Written 4 ball mills' mess tutorial
Sondre Øverby
sometime, but right now I am busy... with school. Ironic, yes?
4 BALL MILLS' MESS TUTORIAL
By Sondre
If you want to learn the move known as 4 ball mills' mess, you must be
aware of a few things before you proceed to attempt learning it. First of
all, keep in mind that this is a reverse fountain where you throw the
balls to other places than in the regular basic pattern. But the balls
remain in the hand they originally came from, which means you have to move
your hands after them to catch them.
One other important thing to keep in mind, is that whenever you are
throwing a ball from a hand position, you are also catching a ball in that
same position. This means that for an underarm throw, there is also an
underarm catch. This is very important to remember, or else you will end
up doing one windmill on each side, which both looks freakishly ugly and
is much too hard to get solid.
So for a start, remember that all the balls thrown are caught by that same
hand. In the 3 ball version, every ball goes up a tiny bit before it is
caught, in the 4 ball version you are making a catch for some other ball
after one is thrown. Let's see how we start running the pattern.
You want to get a line of some sort to go into mills' mess, wether it is
3, 4, 6 or 9 ball mess you are thinking about. This is easily done by
creating a reverse pattern, covering all the balls that are in the air. So
basically you must do 2 reverse throws of 4 ball fountain. Remember, two,
not one. If you think you can go into 5 ball mess with one reverse throw,
you are right, but it's harder than with 3. As with 6 and 7 balls, and so
on.
I would recommend starting with 4 balls in your hands, and then throwing
one ball from your right in a crossing pattern. Then you do a throw with
your left that crosses OVER this throw, while crossing your left hand over
your right. Now you have your arms crossed with the right under the left,
and you will catch that right handed throw with your right hand while
making an outside throw with the same hand, almost straight up. The
outside throw you made with your left, will be caught in your left hand,
which now proceedes move back underneath the right hand. Your right will
move back to its regular placing, where it catches the ball that went
almost straight up, while doing an outside throw, as if you did a 5 ball
reverse cascade. The throw you just made from your left while moving that
hand away from the above-right position, will catch that left hand ball
underneath the right hand. Now your right is in the position where the
left was after the first two starting throws, and you make another throw
with your right before moving your left back to a regular fountain
placement for one more reverse throw. This is very simple to understand,
just go slowly through ths a couple times. Now we are back to where we
were after those first two throws. Good luck with that.
You can also use a multiplex entry. I use a duplex where I place two balls
in a vertical line in the air, and move my hands sideways «through» the
multiplex, catching the ball on the bottom first, obviously. You can make
this first throw lead the catching hand into an underarm position or
overarm position, you choose.
Keep in mind that the underarm throws are always going on the outside of
the pattern, as in OVER it. Many people make the underarm throw arc
underneath the ball that was thrown before it from the regular reverse
cascade position.
Go get'em tiger... Rawr :P
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Mark Nicoll
>
> I was bored in class today so I wrote this. I WILL make a video tutorial
> sometime, but right now I am busy... with school. Ironic, yes?
>
Hey. Thanks for this, it's something that has been bothering me a lot
lately. I've been badgering away at 4b mm for a several months now – my
best is 38 catches but my usual limit is 16 – 20 catches and then
collisions.
>
> 4 BALL MILLS' MESS TUTORIAL
> By Sondre
>
> If you want to learn the move known as 4 ball mills' mess, you must be
> aware of a few things before you proceed to attempt learning it. First of
> all, keep in mind that this is a reverse fountain where you throw the
> balls to other places than in the regular basic pattern. But the balls
> remain in the hand they originally came from, which means you have to move
> your hands after them to catch them.
>
For me at least, this could be a lot clearer. So far the information is
both something and nothing. It's not at all obvious what you mean by
saying you have to move your hands after the balls to catch them
because... what, otherwise they'd drop? Buh?
Perhaps another way of saying the same thing is to say that the pattern is
THEORETICALLY identical to the reverse fountain, with the hand movements
that are theoretically the same as 3 ball mills mess.
There are three different throws with each hand;
1)hand crossed over , regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 3)
2)hand crossed under, regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 1)
3)hands uncross, reverse fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 2)
For each hand, 2/3rds of the throws are on the opposite side of the
fountain (steps 1 and 2). The hands are crossed over but are making
regular fountain throws. It's only when the hands uncross that the lower
hand swings out over to it's own side and throws a reverse fountain throw
on its way back over (step 3). The ball thrown 'hand over' at step 1 is
caught 'hand under' before crossing over to the other side and being
thrown at step 3.
I got the idea of the overall pattern in a few weeks by practising 2 in 1
with the hand movements – it's THEORETICALLY quite simple, but in
practice...
I keep saying THEORETICALLY because in practice I keep getting nothing but
horrific collisions unless I change things a bit (although I often get
horrific collisions anyway, at least this way I convince myself I'm doing
something about it.
