Kite Trains
Edward Chi Man Ho
Thanks for all your help in recommending it to me.
I think I want to get a train now. From my many kite catalogs
I see only a few prepakaged trains. Into the Wind offers a Rainbow pack
and the Star Crusier pack. I guess I could always train a bunch of
flexifoils, but I have never flow one before. Or I could train a bunch
of normal deltas, like scorpians or something. I would like to get a
relatively cheap train like $100-$200. (I want to save up my money
and get a UL XTC so I can fly in zero wind.)
I would appreciate any help in a way of getting my first
train. Oh, I've never flown one before.
-Thanks,
-Ed
:-)
Michael Graves
In article <2pddc9$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Edward Chi Man Ho (ed...@uclink.berkeley.edu) writes:
> Hi everyone. I am having loads of fun with my Quadrafoil.
>Thanks for all your help in recommending it to me.
>
> I think I want to get a train now. From my many kite catalogs
>I see only a few prepakaged trains. Into the Wind offers a Rainbow pack
>and the Star Crusier pack. I guess I could always train a bunch of
>flexifoils, but I have never flow one before. Or I could train a bunch
>of normal deltas, like scorpians or something. I would like to get a
>relatively cheap train like $100-$200. (I want to save up my money
>and get a UL XTC so I can fly in zero wind.)
Ed,
Take a look at Dyna-kites! They are a nice diamond style kite that
stacks very well, and doesn't cost too much. The people who make
them, the Martins, are a family operation and very nice people,
too.
Michael Graves
Andrew Beattie
interchangeable or is a train single-line and a stack dual line? Anyway,
from contect it is obvious that you mean 2-line.
>From my many kite catalogs I see only a few prepakaged trains.
You can stack just about anything. With a budget of $100, I would
seriously consider buying 20 $5 plastic Garfield kites from K-mart. The
performance is nothing to write home about, you will have to supply proper
lines, your own stack-lines and build a ghost-kite (a triangular frame that
goes in front of the first kite to remove the compressive load that the bridle
would put on the first kite, but you would have more impact on the general
public than $100 worth of any other kite.
For large stacks, consider the assembly time - you want something that you
can just stack up and dump in a box. If you have to fit spars in 20 kites,
you'll never fly it!
Just my $0.02
Andrew
uspe...@ibmmail.com
> In article <2pddc9$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Edward Chi Man Ho
>(ed...@uclink.berk > Hi everyone. I am having loads of fun
>with my Quadrafoil. >Thanks for all your help in recommending it to
>me. I think I want to get a train now. From my many kite
>catalogs I see only a few prepakaged trains. Into the Wind offers
>a Rainbow pack and the Star Crusier pack. I guess I could always
>train a bunch of flexifoils, but I have never flow one before. Or
>I could train a bunch of normal deltas, like scorpians or
>something. I would like to get a relatively cheap train like
>$100-$200. (I want to save up my money and get a UL XTC so I can
>fly in zero wind.)
For long trains (6 to 24 kites) I would recommend Dynakites or
Hyperkites. Since I believe you are from the San Francisco Bay area,
I would suggest talking to the Bay Area Sundowners. They are the best
train flying team I've ever seen and must practice somewhere in the
Bay Area. (probably at the Berkeley Marina, Marina Green or Ocean
Beach?) They're also a great bunch of guys and would probably be
willing to help someone interested in train flying.
Dynakites are probably the easiest kites to fly in trains. They are
diamond kites like the rainbows but come in larger sizes and in three
color sails or solid sails. Dave Young of Forever Young Kites in
Middletown, CT (203-635-7545) could give you more info. I believe I
saw a Dynakite catalog last weekend at Norwalk. Dave has good
connections with John Martin of Dynakites.
Larger delta kites, like Scorpions, could be trained but you would be
on your own as far as setting up train lines and strengthening the
bridle. Ron Reich has posted good information on setting up train
lines. Check the archives. Flexis are fairly easy to train but as I
don't have any experience, I'll leave that to someone who does. Be
aware that two kites can pull more than double the pull of one. (I've
learned this with Speedwings - another good kite that comes in
trains) I've seen Brian Vanderslice leave the ground with a stack of
3 (or was it 4) Scorpions. And definitely don't try a six pack of
Hawaiian Team kites like Anthony Crisafulli (I believe I saw a
picture of him flying 17) unless you have a good body anchor or have
tied them to a four by four. (Same goes for 8 foot or larger flexis)
Good luck and keep it fun,
Mark Virgilio (uspe...@ibmmail.com)
Andrew Beattie
>And definitely don't try a six pack of
>Hawaiian Team kites like Anthony Crisafulli (I believe I saw a
>picture of him flying 17) unless you have a good body anchor or have
>tied them to a four by four. (Same goes for 8 foot or larger flexis)
Sorry Mark, I won't let that pass. This is a common missunderstanding
about power flying.
