Re: KA-bar Usmarines WWII knife
deowll
that aren't the same except for the handle however after some checking I got
the correct carbon steel seven inch blade and the leather washer handle.
As a weapon I suppose this blade is as good as any military issue knife of
about that length. It isn't much if any better than what other countries
use/used nor is it any worse. It has enough of a guard to keep your hand on
the handle and off the blade, a sharp point and the point of balance is
about right. The rest is up to the user.
The seven inch blade is about the same length as my favorite kitchen knives
and sharp and the curved tip should make it about perfect for a general
purpose knife except....This is a thick hunk of steel and the taper only
goes so far. It is ruggedized for military types who like to abuse blades.
The metal butt could smash a concrete block though only a person who doesn't
think is going to use it to drive a nail. If you need to hammer on something
or pound it no harm should be done. The blade is strong enough to use as a
pry bar and has been many times. I have no doubt you could hammer this blade
into a tree and stand on it. It could stand up to batoning and if you want
to dig a foxhole or something it should get the job done and has many times
for many users.
You can get it in stainless with a fiberglass handle for twice the money. I
think they should have stuck a small sharpening stone on the sheath for use
in the field
I also have a Ka-bar 1246. This has rubberized handle and carbon steel blade
again 7 inches long but the blade is much wider than the marine blade with
some expansion near the front. The extra mass with the expanded front has a
function. The flat blade is hollow ground near the edge and it cuts alright.
It is a much better chopper due to extra mass in the wider blade than the
marine blade and a better choice for cutting and splitting wood to make a
fire or light shelter. It can do due service as a replacement for a light
hawk. While it can do all the normal knife things I'd much rather have my
dadley for knife things or even my old hickory modified by me or not.
My observation on both Ka-bar blades is these are the kinds of blades guys
buy then don't use or carry much because of their weight and the fact that
the blade geometry meant to make them stand up to abuse makes them heavy and
limits their cutting ability. Unfortunately all blades are coming to look
more and more like this. Very manly and all that but for some reason people
don't want to carry them or use them.
Yes there was a reason that tradional blades tapered from the edge all the
way to the back of the blade and it was functional.
If you aren't in a combat zone looking at a dadley or any green river knife
can be informative. These blades were actually used by mountain men to
survive in some pretty harsh conditions. The blades are thin and the knife
is light, compact and easy to carry. No guard. The handle is light,
comfortable, and hand filling. Not designed for digging holes or batoning
though you might be able to get away with a little bit of that. They cut
great and make great using knives and that's the point. If you want a great
using knife you most likely want a light, easy to carry knife that will take
and hold a good edge and that cuts well. You don't want to mess the edge up
doing things that will leave you with a trowel. There are other options for
doing stuff like that and few to none when you need a good sharp knife.
One last observation on weight. As another man said, "The problem with big
heavy knives is that they are most likely back in camp when you really need
them." Of course the other problem is that once you get back to camp or back
home you're probably going to use something else there too. The big heavy
knives somehow or other always seem to get put up for later when we really
need them only that day never seems to arrive.
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>If you aren't in a combat zone looking at a dadley or any green river knife
>can be informative. These blades were actually used by mountain men to
>survive in some pretty harsh conditions. The blades are thin and the knife
Yeah but can you open a 55 gallon drum with one? :-)
deowll
"the wharf rat" <wr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:hb58h3$gpq$1...@reader1.panix.com...
No and you can with a Ka-Bar. I didn't say these things didn't have a place.
You can smash a car window with the butt too or take a frame house apart I
have no doubt. If I were a cop or fireman I'd consider one or one of their
special tools that look like they could pop a door or window.
Like I said I think the wide bladed one is adequate based on personal
experience for some light wood modification for all those people who don't
feel at home with a hatchet or hawk and that's most people in the present.
Okay it's been raining for the last few days and I haven't had a chance to
put the new blade (marine) through its paces yet so it might work out okay
for light wood working. It isn't going to be as good a chopper as the wider
blade. Anyone that wants to use the marine blade as their all around knife
is still going to get the job done. I'd put money on it. ?8^)
Del Cecchi
"deowll" <deo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hb5h0k$j33$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
woods. :-) In my garage on the other hand I have an air chisel, and
axe, and a chainsaw among other tools that might come in handy.
