banquet awards
Lam Hoac
AWARDS on Saturday night, Darin Skiner told me that one
lady brought it back to the Hotel, but he forgot the lady's name.Anyway,
if anyone know or see it, please let know. Thank-you very much guy.
lmh...@neptune.on.ca ( 905 - 775 - 0872 )
For trick shoot out is gone too far, everthing you do, you have to follow
the name of the game, you can not mix it , otherwise people will get
confuse, or you have to change the name or the rules of the game , if you
do this way evryone will be happy and we're going to have lot of fun. :)
Lam Hoac
SportKite1
> For trick shoot out is gone too far, everthing you do, you have to follow
>the name of the game, you can not mix it , otherwise people will get
>confuse, or you have to change the name or the rules of the game , if you
>do this way evryone will be happy and we're going to have lot of fun. :)
>
>Lam Hoac
Hi,
I'm going to jump in here, so maybe someone can clarify a couple points for me.
We here in Eugene, Oregon are hoping to get an unconventional dual/quad line
comp festival going this next year, so if I could get some more information
that would be great. It's our goal to have an Indoor comp, an
Innovative/Freestyle comp and a Trick Shoot Out. There just aren't enough
competitors to do a full board stunt kite comp, so we're thinking that it would
be cool to address the most publically exciting events we know of.
What I understood the un-official name of Trick Shoot Out to be was where two
flyers would try to outdo each other in difficulty & execution of fairly well
recognized tricks. Starting from basics like Fade, 540 Flat spin, Helicopter,
Flic Flacs...etc and moving into more radical tricks as demonstrated at the
Prism website for example.
It has been my understanding that this new catagory has been judged by audience
participation at various festivals, which is great, but I thought that
eventually it would be judged by trained flyers who could recognize the nuances
that maybe another non-trick flyer wouldn't. I guess that from reading about
the Euro-trick shootouts and the gaining popularity here in the US, this might
evolve into a "pointed" and official stunt kite competition down the road.
I've seen the Freestyle/Innovative comps and saw them to be one of those
anything goes type things, where showmanship really counts towards scores. From
flying yo-yo's during the routine, changing kites, doing handflips and catching
the controls, tricking til it hurts, etc...this seemed to be the platform of
this event.
So, back to my question at hand. I love the idea of both events. Non-flying
spectators will enjoy the gymnastics of the Innovative Trick flyer...and that's
cool. But would the average new flyer, think to themselves...now that's
something I want to aspire to?
Where as with what I understood a true Trick Shoot Out to be, is something
exciting that prospectives would say, hey, I want to try that, it looks cool
and attainable with alot of practice and the right equipment.
Not everyone is cut out to be an Expert AND a Performer, but I think that there
are those who would like the opportunity to compete on a level that they can
train for, excel at without the extra burden of showmanship, altho don't get me
wrong, I think that many trixsters are very artistic. It's just that,
"performer" thing that is confusing me.
So, if anyone in the AKA circle could do a little "gazing into the crystal
ball", how do you see the Trick Shoot Out in the future? Will it be an
expansion on the Innovative/Freestyle event or an entirely different entity
unto itself?
Thanks! Ellen
Mike Emery
sport...@aol.com (SportKite1) wrote:
> We here in Eugene, Oregon are hoping to get an unconventional
dual/quad line
> comp festival going this next year, so if I could get some more
information
> that would be great. It's our goal to have an Indoor comp, an
> Innovative/Freestyle comp and a Trick Shoot Out. There just aren't
enough
> competitors to do a full board stunt kite comp, so we're thinking that
it would
> be cool to address the most publically exciting events we know of.
Nice to see some more people trying to get some local competitions off
the ground ("This is a lo-cal competiton for lo-cal people" - thanks to
the League of Gentlemen).
Here's some pointers:
http://www.kmd-sportdrakar.com/nkc-eng/ Nordic Kite Challenge
http://freestyle.kites.org.uk/rules.html Andy Wardley's Freestyle
Knockout
http://freestyle.kites.org.uk/technkl.html Andy Wardley's Technical
Freestyle
http://www.quicktrends.com/quick/indrls.htm Indoor Kiting
If anyone intends to utilise these or any other rules, do ask permission
of the person or body involved. It's only polite.
Mike.
--
Currently at 72deg 00' 57"N 16deg 36' 21"E
Which is a long way north of nowhere.
