Rumor - Heraldic Pendant

for Nicolai

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May 1, 2012, 1:26:22 PM5/1/12

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The common believe is/was
that the pendants around the helmets are nondescript and the symbols
which were used had no heraldic meaning!

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b41-heraldic-pendant-and-hanger

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b278-medieval-hanger

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b196-medieval-heraldic-pendant

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b279-medieval-hanger

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/a29-medieval-heraldic-pendant

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b245-two-medieval-harness-pendants

http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/a155-two-medieval-pendants

http://www.primaverauk.com/images/general/products/a155-b.jpg

maybe I was accidentally right,
I thought it to be logical .....???

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/291/schilling1.png/

Matt Tompkins

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May 2, 2012, 5:55:31 AM5/2/12

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On May 1, 6:26 pm, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> The common believe is/was
> that the pendants around the helmets are nondescript and the symbols
> which were used had no heraldic meaning!
>

> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b41-heraldic-pendant-...
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b278-medieval-hanger
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b196-medieval-heraldi...
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b279-medieval-hanger
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/a29-medieval-heraldic...
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/b245-two-medieval-har...
>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/antiquities/medieval/a155-two-medieval-pen...

>
> http://www.primaverauk.com/images/general/products/a155-b.jpg
>
> maybe I was accidentally right,
> I thought it to be logical .....???
>
> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/291/schilling1.png/

Harness pendants are generally thought to have been hung from horse
harnesses, not suits-of-armour harnesses. See, for example:

http://finds.org.uk/guide/torecording/horseharnesspendants

Matt Tompkins

for Nicolai

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May 2, 2012, 6:39:14 AM5/2/12

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On May 2, 2:55 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Harness pendants are generally THOUGHT TO have been hung from horse

> harnesses, not suits-of-armour harnesses. See, for example:

>

for Nicolai

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May 2, 2012, 6:53:05 AM5/2/12

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here is a better link to the "Melvius" detail...

http://www.kirche-mv.de/uploads/pics/Mevius-Wappen_02.jpg

Matt Tompkins

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May 2, 2012, 9:36:38 AM5/2/12

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On May 2, 11:39 am, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 2, 2:55 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Harness pendants are generally THOUGHT TO have been hung from horse
> > harnesses, not suits-of-armour harnesses. See, for example:
>
> > Matt Tompkins
>
> Hi Matt,
> ....I know, but not everybody out there is quite so sure about it!
> Let's say "IF" these were for horses, than
> it should be logical that the helmets were just as elaborately marked
> as the horses,
> (and not with some nondescript items)
> especially if you find the same pendants on some of the old suits of
> armour!
>
> Otherwise it wouldn't make sense !

here is a better link to the "Melvius" detail...
http://www.kirche-mv.de/uploads/pics/Mevius-Wappen_02.jpg
>

It does make sense that pendants could have been hung on other things
than horse harnesses, and if that's the case then I suppose wearing
them on a chain over a suit of armour could have been possible.

Though that Melvius monument is much later in date than the medieval
pendants in your links, isn't it? And I'm doubtful whether evidence
from present-day arrangements of suits of armour is informative about
medieval practices. Is there any contemporary medieval evidence for
pendants having been worn over or attached to armour?

Matt

for Nicolai

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May 2, 2012, 7:16:27 PM5/2/12

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Hi Matt,
the problem is (as you know) that there is not much recorded about it,
and nobody has ever seen an actual piece!

you only find the same repeated images and references

http://www.kleio.org/de/geschichte/alltag/bilder/abb016.jpg

http://up.picr.de/7314189ume.jpg

http://up.picr.de/7182997nlh.jpg

http://up.picr.de/7217997xpp.jpg

http://www.welt-der-wappen.de/Heraldik/Galerien2/galerie1426.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Wei%C3%9Fenau_Epitaph_Volland_Wappen_Volland.jpg/357px-Wei%C3%9Fenau_Epitaph_Volland_Wappen_Volland.jpg

for Nicolai

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May 2, 2012, 7:27:24 PM5/2/12

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By the way this is the oldest I could find for "now"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Show_of_blazoned_helmets_of_knights._15th_century.jpg

Derek Howard

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May 3, 2012, 7:18:22 AM5/3/12

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On May 3, 1:27 am, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> By the way this is the oldest I could find for "now"
>

> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Show_of_blazoned_h...

I think this thread is a very interesting and potentially important
theory. At the very least you make a clear prima facie case.