When camping carry the proper tools for the situation. A Kabar
fighting knife will almost never be the right tool. Even if you
expect to be fighting a Glock is far superior. Otherwise a saw, an
axe, and a light utility knife will do the job.
The kabar is superior as a phallic symbol however.
del
deowll
"Del Cecchi" <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7jq4euF...@mid.individual.net...
on all the fun of trying to survive in the middle of a virgin wilderness all
alone with you and nothing but your knife in somebody's woodlot? You've
never felt the urge to dig through a concrete floor with your knife or stab
a care or baton a log? What do you do for fun?
It isn't a bad knife for camping or taking hunting. I'm sure that it would
dress a deer or do most chores just fine and never let you down but it is
costly, heavy and subject to rust.
I'm already on record as prefering green river or old hickory neither of
which costs more than half as much or weighs more than a fraction as much
and I do have a nice stainless cold steel Western Hunter with a nice sheath
that should work fine as well that is both much lighter and much cheaper. I
do think the 1246 ka-bar, which is discontinued I think, is a more logical
blade to play the survival game with because it can chop at least a tad and
it does work as a knife. Taking it camping or on a canoe trip rather than a
knife and a hawk might not be insane.
the wharf rat
Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>It's been a long time since I had to open a 55 gallon drum out in the
>woods. :-)
You never know... Anyway, these knives weren't made for people
out for a hike.
>Even if you expect to be fighting a Glock is far superior.
That depends.
>The kabar is superior as a phallic symbol however.
Lol. You reckon they issued 400,000 of the things because they
made the enlisted men feel like they had big dicks?
Great Ghu. I wonder how people who love knives can think this way.
A big heavy Bowie has its place. It's not the best for some things but
no knife is. "A saw, an axe, and a 'utility' knife" ? Heck, I have more
at hand in the kitchen... I *can* do everything with the chef's knife, but
it's easier to do a good job of peeling with a peeling knife, I get easier
slices with a slicing knife, and yes, the best thing for scoring chestnuts
is a chestnut knife.
I do own 4 Kabars. Two stockmen, one doctor's knife, and the
fourth is one of those Dozier folding hunters in D2.
the wharf rat
I don't understand costly. You can have those things for like
50 bucks...
deowll
The cold steel in stainless with sheath was 24.00. The old hickory might
have been five at the time. Price is relative.
Del Cecchi
> In article <7jq4euF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's been a long time since I had to open a 55 gallon drum out in
>>the
>>woods. :-)
>
> You never know... Anyway, these knives weren't made for people
> out for a hike.
>
>>Even if you expect to be fighting a Glock is far superior.
>
> That depends.
>
>>The kabar is superior as a phallic symbol however.
>
> Lol. You reckon they issued 400,000 of the things because they
> made the enlisted men feel like they had big dicks?
I am no longer an enlisted man. And they didn't issue me one when I
was. They did have a really cute little bayonet for the M16 that we
got to play with. "what is the spirit of the bayonet? Love, drill
sargent"
If I was engaged in fighting I might want a fighting knife.
>
> Great Ghu. I wonder how people who love knives can think this way.
> A big heavy Bowie has its place. It's not the best for some things
> but
> no knife is. "A saw, an axe, and a 'utility' knife" ? Heck, I have
> more
> at hand in the kitchen... I *can* do everything with the chef's
> knife, but
> it's easier to do a good job of peeling with a peeling knife, I get
> easier
> slices with a slicing knife, and yes, the best thing for scoring
> chestnuts
> is a chestnut knife.
>
> I do own 4 Kabars. Two stockmen, one doctor's knife, and the
> fourth is one of those Dozier folding hunters in D2.
So when you go camping you just take a big ass bowie? Chop the wood,
clean the fish, slice the onions, dig the latrine?
Just because one likes knives doesn't mean some things aren't silly.
An I consider the current fad for all these testosterone laden manly
fighting knives made out of half inch thick steel bars silly. But to
each their own.
>
the wharf rat
Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>was. They did have a really cute little bayonet for the M16 that we
Well if you havce a perfectly good rifle why are you bothering with
that stupid Glock? :-)
>So when you go camping you just take a big ass bowie?
