My experience at the Native American Museum in DC
trav...@aol.com
real indian. B/c she's a high-caste, she has a sort of anti-european
kind of bias. So, she wanted to go to the NA museum here, which is in
an absolutely gorgeous, multigazillion $ building. Brand fking new.
So, we get inside. Very impressive structure. Sweeping staircases,
vaulting ceilings, railings, floor, etc.
So, you are wondering, when the fk is he going to talk about the art?
Answer: I'm not, because there fucking WASN'T ANY. Seriously. The
museum is full of plasma TVs but there's hardly any art in it. Why,
you ask? The natives didn't HAVE ANY ART.
Seriously, what is in there are a very few number of artifacts, shit
like canoes, wooden bowls, clothing, fucking fishhooks which are a
couple of stucks wrapped together w/ twine. How ancient are most of
these artifacts, you ask? About dating to around 1900. Yes. 1900.
We made our way thru this overpriced joke of a place, and I was keeping
my mouth shut about whitey, b/c it pisses this girl off. Eventually,
we came upon a room containing a fucking tracked military vehicle.
Even she at this point was like wtf...wtf does a tracked military
vehicle have to do w/ NAs? ZERO.
We get into a different room, I'm thinking, oh this is getting good.
We see a bunch of swords. Now, knowledgeable about history as I am I
was immediately skeptical that these were native american swords. Sure
enough, one had an escription "fabrica Toledo" on it. Yep, Spanish.
All predating the injun technology by 400 years.
This museum also had guns in it, even an Uzi, which, correct me if I'm
wrong, is made in Israel, and not by Native Americans. By FAR the most
impressive artifacts were Spanish, coins and weaponry. There was very
little in the entire museum from natives, excepting a few "art" pieces
that were so primitive that my 6 year old son has literally done
better. That is not a joke, either, nor exaggeration; he has. Many
6-year olds have.
As we left, this girl was TOTALLY turned off by the thing. She said
they should give the museum to the Spaniards and make it about their
history. Another PC multicultural refugee converted by raw fucking
in-your-face reality, eh? Her words, "complete letdown." Most of the
museum is either veiled anti-whitey slights about how we "destroyed"
their asinine ways of life or else it is a dissertation about some
stupid creation myth involving a fucking beetle or how that atonal drum
banging dirt stomping is a form of dance that should be respected like
fucking Shakespeare. There's a lot of writing about how "they believe"
this or that idiotic shit, like anyone should give a fuck just because
somebody believes something. Right, I GOT IT that they'd been doing
these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go ahead
and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases, just
like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
I noticed this was much more receptive after actually SEEING a
manifestation of what I was telling her when we entered, that the NAs
were stone-age savage primitives who lacked writing, technology, art,
even bronze. After we left, hey, let's go to the NASM. I said, here
we have a contrast, native american vs white man technology. 1903 NA =
wooden canoe. 1903 white man = airplane.
In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for your tax dollar
contributions to build a gigantic, gorgeous empty building for injuns
that I can visit and enjoy laughing at the pathetic "cultures" of the
people that we displaced. Fuck 'em.
Trav
GreendistantNOSPAMstar
<trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1164657882.0...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
I always wondered what happened to that little kid in the story of The Emperor's
New Clothes.
Now I know. He grew up and his name is Trav.
--
GDS
" Let's roll! "
Laszlo
GreendistantNOSPAMstar wrote:
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for your tax dollar
> > contributions to build a gigantic, gorgeous empty building for injuns
> > that I can visit and enjoy laughing at the pathetic "cultures" of the
> > people that we displaced. Fuck 'em.
>
> I always wondered what happened to that little kid in the story of The Emperor's
> New Clothes.
>
> Now I know. He grew up and his name is Trav.
Not to suck Trav' dick or anything, but many of his posts are like some
of the
finest university seminars I've been to, the ones where the professor
actually
had a clue about what they were teaching. There's usually less raw
data, but
it's trivial to get that stuff from books or Wikipedia or whatever.
Data is cheap,
the connections--putting things together--are what _matter_.
He should seriously start charging for his Usenet posts.
Laszlo
Fraser Johnston
"Laszlo" <chaos...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164716414....@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Don't encourage him, or we'll never get his head through doorways.
Fraser
h...@nospam.com
<trav...@aol.com> wrote:
>In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for your tax dollar
>contributions to build a gigantic, gorgeous empty building for injuns
>that I can visit and enjoy laughing at the pathetic "cultures" of the
>people that we displaced. Fuck 'em.
>
>Trav
It's hardly worth the effort to respond to a racist piece of shit like
you, but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
difficult for nomadic people to preserve. Art is a luxury, practiced
by people with time on their hands for leisure activities. Nomadic
natives struggling to survive rarely had time for such trivia. People
who had to pack up every season to move to another hunting ground
couldn't carry around a bunch of extra shit. Art did not occur until
the hunter/gatherer settled into villages and developed a market
economy. I wouldn't expect a piece of human refuse like you to
understand that though.
Hal
Wayne Dobson
> of the
> finest university seminars I've been to, the ones where the professor
> actually
> had a clue about what they were teaching.
Trav is smart and much of what he says has a grain of truth to it, though
most of it is skewed.
> There's usually less raw data, but
> it's trivial to get that stuff from books or Wikipedia or whatever.
Knock yourself out. I'd be interested in seeing the data.
> Data is cheap, the connections--putting things together--are what
_matter_.
Trav has the analytical skills to arrive at cogent conclusions, given the
data, yet he doesn't delve any deeper than suits his agenda. He has yet to
present a reasonable pretense of an argument for this particular slant on
Native American culture. What this presently amounts to, is nonsense.
> He should seriously start charging for his Usenet posts.
A fool and his money.
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Laszlo
Wayne Dobson wrote:
> "Laszlo" <chaos...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1164716414....@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> data, yet he doesn't delve any deeper than suits his agenda. He has yet to
> present a reasonable pretense of an argument for this particular slant on
> Native American culture. What this presently amounts to, is nonsense.
Oh, I wasn't particularly impressed with _this_ post of his; it was fun
to
read, but doesn't really draw any interesting conclusions or point out
non-obvious connections. I was speaking mostly about his posts on
economics or history.
Laszlo
Rabid Weasel
> It's hardly worth the effort to respond to a racist piece of shit like
> you, but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
> difficult for nomadic people to preserve.
It may surprise you to find out that lots of pre-European-contact american
societies weren't nomadic. Many had permanent settlements and even cities
such as the Cahokia of Illinois or the Serpent Mound builders of Ohio.
Can't have a city like Cahokia without well developed agriculture.
There's also the Cliff Cities and several other examples.
Still the art left by the pre-European-contact natives in North America
tends to be more or less crude when compared to that left by the
pre-European natives of Central and South America. Jewelry, pottery, wall
and cliff paintings, etc. All nice enough for what they are but none, as
a general rule, rising to the sophistication of that of the
pre-European-contact Central and South American art nor that of
contemporary European efforts.
(IH)
The_NEW_AND_IMPROVED_Dimi
>
>Not to suck Trav' dick or anything, but many of his posts are like some
>of the
>finest university seminars I've been to, the ones where the professor
>actually
>had a clue about what they were teaching. There's usually less raw
>data, but
>it's trivial to get that stuff from books or Wikipedia or whatever.
>Data is cheap,
>the connections--putting things together--are what _matter_.
>
>He should seriously start charging for his Usenet posts.
>
>Laszlo
So...what you're saying is: you want lube for Christmas? :>
Shuurai
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:10:19 -0700, hal wrote:
>
> > It's hardly worth the effort to respond to a racist piece of shit like
> > you, but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
> > difficult for nomadic people to preserve.
>
> It may surprise you to find out that lots of pre-European-contact american
> societies weren't nomadic. Many had permanent settlements and even cities
> such as the Cahokia of Illinois or the Serpent Mound builders of Ohio.
Not only cities but established trade routes, centers of commerce; they
definately had agriculture and animal domestication.
> Can't have a city like Cahokia without well developed agriculture.
Nah, a bunch of liberals from Europe built that for them in secret.
> There's also the Cliff Cities and several other examples.
Aztecs? Olmecs? Inca? Any of these ring any bells?
> Still the art left by the pre-European-contact natives in North America
> tends to be more or less crude when compared to that left by the
> pre-European natives of Central and South America. Jewelry, pottery, wall
> and cliff paintings, etc. All nice enough for what they are but none, as
> a general rule, rising to the sophistication of that of the
> pre-European-contact Central and South American art nor that of
> contemporary European efforts.
Most of the pre-Euro North American art was organic such as weaving, or
pottery. These things just don't age well. There was certainly a very
utilitarian focus compared to those in South or Central America, but
the stuff that remains can be very beautiful. If you get a chance,
check out the Cleveland Museum of Art sometime - they have an amazing
Native American section. It's not large, but it's got some impressive
examples.
It's true that South/Central American art tends to be more
sophisticated. They had much larger cities, bigger economies, more
specialization of skill. But there is a lot of really incredible stuff
out there from North America too. A
trav...@aol.com
LOL.
Seriously.
I will respond to this right now, as well as to some of the other
people who asked for "data" or whatever. To those who want data, go
and look for yer fkin self at the museum. Open daily till 530p. Take
a fking gander. I walked in w/ an anti-white who was herself converted
by the paucity of stuff there. It's ALL the same, ALL stone-aged, ALL
primitive, ALL assymetrical stone carvings and crude tools.
Now, onto hal's point about the no-fkingmads.
Hey, asshole, have you figured out yet what fucking continent you're
on? This IS NORTH AMERICA, SHITSTAIN! And look how much free fucking
time YOU have on your hands living on this EXACT SAME GODFORSAKEN
BARREN PLOT!
Civilization ARRIVED WITH THE FKING SPANIARDS. It hadn't been
DEVELOPED HERE YET. We - I know, I know, surprising - WENT to the
fucking MOON from this SAME ASSED NORTH AMERICA less than 70 years
after the natives here were STILL carving fucking wooden spoons by
hand!
Art is practiced, hal, by the CIVILIZED.
Get that through your fucking skull. In motherfucking 25000 YEARS, the
natives here did less than we whites accomplished in 2.
Nevermind your absurdly ignorant nonsense about cities and
injuns...good lord, like you've never heard of Chichen Itza or
Techotihuican or any of the fking villages that were populated by the
injuns in the NW. Like every ignorant, you got your ideas about injuns
from Dances with Wolves, you bigoted motherfucker, and you think every
injun was a plains injun. You ever heard of the Anasazi, you fucking
babbling asshole?
Hal, your ignorance knows no limits.
But, thanks anyway for proving my point, the gd'd injuns were not
CIVILIZED. Cities are an artifact of CIVILIZATION; that is why they
CALL THEM CIVILIZATIONS. Injuns deserve at most a wing in a museum,
although there's likely enough Mayan, Aztec, and Inca artifacts to fill
this museum, despite the political opposition to that of the US injun
lobby. Either way, if a fking anti-white Indian girl gets it, says
"they should make this the Spanish History Museum," is so struck by the
CONTRAST within the same museum of what the Spaniards had in 1500
versus the natives, then perhaps you ought to take notice, you idiot.
Trav
Wayne Dobson
Ok. That's a fair position.
Rabid Weasel
> Most of the pre-Euro North American art was organic such as weaving, or
> pottery. These things just don't age well. There was certainly a very
> utilitarian focus compared to those in South or Central America, but
> the stuff that remains can be very beautiful.
Sure thing.
> If you get a chance,
> check out the Cleveland Museum of Art sometime - they have an amazing
> Native American section. It's not large, but it's got some impressive
> examples.
