Whoever is first to lay hands on a new Debrett, will you look up something for me?
Sir Iain Moncreiffe, Albany Herald, was once married to the Countess (in her own right) of Erroll. Their first son (now nth Earl) dropped the name and arms of Moncreiffe for those of Hay alone (he could have been Hay-Moncreiffe and quartered).
Sir Iain died in 1985. I want to know: did the Moncreiffe baronetcy go to the Earl, or to his brother? -- disclaimer: the above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence. Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com put Canter & Siegel out of business: open the borders
In article <dasherD57Ep8....@netcom.com>, das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood) writes: >Sir Iain Moncreiffe, Albany Herald, was once married to the Countess >(in her own right) of Erroll. Their first son (now nth Earl) dropped >the name and arms of Moncreiffe for those of Hay alone (he could have >been Hay-Moncreiffe and quartered).
>Sir Iain died in 1985. I want to know: did the Moncreiffe baronetcy >go to the Earl, or to his brother?
The earldom of Erroll belongs to the chief of clan Hay. As a chief must use the clan name, Merlin, the elder son, had to drop Moncrieffe in order to inherit the peerage. His younger brother, Peregrin, is now Moncrieffe of that Ilk. Elliot Nesterman ESN4616@NYUACF Institute of Fine Arts ESN4616@ACF*.NYU.EDU New York University standard disclaimers apply ***baccalaureus humilis solum sed melior me facere experior***
: Whoever is first to lay hands on a new Debrett, will you look up : something for me?
: Sir Iain Moncreiffe, Albany Herald, was once married to the Countess : (in her own right) of Erroll. Their first son (now nth Earl) dropped : the name and arms of Moncreiffe for those of Hay alone (he could have : been Hay-Moncreiffe and quartered).
: Sir Iain died in 1985. I want to know: did the Moncreiffe baronetcy : go to the Earl, or to his brother?
I received the following reply. Since it wasn't posted, I'll assume the sender prefers anonymity.
: Debretts lists a Moncreiffe of that Ilk Baronetcy, but identifies : your Sir Iain as the holder. It does say that he died in 1985 and : was succeeded by his son the 24th Earl of Erroll but it does not : identify the Earl as a Baronet. : : Checking the Erroll Peerage entry one finds Merlin Sereld Victor Gilbert : *Hay* listed as the 24th Earl and 12th *holder* of the Baronetcy whereas : other Peers are listed as Peer and Baronet rather than holders. : : Also interestingly, the brother of the Earl, the Hon Peregrine David : Euan Malcolm Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe is listed as the feudal Baron of : Easter Moncreiffe and fiar of the feudal Barony of Moncreiffe. Where : does he derive these titles from and why are the especially designated : as "feudal"? Also why should his brother simply be the holder of the : baronetcy and not the Baronet?
A "feudal barony" in Scotland is not a peerage but an estate (in England I guess he'd be called a "lord of the manor"). -- disclaimer: the above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence. Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com put Canter & Siegel out of business: open the borders
I do know that baby Moncreiffe ( or that should be Hay) has his arms displayed in that neat-o book "An Outline of Heraldry" by Robert Innes-Smith, and in it Merlin Sereld Victor Gilbert Hay only displays his mother's arms and name. Moncreiffe's been shafted.
Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote: >Whoever is first to lay hands on a new Debrett, will you look up >something for me?
>Sir Iain Moncreiffe, Albany Herald, was once married to the Countess >(in her own right) of Erroll. Their first son (now nth Earl) dropped >the name and arms of Moncreiffe for those of Hay alone (he could have >been Hay-Moncreiffe and quartered).
>Sir Iain died in 1985. I want to know: did the Moncreiffe baronetcy >go to the Earl, or to his brother?
Lord Erroll did inherit the baronetcy from Sir Iain. Both Sir Iain and Lady Erroll were chiefs of their respectvie clans. Although it is not strictly followed, a Scottish clan chief should use the clan name alone as surname and bear plain arms. Since peerages and baronetcies go to the eldest son, Lord Erroll got them all. He also got the plain Hay arms and became chief of the Hays. His brother, Hon. Peregrine Moncreiffe, has the Moncreiffe arms and chiefship.
In Lord Erroll's matriculation of arms, an "alternate" coat of arms is described showing what his arms could be if he didn't use the plain Hay arms. I'll type in the blazon if anyone's interested.
