Optimal Training Methodology
jamesters
minutes, at that point there's a saturation effect and you'll gain little
else from continued training of that skill. Based on that theory, in a 2
hour session, you'd likely want to train between 4-6 different juggling
patterns, right?
I want to understand even further in depth about optimal juggling
training. Looking at a bodybuilder's weight training routine, he might do
something like focus on back and core one day, upper body the next, lower
body the next, and repeat that for thur, fri, and sat. Now a juggler's not
worrying about his muscles recuperating so much as his motor/neural
system, right? But do you think a similar routine might benefit jugglers?
I'll give some examples of different training methods on a week basis,
limiting it to just 4 patterns so things don't get too confusing.
Juggler 1:
Mon: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Tue: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Wed: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Thur: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Fri: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Sat: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Sun: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Juggler 2:
Mon: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Tue: 5 ball reverse cascade, 5 ball shower, 6 ball sync, 6 ball async
Wed: head balance 3 club tricks, head balance 4 club async, head bounce 3
club cascade, blind behind the back
Thur: 5 club cascade, 7 ball cascade, body throws, reverse body throws
Fri: 5 ball reverse cascade, 5 ball shower, 6 ball sync, 6 ball async
Sat: head balance 3 club tricks, head balance 4 club async, head bounce 3
club cascade, blind behind the back
Sun: various trick combos
Do you understand now? Juggler 1 does the same thing everyday, juggler 2
does the same thing as juggler one but only twice a week, he also does 2
other sessions twice a week, and a more freestyle session on Sunday. Is
Juggler 1 flawed for not giving his tricks a rest every once in awhile,
perhaps burning himself out? Or, is Juggler 2 flawed because maybe high
level juggling tricks take more frequent practice to get good at? Or do
they both have pros and cons? Also, do you think there's an exception to
the 20-30 minute saturation effect for more difficult tricks like body
throws?
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Boppo
wrote:
I don't think there's a single best way. There are clear differences
between people. For example, juggling is partly mental, and there are
both differences from one person to the next both in innate
intelligence (IQ) and also in learning styles (visual learners,
auditory learners, kinesthetic learners). There is no reason to think
that the physical aptitudes won't also fall in different groups. What
might work spectacularly well for one person may not work well at all
for another. I also don't think that the rule "you will saturate
after 20-30 mins" applies to all people - although that range might be
typical or average, I think some will have much longer, and others
much shorter, saturation times. In short, I strongly believe YMMV.
There is also a philosophical question: Suppose, hypothetically, that
there were one optimum training program for a given person. Suppose,
also hypothetically, that it wasn't any fun. Suppose the person got
an immense amount of enjoyment, and a certain sub-optimal amount of
improvement, practicing wrong, but was bored senseless practicing
optimally.
The question is: What should that person do?
-boppo
isaac
wrote:
> I was told that you can only train a particular skill for about 20-30
> minutes, at that point there's a saturation effect and you'll gain little
> else from continued training of that skill. Based on that theory, in a 2
> hour session, you'd likely want to train between 4-6 different juggling
> patterns, right?
>
> I want to understand even further in depth about optimal juggling
> training. Looking at a bodybuilder's weight training routine, he might do
> something like focus on back and core one day, upper body the next, lower
> body the next, and repeat that for thur, fri, and sat. Now a juggler's not
> worrying about his muscles recuperating so much as his motor/neural
> system, right? But do you think a similar routine might benefit jugglers?
>
I'm slowly coming to the realization that less is more; so long as you
practice consistently. I believe Pozdnyakov (the juggling instructor
at the Kiev circus school) advocates practicing a single trick for no
more than 5 minutes per day. In addition, I believe that Nick Gatto
would have Anthony work on a particular trick for less than 3 minutes
per day (http://www.juggling.org/help/essays/gatto.html).
From my recent experience, this kind of practice methodology works
very well if applied with discipline. I find that if I work on
something for 20+ minutes, I lose focus and am just mindlessly banging
my head against a pattern. When I spend less time, I feel that I am
much more focused.
