Balthus aka Balthazar Klossowski de Rola
fatso
provenance, allegedly aristocratic
of polish origin, of famous painter of that name. The chap has been
celebrated by such giants of french
culture as poet Rilke and writer and gaullist politician, Andre Malroix.
He has had "tout Paris" at his feet in the
60-ties of last Century. I think due to pedophile nature of his work
which I was able to see recently for the first
time in my life, in Chicago Museum of Art.
The thing is, Balthus was quite proud of his Coat of Arms which he
displayed on kimonos and everywhere.
I have checked with my polish Almanach:
the CoA Rola does exist and is ascribed to polish noble family
Klossowski, nobilitated in 1560.
And here the mystery deepens. Although the polish nobility has saved the
jewish race from extinction no way, any
representative of them would be admitted to the ranks of Szlachta, in
those times at least. For make no mistake: Balthus was
a proper Ashenazim Jew, witness the death of his son Fumio, aged 2, from
typical and only jewish hereditary disease
named after Tay-Sachs. As the Klossowski family originated in East
Prussia, the question remains: at which stage
the genetic continuity has been broken here.
CoA Rola is simple but beautiful: in the red shield a white rose bud,
something akin to Yorkshire rose. Surrounded by
3 sickles placed like the aircraft propeller, implements to shear the
crops in the field. The word Rola means Arable Land
in polish language so quite aproppiate.
fatso
Turenne
in any way to the noble Klossowskis. It's a bit like the British ex-
Home Secretary Michael Howard, who is Jewish, calling himself 'Michael
Howard de Norfolk'. Just because Balthus' surname was Klossowski
doesn't mean he has any right to the Szlachta arms of Rola.
Richard Lichten
fatso
produced by Balthus
constitute a particularly "noble" genre unless Marquis de Sade and
consortes to be included here as well.
Incidentally the last picture is the one I have seen with my own eyes in
Chicago Museum of Arts.
http://www.sauer-thompson.com/junkforcode/archives/Balthuserotic2.jpg
http://www.studio-international.co.uk/studio-images/balthus_alice_355.jpg
http://sauer-thompson.com/conversations/archives/Balthus5.jpg
fatso
fatso
produced by Balthus
Turenne
> DO NOT constitute a particularly "noble" genre unless Marquis de Sade....
That makes more sense!
RL
Greg
Are you then saying that this man is faking his connection? The
eastern Jews did a great deal of migrating, the Ashenazi being of
German origin if I'm not mistaken, and it is possible that that the
race slipped into the lineage. Of course it is also possible that
this man has just assumed these arms: I've seen them, and they are
quite striking.
What thesis are you offering?
fatso
>
> Are you then saying that this man is faking his connection? The
> eastern Jews did a great deal of migrating, the Ashenazi being of
> German origin if I'm not mistaken, and it is possible that that the
> race slipped into the lineage. Of course it is also possible that
> this man has just assumed these arms: I've seen them, and they are
> quite striking.
>
> What thesis are you offering?
>
From my research on-line the painter appearead to be genuinely
surprised, when confronted
with facts by interviewing person. My thesis therefore is a charitable
one: he is not a fake. He
does carry the noble lineage of Klossowski herbu Rola family. The
genetic lineage has been broken
by some enterprising Jew in the past, possibly many generation ago and
the said Ashkenazi,
i.e.Khazar, has improved the degenerate aristocratic stock by exchanging
a packet of sperm
with the lady of that name. Khazars are the most talented peoples on
Earth, vide a number
of Nobel Prizes awarded to them in the past.
Genetics and genealogy are two separate things.
Just an example, a most recent one: Prince Czartoryski from Canada has
agreed bravely to undergo
genetic testing. A brave decision as his predecessor on maternal side
200 yrs ago, Izabella nee Fleming
Czartoryski, used to practice a free love. Ugly rumours abounded that
the Noble Prince might be a descendant
of one Repnin, ambassador of Catherine the Great to Warsaw. If it were
to be confirmed the facts would
stand the Prince in the good stead, should he ever wish to prostitute
himself to the Russians. Repnin was a true
Rurikid, a descendant of Rurik, founder of Russia. But the problem
arises: Prince Czartoryski by virtue of History
does have a first claim to the Throne of Poland. After all his
forefather was uncrowned King while in exile in Paris
150 yrs ago. Poles would never accept a Russian on the Throne, after all
they have rebelled against so many in the past.