Been there. I love visiting museums. I try to get to any of the major
ones in the major cities that I live near or visit. The ones in Chicago
are some of my favorites but there are fine institutions all over; here in
Dayton, or even in Detroit.
> It's true that South/Central American art tends to be more
> sophisticated. They had much larger cities, bigger economies, more
> specialization of skill. But there is a lot of really incredible stuff
> out there from North America too. A
Yeah. I really liked the copper stuff from Cahokia.
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Chas
.......but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
> difficult for nomadic people to preserve. Art is a luxury, practiced
> by people with time on their hands for leisure activities. Nomadic
> natives struggling to survive rarely had time for such trivia. People
> who had to pack up every season to move to another hunting ground
> couldn't carry around a bunch of extra shit. Art did not occur until
> the hunter/gatherer settled into villages and developed a market
> economy.
Actually, they made 'transportable' art; basketry, beading, small stone
carvings like pipes, fine 'points' for trade (as contrasted with 'use'),
feather work, small metal work from found copper- stuff like that.
'City' indians built huge mounds, describing motifs that can only be seen
from the sky. In the South East US, they did extraordinary art as a
specialized function by individuals who sold their work.
Indians had lots of time to do artwork (exceptions noted). Everything they
used in daily life was ornamented- we often say it was for
'religious/magical' reasons, but isn't it all?
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, massage tools, practice and conditioning tools)
Pierre Honeyman
trav...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> I will respond to this right now, as well as to some of the other
> people who asked for "data" or whatever. To those who want data, go
> and look for yer fkin self at the museum. Open daily till 530p. Take
> a fking gander. I walked in w/ an anti-white who was herself converted
> by the paucity of stuff there. It's ALL the same, ALL stone-aged, ALL
> primitive, ALL assymetrical stone carvings and crude tools.
Yeah, you have a bad museum there, and it sounds like the DC boys need
to step up and find better stuff. While stone aged, for sure, BC
coastal natives nevertheless did some very fantastic art. Most of it
was installation work, though: totem poles, fantastically carved and
painted long houses. Lots of it is clothing - hats, blankets, etc.
More of it is ceremonial: masks, bent boxes, drums etc. From an "art"
perspective a lot of it is very sophisticated, despite the
technological paucity of their nations when Europeans got here.
Pierre
Chas
>......It's ALL the same, ALL stone-aged, ALL
> primitive, ALL assymetrical stone carvings and crude tools.
And they did things that can't be duplicated *today*- in precious stone,
like jasper/agates and varigated flint. They traded stone over hundreds, if
not thousands, of miles- like Alcibates Flint.
It's all in what they valued.
> But, thanks anyway for proving my point, the gd'd injuns were not
> CIVILIZED. Cities are an artifact of CIVILIZATION; that is why they
> CALL THEM CIVILIZATIONS. Injuns deserve at most a wing in a museum,
> although there's likely enough Mayan, Aztec, and Inca artifacts to fill
> this museum, despite the political opposition to that of the US injun
> lobby.
It was the Natchez indians from the SE United States that went down and were
the Aztecs- the language, Nahuatl, still survives. The guys that built in
earth and wood up in the woodlands went down and built in stone. You can
walk from Georgia to Mexico City- and they did.
It's like early europeans that built in wood- little survives of the early
Northern civilization except remnants of the holes they dug for the logs
they built with- the Swiss Lake People an example.
By any measure whatsoever, they had 'civilizations'; architecture, medicine,
social structure, technology, sciences, mathematics, language and
literature,.....
The Plains culture happened because of the European and the horse. It only
lasted a couple of centuries at the most. The Plains were a desert, and
largely uninhabited except by 'Digger' indians- the Lakota got horses from
the Comanch, killed off everybody that wasn't Lakota, and started being able
to hunt buffalo. They had pretty much left them alone up until then- that's
why there were so many of them. They ate everything else into extinction.
Into the SouthWest, the division was between 'city' indians and 'raider'
indians. Raiders had far less 'art' than the city indians did.
Chas
trav...@aol.com
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
> And they did things that can't be duplicated *today*- in precious stone,
> like jasper/agates and varigated flint. They traded stone over hundreds, if
> not thousands, of miles- like Alcibates Flint.
> It's all in what they valued.
Who gives a crap? Stone age people trade stones.
> By any measure whatsoever, they had 'civilizations'; architecture, medicine,
> social structure, technology, sciences, mathematics, language and
> literature,.....
Horseshit. They didn't even have WRITING. Forget the rest. No
mathematics, no real art. They carved shit. So what?
The truth? The injuns sold us America for glass fking beads.
Trav
Chas
>> It's all in what they valued.
> Who gives a crap? Stone age people trade stones.
Tell that to diamond merchants.
> Horseshit. They didn't even have WRITING. Forget the rest. No
> mathematics, no real art. They carved shit. So what?
We burned most of the codices- of course they had 'writing'. The Five
Civilized Tribes of the SouthEast have writing, still. The quipu was
'writing'.
Of course they had mathematics- look at the calendars based on mathematical
models we're just exploring. Their architecture is *perfectly* aligned to
astronomical points that can only be arrived at with sophisticated
mathematics.
> The truth? The injuns sold us America for glass fking beads.
You underestimate how difficult glass beads were to manufacture- and we
traded them to China, India, and other civilizations as well as to the
indians. The whole world only got them from a few sources; Italy,
Czechoslovakia and maybe a couple others.
Our biggest trade items were cast iron cooking pots, steel sewing needles,
squaw knives and hatchet heads. It all went to their old ladies; same as
everywhere else.
The indians had no concept of property ownership, only of property *use*.
They acceded to the use of 'Manhattan', for example, by europeans- no idea
of 'transferring ownership'. That's mainly a concept generated by nobles
trading lands and subjects.
Mark Goldberg
>
> Actually, they made 'transportable' art; basketry, beading, small stone
> carvings like pipes, fine 'points' for trade (as contrasted with 'use'),
> feather work, small metal work from found copper- stuff like that.
> 'City' indians built huge mounds, describing motifs that can only be seen
> from the sky. In the South East US, they did extraordinary art as a
> specialized function by individuals who sold their work.
> Indians had lots of time to do artwork (exceptions noted). Everything they
> used in daily life was ornamented- we often say it was for
> 'religious/magical' reasons, but isn't it all?
A bit O.T., but, I remember visiting Chichen-Itza, the Mayan ruin,or
however it's spelled, down in the Yucatan. I don't remember the
particulars, but the main pyramid like structure, a celebration that
they tell you was probably agriculturally connected struck me as
serpentine but in a fixated sort of drifting meditation of another
world. A world of magic, of death, sacrifices of children, women- I
can't remember if it was a rain or sun God, but the combo of
mathematical precision of some of the structures and their uses, the
human sacrifice, and centuries of building and planning, also struck me.
The neolithic mythology tended to wane to put it bluntly under that
assemblage.
Mark
trav...@aol.com
> Tell that to diamond merchants.
That would require mining, another thing natives didn't do much of, at
least not NAs.
> We burned most of the codices- of course they had 'writing'. The Five
> Civilized Tribes of the SouthEast have writing, still. The quipu was
> 'writing'.
Horseshit. They had crude heiroglyphics, nothing more.
> Of course they had mathematics- look at the calendars based on mathematical
> models we're just exploring. Their architecture is *perfectly* aligned to
> astronomical points that can only be arrived at with sophisticated
> mathematics.
Their calendars are as good as anyone else's developed 5000 years ago.
Alignment of rocks to the stars are what Stonehenge was, again, 5000
years ago. These were primitives, Chas, any way you look at it.
Sure, they were a late paleolithic society, even early bronze age in
some areas. Like the early Egyptians. And? We compare Imperial
Spanish society to that and call the former primitive. Why is it so
hard to do here?
> You underestimate how difficult glass beads were to manufacture- and we
> traded them to China, India, and other civilizations as well as to the
> indians. The whole world only got them from a few sources; Italy,
> Czechoslovakia and maybe a couple others.
They were being churned out by the Imperial Assload in factories in
Venice. A byproduct of this thing we white men call industrialism.
> Our biggest trade items were cast iron cooking pots, steel sewing needles,
> squaw knives and hatchet heads. It all went to their old ladies; same as
> everywhere else.
> The indians had no concept of property ownership, only of property *use*.
> They acceded to the use of 'Manhattan', for example, by europeans- no idea
> of 'transferring ownership'. That's mainly a concept generated by nobles
> trading lands and subjects.
> --
> Chas
Oh, bullfkinshit. They SOLD us shit. They seemed to understand
stealing women, animals, precious items, any physical possession from
one another as well as displacing another tribe from the land and fking
pissing on its corners to demarcate turf boundaries.
Gimme a break. They perhaps had no concept of staying in one place for
very long because their pathetic savage societies were constantly
getting overrun by bigger tribes. The major injun empires, however,
DEFINITELY had a concept of conquest. There are artifacts in the NA
museum which were TRIBUTE to the Aztecs. Fking no property my ass...
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> Chas wrote:
> A bit O.T., but, I remember visiting Chichen-Itza, the Mayan ruin,or
> however it's spelled, down in the Yucatan. I don't remember the
> particulars, but the main pyramid like structure, a celebration that
> they tell you was probably agriculturally connected struck me as
> serpentine but in a fixated sort of drifting meditation of another
> world. A world of magic, of death, sacrifices of children, women- I
> can't remember if it was a rain or sun God, but the combo of
> mathematical precision of some of the structures and their uses, the
> human sacrifice, and centuries of building and planning, also struck me.
> The neolithic mythology tended to wane to put it bluntly under that
> assemblage.
>
> Mark
I have video of me carrying my son up and down those steps...shot by
me, too. The Great Mayan Pyramid at Chichen is the pinnacle of the
preColombian W Hemisphere. Compare its 75' height and solid earthen
innards to that of what is at Giza. Seriously, do. Compare to the Taj
Mahal, Haigha Sophia, the Alhambra, any of half a zillion european
cathedrals, the aqueduct, parthenon, colosseum, any of a million lesser
Roman arches or Greek Delphi or Acropolis structures...this Mayan
artifact is comparatively very minor and very late.
The site was typical of what could have been achieved by the ancient
Sumerians. Truly unremarkable for its completion date, which is
anywhere from 1100-1300 AD. Were it 5000 years old, it'd be fantastic,
but at this period, let us recall that the Romans had already long gone
through arch architecture, had aqueducts, plumbing, multistoried
buildings, nevermind the metallurgy, art, and all the rest in the
intervening period. There's simply no comparison.
Artifacts of civilization that did not exist in Mesoamerica had been
around for 1000s of years in other parts of the world.
The injuns were primitives. Nobody should feel any remorse for their
displacement. It was simple evolution.
Trav
Chas
>......The Great Mayan Pyramid at Chichen is the pinnacle of the
> preColombian W Hemisphere. Compare its 75' height and solid earthen
> innards to that of what is at Giza. Seriously, do. Compare to the Taj
> Mahal, Haigha Sophia, the Alhambra, any of half a zillion european
> cathedrals, the aqueduct, parthenon, colosseum, any of a million lesser
> Roman arches or Greek Delphi or Acropolis structures...this Mayan
> artifact is comparatively very minor and very late.
Just not true-
The Great Serpent Mound is *huge*, as are other mounds all along the
Mississippi. They figure one of the lesser mounds at over 60M units of
earth. Taos is one of the bigger buildings; Mesa Verde and Casas Grandes;
the *miles* of stonework buildings in Mexico City and to the South.
They didn't need the wheel- they lived in mudflats and up the sides of
mountains. They didn't need aqueducts- and they had sewage/fresh water
systems where needed.
The stonework is every bit as sophisticated as any on Earth.
