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Message from discussion Foreign Arms in England (was Re: CoA and imperial jurisdiction)
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snelson@slis.sjsu.edu  
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 More options Jan 5 2005, 8:53 pm
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: "snel...@slis.sjsu.edu" <snel...@slis.sjsu.edu>
Date: 5 Jan 2005 17:53:11 -0800
Local: Wed, Jan 5 2005 8:53 pm
Subject: Foreign Arms in England (was Re: CoA and imperial jurisdiction)
M . J. Sayer writes some interesting things about registrations of
foreign arms with the College of Arms in his "English Nobility: The
Gentry, the Heralds and the Continental Context" (Norfolk Heraldry
Society, 1979).  On pages 17-18 Sayer writes "where foreign arms are
recognized in England, they of course rank in England as ensigns of
nobility, even if the family was not noble abroad, an anomaly
reflecting the greater success of the English crown's control over
arms."  A footnote continues: "Sir Anthony Wagner kindly informs me
that 'foreign arms for which the authority of a document from a
Sovereign or heraldic authority can be produced have a head start
towards recognition here over Burgher arms.  Nevertheless, though
acceptance of the document may be the first stage, it has often been
thought necessary that there should be a second stage of confirmation
of the right to use the arms in this country.  One sees that there
could in theory, and sometimes in practice, be a clash with the design
of existing English arms.  At the present day we keep a record entitled
Foreign Arms where such documents are entered when accepted as valid,
but over and above this there needs to be acceptance by Patent or
otherwise for use in England.' (30 March 1978)...Grants by foreign
authorities to persons not within their jurisdictions, i.e. to
nationals of a third country, are not accepted for registration."

The College of Arms has at times contacted foreign governments to
ascertain the status of their native heraldic authorities.  On 4 May
1981 Michael J. Robinson of the British Embassy in Madrid, Spain, wrote
to John Brooke-Little, then Norroy and Ulster King of Arms: "In his
letter of 3 February the Ambassador promised to write again as soon as
we had been able to consult the Ministry of Justice in connection with
your enquiry of 26 January about the validity of the 'grants' of
arms made by the last remaining Spanish Chronicler King of Arms.  I am
now writing to say, in the Ambassador's temporary absence on official
tour, that the Ministry have confirmed to us that your understanding of
the position is entirely correct and that (as they stated in their
document dated 4 May 1979) all that the Spanish authorities (ie the
Ministry of Justice) do in respect of Sr. Cadenas' 'grants' is to
authenticate his signature not his action.  In confirming the above,
the Ministry have again stressed to us that they neither approve,
recognise nor attach any official value to Sr. Cadenas' 'grants';
and therefore the question in your paragraph 5 of their having to
approve or acknowledge the Chronicler King of Arms' actions does not
arise.  They have explained in this connection that under the terms of
the Decree of 13 April 1951 and Sr. Cadenas' own Letter of
Appointment as Chronicler King of Arms, his 'grants' are privately
issued documents with no official validity whatsoever.  No official
endorsement is given to his 'grants' of arms by any Spanish
authority, either before or after issue.  I regret the length of length
of time it has taken us to extract this information from the Ministry.
But I think the Ministry's position has now been made abundantly
clear and trust that the information will be of use to you in
connection with your dealings with your colleagues in Scotland and
Ireland..."

On 31 March 1982 C. T. Humphrey of the British Embassy in Madrid wrote
to Brooke-Little: "We have as requested consulted the Spanish
Ministry of Justice about the validity of the Certificate of Arms
issued to Dona Elva Sanchez y Lopez, of Nuevo Leon, Mexico, by the
Spanish Cronista Rey de Armas.  They have confirmed that even if Senora
Sanchez were of Spanish origin, which they are unable to verify, the
Certificate has no official value whatsoever.  They have pointed out in
this connection that, as stated in the first paragraph, line six, of
the document enclosed with your letter under reference the Senora's
'arms' are of new creation, so that Sr Cadenas was not certifying
any ancient arms.  The Ministry of Justice have again been most
emphatic to us about the private nature of Sr Cadenas' 'grants'
of arms in the light of their earlier statements (Michael Robinson's
letter of 4 May 1981), which implies that they have no official
validity and that none of them carries the endorsement of the Spanish
authorities, still less that of the Spanish Crown."

These findings are, of course, correct.  The Spanish Ministry of
Justice hasn't approved, recognized nor attach any official value to
Spanish armorial certificates since July 1915 when King Alfonso XIII
issued a royal decree that, among other things, made the heralds
personally responsible for the accuracy of these certificates.  The
Ministry of Justice distanced itself from these certificates in order
to avoid the embarrassment experienced in 1913 when a Spanish herald,
Luis Vilar y Vilar, certified the false arms and title of a French
citizen.  A Ministerial decree of 13 April 1951 also put an end to the
Spanish heralds' status as court functionaries, abolished their
government salaries, ended their role as public servants and
established armorial certificates as private documents.  The above
misconception that Spanish armorial certificates pretend to be grants,
however, is groundless and betrays a lack of understanding about the
history of Spanish heraldry.  The College of Arms may very well
consider registering foreign arms from Spain granted by the King of
Spain, such as these arms granted in 1992 to the Count de Latores:

http://heraldry.freeservers.com/Grant.jpg

-Sebastian Nelson

Jonathan Makepeace wrote:
> I recently wrote to the College of Arms about registering my South
> African arms with them and found their answer very interesting.

> They characterized my South African badge and coat of arms as
"foreign"
> (not Commonwealth) arms and informed me that such arms are only
> registered if there is a need for them to be borne in Britain,
> presumeably excluding Scotland.  This strongly implies that the
College
> of Arms claims no jurisdiction outside of Britain, not even in New
> Zealand, a country which has explicitly recognized their
jurisdiction.
> It also raises the question of whether the College of Arms would
> register truly foreign arms from, say, Spain.  What about arms from
the
> Republic of Ireland?


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