More Bowhunting questions
saun...@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
about all this equipment.
1. What do the cams as opposed to wheels do for you ? How does this effect
let off ?
2. I was thinking about mail ordering. Is this a wise thing to do ?
Will I have trouble setting it up myself ?
3. What about sights, what do you look for in a good sight ?
4. How do I measure my drawlength?
Thanx
Tracy Saunders
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct8.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
saun...@skitzo.dseg.ti.com writes:
>I also am thinking about getting into bow hunting and have a few questions
>about all this equipment.
> 1. What do the cams as opposed to wheels do for you ? How does this effect
> let off ?
Quite a bit actually. Their effects are generally to increase the speed of
the bow by allowing heavier draw weights at higher percentage let off
(i.e. lower anchor/hold weight). This topic gets very religeous,
real quick, and I am loathe to discuss it in a public forum without
being prepared to write quite a bit of qualifying information into the
posting(s) including diagrams to show the definate integrals of
comparative force draw curves, and specific statistics concerning the
technical characteristics of the bow itself as well as its effect on
arrow flight. This helps get the religeousness out of the discussion.
Remember also, that certain specialized cams also have other side
effects. For instance, certain cams are designed to reduce the brace
height of bow as well as reduce the anchor/hold weight, and therefore
effect draw length and anchor point as well as draw weight and let
off.
There are many examples of manufactureres incorporating different design
elements into their cams to produce various technical bow
characteristics. For instance, the cam on a Martin Onza is designed
to produce different results than the cam on a Golden Eagle Formula
3-D series bow. Discussion of these specifics is beyond the scope of
this posting, and might even violate this newsgroup's charter. I have
made certain recommendations on various suppliers, but am not sure how
specific we can get when expressing opinions about specific
manufacturers, and the quality/characteristics of their equipment.
[Moderator's Note: All discussion about the advantages and
disadvantages of various manufacturers products are allowed. The only
exceptions would be obvious advertising by company personel (all
claims by happy customers are allowed), and intentionally false or
misleading information. tjr]
If a discussion on this topic actually begins, expect a long thread. My
best advice on this matter (and generally for archery equipment as a
whole) is to find several bows (with wheels and cams both) and shoot
both types. I've never failed to find out something interesting about
equipment that I have actually tried even after having done extensive
homework on the matter. A good archery shop will often let you shoot
a bow before you buy it.
> 2. I was thinking about mail ordering. Is this a wise thing to do ?
Extremely wise, if you know what you want, and are sure you've
researched the matter thouroughly. Remember that you'll incur
shipping, handling and insurance charges which are already factored
into the markup on the bow your local dealer offers, so take this into
consideration when calculating your savings. Also remember, if your
state or municipality has a sales tax, you'll save that and possibly
make up for the shipping etc... I'll always buy a bow mail order if
I've shot it and liked it. I save upwards of $20.00/dozen on XX75's
which I mail order, but then I build my own nowadays; cut, insert,
knock, feathers and all.
Please remember; if you've relied heavily on a local archery shop to help
you get started, they can use the business. If they've really helped
you out, and they'll sell you a bow at a fair price, give 'em a shot
at the sale. I will note, though, that chances are good that
Bowhunter's DW, or FS Discount Arrow is going to flogg 'em real bad on
price. Also, small tackle is almost always cheaper. Example; Trophy
Hunter PRO Release from BDW: ~ $20.00; but from a local supplier last
season: >$40.00 [SH*T!] There are exceptions. I just bought this
season's Muzzy's from a local discount house and surplus store for
$19.95 for five. This beats the mail order prices.
> Will I have trouble setting it up myself ?
A qualified yes in answer to this. If you know what you are doing or
have friends who do, this won't be a problem. Your bow should arrive
with some factory tuning already done, but that's not enough. First
of all, the bow's been shipped. God only knows what it's gone
through. The first thing you'll want to check is the draw weight,
tillering and draw length settings. I personally would want my local
shop to help me with this if I were just starting out. Secondly,
you'll want to do some more fine tuning where experienced help will be
very valuable to you. You'll have to get your arrow rest properly
installed, set your knock point, and perhaps adjust cams to your draw
length (if your bow has this feature). There are many, many, many
other adjustments (which generally come under the topic of "fine
tuning") which you will make, not just to your bow, but also to your
arrows, and a component of your launch system that many beginning
archers often neglect; yourself.
You will need help for this. Join your local archery club. Get to
know any area/local archery shops. Read. You might want to start
with a small but densly packed book; Fine Tuning Your Compound Bow by
Larry Wise, available from Bowhunter's Discount Warehouse (E-mail me
for the address if you like, I don't have it here) for about $12.00.
Chuck Adams (an awesome bowhunter) has a more generic book out,
republished every year, called Bowhunter's Digest. There are also
lotsa sports rags.
> 3. What about sights, what do you look for in a good sight ?
> 4. How do I measure my drawlength?
That comes in the next posting. Gotta go for now. Welcome to the
sport! I'll post my follow up shortly.
>
> Thanx
> Tracy Saunders
Shawn Boyd
Neuro...@sctnve.sct.peachnet.edu
>From: saun...@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
>Organization: Texas Instruments Component Test Facility
>
>I also am thinking about getting into bow hunting and have a few questions
>about all this equipment.
> 1. What do the cams as opposed to wheels do for you ? How does this effect
> let off ?
Cams have the effect of producing greater speeds of velocity due to
the "flipping" of the cam over as the string is released. This added
tension produced at the cam top makes the string accelerate faster and
makes the arrow go faster.
The cam also gives reasonably more let off when at full draw. This
can help when you need to hold the bow back to get a better shot.
Make sure the letoff of the bow is within the limitations set by some
states. I think the limit in most states is a 40% letoff (not sure).