And now the result: Prince Czartoryski does appear to be descended from
the french Duc de Lauson(and many other names,
a marshal prince of France). The right choice for the bedchamber of
amorous Isabella just over 200 yrs ago. The donor of
a sperm packet, guillotined later in Paris during a French Revolution,
does enhance the standing of the noble modern Prince
Czartoryski in the eyes of the Poles. The sooner he grabs that Throne
the better as I cannot stand the paranoid dwarf
masquerading as president of that country today.
fatso
Turenne
>Prince Czartoryski by virtue of History does have a first claim to the Throne of Poland.
No he hasn't. There has never been a Czartoryski King of Poland, and
there is no reason why there should ever be one.
>Prince Czartoryski does appear to be descended from the french Duc de Lauson
Evidence please; anyway I think you mean the Duc de Lauzun...
RL
fatso
I used to subscribe to specialist group involved with genetics of
nobility, hence information.
Have left it as it was too polish for me(expletives deleted)
f
fatso
o yes, Prince Czartoryski, formerly the Foreing Affairs Minister to the
Tsar, Alexander, has defected
to the cause of Poland and has resided in Hotel Lambert in Paris. He was
regarded as an UNCROWNED
king and lauded as such by Chopin and Mickiewicz, the former the
romantic music composer, the latter
a poet of immense influence in Poland even today, a kind of Yates and
Garibaldi combined.
The rest of polish princes are a bunch of dwarves in comparison- so
Czartoryski will have to be the one.
And great-great grand-daddy the Duc de Lauzun, will do nicely. Yes, Sir.
fatso
Greg
Thanks for the explanation: I too mentioned that some that someone may
have slipped in . . .
The question I have then, is, since the man appears to be a legitimate
member of the family, why would his sprorting these arms cause you
concern?
If, on the other hand you are asserting that he carries the name only
and was not perhaps legitimized as an heir that could claim the arms,
then I can see your point perhaps, but with the modern world being
what it is, it seems that all's fair. So could perhaps narrow down
your point?
fatso
>
> The question I have then, is, since the man appears to be a legitimate
> member of the family, why would his sprorting these arms cause you
> concern?
>
I thought, initially, that our Balthus was a total fake. Now, having
read about him, I just think him
to be a genuine Klossowski de Rola, with interesting genetical makeup-
hence his many talents.
fatso
David E. Cohen
minor. Bringing it back on topic, it would have been interesting, heraldically speaking, if the
Khaganate of Khazaria had survived a few more centuries, since heraldry there would have developed
in a Jewish milieu, rather than a Christian one.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:LfTHm.26850$Ah3....@newsfe01.ams2...[edited]
fatso
> Genetic studies have shown that the Khazar component in the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews is very
> minor. Bringing it back on topic, it would have been interesting, heraldically speaking, if the
> Khaganate of Khazaria had survived a few more centuries, since heraldry there would have developed
> in a Jewish milieu, rather than a Christian one.
>
I beg to differ, Sir. I came to believe that Khazar component, as you
name it, has made Ashkenazim a chosen people, a special lot
endowed with certain superior qualities in mental faculties. I base
myself not on some jewish book from the bronze era but on physiology
of human brain. But that is the moot point, we are here to discuss the
armorials.
It so happens that I have studied at some lenght jewish armorials os
spanich origin. Have become fascinated by another puzzle, you see:
Who was the lucky owner of the set of 12 silver plates, graced with
this CoA: http://tiny.cc/NamXQ
This armorial is noted for one rare element, the Duck, symbol of
industriousness and perseverance, I believe. Besides, it is much more
complicated that my own, Ogonczyk(Powala) given for reference here:
http://tiny.cc/NamXQ
So I have looked up the people who might pride themselves more in the
above mentioned virtues then blood and gore, as my lot visibly did, and
have come across
those sephardic in origin jewish spanish armorials. No ducks here. Is it
a forbidden food for Jews(like pork, hare, blood etc)?
I came to believe eventually that it was a property of a Brasilian
Emperor POedro II, or one of his ilk, before it fell into my rapacious lap.
