Sir Anthony Wagner RIP
Simon Kershaw
Today's _daily Telegraph_, London, 10th May 1995, contains a lengthy
obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms
and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald
and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of
Arms has had this century, if not longer.
More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him
might like to sahre them as well.
Requiescat in pace
Simon Kershaw
Simon....@Smallworld.co.uk (work) Cambridge
s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (home) England
Louis Epstein
: I haven't seen a post on this subject yet.
: Requiescat in pace
I hadn't seen a notice on online wires...
I'm cross-posting this to alt.obituaries to spread the news.
I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<in...@londwill.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article: <ABD6B8D7...@kershaw.demon.co.uk> s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (Simon
> Kershaw) writes:
[Heavily Cut}
re Sir Anthony Wagnes.....
as a quick update, I note that in the obituary in todays's "Times" (11/05), it states that Lady
Wagner was made a DBE in 1994.
--
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| Patrick Cracroft-Brennan EMail in...@londwill.demon.co.uk |
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Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
> obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms
> and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald
> and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of
> Arms has had this century, if not longer.
>
> More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him
> might like to sahre them as well.
>
a train driver...I could already blazon a coat of arms at 15 paces...I wanted to
be a herald when I grew up.
I think at first my mother thought I wanted to become a reporter on The Yorkshire
Herald...but she soon got the message and wrote off to the College of Arms to
enquire if this was a suitable carer for her darling younger son.
As it happened, the Officer in Waiting at the College when my mother's letter
arrived was Mr Anthony Wagner CVO, Richmond Herald of Arms. My mother
was most impressed with the reply she got from this exalted sounding
personage who dispensed with a name like any one else and merely signed
his letter with the florish "Richmond", She was also impressed with the signed
copy of Boutell's "Heraldry" that was enclosed with the letter!
I corresponded with Sir Anthony from time-to-time and in 1961 he advised me
to join The Heraldry Society....little was I to know that 27 years later I was to be
made an Honorary Fellow of that Society for services to the Society and to
Heraldry.
Sir Anthony's curriculum vitae makes interesting reading:
Sir Anthony Richard Wagner, KCB 1978, KCVO 1961 (CVO 1953), KStJ, DLitt,
MA Oxon (Balliol College), FSA 1933, Clarenceaux King of Arms since 1978. Joint
Registrar of Court of Chivalry since 1954; Editor, Society of Antiquaries' Dictionary
of British Arms since 1940. Born 6 September 1908, only son of Orlando Henry
Wagner of 90 Queen's Gate, London SW7 and Monica daughter of the late Reverand
George Edward Bell, Vicar of Henley in Arden, Warwickshire. Married 26 February
1953 Gillian Mary Millicent (OBE 1977) eldest daughter of Major Henry Archibald
Roger Graham and Hon Margaret Beatrix third daughter of 1st Baron Roborough; two
sons, one daughter. Educated Eton (King's Scholar); Balliol College, Oxford (Robin Hollway
Scholar; Hon Fellow 1979). Portcullis Pursuivant 1931-1943; Richmond Herald 1943-
1961; Garter Principal King of Arms 1961-1978; Director Heralds' Museum in Tower
of London 1978-1983; Secretary of the Order of the Garter 1952-1961; Registrar of the
College of Arms 1953-1960; Genealogist of the Order of the Bath 1961-1972, and of
the Order of St John 1961-1975; Inspector of Regimental Colours 1961-1977; Knight
Principal, Imprial Society of Knights Bachelor 1962-1983. Served in War Office 1939-
1943; Ministry of Town and Country Planning 1943-1946; Private Secretary to Minister
1944-1945; Secretary (1945-1946), Member (1947-1966) Advisory Committee on
Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest. President of the Chelsea Society
1967-1973 and of the Aldeburgh Society 1970-1983; Member of Council, National
Trust 1953-1974; Trustee National Portrait Gallery 1973-1980; Chairman of the Trustees,
Marc Fitch Fund 1971-1977; Master of the Vintners' Company 1973-1974; Hon Fellow,
Heraldry Society of Canada 1976 and of New Zealand 1985; Vice President of The
Heraldry Society; Member of the Academie Internationale d'Heraldique; Member of
Council of the Harleian Society since 1943.
Sir Anthony's last years were afflicted by blindness. Nevertheless, he still attended at the
College until fairly recently. His rich and varied life is fully descrbed in his
auto-biography "A Herald's World", which was privately published in 1988.
"May his soul rest in peace and light perpetual shine upon him"
Louis Epstein
: In article: <ABD6B8D7...@kershaw.demon.co.uk> s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (Simon
Thanks for the reminiscence...I'm cross-posting it to alt.obituaries for you.
