[wes video] What the Duck!?
wes peden
so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
please and thank you.
/wes
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
boosh
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
I tried to with this[1]:
luke
x
[1] However drop-ridden it was.
Marden117
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
I'd like to think that I have. This is the very reason why I devote my
attention to multiplexing [1]. I wouldn't say that I am creative, however,
as I have a rather clinical and mathematical approach to my juggling but I
certainly think that what I am doing is pushing the norm.
[1] a lack of interest from other jugglers in multiplexing meant that I
could create new tricks and develop my own unique style rather than being
influenced by others
rhalf
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
I like it and hope it won't meet with the same comprehension such as
http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/thread.php?id=184262&group=1&highlight=naked%2Cslave%2Cgirl
ozzer
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
W O R D
ozzer
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
> W O R D
>
I have asked myself the same question!... and because of this problem i
stopped making juggling
related films after VSNBT MNPLTN SRS... because I never got anything back
from the juggling world,
some talent are there but why should i give and make so much work into my
films when the most
common feedback from the films is, "that was nice, can't wait to se the
next one" what the fuck! this is
the one right now!... (I HAVE SEEN ONE GREAT JUGGLING FILM IN MY LIFE!!!!
AND IT IS CALLED:
TRILOBITE, that is pretty fucked up!!! ONE FILM!!! MY GOOD)
So i won't do anymore films because i want to share things in a room with
interesting people that
want to change things instead of being in the juggling community. All the
inspiration i got for my
films was from other areas, well of course there are some good people that
are brave and do new stuff
and care about things that are interesting but they are very very very
few, but the amount of people
who thinks they do are so many. And the only thing I can se after my films
from the creative bullshit
jugglers around is bad imitations of my films, that's soo depressing!...
do something new, and do it
good. Wes is the only really young interesting juggler I have seen. The
hope is almost gone.. and I
don't care about juggling anymore because of the very pooor climate.
PEOPLE ARE LOOKING BACK
INSTEAD OF? can you rec nerds spell the word?... That's why Visionbot is
closed. That's why it is
impossible to download the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS anymore. You can share them or
burn them I don't
care, because they are old. I will do new stuff!...
Cheers Wes.
Oskar Wrangö
(maker of 9-1 nordic objects and the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS)
http://oskar.wrango.com/
ozzer
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
>
>
> I tried to with this[1]:
>
> http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?
viewkey=c4c78cafadb83d2888cb&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr
>
>
>
> luke
> x
>
>
> [1] However drop-ridden it was.
>
>
>
>
PLEASE!!!!!!!!! buy yourself a new brain, oh! that's not possible! well
there is no hope for you. That was
very new to steal Olofs musik and to drop your ass of. Buy yourself a
firepoi and start to smoke weed
instead.
Hydrophidian
videos. I think that it's refreshing to see someone trying new things
and being creatively influential.
However, I have issues with this video.
1. You don't have to reinvent the wheel to be creative.
2. Who cares if people are putting out videos with all of the same
tricks in them? Any "juggling" video is going to be the same stuff,
even if it's "new" tricks. Music, locations, and camera angles aside,
you're still throwing and catching objects, which means you're still
just juggling. If you are tired of watching the same old tricks, stop
watching juggling videos.
3. What's so wrong with kids being proud of their accomplishments and
wanting to show the juggling community what they're capable of, even
if it is the same stuff that everyone else does?
I'm all about seeing "something new" but, I think that the video came
across a little too harsh. It almost seemed like you were telling
people that if they weren't putting ground breaking, new stuff in a
video that they were just wasting their time. I know that you didn't
say that but, that's what it felt like, to me. I don't put out videos
to break new ground. I don't try to shatter the mold. I'm just proud
of myself for being capable of doing some really cool stuff. No
offense but, if you're not satisfied with the quality of videos coming
out, tough shit. There's a pretty high likelyhood that they didn't
have, impressing Wes Peden in mind when they filmed it.
Whatever. I'm not a "world class" juggler so, what do I know?
-Rico
Ignacio Pacheco
subject is very interesting
im a fan of the new creative styling juggling and the new form of art
juggling,
but i think before to do that, is necesary to get a "level" of juggling,
like you Wes, you get a important level of juggling and then you get
creative and start you investigacion in art and juggling
sorry for the bad inglish
rhalf
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
> I like it and hope it won't meet with the same comprehension such as
>
http://www.jugglingdb.com/news/thread.php?id=184262&group=1&highlight=naked%2Cslave%2Cgirl
>
I'm reading this topic and watching last videos of Wes again and again.
Now the rest of threads on rec. seem to be self-ironic.
I mentioned the slavegirl thing becouse that was the first try to make
people not considering wheather juggling is an art or not, but achieving
it in a way that we can call an art.
Hope this more descent one will meet with friendly reply, becouse this
appeals to me like the only reasonable.
wes peden
>
> First and formost, I'm a fan of Wes Peden. I like his style and his
> videos. I think that it's refreshing to see someone trying new things
> and being creatively influential.
>
> However, I have issues with this video.
>
> 1. You don't have to reinvent the wheel to be creative.
> 2. Who cares if people are putting out videos with all of the same
> tricks in them? Any "juggling" video is going to be the same stuff,
> even if it's "new" tricks. Music, locations, and camera angles aside,
> you're still throwing and catching objects, which means you're still
> just juggling. If you are tired of watching the same old tricks, stop
> watching juggling videos.
I very much disagree with you on this point. have you ever seen Komei
aoki? taking a little trick when
you flip a ring from one ear to the other and making a whole act out of
it! have you seen what is going
on in japan with the junior cascade and ball lego stuff. it's completely
new forms of juggling that they
are finding! just a week ago Jay and i were doing a 3 ball research
project with 3 ball body stuff and
we were finding new tricks with under the leg, probably one of the oldest
trick ideas ever but there is
still stuff to find in it.
any new painting is still made from paint.
> 3. What's so wrong with kids being proud of their accomplishments and
> wanting to show the juggling community what they're capable of, even
> if it is the same stuff that everyone else does?
there is nothing wrong with that but very few kids are showing what they
really are "capable" of. they
are showing that they can do tricks that they have seen but i know there
are artist out there that don't
connect that part of their brain with their juggling and i am asking then
to please do it.
>
> I'm all about seeing "something new" but, I think that the video came
> across a little too harsh. It almost seemed like you were telling
> people that if they weren't putting ground breaking, new stuff in a
> video that they were just wasting their time. I know that you didn't
> say that but, that's what it felt like, to me. I don't put out videos
> to break new ground. I don't try to shatter the mold. I'm just proud
> of myself for being capable of doing some really cool stuff.
of course what you do is up to you i just wanted to give a shout out so
people would start being aware
with what they are doing.
> No
> offense but, if you're not satisfied with the quality of videos coming
> out, tough shit. There's a pretty high likelyhood that they didn't
> have, impressing Wes Peden in mind when they filmed it.
i don't want people to have impressing me in mind when making video i just
don't want people to
wake up and use everything in there juggling. i know it might have come
off a little harsh. a bucket of
cold water to the face is a little harsh too.
>
> Whatever. I'm not a "world class" juggler so, what do I know?
that was a very strange thing to say.
i thank you for thinking.
/wes
>
> -Rico
wes peden
>
> 1st im not very good in write in english, but im going to try, becouse the
> subject is very interesting
> im a fan of the new creative styling juggling and the new form of art
> juggling,
> but i think before to do that, is necesary to get a "level" of juggling,
> like you Wes, you get a important level of juggling and then you get
> creative and start you investigacion in art and juggling
>
> sorry for the bad inglish
>
i don't think so. i think it's all a matter of what you work on and that's
your choice from the start. i
have a friend named Avi in the states who the first day i saw him with
clubs wasn't working on
backcrosses or flats of under the leg he was trying to throw one so the
knob landed in his elbow pit
behind the neck so it would swing there and fall to his other hand which
was waiting for it behind the
back. (!!!!)
i mean if you want to get really good at running you can for sure make
your legs stronger by doing
other things before you start running but why not just run?
/wes
ChrisFowler
Ouch. Well, I must apologize, as I was one of the "can't wait to see the
next one" people. I really enjoyed the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS, and 9-1 Nordic
Objects remains one of my favorite DVD's to date; so, I find it sad that
you do not feel encouraged to continue making juggling-related videos
anymore. I can sort of understand how you'd feel that way, though, and
wish you the best in whatever direction you do decide is the best for you.
Jack Denger
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
Inspiring! I'm currently putting together a rings routine that I might
use for the IJA juniors. I'll try my best ;)
J
Colin E.
>
> boosh wrote:
> >
> > wes peden wrote:
> > >
> > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > >
> > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> >
> > http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?
> viewkey=c4c78cafadb83d2888cb&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr
> >
> PLEASE!!!!!!!!! buy yourself a new brain, oh! that's not possible! well
> there is no hope for you. That was
> very new to steal Olofs musik and to drop your ass of. Buy yourself a
> firepoi and start to smoke weed
> instead.
The BYJOTY is about nurturing new, young juggling talent. I am guessing
you will never be asked to be a guest judge in this competition. From you
coments above you seem to think that juggling (or at least juggling video
making) is some elitist moevement and Luke has failed to meet the bar.
Regards,
Colin E.
Colin E.
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> > wes peden wrote:
> > >
> > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > >
> > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> > >
> > > please and thank you.
> > >
> > > /wes
> > >
> >
> > W O R D
> >
>
> I have asked myself the same question!... and because of this problem i
> stopped making juggling
> related films after VSNBT MNPLTN SRS... because I never got anything back
> from the juggling world,
From what I recall your videos were very well received, with many people
citing them as the best they had ever seen.
So you want more? Stop being so greedy and arrogant. So you wanted to (and
failed to) inspire some new wave of creative juggling video making? Have
you ever stopped to think why you failed?
[...]
> I will do new stuff!...
Like being rude to people on the internet? Sorry ozzer, that's being done
already.
Matthew Tiffany
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
ah yes, the grand epihany of an acts degree, i had one, you videoed and
put yours online, eek went the other way completely and now likes a wider
and more 'ordinary' range of music, mst of my friends had one. i think
your bang on in what you saying and this applies to the wjf junkies who r
endlessly spinning around faster and faster with more! pick you up on one
small point though, at 1;25 u imply you dont get paid for what you do when
infact the juggling community has helped you with funds to go to sweden.
i think not confining yourself to 1form is important too, once you start
looking you cn draw inspiration from other artforms and bring it into the
one you do.
tiff
xx
Matthew Tiffany
> PLEASE!!!!!!!!! buy yourself a new brain, oh! that's not possible! well
> there is no hope for you. That was
> very new to steal Olofs musik and to drop your ass of. Buy yourself a
> firepoi and start to smoke weed
> instead.
>
i think you should pick on someone your own size mate! you have no idea of
lukes background. as a close friend of his i want to retract your
statement as your opinions are absolutly wrong, luke has a very creative
and fine young mind but unfortunatly cant spend 9 hours a day juggling cos
he pulls himself in all sorts of directions, like music and maths and
various other persuits that you cant possibly know about based on 1
juggling video.
apologise!
tiff
wes peden
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
> ah yes, the grand epihany of an acts degree, i had one, you videoed and
> put yours online, eek went the other way completely and now likes a wider
> and more 'ordinary' range of music, mst of my friends had one. i think
> your bang on in what you saying and this applies to the wjf junkies who r
> endlessly spinning around faster and faster with more! pick you up on one
> small point though, at 1;25 u imply you dont get paid for what you do when
> infact the juggling community has helped you with funds to go to sweden.
yes, super true for shows and products i make i do get paid but no one
gives me money each day to
juggle. i'm not jugging to make money i'm making money so i can keep
juggling.
>
> i think not confining yourself to 1form is important too, once you start
> looking you cn draw inspiration from other artforms and bring it into the
> one you do.
totally!
rock on tiff!
/w
Matthew Tiffany
that)
maybe if you didnt shield your eyes behind a shroud of arrogance and
hate for a community who adores your videos you might change your strong
but incorrect opinions. you are the kind of guy who marches over all the
little people at conventions eating up space just so you can continue with
what your doing arnt you?
wes in his video along with talking about creativity was saying 'you
do this for youself, noone else, just you' however you are clearly
obsessed by what others think, otherwise you would be happy with any sort
of review or comment. this also means that regardless of you being in a
little room with interesting people or in a massive open community you
will never be creative because you will always be too preoccupied with
what others think of what your doing. your ideas will always be generated
to suit what others want, not yourself, so you do what they like,
therefore its them being creativeas they are giving you the ideas. and now
you abuse those people aswell with rants like the one above and also the
cutting remarks you sent to luke (boosh), you are going to be very lonely
mate.
tiff
Matthew Tiffany
i know is of phd students and research and development people, they get
paid to practice, as in find out new stuff and then present it, i suppose
thats why performers charge so much, to account for their practice time
too?
plumsie
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
Such wise words from someone so young.
I've only ever performed once (twice according to some) and I tried do do
some things that I thought were new. I'm not a great juggler but I try to
do some things that are different.
I've loved all of your recent videos, seeing someone do something new is
wonderful. I bought the manipulation research lab dvd to get ideas on how
to break things down and create something new.
Peer pressure is something that is hard to escape, we are all subjected to
it and taught to conform to standards, it's the same as women wanting to
look like the airbrushed models in magazines and men wanting to look like
calvin klein models. I don't strive to look like that, I look like me and
I act like me.
I like to see something new. Seeing something different keeps the world
exciting. If all I am going to get to see is repeats of stuff I have
already seen then why should I keep watching.
I'm currently putting together a convention show and I told a couple of
people who I had lined up and they didn't know who most of them were. I've
got acts booked that I have never seen the routines. I want to see
something new.
Plumsie.
........
www.juggler.net/lestival
Mark Nicoll
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
I think part of the problem is that in order for something 'new' to be
taken seriously as a meaningful contribution, it needs to be done decently
well. It tends to be necessary to have a strong foundation in the stuff
everyone does, as a spring-board to newness. It takes determination to get
to a stage where you can improvise and a not inconsiderable amount of
talent to actually go beyond.
It's just not given to everyone to be able to do that, which is partly why
you're stuff is so popular. It's invigorating and exciting to see.
I couldn't possibly do that with juggling - I'm just not good enough. I do
try and mix it up a bit as an artist though.
There is a further artistic consideration, besides raw originality, beyond
'newness' as an objective. "What is this?", "What effect does it have?",
"How does it relate to the world, other people, myself?".
MonkeyJuggler
> rant
>
Yay. Nice to see some passion but misdirected here IMO.
Makes me glad to remember that I thought the Visionbot stuff was the worst
kind of Emperors New Tricks garbage (and said so). Well shot, inventive
and probably amongst the most boring vids out there.
Well done for trying. Now go and do something different.
Cheers for starting a great discussion Wes.