As to your bodybuilder example, I don't feel like they are the best
type of athletes to look towards. Body building, as far as my limited
knowledge goes, isn't focused on nearly as much coordination as an
activity like juggling. I think that more interesting activities to
look towards would be handbalancing, dance, or gymnastics.
Rhidders
>
>
> As to your bodybuilder example, I don't feel like they are the best
> type of athletes to look towards. Body building, as far as my limited
> knowledge goes, isn't focused on nearly as much coordination as an
> activity like juggling. I think that more interesting activities to
> look towards would be handbalancing, dance, or gymnastics.
>
>
increasing difficulty. Such as jugglers repeat a pattern until they get
the pattern correct. Bodybuilders repeat an exercise to get the right
muscle structure or size for them.
The bottom line is with any athlete, juggler, bodybuilder, etc is that the
training needs to be mixed up. Without the variety, training becomes
unstimulating and no matter if all muscle groups are used, the individual
will not feel the benefit due to pyschological lows.
Regarding the duration of training, I think it depends on the individual
mental approach. Some people, no matter what their sport (not including
bodybuilding in this notion), will train on a specific move etc until it
is correct or until they become to tired. In the case of juggling due to
the complexity of learning movements and adjusting them, I think the
shorter amount of time practicing move you already can do is better, take
a bit longer when learning moves.
Personal opinions here people, comes from what I learnt from current
sports I do aswell as being a novice juggler.
Great debate topic here people :D
Rhydian
Jacob:Sacher
I think the best way to learn something is to practice it for long periods
of time until it is tattoed into your brain, and muscles.
Imagine that you are trying to learn a new phone number,
the way I would go about learning it would be just to repeat it.
I would repeat it as many times as it would take, until I could remeber
it.
The same is with juggling,if I want to learn a new trick i practice
it,practice it,and practice it some more.
When I was learning ss:645 I tried many things for about 4 months.
finally I went to the park,2 hours later I was a bit better.
The next day i went to the park again 2 hours later i was a lot better.
After about 3 or for days doing this I had made more proggress than in all
the other 4 months.
My practice log shows this
http://www.jugglingdb.com/records/member.php?user=8888&trick=112
You give the example of bodybuilders.
I have no idea about anything about that sport so I am unqualified to
reply.
Though I can give an example of table tennis.
Table tennis is the exact opposite of what you mentioned, it was not to
uncomon,for me to go to a one hour traning session and all we would
practicewas one type of shot. by the end of the lesson I was a much better
player.
I enjoy hearing more of your thoughts and opinions,
have fun
J:S
Vince
good place for more discussion. I don't know if anyone else cares to dig
up old threads on it because I likely won't but!
I have a fairly regular practice set up. I generally get in about three
straight hours a day 6 days a week in the summer and from 3 to 6 days a
week in the winter. All of my sessions generally run the same way and I
devote about 20 minutes to each pattern I'm working on depending on how
much work I'd like to give to it. It fluctuates from time to time but for
the most part, that's the way.
I know that works for me because my mind tends to lose interest in
whatever I'm doing and I stop focusing on improving technique and begin
just running the patterns mindlessly. Then I switch patterns. However, a
good friend of mine can't mentally handle three hour practice sessions
usually and will devote only a small time per each session. She still does
pretty well.
I'm fairly sure that it's dependent on the individual persons level of
focus.
I believe it can also depend on how you practice mentally. When I first
began juggling, I didn't think about body positioning, breathing, rhythm,
or much of any of the important stuff. Now when I practice, I'm not just
mindlessly running things.
If you consistantly focus on maintaining proper body positioning and all
the like, as well as trying to analyze and fix the flaws to your patterns
(it helps to know the flaws to your patterns) rather than just throwing up
and hoping it goes straight then you're bound to improve but when you
realize that your mind is trailing off often and you can't seem to keep
thinking about all those things then it's time to move on to the next
pattern.
The average time it takes for that to occur for you is what you should be
setting your practice sessions to.