In the interest of balancing up continental examples with English
ones, I recall a number on view at the Royal Academy exhibition, see
the catalogue by Alexander and Binski (eds): “The Age of Chivalry. Art
in Plantagenet England, 1200-1400”, London, 1987, p 258, nos 157-161.
A couple were from elsewhere (eg no 161 from Greenwich Museum with the
arms of the Hausted family) but several of them are from the BM, which
has a few other examples also:

With a shield of arms: lion rampant with two mullets, arms of
Trublevile:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=51309&partid=1&IdNum=1900%2c0907.1

With two shields side by side on a cross-hatched ground; the right
with the arms of the earldom of Cornwall (gules a lion rampant or
within a bordure bezanté); the left with the arms of England (gules
three lions passant guardant). (Alexander & Binski 1987, no 157)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=46783&partid=1&IdNum=OA.2132

The royal arms of England (gules three lions passant guardant)
(Alexander & Binski 1987, no 158)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=43927&partid=1&IdNum=1888%2c0608.8

The arms of Cornwall (Alexander & Binski 1987, no 159):
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=50666&partid=1&IdNum=1882%2c1011.7

Perhaps the most impressive – the arms of the Valence family, Earls of
Pembroke (Barry of twelve argent and azure an orle of six martlets
gules) (Alexander & Binski 1987, no 163):
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=46881&partid=1&IdNum=1947%2c1007.1

Engraved with swan, neck encircled with crown, collar of S's in beak:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=50512&partid=1&IdNum=1882%2c1011.22

Various found in Italy:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=46140&partid=1&IdNum=1859%2c1013.2

With the arms of England:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=3139765&partid=1&IdNum=1985%2c1101.50

This one has an interesting knight fighting (which may suggest that it
is armour harness related rather than horse harness):
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=41047&partid=1&IdNum=OA.1373

There are not too many examples of illustrations of pendants around
early helms - the time when knights would have also borne shields and
cloth coats of arms as identification, but the form of helm most
commonly associated with pendants occurs when there is a shift to full
body armour often illustrated without an heraldic cloth coat. The idea
of the pendants being an early version of the dog tag is quite
appealing. I have not seen it treated by the standard heraldic authors
and it has not been considered by museum curators.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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May 3, 2012, 7:54:15 AM5/3/12

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On May 3, 1:18 pm, Derek Howard <dhow...@skynet.be> wrote:
<snip>

>I recall a number on view at the Royal Academy exhibition, see
> the catalogue by Alexander and Binski (eds): “The Age of Chivalry. Art
> in Plantagenet England, 1200-1400”, London, 1987, p 258, nos 157-161.

<snip>
Correction: pp 258-9, nos 157-164.

No 162 came from the Wiltshire Heritage Museum, Devizes which has
others also:

This one with enamelled heraldic designs in the shape of St Andrew's
cross ((Alexander & Binski 1987, no 162):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1984.94}

With red chequered shield for de Vere, Earl of Oxford:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1984.36.1}

With a lion on a shield:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1980.90.1}

Gules a chevron between three stars Or:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1986.246}

Gules a cross between four lions Or:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1988.98}

Lion passant (no shield):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1989.253}

A pendant of the arms of de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1992.8}

With the arms of Harcourt or Mauduit:
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/index.asp?page=item&mwsquery={Identity%20number}={DZSWS:1994.120}

There are of course many other pendants including in this collection
which, not being heraldic, do not appear to necessarily have been
helmet pendants. However, just as knights and others used non-heraldic
rings, so they may have used non-heraldic pendants for the same
purpose of identification of the individual or his loyalty.

Perhaps someone should assemble a major Europe wide catalogue just of
these items.

Derek Howard

for Nicolai

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May 3, 2012, 11:19:23 AM5/3/12

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Thank you Derek,

these are very interesting finds, and yes...somebody should create a
catalog!!!!

Klaas Padberg Evenboer, just found a complete harness,
(with the arms of "Württemberg")
so some of them definitely can be assigned to a horse harness,
but the others don't fit into this scheme, possibly a
misidentification
of two very similar items!