: In article <dasherD57Ep8....@netcom.com>, : Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote: : >Whoever is first to lay hands on a new Debrett, will you look up : >something for me? : > : >Sir Iain Moncreiffe, Albany Herald, was once married to the Countess : >(in her own right) of Erroll. Their first son (now nth Earl) dropped : >the name and arms of Moncreiffe for those of Hay alone (he could have : >been Hay-Moncreiffe and quartered). : > : >Sir Iain died in 1985. I want to know: did the Moncreiffe baronetcy : >go to the Earl, or to his brother?
: Lord Erroll did inherit the baronetcy from Sir Iain. Both Sir Iain : and Lady Erroll were chiefs of their respectvie clans. Although it is : not strictly followed, a Scottish clan chief should use the clan name : alone as surname and bear plain arms. Since peerages and baronetcies : go to the eldest son, Lord Erroll got them all. He also got the plain : Hay arms and became chief of the Hays. His brother, Hon. Peregrine : Moncreiffe, has the Moncreiffe arms and chiefship.
: In Lord Erroll's matriculation of arms, an "alternate" coat of arms is : described showing what his arms could be if he didn't use the plain : Hay arms. I'll type in the blazon if anyone's interested.
I have my copy of Debrett 1995 in front of me,and Lord Erroll is shown as bearing the Hay arms only.
His brother is called "feudal Baron of Easter Moncreiffe and fiar of the feudal Barony of Moncreiffe",but there is no mention of his being recognized in Lyon Court or elsewhere as clan chief.I haven't seen him on the chief list in Whitaker.
: In article <dasherD57Ep8....@netcom.com>, : Anton Sherwood <das...@netcom.com> wrote: : >Whoever is first to lay hands on a new Debrett, will you look up : >something for me? : >
: Lord Erroll did inherit the baronetcy from Sir Iain. Both Sir Iain : and Lady Erroll were chiefs of their respectvie clans. Although it is : not strictly followed, a Scottish clan chief should use the clan name : alone as surname and bear plain arms. Since peerages and baronetcies : go to the eldest son, Lord Erroll got them all. He also got the plain : Hay arms and became chief of the Hays. His brother, Hon. Peregrine : Moncreiffe, has the Moncreiffe arms and chiefship.
To respond further...I note on Debrett's p. B610 that Katharine Elisabeth Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe(a daughter of the ninth baronet,I assume a sister of the 10th whose death in a fire passed the title to Sir Iain) is listed as "24th Feudal Baroness of Moncreiffe",seat Moncreiffe,Perthshire.She was born 1920;I assume the Hon. Peregrine(b. 1951) is not going to apply to be recognized in Lyon Court as Chief of the Clan until after she dies.
Note that Sir Iain's line,baronets from 1685,had the chiefship conveyed to them in the 1660s by another line,baronets from 1626,who are now represented by the 5th Lord Moncreiff.Their seat is Tullibole Castle in Kinross-shire.
In article <3k77bh...@tzlink.j51.com>, leps...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes: >To respond further...I note on Debrett's p. B610 that Katharine Elisabeth >Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe(a daughter of the ninth baronet,I assume a sister >of the 10th whose death in a fire passed the title to Sir Iain) is listed as >"24th Feudal Baroness of Moncreiffe",seat Moncreiffe,Perthshire.She was >born 1920;I assume the Hon. Peregrine(b. 1951) is not going to apply to be >recognized in Lyon Court as Chief of the Clan until after she dies.
As an aside, it is specifically because of possible confusion between the feudal barony of Moncrieffe and the chiefship of Clan Moncrieffe that Sir Iain was styled Moncrieffe of that Ilk. Sir Iain's feudal seat was Easter Moncrieffe, his sister's is Moncrieffe. He, as head of the clan, could style himself Moncrieffe of Moncrieffe. She, as feudal baroness of that property, can style herself Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe. To avoid confusion, until such time as the feudal barony of Moncreiffe may be held by the chief of Clan Moncreiffe the chief will continue to be styled Moncreiffe of that Ilk. Elliot Nesterman ESN4616@NYUACF Institute of Fine Arts ESN4616@ACF*.NYU.EDU New York University standard disclaimers apply ***baccalaureus humilis solum sed melior me facere experior***
In article <3k5vr9...@tzlink.j51.com>, Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> wrote: >Jeff Remillard (j...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU) wrote: >: He (Lord Erroll) also got the plain >: Hay arms and became chief of the Hays.
