social desire
brianpdailey
What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
gender presentation?
I was prompted to write this after reading the new 'Juggling Crib' comic,
but i hope this to be a seperate
discussion on what perspective or experiences some of you might have on
this topic. I have a few things
to share that I'm sure are very limited so I really hope to open it up to
everybody (particullarly those who
may have unique experiences or perspectives to share).
Just a recently I saw a show where I woman performer got a super great
reception. She had a nice
routine, but I think people were really celebrating her in terms of her
sexyness. Maybe I was jealous,
but I realy felt that If I had done her routine, in the way she had done
it, that it would not have been very
well liked at all (by the same audience). I am not saying it was a bad
routine, or that there is anything
wrong with any one acting sexy on stage. But I wonder if audiences are
missing out on women who may
not to play it up.
Fun fact: I have been called 'a faggot' more times when I have been
juggling than when I have not (even
if you count junior high-school [that's 11 to 13 yrs or grades 7-8 in the
u.s.])!
Sorry this is conceptually messy and probably full of typos. -brian
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Bekah.Smith
The point of performing is to entertain people. And it sounds like that
female performer just really knew her audience and knew what they wanted
to see. I definitely think that there is a tendency for male and female
jugglers to be viewed differently on stage...but it's certainly not always
the case, nor do I see it as a bad thing.
It may have just been her style as well. I'm guessing that she probably
incorporated some amount of dance in her act...which is supposed to draw
the audience's attention to your body. So it makes sense that they
noticed and appreciated it more than they would if she had done a
technical juggling show. I'm certain that any man or woman who found a
very certain style (whether it be incorporating elements of dance, music,
stylistic knee-slapping, or whatever) that really fit their character on
stage, they would be just as well received as she was.
I wonder if these heckling comments I've heard recently are relevant to
the discussion? Perhaps they'll actually go against what I just said,
since my juggling doesn't have any particularly "sexy" qualities, yet
random drivers still seem to notice more than just the tricks I'm doing...
While working on 5 balls in a friend's yard: "Juggle that shit, baby!"
While unicycling to work: "Oh yeah, I'll give you something to ride..."
- Bekah
ultimatewannabe
Audiences are stupid, really really stupid. Try to think of the people in
the audiences as fourth graders who are really excited to have just heard
about sex. This is assumption will account for most audience behavior.
Something about being in an audience makes you want to act dumb. I was
just in an audience this weekend and a female performer was asking for
"strong volunteers." I jumped up and yanked my shirt off as fast as I
could. Of course that was a stupid thing to do but I knew the performer a
bit and I knew she was a good performer and she did come up with "No,
you're too skinny, sit down." which was very funny.
My point is that an audience of any kind is exceptionally low brow.
Even in the WJF you'll hear performers bitch about audiences clapping for
the easy tricks more than the hard ones.
If you are juggling for audiences and want to do hard things and get
recognition for it, you're in for a very miserable life. Juggle for you
and then you can recognize yourself for any accomplishments you value.
Mike
Fun Fact: I've been called a faggot more times for using a bright pink
bathtowel and trying to start sword fights in the shower than any other
situation.
ultimatewannabe
>
> While working on 5 balls in a friend's yard: "Juggle that shit, baby!"
> While unicycling to work: "Oh yeah, I'll give you something to ride..."
>
> - Bekah
>
Men are pigs. I'm sure they go off on much worse tangents you don't hear
about. They think it's funny and it amuses them in the same sort of way
your juggling/unicycling amuses you. It is also revolting but I can't
imagine it changing anytime soon.
Steven Ragatz
>
> Audiences are stupid, really really stupid. Try to think of the people in
> the audiences as fourth graders who are really excited to have just heard
> about sex. This is assumption will account for most audience behavior.
This is just about the most arrogant and ego-centric thing I've seen
written on rec.juggling.
If you are performing, and think this about your audience, do everyone a
favor and get the fuck off of the stage.
Steven Ragatz
lynne
>
>
> What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
> gender presentation?
There aren't any neutral presentations. Some performers play up to their
native gender stereotypes others not so strongly. It can be done well or
otherwise but the quality of a performance doesn't depend on it. There
are just, traditionally, fewer recognised stage roles for women to choose
from should they want to adopt one of those standard characters.