Some allow more drop off but then the deer taken may not be eligible
for Pope and Young scoring.
> 2. I was thinking about mail ordering. Is this a wise thing to do ?
> Will I have trouble setting it up myself ?
I dont recommend mail ordering unless you have already seen/shot the
bow you plan to get in real life at a bow shop. The best way to go
about getting a bow in my opinion is to go to some bow shops and have
a professional help you out. Most of them are willing to answer
questions if you are interested in getting a bow. Some of them will
even have indoor shooting ranges right in their shops and will let you
shoot the bow you want (or one of the same type). They can also get
the bow you buy set up for you. If you are a "do-it-your-selfer",
just tell them you want to buy it and tell them you will set it up.
Most of the owners will say sure and pack it up and take your "dough".
> 3. What about sights, what do you look for in a good sight ?
A good site to me needs to look like it will be sturdy and not bend
easily. Again, if you go to a shop, ask the owner if they have some
sights of the type you are looking for and check them out on the bow
itself. Some other good ideas are to get a sight guard (since
accidents happen) that will keep them from being bent while hauling
the bow around and, if you think you will have trouble seeing at
dusk/dawn (you will!) through the peep, the peep hole can be drilled
out with a small drill bit, allowing you too see the sight pins in low
light conditions.
Additionally, watch out for the "pendulum" sights because hunting from
the ground can almost be ruled out with these sights. They are pretty
good from a stand up to 35 yrds, but not reliable at all on the
ground.
> 4. How do I measure my drawlength?
Most hunting shops have a stick that has a ruling on it to determine
your draw length. They will usually make you act like you are
shooting and pull back the stick with your fingers while resting the
stick between the thumb and the index finger on your other hand. You
could probably make one of these sticks by placing taking a rule and
measuring of the inches on the stick. Most bows now have adjustment
settings on the cams for shorter/longer draw lengths as accurate as
1/2 to 1/4 inches. Just get as close as possible.
Ken Pruett
kpr...@sctnve.bitnet
kpr...@sctnve.sct.peachnet.edu
Shawn Boyd
>about all this equipment.
It's really nice to see all of the elevated interest the opening of bow
season has brought in the sport of archery. This is great, gang! By
the way, I hope any lengthy posts to new fellow archers is at least
mitigated by the fact that full disclosure of information is often
very useful to the recipients in these matters, especially newcomers
to the sport who hopefully can be encouraged by complete answers and
recommendations on where to find out more. I haven't forgotten how
confusing the sport can be. Heck it reminds of how confusing it is
every time I shoot! ;^) [Shawn]
> 1. What do the cams as opposed to wheels do for you ? How does this effect
> let off ?
[see previous posting]
> 2. I was thinking about mail ordering. Is this a wise thing to do ?
> Will I have trouble setting it up myself ?
[see previous posting]
> 3. What about sights, what do you look for in a good sight ?
Another hotly debated topic. I'm going to qualify everything I say
here very heavily and try to give a full explanation for why I do what
I do with my sights. I see that your question is very specific, and
addresses the issue of sights as opposed to "aiming" which would bring
the topic of instinctive shooting into play. I shoot instinctive with
my recurve and stick bows, so the following is based only on
experience with sights on bows with trainin' wheels.
Your choice of sights will depend on what you're hunting, where your
hunting it, your tackle in general, and of course your preferences
(and that last one outweighs anything I have to say on the matter).
On my compounds, my back sight is always a hooded peep woven into the
string about an inch and a half to two inches (depending on the bow
and the string length) above my knock point. In all cases, after I've
settled on the peep location in the string, I serve it into the string
with nylon serving to *HOLD IT WHERE I PUT IT* after tuning it into
place. To dial this spot in, I close both eyes, draw and anchor, and
have a buddy note/mark the general location of my dominant eye on the
string, weave the peep in lightly at that spot, and go shoot making
fine adjustments 'til I've got it right. Then I lock it down tight
with serving. A friend just asked me what I meant by "'til you've got
it right." I told him, "when I start hitting the target." He said
that answer was OK. I admit there are other factors -- comfort in the
placement, for instance. I generally go for accuracy, and worry about
the rest by making other adjustments.
My front sights are always fixed pin or cross hair. I've grown very
fond of the latter, and don't like pins much anymore, but can still
shoot 'em in a pinch. Naturally, windage and elevation adjustments
are a must on both types of systems. I keep a red lensed pin light
drilled into the front sight pointed at the pins for illumination at
dawn or dusk or in badly shaded spots. Generally, I recommend four
pins for most types of shooting in this part of the country. One each
for ten, twenty, thirty and forty yards. In Texas, you don't often
shoot a bow at game over forty yards away. Yes, forty yards.
Bowhunters are, and have to be, sneaky rascals (and if this weren't a
public forum, I'd use a stronger word than "rascal"). We like this.
We revel in it. Actually, my lead hunting bow is tuned to eighty
pounds, so my ten and twenty yard pins are one in the same, and my
thirty is close, so I shoot with three pins, ten-twenty, thirty and
forty. For fun, I'll drop in a fifty yard pin for range shooting or
for bunnies, and I must admit that we've got 100+ yard targets on the
range that have turned more than one of my arrows into scuds. That's
OK. I use 'em on bunnies.
In summary; back sight is a peep. It must have a small hood for shots
where the sun is a problem. It must be possible to drill out the peep
hole so that I can open the aperature to see ALL of my pins at once.
