National Forest Access
Larry Caldwell
motorized vehicle access except on approved roads. Implementation has
been left up to local offices. To find out what is going on near you,
google 'national forest motor <your forest name>'.
If you can't take an ATV to your kill, it's going to make it a lot
harder to get that elk out before it spoils. This move is really
hostile to hunters.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Nick Cramer
> The National Forests have received instructions from DC to shut off any
> motorized vehicle access except on approved roads. Implementation has
> been left up to local offices. To find out what is going on near you,
> google 'national forest motor <your forest name>'.
>
> If you can't take an ATV to your kill, it's going to make it a lot
> harder to get that elk out before it spoils. This move is really
> hostile to hunters.
Sad news, indeed. I used to be able to drive my M37 to Sespe Hot Springs.
Now it's a 14 mile hike. <sigh>
--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
Frank Morris
More hunters need to join the Blue Ribbon Coalition.
Frank X. Morris http://community.webtv.net/Sulkhalil/ChimeandFriends
Donut
<firstnamel...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
>
>If you can't take an ATV to your kill, it's going to make it a lot
>harder to get that elk out before it spoils. This move is really
>hostile to hunters.
Not to all hunters. I think it depends on how you look at it.
To hunters that use ATV's, then yes, it could seem hostile to some of
them, which I assume you count yourself amongst.
Others, me for example, prefer that my "leg work" in getting to a far
off place isn't in vain because someone rode their ATV there. I won't
go so far a distance as to not to be able to retrieve my kill in a
timely manner. We all have limitations, physically, and need to
adjust, especially as we age.
As you say, it will be "a lot" harder for some, but certainly not
impossible. But it will benefit others. You can't please everyone, but
I ask you this, which is easier on the environment, A hunter on foot
or someone on an ATV?
And remember, ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How
did hunters function without them before that?
Don
Larry Caldwell
(Donut) says...
> >harder to get that elk out before it spoils. This move is really
> >hostile to hunters.
>
>
> To hunters that use ATV's, then yes, it could seem hostile to some of
> them, which I assume you count yourself amongst.
>
> Others, me for example, prefer that my "leg work" in getting to a far
> off place isn't in vain because someone rode their ATV there. I won't
> go so far a distance as to not to be able to retrieve my kill in a
> timely manner. We all have limitations, physically, and need to
> adjust, especially as we age.
>
> As you say, it will be "a lot" harder for some, but certainly not
> impossible. But it will benefit others. You can't please everyone, but
> I ask you this, which is easier on the environment, A hunter on foot
> or someone on an ATV?
>
> And remember, ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How
> did hunters function without them before that?
You forget that they have also closed thousands of miles of forest
roads, making millions of acres of national forest functionally off
limits to hunters. They are functionally closing any area not within
half a day's walk of a road to hunting. Even there, getting an elk out
before it spoils would be possible only for the young and physically
fit, while the hunting population continues to age.
Donut
<firstnamel...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
>In article <j3214510fb6buohgd...@4ax.com>, Do...@DONUT.NET
>(Donut) says...
>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:05:16 -0700, Larry Caldwell
>> <firstnamel...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >If you can't take an ATV to your kill, it's going to make it a lot
>> >harder to get that elk out before it spoils. This move is really
>> >hostile to hunters.
>>
>> Not to all hunters. I think it depends on how you look at it.
>>
>> To hunters that use ATV's, then yes, it could seem hostile to some of
>> them, which I assume you count yourself amongst.
>>
>> Others, me for example, prefer that my "leg work" in getting to a far
>> off place isn't in vain because someone rode their ATV there. I won't
>> go so far a distance as to not to be able to retrieve my kill in a
>> timely manner. We all have limitations, physically, and need to
>> adjust, especially as we age.
>>
>> As you say, it will be "a lot" harder for some, but certainly not
>> impossible. But it will benefit others. You can't please everyone, but
>> I ask you this, which is easier on the environment, A hunter on foot
>> or someone on an ATV?
>>
>> And remember, ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How
>> did hunters function without them before that?
>
>You forget that they have also closed thousands of miles of forest
>roads, making millions of acres of national forest functionally off
>limits to hunters. They are functionally closing any area not within
>half a day's walk of a road to hunting. Even there, getting an elk out
>before it spoils would be possible only for the young and physically
>fit, while the hunting population continues to age.
I haven't forgotten anything, well not in this case at least :)
"Functionally off limits" is a very subjective term. You still have
access to those millions of acres, the fact that you can't ride a
motorized vehicle into them doesn't change that. It only changes how
you access them.