> I was prompted to write this after reading the new 'Juggling Crib' comic,
the pages of which, as far as I'm concerned, should remain stuck together
after the kids have (metaphorically?) wanked over them.
> but i hope this to be a seperate
> discussion on what perspective or experiences some of you might have on
> this topic.
Oh, alright then.
> I have a few things
> to share that I'm sure are very limited so I really hope to open it up to
> everybody (particullarly those who
> may have unique experiences or perspectives to share).
>
> Just a recently I saw a show where I woman performer got a super great
> reception. She had a nice
> routine, but I think people were really celebrating her in terms of her
> sexyness. Maybe I was jealous,
> but I realy felt that If I had done her routine, in the way she had done
> it, that it would not have been very
> well liked at all (by the same audience). I am not saying it was a bad
> routine, or that there is anything
> wrong with any one acting sexy on stage. But I wonder if audiences are
> missing out on women who may
> not to play it up.
There is some unwritten agreement between an audience and a performer -
one doesn't work without the other. It may not be groundbreaking stuff
but there will always be a market for the "get a takeaway, watch a movie"
kind of show.
It is a mark of the 'better than average' performer that they can
push/pull/persuade an audience into accepting/enjoying more than the
expected.
There are many and varied reasons why this skill is rarer with women than
men and I'm sure others will be quite happy to suggest these if they care
to use their imaginations.
>
> Fun fact: I have been called 'a faggot' more times when I have been
> juggling than when I have not...
Ha, I've been mistaken for a bloke simply for being tall (sure my
'friends' will tell me if there are other reasons :).
Lynne
ijuggle42
> And all women are a pleasure to be around, barrel of laughs…..
Le_lemGo
>
> brianpdailey wrote:
> >
> >
> > What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
> > gender presentation?
>
> There aren't any neutral presentations. Some performers play up to their
> native gender stereotypes others not so strongly. It can be done well or
> otherwise but the quality of a performance doesn't depend on it. There
> are just, traditionally, fewer recognised stage roles for women to choose
> from should they want to adopt one of those standard characters.
And there are much fewer 'balls' jokes women can make....
lemGo
catiecat
You just have to make them about other people's balls ;).
Cate--not particularly proud to sign her name under that post...
catiecat
My act is not very sexy, but I still think it's beautiful. Sexy isn't
really my character or my body type so that's not what I use in my act.
People say that my act is beautiful, they say that it's really feminine,
but I've never heard anyone say it's sexy. Maybe I've stumbled onto--or
created--one of those rare none sexual stage roles you're talking about
but honestly it's just not a quality that I have to sell... I'm not upset
or bothered by other women who do, it's just it's not what I have to offer
when I'm on stage. I have other tools available to me when I'm creating an
act so I use them instead.
Cate--feeling like she's not really added anything to this thread...
--Would anyone who saw my act in Montreal this weekend care to comment on
the sexual or nonsexual nature of my act? As the performer, I don't really
have good perspective.
lynne
>
> And there are much fewer 'balls' jokes women can make....
>
> lemGo
>
to make predictable gags about them.
Lynne
not above making predictable gags about most things
Bekah.Smith
Oh I don't know about that. The "more balls than you" line works really
well coming from a female performer.
Bekah - Always proud to discuss testicles
Bekah.Smith
> >
> > Men are pigs. I'm sure they go off on much worse tangents you don't hear
> > about. They think it's funny and it amuses them in the same sort of way
> > your juggling/unicycling amuses you. It is also revolting but I can't
> > imagine it changing anytime soon.
>
>
> > And all women are a pleasure to be around, barrel of laughs…..
>
>
>
An excellent point...women do/say some pretty nasty things as well.
How about another tangent for this thread: How different is a
predominantly female audience from one that's mostly made up of men? If
your average Joe Schmo likes to see sexy juggling in a performance, what
do women tend to enjoy? Would they want to see a man juggling sexily?
Are they put off by a female whose performance comes off this way, or do
they appreciate it as much as the men do?
Bekah
Little Paul
>
> How about another tangent for this thread: How different is a
> predominantly female audience from one that's mostly made up of men? If
> your average Joe Schmo likes to see sexy juggling in a performance, what
> do women tend to enjoy? Would they want to see a man juggling sexily?
