What do you think were /are the great inovations in sport/stunt kites
Garry Box
Just thought I would try and start a thread on kites so here goes
Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all subtly
different. which kites over the years do you think have been truly
innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has since
been used on a large number of other kites.
Here are a few I've thought of and why (IM sure somebody is going to say
some of them are wrong and that kite x did this first but that the point of
this thread)
Peter Powell
First truly successful stunt kite
Hawaiian
First modern two line delta
Tracer
Curved leading edge, Silent flight, aspect ratio
Revolution
First successful Quad line kite and also the use of carbon rods specifically
designed for a kite rather than archery cast offs
Stranger
First kite designed specifically for tricks
MEFM
Unique fittings, Bridle
There are obviously a lot more so feel free to add to the list
Regards Garry Box
Skip Parks
Banshee Kites have had a curved leading edge since 1986 along with a
cambered sail, cambered battens, and a cambered,reflexed keel (spine),
even the Raysoar our only "delta" framed kite had curved leading edges
back then, and a real high aspect ratio.
Skip Parks , Banshee Kite Co.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/bansheekites
http://www.inergy.com/BansheeKites
Steve Bateman
Garry Box wrote:
> Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all subtly
> different. which kites over the years do you think have been truly
> innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has since
> been used on a large number of other kites.
The method of bridle reinforcements on the inside of a Peel (V lines).
--
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Robert Hawkins
Gary, please count The Hyperkite, and (I supect) a few others, as first
two-line Delta.
Tabor's Hawaiian, did set the Standard of the big wing's. And the
Spin-off brought the public into kiting. But First Modern Two-Line
Delta?
Ummmm... (I dono...) Hawk
"When it comes to information...
...I'm full of it!"
Matthew McGee
"Garry Box" <Ga...@nexus1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Just thought I would try and start a thread on kites so here goes
>Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all subtly
>different. which kites over the years do you think have been truly
>innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has since
>been used on a large number of other kites.
Hi Garry,
My vote is for the Prism Illusion's ability to "dead-launch" from the
belly down, nose toward you position.
It hasn't been widely copied yet, but give it time.
Matt
Mark de Roussier
On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:36:44 -0500, DAH...@webtv.net (Robert Hawkins) wrote:
>Gary, please count The Hyperkite, and (I supect) a few others, as first
>two-line Delta.
>
>Tabor's Hawaiian, did set the Standard of the big wing's. And the
>Spin-off brought the public into kiting.
Very true. It was my first two line kite, imported via a friend who happened
to be visiting Venice Beach, which is where I think he picked it up. I've
still got it, and I often use it with beginners - its slow and insensitive
by today's standards, and doesn't like stalling, but that makes it good for
teaching basics.
Garry Box
See I told you somebody would disagree with me. But that is fine the whole
idea of this thread is to try to work trhough the firsts for various part of
the modern stunt/sport kite. I stand corrected.
Regards Garry Box
Robert Hawkins wrote in message
<6c2sfc$fpm$1...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Gary, please count The Hyperkite, and (I supect) a few others, as first
two-line Delta.
Tabor's Hawaiian, did set the Standard of the big wing's. And the
Mike Ryan
Garry Box wrote:
>
> Just thought I would try and start a thread on kites so here goes
>
Wrapped spars.. Lightweight, and strong..
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. Wm Mike Ryan Warped/Wildcat
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Peter de Jong
>Just thought I would try and start a thread on kites so here goes
>
>Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all subtly
>different. which kites over the years do you think have been truly
>innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has since
>been used on a large number of other kites.
>
>Here are a few I've thought of and why (IM sure somebody is going to say
>some of them are wrong and that kite x did this first but that the point of
>this thread)
>
>Peter Powell
>First truly successful stunt kite
>
>Hawaiian
>First modern two line delta
>
>Tracer
>Curved leading edge, Silent flight, aspect ratio
>
>Revolution
>First successful Quad line kite and also the use of carbon rods specifically
>designed for a kite rather than archery cast offs
>
>Stranger
>First kite designed specifically for tricks
>
>MEFM
>Unique fittings, Bridle
>
>There are obviously a lot more so feel free to add to the list
>
>
> Regards Garry Box
Agreed, but you forgot the most important of all:
Rogallo's flexible wings (should really be in capitols) the prototype
of ALL modern kites...
Regards, Peter
PS: if you respond by e-mail be sure your domain
name is correct: to reduce spam my provider checks
it!
Peter de Jong <p...@xs4all.nl>
A&F Custom Kites Werkhoven NL
For kitebuilding tips: <http://www.xs4all.nl/~pdj>
Jody McCann
Prism Illusion: First Belly Launch
Troy Gunn
I recall that the first production dual line kite
was produced in Bend, Oregon back in the 60's.
I don't remember it's name but I know that it
could be flown as a single line or as a dual line.
