Austro-Hungarian armorial on matrimonial cutlery
fatso
Could any kind soul look upon the above composite Armorial and advise me,
who it might belong to? It comes from the set of cutlery recently
imported by me
from the United States. The hallmarks do indicate that it is from
1872-1922 era.
The Arms are double-crested which seems to me to indicate the
matrimonial union
of two Houses. The right hand-side crest does seem to consist of the
Hussars wings
-Polish connection? The Arms shield does seem to be split into two. I do
recognise
a half of an Austrian Double headed Eagle, then a hand holding something
I do not recognise.
Upper right hand field- two ducks chasing each other?
Any comments most appreciated.
fatso
Turenne
The sinister crest, as you say, are probably wings though not
neccessarily Polish. Wings of this type regularly appeared in European
heraldry. The dexter crest looks to me like buffalo horns. The 1st and
3rd quarters are somewhat indistinct, the hand appears to be holding
flowers of some sort. If you could provide a more distict image it
would help...
Richard Lichten
Nathaniel Taylor
<de262d7a-bf9b-4102...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Turenne <rick.l...@virgin.net> wrote:
Are those not arrows in 1 & 4? And 2 & 3 look to me like the same thing
(not 2 ducks chasing one another): half a double headed eagle on a field
semy of something. The fact that the charges are mirror-images between
2 & 3 and 1 & 4 show what I would presume to be heraldically inexpert
work. And is this whole thing not stamped rather than engraved?
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Turenne
> In article
> <de262d7a-bf9b-4102-ba71-90f517d24...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nat Taylor wrote:
Sorry, I meant 1 & 4; my brain's gone! I thought of arrows at first
but the shafts seem bent, hence the possibility that they were
flowers.
Richard
Nathaniel Taylor
<b803f44e-1619-45cd...@b41g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Turenne <rick.l...@virgin.net> wrote:
They do look a bit limp for arrows, but then again the workmanship of
the arms seems iffy in other respect; and arrow are the obvious thing
you see held by an arm in that position. What do you think of 2 and 3?
A better photo would reveal all, I suppose.
fatso
> They do look a bit limp for arrows, but then again the workmanship of
> the arms seems iffy in other respect; and arrow are the obvious
> thing you see held by an arm in that position. What do you think of
> 2 and 3?
>
> A better photo would reveal all, I suppose.
>
> Nat Taylor a genealogist's sketchbook:
> http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
There is a technical limit to super-macro photography and I cannot use the flash light
but good natural light only.
Just to train your eye I would like to offer for consideration another Armorial, this time
belonging to the known personage of major standing: Duke Wilhelm VIII of Brunswick-Luneburg,
uncle of Queen Victoria.
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/Armorial.jpg
The cutlery has been made in Vienna in 1864, Armorial probably engraved meticulously upon the
matrix and then stamped upon each piece. The Royal connotation is proved by the presence of
both Order of Heinrich der Lowe(Henry the Lion, The House Order of Brunswick) and Order of the Garter
with its famous french sentence- Shame upon Him who thinks badly about it- quote from memory in english.)
Wikipedia does quote the above royal Person as being in the receipt of such distiction from Queen Victoria.
You may have to use another view of the Armorial and see it as jpg format in some reader, and enlarge it to verify my claim.
The present task does leave me baffled and in need of help, though.
fatso
fatso
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/BrunswickCoatofArms.gif
f
fatso
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=coinjointArms.jpg
<http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=coinjointArms.jpg>
Much better rendition of conjoint matrimonial Arms.
The hand holding things , Fields 1&4, appears to grasp some flowers- and
I have seen this image
in one of hungarian provinces.
The "ducks chasing each other" Field 2, turned out to be another half
od double headed eagle.
This time it is plumper and its wing less aggresively spread. To me it
smacks of some Balkan hint.
Any ideas who might that be?
fatso
fatso
The old french ditty: "Honi soit qui mal y pense" clearly visible.
Was he really some sort of uncle to the Old Vicky?
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=BrunswickArms.jpg
<http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=BrunswickArms.jpg>
fatso
Don Aitken
wrote:
All male members of the House of Brunswick/Hanover were "duke of
Brunswick and Luneburg"; it doesn't necessarily mean that they ruled
any territory. There were a couple of hundred of them, of whom several
included Wilhelm among their names, but I don't see any who could
reasonably be referred to as "Wilhelm VIII".
The motto is that of the Order of the Garter, and should be used only
by holders of that Order, of whom there is a complete list at
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/garterlist.htm
The only likely one seems to be:
"671 (inv 1831) Augustus William Maximilian Frederick Lewis, reigning
Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel."
He was usually known as Wilhelm. He was only a very distant relation
of Victoria; his branch of the House became extinct on his death in
1884, which suggests that the plate must have been made for him
between 1831 and 1884.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
fatso
> The only likely one seems to be:
>
> "671 (inv 1831) Augustus William Maximilian Frederick Lewis, reigning
> Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel."
>
> He was usually known as Wilhelm. He was only a very distant relation
> of Victoria; his branch of the House became extinct on his death in
> 1884, which suggests that the plate must have been made for him
> between 1831 and 1884.
>
>
That's the guy!
In fact this elaborate plaque placed on every piece of his cutlery was
made in 1864
as witnessed by silversmiths hallmarks.
It grieves me that he could enjoy his eating implements for 20 yrs only.
He certainly did take great care of them for they look to be in perfect
shape.
Unfortunately the old boy was not so careful with his flunkies- some
pieces went
missing, probably flogged off at his local pawnbrokers. The surviving
remnants
of this splendid collection winged their way 50 yrs ago to Texas, via
London Silver
Vault. Now the credit crunch flushed them out into US eBay-and lo and
behold! -
I, the impoverished East european member of minor gentry will use them
this Xmas.