Mike is supposed to be working. Shhh.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve Hall
competitions (yet) I think it would be years before I'd have the
skills,experience and confidence to enter precision or ballet competition.
And the freestyle event, while fun to watch, is not something I see my self
doing...the entertainer aspect does put me off. (And I assure you no one
wants to see me pouring water over myself or getting pants'ed).
However, a 2 minute (or so) no holds barred, kite whacking, AC/DC blaring,
flic-flackin', back spinning, total trick off (automatic DQ for any square
corners)...now that's something that might get me to make the trip north to
Eugene! (Oooo, the Gem is twitching in the corner).
Anyway, my opinion, my perspective, ooops! my bedtime...nite!
--
...later...
Steve
kite...@cmc.net
http://www.cmc.net/~kitekids/
"the difference between men and boys
is the price of their kites"
SportKite1 <sport...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001015183335...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
| >From: "Lam Hoac" lmh...@neptune.on.ca
|
| > For trick shoot out is gone too far, everthing you do, you have to
follow
| >the name of the game, you can not mix it , otherwise people will get
| >confuse, or you have to change the name or the rules of the game , if you
| >do this way evryone will be happy and we're going to have lot of fun. :)
| >
| >Lam Hoac
|
| Hi,
| I'm going to jump in here, so maybe someone can clarify a couple points
for me.
| We here in Eugene, Oregon are hoping to get an unconventional dual/quad
line
| comp festival going this next year, so if I could get some more
information
| that would be great. It's our goal to have an Indoor comp, an
| Innovative/Freestyle comp and a Trick Shoot Out. There just aren't enough
| competitors to do a full board stunt kite comp, so we're thinking that it
would
| be cool to address the most publically exciting events we know of.
|
lloyd berriman
Love your ideas, and I'm sure you'll make it work whatever 'it' turns out
to be. I agree with what both Lam and Mike have said. I would offer an
opinion I've formed over many years (probably worth what it's costing you).
Aim to delight different interests with DIFFERENT scheduled events. One
annual festival I go to has the philosophy " People can come if they wish to
watch kitefliers enjoying themselves".
Another (heavily sponsored) festival is "work" for the fliers, who are there
to amuse the crowd (luckily we usually enjoy our work).
Most festivals fall somewhere between these two extremes, and some of the
best plan one or two events specifically to please either crowd or fliers. I
once saw a teen with a (first) kite straight from the traders, enter the
'trick' competition for a dare. He got the most crowd reaction as he crashed
and wrapped (it was hilarious!). No one was happy! The crowd felt cheated
that their applause didn't count, the newbie who thought he should get
something for his 'entertainment', the seasoned fliers who felt their skills
devalued, and the besieged organiser was suicidal, trying to avoid being
murdered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The next year I noticed they had an "invitation" and seperate "open" comp,
with a few kites available for anyone to enter the "open" i.e. Open to
ANYONE. The invitation comp had rules, and judging (influenced by the
crowd?). The Open was open to ANYTHING, judged by the crowd (influenced by
the commentator). This was turned into a cabaret by some of the invitees. It
was wonderful.
Now it may be a little semantic, or the fact we're seperated by a common
language, but how can you judge "anything goes"? And how do the public get
to understand the relative merits of competitors in "innovative". It's
'innovative' to land without breaking something for most of us!
I think the best approach I've seen is to make something very simple, for
the crowd to get involved in (including participation), and something
seperate which is difficult for the fliers, so they can strive to be better
fliers (not necessarily better cabaret artistes).
As an aside, the treasure island "fiasco" thread pointed out to me
something that I feel should be resolved internationally - "novice"! There
is a world of difference between 'novice' flier, and 'novice' competitor
(who may be the same person). But that's another story.
love'n'joy
Lloyd
Mike Emery
"lloyd berriman" <lloyd.b...@mail.nospamredbricks.org.uk> wrote:
> As an aside, the treasure island "fiasco" thread pointed out to me
> something that I feel should be resolved internationally - "novice"!
There
> is a world of difference between 'novice' flier, and 'novice'
competitor
> (who may be the same person). But that's another story.
From the IRB. Section I - Definitions. Part C
Skill levels shall be defined by each Sanctioning Authority.
The method of determining a competitor's skill level shall be defined
by each Sanctioning Authority.
