Can't Juggle 5 Balls - Need Longer Arms

[paradox]

I'm trying to learn to juggle 5 balls. I have made some pretty good
progress. I am pretty sure that some of my runs have gone over 30 catches
but my average run is only about 8 catches. There doesn't seem to be one
single thing that goes wrong every time or one single throw that is off
every time, except that the balls always go out of reach. Sometimes the
balls go to the right, sometimes to the left, sometimes in front. A ball
always ends up out of reach, and I try to reach for it but my arms aren't
long enough to reach it. So how do I get longer arms so that I can juggle
5 balls?

--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----

[brembl]

You lengthen your arms relative to the paths of the balls by juggling
faster and lower. If this causes more collisions, using smaller balls will
help. If you throw lower, your error won't be multiplied by amplitude, but
you will have less reaction time.

I don't know what to say about forward/backward throws except with
practice, it will become less and less of a problem.

[Mike Moore]

Personally, I wouldn't lower the pattern. Fairly high patterns make 5b
easier to learn (IMO) because they show you what you're doing wrong quite
easily. What you need to come to terms with is that it's your throws'
faults, not your are length's[1]!

Mike

[1] Punctuated assuming your arms are the same length =)

[Rhidders]

You could do what nearly all learners of 3 balls do...juggle against a
wall. :D

Alternatively, you could learning it on a chair, standing on a small wall
etc etc. I did that and my 5b cascade improved a fair amount :P

[markool89]

Rhidders wrote:

>
> paradox wrote:
> >
> >
> Alternatively, you could learning it on a chair, standing on a small wall
> etc etc. I did that and my 5b cascade improved a fair amount :P
>
>

Standing on a chair/wall is what i do with 6/7 balls. Isolation practice
is a great way to solidify a pattern. Anthony Gatto does it[1], so it must
work great!


[1] With 9 balls!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KxqjruQFjw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL21D147DFA7F1FCAE

[Adam Rowney]

It's not that your arms are too short, it's that your pattern is too wide.
Fix this, and you will improve a lot quicker.

[dpawson]

My pattern could still be much, much more solid, but one of the things I'm
really trying to focus on lately is my arm position. Upper arms in tight
to my body, forearms down low, elbows back. The more your arms are
swinging around, the more degrees of freedom you have and the more
unpredictable your throws are going to end up. A short, predictable arm
swing feels weird at first, but should lead to more predictable throws.

[MarkRebuck]

> [snip]

> I'm really trying to focus on lately is my arm position. Upper arms in tight
> to my body, forearms down low, elbows back.

> [snip]

For what it's worth, I think a lot of European jugglers use a
technique which is quite unlike what you are describing... lots of arm
movement and elbows neither tight nor back. There are some comments
to that effect on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLmiJghbhE .
Perhaps Kristian could comment? (I know he reads this forum)

I have no opinion, as I only just last night set my new 5 ball record
of 27 catches. I've got quite a bit to learn still :).

[Patrick P]

You don't need to get longer arms, you just have to throw the balls more
accurately :)
I had the same problem when I was learning 5 balls and I found that the
best way to practise is to do short and controlled runs. Try to do 7
throws and 7 catches 10 times in a row, then move on to 8 throws and so
on. I know it's kinda boring but it really helps a lot :)
You can also practise a high 3 ball cascade, and maybe a couple of rounds
of 552 :)
Practise much and you will get results :D

[Peter Bone]

Kristian is the exception. This is the style they teach at the circus
school he studied at and is better for Russian balls. Have a look at
Gatto's arm position.
Peter

[Jason Perry]

Hi Peter,

Being to lazy to look at videos of Kristian & Anthony right now, could you
briefly explain what you mean.
Are you suggesting that an 'elbows pinned to the sides' approach works
best or that more upper arm movement is preferable?

I ask because I've just dug out my old DX balls and am playing with seven
of them. I get great pleasure from a good run with them as opposed to
beanbags, but am wondering whether there is some technique issues that I
should be thinking about.