This I believe makes it rather hard to pin point an optimal time for
jugglers to practice. I guess you could find an average for most people
but I'd say the difference from person to person would be too high
considering the scale of time your using as an example. Different people
have different levels of focus. Mind you, I can't say that it's not
possible for an individual to learn more focus, in turn potentially
changing that but that's something entirely new. My level of focus hasn't
really changed that much over the years that I've been juggling but maybe
it's different for others.
Hope this helps
jamesters
>
> I'm slowly coming to the realization that less is more; so long as you
> practice consistently. I believe Pozdnyakov (the juggling instructor
> at the Kiev circus school) advocates practicing a single trick for no
> more than 5 minutes per day. In addition, I believe that Nick Gatto
> would have Anthony work on a particular trick for less than 3 minutes
> per day (http://www.juggling.org/help/essays/gatto.html).
>
> From my recent experience, this kind of practice methodology works
> very well if applied with discipline. I find that if I work on
> something for 20+ minutes, I lose focus and am just mindlessly banging
> my head against a pattern. When I spend less time, I feel that I am
> much more focused.
>
> As to your bodybuilder example, I don't feel like they are the best
> type of athletes to look towards. Body building, as far as my limited
> knowledge goes, isn't focused on nearly as much coordination as an
> activity like juggling. I think that more interesting activities to
> look towards would be handbalancing, dance, or gymnastics.
>
>
3 minutes? That's hard to imagine training a pattern for only 3 minutes
and benefiting. Sometimes things are misinterpreted or taken out of
context. It could be something like training the right side of a pattern
for 3 minutes, then the left for 3, then alternating for 3, then the whole
pattern for 3, which comes to 12 and seems more realistic. Even 12 seems
rather short for some patterns though. For example, I feel like I have to
train body throws a rather long time to get any benefit. I felt stuck on
them for so long, then when I started increasing the amount of time I
spent practicing them (from 20 minutes to 45 minutes) that's when I
finally started noticing improvements and qualified them. Drastically
increasing the time spent felt necessary for me in that case. Because I
can't just started throwing body throws, I have to start at least with 2
catches for a few minutes, then I work on flashes for a few minutes, then
4, etcetera.
Hand balancing might be a better comparison to juggling. I also do hand
balancing, I'm actually a pretty elite level hand balancer, I can stand on
one hand better than most people can stand on one foot haha. I often spend
up to an hour or more a day specifically on hand stand type skills.
However, my time spent balancing myself in any specific type of position
is probably only a few minutes. Imagine doing a one handed stand for 10
seconds, and you do 12 sets, that only comes to about 2 minutes. That many
sets can be exhausting and you're likely unable to have the strength to
handle much more after that. 2 minutes might seem comparable to what was
said about Anthony Gatto juggling. However, it generally takes years to
develop a good one handed stand, and perhaps that's part of the reason,
because they're exhausting and you can only handle such a limited time on
them. If it were possible to spend 20-30 minutes practicing one handed
holds without fatigue, perhaps they could develop much faster.
I don't really know how comparable hand stands are to juggling though.
They both might take coordination, but I think a different type of
coordination. So I'm left not knowing what to think.
Guy G
>
> Hello
>
> I think the best way to learn something is to practice it for long periods
> of time until it is tattoed into your brain, and muscles.
>
> Imagine that you are trying to learn a new phone number,
> the way I would go about learning it would be just to repeat it.
> I would repeat it as many times as it would take, until I could remeber
> it.
Whilst that would work, it would be a very slow method for learning a new
phone number. Breaking it down into sub-sequences, and mapping each
sub-sequence to an image/weird concept is how I'd do it. Then a sequence
of images/concepts which represent the number in a more visual way can be
memorised extremely quickly. How you do that mapping is another matter
though.
Obviously this doesn't directly apply to juggling tricks, but could be
considered analogous to breaking down a trick into constituent parts and
learning them first.
Guy
thatguy
That seems incredibly boring. I just practice something until I get it
once or become bored. Whichever comes second. Then I do the same thing
next practice session.
My response to your analogy with a phone number is: Why bother? It's
boring. My phone can do that. All I have to remember is their name which
I can then type into my phone to retrieve that hard to remember number.
