a steel blunt &
fencing mask) can absolutely make your anus clench and trigger adrenal
dump. Let me reiterate, this is VERY GOOD STUFF. I think I’m gonna
have to spend some quality time getting to know Mr. Girard Thibault
better, corresponding with my friend Randal, and maybe even drag him
out local for training.
Broadsword Sparring Tactics – Chris Thompson
In this class, Chris Thompson demonstrated 7 discrete strategies for
winning Broadsword fights. Not just Singlestick matches, mind you,
but Broadsword fighting strategies, as opposed to simply going into
the fight with no plan on how to win. These strategies, represented
each by a mnemonic “word,” ranged from “waiting” through “baiting”
past “pressure” and into “simplify” (if I managed to remember those
words right). Each element represented a valid strategy, building
upon and complimenting each other to give the fencer a way to “have a
plan” upon entering his fight. As we know “those who fail to plan,
plan to fail” and this class prepared you to have a definite plan!
Again, my son Christopher paired with me and had a great time whacking
my ribs, head, and arm within the context of whatever “word” we
happened to be in at the time. No disrespect to the Beatles, but, at
least this time out, Happiness was a stout sword, not a warm gun. :)
We are planning on having a 10th Anniversary blowout next year with a
“best of the best” representation of classes so plan to come!
Very small this year, by design. Ken probably should have canceled
due to the fact that his wife, Shannon is more than just a little
pregnant. Shannon, for her part, was, as always, the consummate
hostess and insisted on cooking meals for the instructors and what
guests chose to meet at her home after hours in the evenings. I’m
glad that Ken did not cancel but I still feel a little guilty.
Friday Evening:
Silver’s Universal System – Randal Gustitis
Randal presented his interpretation of Silver’s system. It was a
little bit different from most of what I’ve seen before related to
Silver, but I liked it. Worked us through several drills and
concepts. The most important seemed to be how to attain range safely
coupled with Silver’s admonition to “Fly in and fly out” safely.
Saturday:
Russian All Around Fisticuffs – Ken Pfrenger
Ken taught an introduction to Russian All Around Fisticuffs. This
system is more or less modern but draws heavily from earlier western
boxing traditions. Ken’s class focused on less common blows, unusual
to many modern boxers, including the Rounding Blow, a variation of the
Back Fist, the Hammerfist style Chopper, and even a Pivot Blow.
Montante Sword – Randal Gustitis
This is Randal’s take on the Montante system. It’s a bit different
from the first time I saw the system which, at the time, featured very
small, halting almost, footwork. This had nearly expansive footwork
and it made a great deal of sense within the context of Randal’s
interpretation of the weapon as a space domination tool more than a
fencing tool. Randal warned us that our brains might hurt but I think
I managed to keep from spraining a lobe and got the general idea of
the Basic Play he presented (sort of like a Kata). I’m sure the
“Composed” (advanced and more complicated) would have been much more
challenging. As it was it took half the class before it really
started to click but then it went fairly smooth. Being able to
perform the Play correctly upon command, without major errors, escaped
me then, and still does. Nevertheless, I like this system.
Sgian Dubh Treachery – Chris Thompson
Chris Thompson, noted author of both fiction and martial arts manuals
as well as founder of the Cateran Society, dedicated to historic
Scottish Martial Arts, presented sneaky stealth techniques for using
the traditional small “black knife” of the Scots. Techniques included
deploying and applying the knife after the knife-owner’s primary hand
was captured while reaching for his Broadsword, deploying the knife
while preventing his opponent from accessing the broadsword, and
straight up assassination. The first two variations of these,
deploying the knife while the primary hand is being prevented from
accessing the primary weapon, seemed particularly applicable to both
modern LEO and modern military. The part about assassination, well…
My son, Christopher, took this class with me. I think he liked the
assassination part best. My kidney is still a little bit sore.
Test Cutting for the Western Martial Artist – Kirk Lawson
It’s exactly what it sounds like. We cut up a bunch of stuff. Why?
Several very important martial artsy reasons such as testing the blade
and improving technique but also just for fun. We used various media,
each with their own trade-offs in what they could tell us, and
culminated with test cutting meat. Lots of weapons abouned. Viking
Longsword, Machete, Bowie Knives, Spears, Tomahawks, Sabers, a euro
Longsword, pocket knives, even a Rapier! This class, by far, took the
longest due to safety measures, shear number of targets, and that it
was just a lot of fun sampling various weapons to see how they
perform. We even draped common blue jeans material over the media
(including the meat) to simulate heavy clothing. Many participants
came away with a new respect for the durability of blue jeans.