> The site was typical of what could have been achieved by the ancient
> Sumerians.
Clay brick/adobe was widely used, and to grand effect- as with Taos.
> Truly unremarkable for its completion date, which is
> anywhere from 1100-1300 AD. Were it 5000 years old, it'd be fantastic,
> but at this period, let us recall that the Romans had already long gone
> through arch architecture, had aqueducts, plumbing, multistoried
> buildings, nevermind the metallurgy, art, and all the rest in the
> intervening period. There's simply no comparison.
Actually, about the only thing indians lacked was smelting- they certainly
matched anyone anywhere in their building.
> Artifacts of civilization that did not exist in Mesoamerica had been
> around for 1000s of years in other parts of the world.
and artifacts of civilization that existed in Mesoamerica didn't exist
anywhere else- trepanning skills, eye surgery, prosthetics; they drilled the
smallest holes on the face of the earth, produced the sharpest tools,
formulated the most sophisticated calendar, and among the most sophisticated
writing on earth, the Mayan Codices. Their stone-work and gold-smithing was
as good as anywhere else.
We were so repulsed by their religious practices (human sacrifice and ritual
cannibalism) that we destroyed much of what they'd wrought- as well as
melting down their work for the gold/silver content. We burned tons of their
writings- only four Codices still exist, and they're incredibly
sophisticated. We destroyed quipu, and the guys that knew how to interpret
them, and still don't know how to read them. They're hugely sophisticated.
Chas
h...@nospam.com
wrote:
><h...@nospam.com> wrote
>.......but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
>> difficult for nomadic people to preserve. Art is a luxury, practiced
>> by people with time on their hands for leisure activities. Nomadic
>> natives struggling to survive rarely had time for such trivia. People
>> who had to pack up every season to move to another hunting ground
>> couldn't carry around a bunch of extra shit. Art did not occur until
>> the hunter/gatherer settled into villages and developed a market
>> economy.
>
>Actually, they made 'transportable' art; basketry, beading, small stone
>carvings like pipes, fine 'points' for trade (as contrasted with 'use'),
>feather work, small metal work from found copper- stuff like that.
>'City' indians built huge mounds, describing motifs that can only be seen
>from the sky. In the South East US, they did extraordinary art as a
>specialized function by individuals who sold their work.
>Indians had lots of time to do artwork (exceptions noted). Everything they
>used in daily life was ornamented- we often say it was for
>'religious/magical' reasons, but isn't it all?
Sure. A lot of it can be seen at the Smithsonian. A place that
apparently the D.C. resident Trav hasn't been yet. No big surprise
there.
Hal
h...@nospam.com
<trav...@aol.com> wrote:
>Civilization ARRIVED WITH THE FKING SPANIARDS. It hadn't been
>DEVELOPED HERE YET. We - I know, I know, surprising - WENT to the
>fucking MOON from this SAME ASSED NORTH AMERICA less than 70 years
>after the natives here were STILL carving fucking wooden spoons by
>hand!
>
>Art is practiced, hal, by the CIVILIZED.
Where was Europe when Baghdad was the cradle of civilization,
shit-for-brains?
>
>Get that through your fucking skull. In motherfucking 25000 YEARS, the
>natives here did less than we whites accomplished in 2.
>
>Nevermind your absurdly ignorant nonsense about cities and
>injuns...good lord, like you've never heard of Chichen Itza or
>Techotihuican or any of the fking villages that were populated by the
>injuns in the NW. Like every ignorant, you got your ideas about injuns
>from Dances with Wolves, you bigoted motherfucker, and you think every
>injun was a plains injun. You ever heard of the Anasazi, you fucking
>babbling asshole?
Yea, yea, you doofus. You were the ones who said they had no art.
Never visited The Smithsonian, eh? Instead of harrassing those of the
N-word persuasion, you should try visiting a museum.
>
>Hal, your ignorance knows no limits.
>
>But, thanks anyway for proving my point, the gd'd injuns were not
>CIVILIZED. Cities are an artifact of CIVILIZATION; that is why they
>CALL THEM CIVILIZATIONS. Injuns deserve at most a wing in a museum,
>although there's likely enough Mayan, Aztec, and Inca artifacts to fill
>this museum, despite the political opposition to that of the US injun
>lobby. Either way, if a fking anti-white Indian girl gets it, says
>"they should make this the Spanish History Museum," is so struck by the
>CONTRAST within the same museum of what the Spaniards had in 1500
>versus the natives, then perhaps you ought to take notice, you idiot.
>
I'm not defending the existence of the extravagant museum. That was
build by dipshits like you. You know, lawyers and business men, and
other assholes who think they can buy people off.
Hal
>Trav
Chas
>> Tell that to diamond merchants.
> That would require mining, another thing natives didn't do much of, at
> least not NAs.
Actually, NA's mined everything from flint to turquoise. The Alcibates area,
for instance, has been used for *thousands* of years. Indians were masters
of stone- it was their medium. They made things 13,000 years ago, like the
Clovis and Yuma points, that we can't duplicate today. They carried
particular stone for hundreds of miles, trading it amongst themselves.
> Horseshit. They had crude heiroglyphics, nothing more.
No; truely-
the codices are written in a heiroglyphic manner, but *very sophisticated*
stuff. Quipu are extremely complex; the Cherokee writing is more complicated
than our own, and 'alphabetical'- I think they have some thirty characters
or so. The wampum language was another mnemonic/symbolic 'writing', and we
still can't translate it.
> Their calendars are as good as anyone else's developed 5000 years ago.
Far better than any used today-
> Oh, bullfkinshit. They SOLD us shit.
They traded us shit.
Including 'access'- nothing to do with 'ownership'.
> They seemed to understand
> stealing women, animals, precious items, any physical possession from
> one another as well as displacing another tribe from the land and fking
> pissing on its corners to demarcate turf boundaries.
Sure- for *use*, not proprietary ownership as we understand it.
> Gimme a break. They perhaps had no concept of staying in one place for
> very long because their pathetic savage societies were constantly
> getting overrun by bigger tribes.
No- in the SEast, for instance, they had large cities with established
artisans/merchants in addition to a noble class and agricultural workers.
The whole Mississippi Valley/Woodlands/Hopewell/Glacial Kame culture went
all the way up to Michigan and so on.
They were wiped out in a big epidemic in the 13th century- it must have gone
nationwide, and just decimated them. There was another in the 17th century,
probably as a consequence of the europeans.
> The major injun empires, however,
> DEFINITELY had a concept of conquest. There are artifacts in the NA
> museum which were TRIBUTE to the Aztecs. Fking no property my ass...
We're not talking artifacts, but transfer of real estate.
Of course they were a warrior culture- some of the Mississippians must have
been able to command tens of thousands of warriors at a time. Other tribes,
in woodland areas or desert, were smaller groups-
And, the Aztecs were interlopers- and wouldn't have fallen to the Spaniards
except with the assistance of their own hereditary enemies. The Aztecs had
killed hundreds of thousands of others- to the place that they were
sacrificing their own people, having run out of the nearer cultures to them;
Olmecs, Toltecs, Mixtecs and so on.
Rabid Weasel
> They didn't need aqueducts- and they had sewage/fresh water
> systems where needed.
Central American civs had very sophisticated water transport systems.
Underground, vaulted arch, aqueducts. Well documented.
Rabid Weasel
>> They seemed to understand
>> stealing women, animals, precious items, any physical possession from
>> one another as well as displacing another tribe from the land and fking
>> pissing on its corners to demarcate turf boundaries.
>
> Sure- for *use*, not proprietary ownership as we understand it.
They sure understood slaves and slavery well enough.
Chas
>> They didn't need aqueducts- and they had sewage/fresh water
>> systems where needed.
> Central American civs had very sophisticated water transport systems.
> Underground, vaulted arch, aqueducts. Well documented.
Yeah; I was speaking of the sort of system that Trav was talking about.
Chas
Chas
>> Sure- for *use*, not proprietary ownership as we understand it.
> They sure understood slaves and slavery well enough.
But not hereditary slavery- which is about the only kind that seems to
bother us. We still use it as a punishment for crime, for instance.
Chas
trav...@aol.com
> apparently the D.C. resident Trav hasn't been yet. No big surprise
> there.
>
> Hal
Another big LOL.
Are you not aware, hal, that the Smithsonian is a collection of
museums, comprising the NASM AND the NA museum, as well as a host of
others?
Please, go away before you embarrass yourself any further.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
The arch? This is patently untrue. Aqueducts, sure, but compare them
to Roman incarnations or even Assyrian, built thousands of years prior.
The point still stands.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
> Actually, NA's mined everything from flint to turquoise. The Alcibates area,
> for instance, has been used for *thousands* of years. Indians were masters
> of stone- it was their medium. They made things 13,000 years ago, like the
> Clovis and Yuma points, that we can't duplicate today. They carried
> particular stone for hundreds of miles, trading it amongst themselves.
Give me a fucking break, Chas. They were STONE AGE. They carried and
traded stones. WTF is wrong with you, man? They picked up some rocks
and shit...did they have screws or pumps or the fking steam engine for
evacuating these mines? No. Their mining was almost all digging in
surface deposits.
> No; truely-
> the codices are written in a heiroglyphic manner, but *very sophisticated*
> stuff. Quipu are extremely complex; the Cherokee writing is more complicated
> than our own, and 'alphabetical'- I think they have some thirty characters
> or so. The wampum language was another mnemonic/symbolic 'writing', and we
> still can't translate it.
Whatever, man. It's amazing, that for such an advanced peoples, they
lacked bronze or other metal alloys. Just fucking amazing. No guns or
mechanical devices either.
> Far better than any used today-
Nonsensical falsity.
> Sure- for *use*, not proprietary ownership as we understand it.
A semantic distinction.
> No- in the SEast, for instance, they had large cities with established
> artisans/merchants in addition to a noble class and agricultural workers.
> The whole Mississippi Valley/Woodlands/Hopewell/Glacial Kame culture went
> all the way up to Michigan and so on.
> They were wiped out in a big epidemic in the 13th century- it must have gone
> nationwide, and just decimated them. There was another in the 17th century,
> probably as a consequence of the europeans.
Again, where are the great architectural edifices to testify to this?
You are spouting revisionist mythology.
> We're not talking artifacts, but transfer of real estate.
> Of course they were a warrior culture- some of the Mississippians must have
> been able to command tens of thousands of warriors at a time. Other tribes,
> in woodland areas or desert, were smaller groups-
> And, the Aztecs were interlopers- and wouldn't have fallen to the Spaniards
> except with the assistance of their own hereditary enemies. The Aztecs had
> killed hundreds of thousands of others- to the place that they were
> sacrificing their own people, having run out of the nearer cultures to them;
> Olmecs, Toltecs, Mixtecs and so on.
> --
> Chas
> Do the Right Thing!
> http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
> (blackjacks, saps, massage tools, practice and conditioning tools)
Wow. 10s of thousands of warriors w/ spears. Just like the Battle at
Blood River.
As for the crap about stone work....sure, as advanced as ANY OTHER
STONE AGED SOCIETY. Wow. They built mounds of dirt. Whoopie fucking
shit. The Egyptians had concrete. Mayan architecture is equivalent to
late mesopotamian. Same earth-filled ziggurats. Again, these were
stone age people. Please do not insult us again with a comparison to
far more advanced societies such as the ancient Greeks.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> sophisticated. We destroyed quipu, and the guys that knew how to interpret
> them, and still don't know how to read them. They're hugely sophisticated.
>
> Chas
I've got to answer this part...Chas, sophisticated people with advanced
civilizations do not cut out people's hearts.
They plant flags on the Moon and send robots to Mars.