Actually I use a stove for cooking and a tent for shelter. I carry
a small fixed blade knife, formerly a Gerver A400 that got lost then
a Schrade now a Bark River TUSK. I use an entrenching tool for the latrine.
>An I consider the current fad for all these testosterone laden manly
>fighting knives made out of half inch thick steel bars silly. But to
The Bowie isn't a current fad. They've been around for hmmmm
150 years? It's a classic American design.
As far as thickness goes I really like a blade that's thick (more
than 1/4") at the hilt but that has a lot of taper towards the point. It
seems to put heft where I want it and balance the knife perfectly.
Good Soldier Schweik
rat) wrote:
>In article <7jvb1jF...@mid.individual.net>,
>Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>was. They did have a really cute little bayonet for the M16 that we
>
> Well if you havce a perfectly good rifle why are you bothering with
>that stupid Glock? :-)
>
>>So when you go camping you just take a big ass bowie?
>
> Actually I use a stove for cooking and a tent for shelter. I carry
>a small fixed blade knife, formerly a Gerver A400 that got lost then
>a Schrade now a Bark River TUSK. I use an entrenching tool for the latrine.
>
>>An I consider the current fad for all these testosterone laden manly
>>fighting knives made out of half inch thick steel bars silly. But to
>
> The Bowie isn't a current fad. They've been around for hmmmm
>150 years? It's a classic American design.
>
However.... From all I have read the alleged reason for making the
first Bowie knife was so that the guy who it was made for, Jim Bowie,
would have a better weapon when setting upon, or being set upon, by
various adversaries, whom it is rumored there were more then a few.
Not to chop firewood for a camp fire...
> As far as thickness goes I really like a blade that's thick (more
>than 1/4") at the hilt but that has a lot of taper towards the point. It
>seems to put heft where I want it and balance the knife perfectly.
>
cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
deowll
"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
news:8ocnd5h41of5qkg9t...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:52:05 +0000 (UTC), wr...@panix.com (the wharf
> rat) wrote:
>
>>In article <7jvb1jF...@mid.individual.net>,
>>Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>was. They did have a really cute little bayonet for the M16 that we
>>
>> Well if you havce a perfectly good rifle why are you bothering with
>>that stupid Glock? :-)
>>
>>>So when you go camping you just take a big ass bowie?
>>
>> Actually I use a stove for cooking and a tent for shelter. I carry
>>a small fixed blade knife, formerly a Gerver A400 that got lost then
>>a Schrade now a Bark River TUSK. I use an entrenching tool for the
>>latrine.
>>
>>>An I consider the current fad for all these testosterone laden manly
>>>fighting knives made out of half inch thick steel bars silly. But to
>>
>> The Bowie isn't a current fad. They've been around for hmmmm
>>150 years? It's a classic American design.
>>
basic design seems to be rather old and seems to stray rather far from what
James Bowie described.
> However.... From all I have read the alleged reason for making the
> first Bowie knife was so that the guy who it was made for, Jim Bowie,
> would have a better weapon when setting upon, or being set upon, by
> various adversaries, whom it is rumored there were more then a few.
>
> Not to chop firewood for a camp fire...
Actually "the bowie" was made for James, the older brother as a hunting
knife and he had his younger brother carry it because Jim was having problem
getting along with others. The blade was normally described as a large
butcher knife. James said it had a blade 9 1/4 inches long with a straight
back.
The knife and a replacement seems to have seen a lot of use as a hunting
knife being used for whatever Jim needed done while doing whatever. I would
assume they normally used an ax to chop firewood but with a knife this
size...Weell I suppose you could actually be rather flexible with it.
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I've seen pictures of a sax from 900 AD that many would call a bowie. The
Did it have a clip point? A Bowie has a clip point.
Good Soldier Schweik
I have read that there is some evidence, I believe a letter written by
a granddaughter, who states that she was present when her grand dad
Rezin P. Bowie instructed a hired (White Man) blacksmith to make the
knife. Several sites seem to credit this origin.
She also wrote that knife was just a hunting knife...
>
>The knife and a replacement seems to have seen a lot of use as a hunting
>knife being used for whatever Jim needed done while doing whatever. I would
>assume they normally used an ax to chop firewood but with a knife this
>size...Weell I suppose you could actually be rather flexible with it.
