Duck, symbol of industriousness, in the Coat of Arms
fatso
<http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=PlateNo6A.jpg>
And here above comes another conundrum from my silver collection. The
Arms are engraved upon
my set of 12 portugese chargers(plates). I have a feeling that the
plates might be connected to the
imperial House of Brasil of Dom Pedro in the XIX century. Poor chap has
been dethroned and
made to live in exile in Italy and Britain. His descendants having
fallen upon the hard times might have flogged
the plates back to the trades people. The silversmiths marks are
characteristic to late XIX century.
Any comments would be appreciated.
fatso
TJ
> http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...
> <http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤...>
>
> And here above comes another conundrum from my silver collection. The
> Arms are engraved upon
> my set of 12 portugese chargers(plates). I have a feeling that the
> plates might be connected to the
> imperial House of Brasil of Dom Pedro in the XIX century. Poor chap has
> been dethroned and
> made to live in exile in Italy and Britain. His descendants having
> fallen upon the hard times might have flogged
> the plates back to the trades people. The silversmiths marks are
> characteristic to late XIX century.
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
> fatso
The presence of a clover is .... somehow weird to me!!
I thought it is solely like ... a national Irish symbol. Well, I'm not
Irish or a descendant of an Irish anyway.
And, is the duck connected to the love of industry indeed? I mean it
means that this family or or person is part of the industrious world
or so? Or it's a sign of simply a "craftsman" ?
I used to see a swan and I use my own, but a duck? Don't remember
seeing that one!
fatso
> The presence of a clover is .... somehow weird to me!!
> I thought it is solely like ... a national Irish symbol. Well, I'm not
> Irish or a descendant of an Irish anyway.
> And, is the duck connected to the love of industry indeed? I mean it
> means that this family or or person is part of the industrious world
> or so? Or it's a sign of simply a "craftsman" ?
> I used to see a swan and I use my own, but a duck? Don't remember
> seeing that one!
>
but granted, never
have seen this friendly creature used in the Coat of Arms, But here it
is and on a sumptious
set of twelve antique portugese chargers which did not come cheap. Maybe
some new
Iberian nobility of jewish persuasion? Irish connection can be
dismissed here as I have
looked, puzzled, amongst the irish nobility, bearing in mind those
clover leaves. Could find
nothing similar.
fatso
Turenne
countries do use the style of charge shown on your salver.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_ville_fr_Grandris_(Rh%C3%B4ne).svg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_Beaumont.svg
I think your image is of ducks; here are some Dutch ones:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Reeuwyk.jpg
There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't
much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and
the canton azure.
I give in....!
Richard Lichten
fatso
thank you very much for your trouble, Richard.
have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House,
Iberian Arms generally,
with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in
Spain.
My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star
next to clover leaves
does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a
daughter?
Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense
,when plenty of arrows, swords,
cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon
the head of a Dame with similar
homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
fatso
Derek Howard
> Turenne wrote:
> > The style of the trifoils (clover) seems French to me, though other
> > countries do use the style of charge shown on your salver.
>
>
> >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_Beaumont.svg
>
> > I think your image is of ducks; here are some Dutch ones:
>
> >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Reeuwyk.jpg
>
> > There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't
> > much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
>
> > As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and
> > the canton azure.
>
> > I give in....!
>
> > Richard Lichten
>
> thank you very much for your trouble, Richard.
> have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House,
> Iberian Arms generally,
> with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in
> Spain.
> My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star
> next to clover leaves
> does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a
> daughter?
> Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense
> ,when plenty of arrows, swords,
> cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon
> the head of a Dame with similar
> homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
The style suggests Belgian or Dutch to me. The duck is a common charge
in the Low Countries (called a canette in French blason - there is a
family of de Limon with a sitting duck crest but different arms) and
the trefoil is also quite common in Belgium, as are cantons.
I have only quickly had a look at Janssens and Duerloo: "Armorial de
la noblesse belge", 1992 but did not find the arms there. Perhaps the
bearers were not noble or maybe they were Dutch. I regret I do not
have time to search more fully.
Derek Howard
Turenne
> Turenne wrote:
> > The style of the trifoils (clover) seems French to me, though other
> > countries do use the style of charge shown on your salver.
>
>
> >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_Beaumont.svg
>
> > I think your image is of ducks; here are some Dutch ones:
>
> >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_Reeuwyk.jpg
>
> > There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't
> > much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
>
> > As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and
> > the canton azure.
>
> > I give in....!
>
> > Richard Lichten
>
> thank you very much for your trouble, Richard.
> have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House,
> Iberian Arms generally,
> with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in
> Spain.
> My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star
> next to clover leaves
> does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a
> daughter?
> Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense
> ,when plenty of arrows, swords,
> cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon
> the head of a Dame with similar
> homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
fatso wrote:
My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The
star
next to clover leaves
does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps
a
daughter?
Sorry for top posting Derek. I can't seem to post below you!!
The arms are almost certainly not those of a woman. A woman's arms
would normally appear on a lozenge and without a helm. See:
http://home.att.net/~numericana/arms/thatcher.htm
Arms also tended not to have 'a feminine feel' to them. Don't forget,
they tended to pass through the male line. That said; even the most
warlike of feudal knights in England, Germany and elsewhere bore arms
with the most prosaic charges (spoons, musical instruments, combs,
stockings etc)
As Derek says; (below!) the duck was not an uncommon charge. The Duc
de Beauvilliers, a French peer, bore them as well.
Richard
fatso
> On
> As Derek says; (below!) the duck was not an uncommon charge. The Duc
> de Beauvilliers, a French peer, bore them as well.