(Sanctioning Authority means AJSKA, AKA and STACK separately).
wal t park
>
> So, if anyone in the AKA circle could do a little "gazing into the crystal
> ball", how do you see the Trick Shoot Out in the future? Will it be an
> expansion on the Innovative/Freestyle event or an entirely different entity
> unto itself?
>
> Thanks! Ellen
<$0.02>
Excellent points. I would agree that the trick comp was entertaining, but it was
not really about trix, and unfortunately the juges declared it that way at the
beginning, by saying that the event would be judged on entertainment appeal.
So really, it turned into something more like innovative with attitude , minus
costumes. If we want to use this style of competition to showcase "trix" then
we are not doing it justice by encouraging dry humping your opponent. (Not a
slam Scott, cuz I thought it was funny esp in light of Rons strip tease spotlight)
But really it wasnt about the trix, which I was hoping it would be. I think if it
were strictly about trix, the finals would have been like Ron G, and Drew D, who
were probably pulling out the most trix in that comp.
I understand this is new, and we should expect the need to work out the bumps,
but I dont think the AKA "Trick Shootout" was done in a manner to promote or
showcase tricks. The competitors had the goods, the announcers did a great job,
but the judges were not given anything specific to judge on other than
"entertainment"
value.
As far as how should it be run, that's a hard question. To compare apples to
apples
we'd need set trick compulsories, or at least categories. Maybe break it into 3
20-sec blox and one 30 sec. That way it's still the same length, but you can break
it
into groups like 20 second rotation (axel /flatspin)group, 20 second pitch
(flic flac/fade/turtle) group, 20 sec ground (stab/takeoffs/etc) group, and a 30
sec
combo shootout for the final.
If we wanna show/do trix for trix, we need to keep the focus on trix, whether its
through categories, or through compulsories, or through HORSE type shoot out.
Just using "Entertainment value" is too open. What if someone wants to stake a
single line and sing Karaoke? Technically they can, but is that what you'd call
trick shoot out? It might be entertaining, but the focus isnt what you can make
a kite do.
As far as what do we want the trick shootout to become? I was hoping it would
address the developing discipline of trick flying. It seems to me that it is the
logical next category of control. Precision defines the control of flight, ballet
defines the art of flight, and trickshootout would showcase the control of
non-flight.
Innovative I dont really understand, and seems to be the catchall, which is why
I think trick shoot out fell into that style at AKA. That's what happens when you
dont really make rules and leave it open. I am not advocating this at all for
trick
shootout since I believe it really is a discipline.
Contrary to some "old school" concepts that Tricks are for kids, or people that
want to flop around without control, most of the serious trick fliers I have met
have spent alot of time studying what makes a kite work without flying. Practicing
for hours to perfect a single trick or combination, and I think it's becoming time
that
we are recognized as part of Kiting, not as those guys that flop around on the
side at
festivals and competitions. And for all those that think that's all we are, take a
look
around at your next festival. Look at the number of people experimenting with trix
on the sidelines and compare it to how many you saw last year, or the year before.
Something needs to be done to address the fliers that are working in the sport and
can not be part of the existing competition structure. I hope that what ever
format
is chosen, that it highlights/rewards skills in flight and control instead of
highlighting
antics. How can an event be serious if it is structured in a way that the fliers
are not
taking it seriously?
</$0.02>
Jamey Fountain
informed, I'll be there, maybe find someone to split a room and a rental car
with!
--
Jamey Fountain
http://home.swbell.net/jameyf/index.htm
If you aren't enjoying life, you're living it wrong
Mike Emery
wal t park <walt...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> As far as how should it be run, that's a hard question. To compare
apples to
> apples
> we'd need set trick compulsories, or at least categories.
See "Tehcnical Freestyle" concept as per earlier in this thread.
I can see major philosophical debate raging over Tricks vs. Freestyle.
They ain't da same ting ! A Freestyle flyer would consider anything
compulsory to be anathema. I like the looseness and "let's do the show
right here !" nature of Freestyle Knockout personally.
> As far as what do we want the trick shootout to become? I was hoping
it would
> address the developing discipline of trick flying. It seems to me that
it is the
> logical next category of control. Precision defines the control of
flight, ballet
> defines the art of flight, and trickshootout would showcase the
control of
> non-flight.
Hmmm. A "trick" is just another piece of flying. There is nothing
stopping it becoming a compulsory figure for Precision, assuming someone
can write up a description with sufficient accuracy and clarity. I would
not be happy just seeing the simple and fast tricks being used. Good
Precision figures demonstrate PROLONGED control over the kite, not just
a flyer's ability to twitch.