FYI: a nice run with the DX's is around 50 catches (whereas with beanbags
it'd be 100ish).

Would be interesting to hear any advice.

Thanks in advance.

Jason.

[PinkNigel]

Mike Moore wrote:
> What you need to come to terms with is that it's your throws'
> faults, not your are length's[1]!
>
> Mike
>
> [1] Punctuated assuming your arms are the same length =)
>

If ever anyone were asking for it....

The quality "length" is not possessed of anything, thus the apostrophe is
misplaced. "[Y]our arm's length" would punctuate for a single arm; "your
arms' length" would be correct for the footnote with which you left
yourself wide open.

Yours respectfully,
The grammar police.

[Mike Moore]

But you see, the length is possessing something: fault. Though it may
have been difficult to realize, since I did make a typo. Should have read:

not your arm length's [fault]. The fault belongs to the arm length.

Mike

[udropped1]

You may want to try some slightly heavier balls. When I was learning 5, I
felt that the heavier balls gave me a little more control over the height
and direction of my throws. I am pretty sure they also buggered up the
ligaments or something in my elbows - so be wary...

[paradox]

I'm still having a lot of trouble learning to juggle 5 balls. I think I'm
just inherently inaccurate when it comes to throwing balls. For example, I
can hold a single ball in one hand and throw it to the other hand at the
height of 5 ball juggling and the arc of the ball will always be
different, I can't throw it with the same arc every time: sometimes I will
throw the ball to far forward, sometimes it will be too far backward,
sometimes too far to the left which causes me to sometimes have to reach
for the ball in order to catch it. So if this is how bad my accuracy is
with just a single ball when all of my focus is on that one ball, I can
understand why my accuracy is so bad when juggling 5 balls.

So due to my inherent inaccuracy I think my only hope of ever learning 5
balls is to get good at recovering from bad throws, which is what I am
trying to do. Short and controlled runs don't work for me because my runs
are never controlled no matter how short they are, at least not
consistently. Right from the first throws I often find myself needing to
recover from bad throws.

By the way, my best run is now 76 catches but my average is still as
horrible as ever: like 5 catches or something.

[pjgpv]

I'm also still learning 5 and am not so good. I've got slightly different
problems to you, but I have encountered your issues.
When people recommend the various 3&4b exercises, they do it because it's
good practice which leads to muscle memory. From what you've said, you
just need to work on that more.
Learning 5 seems to be a real test of your juggling ability, at least for
me, so just keep going with it!

[Patrick P]

You're not inherently inaccurate, it's just the fact that 5 balls is very,
very, very hard to learn :D
Just keep practicing a lot and you will eventually learn it :D
How solid are your 3 and 4 ball pattern?

[paradox]

3 balls is completely solid; I can juggle 3 basically indefinitely. 4
balls I can juggle for a minute maybe at least. When I juggle 4 balls I am
doing a lot of correcting of bad throws, but I've gotten very good at it.
Sometimes my hands will get to far apart or too close together and I can
correct it without dropping, sometimes the rhythm of tosses of the left
hand and right hands will become uneven and I can also correct that by
adjusting the height of one throw of one hand. Usually when I do
eventually drop it is because a ball simply fumbled out of my hand and not
because the pattern got so much out of control that I couldn't fix it.

It's funny because I don't remember having to really practice 4 balls too
much before I could do it, it almost came naturally after being able to
juggle 3 balls and 2 in one hand. One day I thought, I can I can juggle 2
balls in the right hand and 2 in the left hand, let's try both at the same
time, and I wasn't too bad at it. So far I find learning 5 balls hundreds
of times harder than both 3 and 4.