>: In Lord Erroll's matriculation of arms, an "alternate" coat of arms is >: described showing what his arms could be if he didn't use the plain >: Hay arms.
>I have my copy of Debrett 1995 in front of me,and Lord Erroll is shown >as bearing the Hay arms only.
Indeed. His matriculation confirms his arms as the plain Hay arms: Argent, three inescutcheons Gules. The matriculation document also describes his penon, banner and various badges. At the end there is this:
"His Loardship also has the following grand coat, surmounted of an Earl's coronet, videlicet:- Grand Quarterly 1st grand quarter; Argent a lion rampant Gules, armed and langued Azure, a chief Ermine (for the Baronial house of Moncreiffe of that Ilk): 2nd grand quarter; Quarterly, 1st, Azure, a fess chequy Argnet and Gules (for Boyd, Earl of Kilmarnock); 2nd, Argent, three gillflowers (represented as cinquefoils) Gules within a double tressure flory counterflory Vert (for Livingston, Earl of Linlithgow); 3rd, Sable, a bend between six billets Or (for Callendar, Thane of Callendar); 4th, Argent, three inescutcheons Gules (for Hay, Earl of Erroll): 3rd grand quarter; Quarterly; 1st and 4th, Gules, three lions passant guardant Or (England); 2nd, Or, a lion rampant Gules, armed and langued Azure, within a double tressure flory counterflory of the second (Scotland); 3rd, Azure, a harp Or, stringed Argent (Ireland); en surtout an inescutcheon tierced per pale and per chevron; 1st, Gules, two lions passant guardant Or (Brunswick); 2nd, Or, semee of hearts Gules, a lion rampant Azure (Luneburg); 3rd, Gules, a horse courant Argent (Hanover); being the Royal Arms of King William IV (without the Inescutcheon of the Crown of Charlemagne and without the Crown of Hanover) with the distinction over all of a baton sinister Azure charged with an anchor between two thistles stalked and leaved Or (for Elizabeth FitzClarence, Countess of Erroll): 4th grand quarter; Argent, a heart Gules, and on a chief Azure three mullets of the field (for Douglas, Earl of Douglas): AND Over All the Quarters: an Inescutcheon en surtout, Argent, three inescutcheons Gules, as Chief of the Name and Arms of Hay."
In article <3k77bh...@tzlink.j51.com>, Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> wrote: >To respond further...I note on Debrett's p. B610 that Katharine Elisabeth >Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe(a daughter of the ninth baronet,I assume a sister >of the 10th whose death in a fire passed the title to Sir Iain) is listed as >"24th Feudal Baroness of Moncreiffe",seat Moncreiffe,Perthshire.She was >born 1920;I assume the Hon. Peregrine(b. 1951) is not going to apply to be >recognized in Lyon Court as Chief of the Clan until after she dies.
The 1980 Debrett's (the only one I can get my hands on) has a listing of recognized clan chiefs. For Moncreiffe, it lists Sir Iain as chief and Elisabeth Moncreiffe, a cousin, as heir. For Hay, Lord Erroll is chief and Hon. Peregrine Moncreiffe is heir. What am I mising here? Why did the Moncreiffe chiefship go to a cousin rather than a son? This seems even more confusing than the Earl of Selkirk.
: In article <3k77bh...@tzlink.j51.com>, Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> wrote:
: >To respond further...I note on Debrett's p. B610 that Katharine Elisabeth : >Moncreiffe of Moncreiffe(a daughter of the ninth baronet,I assume a sister : >of the 10th whose death in a fire passed the title to Sir Iain) is listed as : >"24th Feudal Baroness of Moncreiffe",seat Moncreiffe,Perthshire.She was : >born 1920;I assume the Hon. Peregrine(b. 1951) is not going to apply to be : >recognized in Lyon Court as Chief of the Clan until after she dies. : > : The 1980 Debrett's (the only one I can get my hands on) has a listing : of recognized clan chiefs. For Moncreiffe, it lists Sir Iain as chief : and Elisabeth Moncreiffe, a cousin, as heir. For Hay, Lord Erroll is : chief and Hon. Peregrine Moncreiffe is heir. What am I mising here? : Why did the Moncreiffe chiefship go to a cousin rather than a son? : This seems even more confusing than the Earl of Selkirk.