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/152/85182905.jpg/

Derek Howard

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May 3, 2012, 10:57:51 AM5/3/12

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On May 3, 1:54 pm, Derek Howard <dhow...@skynet.be> wrote:
<snip>

As the links from the Wiltshire Heritage Museum data base seem to
break awkwardly, I will repeat with direct illustration URLs instead
pasted in the for convenience -

With enamelled heraldic designs in the shape of St Andrew's cross
(Alexander & Binski 1987, no 162) (Accession number: DZSWS:1984.94):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/500/M75.jpg

With red chequered shield for de Vere, Earl of Oxford (Accession
number: DZSWS:1984.36.1):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M80.jpg

With a lion on a shield (Accession number: DZSWS:1980.90.1):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M79.jpg

Gules a chevron between three stars Or (Accession number: DZSWS:
1986.246):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M78.jpg

Gules a cross between four lions Or (Accession number: DZSWS:1988.98):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M77.jpg

Lion passant (no shield) (Accession number: DZSWS:1989.253)
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/1989.253.jpg

Pendant of the arms of de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex (Accession
number: DZSWS:1992.8)
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M76.jpg

With the arms of Harcourt or Mauduit (Accession number: DZSWS:
1994.120):
http://www.wiltshireheritagecollections.org.uk/images/285/M81.jpg

There must be many more such museum collections.

Derek Howard

Joseph McMillan

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May 3, 2012, 11:40:43 AM5/3/12

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On May 3, 7:18 am, Derek Howard <dhow...@skynet.be> wrote:
>
> There are not too many examples of illustrations of pendants around
> early helms - the time when knights would have also borne shields and
> cloth coats of arms as identification, but the form of helm most
> commonly associated with pendants occurs when there is a shift to full
> body armour often illustrated without an heraldic cloth coat. The idea
> of the pendants being an early version of the dog tag is quite
> appealing. I have not seen it treated by the standard heraldic authors
> and it has not been considered by museum curators.
>

I dimly recall having read somewhere (how's that for vague?) that helm
pendants originated as badges of membership in German tournament
societies. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Joseph McMillan

for Nicolai

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May 3, 2012, 12:10:46 PM5/3/12

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On May 3, 8:40 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does that ring a bell with anyone?
> Joseph McMillan

Yes yes, Joseph,

but as with so many things, ;)
the Germans can't agree on it's use or heraldic meaning!
(maybe because nobody has found (or wasn't aware that they did) any
such pendant???)

Quote
"""Der Gebrauch und seine heraldische Deutung sind umstritten,..."""

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halskleinod

in contradiction, why do you find so many in Great Britain,
hardly any (as of now) in Continental Europe!

There are just as many Metal-Detectors walking the woods as in Great
Britain!

for Nicolai

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May 4, 2012, 8:02:59 AM5/4/12

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a few more found in France...but rare!!!

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/452800shsjb3860s1jpg.jpg

http://www.la-detection.com/dp/images2/90575R0.jpg

http://1.2.3.11/bmi/www.la-detection.com/dp/images2/90575R6.jpg

for Nicolai

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May 4, 2012, 11:41:00 AM5/4/12

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possibly the people in Great Britain are more organized about their
finds!

;)

http://finds.org.uk/images/nbales/medium/nmd%20aug%2006%2003.jpg

http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/createdby/201/createdAfter/2006-01-01/createdBefore/2006-12-31/page/28

for Nicolai

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May 5, 2012, 5:20:02 AM5/5/12

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just in case some missed it,
under the keyword PENDANT, see my last link,

http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/objecttype/pendant/page/1

you'll find many more medieval heraldic pendants!

Derek Howard

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May 6, 2012, 2:05:02 PM5/6/12

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Unfortunately, I am having some difficulty enlarging this image enough
to see the detail in the above image. Obviously there are horse
harness brasses but there are also such a plethora of armorial
pendants that one has to ask whether they are all from horse harnesses
- in which case we should surely also find illustrations of them
somewhere but I have yet to notice any.

The other consideration is that such evidence as the illustration you
linked earlier on May 3, 1:27 am
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Show_of_blazoned_helmets_of_knights._15th_century.jpg
compellingly shows clearly armorial pendants round the helm necks. We
should find archaeological evidence of these devices if they were used
widely. Where is such evidence if it is not the pendants we have
unearthed in this thread?
Incidentally, the Wiki image is from Conrad Grunenberg Roll of Arms,
1483, p 237 - an enlargeable black and white image is at:
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00035320/image_237
The helms being brought in in the foreground do not have their
pendants on whereas those already installed are shown with the
armorial pendants in place. This armorial does not show any pendants
around helms in the rest of the volume so they presumably refer
specifically to the tournament use. I have not yet had time to see if
the badges correspond to the arms associated with crests elsewhere in
the armorial.Does anyone know if Michel Popoff or Michel Pastoureau
discuss this in their edition?