Hmm. Something strange happened then. I skim read that paragraph and
was convinced it contained the phrase "cup of tea" - which on closer
examination - it clearly doesn't.
-Paul
--
paulseward.com - a photo a day for 2008
100jugglers.org - 100 pieces of signed juggling promotional material
krista
I saw your act in Montreal, and it is very beautiful. It's elegant and
powerful, but I didn't see it as
sexual, and it is a terrific act. There is a way to accomplish wonderful
things on stage as a female
performer with all the grace and femininity in the world without putting
sex into it. But then again, I
may not be as good a judge as to what is and isn't sexy to men. I think
some men no matter what will
find a way to make anything sexual if given the opportunity, but I think a
general audience is
intelligent enough to make the distinction between an act that is sexual
and one that isn't.
Little Paul
>
> Just a recently I saw a show where I woman performer got a super great
> reception. She had a nice routine, but I think people were really
> celebrating her in terms of her sexyness. Maybe I was jealous,
> but I realy felt that If I had done her routine, in the way she had done
> it, that it would not have been very well liked at all (by the same audience).
I think for me it hinges on the performers intention.
I think that appearance is an important factor to consider when building
an act. If a woman is "sexy"[1] then I think she'd be a fool not to take
that into account when constructing her act. Likewise if a man is of
large build and has obvious muscles, it would be foolish for him to ignore
that fact when constructing his routine.
So from that point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with
the situation you describe - if the perfomer sets out to convey a "sexy"
performance - and succeeds - marvelous! - Her appearance is part of the
package, part of the routine. If you don't have the body required to
emulate that success, then taking on the rest of the routine is a
waste of time as it wouldn't suit *you*
However
I have seen plenty of performances where the performers body is what
carries the act. I don't think that's the audiences fault, I think
that's the performer being lazy and relying on their body to wow the
audience. These acts do get reasonable responses, but can rarely
carry off a repeat viewing.
I'm as guilty as the next man of the "phwoar!" response to a performer
(albeit to different performers) although I am careful to seperate
the performer from the performance. I like to think I'd give an ugly
performer a standing ovation for a credible performance, but I'm not
likely to give an attractive performer a standing ovation for a poor
performance.
> Fun fact: I have been called 'a faggot' more times when I have been
> juggling than when I have not (even
> if you count junior high-school [that's 11 to 13 yrs or grades 7-8 in the
> u.s.])!
Odd. I've been called many things[2] although to my knowledge "faggot"
isn't one of them. And the only time where a stranger has openly
questioned my sexuality on the street was when some twat in a car
shouted "do you like it pink or brown" as he tried to mount the
pavement to run me over.
I'm just lucky I guess.
-Paul
[1] in a conventional sense that appeals to a wide range of drooling hetros
[2] lets see. bum bandit, chutney ferret, shirt lifter, arse rammer,
fart trapper, shit knocker, rider of the chocolate speedway, uphill
gardener, poof, gayer, knobjockey, queen, starfish trooper, arsetronaut,
helium heels and of course lumberjack.
Bekah.Smith
>
> [2] lets see. bum bandit, chutney ferret, shirt lifter, arse rammer,
> fart trapper, shit knocker, rider of the chocolate speedway, uphill
> gardener, poof, gayer, knobjockey, queen, starfish trooper, arsetronaut,
> helium heels and of course lumberjack.
>
>
Hehehe...these made me giggle almost as much as "private parts."
Bekah.Smith
> really my character or my body type so that's not what I use in my act.
> People say that my act is beautiful, they say that it's really feminine,
> but I've never heard anyone say it's sexy. Maybe I've stumbled onto--or
> created--one of those rare none sexual stage roles you're talking about
> but honestly it's just not a quality that I have to sell... I'm not upset
> or bothered by other women who do, it's just it's not what I have to offer
> when I'm on stage. I have other tools available to me when I'm creating an
> act so I use them instead.
>
>
> Cate--feeling like she's not really added anything to this thread...
>
> --Would anyone who saw my act in Montreal this weekend care to comment on
> the sexual or nonsexual nature of my act? As the performer, I don't really
> have good perspective.
>
I can't comment on your act since I wasn't there to see it, but I do
recall a friend who commented "Those are some sexy handstands!" after
watching one of your YouTube videos. I don't mean for him to seem like a
dirty, perverted pig or anything...if anything he's the polar opposite.