The fucking vaunted aqueducts of the Aztecs, when overflowing, needed
to be dissipated by a human sacrifice to the fucking rain god?
Give me a goddamned BREAK, please. STONEHENGE is a sophisticated
fucking calendar! Calendars are NOT the hallmark of advancement.
Technology is.
Nobody NEEDS the wheel anymore than they NEED a fucking car or the
Wrights NEEDed to fly a gd'd plane while the injuns were still
hollowing out trees in the fking "ancient ways."
Trav
Chas
> I've got to answer this part...Chas, sophisticated people with advanced
> civilizations do not cut out people's hearts.
Boy, that sure was the clinker, wasn't it?
We were in the midst of the Spanish Inquisition- doing unspeakable things to
people on the basis of their religion, their class, their heredity or
political affiliation-
The Chinese were inventing some of the most convoluted tortures the world
has ever known, comparing only to the Caliphate of the period.
> The fucking vaunted aqueducts of the Aztecs, when overflowing, needed
> to be dissipated by a human sacrifice to the fucking rain god?
Think of it as retroactive abortion-
> Give me a goddamned BREAK, please. STONEHENGE is a sophisticated
> fucking calendar! Calendars are NOT the hallmark of advancement.
> Technology is.
Calendars only indicate the depth of mathematics- they had the 'zero' as an
example- the astronomical observation, and the ability to calculate out for
thousands of years into the future with accuracy greater than our own.
'Technology' is relative; you don't invent what you don't need. The Aztecs,
for instance, had the wheel (used it on children's toys at the absolute
minimum), but nowhere to use it (jungle, 'lake' cities like Mexico City,
mountainous areas). Their societal focus was in another direction entirely.
> Nobody NEEDS the wheel anymore than they NEED a fucking car or the
> Wrights NEEDed to fly a gd'd plane while the injuns were still
> hollowing out trees in the fking "ancient ways."
Depends on which indians you're talking about-
The NorthWest Coast indians went out to sea in large boats and killed
whales- nothing 'primitive' about it, they went where they wanted to. Other
indians used canoes that compare to anything before fiberglas; others with
*really* good dugouts, really good bullboats and so on.
What they didn't have is a good indigenous pack animal, or a good indigenous
domestic food/fibre animal.
Chas
> Give me a fucking break, Chas. They were STONE AGE. They carried and
> traded stones.
Yes- and used them for as sophisticated applications as anywhere else in the
world. Better stone tools than Europe; better than Africa, better than Asia-
they were very slick with the materials available.
>.....They picked up some rocks
> and shit...did they have screws or pumps or the fking steam engine for
> evacuating these mines? No. Their mining was almost all digging in
> surface deposits.
They did about the same as anyone else of the period- and utlized volcanic
deposits, limestone caves and geologic upheavals for certain needs. Places
like Arkansas have stone that others have to mine for.
> Whatever, man. It's amazing, that for such an advanced peoples, they
> lacked bronze or other metal alloys. Just fucking amazing. No guns or
> mechanical devices either.
Yeah; there are some real differences. None of them ever seemed to get the
idea of high-temp furnaces. They did low-fire ceramics, even used metallic
ore glazes, but not anything any higher temp than that.
>> Far better than any used today-
> Nonsensical falsity.
Nope- knew the rotation of the earth to a finer measurement than we use in
the regular 'leap year' calendar. Their calendar projected out some
thousands of years- accurately.
>> Sure- for *use*, not proprietary ownership as we understand it.
> A semantic distinction.
For a semantic distinction.
Real estate in our system may be inherited, for instance- not so for a
treaty agreement to tolerate outsiders.
> Again, where are the great architectural edifices to testify to this?
> You are spouting revisionist mythology.
Not at all- and the mounds are all around you; thousands of them- to include
some of the larger in the world.
The wooden construction that went with them has gone- as with the other
great builders in wood, like Woodhenge, or the great Viking halls, or the
German ones.....
The Moundbuilder culture was virtually extinct for a good three hundred
years before Columbus- although there were remnants well into the 17th cent
and even into the early 19th as regards the Five Civilized Tribes in the
SouthEast.
> As for the crap about stone work....sure, as advanced as ANY OTHER
> STONE AGED SOCIETY.
Nope; best in the world- doing delicate surgery with the sharpest blades in
the world.
The utilitarian points were the best in the world. The 'jewelry' points were
the best in the world. They made the biggest, the smallest, the thinnest,
the sharpest- any measure you want to make.
> Wow. They built mounds of dirt. Whoopie fucking
> shit. The Egyptians had concrete. Mayan architecture is equivalent to
> late mesopotamian. Same earth-filled ziggurats. Again, these were
> stone age people. Please do not insult us again with a comparison to
> far more advanced societies such as the ancient Greeks.
They moved comparable stones- they did comparable carving/ornamentation-
they fitted them to closer tolerances (as with the Inca work), and aligned
them as closely to mathematical/astronomical specs. They did complex
constructs in both sun-dried brick and in stone.
Yes; their metal-work didn't include iron, as their ceramic didn't include
porcelain.
Which makes some of their accomplishments even more startling- like drilling
a smaller hole through hard stone than anywhere else on earth.
Wayne Dobson
news:pan.2006.11.28.21.53.16.266884@NO27862SPAM+dayton.net...
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:34:29 -0700, Chas wrote:
>
> > They didn't need aqueducts- and they had sewage/fresh water
> > systems where needed.
>
> Central American civs had very sophisticated water transport systems.
> Underground, vaulted arch, aqueducts. Well documented.
What are you talking about? Trav went to this one museum and didn't see
anything of note regarding Native American culture. You've been
out-researched.
Wayne Dobson
news:1164754228.6...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >writings- only four Codices still exist, and they're incredibly
> > sophisticated. We destroyed quipu, and the guys that knew how to
interpret
> > them, and still don't know how to read them. They're hugely
sophisticated.
> >
> > Chas
>
> I've got to answer this part...Chas, sophisticated people with advanced
> civilizations do not cut out people's hearts.
No, what sophisticated people from advanced civilisations do is feed people
to lions and regularly fuck each other up the ass in preference to sticking
it where god intended. You see? Completely different.
> They plant flags on the Moon and send robots to Mars.
Yet they don't know how to build a fucking sea wall.
> The fucking vaunted aqueducts of the Aztecs, when overflowing, needed
> to be dissipated by a human sacrifice to the fucking rain god?
The sea walls, which needed to be reinforced to prevent disaster, was
dissipated by praying to the gods that the CAT 5 winds would blow in a
different direction, as they had the time before, when you prayed to the
gods instead of reinforcing the walls. But the gods were angry that you
hadn't gotten the whole human sacrifice thing down, and that allowing people
to drown in the aftermath wasn't part of the proper human sacrifice
protocol. Maybe ya'll needed to take a tip from the Aztecs.
> Give me a goddamned BREAK, please. STONEHENGE is a sophisticated
> fucking calendar! Calendars are NOT the hallmark of advancement.
> Technology is.
If you hadn't dropped out of remedial reading class, you would know that
you just said, "an example of technology is not the hallmark of advancement,
technology is."
Rabid Weasel
> Rabid Weasel wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:34:29 -0700, Chas wrote:
>>
>> Central American civs had very sophisticated water transport systems.
>> Underground, vaulted arch, aqueducts. Well documented.
>>
>> Peace favor your sword (IH),
>> Kirk
>
> The arch? This is patently untrue.
Not the Roman Arch, the vaulted arch. Same as the vaulted arches used in
Egyptian Pyramids.
> Aqueducts, sure, but compare them
> to Roman incarnations or even Assyrian, built thousands of years prior.
>
> The point still stands.
I wasn't exactly trying to argue against you. Just providing information.
Rabid Weasel
Not exactly. Trav's basic premise is correct, in that he's saying that
Stone Age civilizations are technologically far less advanced in many
areas than even Bronze Age civilizations. That's a statement inherent in
the description. Bronze production is such an important technological
advance that we use it as a distinction, a mile marker in the advancement
of civilization.
As a corollary more than an oppositional point, I'm saying that "Stone
Age" doesn't get enough credit. There is a modern idea that Stone Age =
Stupid and it just ain't so. Stone Age societies, including pre-European
American natives, could be remarkably sophisticated.
Shuurai
trav...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> >writings- only four Codices still exist, and they're incredibly
> > sophisticated. We destroyed quipu, and the guys that knew how to interpret
> > them, and still don't know how to read them. They're hugely sophisticated.
> >
> > Chas
>
> I've got to answer this part...Chas, sophisticated people with advanced
> civilizations do not cut out people's hearts.
No, they just put them on a rack and stretch them until they die, or
gash open their stomachs and pull out intestines, or cut their heads
off, or tie them to a stake and light them on fire... all of those
sophisticated and advanced things that were being done to people in
Europe before, during, and even after the conquest of the Americas.
> They plant flags on the Moon and send robots to Mars.
So this is the crux of your argument. We explore space, whereas people
didn't hundreds of years ago.
> The fucking vaunted aqueducts of the Aztecs, when overflowing, needed
> to be dissipated by a human sacrifice to the fucking rain god?
White people used to light people on fire on the mere suggestion that
they might be witches. And this was still going on long after the
Aztec empire was gone. People used to find themselves hung in this
country VERY recently (by people like you) just for having a certain
skin tone.
> Give me a goddamned BREAK, please. STONEHENGE is a sophisticated
> fucking calendar! Calendars are NOT the hallmark of advancement.
> Technology is.
Calendars were a big part of what allowed these cultures to grow
adequate food. Considering that they developed highly sophisticated,
predictive calendars without technology is actually quite impressive.
> Nobody NEEDS the wheel anymore than they NEED a fucking car or the
> Wrights NEEDed to fly a gd'd plane while the injuns were still
> hollowing out trees in the fking "ancient ways."
You're usually more coherent than this. You do some bad crack this
week?
Chas
>......all of those
> sophisticated and advanced things that were being done to people in
> Europe before, during, and even after the conquest of the Americas.
What's funny, if that's the word, is that many of the Conquistadores were
people escaping the Inquisition. Going to the New World was one of the major
options for persons of interest.
Once here, they applied the same attitude towards the indigenes as was
directed at them in Spain.
>.....People used to find themselves hung in this
> country VERY recently (by people like you) just for having a certain
> skin tone.
Actually, more whites were lynched than any other ethnic group- and maybe
more Asians than Blacks. There's a good book that debunks the common myths-
I think the name is 'Vigilantes', subtitled something like 'A history in
America'.
Wayne Dobson
news:1164813534....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Nobody NEEDS the wheel anymore than they NEED a fucking car or the
> > Wrights NEEDed to fly a gd'd plane while the injuns were still
> > hollowing out trees in the fking "ancient ways."
>
> You're usually more coherent than this. You do some bad crack this
> week?
I was thinking the opposite: he finally managed to score some good shit.
His dealer forgot to cut it with talcum powder.
trav...@aol.com
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
> Yes- and used them for as sophisticated applications as anywhere else in the
> world. Better stone tools than Europe; better than Africa, better than Asia-
> they were very slick with the materials available.
So they were the most advanced STONE AGE people. Wow. We were in the
age of steel by this point, pre-industrial. We had factories and
mechanical devices.
> They did about the same as anyone else of the period- and utlized volcanic
> deposits, limestone caves and geologic upheavals for certain needs. Places
> like Arkansas have stone that others have to mine for.
What period, the 1300s? Whitey was rounding the fking Cape then.
> Yeah; there are some real differences. None of them ever seemed to get the
> idea of high-temp furnaces. They did low-fire ceramics, even used metallic
> ore glazes, but not anything any higher temp than that.
They were stone aged. A great example of a late stone age
civilization.