One of the best pieces of competitive flying that I ever saw as a judge
was a Fade in Precision Freestyle. It didn't move left or right, up or
down, clockwise or counterclockwise. Just held there for a few seconds
then recover and continue. Prolonged control in a trick, see ?
> Contrary to some "old school" concepts that Tricks are for kids, or
people that
> want to flop around without control, most of the serious trick fliers
I have met
> have spent alot of time studying what makes a kite work without
flying.
You won't get far on the European competition scene without seriously
pushing the limits of what a kite/flyer is capable of doing. In
Individual, Pairs or Team.
wal t park
> I can see major philosophical debate raging over Tricks vs. Freestyle.
> They ain't da same ting ! A Freestyle flyer would consider anything
> compulsory to be anathema. I like the looseness and "let's do the show
> right here !" nature of Freestyle Knockout personally.
I was not disagreeing with you. I like the head to head too. The only thing
I thought was wrong was that it was not necessarily about tricks, but about
attitude, and showmanship. It was entertaining and I think it was still
fun,
but it was not showcasing "trick/freestyle" . It was showcasing antics, and
although it was great fun, it was less about the flying and more about a
performance and what wierdness could be brought to the field like switching
flyers mid 30 sec round, gyrating body parts, etc. It was all fun, but it
was not
focusing on the flying. I'm guesssing the Euro trick outs have a much
different
flavor, but I could be wrong.
> Hmmm. A "trick" is just another piece of flying. There is nothing
> stopping it becoming a compulsory figure for Precision, assuming someone
> can write up a description with sufficient accuracy and clarity. I would
> not be happy just seeing the simple and fast tricks being used. Good
> Precision figures demonstrate PROLONGED control over the kite, not just
> a flyer's ability to twitch.
Absolutely. It is another piece of flying, but it's a piece that doesnt
have a
place in the current structure. You could say well.... why do we need
precision?
Why not just incorporate precision into ballet, and incorporate the trix in
there
too and only have one event? Because they are different disciplines that
focus
on different things. Precision is just that. Flying precisely, which does
not always
lend itself to great musical interpretation. You could put all trix in your
freestyle
section of precision, but that might not be judged well either, since it's
"precision"
which has a focus on figures, proportions, etc, which is not what trick
flying's
focus is about.
You could put trix in your ballet, but then you get judged down for putting
lots of
trix in your ballet. My ballet routine had alot of trix, most of which
I thought were
placed well and done to the beat. When I talked to judges, most of them
said, "You
have too many tricks, and it detracts from the ballet." In a way, I can
understand
that, which is why I can understand why they chose Tom B. as the EIB winner
this
year. He had very few trix, but he flew the right stuff at the right times
for his music.
I think he's a great interpretive flyer, and I think it's great that he
won.
So if we're not supposed throw fast furious trix in either precision or
ballet, where
should they be placed? That's why I think trick off is needed and should be
more
focused on trix rather than show. Show is what Freestyle (AKA freestyle,
not uk type)
seems to focus on as well as innovative flying styles.
> One of the best pieces of competitive flying that I ever saw as a judge
> was a Fade in Precision Freestyle. It didn't move left or right, up or
> down, clockwise or counterclockwise. Just held there for a few seconds
> then recover and continue. Prolonged control in a trick, see ?
But here's the dillema again. Precision's focus is on figures. If you
dont think so
why are compulsories worth 60% of the score? I'm not sure that precision's
focus
should be on anything else.
Ballet's focus is on artistic interpretation of music through flight.
Trick off's focus should be on tricks.
If you want to glob them into one event, then you will limit what you can
do with
any of the disciplines and still have something that will be judgeable. So
it seems
to me the best thing to do would be to make the events focus on what they
are
trying to showcase. Which isnt to say bits of other stuff shouldnt be
used, its just
that they will not be the focus. People compare it to spice and food.
Who's to say
what should be the food and spice? Grilled chicken, chicken ceasar salad,
chicken
noodle soup. Is the meat the body or the flavor? Soup cookoff, is the
grilled
chicken going to win? In a barbeque, is the salad going to win? Does that
mean that
there isnt a place for all of them on the menu?
Walt
SportKite1
Hi Walt,
Wow, this thread is getting really interesting. Mike Gilliard, AKA Festivals
and Competitions Chair, responded to my post via email. I just wish he had
posted to the group as well. He clarified his stance regarding the HTSO, but
without his permission I would feel awkward quoting him here.
