Evolution of juggling
MonkeyJuggler
I found an interesting bit where he's in South America and is impressing
the locals with his magic such as matches and his compass (unknown to the
locals before you see).
Anyway there's a quote:
"The astonishment at the compass and my other feats in jugglery was to a
certain degree advantageous."
So was Darwin a juggler? Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
Any other historical figures we know juggled?
Have fun.
Alan (aka PhysioMonkey)
--
----== posted via www.jugglingdb.com ==----
Peter Bone
He seems to imply that showing the matched and compass were a form of
"jugglery" so I assume he's using an older definition of the word relating
to a form of trickery or deception.
Pete
AverageJoggler
wrote:
Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
> Any other historical figures we know juggled?
The creation of a juggler is a good example of evolution.
Nearly everyone learns how to juggle three balls at some point, but
the weakest lose interest and quit leaving only those best adapted to
the sport to continue.
Some never make it past this early phase but become brilliant at
juggling the 3-ball cascade pattern.
Others evolve further increasing their numbers ability.
Still other branch off to things like devil sticks, diabolos, cigar
boxes, clubs, etc. creating bizarre creatures that barely resemble
those first 3-ball cascaders.
Yes jugglers evolve.
yermej
> I found an interesting bit where he's in South America and is impressing
> the locals with his magic such as matches and his compass (unknown to the
> locals before you see).
>
> Anyway there's a quote:
> "The astonishment at the compass and my other feats in jugglery was to a
> certain degree advantageous."
>
> So was Darwin a juggler?
I don't have access to the OED anymore, but one web definition was
this:
artful trickery designed to achieve an end; "the senator's
tax program was mere jugglery"
So, probably not. I need to remember to use that word more often. It
sounds nearly criminal. I think it's the 'y' that does it.
> Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
Darwin was a fool. Everyone knows that jugglers, along with nearly
everything else, were intelligently designed.
MonkeyJuggler
> > Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
>
> Darwin was a fool. Everyone knows that jugglers, along with nearly
> everything else, were intelligently designed.
>
"Nearly everything else"? So if "nearly everything" was intelligently
designed then what was the rest? "Stupidly designed"?
Tom Derrick
>
> yermej wrote:
>
> > > Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
> >
> > Darwin was a fool. Everyone knows that jugglers, along with nearly
> > everything else, were intelligently designed.
> >
>
> "Nearly everything else"? So if "nearly everything" was intelligently
> designed then what was the rest? "Stupidly designed"?
>
It's fair to say that the daddy long-legs fits into the latter catagory.
Little Paul
> Anyway there's a quote:
> "The astonishment at the compass and my other feats in jugglery was to a
> certain degree advantageous."
>
> So was Darwin a juggler?
Probaby not. The use of the word "juggling" to describe the throwing and
catching of objects is relatively new. It's use to describe nimble fingured
manipulation and/or deception is a much older use, and it would appear to
be the form that Darwin is using.
> Do jugglers evolve or are jugglers created?
Silly Monkey! Poking at the creationists with a sharp stick on a Friday
afternoon? That doesn't seem fair!
We all know that it's a Monday morning activity.
> Any other historical figures we know juggled?
Probably very few. "Hobby juggling" is an incredibly recent phenomenon,
and probaby didn't exist much (if at all) before the 19th century when
authors of books about magic and parlour games began to include instructions
on how to juggle.
If there are any historical figures who could juggle, I would expect them
to be a subset of those who were interested in magic.
-Paul
--
yermej
wrote:
God Himself was, of course, not intelligently designed, but has always
existed.
I wasn't being serious though. I'm one of those godless heathens who
is okay with having come from monkeys.
Cardiacs
>
> I wasn't being serious though. I'm one of those godless heathens who
> is okay with having come from monkeys.