Derek Howard

for Nicolai

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May 6, 2012, 3:37:56 PM5/6/12

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Sadly Klaas couldn't provide a picture with a higher resolution
but he had one close up!
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/000znj.jpg/

As for the use of pendants with arms,
one can only hope that the pendant of
Caspar - Kaspar von Uchtenhagen (+- 1480) and which disappeared in
1945,
will be found one of these days!

http://vintageprintable.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Portrait-Painting-Death-Caspar-of-Uchtenhagen-in-a-coffin.1.jpg

the upper pendant depicted the Arms of Uchtenhagen!

here the German note:

"""Auf dem Medaillon befindet sich das Wappen derer von Uchtenhagens.
Nach der Öffnung der Gruft (1820) wurden Münze und Medaillon im
Oderlandmuseum aufbewahrt. Seit 1945 sind beide nicht mehr
auffindbar."""

_______________________________________________________________________

Yes it would be interesting to know if
(Michel Popoff or Michel Pastoureau) had written about it!

for Nicolai

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May 6, 2012, 3:53:19 PM5/6/12

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CORRECTION,

this "little" CASPAR VON UCHTENHAGEN passed away on April. 8. 1 6 0 3

for Nicolai

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May 6, 2012, 6:17:01 PM5/6/12

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...and yes, only a portion of the pendants you and I found fit
the horse harness scheme!!!!
;)

for Nicolai

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May 6, 2012, 6:33:18 PM5/6/12

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....somehow I have missed this!!!!!!

QUOTE:

"There is, however, a written testimony on Geoffroy;'s arms, although
it is not contemporary. The monk Jean de Marmoutier, in his chronicle
Historia Gaufredi ducis Normannorum et comitis Andegavorum (published
in 1913) describes the ceremony during which Geoffroy was knighted by
his father-in-law Henry I of England, upon the marriage with Henry's
daughter Matilda (1102-69), in 1127. He mentions that
H e n r y p l a c e d a s h i e l d a b o u t G e o f f r o y's
n e c k:
"clipeus, leunculos aureos ymaginarios habens, collo ejus
suspenditur." But this chronicle was compiled around 1170-75, and it
is not sure that Geoffroy used those armorial bearings."

;)

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/le-mans.htm

for Nicolai

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May 6, 2012, 6:55:34 PM5/6/12

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well Jean wasn't sooo far off of being a contemporary!

http://www.cambridge.org/aus/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781108018296

Joseph McMillan

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May 8, 2012, 8:29:56 AM5/8/12

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On May 3, 12:10 pm, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 3, 8:40 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does that ring a bell with anyone?
>
> > Joseph McMillan
>
> Yes yes, Joseph,
>
> but as with so many things, ;)
> the Germans can't agree on it's use or heraldic meaning!
> (maybe because nobody has found (or wasn't aware that they did) any
> such pendant???)
>

I don't know whether anyone has found any or not, but "Der Herold's"
Handbuch der Heraldik/Wappenfibel states flatly that this is what the
little medallions depicted on helmets originally were. Presumably
there's some research on the subject out there.

>
> in contradiction, why do you find so many in Great Britain,
> hardly any (as of now) in Continental Europe!
>
> There are just as many Metal-Detectors walking the woods as in Great
> Britain!

One can't disprove the theory that the Halskleinode depicted in German
rolls of arms are tournament society medallions by simply assuming
that the heraldic pendants found in the woods in the UK and France are
Halskleinode.

If the items found in the UK and France are in fact from horse
harness, as generally believed, their absence from woods in Germany
only implies that hanging little heraldic pennants on horse harness
was not the custom in Germany.

Conversely, if the pendants found in the UK and France were in fact
Halskleinode, wouldn't we expect them to be depicted on medieval or
renaissance English and French rolls of arms and paintings of knights
in armor? Are they?

Joseph McMillan

for Nicolai

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May 8, 2012, 10:19:13 AM5/8/12

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On May 8, 5:29 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know whether anyone has found any or not,

Hi Joseph,
a clear, No to this question,

...they would have rubbed it in my face by now!

> If the items found in the UK and France are in fact from horse
> harness, as generally believed, their absence from woods in Germany
> only implies that hanging little heraldic pennants on horse harness
> was not the custom in Germany.

"""They are really much more organized in the UK and catalog their
items,
maybe its' due to being illegal in Germany"""

> Conversely, if the pendants found in the UK and France were in fact
> Halskleinode, wouldn't we expect them to be depicted on medieval or
> renaissance English and French rolls of arms and paintings of knights
> in armor? Are they?
>
> Joseph McMillan

Nor have I seen any medieval paintings or drawings of horses with
heraldic pendants!
?
Are there any?

Supposedly the "Halskleinod" was a more detailed custom in France,
with three grades,
no one has seen one, and I found only 3-4 similar objects!