Hey, we all get old. We have to accept the fact that we might not be
able to do stuff that we could as youngsters, and limit ourselves
accordingly.
I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
Don
SaPeIsMa
news:j3214510fb6buohgd...@4ax.com...
Some used various 4-legged critters called horses, mules, donkeys, and even
asses
But the asses were often of the 2-legged type.
Alex Vitek
>Some used various 4-legged critters called horses, mules, donkeys,
>and even asses
> But the asses were often of the 2-legged type.
Back in the days before ATV transportation the average hunters
probably took more 2 week trips rather than the now common 2 day
trips. Most of them were more than happy with the methods of
transportation that they had available to them at the time.
Not sure what your second comment refers to.
Alex Vitek <ale...@ix.netcom.com>
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~alexvit/outdoor/amv.htm
Larry Caldwell
(Donut) says...
> I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
> one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
> hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
> before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
By your logic, we could do without all sorts of modern inventions, and
go back to hunting with spears and stone points.
Prior to the ATV, hunting remote areas was the private reserve of the
very wealthy. Your average working Joe couldn't afford to own or hire a
pack train and wrangler. The DC elitists know very well that, if they
don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
millions of acres.
Larry Caldwell
ale...@ix.netcom.com (Alex Vitek) says...
> At 02:14 PM 6/23/2009, SaPeIsMa wrote:
> >Some used various 4-legged critters called horses, mules, donkeys,
> >and even asses
> > But the asses were often of the 2-legged type.
>
> Back in the days before ATV transportation the average hunters
> probably took more 2 week trips rather than the now common 2 day
> trips. Most of them were more than happy with the methods of
> transportation that they had available to them at the time.
>
> Not sure what your second comment refers to.
Slaves. For some people, the Good Old Days (tm) were not all that
great.
JeffH
> I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
> one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
> hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
> before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
Cars, trucks, and tractors is my guess. Less regulations on such
things then, and I know an uncle or two that has a beat-up jeep or
other 4x that wouldn't be street legal, but works great in the woods.
I have to say I don't like yet another restriction thrown at regular
hunters. While such things don't really hinder the affluent who can
afford (or perhaps just willing to afford) hunting packages on private
reserves our go out of state, it's yet another roadblock for me. I've
got to get my ducks in a row and buy some hunting land one of these
days, as my current options suck and keep getting worse.
-Jeff
Steve @ OutdoorFrontiers
> The DC elitists know very well that, if they
> don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
> millions of acres.
And that is the crux of the matter.....
--
Steve Huber
Executive Producer/Editor in Chief
OutdoorFrontiers Multi-Media LLC
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com
Steve
ask
| > one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How
did
| > hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
| > before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
|
and
| go back to hunting with spears and stone points.
|
| Prior to the ATV, hunting remote areas was the private reserve of
the
| very wealthy. Your average working Joe couldn't afford to own or
hire a
| don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
| millions of acres.
|
| For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
| with my first name and last initial.
Only 70 to 80 years ago (the 1930's & 1940's - before WWII), the
majority of Americans were farmers that inherited large tracts of land
from their ancestors. These farms (and many folks living near cities)
still could not afford Henry Ford's new invention (Model T & Model A)
and used horses as the very latest in transportaion.
My wife was born in 1943 (now I'm telling my age). Her father was a
raccoon hunter and used dogs to tree the coons while he and his
friends rode horses to where the dogs had treed the coon. My wife
tells stories of her riding on the back side of her dad's saddle until
she was old enough to ride her own horse. This was during the early
to mid 1950's - not really that long ago!
I suspect that many rural families hunted with pack horses or mules to
transport any fresh kills back to civilization. The country's
dynamics have changed since then. Not nearly as many American
families still possess livestock. ATVs have largely replaced
livestock due to the economic shift in our society. Unfortuneately,
ATVs leave a larger "foot print" than a horse or mule. With the
expansion of our society and the increasing numbers of ATV users, soil
erosion and drainage issues are more prevalent than when horses or
mules were used to transport fresh kills back to the "homestead".
I suspect the larger problem is "tree huggers", the Sierra Club or
other environmentalists concerned with damaging habitat of some
insect, animal or reptile by using ATVs to trample all over the woods.
That's the same reason we have to purchase foreign oil - the
environmentalists have convinced Congress that certain insects or
animals are more important that oil to lubricate our automobiles.
As a side note to all of this, I had the opportunity to accompany 3
other hunters who drew elk tags in New Mexico a couple of years ago.
