And here above comes another conundrum from my silver collection. The Arms are engraved upon my set of 12 portugese chargers(plates). I have a feeling that the plates might be connected to the imperial House of Brasil of Dom Pedro in the XIX century. Poor chap has been dethroned and made to live in exile in Italy and Britain. His descendants having fallen upon the hard times might have flogged the plates back to the trades people. The silversmiths marks are characteristic to late XIX century. Any comments would be appreciated.
> And here above comes another conundrum from my silver collection. The > Arms are engraved upon > my set of 12 portugese chargers(plates). I have a feeling that the > plates might be connected to the > imperial House of Brasil of Dom Pedro in the XIX century. Poor chap has > been dethroned and > made to live in exile in Italy and Britain. His descendants having > fallen upon the hard times might have flogged > the plates back to the trades people. The silversmiths marks are > characteristic to late XIX century. > Any comments would be appreciated.
> fatso
The presence of a clover is .... somehow weird to me!! I thought it is solely like ... a national Irish symbol. Well, I'm not Irish or a descendant of an Irish anyway. And, is the duck connected to the love of industry indeed? I mean it means that this family or or person is part of the industrious world or so? Or it's a sign of simply a "craftsman" ? I used to see a swan and I use my own, but a duck? Don't remember seeing that one!
TJ wrote: > The presence of a clover is .... somehow weird to me!! > I thought it is solely like ... a national Irish symbol. Well, I'm not > Irish or a descendant of an Irish anyway. > And, is the duck connected to the love of industry indeed? I mean it > means that this family or or person is part of the industrious world > or so? Or it's a sign of simply a "craftsman" ? > I used to see a swan and I use my own, but a duck? Don't remember > seeing that one!
I recall my Spectator booklet on Heraldry mention Duck in this capacity but granted, never have seen this friendly creature used in the Coat of Arms, But here it is and on a sumptious set of twelve antique portugese chargers which did not come cheap. Maybe some new Iberian nobility of jewish persuasion? Irish connection can be dismissed here as I have looked, puzzled, amongst the irish nobility, bearing in mind those clover leaves. Could find nothing similar.
> There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't > much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
> As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and > the canton azure.
> I give in....!
> Richard Lichten
thank you very much for your trouble, Richard. have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House, Iberian Arms generally, with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in Spain. My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star next to clover leaves does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a daughter? Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense ,when plenty of arrows, swords, cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon the head of a Dame with similar homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
> Turenne wrote: > > The style of the trifoils (clover) seems French to me, though other > > countries do use the style of charge shown on your salver.
> > There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't > > much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
> > As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and > > the canton azure.
> > I give in....!
> > Richard Lichten
> thank you very much for your trouble, Richard. > have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House, > Iberian Arms generally, > with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in > Spain. > My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star > next to clover leaves > does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a > daughter? > Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense > ,when plenty of arrows, swords, > cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon > the head of a Dame with similar > homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
> fatso- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
The style suggests Belgian or Dutch to me. The duck is a common charge in the Low Countries (called a canette in French blason - there is a family of de Limon with a sitting duck crest but different arms) and the trefoil is also quite common in Belgium, as are cantons.
I have only quickly had a look at Janssens and Duerloo: "Armorial de la noblesse belge", 1992 but did not find the arms there. Perhaps the bearers were not noble or maybe they were Dutch. I regret I do not have time to search more fully.
> Turenne wrote: > > The style of the trifoils (clover) seems French to me, though other > > countries do use the style of charge shown on your salver.
> > There isn't much to link the arms to Dom Pedro, in fact there isn't > > much to link the arms to Portugal/Brazil.
> > As far as the tinctures are concerned, the fess is probably sable and > > the canton azure.
> > I give in....!
> > Richard Lichten
> thank you very much for your trouble, Richard. > have spent a lot of time sniffing around Dom Pedro and his House, > Iberian Arms generally, > with no success. Have looked up arms also awarded to jewish Convertos in > Spain. > My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star > next to clover leaves > does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a > daughter? > Also, generally they seem not to be threatening, in the european sense > ,when plenty of arrows, swords, > cutoff saracen heads to be had. Here just a duck sitting proudly upon > the head of a Dame with similar > homely marks on the shield. Rare picture of tranquility, to my mind.
> fatso- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text - fatso wrote:
My feeling is that the arms do have the feminine feel to them. The star next to clover leaves does seem to indicate the person who might be branching out, perhaps a daughter?
Sorry for top posting Derek. I can't seem to post below you!!
The arms are almost certainly not those of a woman. A woman's arms would normally appear on a lozenge and without a helm. See:
Arms also tended not to have 'a feminine feel' to them. Don't forget, they tended to pass through the male line. That said; even the most warlike of feudal knights in England, Germany and elsewhere bore arms with the most prosaic charges (spoons, musical instruments, combs, stockings etc)
As Derek says; (below!) the duck was not an uncommon charge. The Duc de Beauvilliers, a French peer, bore them as well.
> Turenne wrote: > > On > > As Derek says; (below!) the duck was not an uncommon charge. The Duc > > de Beauvilliers, a French peer, bore them as well.
> problem : how to marry one to another into one synthetic Coat of Arms.