I think David Gomberg would no of the name of
the kite!
Gotta Fly! Troy
Troy Gunn
AKA Director Region 8 (TX.-OK.-AR.-LA.)
TKO...@webtv.net
(940)691-8522
American Kitefliers Association
a...@aka.kite.org
http://www.aka.kite.org
David Gomberg
> >Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all subtly
> >innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has since
> >been used on a large number of other kites.
Let's not forget Paul Garber and his Target Kite. I wouldn't exactly
call it "sport" but I think everyone after relied on its inovation.
Charles H Cleaveland, from Bend Oregon, introduced a paper two line
called the Glite in 1963. It is proported to be the first commercial
stunter. (I'd have to check that date against Peter Powells efforts).
How about George Popock (or was it Alexander. I always get confused).
His is regarded as the first kite buggy.
And finally, my first kite was a Rainbow Stunter six-pack. Changed my
life (and lots of other old-timers too) when we discovered that first
maneuverable kite train. It was on the market before the Hawiian.
Great thread. Thanks!
dg
--
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Michael Raycraft
Garry Box <Ga...@nexus1.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<887406566.16403.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> Just thought I would try and start a thread on kites so here goes
>
> Although there are a lot of good stunt/sport kites out there all
subtly
> different. which kites over the years do you think have been truly
> innovative and in what way the innovation may be quite small but has
since
> been used on a large number of other kites.
[...]
Can *standoffs* be far from the top of any proper list, Garry-two-r's?
Michael
-=-
Andy Wardley
Matthew McGee <Dualli...@MCI2000.com> wrote:
>It hasn't been widely copied yet, but give it time.
I don't know if that's necessarily true. It's not possible to simply
"copy" the Dead Launch from the Illusion and put it into another kite
- it's something that must be designed in from the start.
Designing something so fundamental into the kite will very much shape
the way the kite flies[*]. You might find that in your efforts to develop
a Dead Launching kite you end up with just another Illusion clone.
The sad thing is that there are designers/manufacturers out there who
will be quite happy doing just that.
A
[*] It's the _shape_ of the Illusion that allows it to Dead Launch. Copy
the shape and you've basically got a copy of the Illusion. There are
other shapes and other designs that will also Dead Launch, but most
of them are still out there waiting to be discovered. The innovators
out there (people like Mark Reed) will be searching, experimenting,
prototyping and hopefully, finding them. The others will just be
copying what's already been done.
--
Andy Wardley <a...@kfs.org> http://www.kfs.org/~abw
Signature lost in transit. We apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Andy Wardley
>Tabor's Hawaiian, did set the Standard of the big wing's. And the
>Spin-off brought the public into kiting. But First Modern Two-Line
>Delta?
The first "Modern" two line delta was the original Benson Phantom. I
think it was Don Tabor himself who christened it that. Although an
original Phantom looks a little dated now, the design and techniques
used then are the same today and significantly different from what they
were before. The Phantom was the influence for a whole generation of
kites, not least of all the North Shore Radical et al.
I have had a conversation about this with Tim in the past and he was
quick to point out (before retreating in a mumble of modesty) how much
Tabor's work had influenced him in designing the Phantom. I understand
that Don Tabor subsequently acknowledged how much the Phantom went on to
influence him and other kite designers.
Andy "wasn't there at the time, so don't sue me" Wardley
David Gomberg
Inovations aren't limitd to the kites themselves.
I think it may have been Steve Edeiken that first used Kevlar for flying
line.
Spider Line from Catch the Wind was the first Spectra Fiber. Shanti came
out at roughly the same time.
Without these folks, we'd probably still be pulling on nylon and
dacron...
--
*** Gomberg Kite Productions International ***
Come visit us at <http://www.orednet.org/~dgomberg/>
See a whole series of Wolfgang Grimsel kites on our "Special Products"
page.
Nick Boucart
Andy Wardley wrote:
> Designing something so fundamental into the kite will very much shape
> the way the kite flies[*]. You might find that in your efforts to develop
> a Dead Launching kite you end up with just another Illusion clone.
>
> The sad thing is that there are designers/manufacturers out there who
> will be quite happy doing just that.
>
We studied hard on why a kite does, or doesn't dead launch. There are 2
major things: first of all, the spine should not be large, so when the
kites nose comes up during the dead launch, the spine isn't blocking the
kite, so the nose can't rise more. Second thing, the leading edges need
to be curved backwards, so when laying on it's belly, the kite isn't
laying completely flat. The Illusion has both this characteristic
features, so do the other dead launching prisms. I have however a
remark when you say that every dead launching kite is some sort of
illusion clone: I even dead launched a Phantom elite a couple of times,
and a phantom isn't exactly an illusion ; Also other, non-illusion
kites will dead launch, for example the Nitro UL will do it indoor. Of
course there is a difference: the prism kites are designed to do the
dead launch, the others probably do it unintentially.
