Martial Skill -> Art -> Sport
grendel
the Sword (excellent book) when the author said something that disturbed
me. He talked about how once lethal martial skill had given way to non
lethal martial arts. As a practitioner of martial arts, I always liked
to think of myself as someone who had no interest in tournaments and
trained strictly for the streets.
I think we all know the history of Judo being created as a safe version
of Jujitsu, the ridiculous display of sport tae kwon do compared to the
deadly korean fighting art it was based upon, and other fighting arts
that were softened into sports. I guess I had never really thought
about how different the martial arts were from their original purpose to
what they are now, and the consequences.
Has anyone ever thought that what was once used for strictly killing
people has softened and adapted to so many other purposes. I don't know
to many soldiers who are concerned with self esteem, weight loss, or a
Yes I can attitude. It's funny that many of the arguments that occur
here are due to our training lying at different locations on the
continuum between martial skill to martial sport. I guess my view is
that regardless of where you lie on this continuum you are getting some
benefit. The only danger is that you might not be getting the benefit
that originally interested you in the art.
I think of the person who gets the crap kicked out of him when he
realizes too late that point fighting, or even kickboxing for that
matter is rarely the best way to handle a street fight. The inverse is
the mother who takes her son to a karate studio for some recreational
activity and is horrified to hear her boy taught how to gouge eyes and
break necks. How many people go seeking one benefit, get another and
don't realize that they aren't getting what they were originally
seeking?
I guess I can accept the loss of the martial skills. I accept that the
had a lot more use in the world when the capacity to kill was needed and
weapons were scarce.. Very few of us are soldiers and the need to kill
is something that many of us will never need to face.
I am a little concerned with the preservation of the martial arts.
Physical confrontations are occasionally are a part of every day life.
I was born into and continue to live in a upper middle class
environment. I did my share of fighting when I was younger, bu now
society looks down on someone like me engaging in physical
confrontations. I am generally expected to be able to deal with
conflicts and problems mentally and verbally as opposed to physically.
Still, the possibility of physical confrontations is what started me in
martial arts 12 years ago and continues to motivate me today.
I see a lot of people get a great deal of enjoyment from martial
sports. I just fear that it may one day completely over lay martial
arts the way martial arts overlaid martial skills. I fear that people
may allow the enjoyment of competition to replace the philosophy,
discipline, and practicality of martial arts.
What do the rest of you think about the Martial Skill - Art - Sport
continuum and the future of martial arts?
Eric Neale
Who wrote that book? It sounds like it belongs in my library. I think
the author was right in that we no longer carry weapons in public and,
as you said, we are expected to find non-violent solutions to our
problems. Yet, there is much violence in our world. Crime is a real
danger that all must guard against. So there is good motive to learn
self-defence and the art of battle.
When it comes to training methods, most modern students must find
spare time in between work, errands and every other commitment we have.
After all, we need to make a living. This means less time is devoted to
practice. However, in many ways we have a training advantage. Today
there is an openess in information that was not possible when martial
arts were the cutting edge of technology. We also have protective
equipment to allow us to spar safely.
Those who are interested in self deffence should find an instructor
who focuses on this. The style is less important than finding an
excellent instructor. Self defence comes from being familiar with all
fighting methods, rather than focusing on only one.
Good luck in your quest - Eric
Eric Neale
NitenRyu wrote:
>
> May I add Kenjutsu that was watered down to Kendo to the list? That was
> for the purpouse of not teaching the foreiners the reall skill. Same for Judo
> and many other styles. I am sure most people here know the storry quite well
> and much better then I do....
> Most people that study martial arts now do it for the sport or think
> that they do it for self-defence while what they learn is not all that
> applicable. But there are people out there who do try and succeed in learning
> and understanding the real purpose of the martial arts, and no, I am not
> afraid that the knowledge will be lost. Just think in terms of the percentage
> of the population that is doing some kind of MA. I'd say a decent
> percentage. If at least 1 percent of these people is getting the real
> knowledge it won't be lost. Those people who take the time out of their busy
> schedule to learn and explore will have the knowledge that they deserve.
> Remember, not everybody in Japan was taught the "secret" teachings, only a
> chosen few. Back then you had to either be born in a family that held the
> knowledge or be perseverent enough to prove your worthness to that family or a
> closed circle of people who had the skill.
> Now the criteria is different. The information is all out there and more
> of it is being opened to the public. Yes, it takes commitment to find it and
> it takes even more commitment to learn it. It takes intelligence not to be
> close minded about what you learn, courage to accept one's mistakes and
> patience to corect them. Ego kills a martial artist (credit to my sensei for
> making me understand that). So "the way" is out there and it's totally up to
> the martial artist to find it. I know there are people here who did or will
> and I know there will always be many more others who never will but the few
> that do will preserve the art in a way that it was ment to be.
> I wrote this not as a moral to others, I still have a long way to go, a
> very long way but as an expression of my own thoughts on the subject. I have
> not seen a decent discussion on this NG for a while and here's a topic that I
> think is worth a few lines. I wait for your opinion, additions and comments.
>
> Vadim -> trying hard to put on paper (or better yet bits and bytes) what he
> spends quite a lot of time thinking about when he should be preparing for his
> upcoming exams :-)
Good point! - Thanks.
Eric Neale
>
> I am all for non-violent solutions, if they can be found. But I always
> carry a weapon in public. It's called a tactical folding pocketknife. It
> clips to my pocket, opens easily with one hand, and yet is legal where I
> live. Everybody who is seriously interested in self-defense should carry
> one, and learn how to use it offensively and defend against it. Filipino
> martial arts would be a good place to start.
>
> Russ
Lucky you!!!
California has all sorts of strange laws regarding weapons. The
legislators seem to think that prohibiting traditional asian weapons
will reduce crime. Statisticaly speaking, I think pistols are the
weapons criminals use most. How many liquor stores are robbed by somone
carring a tonfa or nunchucks? About two years ago somone was carring a
katana and the police turned it into a stand-off. It was so strange
that it made the local news in prime time. California does allow knives
to be carred as long as they arn't concealed, but what good does that
do? If a criminal sees somone carring a knife - well it is bad to bring
a knife to a gun fight.
I have great respect for the Filipino arts. I like the way they handle
weapons. I just wish there was a school near me.
Just Jules
sense that tournaments are in no way a parallel to "the streets". The
concept of training to score points simply baffles me. I train and teach
Okinawan Goju Ryu, no points, just the real deal. That includes the
philosophical aspects, history, and everything else that seems to be missing
from today's "McDojos". I know that if someone puts a hand on me, I'm gonna
break something. How many points is that ???? :-) On the street, there is
no "round 2". There are NO rules. Always remember: The other guy is really
trying to HURT YOU. There are many things you can "get" out of martial
arts. NEVER forget what "martial" means, and ALWAYS include that in your
training, or you might as well be dancing.----Jules
grendel wrote in message <36F057B7...@stlnet.com>...
Russell L. Rader
<36F07C...@ocsnet.net>...
> Very thoughtful of you Grendel. Different people seek different goals.
> Who wrote that book? It sounds like it belongs in my library. I think
> the author was right in that we no longer carry weapons in public and,
> as you said, we are expected to find non-violent solutions to our
> problems.
David Kay
to see what I can learn. One thing I have learned is that some people claim
that martial arts such as TKD are not particularly useful for
street-fighting. I guess that, regardless of the martial art, this probably
depends a lot on how you are trained, although I'm sure some are more
effective than others in many situations.
It seems to me though, even training that is almost completely
sports-oriented would be of some use in real-world fights. Just learning
the basics of how to punch and kick properly is more than most people know.
Also, most people that go to pieces in a fight seem to do so because they
are scared of getting hurt. I would think that the experience of having
other people trying to strike you, even in the context of a sporting
competition, would be of some help in overcoming this. I think even with my
limited training (only a couple of months) I am probably marginally better
able to defend myself than I was prior to starting.
If my only goal was to become an unstoppable killing machine, then I would
probably be studying a different martial art, but my goals are numerous, and
self-defence is only one of them. Two thousand years ago in Korea, most
people probably got far more exercise than I do, so the goal of fitness
would have been non-existent or at least far less significant. Life then
was considerably more difficult than mine, and I don't think there would
have been a need to contrive situations that demand disciple and
persistence - that would have been a part of every day.
I suppose there are people in Korea who are studying more deadly forms of
TKD than me, but that is probably because they have a need to. Maybe
they're soldiers, or their work involves some level of violence, like
bouncers. But in modern Western society, most of us don't need these
skills.
My understanding is that martial arts were developed for self-defence and
warfare in times that were significantly more dangerous than today - unless
you live in, say, Kosovo. How many people actually end up in street fights,
unless they are looking for them, or for some reason are exposed to
particularly dangerous environments? Statistically, I believe that violence
is far more likely to occur at home.
Times change, and I think it is appropriate that martials arts evolve
accordingly.
Russell L. Rader
<tE%H2.34682$Hn5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
>
> My understanding is that martial arts were developed for self-defence and
> warfare in times that were significantly more dangerous than today -
unless
> you live in, say, Kosovo.
Until relatively recently, most wars were fought using swords and spears,
or at least sharp pointy rocks and big sticks. Not empty hands. Now, of
course, they're fought with things that go boom.
> How many people actually end up in street fights,
> unless they are looking for them, or for some reason are exposed to
> particularly dangerous environments? Statistically, I believe that
violence
> is far more likely to occur at home.
Quite probably true, if you are fortunate enough to work and be able to
afford a home in a decent neighborhood. Some people, unfortunately, are
forced to *live* in "particularly dangerous envvironments".
> Times change, and I think it is appropriate that martials arts evolve
> accordingly.
Evolve, yes. Lose effectiveness, no. People should be able to choose to
train as realistically as they wish to. Some people, such as myself,
aren't interested in the "art" aspects, or the "way of life", or sports or
any of that. My interest is primarily self-defense. Any exercise or sport
benefits are nice side-effects, but only if the self-defense effectiveness
is not sacrificed.
Just my 2¢
Russ
David Kay
<01be70fe$6955fe40$04013012@schroedinger>...
>David Kay <da...@dtk.com.au> wrote in article
><tE%H2.34682$Hn5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
>>
>> How many people actually end up in street fights,
>> unless they are looking for them, or for some reason are exposed to
>> particularly dangerous environments? Statistically, I believe that
>violence
>> is far more likely to occur at home.
>
>Quite probably true, if you are fortunate enough to work and be able to
>afford a home in a decent neighborhood. Some people, unfortunately, are
>forced to *live* in "particularly dangerous envvironments".
Yes. That's why I said "exposed to" rather than "expose themselves to".
Some people have no choice. Perhaps my perpective is a little different
because I'm in Australia, rather than the US, but I can't help thinking that
the danger from violent crime is, for most people at least, probably
over-rated. I thought the rate of violent crimes had dropped considerably
in the US?
Also, all this stuff is relative - I remember reading somewhere that the
living in a modern city, you are something like 50 times less likely to die
a violent death than a few hundred years ago. It could be BS, but it did
make me realize that what we regard as a violent environment could be
relatively mild compared to other periods in history.
>> Times change, and I think it is appropriate that martials arts evolve
>> accordingly.
>
>Evolve, yes. Lose effectiveness, no. People should be able to choose to
>train as realistically as they wish to. Some people, such as myself,
>aren't interested in the "art" aspects, or the "way of life", or sports or
>any of that. My interest is primarily self-defense. Any exercise or sport
>benefits are nice side-effects, but only if the self-defense effectiveness
>is not sacrificed.
I agree. But effectiveness can only be measured in terms of how well it
helps each individual achieve what they are aiming for. What may be most
effective in terms of fitness or discipline may less be satisfactory in
terms of self-defence. One of the things that I like about TKD is that I
believe it addresses a number of different goals for me, including
self-defence. If you have found something that suits your goals, then I
can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that. I see no reason
why various MAs, and variations with individual arts, cannot coexist to suit
different needs.
NitenRyu
Eric Neale wrote:
> Very thoughtful of you Grendel. Different people seek different goals.
> Who wrote that book? It sounds like it belongs in my library. I think
> the author was right in that we no longer carry weapons in public and,
> as you said, we are expected to find non-violent solutions to our
NitenRyu
neighborhoods of the US that would be a good idea also... but not quite legal.
I say encorporate some modern weapons traing into your MA if you have money to
do it, never know when you'll need it :-) But seriously though, I disagree with
Dave that the knowledge and value of martial arts as they were 2000 years ago
should be discarded just like that because it's not always that useful now. In
that case we can just forget about all the martial arts and switch to TAE-BO to
get ourselves into a kick ass dancing shape... /heard that it's a pretty good
workout though/ You can as well say that we don't need books because now we
have TV's and can get ourselves brain washed for 24 hours a day. Sorry but
losing the knowledge is the last thing people should do.
just my 2 cents
P.S. "I don't now what the third world war is going to be fought with but the
fourth one will be fought with sticks and stones..." (can't remember who said
it)
David Kay wrote:
> I suppose there are people in Korea who are studying more deadly forms of
> TKD than me, but that is probably because they have a need to. Maybe
> they're soldiers, or their work involves some level of violence, like
> bouncers. But in modern Western society, most of us don't need these
> skills.
>
> My understanding is that martial arts were developed for self-defence and
> warfare in times that were significantly more dangerous than today - unless
> you live in, say, Kosovo. How many people actually end up in street fights,
> unless they are looking for them, or for some reason are exposed to
> particularly dangerous environments? Statistically, I believe that violence
> is far more likely to occur at home.
>
David Kay
>In Kosovo you need an AK-47 or better yet a tank... On the streets of some
>neighborhoods of the US that would be a good idea also... but not quite
legal.
>I say encorporate some modern weapons traing into your MA if you have money
to
>do it, never know when you'll need it :-) But seriously though, I disagree
with
>Dave that the knowledge and value of martial arts as they were 2000 years
ago
>should be discarded just like that because it's not always that useful now.
In
>that case we can just forget about all the martial arts and switch to
TAE-BO to
>get ourselves into a kick ass dancing shape... /heard that it's a pretty
good
>workout though/ You can as well say that we don't need books because now
we
>have TV's and can get ourselves brain washed for 24 hours a day. Sorry but
>losing the knowledge is the last thing people should do.
Perhaps I was not entirely clear. My point was not that ancient knowledge
should be discarded, but that for many (most?) martial artists today it is
less important. If someone is interested in pursuing this kind of knowledge
then I have no problem with that. And, like you, I think it would be a
great loss if it died out.
My point was that MAs are probably used today to serve a wider variety of
purposes than they may have been in the past and so I think it is entirely
appropriate that they change and evolve to suit those purposes. But I don't
think that because, say, TKD or Judo are often taught as a sport, that they
should no longer also be taught for effective fighting for those who are
interested.
NitenRyu
> But I don't
> think that because, say, TKD or Judo are often taught as a sport, that they
> should no longer also be taught for effective fighting for those who are
> interested.
I am sorry but if a martial art is taught as a sport and has evolved to be
suited for a sport /safety, techniques, etc/ how can it be taught for effective
fighting for? I think what you mean here is that if TKD and Judo are taught as
a sport it's fine if this is what people who are taking the art are interested
in (and I can't disagree with you on that one).
Vadim
David Kay
Take TKD, for example. Obviously, it can be taught as a sport, with
suitable training, such as sparring according to WTF rules, crowd-pleasing
high kicks, defending only or mainly against a competitor who also abides by
the rules, and lots of forms. On the other hand, I think that it can also
be taught effectively for fighting, with limited or no sparring rules, more
focus on punches and low kicks (including punches to the face), defending
against a variety of types of attack with and without weapons, and little or
no emphasis on forms.
Russell L. Rader
> Russell L. Rader wrote in message
> <01be70fe$6955fe40$04013012@schroedinger>...