Have fun.
Alan
aaron gregg
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
That's one hell of a call to arms.
Though I agree with much of what you're saying it came off a bit arrogant
to me. Do realize that few people have the abilities you do - myself
included. I'm not a terribly gifted juggler but I am a decent comedian and
that's what I try and stress in my videos by focusing on the areas in
which I can be creative.
You've got an amazing combination of technical skill and understanding of
movement and performance that few in the juggling world have. Please
don't get condescending by expecting the same of others. People do what
they can and though I am just as tired as you of watching dull
performances that include only things I've seen before - they're always
going to exist. So many young people seem to juggle for the sake of
accomplishing something and then showing others on Youtube that's it's
impossible to stop.
What I'm trying to say is this Wes. Please continue what you're doing and
try and influence others but please respect the position you have. Don't
talk down to people because we aren't you and you're Swedish friends. I
really like the idea of challenging others to create new things but don't
insult them at the same time.
-Aaron
boosh
The music wasn't meant to be stolen, as was the reason I speant a long
time remixing parts of it.
The use of it was because it fitted the character of my routine, and
because, quite basicly, I thought it suited the way I was trying to
portray my juggling.
Full credit to olof (who is Incredibly good, the music WAS originally by
il mondo dei robot, NOT me, but I never in that routine claimed otherwise.
Sorry to offend you in the fact that I can't sit at home all day and make
my own music, but if you'll notice, none of the other compettitors did
that either. [1]
I don't think michael jacksons going to now hunt down freddy, or bono
wants to give ady a peice of his mind about it.
But thank you very much for that completely intellectual, stupendously
helpful little critique.
luke
x
[1]In fact, because of the mixing (and correct me if I'm wrong here,) my
music had more parts put in by me than a lot of the other competitors.
wes peden
hej hej Arron,
i am not in anyway trying to talk down to anyone or try and make anyone
more like me. i'm just trying
to challenge people to be something different than everyone else.
"So many young people seem to juggle for the sake of
accomplishing something and then showing others on Youtube that's it's
impossible to stop."
but i'm not trying to stop it i'm just saying to them that there is
something else that they can
accomplish besides a 6x4 3 up. most likely something better.
i think you do a great job of using your strengths to make something
different and good.
i'm very sorry if this cam off as arrogant to anyone else. that's far from
what it was supposed to do.
/wes
brynbobaggins
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
As an old fart I think it is unlikely that I will show you anything
'new'(is that new to you or never seen in the history of mankind?) You hit
the nail on the head when saying that the future lies with the yoof-
evolution depends on new generations taking over again and again and
finding new ways to do things. I help run a youth project and get amazed
every week at the speed that kids climb learning curves - back in my day
mills mess was an advanced trick now it seems to be a beginners one. But
should I be teaching them mills mess at all, or am I just indoctrinating
them with my own perception of what a cool trick is? Are there building
blocks that jugglers need so they can then use them to create new things?
Or do young jugglers only learn this stuff so they can fit in with their
peers, impress other jugglers and become clones? An interesting sideline
off this is the power t'internet is playing in this, any kid can get on
youtube and teach themselves how to be Wes Peden. But is this a bad thing?
It seems to me that creativity comes from the sharing of ideas, sparking
off each other, trying 'new to me' stuff and then finding new ways. Isn't
that what the beauty of juggling is all about- that moment where your
hands do something that you never knew they could, that you don't quite
understand how they did it but it just happened? That is something that
even happens to old farts like me, only with decreasing regularity.
ps. I guess by your frustration with the stale state of juggling you
missed the Kendama at the BJC....
Steven Ragatz
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
Wes,
Get a diary and lay off the weed.
Steven Ragatz
Marden117
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
I think jugglers should do as writers of constrained writing do. A whole
book was written without the letter "E" [1] while another was written
without repeating a single word twice [2]
Try and apply this to your juggling. Set yourself a rule or a variety of
rules that mustn't be broken and see where it takes you.
Wes, I agree that one doesn't need to be a master juggler to be creative.
Danny
[1] Gadsby. Ernest Vincent Wright.
[2] Never Again. Doug Nufer.
Daniele Caselli
juggling is a big part of your life,
but please don't take yourself too seriously!
ozzer
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> > wes peden wrote:
> > >
> > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > >
> > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> > >
> > >
> > > /wes
> > >
> >
Well that thing about the critic of my films was not a big part of my
point, just an example. And of
course I got good critic and constructive response also, so that is fine,
i was happy with it. The
example was more just to illustrate the common juggler who are fine with
anything and just don't
care, he just eats and farts. I'm not the best person to explane it in
english, beacuse it's my second
language. But I enjoy your answers! But can't you understand that there
are people in the juggling
world who loves juggling so much and work all there lives to make new
things and want to have
something inspiring back, but they will never get anything back. What will
Wes get back from the
juggling world after he has spent all his life on it? well probably
nothing. Almost no one cares about
juggling a lot, most of the people are satisfyed with seing some
backcrosses or bad imitations of
stefan sing. The juggling community is not about knowlegde at all, we just
met up on the beach and
pass some clubs and everyone is happy, well of course that is fine. But
for some of us juggling is more
important than that.
I don't care what you think of me or my films, I'm just frustrated because
one of my biggest passions
in life are dying because of the lack of good people and good jugglers. I
went to EJC last year and saw
5 good acts!.. on the worlds biggest convention I saw 5 good acts. But I
saw thousands of
grasssmoking hippies and a lot of WJF wannabes, I think that sucks. So it
is wrong to be picky?
I'm not an evil person, but if you think that, i'm fine with it.
ozzer
>
> boosh wrote:
> >
> > wes peden wrote:
> > >
> > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > >
> > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> > >
> > > please and thank you.
> > >
> > > /wes
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?
> viewkey=c4c78cafadb83d2888cb&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr
> >
> >
> >
> > luke
> > x
> >
> >
> > [1] However drop-ridden it was.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> PLEASE!!!!!!!!! buy yourself a new brain, oh! that's not possible! well
> there is no hope for you. That was
> very new to steal Olofs musik and to drop your ass of. Buy yourself a
> firepoi and start to smoke weed
> instead.
>
Can't ANYONE here see why I think that Booshs reply was a huge insult to
what Wes said? He was
trying hard, and had a really good point, and the first thing is that you
reply with that. That was why i
chosed to reply in that very childish and imature way.
Peter Bone
Personally, I agree with Aaron and found the video a little pretentious. I
like seeing people like you come up with new stuff and occasionally doing
something a bit different myself but you seem to think that everyone
should see juggling as an art and therefore never do anything old. For
some people this is a bit like asking a sprinter why they only do
sprinting. Some jugglers aren't out to show people anything. I think I
fall somewhere inbetween and like to challenge myself to existing tricks
that I know are difficult or have been thought of but not done before, and
sometimes I like to discover something new.
Another point I have is that the amount of originality is ambiguos. In
your recent videos you wore a bin liner while juggling and in another you
sang. To a lot of jugglers this would seem original and interesting or
strange but to other performers/artists it may seem that you're still not
being different enough and wonder why you must always manipulate objects
in your videos. So where do you put the limit on how different you must
be? I suppose this is a question about art in general that I've always
struggled with.
Pete
boosh
I'm sorry I offended you then.[1]
luke
x
[1] I wouldn't mind, if wes is insulted however, that he said it. Judging
from the ammount of posts he has already made on this topic, I would of
thought he might have already chastised me for insulting his thoughts. But
I guess I must be wrong.
ozzer
That is not true, I did my own ideas, And I am creative, almost everyone
is in some way.
I did the MNPLTN SRS for myself, just to learn to make videos better, that
was to practice my video
skills, and also because it was fun. Do you think that seing Isak doing
silly faces or bending rings
against trees are what people wanted to se? I think that most of the
people did not like it at all. I have
one more juggling film that I did after the series and have not released
because I don't care if people
sees it or not. I'm not obsessed with what people thinks, and i was happy
with the response i got. I
think you also misunderstood some things I was trying to say, It's hard
for me to explane it the right
way in english.
Yeah of course I will die lonely and go to hell.
ozzer
You didn't offend me, so you don't have to apologize. but I just think it
was an isult to wes, but that's
only me, probably wes didn't think the same. And in one way it was very
brave of you to post that
after what wes said, and that's a quality.
ozzer
Do you think I would wright things like I did if rec and what the
rec.people thinks about my videos
were important to me??? Of course I understand what people thinks of me
when I wright things like
that.
rhalf
>
> Ignacio Pacheco wrote:
> >
> > 1st im not very good in write in english, but im going to try, becouse the
> > subject is very interesting
> > im a fan of the new creative styling juggling and the new form of art
> > juggling,
> > but i think before to do that, is necesary to get a "level" of juggling,
> > like you Wes, you get a important level of juggling and then you get
> > creative and start you investigacion in art and juggling
> >
> > sorry for the bad inglish
> >
>
> i don't think so. i think it's all a matter of what you work on and that's
> your choice from the start. i
> have a friend named Avi in the states who the first day i saw him with
> clubs wasn't working on
> backcrosses or flats of under the leg he was trying to throw one so the
> knob landed in his elbow pit
> behind the neck so it would swing there and fall to his other hand which
> was waiting for it behind the
> back. (!!!!)
>
> i mean if you want to get really good at running you can for sure make
> your legs stronger by doing
> other things before you start running but why not just run?
>
> /wes
>
>
>
>
It is easy to speak like that from your point. You had gotten an
unbelievably high skills before you started taking up that more "honest"
matter seriously. Now you learn juggling houndred times faster than any
amateur mastering basics of object manipulation. Of course you can
strenghten your abilities by doing strictly what's on your purpose, but it
is much harder than that.
You can't regret taking part in WJF, can you?
Practicing basic and seen before patterns develop your mind. You can get
more intellectually into the subject.
wes peden
i'm not trying to say what everyone should do or should be or anything
like that. i just get frustrated
when i see kids who are super smart with art and music and dance but then
separate juggling in there
mind so they don't apply the same ideas to it. i want people to open their
minds when they think
about juggling and not just take the easy way and mirror everyone else.
obviously this is only what i think and everyone should do what they like
i'm just trying to open the
idea so people think about it when they might not of if no one said
anything.
>
> Another point I have is that the amount of originality is ambiguos. In
> your recent videos you wore a bin liner while juggling and in another you
> sang. To a lot of jugglers this would seem original and interesting or
> strange but to other performers/artists it may seem that you're still not
> being different enough and wonder why you must always manipulate objects
> in your videos. So where do you put the limit on how different you must
> be?
i have been working and thinking a lot with that kind of thing now and i
think the reason i juggle in
my videos is because that's what i have been doing longest and that's what
i can use to say what i
want to say or make the picture that i would like to present the easiest.
maybe later in my life it'll be
something else but for now it's juggling.
thanks for thinking and responding!
/wes
wes peden
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
> As an old fart I think it is unlikely that I will show you anything
> 'new'(is that new to you or never seen in the history of mankind?) You hit
> the nail on the head when saying that the future lies with the yoof-
> evolution depends on new generations taking over again and again and
> finding new ways to do things. I help run a youth project and get amazed
> every week at the speed that kids climb learning curves - back in my day
> mills mess was an advanced trick now it seems to be a beginners one. But
> should I be teaching them mills mess at all, or am I just indoctrinating
> them with my own perception of what a cool trick is?
of course it's fine to teach these tricks to new jugglers they can decide
for themselves later if they
want to work with it or not. i think in the very beginning it's fine to
teach these tricks so that they can
learn the basic throwing and catching skills but make sure you open up
possibilities to them about
creating there own tricks and let them explore the possibilities left open
of a trick you should them so
they get used to searing for new things.
(all of the above are only wes opinions)
>Are there building
> blocks that jugglers need so they can then use them to create new things?
> Or do young jugglers only learn this stuff so they can fit in with their
> peers, impress other jugglers and become clones? An interesting sideline
> off this is the power t'internet is playing in this, any kid can get on
> youtube and teach themselves how to be Wes Peden. But is this a bad thing?
> It seems to me that creativity comes from the sharing of ideas, sparking
> off each other, trying 'new to me' stuff and then finding new ways.
yes exactly if everyone is sharing AND finding new ways the world would
kick ass!
>Isn't
> that what the beauty of juggling is all about- that moment where your
> hands do something that you never knew they could, that you don't quite
> understand how they did it but it just happened? That is something that
> even happens to old farts like me, only with decreasing regularity.
>
> ps. I guess by your frustration with the stale state of juggling you
> missed the Kendama at the BJC....
no i was there... i don't understand how that relates though? enlighten me
please.
wes peden
i'm here in circus school taking dance a few times a week and i am by far
the worst in my class. things
are in that class don't come to me as fast as they do other people and i'm
not nearly flexibly enough
to make it work smoothly. when i try to make my own stuff with dance it's
really really hard and most
of the time it sucks when i'm done but i think it's really fun and
interesting anyway.
> You can't regret taking part in WJF, can you?
i could but would, should, or coulds never helped anyone.
> Practicing basic and seen before patterns develop your mind.
so does making you own work.
Matthew Tiffany
'I'm not obsessed with what people thinks, and i was happy
with the response i got.'
these things that u also said contradict this...
'i stopped making juggling films... because I never got anything back
from the juggling world'
'why should i give and make so much work into my
films when the most
common feedback from the films is, "that was nice, can't wait to se the
next one" '
'So i won't do anymore films because i want to share things in a room with
interesting people'
'And the only thing I can se after my films
from the creative bullshit
jugglers around is bad imitations of my films,'
'Wes is the only really young interesting juggler I have seen'
'I don't care about juggling anymore because of the very pooor climate.'
stop making excuses and fight your argument mr creative god, if you think
that were all crap at making up new tricks then fight what for you believe
and if you think you 'never got anything back from the juggling world'
then fight your fucking corner. you made some awful awful comments about a
good friend of mine about his video (boosh) so heres the consequences to
your actions.
it seems to me that you havent left your 'room with interesting people
that want to change things' for a very long time and if you did you might
find out that there is a thriving creative juggling community out there
that not only have you rejected but ridiculed aswell.
tiff
Arron S
down to earth person with an amazing skill. However....
Your rant/speech(?) came across to me that you were arrogant and were
preaching. I don't want to be preached at. People will find their own
direction and enjoyment in what they do.
Advice on the other hand is often welcome.
I don't think you should be ashamed of your roots. All though the WJF is
silly (in my opinion) it helped you to become a better technical juggler.
Just because something is new does not mean that it is automatically good.
A full critique should not be applied to all work. Some things are classic
for a reason.
Thinking about what an audience wants to see (whether they know it or not)
is often over looked, particularly in contemporary circus.
It's interesting to see how you and your views are changing over time (and
I'm sure I heard a Scandinavian twang in your accent too! ;P).
My advice to you:
Stick to the juggling and give the speech writing a miss (for now).