>
>
>>
>>> As far as thickness goes I really like a blade that's thick (more
>>>than 1/4") at the hilt but that has a lot of taper towards the point. It
>>>seems to put heft where I want it and balance the knife perfectly.
>>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Schweik
>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
Good Soldier Schweik
I thought that was the defining factor - the clip point, sharpened. ?
cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
deowll
that is as near as I can tell an exact match as for as blade shape goes.
It's very practical.
deowll
"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
Excuse me my brain is slipping. Rezin it is. The design of bowie knives
changed through time. Rezin as a old man that the newer blades were a big
improvement on his original design.
Not sure what he meant by that. I've looked at pictures of what some people
think the original design would have looked like and I prefer it. Oh well.
deowll
"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
Then the original Bowie knives weren't bowie knives. ?8^) They weren't even
clip points.
Yes I do agree if it isn't a clip point it shouldn't be called a bowie.
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Yes. A flat section not a false edge. I bought a modern stainless blade
I don't think a flat section is a clip point. A clip brings the point
up out of line with the edge.
B. Goode
My guess is that the original "bowie knife" was just a modification of
an existing design. Perhaps a larger or heavier design. the whole
story of the fight on the sandbar doesn't ring true. Not that Jim
Bowie didn't participate, but that because of the fight the knife
became immensely popular. After all, similar types of weapons had been
in use for hundreds or thousand of years.
What I suspect happened is that the Sandbar story, being a rather
flamboyant account of "life on the frontier" was used by foreign,
mainly English, knife makers as a sales promotion and when we call a
"Bowie knife" today may well have no relationship to what Jim actually
used.
Heresy? Perhaps, but likely.
>>>The knife and a replacement seems to have seen a lot of use as a hunting
>>>knife being used for whatever Jim needed done while doing whatever. I
>>>would
>>>assume they normally used an ax to chop firewood but with a knife this
>>>size...Weell I suppose you could actually be rather flexible with it.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as thickness goes I really like a blade that's thick (more
>>>>>than 1/4") at the hilt but that has a lot of taper towards the point.
>>>>>It
>>>>>seems to put heft where I want it and balance the knife perfectly.
>>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Schweik
>>>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
>> cheers,
>>
>> Schweik
>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
Cheers,
Billy
(billyb...@gmail.com)
the wharf rat
B. Goode <sign...@sign.off> wrote:
>
>"Bowie knife" today may well have no relationship to what Jim actually
>used.
>
The original knives still exist, and look just like Bowie knives.
They weren't made in England either.
Good Soldier Schweik
The Original Bowie Knife? The one that Jim used in the Sandbar
squabble? It was always my impression that this knife was lost.
Of knives of the same era and now known as Bowie knives?
One description that seems to fit the circumstances and conditions of
the time and place is:
http://www.geocities.com/the_t...@sbcglobal.net/adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html
cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
the wharf rat
Good Soldier Schweik <decypher....@sig.line> wrote:
>>
>> The original knives still exist, and look just like Bowie knives.
>>
>squabble? It was always my impression that this knife was lost.
THE original is lost. Contemporary models are on display
at the Alamo.
deowll
Sadly, no they don't.
The first seems to have been lost. The another vanished at the Alamo. We do
have at least one knife that Rezin seems to be firmly connected to. Atlanta
cutlery just discontinued a copy of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fowlerkn.JPG Please note that it does not
have a clip point. Rezin seems to have bought and given away knives as
gifts.
All others have dubius connections to the Bowie family which is kind of
surprising.
This site gives some data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife
We do have a reasonible description of the knife Rezin gave his brother and
the knife he bought to replace it.
deowll
"B. Goode" <sign...@sign.off> wrote in message
news:f373e55p18jsbkbbm...@4ax.com...
A lot of sources I read would agree with you. That is that the modern bowie
is in large part a product of the English cutlery trade and they called all
their large knives Bowie because Bowie was famous even though their blade
might be said to have been based more on a large traditional English style
knife. The sax with a guard added.
My best take on what Rezin described is a butcher knife (with wood scale
handles) with French chef's knife type back with a wide blade, wider than
the handle, and a rounded point and straight spine. As a weapon it would
have created a wide wound and still been able to slash and hack at 9.25
inches. It would have worked well to butcher large game and could have done
minor wood modification.