>
> >David Kay <da...@dtk.com.au> wrote in article
> ><tE%H2.34682$Hn5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> >>
> >> unless they are looking for them, or for some reason are exposed to
> >> particularly dangerous environments? Statistically, I believe that
> >violence
> >> is far more likely to occur at home.
> >
> >afford a home in a decent neighborhood. Some people, unfortunately, are
> >forced to *live* in "particularly dangerous envvironments".
>
> Yes. That's why I said "exposed to" rather than "expose themselves to".
> Some people have no choice. Perhaps my perpective is a little different
> because I'm in Australia, rather than the US, but I can't help thinking
that
> the danger from violent crime is, for most people at least, probably
> over-rated. I thought the rate of violent crimes had dropped
considerably
> in the US?
True, I think. I've never been in a really violent situation so far,
because I know how to stay out of trouble. Well, except for here on RMA.
;-)
> >> Times change, and I think it is appropriate that martials arts evolve
> >> accordingly.
> >
> >Evolve, yes. Lose effectiveness, no. People should be able to choose
to
> >train as realistically as they wish to. Some people, such as myself,
> >aren't interested in the "art" aspects, or the "way of life", or sports
or
> >any of that. My interest is primarily self-defense. Any exercise or
sport
> >benefits are nice side-effects, but only if the self-defense
effectiveness
> >is not sacrificed.
>
> I agree. But effectiveness can only be measured in terms of how well it
> helps each individual achieve what they are aiming for. What may be most
> effective in terms of fitness or discipline may less be satisfactory in
> terms of self-defence. One of the things that I like about TKD is that I
> believe it addresses a number of different goals for me, including
> self-defence. If you have found something that suits your goals, then I
> can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that. I see no reason
> why various MAs, and variations with individual arts, cannot coexist to
suit
> different needs.
OK. Sorry, I thought that you were advocating the conscious watering-down
of MA's for the purpose of making us less "dangerous" to modern society as
a whole. I believe that if someone wants to go so gung-ho that his hands
and arms, feet and legs are all rock-hard calloused clubs-o'-death, that's
fine. Or if somebody wants to become Dr. Dim Mak, able to kill with but a
touch, more power to him. *As long as* they can control themselves, of
course. Do I really *need* such knowledge. No, I probably don't *need*
MAs at all, seeing as how I've gotten along just fine without them for so
long. But I find it interesting as all hell, and think that people should
be able to learn it if they want to. Or if they want to learn for sports,
exercise or discipline, that's fine too. In some extreme cases (new-agey
taichi, new-agey aikido and Taebo come to mind) it should be made explicit
that it is not a self-defense method, though. Sorry for the
misunderstanding.
Russ
NitenRyu
Maybe, can't express a definite opinion here except for "little or no emphasis
on forms". Forms are quite important and have much more value than you probably
think, especially in the traditional martial arts. Don't render kata as
useless, it's the opposite.
Vadim
David Kay
>In some extreme cases (new-agey
>taichi, new-agey aikido and Taebo come to mind) it should be made explicit
>that it is not a self-defense method, though.
Yes, I agree. I have the impression from this newsgroup that there may be
more of a probblem with dodgy "MA" schools in the US than here. Or maybe
I'm just lucky. My instructor was trained in Korea, and has been teaching
for over 35 years. Few lessons go by without some self-defense work
alongside the usual kicking and punching, and in self-defense we are taught
to protect ourselves and if necessary to hurt the other person as quickly
and effectively as possible. (I would also like to learn the throws, locks,
and chokes from an art like Jujitsu one day, but one thing at a time.)
I didn't make a particularly informed selection. I just went and had a
couple of free lessons and liked what I saw. I've only begun to understand
the quality of my club since I started learning a bit more about MAs. But I
think part of the reason that I appear to have ended up in a good situation
is because we don't seem to have the problem of proliferating McDojos here.
>Sorry for the
>misunderstanding.
No need to apologize. I'm not hyper-sensitive. Today at least.
David Kay
>David Kay wrote:
>
>> Take TKD, for example. Obviously, it can be taught as a sport, with
>> suitable training, such as sparring according to WTF rules,
crowd-pleasing
>> high kicks, defending only or mainly against a competitor who also abides
by
>> the rules, and lots of forms. On the other hand, I think that it can
also
>> be taught effectively for fighting, with limited or no sparring rules,
more
>> focus on punches and low kicks (including punches to the face), defending
>> against a variety of types of attack with and without weapons, and little
or
>> no emphasis on forms.
>
>Maybe, can't express a definite opinion here except for "little or no
emphasis
>on forms". Forms are quite important and have much more value than you
probably
>think, especially in the traditional martial arts. Don't render kata as
>useless, it's the opposite.
Why? This is a serious question - my understanding of their purpose is
pretty vague. (But I do enjoy practicing them.)
Russell L. Rader
> Russell L. Rader wrote:
> >
> > I am all for non-violent solutions, if they can be found. But I always
> > carry a weapon in public. It's called a tactical folding pocketknife.
It
> > clips to my pocket, opens easily with one hand, and yet is legal where
I
> > live. Everybody who is seriously interested in self-defense should
carry
> > one, and learn how to use it offensively and defend against it.
Filipino
> > martial arts would be a good place to start.
>
> California has all sorts of strange laws regarding weapons. The
> legislators seem to think that prohibiting traditional asian weapons
> will reduce crime. Statisticaly speaking, I think pistols are the
> weapons criminals use most. How many liquor stores are robbed by somone
> carring a tonfa or nunchucks?
Anyone with a broomstick, some twine and a drill can make a set of chucks.
I did it when I was a kid. A buddy of mine even put brass rods into them,
for extra weight, and fixed leather thongs with nails on the tips to the
ends, like a cat-o-nine-tails. It was wicked; I loved it. Hehehehe.
Anyway, if kids can make 'em, so can you. Same with tonfa, bo. Kama and
sai may be a little trickier, granted.
> About two years ago somone was carring a
> katana and the police turned it into a stand-off. It was so strange
> that it made the local news in prime time.
Hehehehe... just give a politician an excuse, I swear. How many crimes get
committed by katanas each year? (Except in EisMadchen's precinct, of
course....)
> California does allow knives
> to be carred as long as they arn't concealed, but what good does that
> do? If a criminal sees somone carring a knife - well it is bad to bring
> a knife to a gun fight.
Is a clip-on knife on the edge of your pants pocket considered concealed or
not? Most of them look like pagers, and are easy for the bad guys to miss
if they're not careful. And if you're wearing it on the outside, like you
should be, but your coat just happens to be covering it up? (Little devil
pops up on your left shoulder) Buy one! Do it! (Little angel pops up on
your right shoulder) Oh, go ahead, don't be such a wuss! ;-)
> I have great respect for the Filipino arts. I like the way they handle
> weapons. I just wish there was a school near me.
Where do you live in California? CA is MA central (and blond central). I
wish I lived there.
> Good luck in your quest - Eric
Same to you.
Russ
NitenRyu
and are more experience then me, hopefully the'll post something here ;-)
Sorry, I need to get some sleep. Somebody who supports the traditional opinion
about Kata please help me out! Thanks,
Vadim -> too tired and maybe not knowledgeable enough to give a good to answer
himself
Mikko Rintasaari
: I am all for non-violent solutions, if they can be found. But I always
: carry a weapon in public. It's called a tactical folding pocketknife. It
: clips to my pocket, opens easily with one hand, and yet is legal where I
: live. Everybody who is seriously interested in self-defense should carry
: one, and learn how to use it offensively and defend against it. Filipino
: martial arts would be a good place to start.
: Russ
Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either. Any weapons
tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations. I strive to keep
situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me then I
immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
real lucky with that blade real soon.
And no... I don't carry a weapon (ok... a couple of times I have carried a
rather blunt ninjato, when walking in really bad parts of nasty towns at
night)
-Mikko, the Adept
"thinker, dreamer and adventurer"
**** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - ****
J.A.Hennum
>
> Grendel---Thanks for the very well thought out post. I agree with you in the
> sense that tournaments are in no way a parallel to "the streets". The
> concept of training to score points simply baffles me.
Why should it baffle you?? If you train just for the sport of it, it is
a sport just like any other, be it basketball, figure skating or
anything else. Of course you may have the ability to kick hard and
fast, and you probably have more fighting spirit than the average Joe,
but you still lack something. Most people look at physical exersize
only as that, some take it a step further and make the exersize a sport
by applying rules and in that fashion making them able to choose a
winner. I see no wrong in doing martial arts for sport, as long as the
practitioners are fully aware that they actually *are* doing only a
sport. Of course, it is when they are doing a sport and thinking they
in the process are able to defend themselves that they are on the wrong
track. And of course there is the aspect that not all people actually
want to learn the more lethal parts of a martial art.
--
Jørn Arild Hennum
------------------
my martial arts pages:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~jahennum/martial/maindex.html
Mehran Habibi
"Russell L. Rader" wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I am all for non-violent solutions, if they can be found. But I always
> carry a weapon in public. <snip>
I dunno Russ: I don't think a knife's a good idea for someone like me: I'm
willing to step up and try my turn @ bat if the mood takes me, but I'm not
prepared to cut anybody.
M
Todd D. Ellner
>Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either.
people. The only thing to consider with tools is whether or not they
are appropriate to the use you wish to put them to and whether using them
solves your problem without creating worse ones.
>Any weapons tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations.
Actually, no. In the case of defending oneself against a violent crime
they tend to de-escalate the situation. A criminal who wants your
wallet or unauthorized access to your bodily orifices wants to get what
he wants with a minimum of effort. The research on the subject has shown
pretty clearly that if a potential victim strongly presents and shows
willingness to use lethal force the bad guy does a quick exercise in
classical microeconomic theory and cost-benefit analysis and comes to
the obvious conclusion - whatever he wanted is not worth what he's going
to have to pay for it.
On the other hand, if you are talking about a duel of the sort where guys
attempt to beat each other into submission for status and breeding rights,
you are correct. Chest-thumping -> fighting -> more violence if weapons
are involved. But that's not the sort of thing that we are talking about
here.
>I strive to keep
>situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me then I
>immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
>real lucky with that blade real soon.
You have a damned high opinion of your own abilities. I've asked some
incredibly skilled and experienced people about empty hand vs. knife
(Dan Inosanto, Mike Inay, Willem and Paul de Thoaurs, Rick Faye, Paul
Vunak, Phil Messina, Stevan Plinck, Al Dacascos, and others). None of them
would EVER be blase about that. The standard response is along the lines of
"If he has a knife and doesn't know anything about how to use it take an
effective five years off your training. If he has had a few lessons make
that ten years."
>And no... I don't carry a weapon (ok... a couple of times I have carried a
>rather blunt ninjato, when walking in really bad parts of nasty towns at
>night)
I'm sorry, Mikko, but that is just plain stupid. If you are prepared to use
deadly force that is one thing. If you aren't, don't make threats - which is
what you are doing by carrying a sword around. If you are going to use a
tool in self-defense pick a good one. Otherwise you are letting your mouth
write a check that your body can't cash.
--
Todd Ellner | As the plow follows words, so God rewards prayers.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)493-4431 |
Mehran Habibi
with his server.
*********************
I'm not talking about pulling a knife in a bar fight or pissing match.
I'm talking about pulling a knife when you've been chased into a
dead-end alley by three large young men who intend on killing me. In
other words, I would only use a knife in a last-ditch effort at
survival. And I would only pull it if I intended on immediately
thereafter using it. I would never pull one just for the intimidation
factor; the other guy could pull a gun, and a gun trumps a knife every
time. A knife is such a huge equalizer in situations like these that I
can't see why I shouldn't carry one. A knife nullifies a lot of the
advantages of strength and size. Even though I've never been in such a
situation where I've needed a knife, and in all likelihood never will
be, I consider a decent knife to be a cheap insurance policy against
such possibilities. I'd rather have it and never need it, than need it
and not have it. Besides which, I find the FMA/silat really, really
cool. But that's just me. If you would feel uncomfortable carrying
one, then you shouldn't carry one. It's your call, of course.
Russ
National Capital Marathon
> Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either. Any weapons
> tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations. I strive to keep
> situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me then I
> immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
> real lucky with that blade real soon.
More like, hope he gets real unlucky with that blade, or you'll just die
like a punk.
Todd's comment was more eloquent, but I had to get my two cents in.
Badger
Eric Berge
NitenRyu wrote:
>
> May I add Kenjutsu that was watered down to Kendo to the list? That was
> for the purpouse of not teaching the foreiners the reall skill. Same for Judo
> and many other styles.
Wrong on both counts. Both Judo and Kendo were developed by and for
Japanese,
Kendo long before it was common for foreigners to study Japanese (or any
other
Asian) martial arts.
And, for the n-th time, Judo is not "watered down" Jujutsu. Nor was did
its
development have anything to do with obfuscating "real skill".
> I am sure most people here know the storry quite well
> and much better then I do....
Apparently so.
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
-----------------------------------------
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
-----------------------------------------
Mehran Habibi
Been thinking about your post Russ: what happens when you _do_ get into a pissing
match @ a bar and the guy starts beating the living tar out of you? Are you
_sure_ you wouldn't pull that knife? I'm not.
M
jin...@lps.org
in your assesment of modern martial arts.
Jules - I have to agree with you, ' tournaments are in no way a
parallel to "the streets"'. I also practice Goju. I will admit that
I do enjoy tournanments though. I usually participate, or watch at
least one a year. I really like the entire 'karate festival'
atmosphere. I love to see the other competitors and styles. I think
it is very important to see what other styles and fighters are doing.
We too, practice a serious Goju, and the only problem I have in
tournaments is 'stepping back' from how we train. When you train
hard, you tend to fight hard.
Jim
NitenRyu
links on the matter? Since I seem to be wrong here we need to correct that, right?
So instead of being sarcastic where can I read more on the history of the matter?
Vadim -> ready to correct his mistakes
NitenRyu
teach foreigners Kenjutsu, I should have said that it's a safe version of
Kenjutsu... However I think it is still true that Japanese taught westerners Kendo
but Kenjutsu was kept to the natives. Eric, do you agree with that? I couldn't get
anything on Judo though....
Kendo ("the way of the sword")
Kendo is generally considered a classical budo (martial way), being formulated
before the Meiji Restoration. In its most modern form
it is practiced more as a sport and to improve the mind of the individual, rather
than a form of combat.
In the beginning, kendo was a technique for training in kenjutsu without the bodily
consequences of mistakes inherent in bokken or
live katana or tachi practice (live blades). The standard weapon of kendo is a
shinai, which is a split stave of bamboo with a leather
tip cap and a leather handle. There is no curvature and the shinai is quite light in
weight.
Traditional gi (clothes) are worn, but over this are budogu (fencing armor), similar
to what western fencers wear. The men (a face
mask with throat protector), the do (a breastplate), the kote (gloves and
gauntlets), and a tare (heavy apron). Legal strikes are to the
wrists, the sides of the do, and three cuts to the head (left right and center) and
one thrust (the throat). An defined area (a square
about 10 meters on a side) is the legal mat area, and two legal strikes as called by
judges are required to win a match.
Advancement is done by way of kyu and dan, similar to colored belts in other martial
ways. But the obi (if worn, sometimes deleted)
always remains the same color. At the higher dan levels one is required to show some
minimal competence with a live blade in ten
kata, with both long (daito, katana or tachi) and short (shoto, wakizashi) swords.
Classical ryu have all but disappeared within kendo,
and so the emphasis is much more on the sport aspects.
Grendel
Forms are quite important and have much more value than you
>probably
>>think, especially in the traditional martial arts. Don't render kata as
>>useless, it's the opposite.
>
>
>Why? This is a serious question - my understanding of their purpose is
>pretty vague. (But I do enjoy practicing them.)
>
I think from a street perspective that forms in many cases is the only time
that 1) people practice hand strikes other than punches and 2) people
practice full speed/strenghth strikes. I think forms carry a lot of baggage
because they supplement any martial arts curiculum, but they are a poor
substitute for partnered self defense and sparring.