It has to have a good groove for locking into the string so that when
I serve it in, it locks in tight. Tight. Adjusting sights while
hunting is a pain. In competition, it's a disaster. The pin, being
on the string, will rotate when you draw. To eliminate this factor, I
use a "rubber band" system which eliminates this problem. I also try
to lock the back sight in so that it rotates into position
automatically as I draw, thus giving double assurance that string
rotation will not be a factor -- if either system fails, the other
will hopefully compensate. Don't forget, when you draw, the string
angles from being parallel with your face and eyes to an angle of
anywhere from twenty to fifty degrees tanget to the plane of your
face. This means your back sight did the same d**n thing. My back
sight is invariably designed to compensate for this, and the best
design I've found is a flat plate-like ovacular shape with the hood
and hole right in the middle. That's hard to visualize from a verbal
description, but I'm ready to bet you'll know it when you see it.
My front sights are fixed, pin or cross-hair with a place in the
holder or pin guard to drill in a dusk light. The adjustments are for
windage and elevation. I use three to four pins adjusted to ten yard
intervals. My preference runs to a three cross-hair setup, dialed in
for distances of ten to forty yards, but with plenty of room for
adjustments up to 100 yards or more. Between pins, I shoot for the
sweet spot -- in other words, I shoot instinctive for distances
between ten yard clicks. I have a front system which taps into a
mount on the handle riser and is removeable and adjustable along the
horizontal plane of the bow. This means I can take the front pin
housing and guard assembly off by removing a handle mounted bolt. I
had my doubts about this at first, but heavy use has tested the
sturdiness of construction to extent where I know longer worry even a
little about the assembly falling apart, or rattling loose and causing
bad shots. I use to get a lot of questions from "unlimited category"
shooters who saw them, and commented that a direct tap into the handle
riser just had to be superior. I wasn't sure, and stuck with the
system to find out. Now a lot of my friends shoot this system too.
This configuration is mandated by my practice, competition and hunting
conditions. I shoot primarily in Texas, usually in heavy brush and
wooded areas consisting primarily of mesquite, salt cedar and live oak
and all kinds of cactus. A far cry from open mountain desert or
alpine forest. I hunt deer, Javelina, wild turkey and sheep (we have
exotics on some of our day leases). My preference runs to still hunts
and stalking, but in Texas you mostly hunt deer from stands. No
flames please. I do this with a bow, not a rifle, and I've got
nothing against those who rifle hunt from tree stands anway. To
practice and compete, I generally shoot on an outdoor walking range
along a 1-1/2 to 2 mile course, shooting lanes that run into sun,
shade or if I'm lucky "kindly lit" conditions depending on the time of
day, the direction of the lane and the terrain and local vegetation.
Second summary; When I'm shooting seriously, my targets are usually
within forty yards, in all light conditions, the latter often very
challenging. The targets are at unmarked distances and are either
live, facsimile animal, or concentric circular bulls-eye. I will
shoot a target at a hundred yards or more for fun and sometimes in
informal competition. I won't shoot at anything living that far away.
The sights on my compounds have got to help me solve problems
presented by these conditions. Yours may not, so please take
everything I've said with multiple grains of salt.
If you're shooting from an elevated stand, look into pendulum sights.
I hate 'em, but some guys swear by 'em. There are also scope sights,
laser (I'm not kidding) sites and illuminated dot sites. There are
range finding sites, bracket sites and slide sites. I haven't used
any of them, and am not qualified to comment. I also suggest looking
at the sights in Bowhunter's DW,
Gander Mountain, FS Discount Arrow and a place called "Sport Shop."
I've got their addresses if you'd like to have them. There's an
amazing array of sights out there. If you have questions, please feel
free to ask. If I don't know I'll be happy to ask around.
> 4. How do I measure my drawlength?
>
Your draw length is the distance between the points on a straight
shaft where the front of the arrow crosses the front of the handle
riser to the point where the back of the arrow knock touches the front
of the string when you are at full draw, anchored down hard and fast,
ready to release.
Some people use what's known as the wall-to-anchor method to determine
this measurement. It's a rough estimate at best. I don't recommend
it, but will send you instructions on how to do it if you need them.
Recommended method; find a good archery shop or club. Talk to someone
who shoots, preferably to someone who's shot for a long time. Most
shops will have a calibrated shaft with a knock and maybe some
feathers on it. This is often in the form of an old flu-flu. There's
a good reason for this. Every once in a while, when measuring draw
length, an archer will be concentrating so hard on anchoring, they'll
release. Flu-flu's don't fly very far.
Generally the calibrations on the shaft are marked in half or quarter
inch increments. Find a bow you can draw comfortably, and in the
presence of your archer friend, draw it. He or she will watch you,
and probably have you draw several times, until satisfied you've found
your natural anchor point. They'll then tell you what the vital
statistic is. I recommend you do this over a period of a couple or
several days, while practice drawing some of the bows you find that
you like. Anchor points on new archers have been known to vary. :-)
I say that with a smile, because this may be the most under stated
comment I've ever made. I promise you, your anchor point's going to
be a little different every time you draw, at least for a while, and
it's best to get these variations down as much as possible before
locking into a draw length.
Other factors include whether you're going to shoot "fingers" or
"release." If you're thinking about release shooting from the get-go,
you'll want to calibrate your draw point with the release, and
without. Releases are a subject all to themselves, and best left for
further discussion in a different posting. Overdraws are a whole
'nother world. Don't include them as a factor in calculating your
true draw length. They will make a difference instead in your shaft
length, which you'll consider when determining shaft wall thickness
and arrow circumference for certain kinds of aluminum alloy arrows.
Again, your true draw length is measured on a bow where the rest is
preferably mounted on the handle riser with a professional or highly
competent amateur taking the readings, and offering any required
coaching, with you using the actual shooting arm (release arm) tackle
you intend to use when you are shooting to kill.
Best of luck in all things to you -- especially archery! Welcome!
> Thanx
> Tracy Saunders
Shawn
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
hunting and competition, I have learned from top notch hunters and
state champions of Pennsylvania. I have read your posting and found it
to be very helpful for the beginning archer. However I do disagree
with some of the statements you have made. I'm not trying to argue the
matter of who is more knowledgeable, but just to try to compare
knowledge and swap ideas.