Also the graffiti on the wall sucked. It was lame. It made you look
foolish. Any intellectual standpoint you have gets sidelined when you do
things like that.
Have a good one...
Arron
Matthew Tiffany
have done this too. composers like avro part use minimalist writing
techniques to try and detach themselves from having to be creative in
their writing, the same could be said of people who arnt interested in new
tricks but more perfect looking old ones.
aaron also has a belting point, we try man, we really try! but its so hard
to do when were not very good at juggling! i struggle !!!SO!!! much to
juggle clubs that i would love to be creative with them but just cant,
they just dont fly in the same way they do when you throw them! the thing
that ozzer is missing is exactly this, i have various people that i
consult with to come up with new tricks for balls, good friends of mine
that ask me to try various moves cos they like concentrating on other
props and so dont have the time or skills. ozzer wouldnt listen to these
people as he wouldnt see them as creative and his juggling will suffer as
a result.
tiff
xx
Arron S
I was trying to say the complete opposite but somehow wrote in a not for
no reason. A full critique should be applied to all work.
Luke Burrage
>
> I don't think you should be ashamed of your roots. All though the WJF is
> silly (in my opinion) it helped you to become a better technical juggler.
When you talk about people's roots being in the WJF, you should understand
that a lot of the big names were already top class jugglers. Wes took part
in and won the IJA juniors before the WJF existed, and he was doing both
technical and creative stuff in his routine then.
Thomas already had a massive following from his online video series and
was so influential that a WJF ball routine might as well be a Thomas Dietz
routine. Vova and Olga already had 3 or 4 world records under their belt.
Toby Walker was a technical legend doing 5 club mills mess and long runs
of 7 clubs 4 or 5 years before the WJF.
Sure, the WJF has maybe prompted these jugglers to practice a bit harder,
but do you think Thomas, Wes, Toby and Vova wouldn't have kept practicing
and getting better without it?
Catch you later,
Luke
PS:
Were = "They were doing something."
We're = "We are doing something."
Their = "It was their car."
There = "The car is parked over there."
They're = "They are doing something."
Your = "Is that your car?"
You're = "You are driving badly."
Luke Burrage
> Catch you later,
>
> Luke
>
>
> PS:
> Were = "They were doing something."
> We're = "We are doing something."
> Their = "It was their car."
> There = "The car is parked over there."
> They're = "They are doing something."
> Your = "Is that your car?"
> You're = "You are driving badly."
>
This wasn't to Arron, but to all the people who have posted in this
thread. Mainly those who speak English as a first language.
Luke
MonkeyJuggler
> PS:
> Were = "They were doing something."
> We're = "We are doing something."
> Their = "It was their car."
> There = "The car is parked over there."
> They're = "They are doing something."
> Your = "Is that your car?"
> You're = "You are driving badly."
>
Loose = Not tight.
Lose = mislay something, not win.
wes peden
>
> First off I've met you (Wes) briefly and you come across as a really cool,
> down to earth person with an amazing skill.
right back at you.
>However....
>
> Your rant/speech(?) came across to me that you were arrogant and were
> preaching.
sorry.
> I don't want to be preached at. People will find their own
> direction and enjoyment in what they do.
>
> Advice on the other hand is often welcome.
>
> I don't think you should be ashamed of your roots. All though the WJF is
> silly (in my opinion) it helped you to become a better technical juggler.
>
> Just because something is new does not mean that it is automatically good.
> A full critique should not be applied to all work. Some things are classic
> for a reason.
>
> Thinking about what an audience wants to see (whether they know it or not)
> is often over looked, particularly in contemporary circus.
i agree but if that is the solo thing driving you then the art is lost.
>
> It's interesting to see how you and your views are changing over time (and
> I'm sure I heard a Scandinavian twang in your accent too! ;P).
i'm learning.
>
> My advice to you:
> Stick to the juggling and give the speech writing a miss (for now).
i'll juggle when i want to and talk when i want to. thanks for the advice
though!
>
> Also the graffiti on the wall sucked. It was lame. It made you look
> foolish. Any intellectual standpoint you have gets sidelined when you do
> things like that.
that wall is on the way to my school and i wrote it there later to remind
myself everyday while i was
walking there. i know it's not good or art and maybe you think it makes me
look foolish but it was
something i wanted to have there and in the video to remind myself to do
and be what i was talking
about.
respect,
/wes
Tim from Leeds
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.juggling.tv/vaults/view_video.php?viewkey=c4c78cafadb83d2888cb&page=1&viewtype=&category=mr
>
>
>
> luke
> x
>
>
> [1] However drop-ridden it was.
>
Thanks for posting that. I didn't get to the BJC so I hadn't seen your act
before, and I liked it. Regardless of what Oskar thinks about the music, I
liked what you did and there was a lot of new stuff in it that I'd never
seen anyone do.
Ironically enough, judging by his video, Wes would advocate ignoring what
Oskar thought of your act anyway and juggling the way you want to. I
suspect most people here (including myself) would also take that view.
Keep it up!
Tim
millsmess
significance in the arts" just for themselves (kind of against my
nature, at least) This is obvious as the most creative people want to
be seen. Or...... if it is truely for yourself then noone ever sees
it...... so the most creative people in the world are those we have
never seen?
Now I can understand an accomplishment like a great ski run, a great
bowling game, an awesome juggling move, pushing your heart rate up 10
BPM average on a 30 mile bike ride. But, if it is for just "me" why
would I video it and post it?
I the Pink Floyd movie "The Wall" there is an interview as to the
meaning of the whole thing. It gets to the point where Roger Waters is
clearing it up and explaining what it has meant to others. Right when
it comes down to here it is, this is what it meant to me when I wrote
it ... Roger says. "You know it is all Ducking confusing"!
My two cents: Do your best, we all have some issues, get used to our
own, change the things you do not like about ourselves, strengthen the
things about us we do like, get a perspective on what matters in your
life, enjoy that or those things to the fullest.
Hi, just thinking and typing, didn't mean to bother anyone.
Steve Mills
On Apr 18, 5:26 pm, wespe...@gmail.com.nospam.com (wes peden) wrote:
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
> --
> ----== posted viawww.jugglingdb.com==----
Tim from Leeds
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
I don't agree with everything you said, but I applaud you for saying it. I
didn't think you came across as arrogant. Thank you for sharing your views.
rhalf
reliable stuff.
We use painting as an equivalent of art. Notice that greatest artists had
to master drawing animals, still life, buildings before reaching their
ideas
Ewano
>
Well, you wrote a lot of things..
I wonder if maybe you need to reassess what it is you want in your life..
For me:
I like to do some juggling, and I want to enjoy myself doing it. It's
pretty much as simple as that for me - so I have expectations but they all
come down to me. If I don't like what I'm doing enough I stop and do
something else. If I am dissatisfied with my experience I either need to
accept it and get on, or go and do something about it. Whatever happens
it's my responsibility - not anyone else's.
I have one thing that bothers me sometimes when I go to a convention in
the UK. I'm reasonably well known and a lot of people will to come and
talk to me. Now I like that, but sometimes I just want to juggle for a
while without interruption. This comes from my own expectation of how *my*
practice session *should* be - which is not what everyone at a convention
might be thinking at that particular moment. What do I do?
I can either get really annoyed at times like this and explode at someone
who came to say "Hi, hows tricks with you." - which seems like a bit of an
overreaction to "one person". Or I can make a change to my environment by
either changing what I want to do, or putting some music on and my
headphones in my ears and isolating myself. The headphones are a clue to
what my expectations are at the time and most people will understand and
not bother me.
In terms of expectations, I don't have a burning desire to innovate
(though some would say I do it naturally). I don't have a burning desire
to perform (though some might say I can do a passable job at it). I don't
have a massive urge to create (though some might say I am creative). I
don't have a burning desire to teach others (though it has been said that
I'm a good teacher, and if people ask I'll usually help out if I can[1]).
As I don't set out with an expectation of these things, they don't matter
to me. The feedback is nice and I can appreciate it for what it is - but
it's not actually important to me.
For you:
Well, only you can ultimately answer the question of what it is that want,
but you seem very unhappy with what you are getting. The only reason that
people ultimately get upset about something is when they have an
EXPECTATION of something which is not met.
Have you thought about asking yourself the question:
What is the thing I am EXPECTING to get from this exercise?
If it is based on what others think, then you have to accept that
sometimes they will not agree with you - which is fine.
If it is based on what you think, then you need to find a way to accept
the limitations in yourself, and either improve those limitations or work
within them - based on your perception of the trade off of return for
effort.
Ultimately if what is making you unhappy is external to you then it seems
to me that you are approaching it with a very unbalanced view of the world
and you might find it useful to have a think about your expectations of
other people. At the moment, they seem a little self centric to me.
If it's an unhappiness with yourself for some reason - then either accept
yourself as you are, or go and make some changes in your life to improve
it.
Specifically in the context of making juggling related videos, I'm
interested to know your answer to the following questions:
What is your motivation for making videos?
What is your motivation for releasing videos to the public?
What do you expect to achieve in making them?
What do you expect to achieve in releasing them to the public?
What has made you want to stop publishing your films?
For me, the earphones work reasonably well when my expectations are
compromised. I don't know what you can do when your expectations don't
match up you what you find in your life. I suspect that telling other
people it's all *their* fault for not living up to the expectations *you*
have of them is not going to achieve what you are ultimately looking for.
Ewano - who found himself a lot happier (juggling wise) when he started
juggling just to please himself.
[1] Except the guy at the BJC who wanted to do dice stacking and we never
seemed to get together with dice. Sorry, maybe next time..
boosh
Thanks a lot!
Its nice that you said that, as I was starting to think I was the one in
the wrong for posting a video to this topic.
The way I saw it, is that wes was asking people to do somthing, not just
talk and rant and and argue and rave about what doing somthing is, or
what-have-you.
I'm glad somone likes the video, and its realy nice to have some positive
repsonse.
Thanks,
luke
x
boosh
Well thank You for the bravery bit. The only reason I posted it, as I have
said somewhere else on this topic, is because of my interpretation of what
wes was saying, which is probably why you had a go at me as well.
The rest, well, its your view, so I'll leave it alone, methinks its been a
tad over-discussed.
luke
x
Vince
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
Good man.
I work on my technical stuff. As you do to Wes. (I'm working on 75 with
clubs right now etc.)
But at the same time I think creating is really important. Actually mostly
because of you Wes. I've been told by TONS of jugglers to create, create,
create. But seeing your vids inspired me to really try. And now I inspire
myself. I've not got a huge pile of my own things yet but I'm certainly
making an effort. And will continue to do so and encourage it in other
jugglers.
I think it's also good to work on technical things juggling. You don't
need it first to be able to do artistic things but having both has serious
advantages.
Control of props being ONE. The things you can play off of with technical
juggling to creative is immense.
So. Just do BOTH. And you'll be better.
It's like learning to juggle and giving your right hand more practice than
your left because it's the dominant and easier hand to work with. That's
just generally a bad idea.
Thanks for the recent vids. I've really been enjoying them and it's been
giving me some new ideas as well. I've wanted to download Peden Tricks
Sweden but I haven't got a credit card.
Anyways, thanks.
Keep up the good work man, looking forward to new vids.
Alan Thompson
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
>
> Get a diary and lay off the weed.
>
> Steven Ragatz
>
New and Creative..hmm...I like it.
Ewano
> > > > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > > > Though I agree with much of what you're saying it came off
> > > > a bit arrogant to me.
> > > i'm just trying to challenge people to be something different
> > > than everyone else.
> > Personally, I agree with Aaron and found the video a little pretentious. I
> > like seeing people like you come up with new stuff and occasionally doing
> > something a bit different myself but you seem to think that everyone
> > should see juggling as an art and therefore never do anything old.
Then wes wrote:
> i'm not trying to say what everyone should do or should be or anything
> like that. i just get frustrated when i see kids who are super smart
> with art and music and dance but then separate juggling in there mind
> so they don't apply the same ideas to it. i want people to open their
> minds when they think about juggling and not just take the easy way and
> mirror everyone else.
>
> obviously this is only what i think and everyone should do what they like
> i'm just trying to open the idea so people think about it when they might
> not of if no one said anything.
A wise man once told me that I use the word "should" too much. Maybe the
word "could" would be a better choice. In a lot of ways it's true -
"should" is an instruction, whereas "could" is a choice.
Later I told him sometimes he should use the word "should" more often when
he wants people to do things, because "could" makes them think too much.
It's frustrating when you have a passion for something and you are in the
top layer of the pile - there is not much to inspire you except your
contemporaries. Why do you think some good artists go a bit gaga? Why do
you think some rock stars end up going off the rails?
I can see why some people may see your plea for something more challenging
from your peers as arrogant. I don't think it is, but you need to not lose
perspective on the fact that you are at the top of the game right now. You
have the "package" lots of skill, youth, creativity and confidence. If you
find the lack of other people at your level frustrating then it's just
something you will have to come to terms with - help us when you can, draw
inspiration from us when you can, and try to find the best ways you can to
push and inspire yourself.
It's a fine balance between being happy with where you are and are going,
getting frustrated because there's nobody who can understand what you are
doing.
*I*[1] think you "should" be careful that you don't get to the point where
you start telling people what they "should" do, but maybe continue
pointing out what they "could" be doing. Many people are inspired by you,
to achieve the best they can. Most can only try to imitate[2], which in
itself shows a desire to improve. Those that can keep up creatively and
want to show it will be few and far between - relish them when they show
you something new. Just be careful you don't make everyone else feel bad
because they can't be new and innovative for you buddy.
Ewano - wondering if he's the only one who thinks this sounds like a Star
Wars "Don't be tempted by the dark side" speech..
[1] I'm a lost cause..
[2] Dude, I learned that sweet club roll across the shoulders trick
recently because I saw you doing it and thought it looked cool.
Daniele Caselli
>
> It's frustrating when you have a passion for something and you are in the
> top layer of the pile - there is not much to inspire you except your
> It's a fine balance between being happy with where you are and are going,
> getting frustrated because there's nobody who can understand what you are
> doing.
Are you saying that Wes Peden is a misunderstood genius?
And that we are too much stupid to understand his theatrical monologues?
No intent to be aggressive by that question, just curiosity...
Daniele
Ewano
>
> Ewano wrote:
> >
> > It's frustrating when you have a passion for something and you are in the
> > top layer of the pile - there is not much to inspire you except your
> > contemporaries. [...]
> > It's a fine balance between being happy with where you are and are going,
> > getting frustrated because there's nobody who can understand what you are
> > doing.
>
> Are you saying that Wes Peden is a misunderstood genius?
> And that we are too much stupid to understand his theatrical monologues?