Interesting that he was the shortest-lived Garter King of Arms for a while!
Jim Terzian
Requiescat in pace
- Jim Terzian
J...@ix.netcom.com
Jim Terzian
>
>
>I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
>
This will be a topic of much conversation between us for several
weeks to come, I have no doubt but, for some reason I don't feel like
taking up the tread for a few days.
It will be remembered that in the last two or so years the heraldic
community has lost a distinguished company:
George Drewry Squibb, Norfolk Herald Extraordinary
Major Francis Jones, Wales Herald Extraordinary
Rodney Dennys, Arundel Herald of Arms Extraordinary
Sir George Bellew, Garter Principal King of Arms
Dr. Otfried Neubecker, Director of the German General Roll of Arms
to name but a few.
- Jim Terzian
J...@ix.netcom.com
Craig Martin Levin
>
>Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and
>the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there
>something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it
>possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the
>only ones who continue the practice?
As a matter of fact, most nobles had their own heralds. The books
of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of
the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just
keepers of arms, but also diplomats.
I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm
keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly
good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps
the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
--
Craig Levin Senhor Pedro de Alcazar
Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde
cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm
http://oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu/personal/clevin.html
clem...@bcvms.bc.edu
> In <3or4dp$6...@tzlink.j51.com> lep...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes:
>>
>>
>>I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
>>
>
> This will be a topic of much conversation between us for several
> weeks to come, I have no doubt but, for some reason I don't feel like
> taking up the tread for a few days.
Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and
the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there
something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it
possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the
only ones who continue the practice?
Josh Clement
Boston College
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
> >
> >Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and
> >the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there
> >something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it
> >possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the
> >only ones who continue the practice?
>
> of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of
> the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just
> keepers of arms, but also diplomats.
>
> I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm
> keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly
> good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps
> the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
>
last two remaining peers to maintain a private heraldic establishment.
TheEarl of Erroll is the Lord High Constable of Scotland, the highest
ranking title in Her Majesty's Household for Scotland...as such it makes
a degree of sense why he should still retian a private pursuivant but
as for the Countess of Mar, charming lady though she is, I have no
idea at all (I am acquainted with the present Garioch...if no-one else
knows the reason, I shall ask him!)
Louis Epstein
: In article: <D8H9...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu> cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin) writes:
: > >
: > >Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and
: > >the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there
: > >something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it
: > >possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the
: > >only ones who continue the practice?
: >
: > As a matter of fact, most nobles had their own heralds. The books
: > of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of
: > the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just
: > keepers of arms, but also diplomats.
: >
: > I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm
: > keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly
: > good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps
: > the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
: >
: As is said above, the Earl of Erroll and the Countess of Mar are the
: last two remaining peers to maintain a private heraldic establishment.
: TheEarl of Erroll is the Lord High Constable of Scotland, the highest
: ranking title in Her Majesty's Household for Scotland...as such it makes
: a degree of sense why he should still retian a private pursuivant but
: as for the Countess of Mar, charming lady though she is, I have no
: idea at all (I am acquainted with the present Garioch...if no-one else
: knows the reason, I shall ask him!)
Debrett actually lists THREE peers with their own pursuivants,the third
being the Earl of Crawford,whose Endure Pursuivant is one of his younger
sons.
I would expect that the respective peers' pursuivants can only deal with
arms of those attached to their own peerages or families in some way.
The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the
(senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier
Earldom of Scotland by Descent.The 25th Earl of Crawford's two-volume
history of the Earldom of Mar states that the Crawford precedence is due
to their role at Scottish coronations,which like the office of Constable
held with the Earldom of Erroll was used on the roll before sheer chronology
took over.On the other hand,a letter Lady Mar sent me in 1979 in response
to an enquiry says that Mar is down on the roll because when the Decreet
of Ranking was drawn up in 1606,the then Earl could not find the ancient
charters that were later discovered and it was dated to 1404.
The Earldom of Crawford dates to 1398...that of Sutherland is also clearly
older but behind it by Decreet,though it is not as old as Mar.I do not
know if Lady Sutherland possesses the power to appoint a Strathnaver
Pursuivant.
The Earldom of Mar is known to have existed in early 1115,and direct
descent is traced from the then Earl's immediate successor to the present
Countess.The Mormaer of Mar who married into the title and was killed at
Clontarf in 1014 may also have been an ancestor...in the intervening
generations(Morticus,the first Gillocher) there is only legend.Likewise
the 1014 Mormaer,Donald McEinim McCainnach,has legendary ancestors(Leod's
wife Lair came forth from the Hills of Fairy in the shape of a horse),
but we know nothing of his Mar-heiress wife or her ancestors.