Eventually, after seeing their number so often associated with their name
I will know their phone number by heart even though I made no real effort
to do so.
That is how juggling tricks are for me. The only ones I have solid are
the ones that I have done once a practice session for many practice
sessions.
Or ones that are easy (like 645). The rest are nowhere close to solid but
it is fun and exciting to pull them off.
Thank you,
thatguy
Little Paul
>
> Whilst that would work, it would be a very slow method for learning a new
> phone number. Breaking it down into sub-sequences, and mapping each
> sub-sequence to an image/weird concept is how I'd do it.
I find for phone numbers (and IP addresses for that matter) breaking it
down into sub-sequences is usually enough as I can remember strings of
3-5 numbers pretty easily. Linking those substings together, I
typically do based on rhythm.
I think the analogy closest to what I do is to think of the phone number
as a song, and the groups of digits as the words of that song. [1]
But then I generally learn phone numbers one at a time, and if I was
trying to memorise an entire phone book I'd probably do the image
sequence journey thing.
> Obviously this doesn't directly apply to juggling tricks, but could be
> considered analogous to breaking down a trick into constituent parts and
> learning them first.
Which is a very good way to learn tricks, and can be usefully extended
outside the bounds of an individual trick, to help to remember tricks
themselves.
Mikey has a very good hat tricks workshop, where each trick he teaches
leads to another trick. So as you're learning the tricks, you're also
learning sequences of tricks, and eventually a short routine. This
is useful as it helps you to remember all the tricks taught at the
workshop.
Again, not really directly relevant to toss juggling.
-Paul
[1] Which is fine until you start singing one phone number to the tune
of another.
--
http://paulseward.com
Guy G
>
> On 2009-12-14, Guy G <guy.gr...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > Whilst that would work, it would be a very slow method for learning a new
> > phone number. Breaking it down into sub-sequences, and mapping each
> > sub-sequence to an image/weird concept is how I'd do it.
>
> I find for phone numbers (and IP addresses for that matter) breaking it
> down into sub-sequences is usually enough as I can remember strings of
> 3-5 numbers pretty easily. Linking those substings together, I
> typically do based on rhythm.
That usually works for me too. Although last week, I completely forgot an
IP address. Try as I might, all I could get were a couple of the 3-digit
sequences, and I wasn't sure what order they were in, so I gave up (it
wasn't actually important). This morning I found I knew it perfectly.
Brain's are weird like that.
> I think the analogy closest to what I do is to think of the phone number
> as a song, and the groups of digits as the words of that song. [1]
>
> But then I generally learn phone numbers one at a time, and if I was
> trying to memorise an entire phone book I'd probably do the image
> sequence journey thing.
It's only very rarely that I even attempt to memorise phone numbers - I
still couldn't tell you my house phone number, and I've had that for about
2.5 years. Most of the ones I've learnt have been the extremely slow
trickle method, where I've looked at them once every now and again and
they've stuck.
Which also can work for learning tricks. I find that occasionally with
diabolo, I'll try something a few times and have it not work. 6 months
later, I'll try again and it's considerably better. This happened just
yesterday when I decided I'd attempt 2 diabolo mini-columns again, and
found to my great surprise that I could (sort of) do it.
> > Obviously this doesn't directly apply to juggling tricks, but could be
> > considered analogous to breaking down a trick into constituent parts and
> > learning them first.
>
> Which is a very good way to learn tricks, and can be usefully extended
> outside the bounds of an individual trick, to help to remember tricks
> themselves.
>
> Mikey has a very good hat tricks workshop, where each trick he teaches
> leads to another trick. So as you're learning the tricks, you're also
> learning sequences of tricks, and eventually a short routine. This
> is useful as it helps you to remember all the tricks taught at the
> workshop.
That's a fine idea - I always forget what things I've just learnt at
workshops. Although if I did remember it all, I'd need another excuse as
to why I hadn't learnt any of it by the next year.
> Again, not really directly relevant to toss juggling.