Sunday:
Classic Pugilism as a Physical Culture System – Kirk Lawson
The point of this class was the illustrate how the foundation of
classic pugilism could be applied as a mechanism for improving
Flexibility, Strength, and Cardio endurance. Much of the concepts
were taken from Bob Spraley’s “Juido” system. Drills included partner-
resistant throws and active entries to technique. Everyone had a good
time but you can put a lot of effort into doing these so it’s hard to
do them “right” with full intention and not get worn out.
Footpad and the Cane – Ken Pfrenger
Ken presented his interpretation of the Irish Cane system documented
in an early, unattributed, magazine article. It is a simple and very
straight forward system. Quite direct. The author apparently really
believed in the K.I.S.S. Principle and it showed. This system was
obviously intended for Self Defense as was illustrated by such
techniques as the ferule stabs to the head.
Thi-Bowie – Randal Gustitis
Randal Gustitus presented his work on interpreting Girard Thibault's
Spanish Circle method to the Bowie Knife. This was very intriguing.
The method works on a very deep psychological level and forces actions
from the opponent in a way that I would not have expected. While it
is clearly from the same Spanish lineage as the other Destreza systems
I’ve seen, it had a unique flavor and, when applied to the Bowie
knife, made a very effective, yet simple system. I think, however,
that I squandered my “don’t sprain your brain” get out of jail free
cards on the previous day’s Montante work. While the system is simple
in concept, I didn’t *quite* get the footwork or coming to measure to
click as well as I really wanted. It may be because I volunteered to
be crash-test-dummy, the stabbie, and there are certain elements of
the system that, when applied properly (or even with a steel blunt &
fencing mask) can absolutely make your anus clench and trigger adrenal
dump. Let me reiterate, this is VERY GOOD STUFF. I think I’m gonna
have to spend some quality time getting to know Mr. Girard Thibault
better, corresponding with my friend Randal, and maybe even drag him
out local for training.
Broadsword Sparring Tactics – Chris Thompson
In this class, Chris Thompson demonstrated 7 discrete strategies for
winning Broadsword fights. Not just Singlestick matches, mind you,
but Broadsword fighting strategies, as opposed to simply going into
the fight with no plan on how to win. These strategies, represented
each by a mnemonic “word,” ranged from “waiting” through “baiting”
past “pressure” and into “simplify” (if I managed to remember those
words right). Each element represented a valid strategy, building
upon and complimenting each other to give the fencer a way to “have a
plan” upon entering his fight. As we know “those who fail to plan,
plan to fail” and this class prepared you to have a definite plan!
Again, my son Christopher paired with me and had a great time whacking
my ribs, head, and arm within the context of whatever “word” we
happened to be in at the time. No disrespect to the Beatles, but, at
least this time out, Happiness was a stout sword, not a warm gun. :)
We are planning on having a 10th Anniversary blowout next year with a
“best of the best” representation of classes so plan to come!
Timo
Jun 5, 2013, 4:48:56 PM6/5/13
to
On Thursday, June 6, 2013 4:11:08 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
>
> Montante Sword – Randal Gustitis
> This is Randal’s take on the Montante system. It’s a bit different
> from the first time I saw the system which, at the time, featured very
> small, halting almost, footwork. This had nearly expansive footwork
> and it made a great deal of sense within the context of Randal’s
> interpretation of the weapon as a space domination tool more than a
> fencing tool. Randal warned us that our brains might hurt but I think
> I managed to keep from spraining a lobe and got the general idea of
> the Basic Play he presented (sort of like a Kata). I’m sure the
> “Composed” (advanced and more complicated) would have been much more
> challenging. As it was it took half the class before it really
> started to click but then it went fairly smooth. Being able to
> perform the Play correctly upon command, without major errors, escaped
> me then, and still does. Nevertheless, I like this system.
Figueyredo?