>For instance, certain cams are designed to reduce the brace height of bow
>as well as reduce the anchor/hold weight, and therefore effect draw length
>and anchor point as well as draw weight and letoff.
Yes, it is true that a cammed bow will have slightly more letoff than
a round wheel bow, but what makes the difference in letoff is the
location of the pin in that wheel or cam. A bow with cams has a faster
return to it thanwheels do and that is why cams were incorperated into
the designs.After all speed is the name of the game for bow
manufacturers. Cams do not change the anchor or draw length of a bow.
People change their anchor only because they realy didn't have one in
the first place.
>You will need help for this. Join your local archery club. Get to know
>any area/local archery shops. Read. ......... etc.
This is the best advice! *BASICS ARE VERY IMPORTANT* Learnig how to
hold a bow, anchor (where and how), aim and release will move you from
a beginner to novice in no time and make the sport more
enjoyable.After which you can learn the tuning of bow.Everyone starts
there, I did and now I shoot for High Country at local and state
shoots.
Thanks for the time.
Dan
__\\\\\\___________________________
=___________________________________>
///////
Shawn Boyd
Tim,
Here's brief follow up to a previous posting. I had some concerns about
creating a newsgroup, and it didn't take much to confirm them.
>
> there is no rec.archery newsgroup. I think there should be one. I'm
> thinking seriously about submitting a call for votes. Care to participate?
>
> Adam, Tracy et al... what do you think?
Uh oh. From, USD:10-6 (Unix Users Manual, Supplementary Documents)...
Creating a new newsgroup is, in general, a very bad idea. Currently there
are so many articles being posted that the USENET is in danger of collapse
as site after site decides to cease to accept and retransmit certain
newsgroups. Furthermore, there is no established procedure for deleting a
newsgroup, so once created, newsgroups tend to stay around. They also tend
to encourage people to think up new newsgroups, and the cycle repeats. Try
to avoid thinking up new newsgroups.
That's enough said. I don't believe I'll get into that mess. Forget I
mentioned it. Later gang.
Shawn
[Moderator's Note: I agree. Rec.hunting is a fairly low-volume
group. We can certainly sqeeze in any archery discussions.
(especially since the moderator is partial to bowhunting) tjr]
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct11.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
>Being an archer for the past few years and persuing the sport in
>hunting and competition, I have learned from top notch hunters and
>state champions of Pennsylvania. I have read your posting and found it
>to be very helpful for the beginning archer. However I do disagree
>with some of the statements you have made. I'm not trying to argue the
>matter of who is more knowledgeable, but just to try to compare
>knowledge and swap ideas.
>
Cool. I can see from the get-go that we'll probably move away from
topics that might or might not apply to the this newsgroup's charter.
This is going to get deep fast. Maybe direct E-mail correspondence
with appropriate re-postings to this group might work. More than that,
there is no rec.archery newsgroup. I think there should be one. I'm
thinking seriously about submitting a call for votes. Care to participate?
Adam, Tracy et al... what do you think?
>
>>For instance, certain cams are designed to reduce the brace height of bow
>>as well as reduce the anchor/hold weight, and therefore effect draw length
>>and anchor point as well as draw weight and letoff.
>
>
>Yes, it is true that a cammed bow will have slightly more letoff than
>a round wheel bow, but what makes the difference in letoff is the
>location of the pin in that wheel or cam. A bow with cams has a faster
>return to it thanwheels do and that is why cams were incorperated into
>the designs.After all speed is the name of the game for bow
>manufacturers.
Oh gosh. I knew this was going to start a thread. There are three basic
dimensions to a force draw curve that I pay attention to.
1) Draw weight. 2) Draw length. 3) Arrow speed at departure.
(Number three is not often dealt with in the popular literature.)
Cams can effect the integral beneath the classic force-draw curve by
1) lengthening the peak interval along the X-axis (draw length) portion
of the curve,
2) raising the peak height along the Y-axis (draw weight) portion of
the curve, and
3) increasing the speed of the arrow off the bow, which is dependent
on both of the above, but which can be governed by factors external
to the classic force draw curve.
There are some excellent studies on the matter. In particular, I have
read a master's thesis from our Mechanical Engineering department which
deals nicely with this.
Do you have a graphics device around? Maybe a Postscript compatible
device or perhaps a Mac. I could say what I just put in writing a
lot better with a picture than with English.
>Cams do not change the anchor or draw length of a bow.
Correct (as far as I know).
>People change their anchor only because they realy didn't have one in
>the first place.
>
I disagree. People can change their anchor points because they
grow stronger or weaker, because they change their draw arm tackle,
or change their shooting style. People who shoot recurves and stick
bows are often frowned at for "face walking" to the point where the
practice is disallowed in certain FITA competitions. Pretty silly.
If you hit the target with the allowed tackle and bow and arrow, it
really doesn't matter where you anchor.
I respect any archer who can shoot well or who wants to shoot well.
Where he or she anchors, doesn't matter if the style is what suits
them, and they hit the target.
>
>>You will need help for this. Join your local archery club. Get to know
>>any area/local archery shops. Read. ......... etc.
>
>
>This is the best advice! *BASICS ARE VERY IMPORTANT* Learnig how to
>hold a bow, anchor (where and how), aim and release will move you from
>a beginner to novice in no time and make the sport more
>enjoyable.
Yes.
>
>Thanks for the time.
>
> Dan
>__\\\\\\___________________________
>=___________________________________>
> ///////
Thank you too for the reply! Let's keep talkin'. As always,
Toxophily, and carry a bent stick!