Thank you Your Serene Highness, will raise the toast to ya!
fatso
Derek Howard
> fatso wrote:
>
> http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
> <http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...>
>
> Much better rendition of conjoint matrimonial Arms.
> The hand holding things , Fields 1&4, appears to grasp some flowers- and
> I have seen this image
> in one of hungarian provinces.
> The "ducks chasing each other" Field 2, turned out to be another half
> od double headed eagle.
> This time it is plumper and its wing less aggresively spread. To me it
> smacks of some Balkan hint.
> Any ideas who might that be?
>
> fatso
To me it looks Germanic. The dextrochère and a sinisterchère holding
three flowers or trefoils though is difficult to identify.
There is a family - Negelein - with a dextrochère holindg three
flowers; with a crest of an arm armoured (not embowed) holding three
flowers between two buffallo horns. The crest may well have been
represented at a small scale as illustrated in your photo. (O
Neubecker: Grosses Wappen-Bilder-Lexikon, 1992, 174. Neubecker
identifies the origin of his illustration of fthe Negelein arms as
Bürgerliche Siebmacher, Abtlg 8, tafel 74).
No guarantee that this is the right family at all, more research would
be needed, but it does suggest the style and subject matter exist in
the Germanic context. Quite a few German arms are quartered with
dimidiated eagles in this way which may be an augmentation.
Derek Howard
Don Aitken
wrote:
>Don Aitken wrote:
>> The only likely one seems to be:
>>
>> "671 (inv 1831) Augustus William Maximilian Frederick Lewis, reigning
>> Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel."
>>
>> He was usually known as Wilhelm. He was only a very distant relation
>> of Victoria; his branch of the House became extinct on his death in
>> 1884, which suggests that the plate must have been made for him
>> between 1831 and 1884.
>
>That's the guy! In fact this elaborate plaque placed on every
>piece of his cutlery was made in 1864 as witnessed by
>silversmiths hallmarks. It grieves me that he could enjoy
>his eating implements for 20 yrs only. He certainly did take
>great care of them for they look to be in perfect shape.
>Unfortunately the old boy was not so careful with his
>flunkies - some pieces went missing, probably flogged
>off at his local pawnbrokers. The surviving remnants
>of this splendid collection winged their way 50 yrs
>ago to Texas, via London Silver Vault. Now the credit crunch
>flushed them out into US eBay-and lo and behold! -
>I, the impoverished East european member of minor
>gentry will use them this Xmas.
>Thank you Your Serene Highness, will raise the toast to ya!
>
A fsecinating acquisition!
It would be interesting to know what happened to the Duke's personal
property on his death - there was no obvious heir, the nearest
relatives being an illegitimate sister and and illegitimate niece. The
closest legitimate possibilities would be the royal family of
Wurttemberg, descendants of his aunt.
The fate of his territories is better recorded. By virtue of an old
family arrangement, they should have gone to the Hanoverian branch of
the family. However, the head of that branch, King George V of
Hanover, had been deprived of his own lands when the Prussians
conquered tham in 1866, and they were not prepared to see a member of
that House succeed to another German state without renouncing that
claim, which they refused to do. George's grandson eventually secured
Brunswick by the ingenious expedient of marrying the daughter of
Kaiser Wilhelm II, who restored them to him as a wedding present,
although he only held them for five years, until the German revolution
of 1918. *His* grandson is the presnt prince of Honover, who is
married to Princess Caroline of Monaco.
fatso
fsecinating acquisition! It would be interesting to know what happened to the Duke's personal property on his death - there was no obvious heir, the nearest relatives being an illegitimate sister and and illegitimate niece. The closest legitimate possibilities would be the royal family of Wurttemberg, descendants of his aunt.
that they mis-appropriated some spoons and forks of the Duke in lieu of wages.
And that is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II,_Duke_of_Brunswick
The previous Duke, Charles II, was quite a character. After the Palace Revolution he took the runner
to Paris, not neglecting to drag along Brunswick treasury contents. I have read that he kept his riches
inside a well in Paris, jealously guarding access to them. Eventually, tired of plotting to regain his throne
he took off to Switzerland. Made a pact with crafty Swiss: he gave them his treasure and they built him
mausoleum in Bern. He reposes to this day in his mausoleum, like Lenin. Maybe the rest of my cutlery
rests under his mortal remains?
fatso
fatso
To me it looks Germanic. The dextrochère and a sinisterchère holding three flowers or trefoils though is difficult to identify. There is a family - Negelein - with a dextrochère holindg three flowers; with a crest of an arm armoured (not embowed) holding three flowers between two buffallo horns. The crest may well have been represented at a small scale as illustrated in your photo. (O Neubecker: Grosses Wappen-Bilder-Lexikon, 1992, 174. Neubecker identifies the origin of his illustration of fthe Negelein arms as Bürgerliche Siebmacher, Abtlg 8, tafel 74). No guarantee that this is the right family at all, more research would be needed, but it does suggest the style and subject matter exist in the Germanic context. Quite a few German arms are quartered with dimidiated eagles in this way which may be an augmentation. Derek Howard
One thing is certain from the hallmarks: the time those conjoint Arms were engraved on a matrix
and applied to the cutlery was between 1867- and 1922. It is a wonderful piece of artisanship,
this precise structure in a miniature. The Arms have a banner spread underneath or whatever name you use
to describe it. Probably some family motto. Unfortunately, I cannot decipher any letters .
No, on second thoughts, I think the Rt hand side does show little hearts and the Lt side some
bells. If I will get no joy with my own research then will try and work out who V.H.S. silversmith
was in Vienna at the time, then probably personal visit to trace the archives over there.
It was a major order at the time and the would know.
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=coinjointArms.jpg
fatso