I use forms as a mental workout as much as a physical. I constantly
visulize my oppentent attacking and lose myself in the combat. I think the
danger is when people believe that forms are all they need to develop a
suitable defense.
grendel
Eric Neale wrote:
> Very thoughtful of you Grendel. Different people seek different goals.
> Who wrote that book? It sounds like it belongs in my library.
Winston L. King was the author. I actually happened to stumble upon in in the
library, but I intend to purchase it for my own the next time I go to the book
store. It traces the Japanese warrior for the early origins through the
Tokagawa period. It definitely ignited a spark in me for Japanese history as
well as helped me apply some of the mental techniques to my sparring.
NitenRyu
"The war after the next will be fought with sticks." -- Einstein.
Vadim -> hoping that people have enough brains not to start the war before next...
NitenRyu wrote:
> <snip>....
Mikko Rintasaari
: Mikko Rintasaari <rint...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
: >Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either.
: people. The only thing to consider with tools is whether or not they
: are appropriate to the use you wish to put them to and whether using them
: solves your problem without creating worse ones.
Let's just say that I dislike the use of weapons of lethal force. I
suppose the situation in your neighbourhood is way different than mine
here in Scandinavia.
: >Any weapons tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations.
: Actually, no. In the case of defending oneself against a violent crime
: they tend to de-escalate the situation. A criminal who wants your
: wallet or unauthorized access to your bodily orifices wants to get what
: he wants with a minimum of effort. The research on the subject has shown
: pretty clearly that if a potential victim strongly presents and shows
: willingness to use lethal force the bad guy does a quick exercise in
: classical microeconomic theory and cost-benefit analysis and comes to
: the obvious conclusion - whatever he wanted is not worth what he's going
: to have to pay for it.
And what if he doesn't? If a guy comes to take my wallet from me I'm
willing to fight for it. If fighting for it means bearing a blade on the
guy I'm not so sure... would I be ready to cut him? If he's clearly out to
injure/kill me, then sure, but if he just wants to rob me I don't want to
face the situation if I happen to cut him too bad and he dies. The police
here don't take too well to that sort of thing.
: On the other hand, if you are talking about a duel of the sort where guys
: attempt to beat each other into submission for status and breeding rights,
: you are correct. Chest-thumping -> fighting -> more violence if weapons
: are involved. But that's not the sort of thing that we are talking about
: here.
Ok... how about this one. A friend of mine was waiting for somebody, late
at night on a railwaystation in Helsinki. He's a rather impressive
individual 190 cm, lean but rather muscular. He was, at the time, also in
the habit of carrying a knife with him. He was confronted by four punk
kids (16 - 20 range) demanding his wallet... all somewhat drunk. My friend
pulled his blade, and told them to take a hike. The idiots didn't mind the
blade and attacked him!!! He told me that he could have easily started
killing them, but _you_can't_actually_do_that_!!! can you? If you can I
bet the streets there are much more "interesting" than they are here.
So my friend found himself in a fight with multiple people, and he
actually had a lot of trouble avoiding cutting them up with his combat
knife. The insident actually cost him a permanent injury into his pinky,
because he ended up cutting himself in the tumble (And this person really
knows how to _kill_ people with a knife)
So, I say again... I don't see much point in carrying a knife in normal
circumstances.
: >I strive to keep
: >situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me then I
: >immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
: >real lucky with that blade real soon.
: You have a damned high opinion of your own abilities. I've asked some
Not really... The kind of people who carry knives and attack people here
don't really know much about fighting. Also, a non MA fighting with a
knife concentrates only on the knife, and doesn't use the rest of his body
effectively. As I said i _hate_ knives, especially coming at me. I still
wouldn't expect to get through the experience without getting cut, and if
I have to go bare hands against a person with a knife I'd estimate to have
an at least 1 in 3 change to get seriously injured/killed.
If I have the change I'll run far enough to get my hands on a suitable
improvised weapon (anything longer than the knife, basically), and _then_
make him regret it. If I'm in the "valley of death" (my back against a
wall, nowhere to run) I'm going to do my best to take that knife from him
and ram it up his arse.
: incredibly skilled and experienced people about empty hand vs. knife
: (Dan Inosanto, Mike Inay, Willem and Paul de Thoaurs, Rick Faye, Paul
: Vunak, Phil Messina, Stevan Plinck, Al Dacascos, and others). None of them
: would EVER be blase about that. The standard response is along the lines of
: "If he has a knife and doesn't know anything about how to use it take an
: effective five years off your training. If he has had a few lessons make
: that ten years."
Indeed.... fighting unarmed against a skilled knifefighter is terrible.
Luckily something I've only had to do at the dojo. I'd estimate my changes
to be someting like 1 in 5 at best. Still, do you like fighting knife to
knife? I'm a fair hand at it, but I still think I'd end up getting cut.
At least hereabouts it's often the case that if I don't pull a knife,
neither does the other guy, even if he has one. I admit this is mostly
true in the fore mentioned chest thumping turf defending situations.
Do you carry the knife in a fast draw sheath or what? I mean, if somebody
tries to rob you with a knife, they probably at least try to take you by
surprise. So I'd probably give my wallet, get a big stick and take it
back... or something in the lines of that.
: >And no... I don't carry a weapon (ok... a couple of times I have carried a
: >rather blunt ninjato, when walking in really bad parts of nasty towns at
: >night)
: I'm sorry, Mikko, but that is just plain stupid. If you are prepared to use
: deadly force that is one thing. If you aren't, don't make threats - which is
: what you are doing by carrying a sword around.
I think you must live on another planet than me, with different types of
humans living with you. I'll tell you that if somebody here pulls a knife
on me, and I pull a 70cm sword with a handguard the blade really doesn't
have to be that sharp. The intimidation really does work. Also I can
_easily_ defend against a knife with a sword I'm comfortable with. Much
more easily when it's rather blunt actually, since I can use it freely,
without having to worry about cutting him up so much he'll die. And I can
still kill a person with a blunt ninjato if needs be.
So you tell me that your self defense solution is to use a knife, at
deadly force? Wouldn't work for me most of the time.
The sword gives me a reach advantage over basically anything on the
street, and gives me the ability to parry and to hit _really_ hard. Even
if rather blunt it's still a bar of steel.
: If you are going to use a
: tool in self-defense pick a good one. Otherwise you are letting your mouth
: write a check that your body can't cash.
Oh I would cheerfully fight a _skilled_ person armed with a sharp knife
with my not-so-sharp ninjato. So, what's the bit my body can't cash?
Russell L. Rader
I would have responded to your last post on this thread, which you directed
to me, but Todd beat me to it, and did a much better job than I would have.
I will respond to this one, though.
BTW, I'm curious. I have zero knowledge of Finnish. Is Mikko a male or
female name? And how old are you?
Mikko Rintasaari <rint...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote in article
<7cs6ae$i8m$1...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>...
> In rec.martial-arts Todd D. Ellner <tel...@cs.pdx.edu> wrote:
> : Mikko Rintasaari <rint...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
> : >Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either.
> : Personally, I don't hate or love inanimate objects. I reserve that for
> : people. The only thing to consider with tools is whether or not they
> : are appropriate to the use you wish to put them to and whether using
them
> : solves your problem without creating worse ones.
>
> Let's just say that I dislike the use of weapons of lethal force. I
> suppose the situation in your neighbourhood is way different than mine
> here in Scandinavia.
I seriously doubt that. I've never felt the need to walk down a street
with a sword, for example. My little, tiny knife will do just fine.
> : >Any weapons tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations.
> : Actually, no. In the case of defending oneself against a violent crime
> : they tend to de-escalate the situation. A criminal who wants your
> : wallet or unauthorized access to your bodily orifices wants to get what
> : he wants with a minimum of effort. The research on the subject has
shown
> : pretty clearly that if a potential victim strongly presents and shows
> : willingness to use lethal force the bad guy does a quick exercise in
> : classical microeconomic theory and cost-benefit analysis and comes to
> : the obvious conclusion - whatever he wanted is not worth what he's
going
> : to have to pay for it.
>
> And what if he doesn't? If a guy comes to take my wallet from me I'm
> willing to fight for it. If fighting for it means bearing a blade on the
> guy I'm not so sure... would I be ready to cut him? If he's clearly out
to
> injure/kill me, then sure, but if he just wants to rob me I don't want to
> face the situation if I happen to cut him too bad and he dies.
Don't pull a weapon on someone unless you intend to use it, of course. If
you want to fight for your wallet, but don't want to cut somebody over it,
then fight the guy empty-handed. Just because you have a knife on you,
doesn't mean you have to use it. Like Todd said, it's just another tool.
And if a knife isn't the right tool, don't use it.
> The police
> here don't take too well to that sort of thing.
They don't take to that here either. Cops like to reserve the privilege of
killing for themselves. But I'd rather be arrested than dead.
He never should have pulled the knife if he didn't have the gumption to use
it. He was stupid. Sorry, but it's true. He could have run, given them
his wallet, fought them unarmed or simply told them to screw themselves.
But he shouldn't have pulled a knife unless he intended to use it to cut
somebody immediately thereafter. And if the knife didn't intimidate the
punks, what makes you think your sword would? It's obvious they were not
thinking clearly. Could you fend off four crazies with your sword at one
time?
> : >I strive to keep
> : >situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me
then I
> : >immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
> : >real lucky with that blade real soon.
> : You have a damned high opinion of your own abilities. I've asked some
>
> Not really... The kind of people who carry knives and attack people here
> don't really know much about fighting.
Would you bet your life on that?
> Also, a non MA fighting with a
> knife concentrates only on the knife, and doesn't use the rest of his
body
> effectively.
See above. And how do you know he's a non-MA? Besides, I bet a street
knifefighter knows more about knife fighting than most MAists do. After
all, he's got on-the-job training.
> As I said i _hate_ knives, especially coming at me. I still
> wouldn't expect to get through the experience without getting cut, and if
> I have to go bare hands against a person with a knife I'd estimate to
have
> an at least 1 in 3 change to get seriously injured/killed.
> If I have the change I'll run far enough to get my hands on a suitable
> improvised weapon (anything longer than the knife, basically)
If you already have a weapon on you, you could skip this step. If there
are no improvised weapons to be found in the area, you'll be skipping this
step anyway. If a knife wielder in your area isn't very skilled typically,
then he wouldn't want to fight a fair fight with another knife-wielder who
actually knows how to use one, right? He might run away. If he doesn't,
at least the odds are more even than if you are empty handed.
> , and _then_
> make him regret it. If I'm in the "valley of death" (my back against a
> wall, nowhere to run) I'm going to do my best to take that knife from him
> and ram it up his arse.
Yes, we agree on something! Defang the snake! Take the knife away, and if
possible damage the guy's arm or hand while you're doing that (preferably
with *your* knife). I'd probably forego the "arse" in favor of eyes or
throat, though.
> : incredibly skilled and experienced people about empty hand vs. knife
> : (Dan Inosanto, Mike Inay, Willem and Paul de Thoaurs, Rick Faye, Paul
> : Vunak, Phil Messina, Stevan Plinck, Al Dacascos, and others). None of
them
> : would EVER be blase about that. The standard response is along the
lines of
> : "If he has a knife and doesn't know anything about how to use it take
an
> : effective five years off your training. If he has had a few lessons
make
> : that ten years."
>
> Indeed.... fighting unarmed against a skilled knifefighter is terrible.
> Luckily something I've only had to do at the dojo. I'd estimate my
changes
> to be someting like 1 in 5 at best.
A Japanese stylist's idea of a skilled knife fighter and a Filipino
stylist's idea of a skilled knife fighter might be a bit more different
than you would think. I've heard stories of Filipinos who make Japanese
style stick or knife "specialists" cry in frustration. Then they start
studying Filipino martial arts for their weapons training. ;-)
> Still, do you like fighting knife to
> knife?
No, I suck at it, but I'm better at that than I would be fighting empty
handed against a knife.
> I'm a fair hand at it, but I still think I'd end up getting cut.
Sure, I'd probably get cut too. I've never been in a knife fight, and hope
to all the gods and goddesses that I never do. But if I have to be
involved in a knife fight, I'd rather have a knife too (actually, I'd
rather have a gun in a knife fight, but that's another thread ;-)). You'd
rather go unarmed against the knife???
> At least hereabouts it's often the case that if I don't pull a knife,
> neither does the other guy, even if he has one.
I wouldn't pull a knife unless I thought my very life was in grave peril.
I wouldn't fight empty-handed without a damned good reason either.
> I admit this is mostly
> true in the fore mentioned chest thumping turf defending situations.
I would agree.
> Do you carry the knife in a fast draw sheath or what?
In my area, carrying a fixed blade knife is illegal. I carry a folding
knife that can be opened one-handed, locks into the open position, and
clips to the edge of my pants pocket for easy access.
> I mean, if somebody
> tries to rob you with a knife, they probably at least try to take you by
> surprise. So I'd probably give my wallet, get a big stick and take it
> back... or something in the lines of that.
If he had a knife, I probably wouldn't fuck with him unless I had a gun,
but that's just me. My wallet may have a lot of money in it, but no matter
how much it contains, I'm worth more than that.
> : >And no... I don't carry a weapon (ok... a couple of times I have
carried a
> : >rather blunt ninjato, when walking in really bad parts of nasty towns
at
> : >night)
>
> : I'm sorry, Mikko, but that is just plain stupid. If you are prepared to
use
> : deadly force that is one thing. If you aren't, don't make threats -
which is
> : what you are doing by carrying a sword around.
>
> I think you must live on another planet than me, with different types of
> humans living with you. I'll tell you that if somebody here pulls a knife
> on me, and I pull a 70cm sword with a handguard the blade really doesn't
> have to be that sharp. The intimidation really does work.
So you're bluffing. All it would take is for *one* person to call your
bluff, and one of three things would happen:
1) you would kill or seriously wound someone.
2) you would have your own sword shoved up your "arse".
3) everyone would know that the sword-carrying looney is a bluffer.
A knife, on the other hand, is more concealable, with the benefit of
surprise. Also, carrying a knife does not have the looney image that a
sword would. I can walk into a classy restaurant, a bank, or the opera
house with my demure little knife on. Can you do that with your sword
(without masquerading as an opera performer ;-))?
Oh, yeah. One more time. Drawing a weapon, any weapon, for purposes of
intimidation, is a dangerous game. (And illegal here. It's called
brandishing.) Your bluffing approach gives a person time to escalate by
drawing his own weapon, which he might not be as hesitant to use as you
are.
> Also I can
> _easily_ defend against a knife with a sword I'm comfortable with. Much
> more easily when it's rather blunt actually, since I can use it freely,
> without having to worry about cutting him up so much he'll die. And I can
> still kill a person with a blunt ninjato if needs be.
A person with a pipe, baseball bat, cricket bat, or whatever, could screw
you up royally. Much less a gang of people so armed, or armed with knives.
You're asking for trouble, legal and otherwise.
> So you tell me that your self defense solution is to use a knife, at
> deadly force? Wouldn't work for me most of the time.
> The sword gives me a reach advantage over basically anything on the
> street, and gives me the ability to parry and to hit _really_ hard. Even
> if rather blunt it's still a bar of steel.
So the cops in your area don't have a problem with you carrying around a
sword on your back? I think you've watched "Blade" too many times. They
got a big vampire problem in Finland?
> : If you are going to use a
> : tool in self-defense pick a good one. Otherwise you are letting your
mouth
> : write a check that your body can't cash.
>
> Oh I would cheerfully fight a _skilled_ person armed with a sharp knife
> with my not-so-sharp ninjato. So, what's the bit my body can't cash?
I think it's the bluffing part he's talking about.
Also, you said that you only take your seven-fly-killer sword with you when
you go to the bad neighborhoods. I carry my knife everywhere. So if I get
into a nasty situation where I'm not expecting it, I'll have a weapon and
you won't.