Francois R. Velde, do you have anything on that, and from what time
period,
maybe you could share it with us?

For now, at least for me,
it is the Heraldic Loch Ness,
or...possibly...as I mentioned earlier,
two different but yet very similar items are wrongly assigned to one
and the same thing!
???

Message has been deleted

for Nicolai

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May 8, 2012, 11:13:41 AM5/8/12

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repeated post... with hopefully better links?!
___________________________________________

...also a custom in continental Europe,
the shield on the horses head,
like this double headed eagle..

http://www.jugendheim-gersbach.de/Ruestung-Brustharnisch-Harnisch-Krebs-Panzer-Panzerung-Ritter-Pferd-5.jpg

or
http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/bilder_videos/museen/wien_helmschmied/images/img_1687.jpg

never depicted in any drawing!
...also this style of helm,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Roggendorf_Freiherren_Wappen_%28Duerer%29.jpg/431px-Roggendorf_Freiherren_Wappen_%28Duerer%29.jpg

depicted in many drawings,
has anybody seen one in reality!?
(I have seen only one, age unknown)

for Nicolai

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May 8, 2012, 11:02:13 AM5/8/12

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...also a custom in continental Europe,
the shield on the horses head,

like this double headed eagle..

http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.jugendheim-gersbach.de/Ruestung-Brustharnisch-...

or

http://www.hammaborg.de/bilder/bilder_videos/museen/wien_helmschmied/...

never depicted in any drawing!

...also this style of helm,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Roggendorf_F...

depicted in many drawings,

has anybody seen a example in reality!?

for Nicolai

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May 9, 2012, 7:18:57 AM5/9/12

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hmmmm....????
http://www.mernick.org.uk/B&C/years/1301.htm

http://www.time-lines.co.uk/billy-and-charley-medieval-arm-and-key-heraldic-pendant-023443-33372-0.html

are they sure, or they are actual replicas....of something ????

Derek Howard

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Feb 21, 2013, 9:41:31 AM2/21/13

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On Tuesday, May 8, 2012 2:29:56 PM UTC+2, Joseph McMillan wrote:
> On May 3, 12:10 pm, for Nicolai <imagemakers...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On May 3, 8:40 am, Joseph McMillan <mcmillan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Does that ring a bell with anyone?

> If the items found in the UK and France are in fact from horse
> harness, as generally believed, their absence from woods in Germany
> only implies that hanging little heraldic pennants on horse harness
> was not the custom in Germany.
>
> Conversely, if the pendants found in the UK and France were in fact
> Halskleinode, wouldn't we expect them to be depicted on medieval or
> renaissance English and French rolls of arms and paintings of knights
> in armor? Are they?
>
> Joseph McMillan

Reviving an old thread, I have recently come across a possibly better explanation for these armorial tags.

A recent exhibition in the Louvre, Paris relating to medieval Cyprus, contained two such heraldic shield shaped pendants (items nos 92, 93), labelled as "vervelle ou pendant de harnachement". One is of a lion rampant, the other the three lions presumably of England but with the background enamel colour missing.

"Pendant de harnachement" of course is the standard harness pendant explanation we have discussed, but a "vervelle" is described as a small armorial shield intended to be attached to the feet of falcons or to hunting dogs by their chain collars (citing V Gay: "Glossaire archaéologique du Moyen Age et de la Renaissance", t 2, 1928).

These ornaments are said to have been popular from the end of the 13th century to the 14th. The entries cite not only "The Art of Chivalry" exhibition London 1987, nos 157 & 158 which we have already mentioned earlier in the thread; but also "Catàleg de xapes de guarniment", Barcelona 1994).

See "Chypre entre Byzance et l’Occident IVe-XVIe siècle", ed Durand and Giovannoni, Louvre Paris 2012, pp 207-208.

The use for falcons and hunting dogs to me squares more easily with their numbers and distribution in that they have commonly been found in rural locations where horse harnesses or personal insignia would be unexpected but where hunting could well have been carried out. Their loss would be less readily remedied at the time by the owners. Dogs and birds could well have shed them by rough treatment or the animal being killed. The size would be bearable. We would perhaps expect horse harnesses to bear larger emblems as in the later horse brasses, and personal emblems not be be lost and scattered.

I have yet to see Gay to establish if he cites any basis for his glossary entry but it makes perhaps more sense than our previous ideas.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Feb 21, 2013, 3:08:00 PM2/21/13

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On Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:41:31 PM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:
> I have yet to see Gay to establish if he cites any basis for his glossary
> entry but it makes perhaps more sense than our previous ideas.