My point is that if your act doesn't come across as "sexy" to the
audience, it's not because the potential isn't there. So the fact that
you can draw the audience's attention away from their instinctive focus on
sex and give them a beautiful display of skill really says something about
your act.
Bekah
jani
> [2] lets see. bum bandit, chutney ferret, shirt lifter, arse rammer,
> fart trapper, shit knocker, rider of the chocolate speedway, uphill
> gardener, poof, gayer, knobjockey, queen, starfish trooper, arsetronaut,
> helium heels and of course lumberjack.
"Arsetronaut" is brilliant. Possibly because in my mind, it is said in
the voice of Clive Tucker (who apparently changed his name to Jed Thomas
later):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCSIwevuF1c
Who said r.j. isn't educational?
jani, ARSE!
lynne
>...I've been called many things[2] although to my knowledge "faggot"
> isn't one of them...
>
> I'm just lucky I guess.
>
> -Paul
Faggot! :P
Not so lucky now eh, sweetie.
Lynne
one of *those* days
Philippe
I'd like to think that the audience will respect the performers. This is
how it works for me anyway. Sometimes you have to win your audience, but
at the end if your attitude is right, then the audience will relax and
enjoy what you are presenting....
Philippe The Juggler
Emman
> --Would anyone who saw my act in Montreal this weekend care to comment on
> the sexual or nonsexual nature of my act? As the performer, I don't really
> have good perspective.
>
It's just damn amazing if you ask me.
Emman
Who saw Cate's act last weekend.
Little Paul
>
> Faggot! :P
Ooh! Yes please, can you pass the gravy?
Guy G
> I'm as guilty as the next man of the "phwoar!" response to a performer
> (albeit to different performers) although I am careful to seperate
> the performer from the performance. I like to think I'd give an ugly
> performer a standing ovation for a credible performance, but I'm not
> likely to give an attractive performer a standing ovation for a poor
> performance.
That of course depends on what you mean by "a standing ovation"...
Guy
Greg Phillips
> --Would anyone who saw my act in Montreal this weekend care to comment on
> the sexual or nonsexual nature of my act? As the performer, I don't really
> have good perspective.
Powerful, graceful, beautiful, but not overtly sexual.
It's all about how you present. You may be a totally hot babe, but that's
not what you're using on stage
in that act: you're using strength, flexibility, balance and grace. That's
what comes across.
Greg
Ewano
>
> Little Paul wrote:
>
> > [2] lets see. bum bandit, chutney ferret, shirt lifter, arse rammer,
> > fart trapper, shit knocker, rider of the chocolate speedway, uphill
> > gardener, poof, gayer, knobjockey, queen, starfish trooper, arsetronaut,
> > helium heels and of course lumberjack.
>
>
> "Arsetronaut" is brilliant.
It also makes me think somohow that LP should have a watch of the Stepz
vid recently posted on r.j
It's not only toptasticly cool, but there is a little something at 5:00
that will really tickle your fancy..
Ewano - resolving to fit the term "turd burglar" into his next
conversation with LP as it appears to be missing from the list..
Scott Seltzer
> What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
> gender presentation?
In the book, "Showmanship for Magicians" by Dariel Fitzkee, he talks about
"Audience Appeals" which he lists as:
music, rhythm, movement, sex appeal, youth, personality, color, comedy,
harmony, romance, sentiment, nostalgia, pointing, timing, surprise,
situation, character, conflict, proper costuming, careful grooming,
physical action, group coordination, precise attack, short turns or
scenes, efficient pacing, punch, careful routining, tireless rehearsal,
special material, grace, effortless skill, surefire material, spectacle,
thrill, emotion, common problems, escape from the humdrum, unity, and
up-to-updatedness.
The point of the book is to try to incorporate as many as possible or at
least understand that magic tricks (and juggling) are only one small part
of the equation of entertaining. I've always felt that I didn't have much
of a chance with "sex appeal" but if I had it, I wouldn't try to play it
down. Why should someone give themselves a handicap rather than take
advantage of whatever they've got? Sure, we wish that everyone would
appreciate us for our skills that took us so long to acquire, but if you
don't get that people will always prefer eating an apple to technical
juggling, then you won't get it the point of the book.