Nick.
Andy Wardley
Andy Wardley wrote:
> Designing something so fundamental into the kite will very much shape
> the way the kite flies[*]. You might find that in your efforts to develop
> a Dead Launching kite you end up with just another Illusion clone.
In article <34EAA5...@lms.be>, Nick Boucart <n...@lms.be> wrote:
>We studied hard on why a kite does, or doesn't dead launch. There are 2
>major things: first of all, the spine should not be large, so when the
>kites nose comes up during the dead launch, the spine isn't blocking the
>kite, so the nose can't rise more. Second thing, the leading edges need
>to be curved backwards, so when laying on it's belly, the kite isn't
>laying completely flat.
Yep, I agree. The aspect ratio is also an issue for there are certain
aspect ratios that work well for Dead Launching and those that don't.
My comment may have been a little strong, but I was implying that the
Illusion seems to be pretty much the best shape to use if you want to
make a kite Dead Launch. The other kites I've flown that DL tend to be
of a fairly similar ilk.
If we take these three things that are "fundamental" to a kite's
Dead Launch ability:
* short tail
* way curved leading edge
* low to middling aspect ratio
Then there is only so much you can do to make the kite different from
any other in the same class (be it the Illusion or some other). The
Prism range of kites all have the same kind of feel just as Benson kites,
Matheson Kites, Airmaster Kites, Jordan Air Kites, etc., etc., all have
their own special "something".
It's only my opinion, of course, and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm
wrong, but I suspect that Dead Launching is something that goes well
with the "Prism Feel" and if you try to put that into a kite that has
a different "feel" then you might end up changing the fundamental nature
of the kite into something more Prism-like. I'm not saying that's a bad
thing, but I would rather leave Prism to excel in what they do and have
other manufacturers concentrate on the things that *their* kites do well.
Take the recent discussion on the TrickTail. Someone commented (and my
apologies because I forget who it was) that the kite doesn't Flic Flac
very well. OK, so no big deal, because the kite does so much else. If
Active People tried to change the kite so that it Flic-Flac'd as well as
a Box of Tricks then the TrickTail would be more like a Box of Tricks
and less like a TrickTail. That would be a bad thing because the world
doesn't need another Box of Tricks when it already has a perfectly good
one.
"Vive la difference!" is really what I'm saying. I wish my Box of Tricks
would do everything, including Dead Launches, but it doesn't (well, not
easily). If you could add the capability without taking anything else
away then I'd be happy, but I don't think you can. At least not quickly
and easily.
>The Illusion has both this characteristic
>features, so do the other dead launching prisms. I have however a
>remark when you say that every dead launching kite is some sort of
>illusion clone: I even dead launched a Phantom elite a couple of times,
>and a phantom isn't exactly an illusion ;
Well yes, I *can* Dead-Launch a Box of Tricks, but it sure as hell isn't
easy. Ditto for the Phantom Elite. If you modify the Phantom Elite
to Dead Launch easily then it starts to take on more of a "Prism" feel
and less of a "Benson" feel. I know this for a fact because Tim has
done it. The real challenge is to put something into a kite (be it
Axel, Flic Flac, Flat Spin or Dead Launch capability) without screwing
it up in other ways.
Prism have succeeded admirably using one approach. I would like to see
designers come up with their *own* ways rather that settling for copying
what someone else has already done.
>Also other, non-illusion
>kites will dead launch, for example the Nitro UL will do it indoor. Of
>course there is a difference: the prism kites are designed to do the
>dead launch, the others probably do it unintentially.
Agreed and I think that almost any kite will Dead Launch indoors,
particularly on short lines.
A
Kurt Svensson
Adjustable standoffs! lets you tune the kite for different winds!
"Turbo" bridle
Attitude adjuster, more - less tracking, faster - slower spins etc...
not to be confused with the adjustment of the bridle/towpoints
Leach line
Dead launch
Guess what I'm flying :-)))))
--
Anima
The active principle present in living things.
Todd Garoutte
Kurt Svensson <kurt.s...@astorp.mail.telia.com> wrote:
>Adjustable standoffs! lets you tune the kite for different winds!
>
>"Turbo" bridle
>
>Attitude adjuster, more - less tracking, faster - slower spins etc...
>not to be confused with the adjustment of the bridle/towpoints
>
>Leach line
>
>Dead launch
>
>Guess what I'm flying :-)))))
Trick Tail...... whats the prize?? :)).
c-ya
--
Todd Garoutte Phone +49 611 428970
Email: garo...@t-online.de Fax +49 611 421852
AKA Member.."Kite Fanatic" Mobil +49 172 6821470
http://home.t-online.de/home/garoutte/default.htm