Do *NOT* anchor powerful stunt kites or stunt-kite-stacks to the ground.
It is ABSOLUTELY NOT safe. People get killed an maimed trying. Eg:
UK: One flexifoil. Strong wind. Line anchored through belt/harness to position
behind flier. Flier does power-dive followed by ground pass. Compressive
load on fliers leg means thet he cannot move to follow path of kite. Leg snaps.
Germany: Power kiter flying with anchor. Anchor fails. Flier catapulted into
tree. Flier killed.
USA: (Detail sketchy) flier airbourne on the line tension with stack of
flexies. Loss of control. Flexies smash into ground. Flier likewise.
On the other hand, I have not yet found the upper limit for the amount of
kite that you can fly without an anchor. I've flown a dozen or so 10'
Flexifoils, a 15m^2 Peel and a 20m^2 parachute.
Andrew
--
echo 'and...@tug.com' | dd bs=20k seek=50000 of=end_of_tape
Netiquette-of-the-day: Don't flame. If you must flame, flame by Email.
You can FTP the kite FAQ's from ftp.hawaii.edu (directory /pub/rec/kites/faq)
The FAQ's include lists of kite stores, kite books, kite plans.
Peter W. Meek
any safety information><my comment follows quote>
Andrew Beattie (and...@tug.com) wrote:
: uspe...@ibmmail.COM writes:
: >And definitely don't try a six pack of
: >Hawaiian Team kites like Anthony Crisafulli (I believe I saw a
: >picture of him flying 17) unless you have a good body anchor or have
: >tied them to a four by four. (Same goes for 8 foot or larger flexis)
: Sorry Mark, I won't let that pass. This is a common missunderstanding
: about power flying.
: Do *NOT* anchor powerful stunt kites or stunt-kite-stacks to the ground.
: It is ABSOLUTELY NOT safe. People get killed an maimed trying. Eg:
: UK: One flexifoil. Strong wind. Line anchored through belt/harness to position
: behind flier. Flier does power-dive followed by ground pass. Compressive
: load on fliers leg means thet he cannot move to follow path of kite. Leg snaps.
: Germany: Power kiter flying with anchor. Anchor fails. Flier catapulted into
: tree. Flier killed.
: USA: (Detail sketchy) flier airbourne on the line tension with stack of
: flexies. Loss of control. Flexies smash into ground. Flier likewise.
: On the other hand, I have not yet found the upper limit for the amount of
: kite that you can fly without an anchor. I've flown a dozen or so 10'
: Flexifoils, a 15m^2 Peel and a 20m^2 parachute.
: Andrew
: --
I have not tried this, but I think it may be the only safe
way to anchor 'super'-pulling kites and stacks:
The chief dangers are being manipulated by the taut lines
and being hit by rigging in the case of an anchor failure.
To avoid these, the flier must not be between the lines.
I suggest bringing the flying lines to the ends of a
heavy line which passes through a pulley which is well-
anchored (multi-line and pulley setups can be rigged for
quads, too). Also to the ends of the flying lines are
attached lanyards which extend to the flying position
*behind* the anchor point. This results in no tension
on the lanyards except for steering applied by the
flyer(s).
I believe a system like this was used to fly 150 Flexis
in Chicago several years ago. The pulley was a wheel
and axle from a car anchored to two fire trucks (which
were lifted on their suspensions anyway). I wouldn't
want to be downwind from the anchor point, but this system
sounds otherwise safe for the flyers. (Vaguely recalled from
an article in one of the kite mags many years ago.)
--
--Pete <pwm...@mail.msen.com>
"Since at first there was no space, | Cao Xueqin ca. 1760
Things can have no proper place." | (tsao schwechin)
<I find this a fascinating pre-big-bang cosmology.>
ahcle...@aol.com
OK, I can not over emphasize the danger of flying large stacks that need to
be anchored! If you are building a stack so large that it needs to be
anchored please consult with Ray Merry, George Baskette, or Daniel Schwenk as
these folks know the dangers inherent in such an undertaking and have
developed systems to prevent death and or injury.
HOWEVER, I SWEAR, BUGGYING IS MORE FUN AND COST LESS TOO!!!
LIFTING IS SO DANGEROUS BASE JUMPING IS SUPER SAFE IN COMPARISON!! DON'T
DO IT!!!!
dean jordan
ps; The date was May 1991, the place was Wildwood, NJ. I was hospitalized
for two weeks in agony, and then confined to a wheel chair for three months.