You need to seriously re-assess your self-defense strategy. And I'm not
saying that just to be a smart-"arse", I mean it with the best of
intentions.
Russ
Eric Berge
wrote:
>Here's what I've found on the web. I was wrong about Kendo being developed not to
>teach foreigners Kenjutsu, I should have said that it's a safe version of
>Kenjutsu... However I think it is still true that Japanese taught westerners Kendo
>but Kenjutsu was kept to the natives. Eric, do you agree with that?
No. There have been plenty of westerners who have studied kenjutsu
from traditional koryu. Well, not plenty, but then, there aren't
plenty of people who want to train in that manner in the first place,
and those types of ultra-conservative schools don't accept every
schmuck who shows up at the door in any case, no matter if he's
Japanese or not. That's not to say that the Japanese don't
discriminate against westerners; they do. But it isn't universal by
any means. Get Kim Taylor or Neil Gendzwill to answer that one in
detail; they're the rma gurus on the subject.
> I couldn't get anything on Judo though....
http://www.rain.org/~ssa/jhistory.htm
...or go to the library and check out "Kodokan Judo" by Jigoro Kano.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Therefore since the world has still
Much good, but much less good than ill,
I'd face it as a wise man would,
o_ \ > And train for ill and not for good.
<| ' ,_|
___/_>____o)____ - A.E. Housman, "A Shropshire Lad"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
NitenRyu
statement that kenjutsu was never taught to westerners. Sorry, English is my second
language after all... My instructor trained with a Japanese sensei and there are some
very serious dojos in the US /Tenshin dojo at Harrisburg, PA would be the one/. However
kenjutsu is by far not as widespread as kendo, and it's probably a lot more common to
see a japanese instructor to teach kendo to american students then kenjutsu.
Thanks for the judo link.
>But it isn't universal by any means.
No, of course not. Nothing is...
Vadim -> going to talk to his instructor to get more on the topic tomorrow
Mikko Rintasaari
: I would have responded to your last post on this thread, which you directed
: to me, but Todd beat me to it, and did a much better job than I would have.
: I will respond to this one, though.
: BTW, I'm curious. I have zero knowledge of Finnish. Is Mikko a male or
: female name? And how old are you?
Male, 185 cm, around 70 kg. Just turned 25 a few days ago. Rather good at
fighting with archaic bladed weapons, a bit less good with modern fencing
foils. The Shinobi staff I've been studying for 3 or 4 years now (I'd have
to check... I'm no good with dates). I've been interested with unarmed
combat for a long time, and dabbled with a lot of things, but mostly just
the theory before Gaeshido.
: > suppose the situation in your neighbourhood is way different than mine
: > here in Scandinavia.
: I seriously doubt that. I've never felt the need to walk down a street
: with a sword, for example. My little, tiny knife will do just fine.
The idea about the sword was that it's _a_lot_ more intimidatin than a
knife. I wouldn't fancy my chances in a knifefight with multiple
opponents, but a sword is such a marvelously unfair thing against knives I
didn't have to worry much.
: > : >Any weapons tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations.
: > Ok... how about this one. A friend of mine was waiting for somebody, late
: > at night on a railwaystation in Helsinki. He's a rather impressive
: > individual 190 cm, lean but rather muscular. He was, at the time, also in
: > the habit of carrying a knife with him. He was confronted by four punk
: > kids (16 - 20 range) demanding his wallet... all somewhat drunk. My
: friend
: > pulled his blade, and told them to take a hike. The idiots didn't mind
: the
: > blade and attacked him!!! He told me that he could have easily started
: > killing them, but _you_can't_actually_do_that_!!! can you? If you can I
: > bet the streets there are much more "interesting" than they are here.
: > So my friend found himself in a fight with multiple people, and he
: > actually had a lot of trouble avoiding cutting them up with his combat
: > knife. The insident actually cost him a permanent injury into his pinky,
: > because he ended up cutting himself in the tumble (And this person really
: > knows how to _kill_ people with a knife)
: > So, I say again... I don't see much point in carrying a knife in normal
: > circumstances.
: He never should have pulled the knife if he didn't have the gumption to use
: it. He was stupid. Sorry, but it's true. He could have run, given them
: his wallet, fought them unarmed or simply told them to screw themselves.
: But he shouldn't have pulled a knife unless he intended to use it to cut
: somebody immediately thereafter. And if the knife didn't intimidate the
: punks, what makes you think your sword would?
The difference is that with the sword I could strike hard enough to
disable, but without cutting them open too much. If I cut somebody who's
drunk of on drugs with a knife, changes are he'll bleed to death later on.
: It's obvious they were not
: thinking clearly. Could you fend off four crazies with your sword at one
: time?
Much better than without it. It would be interesting to try. (work's at
the dojo pretty well... not a part of the training, I admit... just
something I have tested out with my friends.)
: > : >I strive to keep
: > : >situations on nonlethal basis, but if somebody pulls a knife on me
: then I
: > : >immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
: > : >real lucky with that blade real soon.
: > : You have a damned high opinion of your own abilities. I've asked some
: >
: > Not really... The kind of people who carry knives and attack people here
: > don't really know much about fighting.
: Would you bet your life on that?
I'd have to, I think. I still wouldn't want to fight knife-on-knife.
: > Also, a non MA fighting with a
: > knife concentrates only on the knife, and doesn't use the rest of his
: body
: > effectively.
: See above. And how do you know he's a non-MA? Besides, I bet a street
: knifefighter knows more about knife fighting than most MAists do. After
: all, he's got on-the-job training.
I suppose... but the scene here is really rather non violent. It's more
about bluff, and a "believable defence". It doesn't appear that the
"toughs" one meet in the streets here are really that experienced in
fighting... not serious fighting anyway. (This information comes from a
couple of local polisemen I know... luckily this is a quiet place to live
in)
: > As I said i _hate_ knives, especially coming at me. I still
: > wouldn't expect to get through the experience without getting cut, and if
: > I have to go bare hands against a person with a knife I'd estimate to
: have
: > an at least 1 in 3 change to get seriously injured/killed.
: > If I have the change I'll run far enough to get my hands on a suitable
: > improvised weapon (anything longer than the knife, basically)
: If you already have a weapon on you, you could skip this step. If there
: are no improvised weapons to be found in the area, you'll be skipping this
: step anyway. If a knife wielder in your area isn't very skilled typically,
: then he wouldn't want to fight a fair fight with another knife-wielder who
: actually knows how to use one, right? He might run away. If he doesn't,
: at least the odds are more even than if you are empty handed.
I suppose... I just would really have a problem cutting people. Give me a
good stout stick any time... actually, come to think of it, I suppose a
telescopic baton (what are they called?) would work marvelously for me.
Hmm..... Do you know the thing I'm referring to? Basically a handle, that
extends to a short metallic baton... (lacking terminology here)
: > , and _then_
: > make him regret it. If I'm in the "valley of death" (my back against a
: > wall, nowhere to run) I'm going to do my best to take that knife from him
: > and ram it up his arse.
: Yes, we agree on something! Defang the snake! Take the knife away, and if
: possible damage the guy's arm or hand while you're doing that (preferably
: with *your* knife). I'd probably forego the "arse" in favor of eyes or
: throat, though.
: > Indeed.... fighting unarmed against a skilled knifefighter is terrible.
: > Luckily something I've only had to do at the dojo. I'd estimate my
: changes
: > to be someting like 1 in 5 at best.
: A Japanese stylist's idea of a skilled knife fighter and a Filipino
: stylist's idea of a skilled knife fighter might be a bit more different
: than you would think. I've heard stories of Filipinos who make Japanese
: style stick or knife "specialists" cry in frustration. Then they start
: studying Filipino martial arts for their weapons training. ;-)
It's not really japaniese knife training that we do. Rather like some of
the better parts of commando training.. tell you what. I'll ask my teacher
where he picked up the style.
: > Still, do you like fighting knife to
: > knife?
: No, I suck at it, but I'm better at that than I would be fighting empty
: handed against a knife.
ok... I think I'll start thinking about getting that baton...
: > I'm a fair hand at it, but I still think I'd end up getting cut.
: Sure, I'd probably get cut too. I've never been in a knife fight, and hope
: to all the gods and goddesses that I never do. But if I have to be
: involved in a knife fight, I'd rather have a knife too (actually, I'd
: rather have a gun in a knife fight, but that's another thread ;-)). You'd
: rather go unarmed against the knife???
No... I'd like to have a nice blunt instrument for parrying and striking.
Actually if I had nothing I'd improvise by using my jacket, or something
like that. I'd work on binding that knife for just a moment and then hope
I'm right on him concentrating on the knife too much...
Like you, I hope I'll never have to do that in a live situation.
: > At least hereabouts it's often the case that if I don't pull a knife,
: > neither does the other guy, even if he has one.
: I wouldn't pull a knife unless I thought my very life was in grave peril.
: I wouldn't fight empty-handed without a damned good reason either.
Ok... this sounds very sensible to me.
: > I admit this is mostly
: > true in the fore mentioned chest thumping turf defending situations.
: I would agree.
: > Do you carry the knife in a fast draw sheath or what?
: In my area, carrying a fixed blade knife is illegal. I carry a folding
: knife that can be opened one-handed, locks into the open position, and
: clips to the edge of my pants pocket for easy access.
I know of those things... nasty looking stuff... rather effiscient too, I
think. A friend of mine who's much more into self defence gear has a
couple of those.
: > I think you must live on another planet than me, with different types of
: > humans living with you. I'll tell you that if somebody here pulls a knife
: > on me, and I pull a 70cm sword with a handguard the blade really doesn't
: > have to be that sharp. The intimidation really does work.
: So you're bluffing. All it would take is for *one* person to call your
: bluff, and one of three things would happen:
: 1) you would kill or seriously wound someone.
: 2) you would have your own sword shoved up your "arse".
: 3) everyone would know that the sword-carrying looney is a bluffer.
but I'm _not_ bluffing. Actually I'd almost welcome the idiotic attack.
One needs to be a right superman to prevail knife on sword. I wouldn't
have a problem trouncing up somebody so obviously deranged.
: A knife, on the other hand, is more concealable, with the benefit of
: surprise. Also, carrying a knife does not have the looney image that a
: sword would. I can walk into a classy restaurant, a bank, or the opera
: house with my demure little knife on. Can you do that with your sword
: (without masquerading as an opera performer ;-))?
: Oh, yeah. One more time. Drawing a weapon, any weapon, for purposes of
: intimidation, is a dangerous game. (And illegal here. It's called
: brandishing.) Your bluffing approach gives a person time to escalate by
: drawing his own weapon, which he might not be as hesitant to use as you
: are.
It was a ninjato. A nice feature on it was that I could easily carry it
holstered under my shoulder much like a gun. I like long coats, so it was
quite undetectable.
: > Also I can
: > _easily_ defend against a knife with a sword I'm comfortable with. Much
: > more easily when it's rather blunt actually, since I can use it freely,
: > without having to worry about cutting him up so much he'll die. And I can
: > still kill a person with a blunt ninjato if needs be.
: A person with a pipe, baseball bat, cricket bat, or whatever, could screw
: you up royally. Much less a gang of people so armed, or armed with knives.
: You're asking for trouble, legal and otherwise.
The baseballbat would get interesting. I train archaic (european) weapons
though, and it's no different than fighting with a sword against a club or
a mace. I still think I'd be the one knowing what I'm doing.
: So the cops in your area don't have a problem with you carrying around a
: sword on your back? I think you've watched "Blade" too many times. They
: got a big vampire problem in Finland?
they would have a _big_ problem. But when there are cops about, I don't
have to worry about a sword anyway. The cops actually intervene here, and
they carry guns. It's a _concealed_ sword.
: > Oh I would cheerfully fight a _skilled_ person armed with a sharp knife
: > with my not-so-sharp ninjato. So, what's the bit my body can't cash?
: I think it's the bluffing part he's talking about.
but I'm not bluffing. I'm just making the choises very obvious to the
other person. He attacks, he get's hurt, big time.
: Also, you said that you only take your seven-fly-killer sword with you when
: you go to the bad neighborhoods. I carry my knife everywhere. So if I get
: into a nasty situation where I'm not expecting it, I'll have a weapon and
: you won't.
That's guite true. I don't expect to be totally bushwacked usually. I may
have a problem there.
: You need to seriously re-assess your self-defense strategy. And I'm not
: saying that just to be a smart-"arse", I mean it with the best of
: intentions.
I suppose my estimated threat level is lower...
: Russ
that was an interesting post Russ...
-Adept
--
Neil Gendzwill
> Here's what I've found on the web. I was wrong about Kendo being developed not to
> teach foreigners Kenjutsu, I should have said that it's a safe version of
> Kenjutsu... However I think it is still true that Japanese taught westerners Kendo
> but Kenjutsu was kept to the natives.
Kindasorta. Kenjutsu is flat not common *anywhere*.
If you practice koryu in Japan, you're just as much of
a strange dude as if you do it here. And for most of
the stuff, you actually have to train in Japan. Also,
those koryu guys are serious. They're not interested
in you studying their stuff as a hobby. Some of them
flat don't teach non-Japanese. All of them demand the
sort of commitment that is not common to our idea of
studying budo. For an interesting essay on just this
topic, see:
http://www.koryubooks.com/library/dlowry4.html
If you are really interested in sword techniques, I
suggest you seek out a good iaido school. If you are
learning muso jikiden eishen ryu or muso shinden ryu
iaido, you're learning most of the real stuff. It isn't
the koryu experience that Mr. Lowry talks about in the
above article, but technically there's a lot of good stuff.
I'll correct some of the misinformation you got from the net.
>
> There is no curvature and the shinai is quite light in weight.
Shinai typically weigh about 600 g. Swords weigh about
900-1100. Most of the differences result from shape and
hilt length, not weight.
>
> Traditional gi (clothes) are worn, but over this are budogu (fencing armor), similar
> to what western fencers wear.
Not even close to what western fencers wear. OK, we both
wear some kind of a helmet.
> Advancement is done by way of kyu and dan, similar to colored belts in other martial
> ways. But the obi (if worn, sometimes deleted)
> always remains the same color.
There's usually no obi worn (nobody I know wears one), or if
there is one it's the iaido style obi worn over the gi but
underneath the hakama. You have no visual clue as to a
kendoka's rank (other than how well he plays of course).
> At the higher dan levels one is required to show some
> minimal competence with a live blade in ten
> kata, with both long (daito, katana or tachi) and short (shoto, wakizashi) swords.
These are required learning for your very first exam. You
learn the 1st 3 for ikkyu (adult kendoka typically don't test
below that level). You need to know 5 for shodan, 7 for nidan,
10 for sandan and up.
> Classical ryu have all but disappeared within kendo,
> and so the emphasis is much more on the sport aspects.
The koryu people feel that the 10 kata practiced in kendo are a
good representation of the major techniques found in many old
schools. They were drawn largely from itto-ryu kenjutsu. The
emphasis on sport entirely depends on the dojo.
--
Neil Gendzwill www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/sports/muttkendo/
Japanese Sword Arts FAQ: http://www.ii.uib.no/~kjartan/swordfaq/
NOTE: to check my homepage or reply by e-mail, kill my dog
Vadim Tsukhtman
currently studying Teruo Santo Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu. It is nowhere close to a
traditional dojo, however I must say that I have an excelent teacher and this is about as
serious as I can get being a full time student and worrying about paying for my
education. Due to the time constraints I do not have time to do serious research on the
history and so I really aprrecitate your corrections and the time you took to reply to
me. Well, I am off to the dojo :-)
Vadim -> killed your dog. Nice page.
Neil Gendzwill wrote:
> <snip>...
Eric Berge
>
> I was reading a book a few weeks ago by the name of Zen and the Way of
> the Sword (excellent book) when the author said something that disturbed
> me. He talked about how once lethal martial skill had given way to non
> lethal martial arts.