I'm not sure what Rezin was thinking when he had this made but it would have
worked well as tool or a weapon while most modern bowies aren't that
flexible.
deowll
"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
You have to call it a real Bowie because it has a firm connection to the
family but it doesn't match the description of the knife used at the sandbar
fight. The sandbar knife seemst to have lacked a guard and needed none.
deowll
They are good Bowie style knives but have nothing to do with Bowie or his
sandbar knife.
deowll
Now you have an argument going. Nearly all clip points just have a flat
section ground off the back near the tip that makes it a better stabber by
narrowing the point. On some this is sharp and on some it's even a recurve
or a combination.
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Now you have an argument going. Nearly all clip points just have a flat
>section ground off the back near the tip that makes it a better stabber by
That's a drop point. A clip point is when you have a knife with
a belly like a skinner and you clip the top of the blade near the end
to add a point to the skinner blade but keep it out of the way of the edge.
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>They are good Bowie style knives but have nothing to do with Bowie or his
>sandbar knife.
The Fowler Bowie was presented to Capt. Henry Walker Fowler
by Rezin Bowie. The sheath is engraved "From RP Bowie to HW Fowler".
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fowlerkn.JPG Please note that it does not
>have a clip point. Rezin seems to have bought and given away knives as
Sure it does. Look carefully. The point's higher than the back.
Good Soldier Schweik
I've always view the whole story of the bowie knife with some
suspicion. The Bowie brothers were essentially criminals; illegal
slave trading and illegal land trading. Jim, who already had a
reputation for being a feisty chap was involved in what is best
described as a melee and suddenly his knife becomes popular
practically world wide?
Now, just a minute, what other duel or brawl, murder or other battle
has resulted in the immortalizing of the weapons?
Take for instance the Burr - Hamilton duel... did folks rush to
purchase pistols from the maker of the deadly weapon? Does anyone even
remember what they were? What type of pistol was used to kill Wild
Bill Hickok? Did the Gun fight at the O.K. Corral cause folks to rush
out and buy the same gun that Wyatt had?
Nope. I believe that my original assertion is the best explanation;
that the people who were mass producing knives and exporting to the
U.S., seized on the "duel" as an example of the "wild west" and used
it to popularize their product.
>>
>>>>>The knife and a replacement seems to have seen a lot of use as a hunting
>>>>>knife being used for whatever Jim needed done while doing whatever. I
>>>>>would
>>>>>assume they normally used an ax to chop firewood but with a knife this
>>>>>size...Weell I suppose you could actually be rather flexible with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as thickness goes I really like a blade that's thick (more
>>>>>>>than 1/4") at the hilt but that has a lot of taper towards the point.
>>>>>>>It
>>>>>>>seems to put heft where I want it and balance the knife perfectly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Schweik
>>>>>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
>>>> cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Schweik
>>>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Billy
>> (billyb...@gmail.com)
cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
deowll
I have already agreed that the Searles/Fowler Bowie is valid at least as
for as the Rezin connection goes. This is the discontinued knife sold by
Atlanta cutlery. It may have been the only reproduction knife that had a
real historical connection to any Bowie. I know most of them don't. I'd need
to check on the rest if somebody named them.
deowll
I know what a drop point is. I own enough of them. I've ground one on a
couple of knives which sure isn't saying much in this group.
What I was talking about is like they took a mini bit out of it. My big old
buck bowie I bought maybe 38 years ago and the marine knife both have a
false edge that is dished.
deowll
Okay I've looked at every picture I could find of this blade and I still
don't see any evidence that this thing doesn't have a spine as straight as a
taunt string. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fowlerkn.JPG I even tried
putting a straight edge up against the picture and no go.
Even if it curved up a mm or even an inch that doesn't make a clip point so
I seriously still don't see your point. I own a bunch of bowie knives and
they all have clip points and you don't have to look carefully to tell it.
deowll
http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=2139
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fowlerkn.JPG
They sharpened the spine as you can easily see but a clip? Where?
deowll
"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
Some years back I read an article about the dueling pistols used in the
Burr-Hamilton duel. Even though Hamilton owned dueling pistols he borrowed a
set to use in the duel in which he fired early and was killed. A son of
Hamilton later met the same fate. The guns ended up I think in the
Smithsonian. Somebody wanted to make a reproduction set and when examined
internally it turned out these had adjustable triggers. That is very much a
no no and since both father and son fired early it sort of looked like they
might have been messing with the trigger and given themselves to light a
trigger pull or some such.