[Scott Seltzer]

paradox wrote:
> 3 balls is completely solid; I can juggle 3 basically indefinitely. 4
> balls I can juggle for a minute maybe at least. When I juggle 4 balls I am
> doing a lot of correcting of bad throws, but I've gotten very good at it.
> Sometimes my hands will get to far apart or too close together and I can
> correct it without dropping, sometimes the rhythm of tosses of the left
> hand and right hands will become uneven and I can also correct that by
> adjusting the height of one throw of one hand. Usually when I do
> eventually drop it is because a ball simply fumbled out of my hand and not
> because the pattern got so much out of control that I couldn't fix it.

Sounds like you should work on 4 more. Not only should you get the
fountain so it required less corrections, but you should work on some
tricks. Basic ones for stability include switching between sync and async,
exaggerating the scoop so you can even have both circles overlapping like
a venn diagram, playing with heights high and low, changing between circle
and column patterns, wimpy, half-shower (in both directions). You can also
try basic tricks like under the leg, shoulder throws, 534, multiplexes,
etc.

> It's funny because I don't remember having to really practice 4 balls too
> much before I could do it, it almost came naturally after being able to
> juggle 3 balls and 2 in one hand. One day I thought, I can I can juggle 2
> balls in the right hand and 2 in the left hand, let's try both at the same
> time, and I wasn't too bad at it. So far I find learning 5 balls hundreds
> of times harder than both 3 and 4.

Sounds about right.

-Scott

[Patrick P]

Well, 5 balls is a lot harder than 4 balls, but I think you should be more
solid with 4 balls before going on to five balls :)
make about 300 catches or so with 4 balls (without moving your fett) then
you know for sure that you're ready for 5 balls :D
And remember, practice, pracitce, practice, 5 balls are very, very hard to
learn :)

[paradox]

Ok, I did 200 catches just now without moving my feet. I think I am
capable of 300 and can get it with some more attempts, I'll try again
later. But is it really necessary to be awesome at juggling 4 balls before
you move to 5? The patterns are completely different and I think I'm well
beyond the 4 ball skill level that other sources recommend (I usually hear
that anything from 50 to 100 catches is good enough).

[pompboy]

5 just takes time and dedication.

I had 4 balls down pretty solid, could probably do 100+ catches of async
fountain before I started on 5. It took me about 9 months to get to the
point where I could consistently get 20-25 catches of 5. That was with an
average of about 20-30 minutes practice a day during that time.

For me I felt that doing a lot of the 3 and 4 ball exercises not only
helped with 5 balls, but, it made my 3 and 4 ball patterns better.

Hang in there...it is time well spent!!

cheers - Warren

[Mike Moore]

Being able to do different patterns with 4b immensely helps with 5b. And
I wouldn't call being able to do 300 catches of the base pattern being
awesome with 4b =P

> The patterns are completely different and I think I'm well
> beyond the 4 ball skill level that other sources recommend (I usually hear
> that anything from 50 to 100 catches is good enough).
>

I've never heard estimates that low! It may just be the focus of numbers
these days, but I always thought you should be getting 50+ catches of
stuff like 552 and 55550 before trying 5b. 50 catches of the base pattern
seems really low to me.

Mike

[paradox]

Right now my biggest problem is forgetting how to juggle. Normally when I
start a practice session I'll suck at first but quickly reach a level
where my average number of catches is 10 to 20. Then sometimes by the end
of the practice session (after maybe 20 minutes or so) I'll "remember" how
to juggle at which point almost all of my runs will be over 20 catches and
I'll be frequently getting runs of 50+ catches. However, I don't always
reach this point in every practice session. I just finished a practice
session in which I didn't once remember how to juggle and my best run for
the entire session was something like 30 catches.

My record for most catches is now 141 catches and was done during a short
period of time at the end of a practice session in which I knew how to
juggle.

[AnloweLasrans]

I wouldn't worry about this; It sounds to me as if you're following a very
normal pattern of improvement. I've been practising 5 balls for 6 or 7
months. My best is 55 catches and my average is only about 15-20 when I've
warmed up. It's a very long road but it's the journey which makes it
worthwhile. If you can learn to enjoy the practice of 5 balls, then it
doesn't matter how long it takes. A lot of people have already talked
about learning helpful 3 and 4 ball patterns. My favourites are the 3 ball
snake (50505 ?), 4 ball (53) half shower [both hands] and 4 ball tennis
(44453).