Irrelevance is a good thing though.
> -Paul
ArnCrn
>
> On Dec 12, 2:04�am, jamest...@hotmail.com.nospam.com (jamesters)
> wrote:
> > I was told that you can only train a particular skill for about 20-30
> > minutes, at that point there's a saturation effect and you'll gain little
> > else from continued training of that skill. Based on that theory, in a 2
> > hour session, you'd likely want to train between 4-6 different juggling
> > patterns, right?
> >
> > I want to understand even further in depth about optimal juggling
> > training. Looking at a bodybuilder's weight training routine, he might do
> > something like focus on back and core one day, upper body the next, lower
> > body the next, and repeat that for thur, fri, and sat. Now a juggler's not
> > worrying about his muscles recuperating so much as his motor/neural
> > system, right? But do you think a similar routine might benefit jugglers?
> >
>
> I'm slowly coming to the realization that less is more; so long as you
> practice consistently. I believe Pozdnyakov (the juggling instructor
> at the Kiev circus school) advocates practicing a single trick for no
> more than 5 minutes per day.
I'm currently at the Kiev Circus School right now, and I don't think I've
ever heard him talk about a
time limit for any trick. He always goes by number of repetitions based
on how good your pattern is.
For example an easy trick (something that is comfortable and near solid) I
will do between 5-10
repetitions (3-5 minutes). For something more difficult like 7 balls or
double pirouettes, I will go for
about 30-50 attempts (15-30 minutes).
I don't mind sharing my practice schedule if anyone is interested.
MichaelB
> > There is also a philosophical question: Suppose, hypothetically, that
> there were one optimum training program for a given person. Suppose,
> also hypothetically, that it wasn't any fun. Suppose the person got
> an immense amount of enjoyment, and a certain sub-optimal amount of
> improvement, practicing wrong, but was bored senseless practicing
> optimally.
>
> The question is: What should that person do?
>
> -boppo
>
>
I think the juggler should definitely do what is fun. I've been
struggling to learn 5 balls for a couple of years now and have tried many
different training programs (e.g., only 5 minutes at a time, n+1
sequences, siteswaps using 5, etc.), but I didn't really enjoy any of
them. I finally figured out that what I like to do best is just try to
run the damn pattern. So, I do that for 15 minutes twice a day. It's
fun, because every so often I hit what are to me satisfyingly long runs
(45-50 catches) and that's like winning a hand in poker. It just feels
great. And over the long haul, I've noted improvement. So, it may not be
optimal but it works to a degree and I believe I will eventually master 5
balls if I just give it enough time.
Mike
isaac
wrote:
I would be very interested in your practice schedule, the only things
I've heard about Yuri's teaching is generally second hand information.
On 7 balls, when you actually go for the pattern, do you run it on
each attempt, go for a certain number of catches, or just do your
repetitions and finish without too much thought?
Warren Hammond
This is a really fascinating thread to me. I'll throw in my two cents.
I think one thing that has to be taken into account is where someone is in
their development as a juggler. For about ten years, I was fine just
trying a trick for a few minutes each session (2-3 hour sessions). At a
point, my progress slowed considerably and I got very frustrated. I had
to drastically change my training methodology. Now (for solo technical
work) I work at most 2 tricks an hour, and have a very structured way I
practice. I found that during those first years of juggling, I was
getting satisfaction out of learning new tricks and just running tricks I
knew how to do. At the point I'm at now, what keeps me going is seeing
progress each session, and to do that I have had to focus to a much higher
degree.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had a similar experience.
-Warren
Oooh! After-thought. Another thing to mention is that I have different
methods of practicing depending on what I want to get out of a given
session.
ArnCrn
That depends whether you are working with a teacher or not, so I'll
describe both ways that I practice
my 7 balls. But first, I recommend never "doing repetitions and finish
without too much thought"
unless you already have the trick solid.
1. With the teacher
- I run the pattern (as long as I can), he tells me how to fix/improve
it, and then I run it again (as
long as I can) trying to change what he told me to. This goes until he
tells me to move on, which is
usually around 50 attempts.