All we can say of this peerage is that it is unique...its existence goes
back as far as any records can be traced,never in a family clearly other
than the one now holding it.It is the lone survivor of the Pictish Righ-
Mair.
Louis Epstein
: In article <3otd8c$a...@tzlink.j51.com> lep...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes:
: >Another link in the institutional memory of the last Coronation is
: >severed...Sir Anthony was Richmond Herald in 1953,David Chesshyre was
: >a 13-year-old in 1953.
: Isn't it Hubert Chesshyre? (I've only met him once and that was some years ago
: so I may have remembered this wrongly.)
David Hubert Boothby Chesshyre.I don't recall WHO'S WHO parenthesizing the
David as not commonly used...perhaps,if he is knighted,he will indicate that
he prefers "Sir Hubert".
: >Sir Walter Verco is now the dean of UK heraldry,I believe...became
: >Secretary to the then Garter King of Arms(Sir Algar Howard) in 1949,
: >is now the Earl Marshal's Secretary...he is 88.
: Dean or doyen? Perhaps the words are synonymous in America though. (I've
: certainly never heard them used as synonyms in the U.K.)
I am being imprecise.Would one title apply to him and the other to Lord
Sinclair?In any case,I believe he is the person presently affiliated with
the College who has been so longest.
Joshua Mittleman
> Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll
> and the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this?
Through the mid-15th century, the primary duty of heralds was running
tournaments. Anyone who hosted a tournament needed heralds. As was noted
elsewhere, heralds also served as diplomats and protocol officers. Heralds
became royal officers in England in the 15th century with the primary duty
of regulating armory, but that did not eliminate other heraldic
occupations and not all heralds were royal heralds.
===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
ccz...@szn1.nott.ac.uk
>Another link in the institutional memory of the last Coronation is
>severed...Sir Anthony was Richmond Herald in 1953,David Chesshyre was
>a 13-year-old in 1953.
Isn't it Hubert Chesshyre? (I've only met him once and that was some years ago
so I may have remembered this wrongly.)
>Sir Walter Verco is now the dean of UK heraldry,I believe...became
>Secretary to the then Garter King of Arms(Sir Algar Howard) in 1949,
>is now the Earl Marshal's Secretary...he is 88.
Dean or doyen? Perhaps the words are synonymous in America though. (I've
certainly never heard them used as synonyms in the U.K.)
J.C. Horton
Jim Terzian
Malmberg) writes:
>Craig Martin Levin (cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) wrote:
>: I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm
>: keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly
>: good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps
>: the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
>
in
>the case of England has, given the right to do so as well to the Kings
of
>Arms, not to the heralds.
>
>Kenric Dana Malmberg
Kenric has it right.
Here's the specific: Within Her Realms and Territories, the
granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative. Her Majesty has
delegated the exercise of that Prerogative to the Lord Lyon in Scotland
(by legislation), the Governor General in Canada (by letters patent),
and the Earl Marshall of England in England and under imperial
authority most everywhere else (by letters patent, though I don't
remember how they phrase the extent of that authority vis-a-vis lands
beyond England).
I understand that three exceptions have gotten folded into the Earl
Marshall's perview, though probably extra-legally. In Manx it appears
that the right to grant arms vests in the Queen's plenipotentiary -
whoever that is (is this one of Prince Charles' honours?). In the
Channel Islands, Garter exercises authority in the right of Guyenne
King of Arms, an office long vacant. And in Northern Ireland, Norroy
and Ulster exercises what remains of the authority of Ulster King of
Arms. None of these areas, as far as I can find, fall within the Earl
Marshall's authority, but because the College operates under the Earl
Marshall, and because the Officers of the College fulfill the heraldic
role in these three places, the Earl Marshall exercises jurisdiction de
facto.
Anyone know any more about this; especially any legal basis for
handling any of these anomolies?
Simon Kershaw
> Here's the specific: Within Her Realms and Territories, the
>granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative. Her Majesty has
>delegated the exercise of that Prerogative to the Lord Lyon in Scotland
>(by legislation), the Governor General in Canada (by letters patent),
>and the Earl Marshall of England in England and under imperial
Actually, Jim, it's slightly more subtle than that. It is to the three
Kings of Arms that the sovereign delegates the granting of arms in
England and Wales. I beleive this is set out in the Letters Patent
elevating each King to his office.
Because of scandal over the abuse of these rights, the Earl Marshal
imposed a rule that they should only make grants with his permission.
Thus one has to petition the EM to grant a warrant to the appropriate
Kings to grant Arms. The EM cannot grant, the Kings must; but they can
only exercise that power with the EM's warrant.