That being said, I wrote back to him and had the following responses to his
comments:
I guess it does slow things down to have all the rules, judges and procedures,
but then that's sort of the name of the game. This isn't exactly hockey or
basketball...lol. And there are lots of people who enjoy "competing". It's a
great part of the appeal. But with the Trick Shoot Out or whatever title this
sort of activity goes by, it's certainly becoming as much a part of the stunt
kite scene as precision and ballet. I sort of think of it like this, using a
bicycling analogy. Maybe Ballet/Precision is the Tour De France, but Tricking
is BMX. Not the same, but certainly big enough in popularity where I can see
people wanting to jump into the competitive ring with it.
(my response to Mike's comment that he didn't know that Revolutions were
capable of tricking to the degree that was shown off at the AKA HTSO)
This may be true, but the largest growing market in Stunt kites is not
Revolutions or traditional comp kites, but TRICK kites. When Martin Shoeb and
Andy Preston took this concept and built kites that did all sorts of wild slack
line manuevers, it heralded the coming of a new kid on the block and man is he
getting bigger and stronger than anything we've seen happen to kiting in years.
In fact, with the exception of trick kites, it would appear to me that very
little is being done in way of innovation in the sport. (not counting water
sports or buggying)
You have Prism Kites doing TRICK VIDEOS...both on their site and in tape form.
You have almost every kite manufacturer designing kites specifically to perform
tricks. Dodd may or may not have started this "trick thing" in a commercial
sense with his tapes (and by accident...which is the best story that ever hit
stunt kiting...hehehehe...gotta love Dodd for that!).
Undeniably, trick flying has come into its' own and is ready to be acknowledged
as something more than appearing to flop around uncontrollably, as was so
succinctly put, WALT!
Maybe the answer lies in not a Pro-Circuit like Jon Trennepohl has suggested
but a Freestyle specific circuit that could marry the two elements into
something entirely new and exciting.
Get some interested established event promoters or heck, newbies like me, to
collectively put on 6-8 Freestyle Events per year - run as Opens - in various
regions throughout the states, and I bet we see some pretty big numbers of
folks coming out for them.
Now here's a forum I can see strong Industry participation in. Heck, if I were
Mark Reed, I would start the Prism Freestyle Open and sponsor four of them a
year in different areas around the country. (Mark...if you read this or hear
about this I wanna hold the first one here in Eugene!!!! We got the perfect
location for it & a great volunteer crew who will work like dogs to make it a
success)
I have to thank Mike Emery for directing me to Andy Wardley's freestyle
directives. Man, those are so cool, and I think will form a good jumping off
place for even a small local event like the one we're planning here in Eugene
next year.
<silly mode> I've been talking to some other alternative tricksters here in
town and maybe we can combine the event with some 'Rang Tossin, Juggling, Yo
Yo'in and Frisbee'n. Maybe the answer is to break trick kiting free from the
restrictions of traditional kiting. Kite Juggling? Kites that Return to you?
Heck, they already Yo-Yo...hehehehehehe. </silly>
Thanks Walt.....fun topic!
Ellen
James Hodson
wrote:
>I'm guesssing the Euro trick outs have a much different
>flavor, but I could be wrong.
>
they've all been held as per Andy Wardley's web site "instructions".
Manic, 100mph tricks aren't the be all and end all of tricking but if a
trick flyer can do his stuff quickly whilst still keeping the kite under
control (no flopping about) then he/she will tend to get louder applause
from the audience, and they're the judges after all. Of course, one can
perform one's manoeuvres too quickly so that everything becomes a blur.
It's technically difficult and precise in its own way but I prefer a nice
mix of fast and slow stuff - which I guess is bordering on ballet.
I've not seen anyone give a "performance" in the sense of putting on a
show. The flying is what counts.
I guess that putting on a show would be fun to watch but it seems to me
that the focus is moving away from the actual flying, which is surely what
it all should be about.
On a personal note, I try to make my tricks as defined as possible with as
little flopping about as possible. I try to make it clear that what I'm
doing is intentional. Precision tricks, if you like. I've never entered any
type of comp., FWIW, but that's how I see it and that's how I try to fly at
my local flying field.
James
--
"Watch the kite, not where you're going!"