Any ideas?
fatso
fatso
http://tiny.cc/0bM6g
I effed it up, as usual
f
Greg
Got it. Thanks very much.
David E. Cohen
their having superior mental abilities. But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.
In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
chickens.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:HCdIm.46896$k31....@newsfe04.ams2...
fatso
> Being of Ashkenazi descent, I will refrain from commenting on either being of a chosen people, or
> their having superior mental abilities. But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
> multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.
>
> In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
> chickens.
>
>
>
As to the duck, thanks for the info. My searches through spanish, portugese,
belgian & french pages have led me nowhere. The plates themselves are
portugese antique silver. That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under
scrutiny as a suspect,
especially as he was forced into exile end of the XIXth c. for daring to
free the slaves.
He has been to England, lived in the straightened circumstances, might
have sent his flunkey
to pawn my plates. Pedro's loss is my gain- such are the ways of the world.
fatso
Turenne
>....That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under scrutiny as a suspect....
What makes you think that the arms on your plates http://tiny.cc/NamXQ
have anything to do with an Emperor of Brazil, or indeed any member of
the Portugese Royal House. Judging from the helm, the possessor of the
arms is probably a gentleman, or depending on where the arms
originate, a member of the lower nobility.
Here's an armorial of Brazilian Nobility; if you think your arms are
Brazilian you may fall lucky and find them:
http://www.sfreinobreza.com/NobAZ.htm
Richard Lichten
Turenne
martlets
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blason_fam_fr_Beauharnais.svg
Richard L
grahamm...@btinternet.com
The arms are those of Sir Reginald Duck (1453-1529) who was the
subject of the well-known ditty:
Sir Reginald Duck was down on his luck
He found a maid and asked for a tomato... etc. etc.
He was the ancestor of Admiral Sir Horatius 'Crispy Fried' Duck who
invent the famous DUCK amphibious landing craft of WW2
fatso
promising officer,
Napoleon Bonaparte used to entrust with his soiled pants? The very same
one who later, as an Empress,
would sit on a staircase of her palace and cry, because the Emperor
would say: not tonight, Josephine-
and she enjoyed good f.. every night? Oh, that would be a happy event,
unfortunately those mallards are
ugly and de-beaked. No, I must seek elsewhere.
fatso
Turenne
showing you what martlets looked like!
RL
David E. Cohen
non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise. Ethiopian Jews
look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim. It is no accident that the
traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother is
Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant. I never said there was no
Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise. I would be shocked
if that were true. I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
support this.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:zczIm.60327$y%.49115@newsfe29.ams2...
fatso
> Recent studies all show Jews, all over the world, are more closely related to each other than to
> non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise. Ethiopian Jews
> look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim. It is no accident that the
> traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother is
> Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant. I never said there was no
> Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise. I would be shocked
> if that were true. I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
> support this.
>
>
David, if I understand prof.Skorecki's research well, your lot, i.e.
Cohanim, descend from one, max. two genetic fore-fathers.
Quite understandable as the clan Cohen would be employed in the Temple
to guard fire and stay close to the offerings, a well paying
sinecure, worth holding on to.
Ashkenazim do descend from max. four putative mothers, not necessarily
born in the same time. It is those mothers who endowed
the Ashkenazi Jews with special qualities of mind and did burden them
with lethal genes of uniquely jewish diseases at the same time.
There are some, like Kestler, who believe them to be of Khazarian stock.
Fake Jews who accepted jewish religious rites in early
first Millenium after Christ but stem not from Palestine but from the
area of inter-sea, roughly the present South Osetia.
It is those Khazars, admixed into the Ashkenazim race, who have endowed
it with superior quality of mind. Nothing fake here, nothing racist.
Just a question of metabolism, extra feeding charge applied to the
sphygmomyelins of the brain. Sorry- you, Cohanim, don't have it.
I- on the other hand- could. Genetically, I am a Vareg, i.e. a Viking
who went eastwards and a historical citizen of the Grand Duchy
of Lithuania. But who is that lady, I will show below? The dark haired
polish noblewoman, ferocious catholic and a virtuoso player
of grand piano, photographed > 100 yrs ago in Kharkov, capital of
Ukraine at the time? Well it is that old bitch, my very own grandmother,
the woman who would prick the eyes out of Comrade Stalin with knitting
needle in a newspaper. I believe her to be of Khazararian stock.