Don't be daft! He's a great juggler with a lot of creativity and he's more
gifted than most out there - hence in the top layer of the pile (juggling
skills wise). There is probably a lack of interesting and new (to Wes)
fora out there for him - especially when you think of his current peer
group. Genius? No. Frustrated youth having to deal with the problems of
being percieved as something *special* - maybe. I don't know, I'm not Wes.
That's up to him to work out.
Now me on the other hand - I'm not the best juggler, but I'm defo a
misunderstood genius. I'm constantly frustrated by everyone in the worlds
inability to comprehend me or keep up with my mammoth intellect.
You are all simpletons. I'm[1] sure of it..
> No intent to be aggressive by that question, just curiosity...
Yeah? Well thats it! I'm never posting to rec.juggling ever again if you
can't respect my work! etc...
Ewano - wondering how this car of "finest alpine chocolate" will taste in
about 5 minutes time...
[1] Others are not so sure..
brynbobaggins
Just a bit of good old British irony...every BJC there seems to be a 'new'
thing that everyone is getting into, Kendama seemed to be being billed as
the craze of 2008 and personally it didn't do anything for me.
And hopefully without sounding too cringeworthy I thought your show with
Peter was the most creative and inspiring thing I saw at the BJC btw
martyq
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
> Did you call your self a "rebel"in that video? Dude,you're
about as far away from being a rebel as it gets. Good juggler yes,but,
if
any one is playing follow the leader,it's you.
Little Paul
> ozzer wrote:
>>
> Well, you wrote a lot of things..
as did you.
Remarkably sensible things infact. Thankyou for saying it better than
I could have managed, with a bit of luck ozzer will take it as it was
intended.
-Paul
boosh
^that with knobs, and appropriate kudos on.
Thanks for the wordplay,
luke
x
Little Paul
> It seems to me that creativity comes from the sharing of ideas, sparking
> off each other, trying 'new to me' stuff and then finding new ways.
I agree with this 110% - it's much more fun to explore things with other
people as well. This is largely why I go to juggling conventions and
I'm sure I'll have more ideas about toys to play with and avenues to
explore when I leave that buttercup field than when I enter it.
I'm a talentless old fart, I'm never going to put out a video that's
new and exciting (or old and exciting for that matter) - but one thing
I can do, and do reasonably well, is play the "what would happen if you
tried going this direction?" game at conventions. Given a suitable
person to play with, it's often quite productive.
Pity my ideas so often outstrip my skill level.
I'm not sure I'm particularly on topic for this thread though, still
that doesn't normally stop me!
-Paul
--
paulseward.com - a photo a day for 2008
100jugglers.org - 100 pieces of signed juggling promotional material
martyq
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> > wes peden wrote:
> > >
> > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > >
> > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> > >
> > > please and thank you.
> > >
> > > /wes
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I have asked myself the same question!... and because of this problem i
> stopped making juggling
> related films after VSNBT MNPLTN SRS... because I never got anything back
> from the juggling world,
> some talent are there but why should i give and make so much work into my
> films when the most
> common feedback from the films is, "that was nice, can't wait to se the
> the one right now!... (I HAVE SEEN ONE GREAT JUGGLING FILM IN MY LIFE!!!!
> AND IT IS CALLED:
> TRILOBITE, that is pretty fucked up!!! ONE FILM!!! MY GOOD)
> So i won't do anymore films because i want to share things in a room with
> want to change things instead of being in the juggling community. All the
> inspiration i got for my
> films was from other areas, well of course there are some good people that
> are brave and do new stuff
> and care about things that are interesting but they are very very very
> few, but the amount of people
> who thinks they do are so many. And the only thing I can se after my films
> from the creative bullshit
> jugglers around is bad imitations of my films, that's soo depressing!...
> do something new, and do it
> good. Wes is the only really young interesting juggler I have seen. The
> hope is almost gone.. and I
> INSTEAD OF? can you rec nerds spell the word?... That's why Visionbot is
> closed. That's why it is
> impossible to download the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS anymore. You can share them or
> burn them I don't
> care, because they are old. I will do new stuff!...
>
> Cheers Wes.
>
> Oskar Wrangö
> (maker of 9-1 nordic objects and the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS)
> http://oskar.wrango.c
>
Damn! How many compliments do you need? What do you
want people to do? These are mostly young kids on here watching your
videos. Shall they build you a freaking statue of you?
Im sure everyone is sorry you don't care about juggling anymore. I
would think a true artist would hang in there. Don't cut off your ear!
The Void
> A whole book was written without the letter "E" [1]
> [1] Gadsby. Ernest Vincent Wright.
So, he didn't credit himself? Or did he use a pen name?
The Void
................
Will write a more interesting reply to this thread later.
The Void
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> please and thank you.
Man, I spend one day in Ikea, and RJ gets interesting again.....
John Peel was an English radio DJ. For 40 years he played records. He
played blues, rap, rock, country, lounge, speedcore and The Fall. He
played skiffle, necro, nerdrock, art school punk and The Fall. He played
grime, metal, The Fall, happy hardcore, big band and twee. He played 78s,
45s, 33s, CDs, acetates, demo tapes and 8 track cartridges. He booked
session recordings where the band could record absolutely anything they
wanted to. He hosted live concerts from the most exciting new artists
around. He played crooners, he played boppers, he played avant gardists,
wailers, buskers, screamers, melodists, and bird-whistlers. This old man,
he played Case, he played Joeyfat on my shoe, with a Art Brut, Half
Japanese, Babe The Blue Ox, this old man kept playing Drone.
When asked what his criterion was for including a record on his show, he
said "I just want to hear something I've never heard before".
Wes, you're just imitating John Peel - do something original. The previous
sentence may or may not be intended to be taken seriously. It may also be
a work of art, created with the intention of challenging the audience.
I've enjoyed most of your videos, Wes, sometimes with staples, and with
varying degrees of elbow bend. This one is undoubtedly your best.
A while back, someone wrote this for a magazine that never happened:
"Bounce bounce bounce!
No, Clubba's not over-excited, it's just it seems like there are a lot of
ideas being pinged around lately. One of the great things about the
juggling community is that we can all bounce off of each other to come up
with new tricks, routines, ideas and general silliness. Xah Lee had some
ideas about between the leg juggling, and Will Penman ran with them and
made a video. WJF came to England, and Nathan decides to come up with an
alternative formula for a competition. Down at the local workshop, Mike's
mixing toothbrush tricks with devil stick and poi.
Boing boing boing. Where would Francis Brunn have been without flamenco?
What price Get The Shoe without badly dubbed martial-arts movies? Gandinis
without tennis rackets? - not nearly so funny! Far be it from us to tell
you lot what to do, but inspiration and imagination should be limitless.
Next convention, we want to see the Dr Who roller-skate diabolo act, the
Degas-influenced global-warming unicyclists, dancing-about-architecture
poi, and a windsurfing-themed numbers jester.
Go on, we dare you: pick up a prop from a different angle, and ask
yourself "What would David Lynch/Bette Middler/John Coltrane/Hugh
Mendes/The Spice Girls have done with it?". Who knows what you'll come up
with? It might not be any good, but you never know, it might get a good
review from Siskel and Roeper.
Ping. Zip. Buzz. BOUNCE!"
It may or may not be germane. But it probably should be.
The Void
......................
Has an aching back, had a radio 4 kind of evening, and wants to accordion
the M4 at will.
Norbi
clear of it! But after someone i was chatting to asked me what i thought,
i decided to post the answer here because apparently it was well said...
"I think the video has been taken the wrong way. Granted, he may have been
a touch shouty. But really he made some very good points, they were just
misread i think. Sure, his preachy manner wasn't actually all that
original. But his main point, which it seems everyone missed... was that a
lot of these kids have such creative other talents in dance/music/art, but
when they juggle they just do the same thing as everyone else. More people
need to use their creativity which they clearly have, in juggling"
So yeah. I thought you made some great points. Perhaps a couple things
were a bit questionable, but meh, nothing is ever going to be perfect.
ozzer
You misunderstod that line like everybody else, I probably chosed the
wrong words. Read my later
comment and maybe you will understand what i mean. I don't need credit,
it's not about that.
ozzer
>
> hi, you said...
>
> 'I'm not obsessed with what people thinks, and i was happy
> with the response i got.'
>
> these things that u also said contradict this...
>
> 'i stopped making juggling films... because I never got anything back
> from the juggling world'
In that sentence I mean that I never got inspired by the juggling world
for my films, not that I didn't
get credit or response or comments or reactions. Is that so hard to
understand that I want to be
inspired in the community that I am a part of??
>
> 'why should i give and make so much work into my
> films when the most
> common feedback from the films is, "that was nice, can't wait to se the
> next one" '
That I have allready explained.
>
> 'So i won't do anymore films because i want to share things in a room with
> interesting people'
That's the same thing, I wan't to be a part of a thing were I can be
inspired, I will be inspired by
people that do interesting things.
>
> 'And the only thing I can se after my films
> from the creative bullshit
> jugglers around is bad imitations of my films,'
>
When I did my films I did the things that I liked, I didn't care about
anything else. And I wanted to see
other peoples own storys, and personal ideas and that people cared about
originality and details, and I
have looked around but never found anything that sticks out from the
common things. (with very few
exeptions like Sakari for example) And for me that's the reason why I
can't continue, and that's not
sad at all. I have found a lot of other genres that are way more inspiring
and creative, so I am happy
with that but just little sad over the fact that that good things are very
possible in the juggling world
but almost everyone don't care so much, they are just happy with whatever
new 97531, or headroll or
just anything that are easy to get.
> 'Wes is the only really young interesting juggler I have seen'
>
> 'I don't care about juggling anymore because of the very pooor climate.'
>
> stop making excuses and fight your argument mr creative god, if you think
> that were all crap at making up new tricks then fight what for you believe
> and if you think you 'never got anything back from the juggling world'
> then fight your fucking corner. you made some awful awful comments about a
> good friend of mine about his video (boosh) so heres the consequences to
> your actions.
I'm not making excuses. I will not fight. for me there is not any
consequences of my actions, just a
discussion. Why do you get so mad? I am nothing to you, so why do you even
bother? do you need to
help your friend, i don't think so. I don't care what people who means
nothing to me are saying about
me.
>
> it seems to me that you havent left your 'room with interesting people
> that want to change things' for a very long time and if you did you might
> find out that there is a thriving creative juggling community out there
> that not only have you rejected but ridiculed aswell.
Yeah!... that's a good one. go boy.
>
> tiff
ozzer
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> Well, you wrote a lot of things..
Well first of all, thanks for this comment Ewano, this can maybe get
interesting.
>
> I wonder if maybe you need to reassess what it is you want in your life..
I don't think I need that. thank you.
It's not about the expectations I think because I didn't had any
expectation about getting more
inspired by the juggling world, still I got frustrated because I love
juggling.
>
> If it is based on what others think, then you have to accept that
> sometimes they will not agree with you - which is fine.
Yeah totally! I love people who are different have strong and different
opinions. But I don't think it's
based on what other people thinks.
>
> Specifically in the context of making juggling related videos, I'm
> interested to know your answer to the following questions:
>
> What is your motivation for making videos?
Probably my motivation was that I love juggling and have really fun when I
make videos.
> What is your motivation for releasing videos to the public?
Just seaemed stupid when I put down so much work on them to not being able
to let people see them
if they want, And also I wanted to show juggling that i love, from
jugglers that i adore because a lot of
people had not seen them(with jay as a exception), and I thought that
maybe people will like the
juggling by Elias or Viktor for example. And I also wanted to show that
you can start to care about the
films as a different thing from documenting tricks and shows. That you can
play and do whatever you
want with it, and I wanted to focus on non toss pattern juggling films
after 9-1 because that was the
most inspiring juggling for me at that time.
> What do you expect to achieve in making them?
I expected to get better at making videos, And I think I did but I never
got totally satisfied with them,
and that is a good thing beacuse then I raised what i think is a good
achivement by myself. I got to
satisfyed I would stop trying harder to make better stuff.
> What do you expect to achieve in releasing them to the public?
To get comments and response, both positive, contructive and negative, and
i got that. And also to
inspire the people that liked them.
> What has made you want to stop publishing your films?
Because I don't see enough good juggling videos, (maybe one or two in my
life!, Trilobite and In
Motion with Michael Moschen, and of course a bunch of jugglers have
inspired me with their juggling)
that's why it's not as fun making my videos anymore, because I don't get
enough inspiration, I think
it's better to spend my time on making new things outside the juggling
scene where i get the
inspiration.
>
>
>
> For me, the earphones work reasonably well when my expectations are
> compromised. I don't know what you can do when your expectations don't
> match up you what you find in your life. I suspect that telling other
> people it's all *their* fault for not living up to the expectations *you*
> have of them is not going to achieve what you are ultimately looking for.
This is not about my life. I don't have any expectations/ the people i'm
talking about are living up to
the non expectations ;-) I'm not saying that it's someones fault. I'm just
telling everyone why I'm
quitting and that's because I don't get enough inspiration here. And the
very offensive tone was
because I also as Wes compare it with other things and know that it is
totally possible but so few
people tryes hard, and maybe that is because juggling is not as important
to them as it is for us,
maybe not. My strongest juggling memory ever are from a live performance,
I cryed and screamed
only from the juggling and movements, he didn't tell a story with that
routine, he just juggled, with
three clubs, It's one of the best moments in my life. The juggler who I
had really high expectaions on
that night, just murdered EVERYTHING and everyone in the audience was in
total chock! It was the
best thing ever and I will always remember it until I die. That guy is
unreal, his name is: Matias
Salmenaho.
I'm looking forward to your response, this is interesting.
Thanks
wes peden
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
>
>
> > Did you call your self a "rebel"in that video?
no i didn't.
"there are so many rebels in my age. that's like what we do we be weird we
try and change the world."
before this quote in the video i have stated that i am talking about young
people and that is who i am
talking about in general when i say we. i was reminding people that at
that age you find a lot of crazy
kids who end up changing the music world or the art world or the ____
world with what they do and
the energy they put into it.
> Dude,you're
> about as far away from being a rebel as it gets. Good juggler yes,but,
> if
> any one is playing follow the leader,it's you.
interesting opinion.
ultimatewannabe
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
>
>
> > Did you call your self a "rebel"in that video? Dude,you're
> about as far away from being a rebel as it gets. Good juggler yes,but,
> if
> any one is playing follow the leader,it's you.
>
>
Who on earth could he possibly be following?
Matt Hall
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
> ----== posted viawww.jugglingdb.com==----
It's funny. I noticed this post and I passed over it because I looked
at the title and thought to myself, "WTF? It can't be anything
good." Silly me...
After watching the video and reading all the posts, I don't know where
to begin--I have so many thoughts running through my head. I do have a
question for the group, but I need to work my way to it.
First, I find myself coming back to the practice session with my
students at the Klutz store weekly gathering. We had a blast today.