> Nope- knew the rotation of the earth to a finer measurement than we use in
> the regular 'leap year' calendar. Their calendar projected out some
> thousands of years- accurately.
Misleading falsehood. Our calendar is the way it is because we are
trying to fit days, weeks, and months of fixed duration into a solar
year which does not break down onto an even number of days. The
Gregorian has been far more useful in competition with the fking Mayan
calendar, giving us things like work weeks and predictable time
schedules.
The mayans, wtf did they do? Did they go to the fucking factory and
stay home on the Sabbath? GTFO of here w/ this crap.
> Not at all- and the mounds are all around you; thousands of them- to include
> some of the larger in the world.
> The wooden construction that went with them has gone- as with the other
> great builders in wood, like Woodhenge, or the great Viking halls, or the
> German ones.....
> The Moundbuilder culture was virtually extinct for a good three hundred
> years before Columbus- although there were remnants well into the 17th cent
> and even into the early 19th as regards the Five Civilized Tribes in the
> SouthEast.
Wow. Wood, earth, and stone. I'll put that right up there with the
Lighthouse at Alexandria.
> Nope; best in the world- doing delicate surgery with the sharpest blades in
> the world.
> The utilitarian points were the best in the world. The 'jewelry' points were
> the best in the world. They made the biggest, the smallest, the thinnest,
> the sharpest- any measure you want to make.
You are on crack, Chas. The sharpest things on earth are the points of
STEMs. BTW, those aren't injun in origin.
> They moved comparable stones- they did comparable carving/ornamentation-
> they fitted them to closer tolerances (as with the Inca work), and aligned
> them as closely to mathematical/astronomical specs. They did complex
> constructs in both sun-dried brick and in stone.
> Yes; their metal-work didn't include iron, as their ceramic didn't include
> porcelain.
> Which makes some of their accomplishments even more startling- like drilling
> a smaller hole through hard stone than anywhere else on earth.
> --
> Chas
Wow. Chas, you have just summed up a stone-age people.
In 5000 years, maybe it'd have been them that went to the Moon.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> No, they just put them on a rack and stretch them until they die, or
> gash open their stomachs and pull out intestines, or cut their heads
> off, or tie them to a stake and light them on fire... all of those
> sophisticated and advanced things that were being done to people in
> Europe before, during, and even after the conquest of the Americas.
Yes, but they do it with TECHNOLOGY.
> So this is the crux of your argument. We explore space, whereas people
> didn't hundreds of years ago.
No. The crux of my argument is that a stone-aged people do not deserve
an entire museum, and a comparison of the relative merits of one
society versus another at the same point in time is enough to even slap
the face of the PC.
Apparently, not those here, though. You guys are irretrievably stupid.
> White people used to light people on fire on the mere suggestion that
> they might be witches. And this was still going on long after the
> Aztec empire was gone. People used to find themselves hung in this
> country VERY recently (by people like you) just for having a certain
> skin tone.
So, perhaps the absence of wanton slaughter is not a good hallmark of
societal advancement. Point taken.
> Calendars were a big part of what allowed these cultures to grow
> adequate food. Considering that they developed highly sophisticated,
> predictive calendars without technology is actually quite impressive.
Huh? No, it isn't. It seriously fking isn't. EVERYONE had a gd'd
calendar that we're "marvelling" at as being so gd'd precise and
accurate. People have been studying the motion of the sun for
millennia. It's simply not that big of a deal.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> Calendars only indicate the depth of mathematics- they had the 'zero' as an
> example- the astronomical observation, and the ability to calculate out for
> thousands of years into the future with accuracy greater than our own.
> 'Technology' is relative; you don't invent what you don't need. The Aztecs,
> for instance, had the wheel (used it on children's toys at the absolute
> minimum), but nowhere to use it (jungle, 'lake' cities like Mexico City,
> mountainous areas). Their societal focus was in another direction entirely.
Good lord, I know we've had this argument before...you ever heard of a
fucking pulley, Chas?
The goddamned Egyptians found a mfing use for the wheel as did EVERYONE
ELSE, even if they lived on the fucking plains or in a motherfucking
jungle.
> Depends on which indians you're talking about-
> The NorthWest Coast indians went out to sea in large boats and killed
> whales- nothing 'primitive' about it, they went where they wanted to. Other
> indians used canoes that compare to anything before fiberglas; others with
> *really* good dugouts, really good bullboats and so on.
> What they didn't have is a good indigenous pack animal, or a good indigenous
> domestic food/fibre animal.
> --
> Chas
Wow. They killed a whale. You know, I've seen a polar bear do that,
too. I await the discovery of the advanced polar bear calendar which
is more sophisticated than ours and polar bear spaceflight.
Trav
Chas
>> They did about the same as anyone else of the period- and utlized
>> volcanic
>> deposits, limestone caves and geologic upheavals for certain needs.
>> Places
>> like Arkansas have stone that others have to mine for.
> What period, the 1300s? Whitey was rounding the fking Cape then.
Actually, 13,000 years ago- the best stuff ever made is also the oldest; see
'Clovis', 'Yuma'.
There is growing evidence of Europeans migrating here in that time range-
I'm not sure if that has racialist implications for you.
> Misleading falsehood. Our calendar is the way it is because we are
> trying to fit days, weeks, and months of fixed duration into a solar
> year which does not break down onto an even number of days. The
> Gregorian has been far more useful in competition with the fking Mayan
> calendar, giving us things like work weeks and predictable time
> schedules.
Actually, the Mayan Calendar only had to adjust every fifty years- not every
four, and the guys that could read it were all killed. Because of the human
sacrifice thing, all of their writings were burned- *tons* of them- a hugely
literate society.
Only four documents survive- and have only been translated within the last
few years (see; Mayan Codices).
Given 'math' and 'literacy', and thorough facility with the materials at
hand, I just don't see them as 'uncivilized' or somehow 'unintelligent'.
> Wow. Wood, earth, and stone. I'll put that right up there with the
> Lighthouse at Alexandria.
You should.
The wooden structures in Japan certainly rival other, more 'enduring',
architecture. You use the material at hand. In Mesopotamia, it was
mud-brick; in Egypt, stone; same with Greece and Rome- lots of
limestone/marble. In the Northlands, logs.
The 'hole' layout that they've found on some of the mounds, where they put
the support logs for large buildings, indicate some very large structures.
The people that built them were virtually wiped out in the epidemic in the
thirteenth century or so. That epidemic even traveled into the South West-
and may have contributed to the Anasazi/Hohokam events as at Mesa
Verde/Casas Grandes.
> Wow. Chas, you have just summed up a stone-age people.
> In 5000 years, maybe it'd have been them that went to the Moon.
Perhaps they didn't lose anything there that they had to go back and look
for.
Chas
Chas
> Good lord, I know we've had this argument before...you ever heard of a
> fucking pulley, Chas?
Sure; in fact, that's the first kind I heard of.
> The goddamned Egyptians found a mfing use for the wheel as did EVERYONE
> ELSE, even if they lived on the fucking plains or in a motherfucking
> jungle.
Not at all- and, as I say, the Mesoamericans were fully aware of the
principle- they just didn't use it for transport. There wasn't anywhere they
could use it that way.
> Wow. They killed a whale.
Yeah- deliberately, and in it's best environment.
Not something we much did until just a couple of hundred years ago.
Few of their wooden buildings survive either, but there are good photos of
them from the nineteenth century. They were very large; complex; filled with
refined objects made from available materials.
Wayne Dobson
news:1164657882.0...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Right, I GOT IT that they'd been doing
> these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go ahead
> and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases, just
> like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
> out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
Does anyone know what curable diseases the indians where dying from, that
Trav is referring to?
Wayne Dobson
news:1164817835....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
> Shuurai wrote:
> > No, they just put them on a rack and stretch them until they die, or
> > gash open their stomachs and pull out intestines, or cut their heads
> > off, or tie them to a stake and light them on fire... all of those
> > sophisticated and advanced things that were being done to people in
> > Europe before, during, and even after the conquest of the Americas.
>
> Yes, but they do it with TECHNOLOGY.
Right. Civilised barbarism.
> > So this is the crux of your argument. We explore space, whereas people
> > didn't hundreds of years ago.
>
> No. The crux of my argument is that a stone-aged people do not deserve
> an entire museum, and a comparison of the relative merits of one
> society versus another at the same point in time is enough to even slap
> the face of the PC.
No, the crux of your argument was that Native Americans have no culture.
> Apparently, not those here, though. You guys are irretrievably stupid.
The Emporer's New Clothes.
> > White people used to light people on fire on the mere suggestion that
> > they might be witches. And this was still going on long after the
> > Aztec empire was gone. People used to find themselves hung in this
> > country VERY recently (by people like you) just for having a certain
> > skin tone.
>
> So, perhaps the absence of wanton slaughter is not a good hallmark of
> societal advancement. Point taken.
Good silat. Keep watering down the original definition till it bears no
resemblence to the utenable one that you started out with. In any case,
I've never seen Trav concede a point, before. You are a poor shadow of an
imposter, whoever you are.
Shuurai
> > No, they just put them on a rack and stretch them until they die, or
> > gash open their stomachs and pull out intestines, or cut their heads
> > off, or tie them to a stake and light them on fire... all of those
> > sophisticated and advanced things that were being done to people in
> > Europe before, during, and even after the conquest of the Americas.
>
> Yes, but they do it with TECHNOLOGY.
Ahh, I see... so it's not the brutal death by torture that you find
uncivilized, it's that they aren't using a cool device to do it.
> > So this is the crux of your argument. We explore space, whereas people
> > didn't hundreds of years ago.
>
> No. The crux of my argument is that a stone-aged people do not deserve
> an entire museum, and a comparison of the relative merits of one
> society versus another at the same point in time is enough to even slap
> the face of the PC.
Since the scope of your knowledge on these cultures comes from spending
an hour in a second-rate museum, you must understand how some people
might not put too much stock in your opinion of their merits. Then
again, you've shown a remarkable ignorance of European culture as well,
so maybe the problem is bigger.
> Apparently, not those here, though. You guys are irretrievably stupid.
And yet of everyone here, you are the one showing the most ignorance on
all of the cultures being talked about, including your own.
> > White people used to light people on fire on the mere suggestion that
> > they might be witches. And this was still going on long after the
> > Aztec empire was gone. People used to find themselves hung in this
> > country VERY recently (by people like you) just for having a certain
> > skin tone.
>
> So, perhaps the absence of wanton slaughter is not a good hallmark of
> societal advancement. Point taken.
The funny thing is that as much as you try to pass yourself off as some
kind of grand intellectual, blatently obvious points like this seem to
elude you on a regular basis. And in this case, it's not just the
obvious point that you missed. The fact that the cultures you are
trying to argue as "more advanced" did as much or more of what you're
berating the "primitive" cultures for seems to have eluded you as well.
> > Calendars were a big part of what allowed these cultures to grow
> > adequate food. Considering that they developed highly sophisticated,
> > predictive calendars without technology is actually quite impressive.
>
> Huh? No, it isn't. It seriously fking isn't. EVERYONE had a gd'd
> calendar that we're "marvelling" at as being so gd'd precise and
> accurate. People have been studying the motion of the sun for
> millennia. It's simply not that big of a deal.
Once again you flaunt your ignorance as though it were a source of
pride for you.
The calendar developed by the Mayan empire accurately tracked the paths
of the sun, moon, venus, as well as several major stars and
constellations. It accurately predicts the paths of most of these
objects up until around the year 2010, and it was developed and in
widespread use long before Spain ever dreamed about the New World. To
this day nobody is quite sure how they managed such accuracy. But
there is evidence of complex writing, literature, and advanced
mathematics.