I'd say that the average eating the apple routine would cover at least
twice as many appeals as the typical technical juggling routine. There's a
great lesson to be learned from audience response to eta and I don't think
most people get it.
So, back to the gender issue, since most juggling acts don't display much
sex appeal, by using it, one can make their show that much more unique.
-Scott
Little Paul
> jani wrote:
>>
>> "Arsetronaut" is brilliant.
>
> It also makes me think somohow that LP should have a watch of the Stepz
> vid recently posted on r.j
I'd been holding off watching that video until I'd seen a review from
someone I trust. I can't usually be bothered with juggling videos that
attract single line comments about how awesome the juggling is.
> It's not only toptasticly cool, but there is a little something at 5:00
> that will really tickle your fancy..
I watched it last night, and my immediate thought was "this is chuffin
awesome!" - some really nice juggling in there (I especially liked the
bounce juggling), good music well used, a sense of humor, quality
editing - I couldn't really fault it.
When I hit 5:00 my reaction was "Ewan, you bastard!" followed by a
rummage in my mp3 collection. I'm now wandering around mentally
claiming to be the motherfuckingmonkeymaster.
I'm listening to Blue Jam to try and scare the worm out of my ear,
if that doesn't work I'll resort to kylie or something.
> Ewano - resolving to fit the term "turd burglar" into his next
> conversation with LP as it appears to be missing from the list..
Thanks. I'll add it to the list of "terms I forgot" for the next time
I come to trot out the list[1]
-Paul
[1] along with "player of the pink oboe", "sausage muncher" and
"fairy"
Little Paul
>
> In the book, "Showmanship for Magicians" by Dariel Fitzkee, he talks about
> "Audience Appeals" which he lists as:
This is a marvelous book, and much of the advice it contains applies as
much to juggling as it does magic. It's worth tracking down in you're
at all interested in performance.
I can also recomend "The Trick Brain" - not so much about performing,
more about how to think like a magic inventor (ie far more about creating
effects than it is about performance) - but it's got some interesting
ideas and may be of interest to people who are trying to explore new
areas, props or ideas.
Both books can be hard (expensive!) to obtain in print, but are available
as e-books from http://www.lybrary.com/dariel-fitzkee-m-54.html for
not a lot of money.
-Paul
Scott Seltzer
>
> On 2008-05-08, Scott Seltzer <sc...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > In the book, "Showmanship for Magicians" by Dariel Fitzkee, he talks about
> > "Audience Appeals" which he lists as:
>
> This is a marvelous book, and much of the advice it contains applies as
> much to juggling as it does magic. It's worth tracking down in you're
> at all interested in performance.
Actually, on the same topic, "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for
Conjurers"
by Henning Nelms is much, much better.
I'm generally not a magician but the magic world produces many, many books
on performing, the likes of which there isn't for jugglers. And much of it
is quite relevant to what we do.
Little Paul
> Little Paul wrote:
>>
>> On 2008-05-08, Scott Seltzer <sc...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > In the book, "Showmanship for Magicians" by Dariel Fitzkee, he talks about
>> > "Audience Appeals" which he lists as:
>>
>> This is a marvelous book, and much of the advice it contains applies as
>> much to juggling as it does magic. It's worth tracking down in you're
>> at all interested in performance.
>
> Actually, on the same topic, "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for
> Conjurers" by Henning Nelms is much, much better.
Ooh! I've not read that one, I'll add it to my reading/bookshelf gaps
list. Hmm. I've just found it for under a tenner including shipping.
I can't think of a reason to not just buy a copy now. *clicks link*
> I'm generally not a magician but the magic world produces many, many books
> on performing, the likes of which there isn't for jugglers. And much of it
> is quite relevant to what we do.
Indeed.
I must admit I'm slightly surprised how rarely books of this nature get
mentioned on r.j - and how few aspiring performers seem to seek out this
sort of material. Perhaps that's just because they don't know it exists?
ErinStephens
>
>
> What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
> gender presentation?
>
> discussion on what perspective or experiences some of you might have on
> everybody (particullarly those who
> may have unique experiences or perspectives to share).
