Blackpowder Legal Question
Ms. Ithaca Colt-Browning
I note that many of the blackpowder importers are selling their guns
direct on the Web, mailorder. All you have to do is pop in your credit
card number and address--and wham! a .44 Walker Colt revolver at your
door!
Many states (Arkansas for one) regard blackpowder guns as fully
equivalent to modern guns as far as purchase, possession, and carry
goes. It is legal to mail order blackpowder guns, BUT--in these states
it's a FELONY to sell a firearm (antique or modern) to: 1) minors; 2)
felons; 3) "mental defectives"...
So, what kind of legal risk are these companies taking? They don't even
have a "disclaimer" sheet which the customer must fill out before
purchasing mail order! (Such as: "I am not a felon, minor, or "mental
defective"!!)
Anybody know the real laws involved? What if a 13 year-old gets hold of
Daddy's credit, borrows Daddy's "possibles bag", loads up, and fires
away!
Do the executives of these corporations get indicted across state
lines??
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Sam Gaylord
Ms. Ithaca Colt-Browning (bro...@IX.NETCOM.COM) wrote:
: I note that many of the blackpowder importers are selling their guns
: direct on the Web, mailorder. All you have to do is pop in your credit
: card number and address--and wham! a .44 Walker Colt revolver at your
: door!
: Many states (Arkansas for one) regard blackpowder guns as fully
: equivalent to modern guns as far as purchase, possession, and carry
: goes. It is legal to mail order blackpowder guns, BUT--in these states
: it's a FELONY to sell a firearm (antique or modern) to: 1) minors; 2)
: felons; 3) "mental defectives"...
: So, what kind of legal risk are these companies taking? They don't even
: have a "disclaimer" sheet which the customer must fill out before
: purchasing mail order! (Such as: "I am not a felon, minor, or "mental
: defective"!!)
: Anybody know the real laws involved? What if a 13 year-old gets hold of
: Daddy's credit, borrows Daddy's "possibles bag", loads up, and fires
: away!
: Do the executives of these corporations get indicted across state
: lines??
I know of an ex-coworker who once ordered one of these type of BP pistols.
He had to install the grips himself. However, because of the assembly
by the purchaser it qualified as a "kit", and was thus shippable.
samg
a.k.a Sam Gaylord (sa...@cs.itc.hp.com)
Hewlett Packard/Colorado Springs
Joseph L Lunenschloss
While in an apparently alarmed state,
"Ms. Ithaca Colt-Browning" <bro...@IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
>I note that many of the blackpowder importers are selling their guns
>direct on the Web, mailorder. All you have to do is pop in your credit
>card number and address--and wham! a .44 Walker Colt revolver at your
>door!
>
>Many states (Arkansas for one) regard blackpowder guns as fully
>equivalent to modern guns as far as purchase, possession, and carry
>goes. It is legal to mail order blackpowder guns, BUT--in these states
>it's a FELONY to sell a firearm (antique or modern) to: 1) minors; 2)
>felons; 3) "mental defectives"...
>
>So, what kind of legal risk are these companies taking? They don't even
>have a "disclaimer" sheet which the customer must fill out before
>purchasing mail order! (Such as: "I am not a felon, minor, or "mental
>defective"!!)
>
>Anybody know the real laws involved? What if a 13 year-old gets hold of
>Daddy's credit, borrows Daddy's "possibles bag", loads up, and fires
>away!
>
I am not going to engage "Ms. Ithaca-Colt-Browning" in
debate...although it is obvious she is worried about this *far* more
than I.
(It has only been 29 years since modern smokeless powder arms,
including WWII surplus anti-tank rifles and assorted 15 shot
semi-automatic pistols could be ordered through the mail in the USA.
And it should be remembered that no credit card was needed...you
needed to only send a postal money order, available to anyone with the
cash, for payment. Perhaps a quick review of crime statistics from
that period, and contrasted against the present is in order... I think
by 1966 or so most ads for mail order guns required a signed statement
to the effect that the purchaser was not prevented by law from
completing the purchase...kinda like the "I'm Over 18" statements now
required by adult sites on the web...and just as easy for an under age
person to attest to.)
But this thread has caught my attention since it includes references
to the fact (?) that now many states have laws that classify black
powder weapons the same as modern weapons. Is this so?
The feds require no BATF Form #4473 when you buy a black powder
weapon...are there states who have their own forms for this purpose?
Let's have a little clarification on this issue, please? What about
those of you in Arkansas?