One of the kids pulls a five box pirouette. The other kid is working
on four diabolos. The other two kids put down their balls and stop
juggling so that they can teach three ball juggling to a grandpa, his
son, and his granddaughter. All this from a group of 14-16 year olds
who I taught to juggle a year or two ago. Which leads me to my first
pithy observation...
What you receive as a gift, give as a gift. Creativity? Demonstrate
it and inspire others. Technical prowess? Teach others how to get
it. An ability to spin 360's like a mongoose on crack? Why not share
it? It's ALL good, because it's ALL juggling. A line I use with the
kids when they get pissed about some trick they can't pull is, "Hey,
we're not curing cancer here." Of course, they use it back on me when
I throw my own personal tantrums. And that's fine as well. I'm not
going to pretend I don't care about juggling deeply. Sometimes the
people/things we love make us furious. If you don't care about
something, it has no power to move you to anger.
Back to that curing cancer comment. Ultimately, I choose to be a
teacher over being a professional juggler mainly because what I do as
a teacher is more significant to me than what I do as a juggler. I'm
not saying choosing to be a juggler leads to an insignificant life.
Not at all. I know too many jugglers (Steve R., Dan H., Ivan P., Jon
W., and Bill B. to name a few) who are living what I consider to be
wonderful adventures. For me, being a teacher of Japanese allows me
to more fully live the overall life I want to live. I am lucky that
juggling adds so much to my life. As a non-professional, when I do
enter that world of juggling, I want to contribute something; a
helpful workshop, a spirited performance that people enjoy, etc...
How I accomplish that is subject to my own whims and judgments.
Perfect. If I succeed, I gain satisfaction from a job well done. If
I bomb, then I have no one to blame but myself. Notice that I do not
necessarily have to do something new or creative to be successful, at
least according to my own standards. Thank goodness. I am not
terribly creative.
Take performing. When I get up on stage, I want to...
a. Do something on stage that I've never done before
b. Show the crowd tricks/combinations that they have probably never
seen another juggler do onstage before
c. Just make it through the damn thing without completely making an
ass of myself
Sometimes it's just about a, or b, or c, or sometimes it's a
combination of sorts. Take this bastard of a routine I've been
working on for the upcoming Dutch Juggling Convention. It is a
relatively brisk 4-5-6-7 ball routine. I have never performed six
balls on stage before, so that's A down. It definitely has some
tricks in it that I 'think' no other juggler has done onstage before
(I could be wrong), so B is looking good. As for C, we'll just see
won't we? Still, I'm excited about the challenge and I have been
enjoying the process of preparing for it.
So, after a bit of a ramble, I have finally arrived at my question:
What do you think would be a good order for the sections of the
routine?
four balls-- five balls--six balls--seven balls (The ol' classic)
four balls--six balls--seven balls--five balls (my current choice,
because the five ball section is probably the longest/gnarliest in
terms of tricks)
seven balls--six balls--five balls--four balls (because I've never
seen anyone do it that way onstage)
What do y'all think? Feel free to message me privately if you don't
want to clog up the thread.
One last thought. Wouldn't it be great to have a large panel
discussion on performing and creating routines with Jay Gilligan,
Steve Regatz, The Passing Zone, The Raspyini Brothers, Anthony Gatto,
Jason Garfield, and Wes Peden? Obviously, you could add dozens of
more names to the list. Talk about different points of view!!!! It
staggers the imagination....
matt
PS How's the kendama coming Wes? =P
ozzer
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> > ozzer wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> > > >
> > > > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> > > >
> > > > please and thank you.
> > > >
> > > > /wes
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I have asked myself the same question!... and because of this problem i
> > stopped making juggling
> > related films after VSNBT MNPLTN SRS... because I never got anything back
> > from the juggling world,
> > films when the most
> > common feedback from the films is, "that was nice, can't wait to se the
> > the one right now!... (I HAVE SEEN ONE GREAT JUGGLING FILM IN MY LIFE!!!!
> > AND IT IS CALLED:
> > TRILOBITE, that is pretty fucked up!!! ONE FILM!!! MY GOOD)
> > want to change things instead of being in the juggling community. All the
> > inspiration i got for my
> > films was from other areas, well of course there are some good people that
> > are brave and do new stuff
> > and care about things that are interesting but they are very very very
> > few, but the amount of people
> > from the creative bullshit
> > do something new, and do it
> > good. Wes is the only really young interesting juggler I have seen. The
> > INSTEAD OF? can you rec nerds spell the word?... That's why Visionbot is
> > closed. That's why it is
> > impossible to download the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS anymore. You can share them or
> > burn them I don't
> > care, because they are old. I will do new stuff!...
> >
> > Cheers Wes.
> >
> > Oskar Wrangö
> > (maker of 9-1 nordic objects and the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS)
> >
> >
> >
>
> Ouch. Well, I must apologize, as I was one of the "can't wait to see the
> next one" people. I really enjoyed the VSNBT MNPLTN SRS, and 9-1 Nordic
> Objects remains one of my favorite DVD's to date; so, I find it sad that
> you do not feel encouraged to continue making juggling-related videos
> anymore. I can sort of understand how you'd feel that way, though, and
> wish you the best in whatever direction you do decide is the best for you.
>
>
>
thanks!... atleast you understood what I mean.
Ewano
>
> Ewano wrote:
> >
> > ozzer wrote:
> > >
> > Well, you wrote a lot of things..
>
> Well first of all, thanks for this comment Ewano, this can maybe get
> interesting.
like interesting.
> > I wonder if maybe you need to reassess what it is you want in your life..
>
> I don't think I need that. thank you.
Well, it pays to ask yourself that question every now and again. I do.
Sometimes it changes over time.
> > For me:
[snipped about me]
> > For you:
> >
> > What is the thing I am EXPECTING to get from this exercise?
>
> It's not about the expectations I think because I didn't had any
> expectation about getting more inspired by the juggling world,
> still I got frustrated because I love juggling.
Well, it seems a bit at odds to be so frustrated with something for which
all your expectations are met. That's just my view of it though, and
you'll have to draw your own conclusions.
> > If it is based on what others think, then you have to accept that
> > sometimes they will not agree with you - which is fine.
>
> Yeah totally! I love people who are different have strong and different
> opinions. But I don't think it's
> based on what other people thinks.
I'm not going to quote you from other parts of this discussion (mainly as
this is not an argument where I'm trying to prove you wrong), we know
roughly what was said and I'm more interested in making sure you have a
good position to see things with perspective so you ca make a good quality
decision on your future involvement with juggling.
You mentioned something about not getting enough feedback from people. I
can't remember if it was specified as "positive feedback", but I have the
feeling that it was just feedback. Anyway, it's not important.
What I want to point out is that even though you might not think you were
looking for congratulatory feedback about your projects - it makes me feel
like you were still looking for something from an external source. The
only way to deal with that that feedback is to simply accept what you get
back - nobody "owes" you the feedback and so expecting it is most likely
going to lead to some level of dissatisfaction on some level.
> > Specifically in the context of making juggling related videos, I'm
> > interested to know your answer to the following questions:
OK, to the meat and bones of it. I'll probably pose some more questions
for you to think about - but I'll also probably make a few statements
first. You may not like them (I don't actually know what I'm going to
write yet, so this is more of a get out of jail card for what I might
write) but they are not intended to be particularly cutting or malicious -
just thought provoking (which they might not be)..
> > What is your motivation for making videos?
>
> Probably my motivation was that I love juggling and have really fun when I
> make videos.
Ok, that's a pretty straight answer. The question(s) this prompts is/are:
Do you still love juggling and have fun making video's? If not then what
has changed? Is it something you want to change back or are you happy with
that?
> > What is your motivation for releasing videos to the public?
>
> Just seaemed stupid when I put down so much work on them to not being able
> to let people see them if they want,
I can go with that, though it seems a little mixed up as a statement.
Kinda like saying to someone that you have made more food than you need so
they can have some if they want. It's like making someone feel grateful
because you gave them something you were finished with anyway.
> And also I wanted to show juggling that i love, from jugglers that i
> adore because a lot of people had not seen them(with jay as a exception),
> and I thought that maybe people will like the juggling by Elias or
> Viktor for example.
>
> And I also wanted to show that you can start to care about the films as
> a different thing from documenting tricks and shows. That you can
> play and do whatever you want with it, and I wanted to focus on non
> toss pattern juggling films after 9-1 because that was the most
> inspiring juggling for me at that time.
OK! That's more like it! That there is a real motivation that I can relate
too. You wanted to show something new to people, something they had never
seen before. You also wanted to show different ways of thinking about film
making.
You achieved the aim of releasing them to the public. I think lots of
people bought or have seen the DVD. I bought the DVD too. It made me think
about making juggling films. I have ideas, but I just don't have access to
a camera, editing kit, enough money to do what I want or till recently the
time to put into it. I'm changing my priorities in life to make things
like this possible - but it takes time when you have other pressures in
life.
So the questions this raises are:
Do you still want to show things to people? If you do have things you want
to show, then what is stopping you? Can that be changed to make it
possible for you do what you want? If not then you've achieved what you
set out to do - so whats all the fuss about?.
> > What do you expect to achieve in making them?
>
> I expected to get better at making videos, And I think I did but I never
> got totally satisfied with them, and that is a good thing beacuse then I
> raised what i think is a good achivement by myself. I got to satisfyed
> I would stop trying harder to make better stuff.
If you feel you have improved as a film maker through the process of
making these video's then that's pretty much satisfied your aim. You'll
never be good enough at it to be satisfied with yourself though - so if
you still want to improve then keep working at it.
> > What do you expect to achieve in releasing them to the public?
>
> To get comments and response, both positive, contructive and negative, and
> i got that.
Ok, so this much you achieved. Some people liked it, some didn't. Some
people probably gave you constructive feedback on choreography, filming
technique, storyline construction etc. I'm not sure I can see a reason why
*I* would not be happy with the results if that was what I set out to
achieve.
The inevitable questions are:
Are you happy with what you achieved? Can you outline in words what it was
that made you happy/unhappy - depending on your answer to the first
question?
> And also to inspire the people that liked them.
Why be so limited? Why not aim to inspire everybody who sees it to either
push themselves in the direction you took them in or push themselves in
another direction as a reaction to it. You don't have to like something to
be inspired by it...
> > What has made you want to stop publishing your films?
>
> Because I don't see enough good juggling videos, (maybe one or two in my
> life!, Trilobite and In Motion with Michael Moschen, and of course a bunch
of > jugglers have inspired me with their juggling). that's why it's not as
fun
> making my videos anymore, because I don't get enough inspiration, I think
> it's better to spend my time on making new things outside the juggling scene
> where i get the inspiration.
I know what you are saying, and I also get irritated by the number of
video's that show no new directions with nothing new presented - just the
same stuff in different locations. However that doesn't make them wrong -
it just makes them irritating to *me*. Yeah, I'm frustrated that there are
less inspirational things out there, but I have to realise that it comes
from two places:
1: Probably the most important thing - I've seen a lot and it takes a lot
to impress me now.
2: Lots of people who have not seen as much as me and don't know what's
out there are making lots of videos.
These things combined make it difficult to impress me (TBH, I could pick
fault with any video out there if I decided to), but the point is that the
knowledge that I'm my own worst enemy for being impressed by things is the
very thing that should give me a perspective to deal with and accept the
second factor - and adjust for it. If I wanted it to change enough I could
try to do something about it - but telling other people what I think they
should be doing is probably not the way to go about it. Though in this
case *I* think *you* should release the final juggling video you mentioned
- purely selfishly motivated of course, I want to see it.
;)
> This is not about my life. I don't have any expectations/ the people i'm
> talking about are living up to the non expectations ;-) I'm not saying that
> it's someones fault.
Ahh, but you did in a way. Which is how this whole thing started off.
You are unhappy about the lack of inspiring work in the juggling world,
and support Wes's statement (as I do in principle but possibly not in
execution). I'll repeat - you are unhappy about somthing. You took your
frustrations out on a kid - who you should have known would know no better.
Boosh is a kid (sorry boosh - but you are), and he thinks the world
revolves about him - like all kids. His initial response to Wes's video is
to try to say "Yeah, I'm cool too". The easiest way to be cool is to try
to imitate that which he sees as cool. Like Wes says kids all want to be
different and stamp their own identity on the world - like all the other
kids. He sees jugglers who are individual and seen as cool in his world
and wants to be individual like them and ends up imitating them *in some
way*. He will change with time and I'm guessing that just like me he'll
look back at some of the things he did in the past that he thought were a
good idea and think - what the hell was I doing that for. This may or may
not be one of those times. It's a natural part of the learning process.
You should know that by now, and accept it. If you want him to
improve/change then give constructive criticism rather than unload your
own frustrations on him or leave him be and get on with what *you* want to
do.
> I'm just telling everyone why I'm quitting and that's because I don't get
> enough inspiration here. And the very offensive tone was because I also
> as Wes compare it with other things and know that it is totally possible
> but so few people tryes hard, and maybe that is because juggling is not
> as important to them as it is for us, maybe not.
I can see quiting because you are feeling a lack of inspiration. It
happens all the time all over the world with all sorts of skills, jobs,
hobbies etc. Have you thought that maybe the reason you find other areas
more inspiring is that you are not as experienced in those areas as you
are in this one? Look at those communities and see if there are any people
who are commonly regarded as "highly skilled" but have left the community
for some reason.
Their reason might well be the same as yours..
More questions (remember I really want answers to them):
So what is the motivation for telling us about it? Why not just stop and
get on with what you now want to do? Are you dissatisfied with people
making uninspiring videos and want them to change to fit your ideal
environment or are you genuinely wanting to make a change in your own
environment through your own actions?
> My strongest juggling
> memory ever are from a live performance, I cryed and screamed only from
> the juggling and movements, he didn't tell a story with that routine,
> he just juggled, with three clubs, It's one of the best moments in my
> life. The juggler who I had really high expectaions on that night, just
> murdered EVERYTHING and everyone in the audience was in total chock!
> It was the best thing ever and I will always remember it until I die.
> That guy is unreal, his name is: Matias Salmenaho.
I'm unsure if you are using the word murdered to mean he killed the
performance on purpose of if you mean he nailed everything he tried to do?
This would alter the way I would react to a piece. I looked up some videos
and checked him out in 9-1 and I came away thinking nice technical stuff,
good combinations but it was limited. Now that's just me, and I have my
own ideas about what is good - for probably very different reasons to you.
The point is that I can appreciate the skill of what he does and the
reasons why he does it - even though it doesn't float my boat. It wasn't
inspiring to me - but that doesn't make it worthless.
> I'm looking forward to your response, this is interesting.
Me too.
Ewano - pissed off that he didn't download the VPRSTLMV whatever when he
had the chance. I thought I could come back to it later and watch it when
I had some time to keep up with things.
ozzer
>
> ozzer wrote:
> >
> > Ewano wrote:
> > >
> > > ozzer wrote:
> > > >
> > > Well, you wrote a lot of things..