(RB 29/8/98)
John Barresi
>What I understood the un-official name of Trick Shoot Out to be was where two
>flyers would try to outdo each other in difficulty & execution of fairly well
>recognized tricks. Starting from basics like Fade, 540 Flat spin, Helicopter,
>Flic Flacs...etc and moving into more radical tricks as demonstrated at the
>Prism website for example.
The only expansion I know of on this particular aspect in an event I
attended in Whidbey Island WA this last September is that each of the
two fliers were on the field together, flying 30 second "spots" in
rotating order for the duration of a three minute "mystery" song. In
essence, a quick draw style tricks and showmanship event. I thought it
was pretty neat to see the way the two fliers parry each spot like
dueling kites or something. Thumbs up.
>I've seen the Freestyle/Innovative comps and saw them to be one of those
>anything goes type things, where showmanship really counts towards scores. From
>flying yo-yo's during the routine, changing kites, doing handflips and catching
>the controls, tricking til it hurts, etc...this seemed to be the platform of
>this event.
Oddly enough this event is somewhat rare on the west coast as of
late, at least in the Northwest, it's primarily just demos and no
competition.
In the end, we could probably refresh our approach to competition
events in general... Rules have always been pretty much irrelevent to
me as an obstacle, I mean why stop and nitpick the hurdles? Just jump
over them... Rules shape themselves through the way competitors carry
themselves and affect the sport. I think our focus needs to shift to
redefining competition so that it is more versatile to the weather
conditions... I mean why WOULD a company like Pepsi give us $20,000
with which to fund a kick *ss event when it has a possible 30% chance
of being a difficult show? We need back up ideas, exposure and
promotion, design the events so that the show is almost almost non
stop and regularly changing in tempo and style. I think that the
flyers would come to like it... There are always kite festivals if you
want to fun fly. I prefer to fly for fun AND a challenge.
>Not everyone is cut out to be an Expert AND a Performer, but I think that there
>are those who would like the opportunity to compete on a level that they can
>train for, excel at without the extra burden of showmanship, altho don't get me
>wrong, I think that many trixsters are very artistic. It's just that,
>"performer" thing that is confusing me.
My opinion only mind you, I have always believed that excelling in a
sport meant that you were a performer. Who's job is it to make this
fledging, sometimes struggling sport known to the people that have not
been close enough to understand it? Probably those that have an avenue
to large enough to stop and take it in, such as comps and large
festivals.
>So, if anyone in the AKA circle could do a little "gazing into the crystal
>ball", how do you see the Trick Shoot Out in the future? Will it be an
>expansion on the Innovative/Freestyle event or an entirely different entity
>unto itself?
(To anyone in general) Can we look at it while keeping in mind that
we as a sport could definitely use an event more tailored to deliver a
ethically marketable sport that can grow steadily? We are performers
as well, if you haven't found out. I like putting on a show, that's
what makes my hair stand on end... When I feel the audience catch
their breath while you defy the air/ground ratio and so on.
Outie,
John Barresi
John Barresi
<lloyd.b...@mail.nospamredbricks.org.uk> wrote:
> I think the best approach I've seen is to make something very simple, for
>the crowd to get involved in (including participation), and something
>seperate which is difficult for the fliers, so they can strive to be better
>fliers (not necessarily better cabaret artistes).
I saw an event in Whidbey Island where people were actively
encouraged to enter a "beginner" class where the field staff had a
seperate pre-flight meeting and had a 15 minute briefing on the subtle
points and to forget about it and have fun... The field director kept
up the help with comforting and knowledgable advice while with each
flyer. BTW: kudos to Fred Marchand for doing a fantastic job! There
were eight entries as I recall... Not bad for an event albeit
excellently run and promoted had a relatively small spectator base to
attract from.
> As an aside, the treasure island "fiasco" thread pointed out to me
>something that I feel should be resolved internationally - "novice"! There
>is a world of difference between 'novice' flier, and 'novice' competitor
>(who may be the same person). But that's another story.
^5
John
Mike Emery
>doesnt have a place in the current structure.
Why ever not ? At a STACK event you'll see plenty of tricks in the
Precision Freestyle and plenty more in the Ballet. This schism between
what constitutes Precision and Tricks is entirely false. A "trick" can
be performed with exquisite precision and can also be used to superbly
illustrate a piece of music. Quite why judges and competitors alike seem
to wish to divide these things up eludes me.