This news to me...but I haven't bought a black powder arm in 25 years.
joe
P.S> already posted this once...but no bites...hence, the thread
renamed.
The Elitist
Joseph L Lunenschloss wrote:
> (It has only been 29 years since modern smokeless powder arms,
> including WWII surplus anti-tank rifles and assorted 15 shot
> semi-automatic pistols could be ordered through the mail in the USA.
> And it should be remembered that no credit card was needed...you
> needed to only send a postal money order, available to anyone with the
> cash, for payment. Perhaps a quick review of crime statistics from
> that period, and contrasted against the present is in order... I think
> by 1966 or so most ads for mail order guns required a signed statement
> to the effect that the purchaser was not prevented by law from
> completing the purchase...kinda like the "I'm Over 18" statements now
> required by adult sites on the web...and just as easy for an under age
> person to attest to.)
I bought my first centerfire rifle--a Carcano--from Kleins in Chicago in 1963.
I was 15.
I ordered it from an ad (the same one Lee Harvey Oswald ordered from, my gun was
EXACTLY
like his) and it cost me $12.88 plus $3.00 shipping. No statement, no BS about
state
laws, no nothing. I never shot anyone with it, either. I bought a Lee-Enfield
the next
year for $9.00 from a friend and used to ride my bike to the range (I was too
young to
drive in NY) with it on my back. No one turned a hair. Anyone who thinks that
the
availability of guns now is greater than it was 30 years ago is crazy. If in
1963 you
wanted a pistol and didn't have a NY permit, you drove across the George
Washington Bridge
and bought one in NEW JERSEY which required no permits, and brought it home.
Today that
would be a Federal felony.
Frankly, I'd have no fear of any 13 year old who was smart enough to order a
Walker Colt
in the first place. Damned sight more class than a Jennings.
> But this thread has caught my attention since it includes references
> to the fact (?) that now many states have laws that classify black
> powder weapons the same as modern weapons. Is this so?
In Virginia, yes and no. There is no state paperwork of any kind on purchase or
sale,
they are specifically exempted as the law defines an "antique" in the same way
as the Feds
do in the GCA 68. For purposes of carrying and use, they are treated the same
as a modern
gun. Carry an 1860 Army in an open holster to the supermarket, fine. Carry it
under your
coat without a CCW, you are in trouble. But you can buy or sell with no
restrictions,
even if you are a convicted felon. There are restrictions in the game laws on
use
(muzzle-loading only, and small game only).
BTW, the "antiques" provision is also the rule in....the District of Columbia!
That's
right, if you bring a BP revolver into DC you are NOT in violation of the
regulations,
because it's specifically exempted. However, it's subject to the older DC law,
still on
the books, that it has to be registered. Here's the neat trick: the DC cops
will not
register BP handguns, period. They won't bother you for owning one; but carry
it and get
caught and you will be treated the same as anyone with a Glock under his jacket.
Shoot
someone in the house with it and they will bust you for a) not registering it;
and b)
discharging a firearm within city limits. Pretty slick, huh?
The Elitist
PS: There is a clause in the DC regs that says that you may have a firearm
(modern or
antique) in your posession "while engaged in lawful sporting activities within
the
District of Columbia." Figure out what **that** means....it sure isn't hunting
squirrels
in Rock Creek Park, which is too bad, as they have those snazzy black-furred
ones in
abundance.
Joseph L Lunenschloss
The very candid Wile E. Quixote aka,
The Elitist <eli...@BEV.NET> wrote:
>I bought my first centerfire rifle--a Carcano--from Kleins in Chicago in 1963.
> I was 15.
>I ordered it from an ad (the same one Lee Harvey Oswald ordered from, my gun
was
> EXACTLY
>like his) and it cost me $12.88 plus $3.00 shipping. No statement, no BS about
> state
>laws, no nothing. I never shot anyone with it, either.
Wile E.,
I am glad you included that last sentence in your post....we would
hate to see some Oliver Stone wannabe attempting to prove that it was
really you, at age 13, on that grassy knoll in Dallas back in 1963.
Seriously though... I do think it is important for those who are
younger to know that all this hysteria about the availability of
certain guns, or of minors coming in contact with guns, has *NO*
historical credence whatsoever. The simple truth is...the only
correlation between gun availability and high crime rates is one that
runs exactly diametrically opposite for what passes as "conventional
wisdom" on the subject.
Clearly the cause of such social problems as teen age thugs and
killers lies elsewhere.
joe