The national forest land was closed to motorized vehicles. An elk cow
was shot which weighed about 550 lbs. The elk was butchered on the
spot where it fell and everything (except the entrails) was carried
out on a home made cart made from bicycle tires on a straight axle
layered with a wire mesh bottom on the rectangular frame. All 475 lbs
(or so) of the butchered elk cow was removed on the cart and was
pulled about 4,000 feet to where the truck was parked. The whole
operation took about two hours from the time the elk was killed.
Just my 2� on the matter. Peace to all - no intention of inflaming
anyone.
--
Steve Spence
AMSOIL - The "Once A Year" Oil Change
URL: http://synthetic-oil-tech.com/1690163
Email: ams...@charter.net
Me
Larry Caldwell <firstnamel...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
> In article <ka1245dqu7rva16cu...@4ax.com>, Do...@DONUT.NET
> (Donut) says...
>
> > I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
> > one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
> > hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
> > before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
>
> By your logic, we could do without all sorts of modern inventions, and
> go back to hunting with spears and stone points.
>
> Prior to the ATV, hunting remote areas was the private reserve of the
> very wealthy. Your average working Joe couldn't afford to own or hire a
> pack train and wrangler. The DC elitists know very well that, if they
> don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
> millions of acres.
actually it keeps the Weekend Warriors, where they belong, next to the
Road Systems, and leaves the locals to use the backcountry. like they
have for generations.... works for "Me".....
Me one who actually lives, out in the backcountry......
.
Randy
> In article <MPG.24abc02a6510928298a...@news.peaksky.com>,
> Larry Caldwell <firstnamelastinit...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <ka1245dqu7rva16cuitv6udhte0nlna...@4ax.com>, Do...@DONUT.NET
> > (Donut) says...
>
> > > I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
> > > one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
> > > hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
> > > before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
>
> > By your logic, we could do without all sorts of modern inventions, and
> > go back to hunting with spears and stone points.
>
> > Prior to the ATV, hunting remote areas was the private reserve of the
> > very wealthy. Your average working Joe couldn't afford to own or hire a
> > pack train and wrangler. The DC elitists know very well that, if they
> > don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
> > millions of acres.
>
> actually it keeps the Weekend Warriors, where they belong, next to the
> Road Systems, and leaves the locals to use the backcountry. like they
> have for generations.... works for "Me".....
>
> Me one who actually lives, out in the backcountry......
Works for me also.
Now if I could find a way to keep the weekend floaters out of the area
I would be real real happy.
Randy
JeffH
> > Road Systems, and leaves the locals to use the backcountry. like they
> > have for generations.... works for "Me".....
> > Me one who actually lives, out in the backcountry......
> Works for me also.
> Now if I could find a way to keep the weekend floaters out of the area
> I would be real real happy.
So those without direct access (hunting property owners or those with
property that backs into national/state land) should stay away, eh?
Sounds rather elitist to me, but then I'm one of those who lives in
the city and doesn't own hunting property. But I do get the point
about ATV's - it's pretty difficult to separate the difference between
crawling slowly and respectfully through the woods to haul your game
out and ripping through the countryside without regard to the ecology
or hunters. So I guess I'm convinced of the argument against the ATVs.
I just get defensive about restricting my "right" to hunt, since due
to my own circumstances there are plenty of restrictions already. I
also get defensive about grouping all weekend people in the same
category - I'm pretty careful to not step on toes and interfere with
others hunting. I know some locals who are nowhere near as careful,
since they feel it's their right to hunt wherever they want without
permission simply because they are local. But that's only some of
them. It just seems like there is much less and less woods these days.
-Jeff
Donut
<firstnamel...@PEAKSKY.COM> wrote:
>In article <ka1245dqu7rva16cu...@4ax.com>, Do...@DONUT.NET
>(Donut) says...
>
>> I asked two questions before, but will just repeat the second, and ask
>> one more; ATV's are a relatively new machine (30ish years). How did
>> hunters function without them before that? And what did hunters do
>> before those thousands of miles of forest roads were created?
>
>By your logic, we could do without all sorts of modern inventions, and
>go back to hunting with spears and stone points.
You're arguing extremes. We *could* go back to hunting with spears and
stone points, but I've never suggested such a thing, nor would I. Let
me try a little hyperbole myself. By your logic, we should create
*more* roads, and while were at it, they should be paved. Those
"washboard" conditions some gravel roads end up in are really quite
annoying, especially when they cause my beer to spill.
>
>Prior to the ATV, hunting remote areas was the private reserve of the
>very wealthy.