-if your interested, my problems are mainly: left hand not throwing high
enough, starting the pattern
too low, and left hand throwing too wide. Yuriy is more concerned about
having a skinny pattern
inside a "corridor" than balls going too far forward or backwards.
2. alone
- decide how many throws you want that takes you about 30-50 attempts to
complete 5-10 times.
For me a good run is 35 throws, and I stop myself at 50 throws.
If I happen to have a good day and this takes me very few tries, I'll try
to do 999999900 with a clap or
half shower a couple times, and then I'll get one more good run of 7 and
move on.
ArnCrn
contact juggling as a warmup
3 ball
- 200 high throws (at 9 or above)
- 30x high flash
- 30x high flash with 3 claps (above head, behind back, in front)
- 30x snake
- 30x snake with a clap
4 ball
- 30x snake (start w/ 3 balls in one hand, 1 in the other)
- 30x snake
5ball
- 200 high throws
- 10x high flash (from right hand)
- 5x high flash w/ clap (from right hand)
- 5x high flash (from left)
- 3x high flash w/ clap (from left)
- 10x 3up 360 from the right
- 5x 3 up 360 from the left
- 15 attempts at combining two 3up 360's with no setup throws
- 15 attempts at 5ball pirouette
7ball
-as described before
3ball
- 30-50 attempts at multiple pirouettes.
and then I move on to tricks and combinations for my routine. I won't get
into detail on those.
I finish with crunches, leg lifts, dips, pull ups, pushups, rope climb,
and stretch my shoulders.
*note
- the "30x" means 15x per hand, and all of these exercises reduce in
quantity as they become easier.
- this takes about 4 hours
- it will be changed completely once my 7ball is solid.
Dreamjuggler
feldenkrais- lessons increased my way to stand, walk (and juggle) A LOT.
Don`t be foolish to think pure hammering of hours and hours can turn your
juggling in an effortless dance of hands and objects. Be very sure that
your body is relaxed and balanced out.
greetings after a long time
Reto from Switzerland
ajcou...@gmail.com
1. Learn new things with your weaker hand first, whether that’s 3 in one hand, or starting a 7 ball cascade holding 4 balls in your weaker hand.
2. Break new moves down into components and practice them in isolation before slowly putting them back together.
3. Practice starting a run with the new trick.
4. Practice going from the basic pattern into the the trick for two or three cycles and then back into the basic pattern. Repeat this over and over again. This ability to go into and out of tricks to and from a basic pattern is an essential skill if you every want to perform a juggling routine, even if it’s only in front of your family and friends.
5. You’ll be much more productive doing 30 minutes planned and focused practice every day than beating the snot out of yourself for 4 unplanned hours every third or fourth day.
6. If something is going really well and feels like it’s really in the groove then stop doing it and work on something hard that isn’t feeling good. The thing that felt good will feel good again when you practice tomorrow. Don’t spend too much time just doing what you know is already well within your ability.
7. Don't keep juggling until you drop a prop. Always limit yourself to a length of run that you are absolutely confident that you can complete cleanly. If you juggle until you drop, that means that every time you practice a run, you are also practising a mistake. Long runs are also time consuming and tiring. Time and fatigue need to be managed. If you’re fatigued, your technique will suffer. Going for a long endurance run one in a while won’t hurt, but don’t do it all the time.
8. If you have to make a save of any kind to keep the pattern going, STOP. This is not performance, this is practice. Gradually increase your run lengths, but whatever you do, don't worry about records. It’s all about what you can repeatedly do, not what you can do once in a lifetime.
9. More important than incredible endurance or extremely difficult tricks are the basics. This means simple things like the ability to do everything equally well with both your right hand and your left hand, end a run of any pattern or trick by catching ALL the props and being able to juggle patterns and tricks at a range of different heights/speeds.
10. Understand that anyone who is really good at juggling probably started between the ages of 8 and 15 and has been at it consistently for at least 10 years. It’s not about how many hours per day you practice, it’s about how many days in a row you practice. Refer again to point 5.