>
>
Crikey! I had to read that sentence twice!
yermej
wrote:
That's okay. It was stupidly designed.
tast...@gmail.com
of John Conway's "Game of Life" that juggles?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
thanks, Todd
crazy hippy
Jugglery:
1. The art or practice of a juggler; minstrelsy, play; pretended
magic or witchcraft; conjuring, legerdemain.
a1300 Cursor M. 19522 He wroght be-for am gret ferli, And al was wit
his Iugolori [v.r. iugelri]. c1386 CHAUCER Frankl. T. 537 To maken
illusion By swich an apparence or Iogelrye. c1430 Pilgr. Lyf Manhode
IV. xlvii. (1869) 198 Michel he loueth swich organe and swich song and
swich jogelorye. 1552 ABP. HAMILTON Catech. (1884) 49 Quhasaevir usis
wichecraft, Nicromansie, Enchantment, Juglarie. 1830 SCOTT Demonol. 81
Possessed..professionally of some skill in jugglery. 1856 KANE Arct.
Expl. II. xii. 126, I could not detect them in any resort to jugglery
or natural magic. 1858 J. MARTINEAU Stud. Chr. 50 The service appears
little better than a profane sacerdotal jugglery.
2. transf. The playing of tricks likened to those of a juggler;
trickery, deception.
1699 BURNET 39 Art. iv. (1700) 63 They could [not]..pretend that there
was any Deceit or Juglary in them. 1816 SCOTT Antiq. xvii, This is a
mere trick..the rascal had made himself sure of the existence of this
old well..before he played off this mystical piece of jugglery. 1828
J. BALLANTYNE Exam. Hum. Mind III. x, Neither by these denominations,
nor by any other jugglery of words can he alter the nature of the
case. 1838 PRESCOTT Ferd. & Is. (1846) III. xiii. 85 As gross an
example of political jugglery and falsehood.
3. attrib.
1563 WINET Four Scoir Thre Quest. Wks. 1888 I. 87 [If he] did thir
thingis veralie and indeid, or be ane certane jouglarie craft. 1883 G.
H. BOUGHTON in Harper's Mag. Apr. 690/2 It looked like some insane
jugglery practice.
crazy hippy
It seems like from around 1300 or so to "juggle" meant almost
exclusively to "play conjuring tricks, cheat or deceive."
That understanding and usage seems to have persisted well into the mid
1700's and indeed persisted in some cases into the 1800's, although by
the 1800's the idea of juggling as a sort of entertainment was more
widespread.
It is interesting to note that the idea of juggling as something which
entertained seemed to exists during this entire period, it was just
much less common. While as early as 1600 one could "juggle before the
king" without running the risk of coming up a head or two short, the
association between juggling (the word not the act) and witchcraft
predominated the english language for centuries.
It seems like around 1800 or so the word changed in two ways.
1) the idea of a juggler as a jester (i.e. one who entertains) became
much more prominent. this new understanding probably has a lot to do
with the decline in the belief in "witchcraft" so it seems pretty
natural to me. the "wizards" and conjurers who were previously burned
at the stake were beginning to be understood as. . . well not evil,
magic casting beings of a supernatural and terrifying power and just
dudes.
2) instead of using juggling to mean some form of deception or chance
with a decidedly and predetermined evil intent, the term began to mean
simply to change or manipulate.
Not until nearly the turn of the century (around 1890's) was juggling
used to refer to what we in rec.juggling know as "juggling" (To toss
and catch several objects continuously, keeping at least one of them
in the air while handling the others. Also, to toss an object, etc.,
from hand to hand with dexterity; (of two or more persons) to toss an
object, etc., back and forth between them.)
we can see this usage in the 1892 Routlege's Book of Cirucs, "All
Acrobats can juggle. . . It is very difficult to juggle with articles
of various weights at teh same time"
Darwin, who's life spanned the bulk of the 1800's, lived at a time
when the word "juggling" was at its most ephemeral. Probably late in
his life the term would have begun to be applied to prop manipulation,
but the usage in this case of jugglery, as Paul noted, most likely
refereed to the magical conjuring and deception of his compass and
matches.
(if anyone read all of this i will be impressed)
Roo22
> (if anyone read all of this i will be impressed)
>
>
Actually, I suspect most people will read it, long post are one of the
best things about rec.juggling.
Reuben
------
Still wondering what was the longest post on rec.juggling
crazy hippy
wrote:
Long is one thing... But that shit is boring to me--and I wrote it!