The Freestyle Knockout competitions attracts those people to whom normal
competition holds no attraction and to the traditional competitors who
want to have a bit of a laugh.
> You could put trix in your ballet, but then you get judged down for
> putting lots of trix in your ballet.
On what grounds does this occur ? The aim of Ballet is choreography. If
your flying (I don't care whether or not its tricks) is appropriate to
the music then it's good ballet and should be scored accordingly.
>When I talked to judges, most of them said, "You have too many tricks,
>and it detracts from the ballet."
Try this: replace the word "tricks" with "flying". Does it still make
any sense to you ? It doesn't to me.
> That's why I think trick off is needed and should be more focused on
>trix rather than show.
Freestyling/tricking is however perceived quite differently to figures/
ballet and a competitive event focussed on it's qualities seems entirely
reasonable, without the need to dress up/do handstands/strip naked in
the manner of the old Innovative (which, as far as I am concerned, was
a popularity contest).
> But here's the dillema again. Precision's focus is on figures. If
> you dont think so why are compulsories worth 60% of the score? I'm not
> sure that precision's focus should be on anything else.
So make a trick into a figure. The compulsory book already includes
Cornered Axel. Why not more ?
Nice bit about the chicken, Walt. :-) I'll throw that into my next
flyers' briefing. "More chicken !"
wal t park
> In article <39EC835C...@prodigy.net>,
> wal t park <walt...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Absolutely. It is another piece of flying, but it's a piece that
> >doesnt have a place in the current structure.
>
> Why ever not ? At a STACK event you'll see plenty of tricks in the
> Precision Freestyle and plenty more in the Ballet. This schism between
> what constitutes Precision and Tricks is entirely false. A "trick" can
> be performed with exquisite precision and can also be used to superbly
> illustrate a piece of music. Quite why judges and competitors alike seem
> to wish to divide these things up eludes me.
It really depends on what you think precision is about. You are absolutely
right about being able to do a trick precisely, but precision is about
flying,
and flying precisely. Tricking is mostly anti-flying, ie slack/stall
maneuvers.
Precision's focus is on figures, making defined shapes, lines, etc. Like I
said,
you probably wil draw bits from trix into precision, but it's still about
precision
and not about trix. There are trix that do not lend themselves to precision
just
as there are precision figures that do not lend themselves to to ballet
very well.
Those maneuvers are no less "good" but by saying their place is in an event
that
doesnt suit them more or less condems them to never be used.
> The Freestyle Knockout competitions attracts those people to whom normal
> competition holds no attraction and to the traditional competitors who
> want to have a bit of a laugh.
I wasnt saying otherwise. I was just saying that the way we do it, it's
less about
flying than about show, which is not what I think it should be. It should
be about
the tricks, the flying, or non-flying, however you want to look at it. I
also get a
a distinct feeling that what happens in UK is much different than how it's
flown
here, which might be your confusion.
> > You could put trix in your ballet, but then you get judged down for
> > putting lots of trix in your ballet.
>
> On what grounds does this occur ? The aim of Ballet is choreography. If
> your flying (I don't care whether or not its tricks) is appropriate to
> the music then it's good ballet and should be scored accordingly.
I say this on the grounds of experience. I am always told that "You have
too
many tricks. They are good, but you have too many of them too close
together
and although they might be to the music, they seem less difficult because
you
do so many of them." I'm not sure I agree with that, since a non trick
routine
only can do straight lines, corners, and curves, but you dont see people
saying,
you have too many corners and curves, they are getting repetitive and make
them look too easy. You should spread the time you fly out between
non-flying.
Why? because what they are doing is the point of the event. Tricks are not
the
emphasis. Which isnt to say they should be excluded, just that I cant do
all the
trix I'd want to in a ballet routine. Maybe STACK is different, but in the
US events
for the most part heavy trick flying will lose it for you. I've
experienced it quite a
bit, and have been told so by alot of MIB fliers. Unfortunately that's the
way it is
currently in the US.
So if we are not supposed to do it in ballet, where should it be done? In
precision
Freestyle? That's a possibility, but is the best place to put a "trick
showcase" at
the end of a "Precision" event? What happens if it's league style and you
use your
transition bits doing trix? are you going to be scored on par with someone
that is
flying clean figures as transitions?
AKA convention this year will be using standard style (3 figs, then 2 mins
of freestyle)
but the events leading to that can choose to do it either leage or
standard. So what
would a trick flier do? Only pick the events in the region doing std style?