The calendars of the Aztec and Inca cultures were somewhat less
advanced, but still accurately tracked the sun, moon, and various stars
to a remarkable degree.
None of the North American cultures had calendars nearly as complex or
exact, but many were tracking the sun and moon in order to establish
dates for crops, or for moving from place to place.
suds mcduff
> The truth? The injuns sold us America for glass fking beads.
>
> Trav
---The truth? That injun sold *another* tribes land, the Euros thought
they were all the same!
We play heap big joke on washitus!
suds mcduff
> In 5000 years, maybe it'd have been them that went to the Moon.
>
> Trav
----Yeah, but the Aztec weren't scared of bath water like the Spaniards.
Sam the Bam
> but native Americans had lots of art, but unfortunately it is
> difficult for nomadic people to preserve.... Nomadic
> natives struggling to survive rarely had time for such trivia.
um, if it wasn't preserved, how do you know they had
lots of it? You been communing with the Great Buffalo,
who reveals these things?
Another mystery: why were those nomadic natives
(who weren't actually 'native', but Asian immigrants,
but let me not digress) struggling to survive? When
the nomadic Europeans arrived, they didn't struggle -
they found such a bountiful land, they thought they'd
died and gone to heaven, and built the richest society
on earth.
Sam
Sam the Bam
> >> I always wondered what happened to that little kid in the story of The
> >> Emperor's New Clothes.
> >> Now I know. He grew up and his name is Trav.
> >
> > the connections--putting things together--are what _matter_.
>
> Don't encourage him, or we'll never get his head through doorways.
I think Trav is smart enough to know he's not as smart
as he thinks he is.
Sam
Sam the Bam
> Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not injun,
> real indian. B/c she's a high-caste, she has a sort of anti-european
> kind of bias.
I always wondered what Indians in India think about our
'indians'... how do they react to things like 'cowboys and
indians' movies? Do they cheer when John Wayne sez
"the only good injun is a dead injun"?
Sam
Sam the Bam
> Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not
> injun, real indian. B/c she's a high-caste, she has a sort of
> anti-european kind of bias.
Careful, dude, maybe she's leading you on... she
might be nuthin but a hound dog...
"You said you were high caste, but that was just a lie"
If she never caught a rabbit, that's a giveaway, she
ain't no friend of yours...
Sam
Elvis impersonator
Don Geddis
> the Cherokee writing is more complicated than our own, and 'alphabetical'-
> I think they have some thirty characters or so.
Chief Sequoia (a brilliant man, but -- alas -- born to the wrong
civilization) invented the Cherokee writing system AFTER contact with
the Europeans. It was his attempt to catch up to the obvious advantages
that writing gave to the European invaders.
But its invention was a direct consequence of Sequoia observing European
writing first. He did NOT come up with the idea on his own.
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
The quickest way to a man's heart is through his chest, with an axe.
Don Geddis
> Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not injun,
> real indian. B/c she's a high-caste
Photos?
Come on, don't disappoint. You've long bragged about the quality of tail
that you get. Show us! Share!
-- Don
_______________________________________________________________________________
Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
I think in one of my previous lives I was a mighty king, because I like people
to do what I say. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
Wayne Dobson
>
> Since the scope of your knowledge on these cultures comes from spending
> an hour in a second-rate museum, you must understand how some people
> might not put too much stock in your opinion of their merits. Then
> again, you've shown a remarkable ignorance of European culture as well,
> so maybe the problem is bigger.
You have it all wrong. Europeans have a culture because they are white.
What else is there to know?
Chas
> Another mystery: why were those nomadic natives
> (who weren't actually 'native', but Asian immigrants,
> but let me not digress) struggling to survive?
They weren't- they were doing real well, by and large.
The 'Mississippians' built large cities, lots of people; dedicated artisans
and intellectuals- the whole social order thing.
To a great extent, they had not recovered from the big epidemic of the
thirteenth century- there must have been a huge percentage of them die.
And, Eastern indians were probably more of European decent than 'asian'-
same 'ice-bridge' story, except from the East. Their flint-work is more
similar to European than to other sorts/styles. Indians didn't much cross
the Great Plains before they had horses, and to the South is even worse
desert.
And the European settlers did the same thing the indians did; corn,
potatoes, tobacco, furs, timber, fish- and they had a foreign market in
which to sell them.
The continent was virtually barren of people- even large bands of indians
only numbered in the hundreds. With notable exceptions, like the Hopi/Zuni
and some Pueblos, their 'cultural memory' was gone after the big epidemic.
They had another in the 17th century, ims- I may have my dates off a bit.
Again, it killed whole tribes off as far West as California- the coastal
tribes in particular were badly hit, and it was the inland desert indians
that survived. Desert indians are really primitive, and we tend to think the
whole nation was like that; it wasn't.
Shuurai
trav...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> > Sure. A lot of it can be seen at the Smithsonian. A place that
> > apparently the D.C. resident Trav hasn't been yet. No big surprise
> > there.
> >
> > Hal
>
> Another big LOL.
>
> Are you not aware, hal, that the Smithsonian is a collection of
> museums, comprising the NASM AND the NA museum, as well as a host of
> others?
True, but collectively they are known as "The Smithsonian" whether they
are on the mall in DC or out at Dulles or wherever. And the real issue
at hand here is not whether or not Hal knows that the Smithsonian is
more than one building. The issue is you thinking yourself an expert
on something after spending an hour walking through one such building.
> Please, go away before you embarrass yourself any further.
You should follow your own advice.
Chas
>> the Cherokee writing is more complicated than our own, and
>> 'alphabetical'-
>> I think they have some thirty characters or so.
> writing first. He did NOT come up with the idea on his own.
I was thinking more of the ogam style used by the proto-cherokee as
referenced in 'America, B.C.' by Barry Fell, and conflated them a bit in my
mind. They only recognized it and started to translate examples about thirty
years ago.
I own and have owned several stone artifacts that have the writing on them-
dating well pre-Columbian.
The wampum language is exemplary as well- if you knew the language, you
could read pieces you'd not seen before. I'm not sure that scholars know how
to translate it even yet- there are pieces that were translated two-hundred
years ago, but we don't know the correlation to the actual assemblage of
wampum.
The quipu language is even worse- no translations of any example, and we
have hundreds of thousands of them- some that are fantastically complex.
suds mcduff
----You know, the ones the white man cured by letting some blood out,
or heating up glass jars and applying to the patient's body. ;^ D
Rabid Weasel
Europeans had inoculations against bubonic plague by the time the
conquest got under way.
(IH)
Shuurai
As has been the case since post one of this thread, Trav is talking out
of his ass.
Native Americans weren't dying from curable diseases at any greater
rate than were Europeans. If anything, Europe had more disease and
death due to the crowded living conditions. European medicine at the
time wasn't all that more advanced, and the useful stuff was generally
reserved for those who could afford it - a very small percentage of the
population.
There were no major plagues in the Americas before the arrival of
Euopeans. High population density and indoor living breeds disease.
As time went on, people developed immunities to these diseases, and so
could be carriers for many of them without actually getting sick. The
natives in the Americas, having never been exposed before, had
absolutely no immunity to them, and no experience with even the types
of diseases that result from high density populations.
Check out "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared M. Diamond for a good read
on the subject. He does a really outstanding job of describing the
factors that led to various cultures developing at different rates, and
the reasons might surprise you.
Chas
> There were no major plagues in the Americas before the arrival of
> Euopeans.
Just not true-
Sometime near the thirteenth century, there was a plague that killed off at
least 3 of 4 american indians- wiped out the whole Mississippi River valley
(large cities, moundbuilders), and all the way to Mesa Verde, West to the
California Coastals.
Prior to that, there had been the waxing and waning of various indigenous
cultures; Glacial Kame, Woodland, Hopewell, Natchez- but that epidemic wiped
out the cultural identity of that body of people.
They never recovered from it- and there was another in the seventeenth
century that did it again; probably Measles, from the descriptions of the
period. It went all the way West to the LA area- killed off the Chumash
people.
Chas
>> Does anyone know what curable diseases the indians where dying from, that
>> Trav is referring to?
> ----You know, the ones the white man cured by letting some blood out,
> or heating up glass jars and applying to the patient's body. ;^ D
Ones that we had built up an immunity to; measles was a killer, so was
chicken-pox, and the mumps. They died of the same diseases we did- smallpox,
typhus, typhoid- and the bands of indians were so small, and lived so
closely together, that entire tribal entities died out.
And the same thing is happening today- isn't AIDS an African monkey disease
or similar?
Chas
Gernot Hassenpflug
Shuurai> Once again you flaunt your ignorance as though it were a
Shuurai> source of pride for you.
Shuurai> The calendar developed by the Mayan empire accurately
Shuurai> tracked the paths of the sun, moon, venus, as well as
Shuurai> several major stars and constellations. It accurately
Shuurai> predicts the paths of most of these objects up until
Shuurai> around the year 2010, and it was developed and in
Shuurai> widespread use long before Spain ever dreamed about the
Shuurai> New World. To this day nobody is quite sure how they
Shuurai> managed such accuracy. But there is evidence of complex
Shuurai> writing, literature, and advanced mathematics.
Shuurai> The calendars of the Aztec and Inca cultures were
Shuurai> somewhat less advanced, but still accurately tracked the
Shuurai> sun, moon, and various stars to a remarkable degree.
Shuurai> None of the North American cultures had calendars nearly
Shuurai> as complex or exact, but many were tracking the sun and
Shuurai> moon in order to establish dates for crops, or for moving
Shuurai> from place to place.
Calendars nad technology:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6191462.stm
I have a professor that I teach english to, who specialized in
economic history of East Asia, and has recorded the spread of Chinese
technology around Africa, Arabia, India, South and South East Asia for
over 2500 years. It is quite possible that the technology available to
the South American societies originated in China (and a large portion
of that presumably originated in India of whose trading not as much is
known, apparently).
--
G Hassenpflug * Takemusu Aikido Juku Dojo Osaka
Scary
trav...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
> Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not injun,
> an absolutely gorgeous, multigazillion $ building. Brand fking new.
>
> So, we get inside. Very impressive structure. Sweeping staircases,
> vaulting ceilings, railings, floor, etc.
>
> So, you are wondering, when the fk is he going to talk about the art?
>
> Answer: I'm not, because there fucking WASN'T ANY. Seriously. The
> museum is full of plasma TVs but there's hardly any art in it. Why,
> you ask? The natives didn't HAVE ANY ART.
>
> Seriously, what is in there are a very few number of artifacts, shit
> like canoes, wooden bowls, clothing, fucking fishhooks which are a
> couple of stucks wrapped together w/ twine. How ancient are most of
> these artifacts, you ask? About dating to around 1900. Yes. 1900.
>
> We made our way thru this overpriced joke of a place, and I was keeping
> my mouth shut about whitey, b/c it pisses this girl off. Eventually,
> we came upon a room containing a fucking tracked military vehicle.
> Even she at this point was like wtf...wtf does a tracked military
> vehicle have to do w/ NAs? ZERO.
>
> We get into a different room, I'm thinking, oh this is getting good.
> We see a bunch of swords. Now, knowledgeable about history as I am I
> was immediately skeptical that these were native american swords. Sure
> enough, one had an escription "fabrica Toledo" on it. Yep, Spanish.
> All predating the injun technology by 400 years.
>
> This museum also had guns in it, even an Uzi, which, correct me if I'm
> wrong, is made in Israel, and not by Native Americans. By FAR the most
> impressive artifacts were Spanish, coins and weaponry. There was very
> little in the entire museum from natives, excepting a few "art" pieces
> that were so primitive that my 6 year old son has literally done
> better. That is not a joke, either, nor exaggeration; he has. Many
> 6-year olds have.