Burr challenged and Bur killed a man standing flat footed with an empty gun.
I can't feel any pity for Hamilton because he had been writing slander under
a fake name and gotten caught. He most likely did try to kill Burr and
cheated on top of it.
Bowie was fighting for his life against long odds and won. There isn't any
doubt from any account who attacked whom. The only thing shocking about the
fight was Bowie won and lived.
Many people already had the same gun that killed Hickok. Many people already
had the same gun Wyatt used. They were extremely common guns at the time. It
would be hard to tell if the fights impacted sells but Hickok was shot in
the back while seated at a table playing cards. That's not exactly the kind
of thing that attracts hero worship.
As for as most people in the west were concerned if you wanted a hangun you
bought a colt.
> Nope. I believe that my original assertion is the best explanation;
> that the people who were mass producing knives and exporting to the
> U.S., seized on the "duel" as an example of the "wild west" and used
> it to popularize their product.
>
Which it did but it wouldn't have worked if Bowie had been killed in that
fight would it?
the wharf rat
deowll <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Even if it curved up a mm or even an inch that doesn't make a clip point so
The difference is that when you curve the edge down or just take
an angle out of the top you lose cutting edge. A clip point puts a point
on a knife with a deep belly without losing cutting edge.
Good soldier Schweik
>
>"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
>news:vfl8e5hqcjiaqf9c4...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:54:30 -0500, "deowll" <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B. Goode" <sign...@sign.off> wrote in message
>>>news:f373e55p18jsbkbbm...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:48:36 -0500, "deowll" <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
>>>>>news:fistd55rvkh9eb6r4...@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:36:49 -0500, "deowll" <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher....@sig.line> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:8ocnd5h41of5qkg9t...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:52:05 +0000 (UTC), wr...@panix.com (the wharf
>>>>>>>> rat) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In article <7jvb1jF...@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>>>>>Del Cecchi <delcecchi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Much Snipped
>Some years back I read an article about the dueling pistols used in the
>Burr-Hamilton duel. Even though Hamilton owned dueling pistols he borrowed a
>set to use in the duel in which he fired early and was killed. A son of
>Hamilton later met the same fate. The guns ended up I think in the
>Smithsonian. Somebody wanted to make a reproduction set and when examined
>internally it turned out these had adjustable triggers. That is very much a
>no no and since both father and son fired early it sort of looked like they
>might have been messing with the trigger and given themselves to light a
>trigger pull or some such.
If the pistols had "set triggers", and it is very possible that they
did, then the pressure to fire the gun would have been adjustable,
usually with a small screw inside the trigger guard. It is possible to
adjust most of these types of triggers to less then an ounce of
pressure to fire. Very beneficial in a target pistol but likely not
the best thing in a duel.
>Burr challenged and Bur killed a man standing flat footed with an empty gun.
>I can't feel any pity for Hamilton because he had been writing slander under
>a fake name and gotten caught. He most likely did try to kill Burr and
>cheated on top of it.
But Hamilton did fire and from the reports I read say that he did not
deliberately fire into the ground which apparently was the proper
procedure if one wanted to indicate that he did not wish to kill his
opponent.
From all I read it appears that Burr was not condemned for his conduct
during the duel at the time.
>Bowie was fighting for his life against long odds and won. There isn't any
>doubt from any account who attacked whom. The only thing shocking about the
>fight was Bowie won and lived.
>
>Many people already had the same gun that killed Hickok. Many people already
>had the same gun Wyatt used. They were extremely common guns at the time. It
>would be hard to tell if the fights impacted sells
Other then the "Buntline Specials" there seems no contemporary
publicity regarding the type of guns used in the Old West. Modern
legend has it that THE Buffalo Gun was a Sharps when in fact there
were far more single shot Remingtons sold then Sharps.
> but Hickok was shot in
>the back while seated at a table playing cards. That's not exactly the kind
>of thing that attracts hero worship.