So, coming back to heraldry issues, the discovery that my silver canteen
turns out to be stamped with the noble Arms of Rothschild, de Worms
or Pirbright- or some combination of them- does give me great pleasure.
For they must have been Khazars, to have achieved so much.
regards
fatso
David E. Cohen
of various genetic studies.
Several studies show that one particular mutation which I believe you are talking about and which
has been the subject of so much research, the Cohen Modal Haplotype, is not universal among either
Ashkenazi or Sephardi Kohanim, or outlying Kohanim or others claiming descent from ancient
Israelites (it varies by subgroup, but let's call it present in half), and is less common in other
Jews though more prevalent than in the world at large. So complete descent of Kohanim, who are a
small minority of all Jews, from one or two forefathers doesn't make sense from the point of view of
these studies. The marker is also present, in significant amounts, in a few groups which have
absolutely no historical connection to the ancient Israelites. What all this could possibly have to
do with the Khazar component of Ashkenazi Jewry escapes me.
The "four mothers study" suggests that four women, who may well have lived many centuries apart, and
could have lived in four different places (including the Middle East or other places far from
Khazaria), may have been the ancestors of somewhat less than half of modern Ashkenazi Jews. There
is no indication of one or more of these women having been Khazarian or not. Ashkenazi Jews, like
any somewhat isolated endogamous group, tend to have certain inherited diseases which are more
prevalent within the group. The presence of such diseases neither supports nor refutes your
position. Koestler's work, which I have read, has been pretty thoroughly discredited by more recent
and rigorous scholarship.
Calling those Khazars who converted (a significant number, but likely a minority--the Khaganate of
Khazaria was remarkably, almost singularly tolerant for its time in matters of religion) to Judaism
'fake Jews' is both disrespectful to them, and silly. They are converts, no more and no less, just
like converts to any other religion. By the way, most Cohens are Kohanim, but not all are, so "your
lot" and "you Cohanim" presumes. In addition, nothing prevented Kohanim from marrying the
descendants of those four mothers mentioned earlier, so if they were Khazarian women, many people
claiming to be Kohanim would certainly be among their descendants. As to your personal descent from
Khazars who intermarried with Varangians, good luck trying to prove it either way, but if it pleases
you to think so, it's not hurting anyone.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:y2RIm.1454$9M4...@newsfe03.ams2...
fatso
Thank you for your thoughts but we fish in murky waters. Still, we know
so much more then only 5 yrs ago.
You will not deny, I hope, that both Stalin and Hitler were, in a way,
men of genius? Both dilletantes, leading the
huge armies, both evil and cunning. It transpires that Stalin's
genotype as tested by his grandson is of a south ossetian
or khazarian type.
Hitler's we do not know unless the Kremlin does release the remnats of
his skull for testing. Pity his Mum,
Miss Hicklegruber, did not leave the testimony as to who was her happy
impregnator. As a Jew you should know the ugly
rumours, around since before the II W.W.. Suffice to say that she did
her servitude in the house of austrian Rothschilds.
Somebody did pay young Adolf's alimonies and it was not that ugly old
and pompous Mr Hitler, late husband of his Mum.
You get my drift? Look at that conjoint coat of arms carefully, again.
If it is what I think it is then I think I am a rich man.
Little clue: when the polish country landowner would "spoil" the kitchen
girl and it was obvious to all and sundry, he would
send her back to her hovel, with cow on a string in tow. Why not to
give the girl in Salzburg or Lintz or wherever, a set of
spoons and forks in solid silver, hanging about the house, sort of
silver farewell handshake or a token of a bugger off?
Being a son of such a woman I would be cross for the rest of my life.
fatso
David E. Cohen
the Alans, and speak a language related to Farsi, which isn't Turkic, and, unlike the Khazars,
neither are they.