I find it's very helpful to concentrate on seeing the snake pattern in the
5 ball cascade; when you can do a great snake, I find it's a great way to
keep the cascade pattern even and accurate.

In short, I'd snake it out for a while. If you can't do the snake
accurately, it's very unlikely you could weave two more balls into the
pattern to get the 5 ball cascade. Just my opinion, but it's been working
for me; I hope it helps. :)

(P.S. Of course, the 4 ball snake is the next logical step; it's only a
tiny bit harder than the 3 ball one. I haven't practised 55550 much at
all. Does anyone have any opinions on the 5 ball cascade gap pattern? Is
it a big help? Thanks guys!)

[paradox]

I guess I'll post an update. I no longer have problems with forgetting how
to juggle. I more or less can juggle 5 balls at my full capability
(although my full capability is still not that great) without any warm up
at all. In fact, it isn't uncommon for my best run of a practice session
to be my very first run, which is probably because my arms are rested and
not tired at all on the first run. My practice sessions are very short
these days, usually 5 minutes, which is due to the fact that I no longer
need warm up time.

At this point I would say my average run is about 30 catches and my catch
record is now 156 catches. It's still pretty rare for me to get a run of
over 100 catches. Most of my drops these days are due to ball fumbling,
when the ball makes contact with my hand but I drop it. I guess the only
way to improve that is to get a cleaner pattern so that the balls are
easier to catch. My pattern is not very clean with lots of reaching for
balls and asynchronization between right and left hands (sometimes I'm
throwing balls from the right and left hand at almost the same time).

[Mats1]

AnloweLasrans wrote:
>
>My favourites are the 3 ball
> snake (50505 ?), 4 ball (53) half shower [both hands] and 4 ball tennis
> (44453).
>

People always say about doing patterns with lower number that are somehow
similar to the bigger number pattern. I would strongly suggest not doing
this. The fastest way to improve at 5 is to just do 5. The best way to
increase improvement is to increase practice time.

Putting an extra ball in changes everything. The pattern gets higher and
faster and that is what your mind needs to get used to.

[Varkor]

With regular patterns like cascades or fountains, I'd agree - I've
always found it easier just to keep going at it. With other siteswaps
though (like (6x,4)* and 645), I feel it does help to break it down.

[Brook Roberts]

> Ok, I did 200 catches just now without moving my feet. I think I am
> capable of 300 and can get it with some more attempts, I'll try again
> later. But is it really necessary to be awesome at juggling 4 balls before
> you move to 5? The patterns are completely different and I think I'm well
> beyond the 4 ball skill level that other sources recommend (I usually hear
> that anything from 50 to 100 catches is good enough).
>

It's definitely not necessary to have a round of solid 4 ball tricks
before learning five, but then you can't complain too much about finding
it harder :P Your records progress in that time seems perfectly
reasonable - the jump from 4 to 5 is much much bigger than the jump from 3
to 4.

I would strongly recommend practising 552, then 55550 each time before you
start trying to practice 5. 552 is especially helpful as it's
significantly easier, so you can focus on nice throws.

3 ball shower both ways can help too.

[Danny Colyer]

On 04/02/2012 11:54, Mats1 wrote:
> People always say about doing patterns with lower number that are somehow
> similar to the bigger number pattern. I would strongly suggest not doing
> this. The fastest way to improve at 5 is to just do 5.

YMMV. I used to think that. Several years later I decided to stop
working on 5 for a while and work instead on 55500, 50505 and 51. Doing
that significantly improved both my 5 ball pattern (when I was ready to
return to it) and my enjoyment of practising 5.

> The best way to
> increase improvement is to increase practice time.