>
> Richard
>
I found british ducks, in Wales
http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/873965 welsh Enli family 3 ducks
http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/874004 welsh Langford 1 duck
also 3 clover leaves in upper half of shield here:
http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/873954 welsh Bambil/Bamvill 3
clovers in upper half of shield
problem : how to marry one to another into one synthetic Coat of Arms.
fatso
Turenne
> Turenne wrote:
> > On
> > As Derek says; (below!) the duck was not an uncommon charge. The Duc
> > de Beauvilliers, a French peer, bore them as well.
>
> > Richard
>
>
> http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/874004welsh Langford 1 duck
> also 3 clover leaves in upper half of shield here:http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats/873954welsh Bambil/Bamvill 3
> clovers in upper half of shield
>
> problem : how to marry one to another into one synthetic Coat of Arms.
>
> fatso
Sadly, it's unlikely your arms have anything to do with the Welsh ones
you cite. I'll have a go at blazoning the arms on your silverware, it
may help. In the absence of tinctures I'll insert a question mark:
Here goes:
Argent? a fess sable between 2 trefoils ? in chief and 3 ducks ? in
base on a canton of the first azure an estoile argent?
Am more than happy to be corrected!!
For your future silver purchases some idea of the system of hatching
may help you. Have a squint at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching_system
Cheers
Richard
fatso
Thanks, Richard
I have acquired a little museum of silver, quite true.
Now the curiosity of a child in me takes me to the horizons new.
Have got already a short compendium by the Observer of London
and some major work by some vicar, withdrawn from the library as out of
date and
flogged on eBay to me.
But the truth is: it all does me head in!
My own Arms, one of the oldest in Poland, are so much simpler and
better for it.
regards
fatso
Turenne
Richard
fatso
here it is:
http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/swiniopas/?action=view¤t=Herb_Ogonczyk.jpg
Ogonczyk or ancient Powala it stems from, has been used from XI th century, I believe,
i.e.times the proto-szlachta have been forming in those territories. The simple form
has two arms raised in supplication to the skies in its crest. The legend has it that the hands belonged
to the nubile young lady, imprisoned and taken advantage of by some rouge. The dashing fellow
who has saved her from unwanted suitor got to savour both the lady and her properties, starting
the Family with many an issue. The Arms have been accepted by some boyar families
in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as well.
As to myself, my family (Robak) are recorded as bearers of those arms in 1700 nobilitation records.
The point I try to make this very moment by questing the records in Minsk/Belarus is the name we
did carry beforehand. I have the reason to believe the actual name before conversion to actual one
was different one and the time the knight's spurs granted was 1018 year of our Lord. The greatest surprise of my life
has occured only recently. Proof to be gleaned from my internet pages as above. I was tested genetically
and proved to be a Vareg, sort of Viking or Norman who has lost his way and went East to Kievan Rus
all this millenium ago.
Now it all fits together: the glint of silver makes my heart race and my grubby paws stretch out to rob and
steal on their own!
fatso
Turenne
Richard
fatso
> Very interesting. Thank you for that...
>
> Richard
>
>
Perhaps it would be worth to add that the whole system was much simpler
in Polish Commonwealth as far as the Arms are concerned. There was no
individually adjusted Arms although one own's arms were accepted by the
Sejm(Parliament)
and carried down the generations. Thus the whole set, no more then 200
Arms or so, can be
depicted in decent sized book, a large number of families sometimes
carrying the same Arms
or the close variant.
To go off on the original tangent, I have tracked down a number of ducks
in the french Arms.
The most promising is:
http://www.cafepress.com/familycoats2/3476830 french Beauharnais Family
3 ducks in a top row,
the thing quite similar to Arms on my silver chargers but no clover
leaves. The name does excite
though as Josephine de Beauharnais, widow of a french captain, used to
take in the washing of
young aspiring corsican officer, one Napoleon Bonaparte. The rest as
they say is History.
fatso
Turenne
> Turenne wrote:
> > Very interesting. Thank you for that...
>
> > Richard
>
> Perhaps it would be worth to add that the whole system was much simpler
> in Polish Commonwealth as far as the Arms are concerned. There was no
> individually adjusted Arms although one own's arms were accepted by the
> Sejm(Parliament)
> and carried down the generations. Thus the whole set, no more then 200
> Arms or so, can be
> depicted in decent sized book, a large number of families sometimes
> carrying the same Arms
> or the close variant.
>
> To go off on the original tangent, I have tracked down a number of ducks
> in the french Arms.
> The most promising is:
>
> 3 ducks in a top row,
>
> the thing quite similar to Arms on my silver chargers but no clover
> leaves. The name does excite
> though as Josephine de Beauharnais, widow of a french captain, used to
> take in the washing of
> young aspiring corsican officer, one Napoleon Bonaparte. The rest as
> they say is History.
>
> fatso
I'm afraid that the Beauharnais arms are martlets ' argent a fess
beneath three martlets in chief sable'. As I mentioned before, the
appearance of ducks, trefoils and fesses are no indication that they
are related to the arms on your silverware.
Richard
George T SLC
> I'm afraid that the Beauharnais arms are martlets ' argent a fess
> beneath three martlets in chief sable'.
>
Just in case anybody reading this group doesn't already know: The way
you can tell they're martlets is that the feathered tops of their legs
appear, unlike ducks naiant (the type in the current arms) with no
legs showing, or statant, with entire legs showing. You should also
be able to tell by the beaks, of course--missing from the martlets,
which neither eat not perch (ja, sure!), but when the representation
is small and/or blurred . . .