>
> reception. She had a nice
> routine, but I think people were really celebrating her in terms of her
> sexyness. Maybe I was jealous,
> but I realy felt that If I had done her routine, in the way she had done
> it, that it would not have been very
> routine, or that there is anything
> wrong with any one acting sexy on stage. But I wonder if audiences are
> missing out on women who may
> not to play it up.
>
> juggling than when I have not (even
> if you count junior high-school [that's 11 to 13 yrs or grades 7-8 in the
> u.s.])!
>
>
As a teenage juggler, I always noticed two genres of female performers
(from the small sample of female performers that I saw, that is). The
first genre was the females who dressed a bit like men (suits, baggy
vests, ect.), had "masculine" characters (I'm not a fan of labling
gender-based behavior, but it's how it came across), and had strong skills
- but had lost the concept of femininity. The other genre were those
women who flaunted there bodies, wore skimpy outfits, and paraded across
the stage - more often than not having moderate to low skill level. It
was frustrating as a girl to see that women were either mirroring male
performers, or flaunting their bodies in order to get attention. I made
it my goal to combine the two genres, in order to be a skilled and
confident feminine juggler.
It is exciting to see so many female performers today that are beautifully
mixing strength and skill with graceful and enchanting femininity (Jen
Slaw, Kati Yla-Hokkala, Francoise Rochais, and Cate Flaherty are a few
that come to mind). Indeed, I get a bit frustrated when I see a woman
juggler performing in a bikini - but I will say that I'd much rather see a
scantily clad woman up on stage juggling - than up on stage being a
juggler's assistant.
- Erin -
fakoriginal
>Indeed, I get a bit frustrated when I see a woman
> juggler performing in a bikini - but I will say that I'd much rather see a
> scantily clad woman up on stage juggling - than up on stage being a
> juggler's assistant.
>
> - Erin -
>
Where do you see these female jugglers in bikinis? Enquiring minds want to
know.
fak - empty intray.
Scott Seltzer
>
> ErinStephens wrote:
> >Indeed, I get a bit frustrated when I see a woman
> > juggler performing in a bikini - but I will say that I'd much rather see a
> > scantily clad woman up on stage juggling - than up on stage being a
> > juggler's assistant.
> >
> > - Erin -
> >
>
> Where do you see these female jugglers in bikinis? Enquiring minds want to
> know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t7PvaRE2QQ
That's the only one I can think of. She's a bit more than an assistant.
-Scott
Guy G
I really loved the comment:
"amazing, so much hard work and practice went into this. I searched this
because 'fudi' in my language means pussy. but i had fun watching this."
Ah, the ways people get into juggling.
Guy
Luke Burrage
>
>
> What do you all think about performers being valued or devalued based on
> gender presentation?
Not sure if this is relevant, but I like hearing the different reactions
to Pola performing in dungarees. About half the men I've talked to say
dungarees are sexy on a girl. The other half, not so much.
Luke
popstar_dave
This season, I will be mostly wearing... Brilliant.
Dave
...cross referencing characters since 1982.
Scott Seltzer
> >> On 2008-05-08, Scott Seltzer <sc...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
> > Actually, on the same topic, "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for
> > Conjurers" by Henning Nelms is much, much better.
>
> Ooh! I've not read that one, I'll add it to my reading/bookshelf gaps
> list. Hmm. I've just found it for under a tenner including shipping.
> I can't think of a reason to not just buy a copy now. *clicks link*
LP, didja get it? What do you think?
Little Paul
> Little Paul wrote:
>> >> On 2008-05-08, Scott Seltzer <sc...@juggler.net.nospam.com> wrote:
>> > Actually, on the same topic, "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for
>> > Conjurers" by Henning Nelms is much, much better.
>>
>> Ooh! I've not read that one, I'll add it to my reading/bookshelf gaps
>> list. Hmm. I've just found it for under a tenner including shipping.
>> I can't think of a reason to not just buy a copy now. *clicks link*
>
> LP, didja get it? What do you think?
Yes I did, and unfortunately it's still in my "to read" pile - although
having spent the last few days in bed, I seem to have cleared most of
the trashy sci-fi novels (and some unspeakably poorly written books by
one of Charlie Dancy's best mates who used to wear a lot of latex and
now lives in a scrapheap - Honestly Rob - Stick to the day job.)
So it can't be far off now.
KooKie
'tis A good one that is. :)
Thank god for youtube comments, often more entertaining than the video
itself!