As for Hitler, there are several thoughts, all mashed together. I don't have a clear idea of what
you are trying to say, and I am not interested enough to put in the effort to decipher it.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:Zv_Im.27087$6O1....@newsfe08.ams2...
grahamm...@btinternet.com
> Recent studies all show Jews, all over the world, are more closely related to each other than to
> non-Jews, though obviously there has been population mixing,willing and otherwise. Ethiopian Jews
> look different than Bukharan Jews, who look different than Ashkenazim. It is no accident that the
> traditional Jewish determination of whether someone is a Jew *by birth* is whether their mother is
> Jewish, the father's religion and/or ethnicity being irrelevant. I never said there was no
> Khazarian ancestry in present day Jewish populations, Ashkenazic or otherwise. I would be shocked
> if that were true. I just said it was minor, and the genetics, as well as the historical record,
> support this.
>
>
>
> > David E. Cohen wrote:
> >> Being of Ashkenazi descent, I will refrain from commenting on either being of a chosen people, or
> >> their having superior mental abilities. But I wasn't referring to any ancient text, but rather
> >> multiple recent genetic studies, as I had previously stated.
>
> >> In answer to one of your other questions, ducks, if slaughtered properly, are just as kosher as
> >> chickens.
>
> > David, look up the work of professor Skorecki of Tel-Aviv University.
>
> > As to the duck, thanks for the info. My searches through spanish, portugese,
> > belgian & french pages have led me nowhere. The plates themselves are
> > portugese antique silver. That's why Pedro the II of Brazil comes under scrutiny as a suspect,
> > especially as he was forced into exile end of the XIXth c. for daring to free the slaves.
> > He has been to England, lived in the straightened circumstances, might have sent his flunkey
> > to pawn my plates. Pedro's loss is my gain- such are the ways of the world.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
This raises an interesting conundrum. If a person can only be a Jew if
their mother is a Jew, how do you reconcile this with the central
Jewish belief that the Messiah must be a male-line descendant of King
David (as were the Exilarchs)? Presumably this means that Jews believe
that the Messiah may be a non-Jew (i.e. the King of the Jews may not
be a Jew)? Or does it mean that there may be male-line descendants of
King David (i.e. members of the Jewish royal house) who are not
accepted as Jews, if they happen to have a non-Jewish matrilineal
ancestor?
Turenne
>As for Hitler, there are several thoughts, all mashed together. I don't have a clear idea of what
>you are trying to say, and I am not interested enough to put in the effort to decipher it.
It's probably not a good idea to develop an interest...
Richard Lichten
fatso
I would agree that Jews become a bit touchy when somebody from outside of
their circle
does start to stick their nose into their convoluted affairs and religion.
Perhaps understandably so.
However, Pole becomes no less agitated in similar circumstances.
Liber Chamorum or Book of the Knaves has been written by one Walerian
Nekanda Trepka,
about 350 yrs ago. In his Opus the author exposed the various nefarious ways
by which plebs
has wormed its way into the ranks of nobility. Trepka lived in constant fear
for his life.
My talented workman has claimed the noble lineage going back to mazovian
polish Shlachta,
all the way back to 1423 ,a small village named after him even today not far
from Warsaw.
Also Coat of Arms Slepowron(pol. A Blind Crow)- the very same CoA as General
Jaruzelski's,
that of the military Coup d' Etat memory in that country about thirty years
ago. So quite a catch
and I have paid for my man to undergo genetic testing with Family Tree DNA
in USA.
The result: haplogroup J2, jewish. The mazovian Szlachta are in turmoil and
I feel like that good
man, Walerian Nekanda Trepka 350 yrs ago, wishing I could hide somewhere.
fatso
David E. Cohen
to Judaism.
Why can't the anticipated Messiah be both a male-line descendant of the House of David, and have a
Jewish mother? But can the Messiah not be Jewish? I can't tell you. While Jewish by ancestry, I
can't claim to be an expert on the Jewish faith.
>"gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk" <grahamm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:621594b1-57e2-4984...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
David E. Cohen
being imbued with superior Khazarian genes, which put it beyond the understanding of mere goyim.
"fatso" <fatso...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:tWBJm.86359$Ro6....@newsfe10.ams2...
grahamm...@btinternet.com
> Yes, very convoluted. It is the later development of the religion, due to Jewish religious scholars
> being imbued with superior Khazarian genes, which put it beyond the understanding of mere goyim.
I have that problem. Apparently, almost everything I say is beyond all
human understanding.
David E. Cohen
>"gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk" <grahamm...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:e4f17e23-715b-4825...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...