Quite possibly. One might not want to increase the time spent juggling
(or might have other commitments that prevent it).

> Putting an extra ball in changes everything. The pattern gets higher and
> faster and that is what your mind needs to get used to.

Not if you're doing those pre-5 patterns correctly to begin with.

--
Danny Colyer <http://www.redpedals.co.uk>
"I'm riding a unicycle with my pants down. This should be every boy's
dream." - Bartholomew J Simpson

[Michael Falkov]

Well, it's been a few months. Maybe your arms have grown long enough to
allow for the progress you've experienced. I'd bet that if you keep
working on 5 balls while your arms grow, that the growth of both will be
correlated...happens all the time...

Congrats'n'stuff. :)

[Robin]

Mats1 wrote:
> The best way to increase improvement is to increase practice time.

Or increase the efficiency of the time you spend practicing...

Robin
Quality over quantity.

[Rootberry]

paradox wrote:
>
> I'm trying to learn to juggle 5 balls. I have made some pretty good
> progress. I am pretty sure that some of my runs have gone over 30 catches
> but my average run is only about 8 catches. There doesn't seem to be one
> single thing that goes wrong every time or one single throw that is off
> every time, except that the balls always go out of reach. Sometimes the
> balls go to the right, sometimes to the left, sometimes in front. A ball
> always ends up out of reach, and I try to reach for it but my arms aren't
> long enough to reach it. So how do I get longer arms so that I can juggle
> 5 balls?
>

Video would help a lot but. Long arms has nothing to do with it, a t-rex
could juggle 5 balls if they threw the balls where they wanted them to go
and they weren't extinct. But I doubt they'd have the patience for it, I
digress!

So accuracy is your problem (not that there's ever just one problem with a
pattern that doesn't work). But you need to throw the balls where you
want them to go. Not out in front of you where you can't reach them.
Keeping your arms bent will not only help you do this but will require
much less effort than juggling all over the place.

I could go on and on but work on those for now and know that 5 takes time
to perfect.

Root

[Rhidders]

Michael Falkov wrote:
>
>
> Well, it's been a few months. Maybe your arms have grown long enough to
> allow for the progress you've experienced. I'd bet that if you keep
> working on 5 balls while your arms grow, that the growth of both will be
> correlated...happens all the time...
>
> Congrats'n'stuff. :)
>

Loving the thought that jugglers can go under pseudo Lamarck evolution.
Juggle lots, grow your arms, then your kids will have longer arms and be
awesome jugglers :D

Perhaps this explains why Bill Berry is so long armed :P

Rhydian

[Michael Falkov]

Hehe, yeah, that is an interesting idea, as is the more general question
regarding the heritability of acquired physiological characteristics.

I was just thinking that people asking internet discussion groups how to
grow their arms are likely to have arms that are still growing. I was also
noting that the correlation of arm growth and 5 ball juggling ability
among jugglers is not uncommon - in fact I've observed it myself in a
number of people.

I wonder how the Gatto & Pecel offspring will juggle, if they get into it
- they certainly have nurture potential on their side. I guess many of us
would be curious. Maybe our kids would be even more curious. ^_-

I also wonder if Gatto has any unusual genetic advantage for juggling, and
if so, what it is.

..and I wonder why I wonder why...I wonder why I wonder...I wonder WHY I
wonder why I wonder why I wonder. Resolved curiosity or not, I'll be Feyn,
man.

[Mats1]

Robin wrote:
>
> Mats1 wrote:
> > The best way to increase improvement is to increase practice time.
>
> Or increase the efficiency of the time you spend practicing...
>
> Robin
> Quality over quantity.
>
>

I would like to see the juggler who practices 2 hours every day without
fail who is worse than a juggler who does half an hour here and there of
excellent practice.