I simply don't agree with this statement. Saying remote area is kind
of relative to your mode of travel I think. What's remote to someone
on foot is probably different to someone on an ATV. ATV's "shrink" the
remote land available. My main point is that if I'm going invest the
time and energy to hike into an area, I'd like to know that I had a
reasonable chance at being the only guy around, and not being passed
up by someone riding in on an ATV. If someone on foot gets there
before me, then so be it. Kind of like when I fish a river and find
someone in my favorite hole, I say "Hi, how's the fishing?" make small
talk and move on.
>Your average working Joe couldn't afford to own or hire a
>pack train and wrangler.
I don't imagine they could, and never suggested any such thing. But I
do imagine they could afford a decent pair of boots. Hey, it worked
for my Grandpa (born 1903), my Dad, and now me.
>The DC elitists know very well that, if they
>don't allow ATV access they will effectively ban hunting access to
>millions of acres.
DC elitists... O.K. that phrase always gives me pause. Whether you
mean Democrats, Republicans, or just government in general, I don't
share your paranoia, then again "Just Because You're Paranoid Doesn't
Mean They're Not Out to Get You." :) I just sincerely hope you're
wrong.
If they don't allow ATV access, it will only ban access to hunters
using ATV's, do you see the difference?
I really only replied to your first note because of this line: "This
move is really hostile to hunters." If you had stated that this move
was hostile to hunters that use ATV's, then that's a whole different
thing. You painted all hunters with too broad a brush, and I didn't
wish to be included.
I think we are just going to have agree to disagree.
Don
BTW, to anyone else reading this, I'm in Oregon where there is tons of
public land, BLM or otherwise. I think Larry is also? Anyway my
opinions are formed/based on my personal experiences with what I know
of my home state.
Randy
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the atv's, etc.
I just get tired of the folks who come out, don't have a clue
and then leave trash everywhere. It does get old going out and
picking up all the beer cans, etc off the sides of the road.
During the summer the locals just stay away from the waterways due
to all the kids there. They've turned everything into a big party and
to hell with the landowners and property rights.
Randy
Me
<7c874c49-ca43-4524...@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
JeffH <jjh...@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
Nobody is "Restricting" your Right to Hunt....You can hunt anywhere you
want that is open to hunting.... this isn't about hunting, it IS about
using Motor Driven Vehicles, on trails and paths that weren't designed
for their use..... If you want to walk, fine... just leave your ATV and
RV at the Trailhead.... Just because it is possible to do a thing
doesn't mean you should.....
Me just another Backcountry Bumpkin.....
.
JeffH
> Nobody is "Restricting" your Right to Hunt....You can hunt anywhere you
> want that is open to hunting.... this isn't about hunting, it IS about
> using Motor Driven Vehicles, on trails and paths that weren't designed
> for their use..... If you want to walk, fine... just leave your ATV and
> RV at the Trailhead.... Just because it is possible to do a thing
> doesn't mean you should.....
FWIW - don't have an ATV (or snowmobile, or boat, or airplane - just a
truck). And reading the thread, I'm sure you saw that after a moment's
consideration, I agree with no ATVs. It just seems that life for an
unethical hunter is so much easier than for the rest. Makes me wonder
why I give a shit about private land owners when almost no one else in
the area seems to. But I do. And will continue to. Just pisses me off
is all. And that, as you stated, has nothing to do with ATVs, so I'm
sorry I drifted off topic.
-Jeff
Me
<1612c3a2-06e6-48ee...@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
JeffH <jjh...@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
Jeff, Well , I do have a couple ATV's, Snowmobiles, a Boat, and an
Airplane... They are transportation, when you live as far out in the
bush, as I do. I drive the ATV's on established Trails, around the Close
Neighborhood, (Close = 10 Sq Miles) during the summer, when visiting
Close Neighbors... and the snowmobiles once the snowpack gets up to
10inches or more.... I used the Boat and Airplane to get around the
Neighborhood, (neighborhood = 100 Sq Miles) and for Town Trips (30
minutes by plane, and 6 hours by boat) when they are required. We don't
have Roads, we have trails. The nearest Road that connects to anywhere
is 300 miles north, and you couldn't walk it, in a month, during the
summer, and it would kill you in the winter. I choose to live this far
out, so that I don't have to deal with "FlatLanders", and "Touristoes",
who want to come to my neighborhood, and think they can tell me how to
live... I do just fine, without all their BS, as do my neighbors, both
two legged, and four legged.... One of the best things about living here
is I can hit the OFF button on the Sat Receiver, and go outside and
listen to the world, and not hear anything but nature... and I do....
often.....
Me living where I choose, far out in the alaskan bush......
.