Shawn
John Kapson
In article <1991Oct14....@doug.cae.wisc.edu> ut-emx!sh...@emx.utexas.edu (Shawn Boyd) writes:
>
>>People change their anchor only because they realy didn't have one in
>>the first place.
>>
>
> I disagree. People can change their anchor points because they
> grow stronger or weaker, because they change their draw arm tackle,
> or change their shooting style. People who shoot recurves and stick
> bows are often frowned at for "face walking" to the point where the
> practice is disallowed in certain FITA competitions. Pretty silly.
> If you hit the target with the allowed tackle and bow and arrow, it
> really doesn't matter where you anchor.
>
> I respect any archer who can shoot well or who wants to shoot well.
> Where he or she anchors, doesn't matter if the style is what suits
> them, and they hit the target.
Could someone explain the term "anchor point" to this complete archery rookie?
email is great if this topic is too basic.
Thanks.
John Kapson kap...@dip.eecs.umich.edu
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
> the first place.
> I disagree. People can change their anchor points because they grow
> stonger or weaker, beacuse they change their draw arm tackle, or change
> their shooting style. People who shoot.....etc..
> I respect any archer who can shoot well or who wants to shoot well.
> Where he or she anchors, doesn't matter if the style is what suits them,
> and they hit the target.
An anchor point MUST continually be the same. If there is a change in
the location of the anchor there will be a modified change where the
arrow hits the target. Take for instance using the corner of your
mouth as your anchor. If you take your index finger and place it at
the corner of your mouth when you are at full draw and shoot 3 or 4
arrows, then the next time you shoot 3 or 4 arrows you place your
middle finger at the corner of your mouth. The results should be
extremely noticable at twenty yard target. I would realy be suprized
if the second group of arrows hit the target. Anchoring is very
important, especially if you use a sight of some kind. "Walking the
string" is what I think you are refurring to, which is used by people
who shoot instinctively.
Aside all this matter I can see you know your physics well and have
taken your response with much admiration. My hat is of to you!
Damn, I'm out of time.
See Ya
Dan
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
specific point or area where an anchor point should be? Will this change
if you switch from fingers to a release? Are you a pro? Can you shoot a
quater of a fence post at 20 yards? All these questions and more waiting
your reply.
High Country Archer
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct15.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu> kap...@dip.eecs.umich.edu (John Kapson) writes:
>
>Could someone explain the term "anchor point" to this complete archery rookie?
>email is great if this topic is too basic.
Not at all too basic. Your anchor point is a place you select on your face
(usually) where your draw arm hand touches your face when you are at full
draw, locked down and ready to release. It really is that simple in terms
of its definition for compound bows. Once you are shooting with a fully
tuned bow, with all the "other" variables dialed in as far as tuning is
concerned, you'll want this point to be very stable, until you change some-
thing which affects your shooting style. This is one of many hotly debated
topics in archery. See Dan's and my previous postings for a fuller discussion
of the topic.
Dan and I are basically in full agreement about draw lengths and anchor points,
with the exception that I think an anchor point can change overnight when you
add or subtract tackle from your rig, or change your style or ability to
draw your bow. I think Dan might agree on this as well. His point about the
point at which you anchor needing to be very stable is well taken by me, but
I qualify the rule of thumb with certain reservations about being too strict
about the matter.
>Thanks.
>
>John Kapson kap...@dip.eecs.umich.edu
Sure. Shawn
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct15.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu> DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>> Where he or she anchors, doesn't matter if the style is what suits them,
>> and they hit the target.
>
>
>An anchor point MUST continually be the same. If there is a change in
>the location of the anchor there will be a modified change where the
>arrow hits the target.
Ceteris paribus, the above statement is true. What this ignores is that
you can change the location of your sites, your site picture, your draw
weight and even arrow size. All of these things, ESPECIALLY a change in
draw weight, may effect (note, I did not say "will effect," I said "may
effect") your anchor point. Two years ago, I altered my shooting style
signifigantly, and purposefully and consciously changed my anchor point.
This change was necessitated by a step from a 70 lb. draw weight to an 80
lb. draw weight on a new bow as well as new sites (both front and back)
and of course a change in arrow size. About this time, I also changed my
draw arm tackle from tab and/or glove to a ball bearing style release.
I've since added a new fork type rest, which makes it possible to tune the
front rest to the knock point to some extent. Beleive me, this not only
allowed me to change my anchor point, it forced the issue. A little later,
I added an overdraw to an older bow to see if I liked 'em, cranked the bow
up a little, and (of course) retillered. This also affected my anchor point.
Several archers I know and respect dogmatically adhered to the notion that
I shouldn't make a change to my anchor point to compensate for these changes.
I try not to make too many absolutist statements about archery, but in this
case I am compelled to say that they were wrong. A massive change in tackle
can easily cause a new anchor point to be more effective than a previous
anchor point. I doesn't HAVE to change your anchor, but if doing so improves
your shooting, it's perfectly acceptable to do so.
>Take for instance using the corner of your mouth as your anchor. If you take
>your index finger and place it at the corner of your mouth when you are at
>full draw and shoot 3 or 4 arrows, then the next time you shoot 3 or 4
>arrows you place your middle finger at the corner of your mouth. The
>results should be extremely noticable at twenty yard target. I would realy
>be suprized if the second group of arrows hit the target. Anchoring is
>very important, especially if you use a sight of some kind.
Agreed, unless of course, you change something else. New archers may not
want to experiment this much. Others may. I know that as I grow in the
sport, I want to feel free to try new techniques, and want to encourage
others to feel free to do so as well.
>"Walking the string" is what I think you are refurring to, which is used
>by people who shoot instinctively.