> >
> > Well first of all, thanks for this comment Ewano, this can maybe get
> > interesting.
>
> like interesting.
>
> > > I wonder if maybe you need to reassess what it is you want in your life..
> >
> > I don't think I need that. thank you.
>
> Well, it pays to ask yourself that question every now and again. I do.
> Sometimes it changes over time.
>
> > > For me:
>
> [snipped about me]
>
> > > For you:
> > >
> > > What is the thing I am EXPECTING to get from this exercise?
> >
> > It's not about the expectations I think because I didn't had any
> > expectation about getting more inspired by the juggling world,
> > still I got frustrated because I love juggling.
>
> Well, it seems a bit at odds to be so frustrated with something for which
> all your expectations are met. That's just my view of it though, and
> you'll have to draw your own conclusions.
I'm not frustrated about the release and rections of my films, for that
the expectations were met. I'm
frustrated about the lack of good quality stuff in the juggling world.
>
> > > If it is based on what others think, then you have to accept that
> > > sometimes they will not agree with you - which is fine.
> >
> > Yeah totally! I love people who are different have strong and different
> > opinions. But I don't think it's
> > based on what other people thinks.
>
> I'm not going to quote you from other parts of this discussion (mainly as
> this is not an argument where I'm trying to prove you wrong), we know
> roughly what was said and I'm more interested in making sure you have a
> good position to see things with perspective so you ca make a good quality
> decision on your future involvement with juggling.
for that i thank you ;-)
>
> You mentioned something about not getting enough feedback from people. I
> can't remember if it was specified as "positive feedback", but I have the
> feeling that it was just feedback. Anyway, it's not important.
>
> What I want to point out is that even though you might not think you were
> looking for congratulatory feedback about your projects - it makes me feel
> like you were still looking for something from an external source. The
> only way to deal with that that feedback is to simply accept what you get
> back - nobody "owes" you the feedback and so expecting it is most likely
> going to lead to some level of dissatisfaction on some level.
of course but you misunderstood that like everybody else. that was just an
example to illustrate the
common juggler who has no opinions, I mean, I write something wehn I have
something to say. I
didn't need anything more regarding my films.
>
> > > Specifically in the context of making juggling related videos, I'm
> > > interested to know your answer to the following questions:
>
> OK, to the meat and bones of it. I'll probably pose some more questions
> for you to think about - but I'll also probably make a few statements
> first. You may not like them (I don't actually know what I'm going to
> write yet, so this is more of a get out of jail card for what I might
> write) but they are not intended to be particularly cutting or malicious -
> just thought provoking (which they might not be)..
>
> > > What is your motivation for making videos?
> >
> > Probably my motivation was that I love juggling and have really fun when I
> > make videos.
>
> Ok, that's a pretty straight answer. The question(s) this prompts is/are:
>
> Do you still love juggling and have fun making video's? If not then what
> has changed? Is it something you want to change back or are you happy with
> that?
Yeah I still love juggling and have more fun than ever making videos(I
make a lot of non juggling
videos). In the beginning maybe I was happy with doing new stuff and show
it to people, but when I
had spent 3-4 years on that I wanted to be inspired in the community that
I was a part of. So it
changed with the effort and work that i put on it. first I was happy with
only getting ispiration from
other areas and then make juggling videos, later I thought: why am i
making juggling videos when I
don't get inspired by juggling videos? so I start to make other videos,
like musicvideos, or dancefilms
or artfilms, because that is what my inspiration comes from.
>
> > > What is your motivation for releasing videos to the public?
> >
> > Just seaemed stupid when I put down so much work on them to not being able
> > to let people see them if they want,
>
> I can go with that, though it seems a little mixed up as a statement.
> Kinda like saying to someone that you have made more food than you need so
> they can have some if they want. It's like making someone feel grateful
> because you gave them something you were finished with anyway.
that's a interesting thought
>
> > And also I wanted to show juggling that i love, from jugglers that i
> > adore because a lot of people had not seen them(with jay as a exception),
> > and I thought that maybe people will like the juggling by Elias or
> > Viktor for example.
> >
> > And I also wanted to show that you can start to care about the films as
> > a different thing from documenting tricks and shows. That you can
> > play and do whatever you want with it, and I wanted to focus on non
> > toss pattern juggling films after 9-1 because that was the most
> > inspiring juggling for me at that time.
>
> OK! That's more like it! That there is a real motivation that I can relate
> too. You wanted to show something new to people, something they had never
> seen before. You also wanted to show different ways of thinking about film
> making.
>
> You achieved the aim of releasing them to the public. I think lots of
> people bought or have seen the DVD. I bought the DVD too. It made me think
> about making juggling films. I have ideas, but I just don't have access to
> a camera, editing kit, enough money to do what I want or till recently the
> time to put into it. I'm changing my priorities in life to make things
> like this possible - but it takes time when you have other pressures in
> life.
>
> So the questions this raises are:
>
> Do you still want to show things to people?
Of course.
If you do have things you want
> to show, then what is stopping you?
Nothing is stopping me, I make films all the time and shows people, the
last thing I did was the
camera work in this video together with another guy: http://iaredroid.com/
Can that be changed to make it
> possible for you do what you want?
Don't need to because I'm doing what I want.
If not then you've achieved what you
> set out to do - so whats all the fuss about?.
If more people made good juggling videos that I could be inspired by I
would have continued,
becuase then it's fun to make new stuff because then we have evolvment and
change for the better.
But almost no one cares about making juggling videos that shows that the
videoformat itself is the
most important thing with the film. In almost every other culture you have
that,(skateboard, dance,
wakeskate, music, art for example) and that is so beutiful.
>
> > > What do you expect to achieve in making them?
> >
> > I expected to get better at making videos, And I think I did but I never
> > got totally satisfied with them, and that is a good thing beacuse then I
> > raised what i think is a good achivement by myself. I got to satisfyed
> > I would stop trying harder to make better stuff.
>
> If you feel you have improved as a film maker through the process of
> making these video's then that's pretty much satisfied your aim. You'll
> never be good enough at it to be satisfied with yourself though - so if
> you still want to improve then keep working at it.
yeah I do al the time.
>
> > > What do you expect to achieve in releasing them to the public?
> >
> > To get comments and response, both positive, contructive and negative, and
> > i got that.
>
> Ok, so this much you achieved. Some people liked it, some didn't. Some
> people probably gave you constructive feedback on choreography, filming
> technique, storyline construction etc. I'm not sure I can see a reason why
> *I* would not be happy with the results if that was what I set out to
> achieve.
I was happy with that, this is about something else you know.
>
> The inevitable questions are:
>
> Are you happy with what you achieved? Can you outline in words what it was
> that made you happy/unhappy - depending on your answer to the first
> question?
nothing made me unhappy about the release of my films. the other thing I
think I have answered more
than one time.
>
> > And also to inspire the people that liked them.
>
> Why be so limited? Why not aim to inspire everybody who sees it to either
> push themselves in the direction you took them in or push themselves in
> another direction as a reaction to it. You don't have to like something to
> be inspired by it...
Good point, you are right!
>
> > > What has made you want to stop publishing your films?
> >
> > Because I don't see enough good juggling videos, (maybe one or two in my
> > life!, Trilobite and In Motion with Michael Moschen, and of course a bunch
> of > jugglers have inspired me with their juggling). that's why it's not as
> fun
> > making my videos anymore, because I don't get enough inspiration, I think
> > it's better to spend my time on making new things outside the juggling
scene
> > where i get the inspiration.
>
> I know what you are saying, and I also get irritated by the number of
> video's that show no new directions with nothing new presented - just the
> same stuff in different locations. However that doesn't make them wrong -
> it just makes them irritating to *me*. Yeah, I'm frustrated that there are
> less inspirational things out there, but I have to realise that it comes
> from two places:
>
> 1: Probably the most important thing - I've seen a lot and it takes a lot
> to impress me now.
me too.
>
> 2: Lots of people who have not seen as much as me and don't know what's
> out there are making lots of videos.
>
> These things combined make it difficult to impress me (TBH, I could pick
> fault with any video out there if I decided to), but the point is that the
> knowledge that I'm my own worst enemy for being impressed by things is the
> very thing that should give me a perspective to deal with and accept the
> second factor - and adjust for it. If I wanted it to change enough I could
> try to do something about it - but telling other people what I think they
> should be doing is probably not the way to go about it.
I have not told people what they are going to do.
Though in this
> case *I* think *you* should release the final juggling video you mentioned
> - purely selfishly motivated of course, I want to see it.
well probably not.
>
> ;)
>
> > This is not about my life. I don't have any expectations/ the people i'm
> > talking about are living up to the non expectations ;-) I'm not saying that
> > it's someones fault.
>
> Ahh, but you did in a way. Which is how this whole thing started off.
>
> You are unhappy about the lack of inspiring work in the juggling world,
> and support Wes's statement (as I do in principle but possibly not in
> execution). I'll repeat - you are unhappy about somthing. You took your
> frustrations out on a kid - who you should have known would know no better.
>
> Boosh is a kid (sorry boosh - but you are), and he thinks the world
> revolves about him - like all kids. His initial response to Wes's video is
> to try to say "Yeah, I'm cool too". The easiest way to be cool is to try
> to imitate that which he sees as cool. Like Wes says kids all want to be
> different and stamp their own identity on the world - like all the other
> kids. He sees jugglers who are individual and seen as cool in his world
> and wants to be individual like them and ends up imitating them *in some
> way*. He will change with time and I'm guessing that just like me he'll
> look back at some of the things he did in the past that he thought were a
> good idea and think - what the hell was I doing that for. This may or may
> not be one of those times. It's a natural part of the learning process.
>
> You should know that by now, and accept it. If you want him to
> improve/change then give constructive criticism rather than unload your
> own frustrations on him or leave him be and get on with what *you* want to
> do.
I got really frustrated because the film he posted was the complete
opposite of what wes was trying to
tell. (he stole my friends song and totally raped it, that song also
appeared originally in a juggling
video before so that is a good reason to not use it. and extremaly non
original juggling ideas and all of
the tricks I have seen many many times, not only that, he did the tricks
really bad also.) And for me
that was an naive insult. if he had posted it in a own thread I and said
check out my new routine, I had
been fine with it. but he was thinking that he made something special, and
for that I got the
motivation to take him down a bit.
>
> > I'm just telling everyone why I'm quitting and that's because I don't get
> > enough inspiration here. And the very offensive tone was because I also
> > as Wes compare it with other things and know that it is totally possible
> > but so few people tryes hard, and maybe that is because juggling is not
> > as important to them as it is for us, maybe not.
>
> I can see quiting because you are feeling a lack of inspiration. It
> happens all the time all over the world with all sorts of skills, jobs,
> hobbies etc. Have you thought that maybe the reason you find other areas
> more inspiring is that you are not as experienced in those areas as you
> are in this one?
Maybe, maybe not... good point.
Look at those communities and see if there are any people
> who are commonly regarded as "highly skilled" but have left the community
> for some reason.
>
> Their reason might well be the same as yours..
>
> More questions (remember I really want answers to them):
>
> So what is the motivation for telling us about it?
Just wanted to get it out, you know when you are angry you can't just keep
it inside you you need to
get it out. And also maybe some people understand why I quit making
juggling films.
Why not just stop and
> get on with what you now want to do?
I do I do ;-)
Are you dissatisfied with people
> making uninspiring videos and want them to change to fit your ideal
> environment or are you genuinely wanting to make a change in your own
> environment through your own actions?
I wanted the last before, but now my enviroment is bigger than the
juggling world so in that wider
enviroment i still want the last ;-)
>
>
> > My strongest juggling
> > memory ever are from a live performance, I cryed and screamed only from
> > the juggling and movements, he didn't tell a story with that routine,
> > he just juggled, with three clubs, It's one of the best moments in my
> > life. The juggler who I had really high expectaions on that night, just
> > murdered EVERYTHING and everyone in the audience was in total chock!
> > It was the best thing ever and I will always remember it until I die.
> > That guy is unreal, his name is: Matias Salmenaho.
>
> I'm unsure if you are using the word murdered to mean he killed the
> performance on purpose of if you mean he nailed everything he tried to do?
> This would alter the way I would react to a piece. I looked up some videos
> and checked him out in 9-1 and I came away thinking nice technical stuff,
> good combinations but it was limited. Now that's just me, and I have my
> own ideas about what is good - for probably very different reasons to you.
> The point is that I can appreciate the skill of what he does and the
> reasons why he does it - even though it doesn't float my boat. It wasn't
> inspiring to me - but that doesn't make it worthless.
I meant that he nailed everything and just totally killed everything that
every juggler in the audience
thought that good juggling was.
You can't start to compare my story with what you se in 9-1. I'ts really
stupid. I just wanted to share
my best juggling memory maybe so you understand how important juggling has
been to me. That was
a unique live performace/experience, what you see him doing in the 9-1
movie is quite ordinary
trick/combo/videoroutine juggling. so of course you can't even compare it.
It's like: I read this book it
was so fantastic, what? how can you think that I saw the film and it
sucked.
And if you want to see what I'm doing now you can check my portfolio
webpage: http://oskar.wrango.com/
boosh
lots of things, regarding ozzer.
> > This is not about my life. I don't have any expectations/ the people i'm
> > talking about are living up to the non expectations ;-) I'm not saying that
> > it's someones fault.
>
> Ahh, but you did in a way. Which is how this whole thing started off.
>
> You are unhappy about the lack of inspiring work in the juggling world,
> and support Wes's statement (as I do in principle but possibly not in
> execution). I'll repeat - you are unhappy about somthing. You took your
> frustrations out on a kid - who you should have known would know no better.
>
> Boosh is a kid (sorry boosh - but you are), and he thinks the world
> revolves about him - like all kids. His initial response to Wes's video is
> to try to say "Yeah, I'm cool too". The easiest way to be cool is to try
> to imitate that which he sees as cool. Like Wes says kids all want to be
> different and stamp their own identity on the world - like all the other
> kids. He sees jugglers who are individual and seen as cool in his world
> and wants to be individual like them and ends up imitating them *in some
> way*. He will change with time and I'm guessing that just like me he'll
> look back at some of the things he did in the past that he thought were a
> good idea and think - what the hell was I doing that for. This may or may
> not be one of those times. It's a natural part of the learning process.
>
> You should know that by now, and accept it. If you want him to
> improve/change then give constructive criticism rather than unload your
> own frustrations on him or leave him be and get on with what *you* want to
> do.
Probably all of that is true about me, but, like any other kid who behaves
in such a way, I would say bits of that weren't true(predictably, the more
negative bits, regarding me as self-centric, and trying to imitate,) at
least if they are true, they aren't true as a result of a concious
descision to do so.