If he is talking about actual military martial arts, then he's wrong,
because the study of things like spear, bow, halberd and riding have
given way to rifle, machine gun, cannon, and tank - which are more
lethal, not less. If he's talking about empty handed martial arts,
then he's exaggerating and oversimplifying, because empty-handed
fighting has been, at best, a pretty trivial part of the professional
soldier's arsenal for thousands of years - at least since the
invention of the pointed stick.
BTW - Just to be clear about what we are talking about, I went and
looked this book up at Barnesandnoble.com - here is the review that
they included with the ad:
Zen - serene, contemplative, a discipline of meditation associated with
painting, rock gardens, and flower arranging - seems an odd ingredient
in the martial psyche of the Japanese samurai. "One who is a samurai
must before all things keep constantly in mind...the fact that he has to
die," wrote a seventeenth-century warrior. "That is his chief business."
But the demands of that "business," writes Winston King, found the
perfect philosophical match in the teachings of Zen Buddhism.
In Zen and the Way of the Sword, King offers a fascinating look into the
mind of the samurai swordsman in a far-reaching account of the role of
Zen in the thought, culture, and the martial arts of Japan's soldier elite.
King explains how the samurai cultivated Zen, relating its teaching of a
free and spontaneous mind to the experience of a warrior in individual
combat, and shows how this allowed them to find the psychological strength
in Zen as they prepared themselves for death. He focuses on the sword -
the soul of the samurai, as it was called - describing how it was forged,
the honor given famous swordsmiths, and the rise of schools of swordsmanship.
And he goes on to trace the role of Zen in samurai life through the peaceful
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, examining the absorbtion of Zen into
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
World War II psychology and broader Japanese culture.
An intriguing account, Zen and the Way of the Sword provides fascinating
insight into the samurai ethos, and the culture of Japan today.
In other words, this book is specific to a) Japan, b) Samurai, and
c) Samurai who were into Zen, which not all of them, by any means, were.
Oh, and please note the underlined portion of that review - why should I
take the practices of a warrior caste which had been at peace for two
hundred years seriously as an exemplar of martial perfection?
I'm not Japanese, not a Samurai (and with no desire to be one; the word
means, IIRC, something like "servant" - I'm not anyone's feudal retainer),
and not a Zen Buddhist. The presumption that in order to practice "real
martial arts" I should live up to the cultural ideals of some medieval
Japanese aristocrat who practices an esoteric Buddhist cult grates
on me.
> I think we all know the history of Judo being created as a safe version
> of Jujitsu
Then we all know wrong, because, for the n-billionth-and-first time,
this wasn't the rationale behind the creation of Judo.
> the ridiculous display of sport tae kwon do compared to the
> deadly korean fighting art it was based upon
Thpfft. It's not based on any Korean fighting art, it's an adaptation
of Shotokan. I won't argue that (on the average - please, everyone,
spare me the stories about how _your_ dojang still does everything the
old fashioned way) it has moved pretty far away from anything resembling
a viable fighting art.
> and other fighting arts that were softened into sports. I guess I had
> never really thought about how different the martial arts were from
> their original purpose to what they are now, and the consequences.
Try this on for size: Those martial arts that _can_ be safely practiced
as sports, generally always _have_ been. Most cultures have some form of
wrestling and some form of fencing - people enjoy competing with each
other. And accepting for the sake of argument that Kendo, for instance,
is in some way "less lethal" than one of the various koryu kenjutsu
styles, what does it matter? It's not like it is a practical fighting
art in this day and age, anyway. Nor is Naginata-do, Jukendo (bayonet
fencing) or Iaido.
> Has anyone ever thought that what was once used for strictly killing
> people has softened and adapted to so many other purposes.
Empty handed martial arts, are, in general, not what anyone uses when
their primary goal is killing their adversaries. They deal with a range
of threat levels starting with restraining Drunk Uncle Fred at parties,
through status-duels between testosterone overdosed young men, to last
ditch, last resort combat against an armed, determined, skilled
assailant.
The vast majority of confrontations that you are going to be called
upon to deal with with empty handed martial arts skills are going to
fall near the low end of that spectrum. I think that you will find
that dealing with the Drunk Uncle Freds of this world using the
Mongolian Death Claw to their spleen is frowned on by most legal
systems.
If you live or work in an environment which you expect to present you
with lethal threat levels, and you don't carry and train with real
weapons - and I mean 20th C. firearms, not halberds and spears -
then you are either suicidal or stupid. Or both.
> I don't know to many soldiers who are concerned with self esteem,
> weight loss, or a Yes I can attitude.
I'm not a soldier, are you? I don't need and don't practice military
skills. CQB skills are a very, very limited subset of military skills,
far less important than, say, map-reading or demolitions.
Martial arts are not (and never have been) equivalent to military arts.
You can be a serious martial artist and train for less-than-lethal
confrontations. If I were a policeman, training in Aikido or Judo
restraining techniques and pins would be exactly appropriate to my
expected use of my martial art; training to fast-draw my sword and
sever limbs would not.
There are plenty of martial arts that have no connection to ancient
military practice. I'd venture, in fact, that the vast majority of
empty handed wrestling and striking styles probably trace their origins
to distinctly plebeian circles.
> It's funny that many of the
> arguments that occur here are due to our training lying at different
> locations on the continuum between martial skill to martial sport.
I think that this is a false dichotomy. The distinction between "martial
skill" and "sport" strikes me as a relatively recent cultural concept.
I suspect that if you presented your little essay here to some medieval
European knight, fresh off of the battlefield of Crécy or Agincourt, and
tried to convince him that participation in jousts and tournaments
(AKA "sporting competition") were somehow detrimental to his fighting
skills, he would probably give you a blank stare and dismiss you as some
sort of lunatic. Ditto the ancient Greeks, for whom sporting competitions
had strong religious overtones, as well as being viewed explicitly as one
of the fundamental ways in which the men of the polis were trained for
war (the ancient Olympics, fyi, included things like the footrace in
armour). My understanding is that a number of the old fencing ryuha
had their own internal competition rules and equipment; I doubt they
felt that this "watered down" their curriculum.
> I guess my view is that regardless of where you lie on this continuum
> you are getting some benefit. The only danger is that you might not
> be getting the benefit that originally interested you in the art.
? The possibility that I might engage in eye-gouging and neck-breaking
(see your next paragraph) is not what drew me to martial arts.
> I think of the person who gets the crap kicked out of him when he
> realizes too late that point fighting, or even kickboxing for that
> matter is rarely the best way to handle a street fight.
Say what? For crap-kicking, I'd go with the kickboxer every time.
He's well conditioned, inured to pain, and knows his stuff works
against a resisting opponent.
Unlike the 20th GrandMaster of the Mongolian Spleen-Crushing Death Claw,
who knows that his teacher's grandfather managed to make the Claw work
some time during the Boxer Rebellion.
> The inverse is the mother who takes her son to a karate studio for
> some recreational activity and is horrified to hear her boy taught
> how to gouge eyes and break necks.
I doubt this happens very often, because I doubt that most kids get
taught this kind of thing, or could pull it off if ther were.
> How many people go seeking one benefit, get another and
> don't realize that they aren't getting what they were originally
> seeking?
How many people have the foggiest notion of what is involved in martial
arts training, without having done it for a while?
> I guess I can accept the loss of the martial skills. I accept that the
> had a lot more use in the world when the capacity to kill was needed and
> weapons were scarce.. Very few of us are soldiers and the need to kill
> is something that many of us will never need to face.
What loss of martial skills? I wouldn't be surprised to find that there
are more people practicing empty handed martial arts at a higher level
than ever before. For one thing, there are more people around now then
ever before, and I suspect that the percentage who are interested in ma
remains pretty constant.
> I am a little concerned with the preservation of the martial arts.
Don't be.
> I see a lot of people get a great deal of enjoyment from martial
> sports. I just fear that it may one day completely over lay martial
> arts the way martial arts overlaid martial skills. I fear that people
> may allow the enjoyment of competition to replace the philosophy,
> discipline, and practicality of martial arts.
I think that your rather narrow view of what constitutes martial arts
excellence is being filtered through a heavy overlay of Japanese cultural
ideals which most of the rest of the world doesn't share.
> What do the rest of you think about the Martial Skill - Art - Sport
> continuum and the future of martial arts?
For one thing, I think that in this context, "skill" and "art" are
exactly synonymous (check your dictionary under "art"; the term "martial
arts" means, exactly, "fighting skill", not "military dancing and
painting"; this annoying semantic game has been coming 'round on RMA
practically on a monthly basis for the five years I've been reading the
group), and that sport competition is not incompatible with fighting
effectiveness.
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Russell L. Rader
<snip a big discussion about carrying a sword(!!!) vs. carrying a knife for
self-defense>
> : You need to seriously re-assess your self-defense strategy. And I'm
not
> : saying that just to be a smart-"arse", I mean it with the best of
> : intentions.
>
> I suppose my estimated threat level is lower...
.... He says, as he straps a sword under his longcoat. ;-) You're not
related to EisMadchen, are you? She wanders around with a sword
occasionally too, from what I hear.
> : Russ
>
> that was an interesting post Russ...
Thanks. It's not too often that I get to discuss the merits of carrying a
sword....
I didn't know that your ninjato is concealable. I still don't understand
the logic of carrying a sword, even a relatively dull one, if you don't
want to cut people. (I'm still just a little suspicious that you're
trolling me. You wouldn't do that, would you? ;-)) Using a dull
knife/sword as a blunt weapon is like using a dull chisel as a hammer.
Just get a hammer. Will the cops care if your ninja sword is dull?
There's probably no legal difference between getting caught with a sharp
sword and a dull one. And I think that depending on the intimidation
factor of any weapon is a *very* bad idea, but it's your call, of course.
If you're not concerned with the legal ramifications, maybe a flexible
telescoping baton would be a better choice given your understandable
reluctance to cut a person. (I'm assuming that such a weapon would be
illegal in Finland.) But to avoid legal hassles and be stylishly armed
anywhere, I'd prefer a good stout walking stick. (I'm assuming that that
is legal.) Something bludgeonish in nature, anyways. Oh, and I'd carry a
knife too. Hehehe....
Russ
Mikko Rintasaari
: > In rec.martial-arts Russell L. Rader <rlr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: > : Hey Mikko,
: >
: > : I would have responded to your last post on this thread, which you directed
: > : to me, but Todd beat me to it, and did a much better job than I would have.
: > : I will respond to this one, though.
: >
: > : BTW, I'm curious. I have zero knowledge of Finnish. Is Mikko a male or
: > : female name? And how old are you?
: > Male, 185 cm, around 70 kg. Just turned 25 a few days ago.
: <<<SNIP>>>
: OOPS! I'm sorry Mikko -- I thought you were a "sister"
: -- please forgive me -- otherwise, I would not have
: rambled on about female issues in my last post to you!
: Sorry about that! I'm so embarrassed!
: --
: ~Murphy
*smiles at the screen*
Would you believe I didn't even notice anything funny about it? I'm not
very hung up on this gender thing anyway (Boring enough I'm straight
though... but tolerant of those that are not)
People put too much weight on gender...
Anyways... your post made a lot of sense, and was interesting.
-Mikko, the Adept
"thinker, dreamer and adventurer"
**** - Hey ape, your planet is dying - ****
PS. I know Mikko sounds like a Japaniese girls name... It's actually from
the same roots as Michael... as in Machael "He who is like God", the
highest arch angel from the old religion from the area of Eufrat &
Tigris... you know, the one christians inherited as arch angel Michael.
Hmm... how's that for a sideline rant :)
J Thomas Howard
> Eric Berge wrote in message <36F2DA5C...@ibm.net>...
>>The vast majority of confrontations that you are going to be called
>>upon to deal with with empty handed martial arts skills are going to
>>fall near the low end of that spectrum. I think that you will find
>>that dealing with the Drunk Uncle Freds of this world using the
>>Mongolian Death Claw to their spleen is frowned on by most legal
>>systems.
I'll have you know that I was taught the Mongolian Death Claw (and it is a
kidney strike, not a spleen strike, BTW) by the last master of an obscure
ancient art---and the last time I killed Uncle Fred (oops---the
second-to-last time, gotta love those zap-the-heart-restart units) it
worked perfectly.
See? There you go---firsthand 20th century knowlege of the Mongolian
Death Claw.[1]
Thomas
[1] As a complete aside, I have a friend who knows a Mongolian Mantis
form. Ouch. Seeing the form, I thought, "That was VERY strange." Then I
heard the justification and saw the applications in regard to the
specific situations it was created for, and I thought, "Ow." Nifty
little form, though rather obscure, IIFC.
------------------------------------
tho...@binary.net
http://www.binary.net/thomcat/
"If you aren't modeling what you are teaching
then you are teaching something else."
David Kay
>The vast majority of confrontations that you are going to be called
>upon to deal with with empty handed martial arts skills are going to
>fall near the low end of that spectrum. I think that you will find
>that dealing with the Drunk Uncle Freds of this world using the
>Mongolian Death Claw to their spleen is frowned on by most legal
>systems.
But it sure gets people talking at parties!
grendel
Eric Berge wrote:
>
>
> In other words, this book is specific to a) Japan, b) Samurai, and
> c) Samurai who were into Zen, which not all of them, by any means, were.
You underestimate the influence of Zen in Japan at the time. Every
resource I have
ever read says Zen Buddhism was a regular part of the Samurai training
prior to and during the Tokagawa
period. Buddhism did replace Shinto as the dominate religion for
hundreds of
years after all..
>
> Oh, and please note the underlined portion of that review - why should I
> take the practices of a warrior caste which had been at peace for two
> hundred years seriously as an exemplar of martial perfection?
You are reading two paragraph book review and treating it like the whole
300+ page
book. That's like purchasing a doctor's bag and attempting to practice
medicine. I'm not trying to sell the book or it's contents by any
means. There was just a statement in it that I found interesting and
started me think of what martial arts means in my life. The book
actually traces the warrior for a much longer period of time. This
"period of peace" contained was the same period that Musashi <sp?>
lived.
>
> I'm not Japanese, not a Samurai (and with no desire to be one; the word
> means, IIRC, something like "servant" - I'm not anyone's feudal retainer),
> and not a Zen Buddhist. The presumption that in order to practice "real
> martial arts" I should live up to the cultural ideals of some medieval
> Japanese aristocrat who practices an esoteric Buddhist cult grates
> on me.
I never said any of the statements in the last paragraph so I hope you
are not
attributing this to me. I do think that as a practitioner of the
martial arts you
have an obligation to show at least a little respect to the history and
conditions
the originated them.
>
> > I think we all know the history of Judo being created as a safe version
> > of Jujitsu
>
> Then we all know wrong, because, for the n-billionth-and-first time,
> this wasn't the rationale behind the creation of Judo.
>
Strange that no written resource I ever read agrees with you. Perhaps
you can
enlightenment to this other "rationale".
>
> > the ridiculous display of sport tae kwon do compared to the
> > deadly korean fighting art it was based upon
>
> Thpfft. It's not based on any Korean fighting art, it's an adaptation
> of Shotokan.
Tae Kwon Do is General Choi's a mixture of Karate and Tae Kyon. He
kept the
Korean way of kicking.
> ITry this on for size: Those martial arts that _can_ be safely practiced
> as sports, generally always _have_ been. Most cultures have some form of
> wrestling and some form of fencing - people enjoy competing with each
> other. And accepting for the sake of argument that Kendo, for instance,
> is in some way "less lethal" than one of the various koryu kenjutsu
> styles, what does it matter? It's not like it is a practical fighting
> art in this day and age, anyway. Nor is Naginata-do, Jukendo (bayonet
> fencing) or Iaido.