>
Depends on who you're talking to. My stick bow friends (most of whom also
shoot recurves) will say that "string walking" is a term which some archers
use to refer to the practice of making excessive changes to their knock
point, others use it to mean the same thing as the term "face walking." I
use the terms synonomously, but don't insist on it. In any case, what I
mean by "face walking" is the practice of moving the anchor at full draw
while simulaneously moving the bow arm to compensate for the new anchor.
This, of course, applies to recurves and stick bows. I suppose a Japanese
Yumi could be shot the same way, although those guys invariably anchor
behind the ear. I wouldn't shoot a compound this way, simply because the
draw length on a compound is fixed until you retune it. Naturally, the
draw length of recurves and sticks is not. Certainly, the poundage maxes
out at definate lengths along the FD curve, but you can draw and release
effectively at an interval, not a point, on the X-axis. In other words,
there's wall stop, but not a valley on non-compounds.
I am currently still developing an instinctive style, and don't follow this
practice when I shoot my recurve or my longbow, but I know some awesome
archers who do. I'm not about to walk up to one on the bowhunter range, and
tell him, "Now you stop that. That's wrong!" Not when these guys are
shooting kills and hearts at forty yards and further with a traditional
English longbow or a Martin XL-10.
>Damn, I'm out of time.
>
> See Ya
>
> Dan
Later. Thanks for the postings. Super cool stuff.
Shawn
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct16.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>Maybe you could explain what an anchor point actually is.
Good idea.
There is a somewhat simple answer in a following
posting. I'll post a follow up, which I think will
interest you.
>Is there one specific point or area where an anchor point should be?
>Will this change if you switch from fingers to a release?
It may, it may not. I will not sight in a bow I intend to shoot with
my choice in releases without that release on my draw arm hand because
my anchor point does change when I shoot with a release. This question
has no specific answer in that it depends on the tackle and the archer.
Some archers shoot releases that don't seen to change their anchor point
one bit. Mine does.
I won't kick this dead horse again, but I'll reiterate once more that
an anchor point can change with a change with an archer's ability,
shooting style preferences and most certainly with tackle; especially
when said tackle is a new bow, or a release. I've heard it stressed far
too often that your anchor point is an absolute constant, and that it
simply should not ever vary. I disagree. Strongly.
I will say this. Once I have a bow tuned, I stay tuned to it. Unless
I am prepared to make time consuming adjustments, I leave every variable
I possibly can locked down. One of these VARIABLES is anchor point, which
I keep locked into one spot until I'm prepared to change tackle or shooting
style, at which point I feel perfectly free to change my anchor if it
suits me. I respect the freedom of others to do this or not to as THEY
choose, NOT as I choose.
>Are you a pro?
No, and I have no intention of becoming one. Does this matter
a lot to you?
>Can you shoot a quater of a fence post at 20 yards?
I don't shoot fence posts. I shoot laned targets, with
bail backups in practice. I find this safer than what
some people refer to as wand shooting. However, I'll
answer the question straight, anyway.
I'll also assume you're asking if I can do this consistently.
This question does have a single absolute answer.
Absolutely. Consistently. Everyone can miss, but at 20 yards
this is a gimme.
>All these questions and more waiting your reply.
>
Ask away! :-)
> High Country Archer
Shawn Boyd
Ron Morgan
(re: anchor points)
There is another reason they call it an "anchor" point: it can help
hold your hand still during release, especially if you use a
mechanical release. Let me explain.
I use a Martin Prowler (a fancy version of the Lynx XRG) set at 75
lbs., with Fast Flight strings, Fine Line peep sight, 28" superlight
arrows, and a Cobra wrist-strap-type mechanical release. My anchor
point's location isn't all that critical, since I'm lining up with a
peep anyway, HOWEVER: a solid anchor point helps my accuracy a great
deal by holding my hand steady when I pull the trigger. I draw, then
set the side of my wrist firmly against my jaw, and when I shoot, the
ONLY thing that moves is that trigger finger. It really makes a
difference.
Ron Morgan
osm...@emx.utexas.edu
Shawn Boyd
Here's the follow up I promised. It's lunch time, and I've got about
an hour or so to spend in answer to some of your very good questions.
In article <1991Oct16.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
Question 1:
>Maybe you could explain what an anchor point actually is.
Question 2:
>Is there one specific point or area where an anchor point should be?
Let's take question # 2 first, since I think it will go a long way
toward answering question # 1. The answer is no... NO. There
are different anchors for different kinds of archery. A common target
anchor for recurve shooters (but not exclusively for target recurve)
is under the chin, with the string touching the center of the chin
and nose. Bowhunters often use a higher anchor. I have moved mine
for a new compound I'm tuning, from just in front of the corner of my
mouth to just behind the corner of my mouth, part way to my ear. My nose
is always on the string. I shoot my recurve as a bowhunter would, but a
bit low for some hunters, anchored index finger just below the corner
of my mouth. If I feel like raising this to put my index finger IN
the corner of my mouth to shoot a bunny (usually a downward shot) I'll
certainly do so.
Most FITA (Federation Internationale De Tir A L'Arc) shooters lock down
tight (many for life if possible) into a single anchor to shoot. I don't
blame them one bit. Regulations for the Grand National Meet for the
"Gentlemen's Meeting" consists of two York Rounds. A York round is six
dozen arrows at 100 yards, 4 dozen at 80 and 2 dozen at 60. Metric rounds
have similar demarkations at 90, 70, 50 and 30 metres. The center ring
(often called "the gold") is admittedly large by bowhunting "heart shot"
competition standards. It's 24.4 centimeters in diameter. Still a hard
shot with a recurve at 100 yards, with one pin for a sight -- especially
when a standard round goes 144 shots. If I shot FITA competitions, I'd
think long and hard before I changed my anchor, draw length, bow or any-
thing else for that matter. So for them, it's find a solid anchor
and some strive to find a lifetime anchor. More power to 'em.