Janvantveer
> (if anyone read all of this i will be impressed)
Very interesting actually. I read some stuff even twice.
Andrew John Conway
> Not until nearly the turn of the century (around 1890's) was juggling
> used to refer to what we in rec.juggling know as "juggling" (To toss
> and catch several objects continuously, keeping at least one of them
> in the air while handling the others.
Perhaps the key person responsible for the change in meaning was Ramo
Samee the original "Indian Juggler". Though Samee's act did involve
some sleight of hand and other magic tricks, it was mostly object
manipulation. He was a tremendously popular and influential
entertainer in the UK, who helped to redefine the word "juggling". He
came to England in 1819, and was written about by Hazlitt in the
1820s. See http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003414.html and
http://www.juggling.org/papers/hazlitt/ .
Note this quote from Mayhew's "London Labor and the London Poor,
Volume III" (1861):
''I'm a juggler,' he said, 'but I don't know if that's the right term,
for some people call conjurers jugglers; but it's wrong. When I was in
Ireland they called me a "manulist", and it was a gentleman wrote the
bill out for me. The difference I makes between conjuring and juggling
is, one's deceiving to the eye and the other's pleasing to the eye -
yes, that's it - it's dexterity.'
The whole interview is a wonderful read, if you want to know what the
life of a professional juggler in the 19th Century was like.
http://www.juggling.org/people/interviews/mayhew-juggler.html
Andrew John Conway
> On 2008-01-11, MonkeyJuggler <monkeyjugg...@care2.com.nospam.com> wrote:
> > Any other historical figures we know juggled?
>
According to Authur Lewbel's paper "Research in Juggling History: 'The
Chinese Book of Lie Zi, written during the Warring States Period
(475-221 B.C.) and attributed to Lie Yukou, describes a Lan Zi from
the state of Song in the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 B.C.) that
juggled seven swords [14]. The Tractate Sukkah of the Talmud says that
Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel could, "take eight flaming torches and throw
them in the air, and catch one and throw one and they did not touch
one another." The story "Tain Bo Cuailnge," [15] describes the 5th
century AD Irish hero Cuchulainn juggling nine apples. A few centuries
later Tulchinne, the royal buffoon of king Conaire, is described in
"The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel," as juggling nine swords, nine
silver shields, and nine balls of gold (see [3]). Norse mythology
includes juggling in Snorri Sturluson's (1179? - 1241) Edda [8], where
in the first part (Gylfaginning) he writes, "In the doorway of the
hall, Gylfi saw a man juggling with knives, keeping seven in the air
at a time."'
The full paper is here http://www.juggling.org/papers/history-1/
There is also a long history of recreational juggling in Polynesia.
Juggling that was probably recreational appears on ancient Greek vase
paintings.
juan flores
You are confusing evolution with learning, I presume. What you just
described is how a juggler learns, or her trajectory in learning how
to juggle. You meant, some people don't have the courage to pursue
further than a 3-ball cascade. Sorry to say, but that is not
evolution.
Giraffes evolved long necks through many generations. Evolution
happens in populations as a whole, ot in single individuals.
Giraffes' evolution definitely did not happen in a few years of a
single individual.
my $0.02
Juan
crazy hippy
wow that is great. I am consistently amazed at the number and variety
of period sources that seem to be available to the general public. It
makes research, especially new historical approaches, utterly
engrossing.
I had no idea juggling.org had such material on file. This is very bad
news for my productivity in the near future. I find it very
interesting how comparatively recent the term "juggle" as we know it
is, especially when, as you noted, the actual practice of juggling
seems to be nearly as old as human civilization itself (and in all
probability much older).
The more i think about it the more juggling seems to be perfectly in
synch with our evolution as a species. I think it fills some innate
and species-specific desire and ability.
Much of evolutionary thinking charts the development of man as
beginning with small pre-primate tree dwelling creatures. These
prosimians survived on insects, relying on their ever-developing
capacities for hand-eye coordination, speed and dexterity to track and
capture the fast-moving food.