I originally typed in rebuttal to your other responses but deleted it,
because I
felt that there was not need to start another silly flame war. My
points were
1) Martial arts has evolved a great deal from their original
purposes-----dispute
this. 2) This has resulted in a spectrum of martial arts styles and
schools that
range from being concerned with street defense to being concerned with
trophies---dispute this. 3) Often people treat martial arts and a
homogenous entity
and don't realize that the skills and benefits received can vary heavily
on the
Skill ->Art->Sport spectrum----dispute this.
I see no problem in training for the street, training for sport or
both. You are the one who has attached values to these and attributed
them to me. My message was not an attack on sport karate or modern
martial arts in any form. So far you seem to be the only one who has
taken it as such.
David Kay
<0rPI2.52522$YV6....@news2.giganews.com>...
>[1] As a complete aside, I have a friend who knows a Mongolian Mantis
>form. Ouch. Seeing the form, I thought, "That was VERY strange." Then I
>heard the justification and saw the applications in regard to the
>specific situations it was created for, and I thought, "Ow." Nifty
>little form, though rather obscure, IIFC.
Personally, I'm just not convinced that I will ever get in a fight with a
Mantis.
Mikko Rintasaari
: self-defense>
: > I suppose my estimated threat level is lower...
: .... He says, as he straps a sword under his longcoat. ;-) You're not
: related to EisMadchen, are you? She wanders around with a sword
: occasionally too, from what I hear.
*a wide smile* Touche! But as said this was only done a couple of times,
when I wasn't very good in unarmed fighting, but quite good with swords.
I suppose the choise had some humor with it as well... I was amused at the
tought of some tought actually pulling a blade on me and seeing me grin
and bear a sword. It's obviously not a practical, everyday solution to
self defence.
: I didn't know that your ninjato is concealable. I still don't understand
: the logic of carrying a sword, even a relatively dull one, if you don't
: want to cut people. (I'm still just a little suspicious that you're
: trolling me. You wouldn't do that, would you? ;-))
I'm not trolling you. It's not _that_ incredible is it? I just knew that I
can scare off / defend agains attackers with a sword... also that I
couldn't without one. The logistics seemed obvious enough. btw... If I had
had a sharp blade, I would have taken that... I just liked the angle that
if I get stopped by polise I can show that it's not sharp and claim that
I'm just taking it to my friend who wants to have a look at it. It's still
at least as good a self defence tool as a tankon, for me anyway.
: Using a dull
: knife/sword as a blunt weapon is like using a dull chisel as a hammer.
: Just get a hammer. Will the cops care if your ninja sword is dull?
I was betting that the cops wouldn't have taken it seriously (at least if
I had been stopped for something else than a fight). I was hoping that
carrying a dull _sword_ around would just seem like having it with me for
transporting it somewhere. But as I said... this was four years ago, and a
very improvised solution. I could have taken a knife, but didn't like the
idea. I wanted to raise the threat level higher than "it's a skinny kid
with a knife". "It's a crazy person with a sword" seemed much better...
:) parhaps I'm just weird.
: If you're not concerned with the legal ramifications, maybe a flexible
: telescoping baton would be a better choice given your understandable
: reluctance to cut a person. (I'm assuming that such a weapon would be
: illegal in Finland.)
It's illegal, but very attractive to me.
: But to avoid legal hassles and be stylishly armed
: anywhere, I'd prefer a good stout walking stick. (I'm assuming that that
: is legal.) Something bludgeonish in nature, anyways. Oh, and I'd carry a
: knife too. Hehehe....
My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
: Russ
Eric Berge
wrote:
>Eric Berge wrote:
>> In other words, this book is specific to a) Japan, b) Samurai, and
>> c) Samurai who were into Zen, which not all of them, by any means, were.
>
>You underestimate the influence of Zen in Japan at the time.
I underestimate the influence of Zen on which social class in Japan at
what time?
> Every resource I have ever read says Zen Buddhism was a regular part
> of the Samurai training prior to and during the Tokagawa
>period. Buddhism did replace Shinto as the dominate religion for
>hundreds of years after all..
No it didn't. Buddhism existed side by side with Shinto, as it does
today. And here's a clue - Zen isn't the only flavor of Buddhism.
>> Oh, and please note the underlined portion of that review - why should I
>> take the practices of a warrior caste which had been at peace for two
>> hundred years seriously as an exemplar of martial perfection?
>
>You are reading two paragraph book review and treating it like the whole
>300+ page book. That's like purchasing a doctor's bag and attempting to
>practice medicine. I'm not trying to sell the book or it's contents by any
>means. There was just a statement in it that I found interesting and
>started me think of what martial arts means in my life. The book
>actually traces the warrior for a much longer period of time.
The problem here is that you don't have a very clear handle on the
question you are asking, which went as follows:
>>Message-ID: <36F057B7...@stlnet.com>
>>From: grendel <gre...@stlnet.com>
>>>I was reading a book a few weeks ago by the name of Zen and the Way of
>>>the Sword (excellent book) when the author said something that disturbed me.
>>>He talked about how once lethal martial skill had given way to non lethal
>>>martial arts. As a practitioner of martial arts, I always liked to think
>>>of myself as someone who had no interest in tournaments and trained strictly
>>>for the streets.
<SNIP>
>>>Has anyone ever thought that what was once used for strictly killing
>>>people has softened and adapted to so many other purposes.
Are you asking if those modern martial arts which derive from actualy
Samurai practice have lost their utility? That's a definite "Yes"
from me, but not because all those wussy Kendo and Naginata-Do and
Iaido types have gotten lazy and soft and wear dresses - it's because
society and technology have changed in such a manner as to make those
skills irrelevant. You will have noticed that Neil Gendzwill has
already said on this thread that modern Kendo techniques are "...a
good representation of the major techniques found in many old
schools".
If you are talking about the most widespread (Japanese, since the way
you have phrased your question pretty much excludes disciplines
deriving from other cultures) empty-handed martial arts currently
practiced - certainly Judo and probably all the various flavours of
Karate - the that's a definite "No". Empty-handed martial arts
weren't any more "used for strictly killing people" back when any more
than they are now; then as now, people with any sort of choice in the
matter used weapons if they were really serious about hurting their
neighbours, just like they do now.
And if you are referring to Karate, the question is completely
meaningless - the Samurai didn't practice Karate. As to whether Karate
is practiced the way it was in Okinawa - In Okinawa when? How would
anyone know? We have next to no information about how Karate was
practiced before about 1880. There's a lot of crap karate out there
(far more, I suspect, than crap Kendo), but there are also a lot of
strong traditional dojo who train now pretty much as they trained
fifty or seventy-five years ago, with emphasis on kata and bunkai,
with throws and pressure point strikes. Karate has only been known
outside Okinawa for about seventy five years, and there are still
strong links to the founders of the various styles, many of whose
first generation of students are still alive and teaching. So the
answer there is "No", also.
> This "period of peace" contained was the same period that Musashi <sp?>
>lived.
Wrong-oh. Musashi lived 1584-1645. But you're close - he would only
have had to be a hundred and sixteen or seventeen years old to have
made it into the 18th C as cited in the synopsis I quoted.
>> I'm not Japanese, not a Samurai (and with no desire to be one; the word
>> means, IIRC, something like "servant" - I'm not anyone's feudal retainer),
>> and not a Zen Buddhist. The presumption that in order to practice "real
>> martial arts" I should live up to the cultural ideals of some medieval
>> Japanese aristocrat who practices an esoteric Buddhist cult grates
>> on me.
>
>I never said any of the statements in the last paragraph so I hope you
>are not attributing this to me. I do think that as a practitioner of the
>martial arts you have an obligation to show at least a little respect to
>the history and conditions the originated them.
If you didn't make any of those statements before (and either you were
implying them, or they were implicit in the book you read), you
certainly did in the next sentence.
I have no idea by what you mean by "...respect for the history and
conditions that originated [the ma]". I'm aware of their history; I'm
aware of the historical and social conditions which gave rise to them;
are you asking me to agree that we should practice these arts as they
were practiced in medieval times? In which case I will say that there
are people out there who do exactly that. Unfortunately for the rest
of your (or your author's) pet thesis about arts "strictly for killing
people", the people who dedicate themselves to studying cultural
fossils like the koryu bujutsu are precisely those martial artists who
are absolutely the _least_ interested in day-to-day self defense in
the modern world. Unless you think that wearing armour and learning
archery and the use of the spear and the halberd has some
applicability in modern combat?
>> > I think we all know the history of Judo being created as a safe version
>> > of Jujitsu
>>
>> Then we all know wrong, because, for the n-billionth-and-first time,
>> this wasn't the rationale behind the creation of Judo.
>Strange that no written resource I ever read agrees with you. Perhaps
>you can enlightenment to this other "rationale".
Well, since you ask, yes - I will be happy to "enlightenment" [sic]
you, and you will be glad to know that my "written resource" trumps
all of yours combined. The following is quoted verbatim from "Kodokan
Judo", by Jigoro Kano (Kodansha, 1987), p.16:
In my youth I studied jujutsu under many eminent masters. Their vast
knowledge, the fruit of years of diligent research and rich
experience, was of great value to me. At that time, each man
presented his art as a collection of techniques. None perceived the
guiding principle behind jujutsu. When I encountered differences in
the teaching of techniques, I often found myself at a loss to know
which was correct. This led me to look for an underlying principle in
jujutsu, one that applied when one hit an opponent as well as when
one threw him. After a thorough study of the subject, I discerned an
all-pervasive principle: to make the most efficient use of mental and
physical energy. With this principle in mind, I again reviewed all
the methods of attack and defense I had learned, retaining only those
that were in accordance with the principle. Those not in accord with
it I rejected, and in their place I substituted techniques in which
the principle was correctly applied. The resulting body of
technique, which I named judo to distinguish it from its predecessor,
is what is taught at the Kodokan.
...and there you have it straight from the founder's mouth: He
created Judo as a method of instructing Jujutsu by teaching the basic
principles that make techniques work efficiently. You will notice
that he doesn't make any reference to removing dangerous techniques.
But don't feel bad; you are only the latest in a long parade of people
here on rma, and I presume in the wider world, to confuse the concepts
of "safe method of practice" with "ineffective technique".
>> > the ridiculous display of sport tae kwon do compared to the
>> > deadly korean fighting art it was based upon
>>
>> Thpfft. It's not based on any Korean fighting art, it's an adaptation
>> of Shotokan.
>
> Tae Kwon Do is General Choi's a mixture of Karate and Tae Kyon. He
>kept the Korean way of kicking.
Wrong. Choi was a nidan in Shotokan; I've never heard that he had any
exposure whatsoever to Tae Kyon (and it's ironic that you should cite
Tae Kyon as a martial antecedent to TKD, since to the best of my
knowledge it is as purely a sport as Olympic TKD). Choi didn't
formulate TKD - he headed a commitee that decided on the name. If you
have ever seen one of the old kwans that were consolidated into the
ITF and later the WTF, you would know that the original TKD kwans were
completely indistinguishable from Shotokan - trust me on this one; I'm
ranked in Shotokan and I trained in a Moo Duk Kwan school for a while.
The current emphasis on hopping up and down on one foot while doing
pirouettes came later.
>> ITry this on for size: Those martial arts that _can_ be safely practiced
>> as sports, generally always _have_ been. Most cultures have some form of
>> wrestling and some form of fencing - people enjoy competing with each
>> other. And accepting for the sake of argument that Kendo, for instance,
>> is in some way "less lethal" than one of the various koryu kenjutsu
>> styles, what does it matter? It's not like it is a practical fighting
>> art in this day and age, anyway. Nor is Naginata-do, Jukendo (bayonet
>> fencing) or Iaido.
>
>I originally typed in rebuttal to your other responses but deleted it,
>because I felt that there was not need to start another silly flame war.
> My points were
>1) Martial arts has evolved a great deal from their original
>purposes-----dispute this.
*shrug* Which martial arts, and which purposes? It's a meaningless
question.
> 2) This has resulted in a spectrum of martial arts styles and
>schools that range from being concerned with street defense to
>being concerned with trophies---dispute this.
*shrug* There have always been a spectrum of styles suited to
everything from training cannon fodder to winning wrestling
competitions. This isn't an evolutionary development; what is new is
this strange compulsion to make distinctions between sporting
competition and training for combat or spiritual growth. I gave (and
you ignored) some examples of periods and cultures that didn't make
these distinctions.
>3) Often people treat martial arts and a homogenous entity
>and don't realize that the skills and benefits received can vary heavily
>on the Skill ->Art->Sport spectrum----dispute this.
I don't dispute it at all. I think you are a prime example of this
sort of silliness - you are, after all, the one who is noodling about
the tragic loss of techniques for "strictly killing people".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
Therefore since the world has still
Jussi Häkkinen
and other professionals only, yet according to police chief (I don't know it
in english, in Finnish: Nimismies) told me, that telescopic baton is legal
to carry. It's just like telescopic skipole, as it comes to law.
I've been giving courses of self-protection (not selfdefence, because I
believe that you've lost if you have to fight), and I think that avoidance
and light armament (coins, dogchain and drumsticks for example, I carry
drumsticks often and I know how to use them) is a best solution, if you need
armament.
Sometimes a cellular phone comes handy...karate is a great thing in such
ways it gives the principles and idea of using everything as a weapon. From
pistol to hiding to walking and so on. Some other disciplines do that also.
Have fun, all!
-Jussi Häkkinen-
Trevor Ross
wrote:
> o_ \ >
> <| ' ,_|
> ___/_>____o)____
> -----------------
Hey, these little guys are cool!
:-) Trev.
Shudawwg
Rintasaari) writes:
>My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
>
>: Russ
>
> -Mikko, the Adept
>
>"thinker, dreamer and adventurer"
Mikko,
I have a suggestion for you:
<blatant advertisement on>
I have a good friend who sells oak or hickory canes under the name CaneMasters
( canemasters.com ). I have worked with him in a videographers capacity since
the inception of his products, and have watched as his system of self-defense
techniques with the cane has matured and grown. With your obvious experience,
using the cane as a sword would be like rolling off a log. Plus it has the
added advantage of having a crook (handle end) large enough to fit around the
neck and sharpened horn for grabbing and takedowns, AND, it's legal to carry,
at least here in the USA. I can vouch for the quality of the wood and
craftsmanship, as well as it's effectiveness. Please visit his website and let
me know what you think.
<blatant advertisement off>
Steve
When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
Mikko Rintasaari
: >My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
: >
: >: Russ
: >
: > -Mikko, the Adept
: >
: >"thinker, dreamer and adventurer"
: Mikko,
: I have a suggestion for you:
: I have a good friend who sells oak or hickory canes under the name CaneMasters
: ( canemasters.com ). I have worked with him in a videographers capacity since
.
.
.
: craftsmanship, as well as it's effectiveness. Please visit his website and let
: me know what you think.
: Steve
will do...
Neil Gendzwill
said in my previous reply.
Eric Berge <e_db...@ibm.net> wrote in article <36F2DA5C...@ibm.net>...
> grendel wrote:
> >
> > I was reading a book a few weeks ago by the name of Zen and the Way of
> > the Sword (excellent book) when the author said something that disturbed
> > me. He talked about how once lethal martial skill had given way to non
> > lethal martial arts.
Zen buddhism is a relatively recent thing, certainly the Japanese had
been killing each other effectively for centuries before these concepts
came along. The tie between religion and swordsmanship came about
more or less in peacetime and is not universal by any means. Some koryu
have religious overtones, some not. The religious ones aren't necessarily
buddhist. Take a guess at the affiliation of one of the most famous of
the koryu: hint, the name is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.
Kendo schools can have a buddhist, shinto or secular slant to them. I
think they're mostly secular, even if they have a buddhist or shinto
shrine at shomen.
> I'm not Japanese, not a Samurai (and with no desire to be one; the word
> means, IIRC, something like "servant" - I'm not anyone's feudal retainer),
> and not a Zen Buddhist.