Samurai practicioners of "Kyudo" (lit. trans. "the way of the bow") were
in fact very spiritual about their shooting styles, and were also
quite rigid in their rules for anchoring. They chose to shoot a bow
called a "Yumi," and anchored behind their draw arm ear at the point
of their draw arm shoulder! When's the last time you met somebody who shot
like that? Of course, their bows were a little bit different too. They
were seven feet long (true Yumis still are in fact) consisting of six basic
sections: the upper Himezori (or "little curve" -- these bows were reflexed)
the Toriuchi (lit. "bird beater" -- the upper convex curve) the Yazurito
(or the rattan bound arrow pass above the grip) the Nigiri (the grip) the
Teshita (lit. "beneath the hand" -- the lower convex curve) and the lower
Himezori or better, the moto ("lower") Himezori. The Nigiri was less than
halfway up the bow, making the Teshita much smaller than the Toriuchi,
making the bow non-symetrical in appearance along its length. The Samurai
anchored where he did because it suited his tackle, and his training.
Change the tackle, change the training, you may very well change the anchor.
My fondest use for my compounds is to chase Javelina around South Texas.
I also shoot targets with my friends and from time to time compete. I also
buy new bows and add tackle of various kinds to my kit, and have developed
a couple (three actually) anchor points to suit those activities.
I do not shoot in FITA competitions. I do not practice Kyudo. But if I
did, I'd add at least one new anchor point in heartbeat. While I do
encourage the notion that a stable anchor point for a certain style of
shooting with a particular set of tackle is important, I refuse to tell
someone that if they change their anchor point, it's probably because
they never had one. I don't believe that to be true.
>Can you shoot a quater of a fence post at 20 yards?
My previous posting did actually assume you were wand shooting. A quick
reread reveals typos instead. Let's rephrase the above to read:
"Can you shoot a quarter off a fence post at 20 yards?"
Cursory examination alone reveals that the rewrite changes the meaning
of your question. I'll answer that as well.
You are referring to a fairly typical bulls-eye size for certain targets
I often use to tune. Once I've gotten fully adjusted to my equipment
with practice, and have the knock point and rest roughly dialed in, I'll
generally paper tune to really get that knock point and front rest pinging
with the rest of the tackle, and then set my sites. I don't feel like I'm
done tuning until I can consistently make the shot you describe. The
answer is again, an unqualified yes. Absolutely. Consistently.
I don't think I'll post again to this thread, but look forward with
interest to other related posts. Thanks to Dan for some neat questions.
Shawn
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
Sorry I couldn't send you thi reply personally to you but you didn't
leave me an adress on the computer. So you want to know if you can put
an over draw on your old Browning Tracker. Well I haven't been in
achery the length of time that your bow is old but I'm going to assume
that the riser is made of wood. If this is the case then there may
not be a hole through the riser at the height of the arrow rest.
Anyway this is the hole that is needed to mount an overdraw, which use
to provide for the burger button. Lets stop right here for a momment
due to the fact that your going to run into all kinds of flippin'
problems if that riser is made of wood! You will not be able to lock
that over- draw down and this would create some serious problems.
If this is not the case please inform me on the design of your bow.
Thanks as always.
Dan
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
Ok, ok, I guess my typing is not as up to par as my shooting.
Thanks for the correction of the previously posted question, which
realy had a whole new meaning. I don't shoot at fence posts myself and
I guess I'll be a little more careful as to the way I ask or make a
statement.
The discussion of "anchor point" is getting pretty deep and seems as
though there have been some well made points. Atleast well taken by
me. At the present time I shoot only one bow. My Top Gun. So when I
said an anchor point must be constant, it should. Due to this
condition. I do agree completely that this will change to the fact of
shooting more than one bow. However, if an adjustment of an increase
or decrease in draw wieght is made, the compensation to this should be
made with relocating the sights. And I don't mean to put them
somewhere else on the bow, but to raise or lower them.
As I use to shoot two bows, I would set them up as identical as
possible. This allows me to have the same anchor when shooting either
bow. I aslo use a Scott release as someone else has stated. Forgive me
but I can't recall who. A release made a big difference in the
grouping of my arrows and I doubt that I would ever shoot without one
again. If you haven't tried one maybe you should. If your shooting a
bow with a 65 to 75% letoff and you shoot with fingers or a tab, maybe
you want to try a release. I believe this what they are truely
designed for. Anyone really know?
Also does any one shoot smaller than normal fletchings? With a cammed
bow? Does any one know a good method of removig the oil film off of
aluminum arrows for the purpose of flething? Does anyone shoot
copetitively in area or state? If so how many tagets, what kind and
what is your scoring system?
These questions and more!
Talk at ya later.
Dan
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
relocate my anchor and slill see throgh my peep but I hit high to low
depending on that anchor. It is by far one of the most important
issues in accuracy and needs the attention at first to make it a
habit. You should be able to close your eyes, draw the bow, anchor,
open your eyes again and be looking right through the peep at the
sight. Feel that anchor point!
All statements are expressed as opinions and are not intended as the
proper way of doing.
Dan Ellis
Shawn Boyd
>You should be able to close your eyes, draw the bow, anchor,
>open your eyes again and be looking right through the peep at the
>sight. Feel that anchor point!
>
Gosh, I couldn't agree with you more. That's well said. Thanks, Dan.
I recall that you asked about surface conditioners for preparing bare
shafts for fletching. I've never used this stuff, but (as you
probably already know) there's "Prep-Rite" (a company called Bohning
puts it out). The instructions say, "(1) Soak shafts for 5 minutes,
(2) Wash off with tap water, (3) Allow to dry." I've been using
"Ferr-L-Tite" and "Fletch-Tite" from Bohning with good results, and
haven't had to condition my shafts (yet) to get a good stick on the
feathers, but then I haven't used a cleaning solvent to prep the shaft
yet, so for all I know, I'm loosing feathers on soft bales
unnecessarily.