As the brain power required for this was much greater than, say,
tracking something by smell and hunting it in a pack, these creatures
developed larger brains and nimbler, more refined hands and fingers.
As direct decedents of these creatures, juggling seems to be a very
natural activity for man. Just as a dog finds the most satisfaction
when it can satisfy the fundamental drives of its breed and species (I
watch a lot of dog whisperer) we can see juggling occupying a similar
function for humans.
While obviously there are other activities which engage these same
capacities of our physiology, juggling, it seems to me, is especially
well-suited to our specific talents.
So the next time you're juggling, think of your props as savory savory
insects, just waiting to be gobbled up.
Mmmm. crunchy crunchy exoskeleton.
Cardiacs
>
> crazy hippy wrote:
>
> > (if anyone read all of this i will be impressed)
>
> Very interesting actually. I read some stuff even twice.
>
>
>
>
>
Yeah, I'm just about to make a cup of tea and read it again...for the
tenth time!
crazy hippy
A similar thought crossed my mind, but the more i thought about it the
less certain i found myself. While juggling is unquestionably
something learned, i believe that the idea that different individual
characteristics result in differing development of talents--different
niches if you will--is what this post is aiming at.
Evolution is a fact. There is absolutely no debate (at least among
anyone who is reasonably well informed on the issue) that the species
of earth have evolved. Things are different now than the were in the
past--end of story. The only theoretical part of evolution lies in the
explanation of why and how this evolution has occurred. In the case of
Darwin, the theory offered is "the survival of the fittest."
In the post by Average Joggler the development of different types of
jugglers can indeed be seen as a rough sort of evolution whereby a
juggler's inherent traits and predispositions lead him into a specific
role. Now, were these traits (A) put in a competitive situation
whereby the more fit were more likely to survive and (B) were able to
be passed down genetically than we would see (assuming we hold
Darwin's theory to be true) a more recognizable form of evolution.
The specialization of skills and the development of niches lies at the
heart of evolution. To wit, juggling is, in fact, a good example of
evolution.
AverageJoggler
It was not a case of confusing evolution. I was speaking
metaphorically. Of course jugglers don't actually evolve! As you
said, evolution doesn't happen to any individual during their
lifetime.
And I don't really think evolution applies to humans anymore. We've
short-circuited the system with our ability to intellectually adapt to
our changing environment. With no environmental pressure to effect
the number of kids we have, evolution has no mechanism for affecting
us. At least until a meteor hits the planet or a nuclear holocaust.
john....@gmail.com
> On Jan 11, 10:13 am, Little Paul <use...@lpbk.net> wrote:
>
> > On 2008-01-11, MonkeyJuggler <monkeyjugg...@care2.com.nospam.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> > > Any other historical figures we know juggled?
>
> > Probably very few. "Hobby juggling" is an incredibly recent phenomenon, [...]
>
> According to Authur Lewbel's paper "Research in Juggling History: 'The
> Chinese Book of Lie Zi, written during the Warring States Period
> (475-221 B.C.) and attributed to Lie Yukou, describes a Lan Zi from
> the state of Song in the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 B.C.) that
> juggled seven swords [14]. The Tractate Sukkah of the Talmud says that
> Rabbi Shimon ben Gamaliel could, "take eight flaming torches and throw
> them in the air, and catch one and throw one and they did not touch
> one another." The story "Tain Bo Cuailnge," [15] describes the 5th
> century AD Irish hero Cuchulainn juggling nine apples. A few centuries
> later Tulchinne, the royal buffoon of king Conaire, is described in
> "The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel," as juggling nine swords, nine
> silver shields, and nine balls of gold (see [3]). Norse mythology
> includes juggling in Snorri Sturluson's (1179? - 1241) Edda [8], where
> in the first part (Gylfaginning) he writes, "In the doorway of the
> hall, Gylfi saw a man juggling with knives, keeping seven in the air
> at a time."'
>
>
> There is also a long history of recreational juggling in Polynesia.
> Juggling that was probably recreational appears on ancient Greek vase
> paintings.
Wow, this is fascinating! Just dropped in and am caught by this
incredible exchange...