The 8th edition of "Dictionnaire de l'Académie française"
http://atilf.atilf.fr/academie.htm
defines VERVELLE as: n. f. Sorte d'anneau qu'on met au pied d'un oiseau de fauconnerie et sur lequel on grave le nom ou les armes de celui à qui l'oiseau appartient.
So such things as falcon rings bearing arms did exist.

Gay's vol.1 is on-line but unfortunately not yet vol. 2 as far as I can see. I shall have to go down to the library.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Feb 21, 2013, 3:20:15 PM2/21/13

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Unless someone in the US has greater than snippet access to the entry for vervelle at
http://books.google.be/books?id=7iFBAQAAIAAJ&q=vervelle#search_anchor

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Feb 21, 2013, 3:24:48 PM2/21/13

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On Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:08:00 PM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:

There are a number of illustrations on French web sites to be found through a Google image search for "vervelle" which show items identical in form to the "harness pendants" of England, etc., only of course with different arms. Looking at some blog sites it seems these are to be picked up on random metal detector searches in the French countryside as in England - to me consistent with hunting animal identifications.

Derek Howard

for Nicolai

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Feb 21, 2013, 7:31:08 PM2/21/13

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...that's a great find, Derek!

This would explain, why I couldn't find too many
of them in France!

Here to my question, aren't they a little too heavy for falcons, if they aren't...maybe it didn't stop with tagging horses!?

Derek Howard

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Feb 22, 2013, 2:11:07 AM2/22/13

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True. And more careful examination of the illustrations of French vervelles shows some to have a hinged attachment at the top which looks to have been riveted to something else - maybe dog collars, horse trappings or helmets - while others do not have this so might have been for birds. Falcons are faily strong birds and some can be hefty to carry. I think they would have had little problem with the tags. We know they can cope with bells. They were probably multi-purpose tags but just seem a little on the small side for horses.

A recent press announcement refers to one found in Scotland though there is debate over whether the finder has the identification correct:
<http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/pendant-of-noble-killed-by-robert-bruce-found-in-field-1-2801000>

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Jul 16, 2013, 5:54:07 AM7/16/13

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On Friday, February 22, 2013 8:11:07 AM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:
> True. And more careful examination of the illustrations of French vervelles shows some to have a hinged attachment at the top which looks to have been riveted to something else - maybe dog collars, horse trappings or helmets - while others do not have this so might have been for birds. Falcons are faily strong birds and some can be hefty to carry. I think they would have had little problem with the tags. We know they can cope with bells. They were probably multi-purpose tags but just seem a little on the small side for horses.
>
> A recent press announcement refers to one found in Scotland though there is debate over whether the finder has the identification correct:
>
> <http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/pendant-of-noble-killed-by-robert-bruce-found-in-field-1-2801000>

From "Archaeology" <archaeology.org> :
COUNTY CORK, IRELAND — Conservation of a piece of leather retrieved from a well located at Caherduggan Castle has shown that it is an intact breast strap from a horse’s harness. Called a peytrel, the fitting, which dates to the thirteenth or fourteenth century, is covered in hinged, gilded mounts and pendants decorated with heraldic symbols. There are buckles at either end. “Post-excavation analysis has revealed it is the only intact example ever found in Britain or Ireland and it may have belonged to a medieval knight or one of his retainers or retinue. It certainly belonged to someone important in the medieval period. This is a hugely significant find in Ireland,” said archaeologist Damian Shields. Other finds from the well include bone gaming dice and a woman’s shoe.
<http://www.archaeology.org/news/1074-130712-ireland-peytrel-leather-horse-harness/1074-130712-ireland-peytrel-leather-horse-harness>

And from the Irish Examiner:

Unique medieval harness found at Cork castle
Wednesday, July 10, 2013
A unique medieval harness find has been unearthed at excavations at a Cork castle.

By Donal Hickey
The 13th-14th century leather harness, which went around a horse’s chest and was attached to the saddle, is covered in gilt, copper-alloy shields, and boasts heraldic symbols.

It may have belonged to a medieval knight and is the only intact example ever found in Britain or Ireland.

The treasure trove of artefacts includes scores of pieces uncovered around the castle at Caherduggan, near Doneraile, Co Cork.

The finds were made by archaeological consultants commissioned by Cork County Council.

The excavations were completed in 2011 and 2012 as part of a project to remove a bend on the main Mallow-Doneraile road.

Rubicon Heritage, Ireland’s largest archaeological consultancy based in Midleton, described the site as a “most remarkable” castle.