I use an Arizona right helical three fletch jig, and also a borrowed
clamp jig similar to a Martin J-8. I like the hard spun helical the
clamp jig puts on the fletching, but I'm really impressed with how
quickly the Arizona jig will crank out arrows. I can sit down with a
dozen arrows with a football game on TV, and be done with the jig
before the second half. Of course, the fletchings aren't completely
set by then, but the arrows are out the jig and drying by then. Any
hints or experiences you've had fletching arrows would be useful to
hear about.
Shawn
Paul M Taylor
#1 I was shooting recurve and just switched over to compound so I
really can't help you here.
#2 My opinion...DO NOT MAIL ORDER!!.. Since you"re a beginner I
wouldn't recommend it. If you have problems who would you turn to? You
would have to keep sending your stuff back and forth. I see it as a big
hassle.
#3 I like pin sights. I think the fancy ones are all hype. I see
that a bead is easy to place as opposed to a crosshair sight where you
have to have the right angle.
#4 go to an archery shop. and get outfitted. That's the best way.
I found out that I had an abnormally long draw length.(34inch). I would
have been looking for a 32inch draw if I hadn't been sized. If it's not
right your shooting will be messed up. It may be expensive (I paid $230
for everything), but it's worth it.
Hope this helped
Paul
DJE...@psuvm.psu.edu
archery shop for some new equipment. I couldn't do a dozen arrows in a
football season, let alone a football game.
Shawn, as long as we are on the subject of fletching shafts, have you
ever used Flex-Fletch fletchings? I do and I find them very hard to
bond to any shaft. If I didn't like em so much I'd ditch em but they
hold their shape forever and never tear. This is were all my trouble
is.
>............................................Any hints or experiences you've
>had fletching arrows would be useful to hear about.
Ask and ye shall recieve. This is probably the biggest pain in the but
part of archery. I have not found a successful way of fletchig. Trying
to bond a 1 1/2 inch fletching to a shaft seems impossible. I could do
this before I switched to Flex-Fletch type, but the plastic fletchings
never last. If I keep rebonding the same old Flex-Fletch type back on
they will finally stay, but this is very time consuming.
What about nock prefrence?
Well, I finally got some time off to get started in this half over
archery season. Got a couple of scrapes and about 50 rubs in the area.
I'll let ya know after the weekend if I found game or shame.
Thanks as always.
Dan
Shawn Boyd
In article <1991Oct23.0...@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
>Arizona jig ya say. Hmmmmm... I guess its time for me to go the
>archery shop for some new equipment. I couldn't do a dozen arrows in a
>football season, let alone a football game.
>
Ditto here, if it weren't for the Arizona jig I use. This is a baton
shaped device, held in the hand while fletching, and it does three vanes
at once, which is the key to all this. It doesn't put as good a helical
on the feathers, but it does alright. Some people really don't like 'em,
some people really do. They're OK. The price runs about $40.00. Make
your dealer open the bubble wrap and let you fletch and shoot a couple of
arrows before before you buy one. NB -- you'll have to let them dry a
while before you shoot -- I'd say give it about an hour, so don't take
anyone who doesn't like archery to the shop with you. ;^)
Like I say, the glue won't be completely dry after 5 minutes, but it'll be
dry enough to remove the arrow, and start on a new one. Actually, less than
5 minutes, if you put the arrow in front of a fan. One other comment, I use
Fletch-Tite glue -- the fast drying kind, so that's a big factor.
>Shawn, as long as we are on the subject of fletching shafts, have you
>ever used Flex-Fletch fletchings? I do and I find them very hard to
>bond to any shaft. If I didn't like em so much I'd ditch em but they
>hold their shape forever and never tear. This is were all my trouble
>is.
>
I'm sorry I don't know much about plastic vanes. I've always shot feathers.
I'll be sure to ask around. I really do need to get away from feathers...
They're an expensive habit. I tear 'em up, what with soft bales (shoot through)
and bad weather (rain) and sometimes (though not too often) incidental
carelessness.
>
>>............................................Any hints or experiences you've
>>had fletching arrows would be useful to hear about.
>
>
>Ask and ye shall recieve. This is probably the biggest pain in the but
>part of archery. I have not found a successful way of fletchig. Trying
>to bond a 1 1/2 inch fletching to a shaft seems impossible. I could do
>this before I switched to Flex-Fletch type, but the plastic fletchings
>never last. If I keep rebonding the same old Flex-Fletch type back on
>they will finally stay, but this is very time consuming.
>
Wow! 1 1/2 inch fletchings -- built for speed! Cool. Try some abrasive
cleanser on the shaft before you fletch. Some regular powdered tub/potty
cleanser is recommended. Works for me. I don't use any other surface
preparation than that. Be sure you get ALL the powder off (lots of warm
but NOT soapy) water. Some guys use rubbing alchohol for this part of the
operation, and I've be told not to touch the section to be glued after
cleaning it. I do anyway. It doesn't make any difference with my fletching,
but it sure might with the spine surfaces on other kinds of fletching.
>What about nock prefrence?
>
Nirk nocks or Flex-flex pro nocks. I like the inside rings to keep air out
of the nocks when gluing on the pro nocks. Of course, I don't have to be as
careful as a competition shooter, so that's more of a nitpick for me than
for someone who has to shoot tens every time they draw. I'll also shoot plain
old Z nocks or Bjorn nocks for hunting. They seem tougher.
>
>Well, I finally got some time off to get started in this half over
>archery season. Got a couple of scrapes and about 50 rubs in the area.
>I'll let ya know after the weekend if I found game or shame.
>
Cool. Shoot 'em up! Thanks for the info...
Shawn