[Rhidders]

Michael Falkov wrote:
>
>
> Hehe, yeah, that is an interesting idea, as is the more general question
> regarding the heritability of acquired physiological characteristics.
>
> I was just thinking that people asking internet discussion groups how to
> grow their arms are likely to have arms that are still growing. I was also
> noting that the correlation of arm growth and 5 ball juggling ability
> among jugglers is not uncommon - in fact I've observed it myself in a
> number of people.
>

Perhaps thats correct but I've not actually measured my arms and compare
them to the length of a non-juggler or someone who doesn't juggle 5 balls.
Maybe I should investigate at juggling club next week :D

> I wonder how the Gatto & Pecel offspring will juggle, if they get into it
> - they certainly have nurture potential on their side. I guess many of us
> would be curious. Maybe our kids would be even more curious. ^_-
>
> I also wonder if Gatto has any unusual genetic advantage for juggling, and
> if so, what it is.
>

Now thats worth being curious about. Consider the Pecel kids, dad is a
juggler and mum does hula-hoop (or is that Gatto's, I cant remember).
Fantastic combination in my opinion. If the children do take up juggling
and hula hooping, is there a possibility of juggling 5+ balls while on 1
leg and spinning a hula hoop on the other leg? Hmmmmm *ponders*

Regarding the genetics, perhaps there is an advantage for motor skills and
co-ordination if such attributes are learnt etc in previous generation but
I am doubtful as its there as an in-built genetic trait. Would be worth
investigating I guess. It may even put what I learnt at university to
use...HELLO PhD!!

Rhydian "A-T G-C unless it's mRNA when it's A-U" Mann

[SuchaMuggle]

markool89 wrote:
>
>
> Isolation practice
> is a great way to solidify a pattern. Anthony Gatto does it[1], so it must
> work great!
>
>
>

Anthony is the greatest, but I think his "isolation practice" is just to
show the world his great control of throwing, and to show that he could,
if he wanted, kick butt in the isolation competitions that are being held
at certain juggling events.

Also, I want to rename this whole "isolation" thing. It is not correct use
of English. "Restricted movement practice," or "Fixed stance," or
"pedestal stand" or something would be more accurate.

Isolation would indicate that the juggler is solitary, alone, cut off from
other means of help, support, criticism, etc.. but that's redundant anyway
for people who practice in lonely racquetball courts or solitary backyards.

I guess a great majority of my lifetime juggling practice has been a bit
TOO isolated, in the true sense of the word.

Oh! But here is a weird one..
Today I was having trouble with 7 balls (what day am I NOT having that
trouble??) and I decided to stand on the 3rd step of some concrete stairs.
Suddenly, unable to step forward or back, I had some really nice long runs
of 7 cascade. But then when I went back to the driveway, I went back to
walking around too much and throwing too wide.

??

John Nations

[Varkor]

"Isolation" makes sense and sounds fairly elegant compared to your
suggestions. It's true that there could be a more precise way of
phrasing it, but it makes enough sense as it is.

[Robin]

Mats1 wrote:
>
> Robin wrote:
> >
> > Mats1 wrote:
> > > The best way to increase improvement is to increase practice time.
> >
> > Or increase the efficiency of the time you spend practicing...
> >
> > Robin
> > Quality over quantity.
> >
> >
>
> I would like to see the juggler who practices 2 hours every day without
> fail who is worse than a juggler who does half an hour here and there of
> excellent practice.
>

Me too, but that's not what I said. I'd also like to see the juggler who
messed around juggling for 2 hours a day with no real structure, focus or
purpose who is better than the juggler who does 1 hour a day of tight,
structured and efficient practice (look at Gatto, you can bet every second
of his practice schedule is planned and efficient). The distinction I was
trying to make is that there's a difference between 'juggling' and
'practicing' and that increasing the time you spend isn't the only way to
get better. If you took two beginner jugglers of equal skill and got them
both to juggle two hours a day for a couple of years, one doing two hours
of efficient, properly structured training and the other doing two hours
of just juggling and messing about with juggling, guess which one is going
to progress faster? Of course in reality it's important to do both and I
wasn't in any way trying to imply that doing more practice is a bad thing,
obviously it isn't. I was just trying to offer up another way of thinking
about it.