>
> As we left, this girl was TOTALLY turned off by the thing. She said
> they should give the museum to the Spaniards and make it about their
> history. Another PC multicultural refugee converted by raw fucking
> in-your-face reality, eh? Her words, "complete letdown." Most of the
> museum is either veiled anti-whitey slights about how we "destroyed"
> their asinine ways of life or else it is a dissertation about some
> stupid creation myth involving a fucking beetle or how that atonal drum
> banging dirt stomping is a form of dance that should be respected like
> fucking Shakespeare. There's a lot of writing about how "they believe"
> this or that idiotic shit, like anyone should give a fuck just because
> somebody believes something. Right, I GOT IT that they'd been doing
> these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go ahead
> and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases, just
> like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
> out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
>
> manifestation of what I was telling her when we entered, that the NAs
> were stone-age savage primitives who lacked writing, technology, art,
> even bronze. After we left, hey, let's go to the NASM. I said, here
> we have a contrast, native american vs white man technology. 1903 NA =
> wooden canoe. 1903 white man = airplane.
>
> In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for your tax dollar
> contributions to build a gigantic, gorgeous empty building for injuns
> that I can visit and enjoy laughing at the pathetic "cultures" of the
> people that we displaced. Fuck 'em.
>
> Trav
It must not have been a very good museum.
Ever heard of the Anastazi?
http://www.rebgoldie.com/images/anastazi.gif
Look face it Trav, native Americans are much more artistic and creative
then you think.
I guess you'll have to rub something a bit more potent then cholera
into their blankets next time, your Mom maybe!
suds mcduff
----And, bloodletting continued well into the 18th and 19th centurys.
Check out the painful looking instruments:
http://www.medicalantiques.com/medical/Scarifications_and_Bleeder_Medical_Antiques.htm
h...@nospam.com
wrote:
>
>trav...@aol.cominyrface wrote:
>> > Sure. A lot of it can be seen at the Smithsonian. A place that
>> > apparently the D.C. resident Trav hasn't been yet. No big surprise
>> > there.
>> >
>> > Hal
>>
>> Another big LOL.
>>
>> Are you not aware, hal, that the Smithsonian is a collection of
>> museums, comprising the NASM AND the NA museum, as well as a host of
>> others?
>
>True, but collectively they are known as "The Smithsonian" whether they
>are on the mall in DC or out at Dulles or wherever. And the real issue
>at hand here is not whether or not Hal knows that the Smithsonian is
>more than one building. The issue is you thinking yourself an expert
>on something after spending an hour walking through one such building.
Really, I was wondering what the Smithsonian being in several
different buildings had to do with the fact that they have an
extensive native American art collection.
>
>> Please, go away before you embarrass yourself any further.
>
>You should follow your own advice.
now there's a thought.
Hal
Chas
> I guess you'll have to rub something a bit more potent then cholera
> into their blankets next time, your Mom maybe!
Nobody 'rubbed' anything into blankets-
The blankets you refer to were being stored to re-issue to American troops.
The quartermaster chose the most 'used' blankets to give to the indians- not
because they were infected, nobody knew anything about that- because they
were cheaper than new blankets.
The 'Ward Churchill' story is a lie- been debunked for years.
suds mcduff
Chas wrote:
> "Scary" <model...@msn.com> wrote
> > I guess you'll have to rub something a bit more potent then cholera
> > into their blankets next time, your Mom maybe!
>
> Nobody 'rubbed' anything into blankets-
> The blankets you refer to were being stored to re-issue to American troops.
> The quartermaster chose the most 'used' blankets to give to the indians- not
> because they were infected, nobody knew anything about that- because they
> were cheaper than new blankets.
> The 'Ward Churchill' story is a lie- been debunked for years.
On the plan to use smallpox as a weapon against the Indians; Parkman,
in _The Conspiracy of Pontiac_ (Vol 2, pgs 39-40, in the new Bison
edition) discussed this proposal. The idea, apparently, came from Lord
Amherst, in a letter of orders to Col Bouquet, saying "Could it not be
contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of
Indians? We must on this occassion use every stratagem in our power to
reduce them". Bocquet replied that he would try and use infected
blankets as a means of introducing the disease among the Indians, but
was wary of the effects that it would have on his own men. Bouquet then
proposes using- in "the Spanish method"- a combination of hunting dogs,
rangers and light horsemen, in an effort to "effectually extirpate or
remove that vermin" at little risk to his own men. Amherst readily
agreed, hoping that the use of smallpox infested blankets, as well as
any other method be used that "can serve to extirpate this execrable
race", although he did not think that the hunting dog idea was
practical. Parkman states that there is no evidence that Bouquet ever
used the smallpox plan, although an epedemic raged among the Ohio
Indians "a few months after" the July 1763 correspondence.
This claim is interesting-
In this context of deliberately using disease as a weapon against
Native Americans, the English trader James Adair asserts that in 1738
"the Cherake received a most depopulating shock by the small pox, which
reduced them almost one-half, in about a year's time: it was conveyed
into Charles-town by the Guinea-men, and soon after among them, by the
infected goods." The Guinea-men could either refer to slaves from the
Guinea coast or, and I think more probably, to the slavers themselves.
In any event, the transmission of such goods was deliberate and it also
came at a time of rising tension between Carolina and the Cherokee.
Trade with the Cherokee was halted for about 18 months and when it
resumed the remaining half of the Cherokee suffered another major
epidemic -- this time of suicide as the survivors viewed their scarred
faces for the first time in the mirrors sent as trade goods.
---Interestingly, the US govt tried to inoculate the Indians against
smallpox..
Badger_s
wrote:
Though it's a claim that may have been debunked, why would they come upon a
way to use biological weapons against the enemy and then discard it?
Remember these are descendants of Europeans who liked to throw infected
carcasses over the walls of the castle using trebuchets and catapults
during a siege?
-B
Chas
>> Nobody 'rubbed' anything into blankets-
>> The blankets you refer to were being stored to re-issue to American
>> troops.
> On the plan to use smallpox as a weapon against the Indians;
Actions by noblemen on behalf of their monarch are not what's at question-
using disease as a weapon goes back to throwing dead cows into
fortifications using a big slingshot.
What they were doing in the early eighteenth century is not the same
question as to what was going on after the War between States. Specifically,
the story about introducing used hospital blankets as a deliberate weapon of
war is unfounded. The blankets were to be re-issued to our own soldiers
until the choice came to the quartermaster to provide blankets to refugee
indians. He chose to give them the used blankets instead of new- and give
our own soldiers the new blankets instead of re-issued used ones.
If they had known that contaminated blankets spread disease, they would have
burned them- along with everything else that was contaminated. That was the
method they had for controlling disease. They had no means of controlling
exposure while handling the blankets- preparing them for over a year (of
storage) for use as a biological weapon was unthinkable.
> ---Interestingly, the US govt tried to inoculate the Indians against
> smallpox..
Yup-
and everybody else as well- I have a large smallpox inoculation scar on my
arm. It's not something you see much anymore, but that's quite modern.
Chas
> Though it's a claim that may have been debunked, why would they come upon
> a
> way to use biological weapons against the enemy and then discard it?
Delivery platform <g>
You have a killer disease that you know resides in the blankets used in
hospitals serving smallpox victims. The disease was, at the time, killing
your own troops, and is a hazard to everybody on the planet. You didn't know
enough about disease transmission, and you've been storing the blankets in a
military warehouse for a couple of years.
Suddenly, the thought arrives- 'Hell, we can take those blankets and give
them to the indians and they'll catch our most virulent disease.'?
I don't think so.
> Remember these are descendants of Europeans who liked to throw infected
> carcasses over the walls of the castle using trebuchets and catapults
> during a siege?
Yeah; same guys that'd drop a dead sheep down your well since we invented
wells.
They did it because the dead stuff was nasty- not because they understood
the transmission of disease.
Notice they weren't throwing blankets.
suds mcduff
Chas wrote:
> "suds mcduff" <sudsmcd...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> Nobody 'rubbed' anything into blankets-
> >> The blankets you refer to were being stored to re-issue to American
> >> troops.
> >> The 'Ward Churchill' story is a lie- been debunked for years.
> > On the plan to use smallpox as a weapon against the Indians;
>
> Actions by noblemen on behalf of their monarch are not what's at question-
> using disease as a weapon goes back to throwing dead cows into
> fortifications using a big slingshot.
----OK, fair enough, I didn't know the "Ward Churchill story", I had
assumed you were arguing against the whites using infected blankets as
bio war against Indian tribes in N America.
Badger_s
wrote:
>"Badger_s" <Bad...@south.com> wrote
>> Though it's a claim that may have been debunked, why would they come upon
>> a way to use biological weapons against the enemy and then discard it?
>
>Delivery platform <g>
>You have a killer disease that you know resides in the blankets used in
>hospitals serving smallpox victims. The disease was, at the time, killing
>your own troops, and is a hazard to everybody on the planet. You didn't know
>enough about disease transmission, and you've been storing the blankets in a
>military warehouse for a couple of years.
>Suddenly, the thought arrives- 'Hell, we can take those blankets and give
>them to the indians and they'll catch our most virulent disease.'?
>I don't think so.
Ah. OK, my bad. You don't use a method of using toxins or biologicals that
you can't control. Either you have the antidote or can innoculate your
side, or the agent quickly degrades and doesn't spread (like certain nerve
gases).
>> Remember these are descendants of Europeans who liked to throw infected
>> carcasses over the walls of the castle using trebuchets and catapults
>> during a siege?
>
>Yeah; same guys that'd drop a dead sheep down your well since we invented
>wells.
>They did it because the dead stuff was nasty- not because they understood
>the transmission of disease.
>Notice they weren't throwing blankets.
Yeah. I wonder if smallpox would even be able to encyst or survive in a
pile of blankets. Like many legends there are holes in the story.
Thanks for the clarification.
-B
Chas
> ----OK, fair enough, I didn't know the "Ward Churchill story", I had
> assumed you were arguing against the whites using infected blankets as
> bio war against Indian tribes in N America.
At worst, the idea was discussed- 150 years before the event claimed by
Churchill- which story is the basis for the claim of using biological
weapons on the indians.
As easily, we could claim that the indians were doing the same, poisoning
wells/springs or whatever.
The 'smallpox blanket' story is patently untrue.
Chas
Badger_s
wrote:
You know it's almost universal that man uses biologicals in warfare, from
the poisoned arrows of Brazil and the poisoned spears of the Sho of the
Kalahari, to the actual use of infectious agents.
Someone should write a book. ;-D
-B
suds mcduff
----"Churchill's blanket story" perhaps. You'll note that after it was
discussed as a tactic in the F & I war, there was an epidemic among the
tribes discussed, so certainly the evidence is there that the tactic
was implemented.
trav...@aol.com
> <trav...@aol.com> wrote
> Sure; in fact, that's the first kind I heard of.
Apparently you have heard of more than the Mayans have.
> Not at all- and, as I say, the Mesoamericans were fully aware of the
> principle- they just didn't use it for transport. There wasn't anywhere they
> could use it that way.
No; they weren't. Wheels here were toys and nothing else.
> Yeah- deliberately, and in it's best environment.
> Not something we much did until just a couple of hundred years ago.
> Few of their wooden buildings survive either, but there are good photos of
> them from the nineteenth century. They were very large; complex; filled with
> refined objects made from available materials.
> --
> Chas
We didn't need to kill whales because we had developed sophisticated
meat and agriculture industries. Using wheels.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
>
> Ahh, I see... so it's not the brutal death by torture that you find
> uncivilized, it's that they aren't using a cool device to do it.
