identifying arms on a Scottish tombstone
Francois R. Velde
On my site are two pictures:
http://www.heraldica.org/misc/stone.jpg and
http://www.heraldica.org/misc/tomb1.jpg (which is a close-up). They show a
gravestone slab at the Old Parish Church of Campsie, Scotland (N.E. of Glasgow).
The coat of arms on the close-up (between the letters IF) is in question.
The correspondent tells me:
> it is below that of James Kincaid of that Ilk, who died 13 February 1604, and
> is almost certainly that of his wife. When inspectors for the Royal
> Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland reviewed them in
> 1953 they could not, or did not, identify them but recorded them as "In chief
> three rosettes between three piles, in base an annulet." They noted that they
> were the arms of James Kincaid of that Ilk's wife, who is unidentified.
> James Kincaid of that Ilk was likely the son of Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk, who
> was son of Thomas Kincaid of Coates who was Constable of Edinburgh Castle at
> the time of the Battle of Flodden. James Kincaid's mother appears to have been
> Elizabeth Kincaid of that Ilk and his birth would have been in the early 1500s.
> I say appears because there may have been another James Kincaid of that Ilk
> (ie. James son of Thomas was the father of James husband of the I.F. in the
> coat of arms). Thomas Kincaid of that Ilk appears to have had as his second
> wife Margaret Seton. The son of this I.F., James Kincaid of that Ilk, married
> an illegitimate daughter of the Earl of Rothes (Christian Leslie).
Any suggestions? The blazon of the commissioners seems inaccurate to me.
--
François Velde
ve...@mcs.nospam (replace by "net")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Bkwyrm
>From: ve...@mcs.nospam (Francois R. Velde)
>Date: Thu, Jul 23, 1998 01:09 EDT
>Message-id: <35bac2c0...@news.mcs.net>
>
>
Right now I can't get any search engine to even admit that www.heraldica.org
exists, so I can't comment on the picture. However, how can you have 3
rosettes (roses? wreaths? something else entirely?) between 3 piles?
Unless the piles are in chief, and the "rosettes" are more in the middle of
the fiels.
Brad
James Dempster
wrote:
>The correspondent tells me:
>> it is below that of James Kincaid of that Ilk, who died 13 February 1604, and
>> is almost certainly that of his wife. When inspectors for the Royal
>> Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland reviewed them in
>> 1953 they could not, or did not, identify them but recorded them as "In chief
>> three rosettes between three piles, in base an annulet." They noted that they
>> were the arms of James Kincaid of that Ilk's wife, who is unidentified.
>Any suggestions? The blazon of the commissioners seems inaccurate to me.
The blazon of the Royal Commission certainly looks wrong, but this
does not really surprise me. A friend who is a freelance archaeologist
was here in Elgin a few months ago working for the Royal Commission on
the carved stonework at Elgin cathedral. He was mainly providing
computer backup for the main person from the Royal Commission who was
an art historian. She knew nothing about heraldry, and whilst my
friend is no expert, he had got hold of the main books on the subject
of the cathedral decorations (a PSAS article by WR Macdonald (Carrick)
, and an invaluable local history book called "Elgin Past & Present")
and he was able to counteract some of the wilder flights of art
history theory that would otherwise have ended up in the notes.
Sadly the Royal Commission doesn't really have any heraldic experts.
Looking to the arms in question - I would blazon them as On a fess
betreen three piles in chief and an annulet in base, three cinqfoils.
The presence of the latter charges with the surname initial F does
immediately call to mind Fraser, but even given the fact that the
Saltouns quarter the piles of Wishart, I can't imaging that even the
wildest flights of do-it-yourself marshalling would produce the actual
coat from those components.
The nearest reference I have found is in Nisbet who notes the
following
"The surname of Roger, designed of that Ilk in Workman's MS. Vert on a
fesse argent, between three piles in chief, and a cinquefoil in base
of the last, a saltier of the first. But Mr Pont, in his Book of
Blazons, gives to the name of Roger only vert, a fesse argent; and to
another family of that name sable, a stag's head erased argent,
holding in its mouth a mullet or."
Volume one of Balfour Paul only records two stags head Rogers.
James
James Dempster (jdem...@easynet.co.uk)
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Anton Sherwood
in base an annulet, three rosettes." Each "rosette" is a cluster of
six dots, one within a ring of five; it strikes me that they could
easily be a mutation of the dots for Or.
: http://www.heraldica.org/misc/stone.jpg and
: http://www.heraldica.org/misc/tomb1.jpg (which is a close-up). ...
: The correspondent tells me:
: > .... inspectors for the Royal
: > Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland ...
: > recorded them as "In chief three rosettes between three piles,
: > in base an annulet." ...
--
"How'd ya like to climb this high WITHOUT no mountain?" --Porky Pine 70.6.19
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DASher at netcom point com
Francois R. Velde
>A better blazon would be "on a fess, between in chief three piles and
>in base an annulet, three rosettes." Each "rosette" is a cluster of
>six dots, one within a ring of five; it strikes me that they could
>easily be a mutation of the dots for Or.
It's a bit early for that (the tomb is late 16th c.).
Ld W. Baldwin,MD-S
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: identifying arms on a Scottish tombstone
> >From: ve...@mcs.nospam (Francois R. Velde)
> >Date: Thu, Jul 23, 1998 01:09 EDT
> >Message-id: <35bac2c0...@news.mcs.net>
> >
> >
>
> Right now I can't get any search engine to even admit that www.heraldica.org
> exists, so I can't comment on the picture.
bUT it's rated as a magellan four star site!! Perhaps the engines need a
few e-mails educating them on the status of Velde's existence....
Bkwyrm
<HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: identifying arms on a Scottish tombstone
>From: "Ld W. Baldwin,MD-S" <eir...@bellsouth.net>
>Date: Sun, Jul 26, 1998 20:50 EDT
>Message-id: <35BBEA...@bellsouth.net>
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
Please, tell me how!
Brad