In another place in the topic I have said that I had questioned whether I
was right to put this up here(and the reason for doing so, relating to
what wes said in the video,)and had thought, after the responses, that it
wasn't right on my part. I'm still not sure whether it was right, wrong,
or a blurred compound of the two.
Sorry for stepping in on a part of the topic which isn't really involving
me, rather you and ozzer, but I just wanted to add my thoughts.
luke
x
Ewano
>
> Ewano wrote:
> lots of things, regarding ozzer.
>
> in such a way, I would say bits of that weren't true(predictably, the more
> negative bits, regarding me as self-centric, and trying to imitate,) at
> least if they are true, they aren't true as a result of a concious
> descision to do so.
Don't sweat it dude! When you are my age and saying this to someone your
age you'll be thinking the same as I am about it. Of course by then I'll
be getting annoyed with whoever you're talking to and probably be rude and
grumpy about it. Bloody kids etc..
> In another place in the topic I have said that I had questioned whether I
> was right to put this up here(and the reason for doing so, relating to
> what wes said in the video,)and had thought, after the responses, that it
> wasn't right on my part. I'm still not sure whether it was right, wrong,
> or a blurred compound of the two.
See what fun the learning process can be?
;)
> Sorry for stepping in on a part of the topic which isn't really involving
> me, rather you and ozzer, but I just wanted to add my thoughts.
Oh I dunno, I was expecting you to pop up. I mentioned your name and said
some stuff about you. Only right you get tell me to "Bugger off old
timer"..
Ewano - feeling old and wise and wrinkly..
fakoriginal
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
Not read the other replies [1], but very inspirational, Wes. Popularity is
over-rated, as is fitting in.
fak - attempting to prevent the cat from rolling on the freshly bleached
floor and licking it off.
[1] OK, I read one, no two.
ozzer
>
> what pete says here is really interesting, and people in music and art
> have done this too. composers like avro part use minimalist writing
> techniques to try and detach themselves from having to be creative in
> their writing, the same could be said of people who arnt interested in new
> tricks but more perfect looking old ones.
>
> aaron also has a belting point, we try man, we really try! but its so hard
> to do when were not very good at juggling! i struggle !!!SO!!! much to
> juggle clubs that i would love to be creative with them but just cant,
> they just dont fly in the same way they do when you throw them! the thing
> that ozzer is missing is exactly this, i have various people that i
> consult with to come up with new tricks for balls, good friends of mine
> that ask me to try various moves cos they like concentrating on other
> props and so dont have the time or skills. ozzer wouldnt listen to these
> people as he wouldnt see them as creative and his juggling will suffer as
> a result.
>
> tiff
> xx
>
That's YOUR quite unintellegent prejudice.
fakoriginal
>
> wes peden wrote:
> >
> > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
> >
> > so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
> >
> > please and thank you.
> >
> > /wes
> >
>
> taken seriously as a meaningful contribution, it needs to be done decently
> well. It tends to be necessary to have a strong foundation in the stuff
> everyone does, as a spring-board to newness. It takes determination to get
> to a stage where you can improvise and a not inconsiderable amount of
> talent to actually go beyond.
>
> It's just not given to everyone to be able to do that, which is partly why
> you're stuff is so popular. It's invigorating and exciting to see.
>
> I couldn't possibly do that with juggling - I'm just not good enough. I do
> try and mix it up a bit as an artist though.
>
> There is a further artistic consideration, besides raw originality, beyond
> 'newness' as an objective. "What is this?", "What effect does it have?",
> "How does it relate to the world, other people, myself?".
>
I'm going to have to disagree with the argument that it has to be done
well to be a meaningful contribution, and I'm going to take Dave Kelly as
an example, specifically Dave Kelly live [1]
I am always staggered by the things that I see Dave try [2], and though
the tricks don't always come off I give points for effort and vision when
considering my response [3].
Not everyone would think of the things that Dave/Wes/Jay/Insert
inspirational juggler of choice here does and lots of people don't think
that they can be creative. Maybe we need more workshops in creative
juggling to show people what they can do and how to work with the skills
they have. This, of course, is only for those people who want to be
creative. Not everyone does, and that's fine, but for any skill to move
forwards somebody needs to be creative. So no saying "can't" until you've
really tried [4].
fak - known to take inspiration from an abandoned red paperclip in
desperate times.
[1] as opposed to edited video performances.
[2] as well as the stuff that he actually lands, which is just as
staggering.
[3] is this why I sometimes find myself to be the only person clapping
during performances?
[4] "Don't want to" is also a valid response
Ewano
>
> I'm not frustrated about the release and rections of my films, for that
> the expectations were met. I'm frustrated about the lack of good quality
> stuff in the juggling world.
Ahh, with that I can't help you.
a) I have no camera.
b) I can't make people be more creative for you.
c) I can't lower your quality requirements.
> > Ok, that's a pretty straight answer. The question(s) this prompts is/are:
> >
> > Do you still love juggling and have fun making video's? If not then what
> > has changed? Is it something you want to change back or are you happy with
> > that?
>
> Yeah I still love juggling and have more fun than ever making videos (I
> make a lot of non juggling videos). In the beginning maybe I was happy
> with doing new stuff and show it to people, but when I had spent 3-4
> years on that I wanted to be inspired in the community that I was a part of.
When I was a kid I wanted a Transformer really badly. I dunno why,
everyone else at school had one and I wanted one too - I was a kid (see
boosh..). Anyway, the point of course is I didn't get one. My family was
poor and my parents couldn't afford to buy me one. Shit happens, sometimes
you just don't get what you want. Times change, I didn't even bother to
see the film last year.
> So it changed with the effort and work that i put on it. first I was
> happy with only getting ispiration from other areas and then make
> juggling videos, later I thought: why am i making juggling videos when
> I don't get inspired by juggling videos? so I start to make other
> videos, like musicvideos, or dancefilms or artfilms, because that is
> what my inspiration comes from.
Interesting. From this it sounds to me like you are really into video
making in general rather than specialised video making. I wonder if your
inspiration for these other video fields comes from the content itself or
the challenges you face in making video to show this new content. I guess
I'm wondering if it's the videos that inspire you rather than the content?
> > So the questions this raises are:
> >
> > Do you still want to show things to people?
>
> Of course.
>
> If you do have things you want to show, then what is stopping you?
>
> Nothing is stopping me, I make films all the time and shows people, the
> last thing I did was the camera work in this video together with another
> guy: http://iaredroid.com/
I was meaning in terms of juggling, but what the hell. I liked the editing
and camera work.
> >If not then you've achieved what you set out to do - so whats all
> >the fuss about?.
>
> If more people made good juggling videos that I could be inspired by I
> would have continued, becuase then it's fun to make new stuff because
> then we have evolvment and change for the better.
Heh, evolvement yes. Better - well that is debatable. I'm sure LP and I
could come up with something new and terrible if we put our minds to it.
The world will never know how close it was to having a porn inspired
juggling video.
> But almost no one cares about making juggling videos that shows that the
> videoformat itself is the most important thing with the film.
Is it? Are you sure that is always the case? Sure it is for some things -
not all..
> In almost every other culture you have that,(skateboard, dance,
> wakeskate, music, art for example) and that is so beutiful.
These cultures are much less specialised than juggling, is it any surprise
that there are less people making good quality videos of juggling. Less
money, smaller community, less street cred (unfortunately), less
advertising, less competition oriented.
There is more of a driving force behind these cultures than juggling.
> I was happy with that, this is about something else you know.
I figured that, but you brought it up dude.. Anyway, lets leave that
behind.
> Good point, you are right!
More often than people will admit..
;)
> > If I wanted it to change enough I could try to do something about it - but
> > telling other people what I think they should be doing is probably not
> > the way to go about it.
>
> I have not told people what they are going to do.
Hmm..
"buy yourself a new brain"
"Buy yourself a firepoi and start to smoke weed instead."
I know I said I wouldn't quote you, but this time I am telling you you are
wrong - but only for this specific bit. You were annoyed and angry at the
time so let it go, but hey - you did say it...
> Though in this
> > case *I* think *you* should release the final juggling video you mentioned
> > - purely selfishly motivated of course, I want to see it.
>
> well probably not.
Ace! Probably is better than nothing.
> but he was thinking that he made something special, and for that I got the
> motivation to take him down a bit.
Oh, I know the feeling... In lukes world (sorry luke, I'm going to be
saying things about you again - I'll buy you a pint to say sorry when
you're old enough to drink - honest), he did make something special. Like
when you invent a trick and then find out it's an old trick. You think
it's the best trick since sliced bread, but really it's just doing a yo yo
or something. I used to get so annoyed with this kind of thing in
juggling, but what do you do?
I remember someone who had just bounced up to me to tell me about some new
fire poi they had bought and how happy they were about it. I told them
that they were crap and I saw their face drop - I felt like shit for a
week. I made up for it the next week by showing her as many juggling
tricks as I could in three hours..
> > I can see quiting because you are feeling a lack of inspiration. It
> > happens all the time all over the world with all sorts of skills, jobs,
> > hobbies etc. Have you thought that maybe the reason you find other areas
> > more inspiring is that you are not as experienced in those areas as you
> > are in this one?
>
> Maybe, maybe not... good point.
Oh, I'm not *totally* full of shit you know...
> > So what is the motivation for telling us about it?
>
> Just wanted to get it out, you know when you are angry you can't just keep
> it inside you you need to get it out. And also maybe some people
> understand why I quit making juggling films.
I understand why you are angry and what causes your frustration, and I
also understand your reason for not making juggling films anymore. Keep
watching though, you never know what is around the corner. You don't want
to miss out on that inspiring vid next week.
As a thought, have you thought of outlining something like a challenge and
posting it here. Maybe it would focus peoples efforts - like juggletween,
the juggling video competition thing, and dietz trick list). Maybe that is
a way of stimulating something. Wes's vid stirred something up, what about
starting a project?
> > Are you dissatisfied with people
> > making uninspiring videos and want them to change to fit your ideal
> > environment or are you genuinely wanting to make a change in your own
> > environment through your own actions?
>
> I wanted the last before, but now my enviroment is bigger than the
> juggling world so in that wider
> enviroment i still want the last ;-)
Probably won't be a competition then..
> I meant that he nailed everything and just totally killed everything that
> every juggler in the audience thought that good juggling was.
Cool, wish I'd seen it.
> You can't start to compare my story with what you see in 9-1.
Well no, I wasn't there for a start..
> It's like: I read this book it was so fantastic, what? how can you
> think that I saw the film and it sucked.
Well not quite, it's more like saying I saw the film and it was good but
nothing special and you saying the live stage show was way better and
unique - which is quite ironic considering what we are talking about...
;)
> And if you want to see what I'm doing now you can check my portfolio
> webpage: http://oskar.wrango.com/
Oh you think I didn't check it out already? C'mon, what do you take me for?
> > Ewano - pissed off that he didn't download the VPRSTLMV whatever when he
> > had the chance. I thought I could come back to it later and watch it when
> > I had some time to keep up with things.
This is the point where you are supposed to say you'll send me a DVD of
those videos in the post etc.
Ewano - wondering why the white chocolate trick[1] doesn't seem to work
with DVD's..
[1] Which still works by the way - I got some in the post last week!
ozzer
both :-)
I wonder if your
> inspiration for these other video fields comes from the content itself or
> the challenges you face in making video to show this new content. I guess
> I'm wondering if it's the videos that inspire you rather than the content?
i'ts both again.
>
> > > So the questions this raises are:
> > >
> > > Do you still want to show things to people?
> >
> > Of course.
> >
> > If you do have things you want to show, then what is stopping you?
> >
> > Nothing is stopping me, I make films all the time and shows people, the
> > last thing I did was the camera work in this video together with another
> > guy: http://iaredroid.com/
>
> I was meaning in terms of juggling, but what the hell. I liked the editing
> and camera work.
>
> > >If not then you've achieved what you set out to do - so whats all
> > >the fuss about?.
> >
> > If more people made good juggling videos that I could be inspired by I
> > would have continued, becuase then it's fun to make new stuff because
> > then we have evolvment and change for the better.
>
> Heh, evolvement yes. Better - well that is debatable. I'm sure LP and I
> could come up with something new and terrible if we put our minds to it.
> The world will never know how close it was to having a porn inspired
> juggling video.
hahaha do it!.. it's new!
>
> > But almost no one cares about making juggling videos that shows that the
> > videoformat itself is the most important thing with the film.
>
> Is it? Are you sure that is always the case? Sure it is for some things -
> not all..
ok not all mostly.
>
> > In almost every other culture you have that,(skateboard, dance,
> > wakeskate, music, art for example) and that is so beutiful.
>
> These cultures are much less specialised than juggling, is it any surprise
> that there are less people making good quality videos of juggling. Less
> money, smaller community, less street cred (unfortunately), less
> advertising, less competition oriented.
>
> There is more of a driving force behind these cultures than juggling.
maybe because juggling comes from circus hippies and slackers.
>
> > I was happy with that, this is about something else you know.
>
> I figured that, but you brought it up dude.. Anyway, lets leave that
> behind.
>
> > Good point, you are right!
>
> More often than people will admit..
> ;)
>
> > > If I wanted it to change enough I could try to do something about it -
but
> > > telling other people what I think they should be doing is probably not
> > > the way to go about it.
> >
> > I have not told people what they are going to do.
>
> Hmm..
>
> "buy yourself a new brain"
> "Buy yourself a firepoi and start to smoke weed instead."
Yeah i know.. but did you think that was a serious comment? it was more of
a rude one.
>
> I know I said I wouldn't quote you, but this time I am telling you you are
> wrong - but only for this specific bit. You were annoyed and angry at the
> time so let it go, but hey - you did say it...
>
> > Though in this
> > > case *I* think *you* should release the final juggling video you
mentioned
> > > - purely selfishly motivated of course, I want to see it.
> >
> > well probably not.
>
> Ace! Probably is better than nothing.
well i guess...
>
> > but he was thinking that he made something special, and for that I got the
> > motivation to take him down a bit.
>
> Oh, I know the feeling... In lukes world (sorry luke, I'm going to be
> saying things about you again - I'll buy you a pint to say sorry when
> you're old enough to drink - honest), he did make something special. Like
> when you invent a trick and then find out it's an old trick. You think
> it's the best trick since sliced bread, but really it's just doing a yo yo
> or something. I used to get so annoyed with this kind of thing in
> juggling, but what do you do?
I don't know.
>
> I remember someone who had just bounced up to me to tell me about some new
> fire poi they had bought and how happy they were about it. I told them
> that they were crap and I saw their face drop - I felt like shit for a
> week. I made up for it the next week by showing her as many juggling
> tricks as I could in three hours..
>
> > > I can see quiting because you are feeling a lack of inspiration. It
> > > happens all the time all over the world with all sorts of skills, jobs,
> > > hobbies etc. Have you thought that maybe the reason you find other areas
> > > more inspiring is that you are not as experienced in those areas as you
> > > are in this one?