In this case though, having read the rest of the thread, I'd agree that if
he's only practicing for 5 minutes here and there then he probably isn't
going to get very far very fast ;o)

Robin

[Rhidders]

I agree with you John about the term for the exercise. I occasionally
carry out my 5b and 6b as "restricted movement" while in "isolation".

Your practice example of changing from the driveway to a step supports
what I was saying though. Juggling on a chair or any elevated surface
forces your brain to throw more accurately.

From my point of view, stepping up and then down from said elevated
surface due to rubbish throws is far more frustrating than just bending
over and picking up repeatedly.

Rhydian "getting thighs of steel from juggling step aerobics :P " Mann

[Michael Falkov]

Rhidders wrote:
>
> Michael Falkov wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hehe, yeah, that is an interesting idea, as is the more general question
> > regarding the heritability of acquired physiological characteristics.
> >
> > I was just thinking that people asking internet discussion groups how to
> > grow their arms are likely to have arms that are still growing. I was also
> > noting that the correlation of arm growth and 5 ball juggling ability
> > among jugglers is not uncommon - in fact I've observed it myself in a
> > number of people.
> >
>
> Perhaps thats correct but I've not actually measured my arms and compare
> them to the length of a non-juggler or someone who doesn't juggle 5 balls.
> Maybe I should investigate at juggling club next week :D
>

One notable exemplar I've personally witnessed is Noah Malone. By the
second occasion that I saw him in person, his 5 ball juggling was much
better than the first and his arms were longer.

..or take Ty Tojo's early videos showing 5 ball juggling and compare them
to his latter 5 ball juggling videos - correlated increase in 5 ball
juggling skill and arm length.

[1]

> > I wonder how the Gatto & Pecel offspring will juggle, if they get into it
> > - they certainly have nurture potential on their side. I guess many of us
> > would be curious. Maybe our kids would be even more curious. ^_-
> >
> > I also wonder if Gatto has any unusual genetic advantage for juggling, and
> > if so, what it is.
> >
>
> Now thats worth being curious about. Consider the Pecel kids, dad is a
> juggler and mum does hula-hoop (or is that Gatto's, I cant remember).
> Fantastic combination in my opinion. If the children do take up juggling
> and hula hooping, is there a possibility of juggling 5+ balls while on 1
> leg and spinning a hula hoop on the other leg? Hmmmmm *ponders*
>
> Regarding the genetics, perhaps there is an advantage for motor skills and
> co-ordination if such attributes are learnt etc in previous generation but
> I am doubtful as its there as an in-built genetic trait. Would be worth
> investigating I guess. It may even put what I learnt at university to
> use...HELLO PhD!!
>
> Rhydian "A-T G-C unless it's mRNA when it's A-U" Mann
>
>

Danielle Gatto is a hooper, but I'd expect just about anyone with a solid
5 ball cascade and basic balance and coordination abilities to be able to
stand on one leg with the other spinning a hoop while juggling 5 balls.
hehe

Pecel has twins - just imagine the potential! With a talented dad and each
other to compete/train with, something impressive is likely to come from
those two.

As for Gabe Gatto, he certainly has an ideal role model and coach for
possibly becoming one of the best, if not the best ever at a handful of
basic juggling patterns with 7-9 objects, with or without a ball bouncing
on his head. Assuming he followed in his fathers footsteps, I'd guess that
he'd arrive at his father's level sooner than the latter and then surpass
him (as you do) by going on to higher numbers as well. I also imagine that
he would be likely to learn siteswaps, if not many shape distortions,
since it would probably be weird for someone in his age group with the
skill level we could all imagine him attaining, by the time he did, to be
theoretically illiterate. I think his dad's bias is unfortunate for...
everyone concerned - he could probably quickly learn to do things that we
will likely have to wait ~2-3 more years to see (though who knows...the
rate of juggling progress seems to be accelerating and novel stimuli may
further catalyze it) and in-so-doing, he might revitalize his interest in
juggling by finding a practically unlimited realm that contains so much
unfamiliar depth and variety within this skill domain of which many would
say he has long been The master of.