The 1995 Debrett(the one I now own;I have seen 1980,1985,and 1990 editions each once in a library a thousand miles or more away from home) has no clan chief list.All my editions of WHITAKER'S ALMANACK do,but they do not list the heirs to chiefs(the odd chief who makes it into WHO'S WHO usually has an heir listed).WHITAKERs since Sir Iain's death have listed the Moncreiffe chiefship as vacant.
Anyway...Elisabeth Moncreiffe was the actual next of kin to the 10th baronet, but being female she could not succeed her brother in his baronetcy,which went to his cousin Sir Iain.Lord Erroll was the heir to the baronetcy,but being a Hay rather than an Moncreiffe could not take the chiefship.His brother will presumably claim it when Elisabeth dies.Now that Lord Erroll has two sons and two daughters,there seems no risk of combination again.
Note that when Lord Erroll's grandfather was killed(as in the film WHITE MISCHIEF),his daughter(later married to Sir Iain) inherited the Hay chiefship and Earldom,while his brother(their father had been Earl for only a year,FWIW) inherited the Barony of Kilmarnock and became Chief of Clan Boyd,taking that name.
: In article <3k5vr9...@tzlink.j51.com>, Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> wrote: : >Jeff Remillard (j...@bigwpi.WPI.EDU) wrote: : >: He (Lord Erroll) also got the plain Hay arms and became chief of the : >: Hays.
: >: In Lord Erroll's matriculation of arms, an "alternate" coat of arms is : >: described showing what his arms could be if he didn't use the plain : >: Hay arms. : > : >I have my copy of Debrett 1995 in front of me,and Lord Erroll is shown : >as bearing the Hay arms only. : > : Indeed. His matriculation confirms his arms as the plain Hay arms: : Argent, three inescutcheons Gules. The matriculation document also : describes his penon, banner and various badges. At the end there is : this:
: "His Loardship also has the following grand coat, surmounted of an : Earl's coronet, videlicet:- Grand Quarterly 1st grand quarter; : Argent a lion rampant Gules, armed and langued Azure, a chief : Ermine (for the Baronial house of Moncreiffe of that Ilk): 2nd : grand quarter; Quarterly, 1st, Azure, a fess chequy Argnet and : Gules (for Boyd, Earl of Kilmarnock); 2nd, Argent, three : gillflowers (represented as cinquefoils) Gules within a double : tressure flory counterflory Vert (for Livingston, Earl of : Linlithgow); 3rd, Sable, a bend between six billets Or (for : Callendar, Thane of Callendar); 4th, Argent, three inescutcheons : Gules (for Hay, Earl of Erroll): 3rd grand quarter; Quarterly; : 1st and 4th, Gules, three lions passant guardant Or (England); : 2nd, Or, a lion rampant Gules, armed and langued Azure, within a : double tressure flory counterflory of the second (Scotland); 3rd, : Azure, a harp Or, stringed Argent (Ireland); en surtout an : inescutcheon tierced per pale and per chevron; 1st, Gules, two : lions passant guardant Or (Brunswick); 2nd, Or, semee of hearts : Gules, a lion rampant Azure (Luneburg); 3rd, Gules, a horse : courant Argent (Hanover); being the Royal Arms of King William IV : (without the Inescutcheon of the Crown of Charlemagne and without : the Crown of Hanover) with the distinction over all of a baton : sinister Azure charged with an anchor between two thistles : stalked and leaved Or (for Elizabeth FitzClarence, Countess of : Erroll): 4th grand quarter; Argent, a heart Gules, and on a chief : Azure three mullets of the field (for Douglas, Earl of Douglas): : AND Over All the Quarters: an Inescutcheon en surtout, Argent, : three inescutcheons Gules, as Chief of the Name and Arms of Hay."
Interesting...
of three cases I can name in this position,then,Lord Erroll appears in Debrett with the plain-name arms and description;the Duke of Buccleuch with the plain-name arms illustrated,but the grand-quartered arms with inescutcheon described;and the Duke of Fife(chief of the Carnegies since his father died) with the grand-quartered,inescutcheoned coat both illustrated and described.Perhaps he can bear the full coat and still be chief because he is so close to the Royals,or because his main title is a UK rather than Scottish peerage?