I still have a lot of pain associated from the accident. I was flying a
twelve stack of 10' flexi's when i flew into the ground. George Baskette
possibly saved my life by keeping me immoble for the next few hours while
well intentioned people, including rescue personel, tried to move me. I had
shattered my pelvis and broken it in six or seven places as well as crushed
my coxax and lower spine.
Kite flyers, led by Chris Batdorf, raised over Ten Thousand dollars to help
pay my medical bills. I had no insurance. I will pay for the rest of my
life.
DO NOT LIFT!!
Andrew Beattie
>I have not tried this, but I think it may be the only safe
>way to anchor 'super'-pulling kites and stacks:
>The chief dangers are being manipulated by the taut lines
>and being hit by rigging in the case of an anchor failure.
Yes. Your method avoids the most obvious dangers, but there
are other failure modes that you must consider:
A 200 square foot parachute is easy to fly by hand in a reasonable
wind, so anchoring is not really worth considering for anything
smaller. It is reasonable therefore to consider a system which fails
under 1 ton of tension, with 300' lines (big kites move very fast when
anchored - 300' is in proportion to the size of the kite)
Anchor failure:
The pulley/anchor/handles etc get flung at high speed, and may
hit anything within a 700' arc downwind.
The handles are pulled very rapidly out of the tight grip of the flier,
this is likely to cause muscle/tendon strain/tear type damage.
If you were wearing wrist straps, you'll have to go and look for your
hands somewhere near the pulley
Explaining that a kite pulled the front off your truck will amuse your
insurance company.
If the anchor-parts that are released drag enough to keep the kite
flying, they will wander across the country, seeking out expensive
things to break, before finding a power cable to knot onto.
Anchor movement:
What do you do when your 4x4 starts sliding down the field?
Line failure:
The flying line will whip back, in an effort to injure anyone near the
anchor, such as the flier. The pulley, will try to either hit you or
or to embed it's self in the front of your truck.
Pulley failure:
If the pulley breaks up, who knows where the bits are going to fly?
The unexpected:
What happes if someone wanders across your flying area? Can you guarantee
to land safely without endangering them?
We have very little experience of this stuff. The track record is very bad.
What things could happen that we havn't considered?
>I believe a system like this was used to fly 150 Flexis
>in Chicago several years ago. The pulley was a wheel
>and axle from a car anchored to two fire trucks (which
>were lifted on their suspensions anyway).
Despite careful planning, they got it badly wrong. They used a dumper truck
(or similar) and 2 antique file engines. On launch, tension was sufficient
to lift the front wheels of the fire trucks clear of the ground. The line
promptly snapped and the fire trucks fell to the ground, smashing the
suspension. (this is my summary of Jost's description)
Flexifoil *have* successfuly flown an anchored stack of 200(ish) 6' flexies
with a related technique, but I still don't reccommend it.
Please don't take this as a flame, I just don't want to see people get hurt.
I also don't want to see any of my friends who make power kites getting into
legal battles due to other people's stupidity.
Peter's Peels come with a label that says something like:
This kite is not reccommended for kite jumping and is ABSOLUTELY NOT
suitable for tethered flying.
Peter W. Meek
<on disaster modes for tethered/anchored flying>
OK, I agree that it shouldn't be done for moral reasons.
You don't set up legal problems for friends without very
good reason.
All failure modes you describe would be answered by
adding one additional element to the setup I described:
"Fuses": if the attachment from flying lines to the
line that goes around the pulley is deliberately made
to be the weakest part of the system, then failures will
not result in flying hardware or lines snapping back
at the flier. Anchors should be included; anchoring
technology is not a black art. These things can be
calculated in advance.
As to people down wind, I felt that
that went without saying. You don't fly any kite
that you can't control over people; and you don't
fly a kite if you can't guarantee that no one
can get into the danger zone faster than you
can land/crash it. Long visibility is required
for big kites. I have destroyed kites twice by
deliberately crashing them when people wandered
onto the field where I was flying.
As to danger, I feel that this is a decision which
must be made by informed individuals (whether to
endanger self and whether to endanger others.)
You can't make that decision without information.
People *will* try flying kites too powerful to
hold. How they do it should be as safe as they
and the collective experience of all kiters can
make it. Launching assistants (who may have to
be downwind) must make their own informed
decisions as to whether to participate.
Andrew, keep on warning people, but don't fall
into the trap of thinking that people won't
keep pushing the edge of the envelope. I'm
a 'warner' myself; ask me for my warning
on lines snapping under tension, sometime.
Example: my Q&D calculations suggest that
a 5# cleat could exceed the speed of sound
after being ripped out of a boat deck by
a 200' braided nylon line. Now *that* is
a fast, heavy, jagged bullet! Don't ever
stand in line with a rope under tension.
--
--Pete <pwm...@mail.msen.com>
The prudent mariner will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation.
<printed repeatedly in NOAA publications>