> fatso
Sadly, it's unlikely your arms have anything to do with the Welsh ones you cite. I'll have a go at blazoning the arms on your silverware, it may help. In the absence of tinctures I'll insert a question mark:
Here goes:
Argent? a fess sable between 2 trefoils ? in chief and 3 ducks ? in base on a canton of the first azure an estoile argent?
Am more than happy to be corrected!!
For your future silver purchases some idea of the system of hatching may help you. Have a squint at this:
>> problem : how to marry one to another into one synthetic Coat of Arms.
>> fatso
> Sadly, it's unlikely your arms have anything to do with the Welsh ones > you cite. I'll have a go at blazoning the arms on your silverware, it > may help. In the absence of tinctures I'll insert a question mark:
> Here goes:
> Argent? a fess sable between 2 trefoils ? in chief and 3 ducks ? in > base on a canton of the first azure an estoile argent?
> Am more than happy to be corrected!!
> For your future silver purchases some idea of the system of hatching > may help you. Have a squint at this:
Thanks, Richard I have acquired a little museum of silver, quite true. Now the curiosity of a child in me takes me to the horizons new. Have got already a short compendium by the Observer of London and some major work by some vicar, withdrawn from the library as out of date and flogged on eBay to me. But the truth is: it all does me head in! My own Arms, one of the oldest in Poland, are so much simpler and better for it. regards
On 20 Dec, 00:01, fatso <fatso60...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Turenne wrote: > > On 19 Dec, There are several people on this newsgroup (myself included) who have Polish ancestry. I'm sure we'd be interested to hear about your arms which no doubt are the arms of your szlachta.
Turenne wrote: > On 20 Dec, 00:01, fatso <fatso60...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Turenne wrote:
>>> On 19 Dec, There are several people on this newsgroup (myself included) who have Polish ancestry. I'm sure we'd be interested to hear about your arms which no doubt are the arms of your szlachta.
Ogonczyk or ancient Powala it stems from, has been used from XI th century, I believe, i.e.times the proto-szlachta have been forming in those territories. The simple form has two arms raised in supplication to the skies in its crest. The legend has it that the hands belonged to the nubile young lady, imprisoned and taken advantage of by some rouge. The dashing fellow who has saved her from unwanted suitor got to savour both the lady and her properties, starting the Family with many an issue. The Arms have been accepted by some boyar families in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as well.
As to myself, my family (Robak) are recorded as bearers of those arms in 1700 nobilitation records. The point I try to make this very moment by questing the records in Minsk/Belarus is the name we did carry beforehand. I have the reason to believe the actual name before conversion to actual one was different one and the time the knight's spurs granted was 1018 year of our Lord. The greatest surprise of my life has occured only recently. Proof to be gleaned from my internet pages as above. I was tested genetically and proved to be a Vareg, sort of Viking or Norman who has lost his way and went East to Kievan Rus all this millenium ago. Now it all fits together: the glint of silver makes my heart race and my grubby paws stretch out to rob and steal on their own!
Turenne wrote: > Very interesting. Thank you for that...
> Richard
Perhaps it would be worth to add that the whole system was much simpler in Polish Commonwealth as far as the Arms are concerned. There was no individually adjusted Arms although one own's arms were accepted by the Sejm(Parliament) and carried down the generations. Thus the whole set, no more then 200 Arms or so, can be depicted in decent sized book, a large number of families sometimes carrying the same Arms or the close variant.
To go off on the original tangent, I have tracked down a number of ducks in the french Arms. The most promising is:
the thing quite similar to Arms on my silver chargers but no clover leaves. The name does excite though as Josephine de Beauharnais, widow of a french captain, used to take in the washing of young aspiring corsican officer, one Napoleon Bonaparte. The rest as they say is History.
> Turenne wrote: > > Very interesting. Thank you for that...
> > Richard
> Perhaps it would be worth to add that the whole system was much simpler > in Polish Commonwealth as far as the Arms are concerned. There was no > individually adjusted Arms although one own's arms were accepted by the > Sejm(Parliament) > and carried down the generations. Thus the whole set, no more then 200 > Arms or so, can be > depicted in decent sized book, a large number of families sometimes > carrying the same Arms > or the close variant.
> To go off on the original tangent, I have tracked down a number of ducks > in the french Arms. > The most promising is:
> the thing quite similar to Arms on my silver chargers but no clover > leaves. The name does excite > though as Josephine de Beauharnais, widow of a french captain, used to > take in the washing of > young aspiring corsican officer, one Napoleon Bonaparte. The rest as > they say is History.
> fatso
I'm afraid that the Beauharnais arms are martlets ' argent a fess beneath three martlets in chief sable'. As I mentioned before, the appearance of ducks, trefoils and fesses are no indication that they are related to the arms on your silverware.
On Dec 20, 10:38 am, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
> I'm afraid that the Beauharnais arms are martlets ' argent a fess > beneath three martlets in chief sable'.
> Richard
Just in case anybody reading this group doesn't already know: The way you can tell they're martlets is that the feathered tops of their legs appear, unlike ducks naiant (the type in the current arms) with no legs showing, or statant, with entire legs showing. You should also be able to tell by the beaks, of course--missing from the martlets, which neither eat not perch (ja, sure!), but when the representation is small and/or blurred . . .
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