>
>As for as most people in the west were concerned if you wanted a hangun you
>bought a colt.
Not necessarily so. Gen. Custer, for example,owned a Remington :-)
>
>> Nope. I believe that my original assertion is the best explanation;
>> that the people who were mass producing knives and exporting to the
>> U.S., seized on the "duel" as an example of the "wild west" and used
>> it to popularize their product.
>>
>Which it did but it wouldn't have worked if Bowie had been killed in that
>fight would it?
Given the wounds that Bowie sustained we should be wondering what kind
of supplements he was taking :-)
>>
>> Schweik
>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
Cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
deowll
"Good soldier Schweik" <goodsoldi...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:8knle59tn1f67ho0i...@4ax.com...
It was against the rules. The guns were supposed to be matched pairs as near
identical as possible.
Huh? There was massive publicity! The most used shoulder gun by civilians
was lever gun made by Winchester.
>> but Hickok was shot in
>>the back while seated at a table playing cards. That's not exactly the
>>kind
>>of thing that attracts hero worship.
>
>>
>>As for as most people in the west were concerned if you wanted a hangun
>>you
>>bought a colt.
>
> Not necessarily so. Gen. Custer, for example,owned a Remington :-)
Which was notable and he had to buy his own because the issue gun was a
colt.
>
>>
>>> Nope. I believe that my original assertion is the best explanation;
>>> that the people who were mass producing knives and exporting to the
>>> U.S., seized on the "duel" as an example of the "wild west" and used
>>> it to popularize their product.
>>>
>>Which it did but it wouldn't have worked if Bowie had been killed in that
>>fight would it?
>
> Given the wounds that Bowie sustained we should be wondering what kind
> of supplements he was taking :-)
>
>
Jackson mortally wounded a man during a duel after the guy shot him in the
chest. The bullet broke some ribs and his breast bone and Jackson's hand
dropped. I wouldn't be shocked if it bruised his heart. Jackson then raised
his gun, aimed and fired. The wound that resulted killed the other man. The
other guy was removed from the field and died without ever even learning
he'd hit Jackson. Jackson managed to hide the fact that he was injured
until after he and his opponent parted ways.
Good soldier Schweik
No. I have seen dueling pistols made with set triggers. made by EGG
(spelling?) a rather famous English maker.
Possible true but I have never seen any contemporary publicity
regarding this. You also have to pick your period as there were
150,000 Henry "Yellow Boy" 44's built between 1867 and 1892.
Winchester built 634,000 of the 1873's between 1882-1923.
I'll bet that from the end of the civil War to 1882 Henrys
outnumbered Winchesters :-)
>
>>> but Hickok was shot in
>>>the back while seated at a table playing cards. That's not exactly the
>>>kind
>>>of thing that attracts hero worship.
>>
>>>
>>>As for as most people in the west were concerned if you wanted a hangun
>>>you
>>>bought a colt.
>>
>> Not necessarily so. Gen. Custer, for example,owned a Remington :-)
>
>Which was notable and he had to buy his own because the issue gun was a
>colt.
Yes, but it might indicate that some didn't prefer the Colt.
>
>>
>>>
>>>> Nope. I believe that my original assertion is the best explanation;
>>>> that the people who were mass producing knives and exporting to the
>>>> U.S., seized on the "duel" as an example of the "wild west" and used
>>>> it to popularize their product.
>>>>
>>>Which it did but it wouldn't have worked if Bowie had been killed in that
>>>fight would it?
>>
>> Given the wounds that Bowie sustained we should be wondering what kind
>> of supplements he was taking :-)
>>
>>
>Jackson mortally wounded a man during a duel after the guy shot him in the
>chest. The bullet broke some ribs and his breast bone and Jackson's hand
>dropped. I wouldn't be shocked if it bruised his heart. Jackson then raised
>his gun, aimed and fired. The wound that resulted killed the other man. The
>other guy was removed from the field and died without ever even learning
>he'd hit Jackson. Jackson managed to hide the fact that he was injured
>until after he and his opponent parted ways.
I've broken a couple of ribs at one time or another and I'd guess that
his hand did drop! Damn, but I squirmed around on the ground for a
while after I did it :-)
>>
>>>>
>>>> Schweik
>>>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Schweik
>> (goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
Cheers,
Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)