>
> Montante Sword – Randal Gustitis
> This is Randal’s take on the Montante system. It’s a bit different
> from the first time I saw the system which, at the time, featured very
> small, halting almost, footwork. This had nearly expansive footwork
> and it made a great deal of sense within the context of Randal’s
> interpretation of the weapon as a space domination tool more than a
> fencing tool. Randal warned us that our brains might hurt but I think
> I managed to keep from spraining a lobe and got the general idea of
> the Basic Play he presented (sort of like a Kata). I’m sure the
> “Composed” (advanced and more complicated) would have been much more
> challenging. As it was it took half the class before it really
> started to click but then it went fairly smooth. Being able to
> perform the Play correctly upon command, without major errors, escaped
> me then, and still does. Nevertheless, I like this system.
Montante (and relatives) is a very cool weapon. I like it a lot. It's no place for small footwork - you need to dance with your sword, and that takes real movement.
The hard part is making safe sparring simulators for montante. I think that it is important to keep sufficient weight, to force you to dance with the sword and not just wave it around. IME, about 2kg is good for this (maybe 1.8 or 1.9kg is the cut-off where I can't move it well enough with arms alone, where I need to use my whole body). At which point one needs to consider the effect of a 2kg sparring simulator moving at speed.
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 6, 2013, 8:08:32 AM6/6/13
to
sticks. They're lighter but the system has some similarities.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Timo
Jun 6, 2013, 11:29:47 PM6/6/13
to
Stick works OK for forms and some drills. The context encourages proper technique. For sparring, competitiveness can encourage people to ditch proper technique in favour of hitting the other person. Weight to force proper technique is good then.
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 7, 2013, 8:19:41 AM6/7/13
to
On Jun 6, 11:29 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> On Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:08:32 PM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 4:48 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > > The hard part is making safe sparring simulators for montante. I think that it is important to keep sufficient weight, to force you to dance with the sword and not just wave it around. IME, about 2kg is good for this (maybe 1.8 or 1.9kg is the cut-off where I can't move it well enough with arms alone, where I need to use my whole body). At which point one needs to consider the effect of a 2kg sparring simulator moving at speed.
>
> > We didn't have near enough sims and ended up using Jogo do Pau
> > sticks. They're lighter but the system has some similarities.
>
> Father-and-son similarity, or at least uncle-and-nephew.
That is certainly supported by the oral history of Jogo do Pau. They
> On Thursday, June 6, 2013 10:08:32 PM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > On Jun 5, 4:48 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > > The hard part is making safe sparring simulators for montante. I think that it is important to keep sufficient weight, to force you to dance with the sword and not just wave it around. IME, about 2kg is good for this (maybe 1.8 or 1.9kg is the cut-off where I can't move it well enough with arms alone, where I need to use my whole body). At which point one needs to consider the effect of a 2kg sparring simulator moving at speed.
>
> > We didn't have near enough sims and ended up using Jogo do Pau
> > sticks. They're lighter but the system has some similarities.
>
> Father-and-son similarity, or at least uncle-and-nephew.
claim (so I am told) it is a peasant interpretation of knightly sword
and spear arts. The primary difference being that the aristocrats
could afford to use swords while the rest of the world used the more
available sticks.
> What sims were used?
Last year there were some Steel available. I know that Randal had
some other stuff but he didn't put them out for use and I didn't ask
to see them. We used Jogo do Pau sticks for the most part. I forget
off the top of my head what the traditional wood is but I was holding
a 5' length of heavy rattan.
> Stick works OK for forms and some drills. The context encourages proper technique.
cases, where the stick is intended to be a stand-in for a blade, it is
up to the person to be aware of edge orientation and body mechanics.
> For sparring, competitiveness can encourage people to ditch proper technique in favour of hitting the other person. Weight to force proper technique is good then.
they choose to ignore body mechanics and edge alignment, that's not
the fault of the equipment.
Mighty Wannabe
Jun 7, 2013, 11:14:12 AM6/7/13
to
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 7, 2013, 12:29:39 PM6/7/13
to
(IH)
Timo
Jun 7, 2013, 5:09:45 PM6/7/13
to
Why use equipment at all? Why not just pretend the weapons are there? The students should be able to judge where the weapon "is", and when they are hit. The equipment provides feedback to the student as to where the weapon is, and makes it obvious when they are hit. Thus, even if they are being distracted (e.g., by their own attempt to hit their opponent), they get that feedback and know they have been hit.
A weapon of proper weight instead of an ultra-light weapon gives proper biomechanical feedback, which the student _cannot_ ignore even when paying attention to hitting and not being hit.