The appropriate Kings are Garter, together with Clarenceux for those
living south of the River Trent, and Norroy (& Ulster) for those north
of the River. Grants to bodies corporate are made by all three Kings.
--
simon
Simon....@Smallworld.co.uk (work)
s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (home)
Jim Terzian
I stand properly corrected.
I've been reading a lot on heraldic authorities lately (rushing to
meet interim project deadlines), and I've read it both ways. This
actually makes the most sense.
This also, then, explains why the prerogatives of the office of
Ulster KOA, not itself included in the College, get curtailed when it
is combined with that of Norroy.
Know anything about the other two cases?
And I think this explains how the EM's imperial authority evolves;
if Garter goes afield, so too must the EM (administration-wise).
- Jim Terzian
J...@ix.netcom.com
By the way, just tried the Electronic Telegraph, and got similar
results. I don't think one Sparc 20 (for all that it is a hot machine)
is going to do it for them.
Kenric D Malmberg
Anton Sherwood
: The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the
: (senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier
And why are there two Earldoms of Mar, anyway?
--
disclaimer: the above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence.
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com
"The Federal Government has become so large and powerful that it poses
an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens."
39% agree (42% of self-identified liberals). -- CNN/Gallup poll
Louis Epstein
: Louis Epstein <lep...@j51.com> says:
: : The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the
: : (senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier
: : Earldom of Scotland by Descent. [deleta including some history of Mar]
: And why are there two Earldoms of Mar, anyway?
It's a legacy of the title's checkered history of dispossession and
restoration,and the fact that it is so old there is no clear document
of the rules for succession(though the Scottish preference has been for
heirs general absent evidence to the contrary).
Donald,the Earl most usually numbered 6th or 10th,had a son Gratney,who
succeeded him c. 1297,and a daughter Isabel,who married Robert the Bruce
while Robert's sister Christian married Gratney.From Isabel descend the
Royal Stuarts,and from Gratney the Earls of Mar since then.
The granddaughter of Gratney's son was forced to marry Alexander Stewart,
an illegitimate son of an illegitimate son of a King who had led bandits
who had killed her previous husband.She was further made to turn over the
Earldom(which she had inherited from her mother) to him for his life,and
made out two charters to this effect;the first,with remainder to Alexander's
heirs,was not ratified by the King,Robert III,while the second,which
reserved the right to Isabel's heirs(at this point the granddaughter of
Gratney's daughter,who had married Sir Thomas Erskine) was ratified.
Isabel died in 1408,her cousin Janet 1413,and Alexander Stewart died
without surviving heirs in 1435.At this point Janet's son Robert,who
had become 1st Lord Erskine,claimed the Earldom and was allowed to
assume it.However,in 1457 his son Thomas was deprived of the Earldom,
the crown citing the UNratified charter passing the succession to
Alexander Stewart's (extinct) heirs,so that it could be conferred anew
on some court favorite.
There were several titular Earls while the legitimate line struggled for
recognition over the next century,and in 1565 Mary Queen of Scots restored
the then Lord Erskine to his ancestors' Earldom.He ended his days as
Regent of Scotland(not the first Earl to be such),and in 1606 his son
was ranked with precedence of 1404(referring to the charters from Isabel
to Alexander) among the earls of Scotland.(Much earlier charters,such as
1115's foundation of Scone Abbey,were found only after the Decreet of
Ranking was compiled).
The Earldom remained in the family until 1716,when the then Earl was
attainted for having commanded the Old Pretender's army at Sheriffmuir.
In 1824 it was restored to his grandson,who was both his heir male(through
his nephew) and his heir general(through his daughter,who had married his
nephew,while his son died childless).
In 1866 HIS grandson died,and the Earldom of Mar passed to his heir
general,his sister's son,while the Earldom of Kellie,a title with a
remainder to "heirs male whomsoever" to which he had established a claim
in 1835 when the younger branch for whom it had been created died out in
the legitimate line,passed to his heir male,a cousin.
However,this new Earl of Kellie,despite the Erskine family having gotten
the Earldom of Mar by marrying an heiress in the first place and despite
all the evidence that it always passed to heirs general,insisted that the
Earldom of Mar should pass to heirs male,and that in 1565 the ancient
Earldom had NOT been restored,and a new one with remainder to heirs male
created.
He died in 1872,but in 1875 a committee of ENGLISH(not Scottish) law lords
issued a flimsily reasoned opinion in favor of his son.A substantial
number of the Scottish peerage was outraged(the aging Earl of Crawford
wrote a two-volume history of the Earldom of Mar to put the legitimate
case),and finally in 1885 a law was passed specifically restoring the
ancient earldom to the heir general,while letting stand the 1875 award
of a putative 1565 earldom to Lord Kellie.