Here is the crux of the matter, I think. You must examine *why* you
want to study martial arts, and *why* in particular sword-related ones.
If you really want to learn killing techniques and have some fantasy
about being a modern samurai ("heh heh: after the bomb drops I'll be some kind
of bad-ass"), then I think you need some couch time.
Russell L. Rader
>
> : >My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
Good luck. The ones from United Cutlery suck. Fair warning.
Hey Chas. Does your blacksmith friend do swords? >:-D
Russ
es...@excite.com
special gun canes that you might see on a James Bond film? The only reason
you should carry a cane is if you have problems walking.
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Chas
> Hey Chas. Does your blacksmith friend do swords? >:-D
Actually, yes; I have a number of bladesmith friends and some of them do
swords, swordcanes, spears, halberds, armor pieces, chainmail; most
anything that you can come up with.
The operative requirement is always cash- when you want a highly trained
professional with a expensive shop in an expensive building to go to
work for you for a few days or weeks, it costs money.
Good weapons have always been expensive-
Chas
Russell L. Rader
<36F833B5...@worldnet.att.net>...
I'll keep that in mind, in case the IRS refund comes in big this year.
Any word on pictures of the kerampits you guys were working on?
Russ
Mikko Rintasaari
: : >My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
: : Mikko,
: : I have a suggestion for you:
: : craftsmanship, as well as it's effectiveness. Please visit his website and let
: : me know what you think.
: : Steve
Ok Steve, I went to see what they are up to. Very interesting I must say.
Personally I'm not comfortable with the classical cane handle, because I'm
used to fighting with straight blades and staffs (tankon and jo). I have
to say that the manufactoring standards looked real good, and if I lived
any closer (like on the same continent) I'd like to try and persuade them
to make me a straight cane.
It _is_ a very good self defence tool in my thinking, and I vastly
prefer canes to knives. I wouldn't mind getting beaten up with a cane
nearly as much as getting cut or stabbed... I'm sure the police like canes
much more too, and they give you a capasity for a strong parry, unlike a
knife.
My only gripe is actually the mid-heawy hype on the page. One doesn't get
so desensitised to such in Scandinavia. I understand that these people are
running a business, but still...
"Keep in mind that the best way to learn
these techniques is through the Cane
Master video series that can be ordered
on this site or by phone."
I would like to see comebody explain to me how it's easier to learn
canefighting from a video, than from a live teacher, for instance...
and:
"People who have to carry a cane, can
learn how to defend themselves in no time
at all," he says, adding that a 60-year-old
trained cane wielder will have no problem
handling themselves against a 25-year-old
assailant."
Does such wording really work for sales there? Most people I know (non
MA:S too) just get irritated by reading such claims...
But all in all, I wish these people all the luck with their business
venture, and I'm sure many people will be very happy they bought a sturdy
cane from Canemasters.
As I said... give me a good stout stick, and I'll be much happier in a
fight. Thanks for pointing this site out to me Steve, very interesting.
Russell L. Rader
>
> Ok Steve, I went to see what they are up to. Very interesting I must say.
> Personally I'm not comfortable with the classical cane handle, because
I'm
> used to fighting with straight blades and staffs (tankon and jo).
<snip>
> As I said... give me a good stout stick, and I'll be much happier in a
> fight. Thanks for pointing this site out to me Steve, very interesting.
So get a knob-handled walking stick and use Filipino techniques, jodo
techniques, kenjutsu, Irish stick-fighting, savate le canne, the Louisville
Slugger method, whatever floats your boat. It's still better than a
ninjato, in my book. ;-)
Russ
Chas
> I'll keep that in mind, in case the IRS refund comes in big this year.
> Any word on pictures of the kerampits you guys were working on?
I didn't get them before I left and haven't seen him yet-
I looked at several models and made some changes; there will be short
ones and longer short ones (1 1/2' and abt. 2 1/2")- there will be some
with exotic hardwood scales, some with micarta and some that combine the
koppo stick idea (abt. 5/8" tapered and twisted steel) with a hook blade
and finger ring (these things are terrifying!).
We have been paying more attention to the 'mechanics' of the weapon than
to the 'look' of them, so far. When he has the mechanics down, the fancy
stuff is just moments away.
Incidentally, I'm going to sell off all of his prototypes too- there are
ones with too many points, ones that are too sharp, a couple that will
be suitable for people with very small hands and some for people with
overly large hands- my difficulties with the designs have been as
refining a good design and execution- there is nothing wrong with these
pieces.
The koppo sticks are going through the same evolution; the first ones
were a little thin and I like these things to be 'fancy'- the
blacksmithing techniques should be obvious; twisting, upsetting,
tapering, fullered ends, faceting with the hammer, all that. He is going
to make some with pivoting rings like a judges pen also- good stuff.
I'm going to make some soft shot saps; not a blackjack or a cosh, a
gentleman's' weapon. I have a really cool one in my collection;
nineteenth century, belonged to a jeweler- put you to sleep like you
was in your mothers' arms ;-)
I'll get some pictures available just a soon as I can- I don't know
anything about that end of the computer, so it had better be a short
learning curve :-)
Chas
Chas
> used to fighting with straight blades and staffs (tankon and jo). I have
> to say that the manufactoring standards looked real good, and if I lived
> any closer (like on the same continent) I'd like to try and persuade them
> to make me a straight cane.
You're in the midst of one of the woodworking centers of the world and
can't find a stick? Geez, Mikko...
Seriously, you might consider making one for yourself- get a good
hardwood cut and a spokeshave and do anything you want. I did a rosewood
one with silver bands at strategic points- very posh; another in elmwood
(very difficult because of the grain, but that is what keeps it from
breaking), another in birdseye maple (not going to make another either-
what a difficult wood!).
I have put solid brass flagpole finials, antique doorknobs, an ivory
pool ball, and such on them for the heads and various things ranging
from a brass hose nozzle to handmade tapered cones on the tips to plain
rings and rock spikes.
You might take an old house cue, the kind that are made of rosewood and
rock maple, cut it to length and carefully paint it or stain it a solid
color- I put a flagpole finial on mine- you could beat your way through
a wall with it.
> My only gripe is actually the mid-heawy hype on the page. One doesn't get
> so desensitised to such in Scandinavia. I understand that these people are
> running a business, but still...
> snip
> Does such wording really work for sales there? Most people I know (non
> MA:S too) just get irritated by reading such claims...
How else are you going to get someone to spend $40 on a stick? You can
buy a third growth hickory stock cane, already cut to the octagon and
finished to a joiner cut, for US 7.50- couldn't bust one in three
lifetimes- you got to sell the sizzle, not the steak to get that extra
$32.50.
Aren't they taekwondo guys?
> But all in all, I wish these people all the luck with their business
> venture, and I'm sure many people will be very happy they bought a sturdy
> cane from Canemasters.
Truly- it's that little extra squirt of confidence knowing that your
stick has passed the inspection of true cane professionals.
I may order one.
> As I said... give me a good stout stick, and I'll be much happier in a
> fight.
It is no accident that travelers have always depended on a good knife
and a stout stick.
Chas
National Capital Marathon
> >
> > : >My long ambition has been to get a sword cane... *sigh*
>
>
>
Try Atlanta Cutlery. They've got some European style sword canes, and a
reaaaaally cool one using a ninjato.
Badger
National Capital Marathon
> I'm going to make some soft shot saps; not a blackjack or a cosh, a
> gentleman's' weapon. I have a really cool one in my collection;
> nineteenth century, belonged to a jeweler- put you to sleep like you
> was in your mothers' arms ;-)
yeah, mom never was the patient type...
Badger
Mikko Rintasaari
: > fight. Thanks for pointing this site out to me Steve, very interesting.
: So get a knob-handled walking stick and use Filipino techniques, jodo
: techniques, kenjutsu, Irish stick-fighting, savate le canne, the Louisville
: Slugger method, whatever floats your boat. It's still better than a
: ninjato, in my book. ;-)
: Russ
Improviced weapons Russ... Besides I was wery comfortable with that
ninjato, and that my friend, was what it was really about :)
(since nobody actually attacked me)
Chas
> How does a 60 year old beat a 25 year old with a cane?
With finesse, brutality and regret-
> Is it one of those
> special gun canes that you might see on a James Bond film?
More than possibly, less than likely-
Good gun canes cost $800 and up for center fire and probably $300+ for
caplock; I don't know of any repeaters though- commonly they are single
shots- then you're back to the stick proposition. Of course, the steel
barrel of the firearm is a welcome adjunct to a light cane attack.
> The only reason
> you should carry a cane is if you have problems walking.
Not a bad thing in itself- a cane will give you an up on just about
anyone armed with less than a firearm, including a healthy body.
Chas
Steve Perry
Rintasaari) wrote:
> In rec.martial-arts Mikko Rintasaari <rint...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
(snip)
>
>"People who have to carry a cane, can
learn how to defend themselves in no time
at all," he says, adding that a 60-year-old
trained cane wielder will have no problem
handling themselves against a 25-year-old
assailant."
Certainly this is true enough. You know how to use a stick, you can easily
beat the bejeezus out of a guy less than half your age, especially if he
isn't aware you know how to do so. I'd rather have a cane than a knife any
day, and last time I looked, a busted skull will kill you just as dead as a
knife to the heart. Toward the end of his dueling days, didn't Musashi
fight using a wooden sword against a steel blade and win?
As for Cane Masters, I didn't get the video -- they are Hapkido BTW -- but
I bought a couple of their sticks and find them very satisfactory. One was
a gift to a friend on an over-forty birthday, one I kept. Chas is right,
you can buy cheaper canes, or if you are handy and have the time, make your
own, but the hickory sticks from Cane Masters are well-made,
nicely-polished, and the instructor's model doesn't look like a weapon, it
seems just a somewhat heavier walking stick. Put a rubber knee brace on and
you can carry it anywhere in the world. Most places, you don't need the
brace -- live long enough, everybody gets bad knees. A plain-vanilla cane
will pass in some places where a pool cue wrapped in brass and capped with
an eight ball will scream "weapon!" at the local cops. And that crook
offers some nice techniques you can't get with a straight cane, too.
Steve
Todd D. Ellner
>es...@excite.com wrote:
>> How does a 60 year old beat a 25 year old with a cane?
>With finesse, brutality and regret-
--
Todd Ellner | Excess of sorrow laughs. Excess of joy weeps.
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
(503)493-4431 |
Todd D. Ellner
>In article <7d9hlh$8s8$1...@ousrvr3.oulu.fi>, rint...@paju.oulu.fi (Mikko
>I bought a couple of their sticks and find them very satisfactory. One was
>a gift to a friend on an over-forty birthday, one I kept. Chas is right,
>you can buy cheaper canes, or if you are handy and have the time, make your
>own, but the hickory sticks from Cane Masters are well-made,
>nicely-polished, and the instructor's model doesn't look like a weapon, it
Steve, if you want a really nice hardwood cane for just a few dollars
hie yourself down to Oregon Leatherworks on 2nd Avenue just North of
Burnside. They've always got really nice stock canes cheap. The polish isn't
as good, but with some sandpaper, sealer, stain, and a few hours you can
do something about that and save a lot of money.
tony pfeiffer
is straight handle (imagine a PR-24 or tonfa with an overgrown shaft) --
it provides much better and more ergonomic support than a regular cane,
it gives you a place to hide your hand against someone seeking to
"defang the snake," and the short handle is great for work in close --
plus you lose nothing (maybe even gain) in options for the grapple.
Mikko Rintasaari
: reaaaaally cool one using a ninjato.
: Badger
Hmm... interesting (though I actually have a blacksmith friend I can
pester). Do they have a website?
Mikko Rintasaari
: >
: >"People who have to carry a cane, can
: learn how to defend themselves in no time
: at all," he says, adding that a 60-year-old
: trained cane wielder will have no problem
: handling themselves against a 25-year-old
: assailant."
: Certainly this is true enough. You know how to use a stick, you can easily
: beat the bejeezus out of a guy less than half your age, especially if he
: isn't aware you know how to do so. I'd rather have a cane than a knife any
: day...
As would I, but "...learn how to defend themselves in no time
at all..."
is still a bit rich. A good site and a good self defence tool as I said
tough.
: offers some nice techniques you can't get with a straight cane, too.
: Steve
I'm sure about that too... It would just take some getting used to. A
straight one for me thanks, preferrably with a lite swordblade within for
the really serious situations :)
National Capital Marathon
>
> : Try Atlanta Cutlery. They've got some European style sword canes, and a
> : reaaaaally cool one using a ninjato.
>
> : Badger
>
> Hmm... interesting (though I actually have a blacksmith friend I can
> pester). Do they have a website?
>
> -
I got my nice Muslim kris from them, although I don't believe they offer
it anymore.
Badger
Mike Casto
Guro Dan and Cacoy are over 60 (Cacoy, in fact, is almost 80) and I think Gyi
is 60 or over ... if not, he's pretty close.
There are others, of course. These are just the one's that I've seen in
person.
Ask one of them this question.
Mike
In article <WW9K2.21922$EF1.85171299@WReNphoon1>,
es...@excite.com wrote:
> How does a 60 year old beat a 25 year old with a cane? Is it one of those
> special gun canes that you might see on a James Bond film? The only reason
> you should carry a cane is if you have problems walking.
>
> **** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm)
****
>
Mike Casto Assistant Instructor
Asian Fighting Arts Filipino Kali/Indonesian Pentjak Silat
Dayton, Ohio Phone: (937) 293-5520
URL: http://www.guild-hall.com/afa/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Shudawwg
>My only gripe is actually the mid-heawy hype on the page. One doesn't get
>so desensitised to such in Scandinavia. I understand that these people are
>running a business, but still...
>
> "Keep in mind that the best way to learn
> these techniques is through the Cane
> Master video series that can be ordered
> on this site or by phone."
>
>I would like to see comebody explain to me how it's easier to learn
>canefighting from a video, than from a live teacher, for instance...
>
>and:
>
> "People who have to carry a cane, can
> learn how to defend themselves in no time
> at all," he says, adding that a 60-year-old
> trained cane wielder will have no problem
> handling themselves against a 25-year-old
> assailant."
>
>Does such wording really work for sales there? Most people I know (non
>MA:S too) just get irritated by reading such claims...
>
>But all in all, I wish these people all the luck with their business
>venture, and I'm sure many people will be very happy they bought a sturdy
>cane from Canemasters.
>
>As I said... give me a good stout stick, and I'll be much happier in a
>fight. Thanks for pointing this site out to me Steve, very interesting.
>
> -Mikko, the Adept
>
>
Mikko,
Thank you for taking the time to examine the site, and especially for your
input! I value your opinion, as well as that of the other regular posters,
very much.
I am going to print out your review and send it to Mark. He uses an "ad man"
who in my opinion, can go a little over the top(hyperbole), and your pointing
this out will hopefully get him to tone it down a bit.
The effectiveness, again in my opinion, of learning from the video tapes is
pretty high because you are dealing with a very simple weapon, a stick with a
hook on it. I think it's more obvious to those of us in MA since we deal with
body movement for evasion and have a better working knowledge of striking than
those not training in an art; but, if you put a cane in someones hand and then
throw a punch or kick, they are probably going to instinctively use the "stick"
to block, and then strike with. I also agree that, as in any educational
situation, it is always better to learn from hands on experience via an
instructor, than stricktly from a tape.
Thanks again for your input!
Eric Berge
> A plain-vanilla cane
> will pass in some places where a pool cue wrapped in brass and capped with
> an eight ball
Hey, I've got one of those. Carried it for a year and a half after knee
surgery (Long after I stopped needing helop walking).
It's a shame that the walking stick has gone out as a fashionable
accessory for gentlemen; I have a number of nice ones, including
an ebony cane with an anthropomorphic head from Africa, and an
Irish Blackthorn shillalegh.
>will scream "weapon!" at the local cops. And that crook
> offers some nice techniques you can't get with a straight cane, too.