Once you get 2 in 1 hand it makes much more sense to actually consider the
the hands together, throwing swarms of 3 balls, ie -
(right swarm)
I) right hand: 1) over
II) left hand: 3) uncross
III) right hand: 2) under
(left swarm)
I) left hand: 1) over
II) right hand 3) uncross
III) left hand 2) under
(repeat)
I) Thrown close to centre, taking care to get it up and over the III) of
the opposite round)
II) Throw slightly outside of I) in order to avoid it
III) Reaching right under throw throw well clear, outside of II), careful
not to have it come in too far.
Please tell me if I'm talking nonsense here – this is just works best for
me, or at least it's the only way I manage to postpone ultimate
annihilation.
> One other important thing to keep in mind, is that whenever you are
> throwing a ball from a hand position, you are also catching a ball in that
> same position. This means that for an underarm throw, there is also an
> underarm catch.
I don't get this, what do you mean? When I try it, I get an overarm catch
from an underarm throw and vice versa.
>
> Go get'em tiger... Rawr :P
>
Meow.
Reuben
>
> There are three different throws with each hand;
>
> 1)hand crossed over , regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 3)
> 2)hand crossed under, regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 1)
> 3)hands uncross, reverse fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 2)
>
>
What exactly do you mean by regular fountain throw? If you mean not a
reverse cascade then something's wrong; all Mills Mess throws are made on
the outside of the incoming ball and are, by my definition at least,
reverse fountain throws.
Thanks,
Reuben
------------
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/uvideos.php?UID=347 (See the 6th video on
the list)
Mark Nicoll
>
>
> >
> > There are three different throws with each hand;
> >
> > 1)hand crossed over , regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 3)
> > 2)hand crossed under, regular fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 1)
> > 3)hands uncross, reverse fountain throw (opposite hand throws step 2)
> >
> >
>
> What exactly do you mean by regular fountain throw? If you mean not a
> reverse cascade then something's wrong; all Mills Mess throws are made on
> the outside of the incoming ball and are, by my definition at least,
> reverse fountain throws.
Yes, agreed, the overall pattern itself is a reverse fountain. What I
meant is that when a hand crosses over to the other side the throw it
actually makes is the same shape a regular fountain throw. It's just on
the other side of the body, which is why the overall pattern keeps the
reverse fountain shape.
Or have I completely lost the plot here?
Reuben
I suppose you could think of it that way, it hadn't occured to me. While
on the subject, a cascade with the arms switched but not crossed, (they
have to move a lot), could be called a reverse cascade.
Thanks,
Reuben
-------
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/uvideos.php?UID=347
Mark Nicoll
Hrm. Got a video of that little number?
I find it it damned tricky transferring words to a practical understanding
of a juggling patern, what with opposite sides of the brain being involved
in either case.
Reuben
I most certainly do, and of the crossed arm version. Unfortunately
(fortunately) you'll have to watch through most of this video to find it:
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=8d0c2d792a719dfb602e
It's worth it though! Otherwise, there's a short bit of it or the crossed
arm version in this video:
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=e5b1c2496fe1700e9d16
It's not that hard though. Just throw a ball from your left hand from the
right to the left side of your body and do the opposite on the other side.
As for the crossed arm version, that's a bit hard to explain.
Thanks,
Reuben
-------
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=e5b1c2496fe1700e9d16
Sondre Øverby
Sweet video man. This is OT, but anyway I haven't seen it before. Really
cool variations, and your 5 ball mess is very clean too. I was confused by
the 4 ball variation for a second, I might have to look through it a few
more times...
Mark Nicoll
> > Hrm. Got a video of that little number?
> >
>
> I most certainly do, and of the crossed arm version. Unfortunately
> (fortunately) you'll have to watch through most of this video to find it:
>
> http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=8d0c2d792a719dfb602e
>
heheh yeah, I've seen that one, fun stuff. I asume you were pointing to
the bit just before your cat 'happens'.
Mark Nicoll
time to think about juggling, to get the mind off the special level of
hell reserved for people who play Kate Bush and Billy Joel in the small
hours. ::
Sondre, I was just thinking about the difficulties of writing an effective
4bmm tutorial. It's not at all like describing a standard 3 ball pattern
where understanding it is half the battle. Relative to the difficulty of
actually running the pattern, it's quite easy to understand. Anyone who
seriously wants to 'get' the pattern will probably have put their mind to
figuring it out for themselves and got the gist of it fairly early on.
The problem is, understanding what goes where and even having a feel for
it doesn't seem to remotely help with running the pattern. For me at
least, it's taking an insane about of practice – my progress isn't much
faster than 5 balls- but I'm worried I've got myself into some bad habits,
like training myself to make collisions through repeating the same bad
moves.
What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
'correct' throws.
Cheers,
Mark
Le_lemGo
>
> :: 3.50am, neighbours are just starting loud party - seems like a good
> time to think about juggling, to get the mind off the special level of
> hell reserved for people who play Kate Bush and Billy Joel in the small
> hours. ::
>
> Sondre, I was just thinking about the difficulties of writing an effective
> 4bmm tutorial. It's not at all like describing a standard 3 ball pattern
> where understanding it is half the battle. Relative to the difficulty of
> actually running the pattern, it's quite easy to understand. Anyone who
> seriously wants to 'get' the pattern will probably have put their mind to
> figuring it out for themselves and got the gist of it fairly early on.