> >
> > Maybe, maybe not... good point.
>
> Oh, I'm not *totally* full of shit you know...
>
> > > So what is the motivation for telling us about it?
> >
> > Just wanted to get it out, you know when you are angry you can't just keep
> > it inside you you need to get it out. And also maybe some people
> > understand why I quit making juggling films.
>
> I understand why you are angry and what causes your frustration, and I
> also understand your reason for not making juggling films anymore. Keep
> watching though, you never know what is around the corner. You don't want
> to miss out on that inspiring vid next week.
I wont ;-)
>
> As a thought, have you thought of outlining something like a challenge and
> posting it here. Maybe it would focus peoples efforts - like juggletween,
> the juggling video competition thing, and dietz trick list). Maybe that is
> a way of stimulating something. Wes's vid stirred something up, what about
> starting a project?
don't have time for that now. i'm into my exam work.
>
> > > Are you dissatisfied with people
> > > making uninspiring videos and want them to change to fit your ideal
> > > environment or are you genuinely wanting to make a change in your own
> > > environment through your own actions?
> >
> > I wanted the last before, but now my enviroment is bigger than the
> > juggling world so in that wider
> > enviroment i still want the last ;-)
>
> Probably won't be a competition then..
>
> > I meant that he nailed everything and just totally killed everything that
> > every juggler in the audience thought that good juggling was.
>
> Cool, wish I'd seen it.
>
> > You can't start to compare my story with what you see in 9-1.
>
> Well no, I wasn't there for a start..
>
> > It's like: I read this book it was so fantastic, what? how can you
> > think that I saw the film and it sucked.
>
> Well not quite, it's more like saying I saw the film and it was good but
> nothing special and you saying the live stage show was way better and
> unique - which is quite ironic considering what we are talking about...
>
> ;)
haha
>
>
>
> > And if you want to see what I'm doing now you can check my portfolio
> > webpage: http://oskar.wrango.com/
>
> Oh you think I didn't check it out already? C'mon, what do you take me for?
good. did you watch the videos?...
GraceB
>
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb7Qq8yHuKk
>
> so let's see something happen. show me some action. make something new!
>
> please and thank you.
>
> /wes
>
Will do Wes, I'll try my best to make something creative!
SuchaMuggle
>
>
> What do you think would be a good order for the sections of the
> routine?
>
> four balls-- five balls--six balls--seven balls (The ol' classic)
> four balls--six balls--seven balls--five balls (my current choice,
> because the five ball section is probably the longest/gnarliest in
> terms of tricks)
> seven balls--six balls--five balls--four balls (because I've never
> seen anyone do it that way onstage)
>
>
>
Kris Kremo once said that audiences appreciate you doing 5 clubs first,
then 4, then 3, because the 3 usually has more variety and at first they
are only looking at you, more than at your juggling. So i do 5 torches
first, then 4, then 3 fast, and get good response. Thanks Kris!
I vote for your choice, Matt. Do 4, 6, 7 , and 5. You'll be performing for
jugglers and that's the most jugglish way to order it, imo.
Wish I could see it. Hope you nail it!
John
SuchaMuggle
>
>
> That's one hell of a call to arms.
>
> Though I agree with much of what you're saying it came off a bit arrogant
> to me. Do realize that few people have the abilities you do - myself
> included. I'm not a terribly gifted juggler but I am a decent comedian and
> that's what I try and stress in my videos by focusing on the areas in
> which I can be creative.
>
> You've got an amazing combination of technical skill and understanding of
> movement and performance that few in the juggling world have. Please
> don't get condescending by expecting the same of others.
>
> What I'm trying to say is this Wes. Please continue what you're doing and
> try and influence others but please respect the position you have. Don't
> talk down to people because we aren't you and you're Swedish friends.
>
> -Aaron
>
I love Wes and his juggling and his Superdad, Jeff. Wes is not only a
great juggler, but a very nice guy, and you'll notice he has taken the
time and trouble to answer almost every person who has posted on this
thread.
But this video message kind of smacked me upside the cojones. I couldn't
be a groundbreaking, creative artist juggler if my life depended on it. I
agree with Aaron that Wes' stuff is so amazingly creative partly because
of his core skills and early start: he mastered the mechanics of 7 balls,
7 rings, and 7 clubs so early in his life that he has been free to move
laterally into art and movement theater.
Wes is sort of the new Jay Gilligan: so creative that he is world famous
among jugglers, but in fact bores me once in a while by NOT doing enough
of the standard, classic stuff that inspires me so much. Jay used to run
645 with clubs so beautifully, and pirouette perfectly with 5 of ANYTHING
in the air, but then he'd come onstage and stab pieces of white sliced
bread with a fork or turn lamps on and off. He is brilliant, and so is
Wes, but sometimes I want them to 'just juggle' a bit more before going
into a multi-180-club-trapping-flourishing-stopping-starting-misdirection
routine using 4.38 clubs and a fluorescent cabbage.
My favorite Wes stuff is his mega-high-level variations on stuff I have
tried to learn. He does 6 club singles; i struggle with 5. He does 5 club
backcross 5up 360s; i struggle with 3. He drop+kicks from 7 balls to 9,
while I work so hard and miss on 7.
Then we see this video telling us to create. Well, I am like Aaron. I
perform with comedy for a living, and the more I make people laugh, the
more money I make and the more gigs I get. Comic ability might not be as
rare as WJF-level juggling chops, but it's something not everyone has.
I have seen many talented technical jugglers bomb when they tried even the
most rudimentary comedy routines, while I have killed during shows where I
improv'ed 6 or 7 new lines without nailing any of my technical tricks. If
I couldn't make people happy by talking and wisecracking, I would have
been forced out of the entertainment field decades ago.
In my practice, I bust my ass trying to master a smooth 7 object cascade
and 5 club backcrosses, but can't realistically say I'll ever get to
perform them. "You put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything" is
fine for Marty McFly, but in the real world, we gotta face our own set of
tools and handicaps. I wish I could be a Wes Peden or a Jay Gilligan
because they are so fantastic, but I don't think I'm the only one out here
who knows my limits and has decided to work around them as best I can. So
I must take the What the Duck video with a grain or two of salt.
Keep up the great work, Wes, but remember that every time I try to trap or
flourish a club with my left hand, I drop or sling the club away, cursing.
Be glad you're so ambidextrous, and be grateful that you have the luxury
of having started at age 6 and can paint with a much more vivid set of
colors than many of us Wes fans.
John Nations
Matt Hall
Dear John,
Thanks mate! I appreciate your thoughts and advice, as always. It's
been too long, eh? You going to EJC? =)
matt
SuchaMuggle
SuchaMuggle
wes peden
have you seen Komei aoki juggle 5 rings at the end of his act before?
it's one of the shaky-est things i have ever seen.
obviously do whatever you want. i'm just making a suggestion of something
i would like to see more
of.
/wes
/wes
SuchaMuggle
>
>
> Dear John,
>
> Thanks mate! I appreciate your thoughts and advice, as always. It's
> been too long, eh? You going to EJC? =)
>
> matt
>
>
I love EJC but it happens during a major performing week. If i can get
expenses from the organizers to be in the show or teach workshops, I will
surely come! How do you get hired so much?! Genius.
I apologize to EVERYONE here for my multiple post. I did not click
"Submit" more than once. I was just trying to check for a typo and somehow
my "back" button re posted.
My bad!
Arron S
Teachers at his circus school, fellow students, friends, family? Almost
anyone.
boosh
<snip>
> I got really frustrated because the film he posted was the complete
> opposite of what wes was trying to
> tell. (he stole my friends song and totally raped it, that song also
> appeared originally in a juggling
> video before so that is a good reason to not use it. and extremaly non
> original juggling ideas and all of
> the tricks I have seen many many times, not only that, he did the tricks
> really bad also.) And for me
> that was an naive insult. if he had posted it in a own thread I and said
> check out my new routine, I had
> been fine with it. but he was thinking that he made something special, and
> for that I got the
> motivation to take him down a bit.
>
I'm sorry my video gave you that motivation. As ewano has said, I felt
that in that performance, I was making somthing new, and hopefully
interesting, and hence posted it. I'm sorry that I didn't know you had
seen it all before.
But then again, if you take that opinion, there is nothing new under the
sun .
In relation to the stealing and raping your friends song, its not stolen
or raped, as he offers it as a free download on his myspace account for il
mondo dei robot. So much rather, it was (slightly,) reappropriated, and
any sex therin, was fully concenciating, as he gave up intellectual
copyright on it.
Given that I gave no claim to owning the music in the routine, as I have
already outlined in reference to other peoples routines, I don't see the
issue, even if I did butcher up olof's music.But I have clarified that; If
olof does not want his music to pottentially be used in such a way, then
he should not offer it for free and thus void his copyright.[1]
I did not personally see it as naive or an insult, and I'm sorry it came
across that way. The way I interpreted wes's video is that he wanted to
see new things. As I had recently performed this routine (the first
juggling performance I have ever given I might add,) and had thought long
and hard, many ideas in the rouine, so that neither I or, many people I
know had seen, I thought that I was perfectly justified to post this.
Maybe I wasn't. But at least I did somthing. At least I tried to create
somthing, rather than just sit sround arguing on the internet, how ever
intelectually satisfying that may be.
Well if you wanted to take me down, you did, but,at least not about the
act.
You took me down in that, you insulted my act and me, and told me things
that I already knew I had done ( i.e drop my ass off,) but, as you had
critiscised me, and I had made you angry, in my head, it makes perfect
sense to ingore anything you say, that is, if I follow wes's video. Then
again, maybe what he is saying is oxymoronic, telling people to not follow
people, when he is telling people to follow instructions of not following
instructions.
(that is, if that last point made sense. of course, maybe it didn't and
thus demonstrates the point.)
Anyways, the last bits of my post were a bit rubish, my main point was
about the music. If you feel that strongly about his music being used in
that way, and think he would too, tell him to disable the download feature
on myspace, or else other such abominations like my act may be allowed to
flourish.
Hope that might stir a thought, (hopefully a good one,)
Luke
x
[1]if I'm wrong on copyright law im relation to the blurry subject of the
internet, then yes I am a rapist and a thief of the turpsicorian muse.
Mark Nicoll
exciting than slick immitation.
What I was really driving at is that in order to be able to innovate you
need to be able to something /at all/, that that takes a baseline of
talent and ablity. For instance, if I were to try and do some blue-sky
creative juggling I'd be looking at balls on the floor almost immediately.
It's the difference between utter failure and merely slightly unpolished.
Dave Kelly is communicating an idea which is why we're willing to suspend
finicky judgement on the form of the execution to give him the benefit of
the doubt. And yeah, I'd happily watch Tiff/Wes/(a lot of jugglers whose
work I admire) doing their thing, even if it was wobbly and they were
mostly stuffing it up.
Probably not a line to sell to the public though.
> Not everyone would think of the things that Dave/Wes/Jay/Insert
> inspirational juggler of choice here does and lots of people don't think
> that they can be creative. Maybe we need more workshops in creative
> juggling to show people what they can do and how to work with the skills
> they have. This, of course, is only for those people who want to be
> creative. Not everyone does, and that's fine, but for any skill to move
> forwards somebody needs to be creative. So no saying "can't" until you've
> really tried [4].
I'd love to but, truth told, it'd take too much work for me to really do
that.
My main 'thing' is art and drawing so most of my training time really
needs to go towards that. I'm also into Indian philosophy, gardening,
vegetarian cooking... oh, and juggling ;)
Really I'm quite content to keep trying at a few tricks I'd like to learn,
and be awed by the stuff the rest of you achieve.
Mark Nicoll
exciting than slick immitation.
What I was really driving at is that in order to be able to innovate you
need to be able to something /at all/, that that takes a baseline of
talent and ablity. For instance, if I were to try and do some blue-sky
creative juggling I'd be looking at balls on the floor almost immediately.
It's the difference between utter failure and merely slightly unpolished.
Dave Kelly is communicating an idea which is why we're willing to suspend
finicky judgement on the form of the execution to give him the benefit of
the doubt. And yeah, I'd happily watch Tiff/Wes/(a lot of jugglers whose
work I admire) doing their thing, even if it was wobbly and they were
mostly stuffing it up.
Probably not a line to sell to the public though.
> Not everyone would think of the things that Dave/Wes/Jay/Insert
> inspirational juggler of choice here does and lots of people don't think
> that they can be creative. Maybe we need more workshops in creative
> juggling to show people what they can do and how to work with the skills
> they have. This, of course, is only for those people who want to be
> creative. Not everyone does, and that's fine, but for any skill to move
> forwards somebody needs to be creative. So no saying "can't" until you've
> really tried [4].
I'd love to but, truth told, it'd take too much work for me to really do
that.
My main 'thing' is art and drawing so most of my training time really
needs to go towards that. I'm also into Indian philosophy, gardening,
vegetarian cooking... oh, and juggling ;)
Really I'm quite content to keep trying at a few tricks I'd like to learn,
and be awed by the stuff the rest of you achieve.
>
Mark Nicoll
Please disregard preceding double message, try this;
________
> I'm going to have to disagree with the argument that it has to be done
> well to be a meaningful contribution, and I'm going to take Dave Kelly as
> an example, specifically Dave Kelly live [1]
>
> I am always staggered by the things that I see Dave try [2], and though
> the tricks don't always come off I give points for effort and vision when
> considering my response [3].
>
Ok, yes, I'd have to concede that point, shonky innovation can be more
exciting than slick imitation.
What I was really driving at is that in order to be able to innovate you
need to be able to something /at all/, and that takes a baseline of
ability and talent. For instance, if I were to try and do some blue-sky
creative juggling I'd be looking at balls at my feet almost immediately.
It's the difference between utter failure and something done, albeit
unpolished. Dave Kelly is communicating an idea which is why we're willing
to suspend finicky judgement on the form of the execution to give him the
benefit of the doubt (that, and the tricks are fantastically impressive
anyway). And yeah, I'd happily watch Tiff/Wes/(a lot of jugglers whose
work I admire) doing their thing, even if it was wobbly and they were
mostly stuffing it up.
Probably not a line to sell to the mainstream though.
> Not everyone would think of the things that Dave/Wes/Jay/Insert
> inspirational juggler of choice here does and lots of people don't think
> that they can be creative. Maybe we need more workshops in creative
> juggling to show people what they can do and how to work with the skills
> they have. This, of course, is only for those people who want to be
> creative. Not everyone does, and that's fine, but for any skill to move
> forwards somebody needs to be creative. So no saying "can't" until you've
> really tried [4].
I'd love to but, truth told, it'd take too much work for me to get
anywhere with that.
My main 'thing' is art and drawing so most of my training time needs to go
towards that. I'm also into Indian philosophy, gardening, vegetarian
cooking, physics, and so on and so forth (and juggling, natch) ;)