Crook handles are alot more comfortable to lean on if you actually
need walking support, as well as offering some interesting possiblities
for artistic development.
--
Eric Berge
(remove _ for address)
-----------------------------------------
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
-----------------------------------------
Kel620
-------------------------
K.W.
Kel...@aol.com
A. P. Thorsen
>
A heartwarming incident that took place locally a few years ago (no, I
don't have a cite, just some shaky memories of a newspaper article):
Three elderly (70s-ish?) and infirm people on the way from their home to
their car were accosted by a no-account in the prime of life (relatively
speaking). He demanded their money. One of the "helpless" elderly beat
the would-be robber into a shrieking retreat with his/her (I think it
was "her") cane.
But I don't remember anyone mentioning finesse, or regret. Perhaps
they're optional? ;-)
A. P. Thorsen
Real e-mail address:
My last name (see above), at
Michigan State University's initials (msu), dot
the usual abbreviation for an educational institution (edu)
A. P. Thorsen
A. P. Thorsen
>
> es...@excite.com wrote:
> > How does a 60 year old beat a 25 year old with a cane?
>
> With finesse, brutality and regret-
>
A heartwarming incident took place locally a few years ago (no, I don't
TXHAPKIDO
strapping buck who tried to rob an old blind man in a wheelchair. The old
fellow shattered the young guy's elbow. I sure the young guy still remembers
that break! Canes are great defense-ask any Hapkido guy. They also allow you
to board planes first!
Randall
Demon Buddha
> Been thinking about your post Russ: what happens when you _do_ get
> into a pissing match @ a bar and the guy starts beating the living
> tar out of you?
Then you deserve everything you get. If you don't have the
intelligence to stay out of a pissing match, natural selection
is humbly welcomed to come and cull you from the gene pool.
--
-Andy V.
Eventide Forge
Mad Science Inc.
Freehold, NJ
Demon Buddha
>
> Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either.
Bet they don't like you much either. Can you explain
once again why it is you hate inanimate objects? Do
you hate stones? Blue jeans? Fish fillets? I'm very
interested to know what would motivate one to hold a
sentiment as strong as hate for something thats not
even alive.
> Any weapons tend to lead to really nastily escalating situations.
Pure baloney. Firearms have a strong tendency to
squelch escalation rapidly, without shots being fired.
> I strive to keep situations on nonlethal basis,
I believe most of us do.
> but if somebody pulls a knife on me then I
> immideately swich to old shool shinobi mode, and he'd/she'd better get
> real lucky with that blade real soon.
When was the last time this happened?
Demon Buddha
>
> In rec.martial-arts Todd D. Ellner <tel...@cs.pdx.edu> wrote:
> : Mikko Rintasaari <rint...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote:
> : >Personally I _hate_ knives, and am no fan of fireamrs either.
> : people. The only thing to consider with tools is whether or not they
> : are appropriate to the use you wish to put them to and whether using them
> : solves your problem without creating worse ones.
>
> Let's just say that I dislike the use of weapons of lethal force.
Nearly all weapons are capable of delivering lethal force.
The problem lies not with the weapon but with the wielder.
> I
> suppose the situation in your neighbourhood is way different than mine
> here in Scandinavia.
Are people not people in Finland? I recall my aunt Aina as
having been very human. I'm confused.
>
> If a guy comes to take my wallet from me I'm
> willing to fight for it.
So what you're saying is that a wallet's worth risking
being killed over? Perhaps we may wish to reexamine
this theory.
>If fighting for it means bearing a blade on the
> guy I'm not so sure... would I be ready to cut him?
I'd be more concerned with it meaning having a blade
used on me when I offer resistance.
> If he's clearly out to injure/kill me,
And precisely how, pray tell, are you supposed to divine
your opponents intentions? What the hell kind of ninjutsu
are they teaching over there in Finland where stundents
apparently don't get the "usually you cannot know your
opponents intentions a priori" clue during the first 5
minutes of their first day of training?
I suggest you immigrate to the USA and allow a good
teacher to disabuse you of these kooky notions. You're
gonna get hurt one day.
> then sure, but if he just wants to rob me I don't want to
> face the situation if I happen to cut him too bad and he dies. The police
> here don't take too well to that sort of thing.
Sounds like self defense is a no-no in Finland.
> Ok... how about this one. A friend of mine was waiting for somebody, late
> at night on a railwaystation in Helsinki. He's a rather impressive
> individual 190 cm, lean but rather muscular. He was, at the time, also in
> the habit of carrying a knife with him. He was confronted by four punk
> kids (16 - 20 range) demanding his wallet... all somewhat drunk. My friend
> pulled his blade, and told them to take a hike. The idiots didn't mind the
> blade and attacked him!!! He told me that he could have easily started
> killing them, but _you_can't_actually_do_that_!!! can you? If you can I
> bet the streets there are much more "interesting" than they are here.
Did he try to walk away?
> So my friend found himself in a fight with multiple people, and he
> actually had a lot of trouble avoiding cutting them up with his combat
> knife. The insident actually cost him a permanent injury into his pinky,
> because he ended up cutting himself in the tumble (And this person really
> knows how to _kill_ people with a knife)
Sounds like he needs to rethink his strategies a bit.
> So, I say again... I don't see much point in carrying a knife in normal
> circumstances.
I see plenty of reasons.
> : You have a damned high opinion of your own abilities. I've asked some
>
> Not really... The kind of people who carry knives and attack people here
> don't really know much about fighting.
Lesson #1 in knife fighting/defense: you don't have to have ANY
training, nor do you have to be physically coordinated or even be
particularly intelligent to be able to inflict devastating injury
on another person with a knife.
> Also, a non MA fighting with a
> knife concentrates only on the knife, and doesn't use the rest of his body
> effectively.
Lesson #2 in knife fighting/defense: See Lesson #1
> I'm going to do my best to take that knife from him
> and ram it up his arse.
And he's gong to do his best to cut you into luch meat.
Where does that leave you?
>
> Indeed.... fighting unarmed against a skilled knifefighter is terrible.
> Luckily something I've only had to do at the dojo. I'd estimate my changes
> to be someting like 1 in 5 at best. Still, do you like fighting knife to
> knife? I'm a fair hand at it, but I still think I'd end up getting cut.
Forget estimating chances. A waste of time.
>
> So I'd probably give my wallet,
Good doggie.
> get a big stick and take it back... or something in the lines of that.
Bad doggie. Stoopid doggie playing in traffic... jeez.
>
> : I'm sorry, Mikko, but that is just plain stupid. If you are prepared to use
> : deadly force that is one thing. If you aren't, don't make threats - which is
> : what you are doing by carrying a sword around.
>
> I think you must live on another planet than me, with different types of
> humans living with you. I'll tell you that if somebody here pulls a knife
> on me, and I pull a 70cm sword with a handguard the blade really doesn't
> have to be that sharp. The intimidation really does work.
Until you meet up with your first dust head, or that guy who's
so sick to get fixed, or angry at the world that he just don't
give a shit about your puny bullshit sword, and then you're
forced into making a choice you were not ready to make. DUH.
> Also I can _easily_ defend against a knife with a sword I'm comfortable with.
Oh baloney. You don't know the first thing about how
effectively you will be able to defend against an opponent
or weapon you're unfamiliar with until you've actually done
it and come out either alive or dead. It's precisely an
attitude such as yours that will get your ass mowed one
day if you ever actually find yourself on the wrong end of
a threat to your well being.
> Much
> more easily when it's rather blunt actually, since I can use it freely,
> without having to worry about cutting him up so much he'll die.
Either you're nuts, or you need to move to another
country.
> And I can
> still kill a person with a blunt ninjato if needs be.
You can kill a person with your hands if need be.
> So you tell me that your self defense solution is to use a knife, at
> deadly force? Wouldn't work for me most of the time.
I don' think you know what would work for you, but you do
sound like you have a very good handle on how to get
yourself killed.
> The sword gives me a reach advantage over basically anything on the
> street, and gives me the ability to parry and to hit _really_ hard. Even
> if rather blunt it's still a bar of steel.
If I hit you REALLY HARD over the head with a bar of steel,
you would die. I don't think too many people would care at
that point whether or not they were cut. Last I checked,
dead is dead.
> Oh I would cheerfully fight a _skilled_ person armed with a sharp knife
> with my not-so-sharp ninjato. So, what's the bit my body can't cash?
Then you are an idiot. Sorry, but I can't soften it any
more than that. Next time your life is threatened by a
person with a knife and assuming you live to type about it,
come back and tell us all just how cheerful you felt about
facing them with your ninjato. Egad.
Mehran Habibi
Demon Buddha wrote:
> Mehran Habibi wrote:
>
> > Been thinking about your post Russ: what happens when you _do_ get
> > into a pissing match @ a bar and the guy starts beating the living
> > tar out of you?
>
> Then you deserve everything you get. If you don't have the
> intelligence to stay out of a pissing match, natural selection
> is humbly welcomed to come and cull you from the gene pool.
Spoken like someone who back away from every confrontation, beats himself
up over it, and rationalizes it by playing 'civilized'. If you don't want
to fight, that's fine. But not everyone subscribes to your lilly white
world view: sometimes( actually, not for a number of year,
butwhatthethell), a consenting adult male will find another consenting
adult male and they'll beat the living piss out of each other.
Everyone(holier then thou types notwithstanding) gets what they want.
M
Chas
> ....But not everyone subscribes to your lilly white
> world view:
"lilly white world view" (sic)?
I thought that we were the warmongering pricks of the world- are you
sure you don't mean 'yuppiefuck' point of view?
You guys are going to have to get your prejudices squared away- bigotry
is not too logically consistent anyway, but this is ridiculous.
Or would that be another 'lilly white' with which I'm not familiar...
Chas
Russell L. Rader
<3703A393...@www.netlabs.net>...
> Mehran Habibi wrote:
>
> > Been thinking about your post Russ: what happens when you _do_ get
> > into a pissing match @ a bar and the guy starts beating the living
> > tar out of you?
>
> Then you deserve everything you get. If you don't have the
> intelligence to stay out of a pissing match, natural selection
> is humbly welcomed to come and cull you from the gene pool.
Harsh, Andy, harsh! Mehran was just saying that he's not sure that he's
prepared to cut someone. And since he's not sure that he wouldn't try to
cut someone in the heat of battle, he doesn't carry a knife. Which is his
choice. He never said anything about hating knives or anything like that,
like Mikko did. I understand that anti-knife feelings ... um, cut close to
home with you. But Mehran is not the enemy!
Later,
Russ
grendel
>
> > Then you deserve everything you get. If you don't have the
> > intelligence to stay out of a pissing match, natural selection
> > is humbly welcomed to come and cull you from the gene pool.
>
> Spoken like someone who back away from every confrontation, beats himself
> up over it, and rationalizes it by playing 'civilized'. If you don't want
> to fight, that's fine. But not everyone subscribes to your lilly white
> world view: sometimes( actually, not for a number of year,
> butwhatthethell), a consenting adult male will find another consenting
> adult male and they'll beat the living piss out of each other.
> Everyone(holier then thou types notwithstanding) gets what they want.
>
Mehran, I feel like I'm stalking you, but I have to disagree with you here.
I have a great job, a nice salary, a wonderful house, and a beautiful wife.
There are so many negative endings to fights and so few positive ones. I am
not going to get in a physical confrontation with some loser who has nothing
to lose, except that last tooth, if I have any way out. As a black man,
pardon me if I feel uncomfortable with this view being labeled "lilly white."
Mehran Habibi
Chas wrote:
> Mehran Habibi wrote:
> > ....But not everyone subscribes to your lilly white
> > world view:
>
> "lilly white world view" (sic)?
> I thought that we were the warmongering pricks of the world- are you
> sure you don't mean 'yuppiefuck' point of view?
> You guys are going to have to get your prejudices squared away- bigotry
> is not too logically consistent anyway, but this is ridiculous.
> Or would that be another 'lilly white' with which I'm not familiar...
>
> Chas
Lily like the flower chas: you know, field of daisies, picnics in the tall
grass, idyllic lifestyle, that sorta thing? It wasn't the racial sorta
reference you misinterpreted it for.
M
Mehran Habibi
grendel wrote:
I don't fell like you're stalking me: good discussion is good discussion. And
btw, I'm in the same boat you are: I even drive a station wagon(there, now you
know): I don't do that shit either. OTOH, I think it's ok to, so long as the
people involved are both willing partners in the fight. One last thing: I didn't
mean 'white' in a racial context: I mean white as in pristine, etc.
ps - did you read John Gardner's 'Grendel's Tale?"(I could be wrong about the
title: it's been a while)
M
Mehran Habibi
Demon Buddha wrote:
> Mehran Habibi wrote:
>
> > Spoken like someone who back away from every confrontation,
>
> You bet. Unlike some people, I know better than to
> unnecessarily place my life in danger. Anyone who
> wishes to to risk having their head handed to them
> is welcomed to do so.
>
> > beats himself up over it, and rationalizes it by playing 'civilized'.
>
> Don't project YOUR neurosis onto other people; your self
> loathing becomes embarrassingly apparent to everyone.
heh. I see the highly anticipated 'direction less refutations of dummies"
is out.
>
>
> > If you don't want to fight, that's fine.
>
> And now it's all OK?
>
> > But not everyone subscribes to your lilly white
> > world view:
>
> And what precisely is that supposed to mean?
It means that Victorian prisses like you can kiss my ass. The world's not
the neat little garden you'd like for it to be.
>
>
> > sometimes( actually, not for a number of year,
> > butwhatthethell), a consenting adult male will find another
> > consenting
> > adult male and they'll beat the living piss out of each other.
>
> And with a little luck, one will be die for the sake of
> such unmitigated stupidity. With a little more lusk, they
> kill each other.
And _you_ are the civilized one? Besides the fact that the bad man scare
you, what's it to you if two people want to beat beat other up?
>
>
> > Everyone(holier then thou types notwithstanding) gets what they want.
>
> Holier than thou? Oh please, learn to read.
Was there a point to that, or was it a general 'learn to read', like,
'brush your teeth after every meal', 'don't fart @ weddings',
thatsortathang?
M
Chas
> Chas wrote:
> > Or would that be another 'lilly white' with which I'm not familiar...
> grass, idyllic lifestyle, that sorta thing? It wasn't the racial sorta
> reference you misinterpreted it for.
Well, neverfucking mind then :-))
I'm getting skittish in my old age, buddy-
Chas
grendel
Mehran Habibi wrote:
>
> > Mehran, I feel like I'm stalking you, but I have to disagree with you here.
> > I have a great job, a nice salary, a wonderful house, and a beautiful wife.
> > There are so many negative endings to fights and so few positive ones. I am
> > not going to get in a physical confrontation with some loser who has nothing
> > to lose, except that last tooth, if I have any way out. As a black man,
> > pardon me if I feel uncomfortable with this view being labeled "lilly white."
>
> I don't fell like you're stalking me: good discussion is good discussion. And
> btw, I'm in the same boat you are: I even drive a station wagon(there, now you
> know): I don't do that shit either. OTOH, I think it's ok to, so long as the
> people involved are both willing partners in the fight. One last thing: I didn't
> mean 'white' in a racial context: I mean white as in pristine, etc.
I just never heard it use in any other context. I guess I'm just a midwest hick.
Why don't one of you people who live out on one those West Coast beaches invite me
out for a week (free of charge of course) so I can get over my racial sensitivities.
>
>
> ps - did you read John Gardner's 'Grendel's Tale?"(I could be wrong about the
> title: it's been a while)
The book is just called 'Grendel' but yes, it's my favorite book and where I took my
handle from. It changed my whole outlook on religion however, and derailed my plans
for seminary..
Mehran Habibi
grendel wrote:
Great fucking book: I still remember the line "Then he started to cry...(because) if
pretended for one instant that his pain was equal to mine, I really would have had to
him". or some such.
M