>
> The problem is, understanding what goes where and even having a feel for
> it doesn't seem to remotely help with running the pattern. For me at
> least, it's taking an insane about of practice – my progress isn't much
> faster than 5 balls- but I'm worried I've got myself into some bad habits,
> like training myself to make collisions through repeating the same bad
> moves.
Definitely agree here.
The best way of getting it, well, is to go for it!
Especially for such a difficult trick, I think no written description will
ever replace the good old 'try it
yourself' method.
And count several hundreds hours of practice before getting it solid.
Then, you'll probably be able to understand the written description.
> What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> 'correct' throws.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
A good way of getting around it is to do loads of stacked duplexes with
the mm arm movement. I
don't know the notation for these particular throws, but several are
really useful for getting a good
feeling of the pattern.
Try and play with the different possibilities, you'll eventually start to
get the pattern correctly, and
then you'll have to work a lot on it to get it solid.
But remember the most important advice, which Sondre forgot to mention:
Keep having fun no matter what!!
lemGo
Guy G
> What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> 'correct' throws.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
Well I'm a bit crap at 4bmm, but here's a list of easier sub patterns that
I found helped my (so far not astronomical) progress:
441 mills mess (1st 4 as underarm throw)
Guy
Mark Nicoll
Yeah, totally.
My personal best is 38 catches but that was on a singularly weird occasion
where, for a brief moment, it felt like I was watching someone else juggle
(and I haven't seen them since).
At the moment the sticking point is 16 – 20 catches which utterly baffles
me. It looks great for a few seconds and then, sure as anything, there's a
collision.
> > What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> > training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> > 'correct' throws.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
>
> A good way of getting around it is to do loads of stacked duplexes with
> the mm arm movement. I
> don't know the notation for these particular throws, but several are
> really useful for getting a good
> feeling of the pattern.
> Try and play with the different possibilities, you'll eventually start to
> get the pattern correctly, and
> then you'll have to work a lot on it to get it solid.
> But remember the most important advice, which Sondre forgot to mention:
> Keep having fun no matter what!!
>
> lemGo
>
Not at all confident with stacked duplexes but will have a go anyway...
I've been starting it the most straightforward way I can imagine - two in
one hand, top throw first, and attempting to run it from there. Is this a
particularly bad idea?
Guy G wrote:
>
> Mark Nicoll wrote:
> > What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> > training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> > 'correct' throws.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
>
> Well I'm a bit crap at 4bmm, but here's a list of easier sub patterns that
> I found helped my (so far not astronomical) progress:
>
> 441 mills mess (1st 4 as underarm throw)
>
> Guy
>
For some reason I find the 1 throw really hard with 441mm
Le_lemGo
Well, it sounds like you are able to do a few rounds consistently, right?
Then, you have the pattern, what you need is more practice, and you'll get
there.
Remember too that the rhythm is essential in this pattern.
>
> > > What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> > > training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> > > 'correct' throws.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> > A good way of getting around it is to do loads of stacked duplexes with
> > the mm arm movement. I
> > don't know the notation for these particular throws, but several are
> > really useful for getting a good
> > feeling of the pattern.
> > Try and play with the different possibilities, you'll eventually start to
> > get the pattern correctly, and
> > then you'll have to work a lot on it to get it solid.
> > But remember the most important advice, which Sondre forgot to mention:
> > Keep having fun no matter what!!
> >
> > lemGo
> >
>
> Not at all confident with stacked duplexes but will have a go anyway...
>
> I've been starting it the most straightforward way I can imagine - two in
> one hand, top throw first, and attempting to run it from there. Is this a
> particularly bad idea?
I have never actually learnt to start from a cold, so I can't help you on
this one.
For the duplexes, there are loads of ways of entering and exiting mills
mess. Try for example to
interrupt the pattern after the first round by keeping the one ball in
hand and continuing the pattern
as if it were there until you catch the second ball in the same hand, and
then, well, see if you can't find
something funny to do ;)
>
> Guy G wrote:
> >
> > Mark Nicoll wrote:
> > > What would be really useful would be a list of easier sub patterns and
> > > training methods to help get the coordination for making consistent
> > > 'correct' throws.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Mark
> >
> > Well I'm a bit crap at 4bmm, but here's a list of easier sub patterns that
> > I found helped my (so far not astronomical) progress:
> >
> > 441 mills mess (1st 4 as underarm throw)
> >
> > Guy
> >
>
> For some reason I find the 1 throw really hard with 441mm
>
>
For some reason, I can't get around 441mm... But 531mm definitely helps a
lot for 534mm :)
lemGo
markool89
Hehe the timing of this is bad for me. ive been learning it for ages, and
now i got it. And then you come and do this! How bloody typical!!