What if there
arent enough events to qualify for nationals then? Is it going to be worth
driving all
over the place, shelling out a couple hundred dollars on entry, hotel,
food, etc every
couple weeks even if you know you wont be able to get to the final because
half of
the events you need to get there arent going to be run in a way that fits
the way you
want to fly? I dont think so.
But if trick flying is it's own event, ...... then you know that what you
are entering is
what you are going for and will get to a finals.
So basically it seems to me that the events should be focusing on what they
are
intended to show. Mix in a little of other stuff for accent and call it
soup.
> Try this: replace the word "tricks" with "flying". Does it still make
> any sense to you ? It doesn't to me.
Right, it doesnt make sense to say you fly too much, because that is what
they are
supposed to be doing in that event. It's not "Trick interpretation of
Music" and the
score sheets only have 2 sections, execution and choreography. There's no
"tricks"
box, and that's probably why judges do not know what to do with it. Face
it, as a
judge going on the field for ballet, it's all pretty much vague anyway. How
do you judge
a bit that doesnt fit anything on your sheet and isnt even really
recognized as flying?
For the most part it seems that the score comes down to X+Y-b=Total score
where
X=how much did I like it
Y=how clean did it look
b=how many visible mistakes can the judges agree on.
Now that all sounds ok, but what is "it"? Which is where trix get lost
because judges
are thinking "it" is flying, not slack line stuff. Slack is "accent" and
flying is "meat" and
in retrospect, I am starting to agree, and I'm very much a trick flyer.
> > But here's the dillema again. Precision's focus is on figures. If
> > you dont think so why are compulsories worth 60% of the score? I'm not
> > sure that precision's focus should be on anything else.
>
> So make a trick into a figure. The compulsory book already includes
> Cornered Axel. Why not more ?
what's a good axel? super slo-mo and flat or faster pop/stop? How do you
write that
into a description? What if you're precision is flying a prodancer SUL. Why
force
something into an event where it would be better in its own event? Once
again, I am
not saying precision should be pure precision, but I dont think that is
where trick flying
should be placed. Why keep it a sideshow when there are enough
players/audience to
make it a main event?
> Nice bit about the chicken, Walt. :-) I'll throw that into my next
> flyers' briefing. "More chicken !"
:) I liked that one too.
Walt
Tom
Thanks for the compliment. I am honored that I could win against some really
fantastic flyers like yourself. I Had to interpret my music well because I
knew I was not as good at tricks as you were. Thanks also for the lessons in
TI. I think you are right and the trick shout out was more of a freestyle
shoot out than it was a true trick shoot out. Andey Wardley has a
description of a trick shoot out that I have to check out. Maybe since we
are trying to do everything else the same as the Europeans we should try to
be consistent in this area also. I found a booklet I plan to send to you
that I got on team and pairs flying. As soon as I copy it I will send it too
you if you like. I will need your snail mail address. Thanks again for the
compliment. Boop says Hi.
Tom
aka Kite Boy
wal t park
You more than deserve the compliments. I don't think you realize how well
you "fly". Your ballet does great without trix because you "fly" the music
and
you do it well, which is what I'm really starting to understand about ballet.
I
am starting to realize that I am aproaching ballet wrong. I am trying to force
my style of flying into a song rather than just fly the song. It's a strange
thing
to understand, but I think I get it now. There's alotta people trying to make
events into something they are not intended to be because they want to do
stuff rather than do what they are supposed to. That was my downfall, and
I think it took someone that can fly music to show me that. There's just some
thing in ballet that I always lack. There are people that are good at doing
things
technically with a kite, and then there are those that can just fly. It's
something
I dont quite understand and have difficulty doing. Like the way you flew, and
David Bui. His batman/superman routines were just awesome, and only had like
stall, stab, and cartwheel. But it's about the right thing at the right time,
which
is really one of your strengths. Anyway, it's something I need to work on.
If you get a chance to see/buy "Winning Performances" by skyburner, do. It's
got
video of Bui's routines. The other stuff sux (oops. sorry John) but it's worth
it
for the Bui stuff.
Anyway, If you could get a copy of that book, it would be great. My snail mail
is:
Walt Park
3815 N Farwell Ave
Shorewood Wi, 53211
Tell Boop I sayz "Hello"
Have a good one.
Peace and good winds. See ya next year. Oh yeah... Move UP!!!!!!!!
Walt