John Howell of Islick, Amroth, Wales and of Abenhall Gloucestershire
Vivien
John Howell of Islick, Amroth and of Abenhall, Gloucester bears the
coat of arms, Sable a lion rampant regardant Argent, according to
Francis Jones in "Historic Houses of Pembrokshire". I have also found
other souces attributing the same coat of arms to this same John
Howell.
These arms are also attributed to Hywel Felyn (the Yellow - blonde?)
ap Gruffudd ab Ifor Bach of Senghenydd (who died before 1170) ap
Meurig Fychan ( "The Development of Welsh Heraldry" by Michael Powell
Siddons, Wales Herald of Arms).
My question.
What is the likely hood of John Howell of Islick/Abenhall having
descended from Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd........ ie if I persue this
line from either direction what are the chances of meeting in the
middle?
Cheers
Vivien
grahamm...@btinternet.com
Very high. The Welsh gentry inter-married to an incredible extent, so
that every family seems to be descended from every other family
(almost). Or I should say that the chances of a descent are very high
(possibly in the female line, since the Welsh often adopted arms of
ancestors in the female line) but the chances of proving it may be
less. You could be left with a tantalising gap of one or two
generations, where you can guess the link (and even identify the
individuals) but cannot prove it - but that's genealogy. However, for
every link you can't prove, there are generally ten that you can (to
Welsh princely families). At least, that is my experience.
Vivien
Thank you.
I have been looking at the Bartrum Welsh Genealogies according to the
LDS site and have not been able find the ancestry of John Howell nor
have I been able to move forward from Ifor Bach to connect the two but
then I have been concentrating on the male lines. Now perhaps I will
have more luck.
Second question hoping you are familiar with Bartrum.
He seems to move forward in the descents until he runs into an
illegitimat line wherein he stops. I am aware that no children in
Wales in the very early times were all considered legitimate. Did this
change with the defeat of the Princes of Wales at the hands of the
English crown or could there be another reason which I am missing?
Cheers
Vivien
Vivien
Ooops
Meant to say that all children in the time of Ifor Bach were
considered legitimate
Vivien
Turenne
later Kingdom of Ceredigion is Sable a Lion rampant regardant Or.
Further to Graham's point, have you seen the 323 quarterings of the
Lloyd of Stockton coat of arms?
Richard Lichten
Vivien
No I have not. Where might this been seen? ( on the web of course as I
am across the pond)
Turenne
somewhere). Email me and I'll send you a scan. I'm off to Cyprus
tomorrow for a few days but'll respond on my return. Hang on - I've
found it! There are Llewellyn's arms, Gwaethfoed's arms and a load of
others.
Richard L
Joseph McMillan
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2610/stockton.jpg
Many of the quarterings are based on fictitious or at best unproven
descent from people alleged to have borne arms at a period centuries
before heraldry existed in Wales or anywhere else. This marshalling
was used by Oswald Barron to ridicule the pretense that being recorded
at the College of Arms was sufficient to establish the authenticity of
a coat of arms.
Joseph McMillan
grahamm...@btinternet.com
Yes, but the fact that they did not bear arms at that time doesn't
mean either that the ancestors didn't exist (they usually did) or that
the armiger is not descended from them (he usually is). If you want to
have a coat of arms showing descents from such people, I can see no
harm in devising arms to represent them. Why not? Or rather, what else
can you do?
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<grahamm...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 4:27 pm, Vivien <vivien.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 4:24 pm, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Strangely enough; the arms of Gwaethfoed, Prince of Ceredigion and
> > > later Kingdom of Ceredigion is Sable a Lion rampant regardant Or.
> >
> > > Further to Graham's point, have you seen the 323 quarterings of
> > > the Lloyd of Stockton coat of arms?
> >
> > > Richard Lichten
> >
> > No I have not. Where might this been seen? ( on the web of course as
> > I am across the pond)
>
> http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2610/stockton.jpg
It is also in Woodcock and Robinson's "Oxford Guide to Heraldry", betw.
pp. 114-5.
> Many of the quarterings are based on fictitious or at best unproven
> descent from people alleged to have borne arms at a period centuries
> before heraldry existed in Wales or anywhere else.
This appears to be a standard practice, to devise arms for people long
since dead. It certainly is within the realm of the English armorial
practices. Even today one can get arms granted for one's deceased
parents or grandparents.
> This marshalling was used by Oswald Barron to ridicule the pretense
> that being recorded at the College of Arms was sufficient to establish
> the authenticity of a coat of arms.
The other problems are where the College allows quarterings from wives
who were illegitimate, or who had brothers with heirs (to this day,
even) or who were not even descended from the supposed father.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/