What I'm wondering about Gatto and his genetics is whether they contribute
in some highly unusual way to his supreme basic foundation, or whether
those abilities developed due to the methodologically effective and highly
attentive personal training of Nick Gatto from a very young age and
pursuing relatively ambitious and narrowly focused goals.

Michael Falkov - Unreasonably long sentencer.

[1] No causation is implied from practice to observable phenotypic
development. [2]

[2] To infer such causation and then discover the intended meaning's truth
is sort of like processing a paradox, which is OPically appropos. Fun!

// Textual irony is often lossy.

[Rhidders]

Michael Falkov wrote:
>
> Rhidders wrote:
> >
> > Michael Falkov wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hehe, yeah, that is an interesting idea, as is the more general question
> > > regarding the heritability of acquired physiological characteristics.
> > >
> > > I was just thinking that people asking internet discussion groups how to
> > > grow their arms are likely to have arms that are still growing. I was
also
> > > noting that the correlation of arm growth and 5 ball juggling ability
> > > among jugglers is not uncommon - in fact I've observed it myself in a
> > > number of people.
> > >
> >
> > Perhaps thats correct but I've not actually measured my arms and compare
> > them to the length of a non-juggler or someone who doesn't juggle 5 balls.
> > Maybe I should investigate at juggling club next week :D
> >
>
> One notable exemplar I've personally witnessed is Noah Malone. By the
> second occasion that I saw him in person, his 5 ball juggling was much
> better than the first and his arms were longer.
>
> ..or take Ty Tojo's early videos showing 5 ball juggling and compare them
> to his latter 5 ball juggling videos - correlated increase in 5 ball
> juggling skill and arm length.
>
> [1]
>

As you mentioned in your footnote, you can't compare growth of arms in a
youngster such as Noah or Ty and you obviously know that if there was a
scientific investigation into this then the evidence wouldnt stand. You
would have compare arm growth in jugglers or learner jugglers of an age
where they have biologically stopped growing, for example 18+ year olds
because as developmental biologists say that males stop growing at 25, if
my memory serves me correctly.

Regarding Anthony Gatto and his son...I think if Gabe carrys on the
fathers profession, your thoughts are spot on from my point of view. It
has to be down to the training from Nick and if Anthony trains Gabe, I
doubt the skill training and practice structure will change. Consider
Anthony coaching fellow Cirque du Soleil performer Natasha Patterson, a
contortionist "by trade" but with Anthony's guidance she got to 6 ball
fountain and other stuff just from a few hours contact time with her coach
AND fit it all in around her performance and practice of contortion.

On the Pecel twins, the possibilities are ridiculous! Imagine if they were
performing together! I cant seem to think of any twins that perform
juggling. The closest I've seen are siblings such as Vova and Olga! Now
consider if Ivan was as good at passing as those two, then factor in how
he knows to train (even if it stems from some sessions with Mr Garfield,
if I'm correct, doubtful though) his twins would be in one word...EPIC!!

Rhydian "occasional rammbling in posts never hurts" Mann

[Scott Seltzer]

Rhidders wrote:
> On the Pecel twins, the possibilities are ridiculous! Imagine if they were
> performing together! I cant seem to think of any twins that perform
> juggling. The closest I've seen are siblings such as Vova and Olga! Now

A couple significant sets of juggling twins you should know about:
* Jake and Marty LaSalle
* Nick and Alex Karvounis

Also
* Luke and Nathan Burrage
(though they're not performing together).

-Scott

[Rhidders]

Thanks Scott!!

I remember the LaSalle boys now :D Anyways I thought Nathan was more of
the film maker than a juggler these days :P