Archaeologist Damian Shields yesterday said they had discovered a number of extremely interesting finds, the most important of which came from a medieval water well.

Among the items found were a bone dice for gaming, a medieval woman’s shoe, and one of the most important finds they had ever uncovered — the complete 13th/14th century leather horse harness known as a peytrel.

“Post-excavation analysis has revealed it is the only intact example ever found in Britain or Ireland and it may have belonged to a medieval knight or one of his retainers or retinue. It was certainly belong to someone important in the medieval period. This is a hugely significant find in Ireland.”

The heraldic shields also feature symbols of a rampant lion on its hind legs.

The archaeologists have contacted the chief herald’s office to try to determine which herald it might be. The castle belonged at different periods to the Barry, Roche and Grove families.

The excavations were carried out on an outer ditch of the castle and the water well. Evidence of a fairly large, pre-historic settlement was also found, including a marketplace at a cross roads and a fort.

The artefacts were sent to the National Museum.

Mr Shields said more excavation was needed at the castle. “I would love to go back to have another look at this site,” he said.
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
<http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/unique-medieval-harness-found-at-cork-castle-236386.html>

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Aug 25, 2013, 6:30:04 AM8/25/13

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On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:54:07 AM UTC+2, Derek Howard wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 8:11:07 AM UTC+1, Derek Howard wrote:
>
> > True. And more careful examination of the illustrations of French vervelles
> > shows some to have a hinged attachment at the top which looks to have been
> > riveted to something else - maybe dog collars, horse trappings or helmets -
> > while others do not have this so might have been for birds. Falcons are

> > fairly strong birds and some can be hefty to carry. I think they would have

Following the above report on the finding of an heraldic horse harness, the BBC reports today the find of a "rare" 16th Century "royal" silver gilt vervel (I the nature of vervels discussed earlier in the thread). This one was found in a Norfolk field near Colney, on the outskirts of Norwich, by a metal detector enthusiast.

The 23mm (0.9in) ring, found in December, was worn by a bird of prey around its foot to identify its owner.

The vervel carries the royal arms on one face with the arms of Brandon on the other. Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk, 1st Viscount Lisle KG (c.1484–1545) was the son of Sir William Brandon and Elizabeth Bruyn. Through his third wife, Mary Tudor, he was brother-in-law to Henry VIII. It could have been dropped on any of those Brandon's visits around 1520 to the 1540s.

The vervel is now at the British Museum for a report to be prepared for an inquest by the Norfolk coroner. The Norwich Castle Museum already has a larger collection of hawking vervels than the British Museum and will be looking to acquire the Brandon piece, which weighs 202g (7oz), if it is declared treasure.

For the arms displayed see the pictures at
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-23795657>

This vervel at least is of a distinctly different structure to the horse harness items discussed above, even if, as we discussed earlier, vervels identified as such in France look pretty much the same as the horse brasses. Have there been instances in France of misidenitification?

Several of the Norwich collection of vervels appear in the records of teh Portable Antiquities Scheme. The heraldic ones appear to all have a shield attached directly to the leg ring. Examples are
The Talbot vervel at
<http://finds.org.uk/blogs/themarches/2011/03/18/the-talbot-vervel/>
An heraldic vervel with a dragon shield or crest at
<http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/522936>
and spectacularly the hawking vervel held at Norwich stated to be of Henry Frederick, Prince of Wales, see
<http://www.artfund.org/what-we-do/art-weve-helped-buy/artwork/12371/hawking-vervel-of-henry-frederick-prince-of-wales>
At the BM there are a number of similar heraldic vervels being shields attached to rings
<http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/search.aspx?searchText=vervel>
Most of the other vervels under the PAS are simple inscribed rings.

Derek Howard

Derek Howard

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Aug 25, 2013, 6:47:19 AM8/25/13