No, actually, that was a fking JOKE, moron. Lighten up.
> Since the scope of your knowledge on these cultures comes from spending
> an hour in a second-rate museum, you must understand how some people
> might not put too much stock in your opinion of their merits. Then
> again, you've shown a remarkable ignorance of European culture as well,
> so maybe the problem is bigger.
LOL. No. My knowledge on these cultures is far more vast. Recall
that I told her going in that we were seeing a stone-aged people's
museum.
> And yet of everyone here, you are the one showing the most ignorance on
> all of the cultures being talked about, including your own.
Give me a fucking break. Just where exactly have I been wrong about
ANYTHING?
You are the one making the fucking value judgments. Guilty whitey
shit. The NAs were STONE AGED. That is an archeological FACT. I
don't care if you do not like it. It is a simple statement of a level
of technological progress within a society.
YOU are the one who cannot live with its implications.
> The funny thing is that as much as you try to pass yourself off as some
> kind of grand intellectual, blatently obvious points like this seem to
> elude you on a regular basis. And in this case, it's not just the
> obvious point that you missed. The fact that the cultures you are
> trying to argue as "more advanced" did as much or more of what you're
> berating the "primitive" cultures for seems to have eluded you as well.
Oh, horseshit, and they did it for different reasons at any rate.
Offering up sacrifices because you believe that the rain god will be
appeased is far more primitive behavior than nailbombing for Allah. If
you cannot see why that is, then I cannot help you.
> Once again you flaunt your ignorance as though it were a source of
> pride for you.
>
> The calendar developed by the Mayan empire accurately tracked the paths
> of the sun, moon, venus, as well as several major stars and
> constellations. It accurately predicts the paths of most of these
> objects up until around the year 2010, and it was developed and in
> widespread use long before Spain ever dreamed about the New World. To
> this day nobody is quite sure how they managed such accuracy. But
> there is evidence of complex writing, literature, and advanced
> mathematics.
No, there simply ISN'T. SHOW me the writing. Where are the books?
Where is ANYthing? You idiots seem to believe that they had EVERYthing
that the Euros had but somehow managed to escape discovery of fucking
BRONZE? They DID not have advanced mathematics; this shit is patently
untrue. Whitey *somehow* managed to burn EVERY SINGLE FUCKING piece of
literature??? Even those that'd have been made AFTER the Spaniards
introduced mfing PAPER and the goddamned PEN to these people?
You all fucking idiots ever heard of a waterwheel? Yeah, they had no
fking place to use it. They didn't grasp the CONCEPT, moron.
Their structures, "writing," and ALL OTHER artifacts of their
civilization point to a STONE AGE society. Now, if YOU mistakenly
believe that to mean that they were neandarthals, then it is YOU who
harbor grave misgivings about just what the fuck "stone aged" MEANS.
I have rightly credited the pinnacle of mesoamerican culture to be
roughly akin to early Egyptian or late Sumerian civilization; in fact,
many of the artifacts are an EXACT COPY on a technological basis. ALL
of the things you cite as examples of this great goddamned society were
present in Assyria or Egypt. Ziggurats, aqueducts, heiroglyphics,
tracking of celestial bodies, etc. ALL of it was there. It was just
there 5000 years prior. The Americas were populated by a LESS ADVANCED
peoples.
> The calendars of the Aztec and Inca cultures were somewhat less
> advanced, but still accurately tracked the sun, moon, and various stars
> to a remarkable degree.
So did motherfucking Stonehenge.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> True, but collectively they are known as "The Smithsonian" whether they
> are on the mall in DC or out at Dulles or wherever. And the real issue
> at hand here is not whether or not Hal knows that the Smithsonian is
> more than one building. The issue is you thinking yourself an expert
> on something after spending an hour walking through one such building.
You fucking deranged moron, I considered myself an expert LONG before I
ever set foot in that POS museum. NOTHING I saw contradicts my
original premise.
And, try as you may, nothing YOU say changes anything.
The natives here were stone-aged. YES, even with the fking aqueducts
and the calendars.
That is ALL STONE AGE TECHNOLOGY.
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> rate than were Europeans. If anything, Europe had more disease and
> death due to the crowded living conditions. European medicine at the
> time wasn't all that more advanced, and the useful stuff was generally
> reserved for those who could afford it - a very small percentage of the
> population.
You have struggles understanding things, apparently.
Within 500 years of coming here, we've wiped out smallpox.
Given another 5000, perhaps the NAs'd have done something similar.
> Check out "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared M. Diamond for a good read
> on the subject. He does a really outstanding job of describing the
> factors that led to various cultures developing at different rates, and
> the reasons might surprise you.
Oh, no you motherfucking didn't.
Jared Diamond was wrong, bitch, provably. Apparently, you've
completely missed the rebuttals I've made against his premise, which is
a poorly-hidden apologia as well as no longer consistent with
archeological discovery.
In fact, North America BY ITSELF entirely rebuts his thesis.
All this time, to be honest, I was suspecting that you were using GGS
and the Herb Cannon Method of argument, which is Appeal to Authority.
You should know that I don't respect authority for its sake. You'd
better be able to defend Diamond's position or else you should STFU.
Trav
Trav
trav...@aol.com
> "trav...@aol.cominyrface" <trav...@aol.com> wrote on 27 Nov 2006 12:0:
> > Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not injun,
> > real indian. B/c she's a high-caste
>
>
> Come on, don't disappoint. You've long bragged about the quality of tail
> that you get. Show us! Share!
>
> -- Don
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
> I think in one of my previous lives I was a mighty king, because I like people
> to do what I say. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
Give me an addy and I will email you one.
Trav
Sam the Bam
> Yeah. I wonder if smallpox would even be able to encyst or survive in a
> pile of blankets. Like many legends there are holes in the story.
How long does smallpox survive outside the body?
What is its 'transit time', so to speak?
Sam
trav...@aol.com
> Photos?
>
> Come on, don't disappoint. You've long bragged about the quality of tail
> that you get. Show us! Share!
>
> -- Don
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> Don Geddis webm...@bjj.org http://bjj.org/
> I think in one of my previous lives I was a mighty king, because I like people
> to do what I say. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey
Find them the same place as the pic of me + the exwife.
Trav
Rabid Weasel
Utterly *irrelevant* to the question asked and answered.
(IH)
Rabid Weasel
Circumstantial Evidence by correlation.
(IH)
Tupac Chopra
<trav...@aol.com> wrote:
>Well, I have this on-again, off-again gf who is Indian. Not injun,
>somebody believes something. Right, I GOT IT that they'd been doing
>these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go ahead
>and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases, just
>like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
>out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
>
>I noticed this was much more receptive after actually SEEING a
>manifestation of what I was telling her when we entered, that the NAs
>were stone-age savage primitives who lacked writing, technology, art,
>even bronze. After we left, hey, let's go to the NASM. I said, here
>we have a contrast, native american vs white man technology. 1903 NA =
>wooden canoe. 1903 white man = airplane.
>
>In conclusion, I'd like to thank you all for your tax dollar
>contributions to build a gigantic, gorgeous empty building for injuns
>that I can visit and enjoy laughing at the pathetic "cultures" of the
>people that we displaced. Fuck 'em.
>
>Trav
C'mon Trav, you and I both know her change of heart had less to do
with an intellectual apprehension of the facts of the matter and more
to do with you gettin' your bitch trained. :)
TC, whooomp der it is
P.S. I'd like a pic too
h...@nospam.com
<trav...@aol.com> wrote:
Who invented writing and what was the state of good white folks in
Europe at the time?
Hal
>
>Trav
Wayne Dobson
news:pan.2006.11.29.22.48.52.640864@NO28082SPAM+dayton.net...
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:33:59 -0800, suds mcduff wrote:
>
> >
> > Wayne Dobson wrote:
> >> <trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1164657882.0...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go
ahead
> >> > and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases,
just
> >> > like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
> >> > out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
> >>
that
> >> Trav is referring to?
> >
> > ----You know, the ones the white man cured by letting some blood out,
> > or heating up glass jars and applying to the patient's body. ;^ D
>
> Europeans had inoculations against bubonic plague by the time the
> conquest got under way.
You got any idea how they were expected to have developed cures for diseases
they had never before been exposed to?
--
AKA "Dobbie The House Elf"
Wayne Dobson
news:1164841772....@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Wayne Dobson wrote:
> > <trav...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1164657882.0...@45g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > Right, I GOT IT that they'd been doing
> > > these same gd'd things for thousands of years and shit...fine, go
ahead
> > > and live in dirt with no running water, dying of curable diseases,
just
> > > like people did for thousands of years, you know, before they figured
> > > out how not to and ADVANCED and got civilization and shit like that.
> >
> > Does anyone know what curable diseases the indians where dying from,
that
> > Trav is referring to?
>
> of his ass.
Really? And here's me thinking that he's farting out of his mouth.
> Native Americans weren't dying from curable diseases at any greater
> rate than were Europeans. If anything, Europe had more disease and
> death due to the crowded living conditions.
Quite clearly, as evidenced by the fact that the Indians were the ones
dieing from diseases borne by the Europeans, and not the other way around.
> European medicine at the
> time wasn't all that more advanced, and the useful stuff was generally
> reserved for those who could afford it - a very small percentage of the
> population.
>
> There were no major plagues in the Americas before the arrival of
> Euopeans. High population density and indoor living breeds disease.
Maybe ancient traditions such as throwing urine and faeces out into the
streets, unto passers-by, poor hygiene, poor sanitation, failure to control
vermin, unnatural sexual practises and such-like, might also have had
something to do with it.
> As time went on, people developed immunities to these diseases, and so
> could be carriers for many of them without actually getting sick. The
> natives in the Americas, having never been exposed before, had
> absolutely no immunity to them, and no experience with even the types
> of diseases that result from high density populations.
>
> Check out "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared M. Diamond for a good read
> on the subject.
Cool. I'll check it out.
> He does a really outstanding job of describing the
> factors that led to various cultures developing at different rates, and
> the reasons might surprise you.
I'll be pleasently surprised, to find myself surprised, if it does happen.
I've already figured that the reasons are more complex than the simplistic
nonsense that Trav is presenting.
Chas
> No, there simply ISN'T. SHOW me the writing. Where are the books?
> Spaniards
> introduced mfing PAPER and the goddamned PEN to these people?
This is a popular kind of survey about the codices
http://www.mayadiscovery.com/ing/history/default.htm
You'll notice they speak of the large numbers burned- and the few that
remain as any evidence at all of the level of literacy that they enjoyed.
> So did motherfucking Stonehenge.
Kinda, maybe-
that's what they posit the post holes were for- but there's no hard
evidence.
As contrasted with our knowledge of the Mayan and Aztec calendars- which the
Dresden Codex seems to translate for us.
Rabid Weasel
You asked, I answered. Don't piss and moan because you don't like the
answer.
(IH)
Rabid Weasel
> Quite clearly, as evidenced by the fact that the Indians were the ones
> dieing from diseases borne by the Europeans, and not the other way around.
False. Europeans "took home" some nifty STD's and spread 'em around
the population. Killed untold numbers. Still harming folks today.
(IH)
suds mcduff
----Well, then, maybe you should have cut my response to the original
question, and I wouldn't have bothered replying. I'm pretty much done
with you, I'll only respond when you reply to my posts.
Wayne Dobson
news:pan.2006.12.01.04.11.02.618748@NO5853SPAM+dayton.net...
Hardly on the same scale, as evidenced by little mention of it.
Wayne Dobson
It was a trite answer.
> Don't piss and moan because you don't like the answer.
You must try to wean yourself off weasel phrases. It's not becoming. Your
answer weakens the case, rather than strengthening it.