It isn't _nesessary_, but I think it's good. Drilling with a full-weight weapon (which doesn't need to be sparring safe) is good. Switching from such to sparring with a light safe simulator is OK, the good habits from the drill will persist in sparring (with some, but not an unreasonable level of, discipline). But a full-weight simulator just does not allow unrealistic biomechanics. So what's not to like? It's only questions of safety, cost, and availability that drive the use of anything other than full-weight trainers.
You could train Highland broadsword with fencing foils. But would you?
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 10, 2013, 11:37:58 AM6/10/13
to
Timo
Jun 10, 2013, 6:56:41 PM6/10/13
to
Secondly, I don't think the conclusion is any more absurd than the starting point. A montante length stick weighs about 1.5lbs, so about 3-4 times lighter than a montante. A fencing foil weighs about 1lb, about 3-4 times lighter than a basket-hilt broadsword. Representing such heavier weapons, both would be ultralight simulators. If, for montante, it would be the students'/teacher's fault if they don't use proper biomechanics as needed for the weight of the weapon, why would this be any different for broadsword?
If students can, via discipline, stick to correct technique for montante done with a stick, why can't students, via discipline, stick to correct technique for broadsword done with foil?
If there are major deficiencies in using a foil for learning broadsword, why don't the same major deficiencies apply to stick and montante?
Rabid Weasel Lawson
Jun 11, 2013, 10:35:46 AM6/11/13
to
On Jun 10, 6:56 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:37:58 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 5:09 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > > You could train Highland broadsword with fencing foils. But would you?
>
> > Reductio ad absurdum
>
> Firstly, if it is, what of it? Reductio ad absurdum being a valid form of argument, rather than a logical fallacy, this would be a good thing.
What? No, it is a Fallacy, not an argument. That's where the
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:37:58 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 5:09 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > > You could train Highland broadsword with fencing foils. But would you?
>
> > Reductio ad absurdum
>
> Firstly, if it is, what of it? Reductio ad absurdum being a valid form of argument, rather than a logical fallacy, this would be a good thing.
"absurd" part comes in. Which is what your argument here is: Absurd.
It's not "the logical conclusion" is silliness.
Timo
Jun 11, 2013, 5:27:50 PM6/11/13
to
On Wednesday, June 12, 2013 12:35:46 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> On Jun 10, 6:56 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:37:58 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > > On Jun 7, 5:09 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> > > > You could train Highland broadsword with fencing foils. But would you?
> >
> > > Reductio ad absurdum
> >
> > Firstly, if it is, what of it? Reductio ad absurdum being a valid form of argument, rather than a logical fallacy, this would be a good thing.
>
> What? No, it is a Fallacy, not an argument.
Tell that to the mathematicians who use it regularly. (Look it up on Wikipedia if this is new to you. Or learn some mathematical proof. The proof that infinity is not a number is a good start.)
> On Jun 10, 6:56 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:37:58 AM UTC+10, Rabid Weasel Lawson wrote:
> > > On Jun 7, 5:09 pm, Timo <t...@physics.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> > > > You could train Highland broadsword with fencing foils. But would you?
> >
> > > Reductio ad absurdum
> >
> > Firstly, if it is, what of it? Reductio ad absurdum being a valid form of argument, rather than a logical fallacy, this would be a good thing.
>
> What? No, it is a Fallacy, not an argument.
> That's where the
> "absurd" part comes in. Which is what your argument here is: Absurd.
> It's not "the logical conclusion" is silliness.
A montante length stick weighs about 1.5lbs, so about 3-4 times lighter than a montante. A fencing foil weighs about 1lb, about 3-4 times lighter than a basket-hilt broadsword. Representing such heavier weapons, both would be ultralight simulators. If, for montante, it would be the students'/teacher's fault if they don't use proper biomechanics as needed for the weight of the weapon, why would this be any different for broadsword?
If students can, via discipline, stick to correct technique for montante done with a stick, why can't students, via discipline, stick to correct technique for broadsword done with foil?
If there are major deficiencies in using a foil for learning broadsword, why don't the same major deficiencies apply to stick and montante?
You claimed that it's all the students'/teacher's fault if they don't do it properly with the stick. But you don't seem to be able to provide any support for that claim, just cut-and-run. Is there no support?
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