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On Sunday, August 25, 2013 12:30:04 PM UTC+2, Derek Howard wrote:
> Following the above report on the finding of an heraldic horse harness, the BBC reports today the find of a "rare" 16th Century "royal" silver gilt vervel (I the nature of vervels discussed earlier in the thread). This one was found in a Norfolk field near Colney, on the outskirts of Norwich, by a metal detector enthusiast.
>
> The 23mm (0.9in) ring, found in December, was worn by a bird of prey around its foot to identify its owner.
>
> The vervel carries the royal arms on one face with the arms of Brandon on the other. Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk, 1st Viscount Lisle KG (c.1484–1545) was the son of Sir William Brandon and Elizabeth Bruyn. Through his third wife, Mary Tudor, he was brother-in-law to Henry VIII. It could have been dropped on any of those Brandon's visits around 1520 to the 1540s.
>
> The vervel is now at the British Museum for a report to be prepared for an inquest by the Norfolk coroner. The Norwich Castle Museum already has a larger collection of hawking vervels than the British Museum and will be looking to acquire the Brandon piece, which weighs 202g (7oz), if it is declared treasure.
>
> For the arms displayed see the pictures at
> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-23795657>
>
> This vervel at least is of a distinctly different structure to the horse harness items discussed above, even if, as we discussed earlier, vervels identified as such in France look pretty much the same as the horse brasses. Have there been instances in France of misidenitification?
>
> Several of the Norwich collection of vervels appear in the records of teh Portable Antiquities Scheme. The heraldic ones appear to all have a shield attached directly to the leg ring. Examples are
> The Talbot vervel at
> <http://finds.org.uk/blogs/themarches/2011/03/18/the-talbot-vervel/>
> An heraldic vervel with a dragon shield or crest at
> <http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/522936>
> and spectacularly the hawking vervel held at Norwich stated to be of Henry Frederick, Prince of Wales, see
> <http://www.artfund.org/what-we-do/art-weve-helped-buy/artwork/12371/hawking-vervel-of-henry-frederick-prince-of-wales>
> At the BM there are a number of similar heraldic vervels being shields attached to rings
> <http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/search.aspx?searchText=vervel>
>
> Most of the other vervels under the PAS are simple inscribed rings.

The Norwich Museum data base throws up only 4 vervels, one of which is heraldic and includes the arms of the Grime family of Trimingham, Antingham and Suffield, Norfolk - Azure three cross taus Or; with a note that the owner of the object was almost certainly Thomas Gryme, lord of the manor of Antingham, whose will was proved in 1591.
<http://www.culturalmodes.norfolk.gov.uk/projects/nmaspub5.asp?page=item&itemId=NWHCM%20:%202007.174%20:%20A>

Derek Howard

for Nicolai

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Sep 8, 2013, 7:03:24 AM9/8/13

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Just came by accident across the "Cork" Harness,

but saw that you found it first... :) GREAT

Also, thank you for the great articles on the "Vervels" !!!!!!

______________________________________________________________
....and hopefully they will find more artifacts,
that possibly will explain the "other" and larger pendants!!!!

Message has been deleted

for Nicolai

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Sep 8, 2013, 7:21:10 AM9/8/13

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Hi Derek,

one more possible explanation could be those seals
http://finds.org.uk/images/acooper/medium/pas_1535_seal_matrix.jpg

if you compare to...

Univ. Tuebingen (Stiftskirche)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5915/1tuehandy753.jpg

sorry it was very dark, took a quick shot with the cell phone!

for Nicolai

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Sep 12, 2013, 6:03:29 AM9/12/13

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There are many more and yes, they come in different shapes,
also "round"....!

The early seals were all worn as pendants!!!

just a few out of many:

http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/q/Seal#

- Record ID: NMS-DF9D95
- Record ID: NMS-380CF0
- Record ID: FAKL-3D1AF1
- Record ID: NMS-366C46

... only later, the seals became a "Handle"
see item Nr.
- Record ID: NMS-4F6121
http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/q/Seal/page/3

for Nicolai

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Sep 12, 2013, 6:09:40 AM9/12/13

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one more great example..

- Record ID: BH-EA9CB7

http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/q/Seal/page/4

for Nicolai

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Sep 13, 2013, 7:33:55 AM9/13/13

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..are they sure,??? that these-this "Seal-Box" are-is "Roman" ???
items like the one below (and others), make me question this...

http://finds.org.uk/database/search/results/q/Seal/objectType/SEAL+BOX/page/2

"""
Record ID: KENT-28A395
Object type: SEAL BOX
Broad period: ROMAN
County: Kent
Workflow stage: Awaiting validation Find waiting to be validated
An incomplete cast copper alloy Roman seal box lid with blue enamel inlay. The lid is lozenge shape in plan and sub rectangular in section, with a recessed reverse. A fragment of the subtriangular hinge remains in the integral loop at the top of the lid, but has corroded onto the body of the lid, and is no longer movable. The front is decorated with a raised cross-hatched grid, resulting in 24 recessed cells, half of which are filled with blue enamel. The inside of the lid is plain. A number of lozengiform seal box lids have been recorded on this database, and they generally…
Created on: Tuesday 15th November 2011
Last updated: Wednesday 16th November 2011"""

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Feb 15, 2014, 6:03:11 PM2/15/14

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